Prabhupāda: If you go high, some 25,000, fifty thousand miles up, you'll simply find in the sky nothing manifested. But if you go still higher, higher, higher, you will find some other planets existing. So the part which is nonmanifested is called avyakta, and the part which is manifested, that is called vyakta. So these two souls from Vaikuṇṭha, they are coming into this material world. So they're penetrating the nonmanifested matter. As the matter... Five elements—earth, water, fire, air, ether. And then... These are gross elements. And there are subtle elements: mind, intelligence, ego. And then spiritual. Our body is composed of three things—the spirit soul, and it is covered by subtle body: mind, intelligence ego; and there is gross body: fire, water... earth, water, fire, air, ether. So this universe, this universe is only one universe, but there are millions of universes, and they are covered with the gross and subtle elements. And penetrating that gross and subtle elements, when one comes to the sky, there are innumerable planets. The planets are seen, the suns and stars, like that. So the two souls, Jaya and Vijaya, they are coming on this earth. That is shown in this picture. Now they came as demons because they had to fight with the Supreme Lord. The devotees will not fight. The devotees are servitors, but the atheists, the demons, they are always inimical to the Personality of Godhead. That is the nature. Demonic nature means they do not believe in God. "Oh, what nonsense, God. I am God." Although he's a dog, he thinks himself, "I am God." That is demonic nature. He is being kicked every minute by the laws of nature, and still, he is superficially thinking that "I am God." God is not so cheap, but they have made to become God is very cheap.
One comes to... (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: But there is the summum bonum of that realization. That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante, jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births of this mental evolutionary process, when actually he becomes wise he becomes God conscious and surrenders to God. That is real evolution(?). That evolution will go on. But when it comes to the summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). God is cause of all causes. That is final realization. Unless one comes to that point he has not come to the perfection of evolutionary process of the mind and intelligence.
Śyāmasundara: How does our philosophy define mind and intelligence?
Prabhupāda: Mind is instrument. The mind's position is accepting and rejecting. Intellect helps the mind what to reject and what to accept. And that intelligence is of the soul. That ground of intelligence is the soul. First of all bodily concept is gross life, ordinary, like animals, they do not know except the body. Higher than bodily concept of life, the exercise of the mind, mental speculation. That mental speculation is adjusted by intelligence and that intelligence belongs to the soul. Therefore soul is the ultimate and soul is the part and parcel of God. Therefore God is the supreme. So the mental speculation or the evolution of mental exercise when it comes to the summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one realizes "God is everything," that mahātmā, that great soul is very rare. That is the statement in Bhagavad-gītā. Mahātmā means whose mind is great. The mind is great. He's not thinking ordinary things. He's thinking of greater subject matter. They are called mahātmā, broader minded, broad-minded.
Dr. Weir: This is what I've said earlier on that the whole of the...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore if one comes to God consciousness, he becomes more active.
Dr. Weir: The whole evolution, I think I may have said it before you came in, the whole evolution to the human mind, is to become more and more in conscious control.
Prabhupāda: So mind, mind, activities of mind, activities of intelligence and activities of spirit, the spiritual activities more greater than the mind's mental activities.
Śyāmasundara: The other day we were discussing Socrates. And Socrates' method was to bring the self under control by inspecting oneself, "Know thyself," and thereby be able, lead a moral life with self-respect and self-control. But Prabhupāda was saying that this is not an ordinary thing. Not many men can achieve this rational control. So by simply cultivating spirit, nourishing spiritual life, any man can control his senses.
Prabhupāda: Just like, somebody, there is a child, a child is active, but his frivolous activities, or mischievous, have to stop when he's active in taking education. You see. The same child, his energy for becoming active is transferred for taking education. He's no more acting mischievously breaking this, doing this, doing that. The activity is there. Now that is purified. Similarly, spiritual life means the spiritual activity, that is purified activity. These boys, they have given up drinking, meat-eating. That does not mean they stop eating. They're eating better things. Therefore they have given up the nonsense eating. So that is spiritual life. Spiritual life means activity purified.
Prabhupāda: So nārāyaṇa paraḥ, avyaktāt. Nārāyaṇa is transcendental to this cosmic manifestation. He's above. So the Māyāvādī philosopher, they think that "I have become now a liberated, as good as Nārāyaṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." But Bhāgavata says, "No. You are simply thinking like that. You are rascal." Bhāgavata challenges: "You are thinking that you have become now liberated, but you are a rascal." The Bhāgavata, Vyāsadeva is very learned, but he says "rascal," but in a very sweet language. (laughter). Vimukta māninaḥ. Māninaḥ: "You are contemplating." Why? Tvayy asta, ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas (SB 10.2.32). Our test is there. "I am liberated. I am Nārāyaṇa." Why? "How you call me rascal?" Yes, we have got a test: ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Tvayy asta-bhāvād. Still they have not reached the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Simply impersonal idea, and self-complacent that "I have become now Nārāyaṇa." So this kind of knowledge is aviśuddha, impure, impure knowledge, because the test is, unless one comes to the point of understanding the Personality of Godhead, the knowledge is imperfect. So they are impersonalists, and falsely thinking themselves as Nārāyaṇa. Therefore we can immediately test that "Here is a rascal." Vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. "No. We have undergone so much austerities, penances. Whole life I remain brahmacārī, then I took sannyāsa. I have followed the rules and regulations very strictly, and still I am rascal?" Yes, you are rascal. (aside:) Don't make sound. Silently. "Still I am rascal?" Yes. You are rascal. "Why?" Āruhya kṛcchreṇa: because the symptoms are there that you are a rascal.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Śyāmasundara: Isn't there also individuality and difference?
Prabhupāda: Their individuality becomes different in accordance with the development of consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: Oh. The soul before the development of consciousness...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore, when one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there is no difference. (break) Because their aim is at that time how to... (break) ...and that is nice.
Bob: But they are the same because they are flowers.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob: In that sense.
Prabhupāda: Same. That is acintya-bhedābheda philosophy. That everything is one and different simultaneously.
Bob: Now, if I may ask another question on this?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob: The soul may be, I have considered, somewhat a part of God. But my soul I do not feel, but at times I think I feel God. It's... I'm here maybe, and you may say God is here. If the soul is inside me, then should I be able to feel God inside me? Not all of God I mean, but a...
Prabhupāda: Part of God.
Śyāmasundara: Yes, one can see Kṛṣṇa on three different levels of realization. The one level is this impersonal brahma-jyotir-merging level. That is called the elementary step, the first step towards God realization. And then the second step is when one realizes that God is isolated or localized within his heart, and this is the stage the great yogis and mystics attain. They are able to control their travel and attain other certain mystic powers. And then the highest step of self-realization is when one realizes God is the supreme person and meets Him face to face and spends his eternal life in the association of God in a personal relationship. There are five different kinds of personal relationships one can have with God: as His friend, as His father or His parent, or as His servant, like that, or as His lover. So if one, if one comes to this stage of realization, that "I am part and parcel of God," that "God is a person; therefore I am a person, and I remain person eternally," then he gets fixed up in his final, original, constitutional position, relationship, and there is no more higher place to go. So... And in this relationship, he understands that "Because God is very great and I am very small, then my position is to serve God." So I engage in a personal serving relationship, with a personal serving mode. In this way I'm always satisfied. I'm always relating with God, in everything I do, serving Him with everything I have. And this is where the spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa because he engages us in serving Kṛṣṇa. Just like there may be some big man and you want to enter into his service and meet this big man, but you have no qualification. But if this big man has a friend who is also your friend, this friend can introduce you and engage you somehow in this big man's service. This is the duty of the spiritual master. He accepts a disciple to make sure and guarantee that that disciple will meet God face to face, if he follows his orders.
Prabhupāda: Now answer, question, try to understand. What he has explained, have you understood?
Impersonalist: I think so.
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is
- ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
- varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ
- svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
- saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
- (SB 1.2.13)
You may be industrial administrator, you may be engineer, you may be something else, but you make your profession perfect. And that perfection is achieved by satisfying the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your profession. Just like Arjuna. He was a soldier. He knew how to fight. So by his profession he satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted that there should be fight between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas for right cause. And Kṛṣṇa came-paritrāṇāya sādhunaṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam (BG 4.8). He had two business: to give protection to the devotees and to kill the demons. So by Kṛṣṇa's will sometimes all the demons, they come together and fight with one another and they are killed. So battle of Kurukṣetra was such a plan to bring all the demons together and engage them in fighting and kill one another. Just like in our school days, unruly boys, one boy will be asked to catch the other boy by the ear and the same boy will be asked to catch this boy by the ear and they are pulling each other. Competition of pulling the ears. So Arjuna was fighter and he helped Kṛṣṇa in this fighting activities and thus he became a great devotee. Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si: (BG 4.3) "You are My dear, very dear friend and devotee." So it is not that one becomes a devotee simply by renouncing the world and coloring the dress. But in any dress, in any capacity, one can satisfy Kṛṣṇa if His cause is served. If you apply your engineering talent in Kṛṣṇa's service. Suppose we have to construct a nice temple of Kṛṣṇa. So if you apply your talent to engineering just like in India we have got very wonderful temples, so then your engineering becomes perfect. Similarly, if some business is done, if you apply your business administrative talent... Just like we are doing some business, Spiritual Sky. That is small business but they are managing very nicely. This boy, Svarūpa Dāmodara, he is a great scientist, doctor in chemistry. He is trying to explain Kṛṣṇa through chemistry. Similarly, you can try to serve Kṛṣṇa through engineering. You can serve Kṛṣṇa by business administration. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "Everyone can serve by his own work." Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped. Everything is Kṛṣṇa. So every department can be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. And if Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, then your talent in the particular department of knowledge is perfect. Then it attains perfection. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Saṁsiddhi means perfection. And what is that perfection? That Kṛṣṇa will be pleased: "Yes, you are very good engineer." "You are very good business administrator." "You are very good chemist." So this is our philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We do not say, "This is bad. This is good." Everything is good, provided it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa's service. This is our philosophy. So as Kṛṣṇa is all-pervading, our philosophy is also all-embracing. But as soon as one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform, he must be free from sinful activities. (aside) Aiye. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa is... (aside) Jaya. Kṛṣṇa is pure, apāpa-viddham.
Prabhupāda: Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, the same. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, the same. Kṛṣṇa means Viṣṇu-tattva. So Viṣṇu-tattva has many forms. So any Viṣṇu form will do.
- rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan
- nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu
- kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo
- govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
- (Bs. 5.39)
Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu. He has got different forms, Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, many other forms, Govinda, Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa. So rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu, kṛṣṇaḥ svayam (Bs. 5.39). Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). These are the Vedic statements. And Kṛṣṇa also said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore to become wise after many, many births of struggling or cultivating knowledge, when one comes to perfection of knowledge he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. So therefore one who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, he is the most perfect man, even without knowing Kṛṣṇa. Just like gopīs. They did not know Kṛṣṇa, whether He is God or some... Simply loved Kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa is very beautiful." That's all. So their perfection is the highest. They did not try to understand what Kṛṣṇa, what is Vedānta, what is Bhagavad-gītā. At that time Bhagavad-gītā was not spoken even. Kṛṣṇa was at that time a boy. But they loved Kṛṣṇa with their heart and soul. Kṛṣṇa was their everything.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just for argument...
Prabhupāda: That means the so-called education making them all rascals and fools. That's all. The education has no value. We therefore say that you close all these universities. You are simply producing rascals and fools. That's all.
Brahmānanda: Asses.
Prabhupāda: Asses, mūḍhāḥ. Unless one comes to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we don't give any value to so-called education, advancement of knowledge. We don't give any value. Our only formula is harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no value. Immediately reject him. He has no value of his life. We are advocating Kṛṣṇa consciousness not on sentiment, on the value of life. That these men are being carried away by whims without any value of life. Let us save them. That is our mission. Just like a, a foolish person is going in, on the ocean. So it is: "Oh, why you are going that way? Where you are going? You are a madman." This is the duty.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Similarly these rascals are going to hell and we are trying to save them. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I read an article by Śrīla Prabhupāda about sometime in 1935 or 40, early in the Back to Godhead magazine. In the earlier copies, the Prabhupāda writes about the standard of morality in one article.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: It has connection, if somebody was not very important and now he has become important, so the logic is how this man can be important? This logic. That because the mother was naked in the childhood, therefore she should not put on any garment. This is nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya. We change according to the circumstances. You cannot say that this must remain like this.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is also not because of the development of consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Everything is development of consciousness. So when one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that is perfect. Consciousness is there even in the tree, but that is not developed. When you cut the tree, it feels. Even a child their consciousness is not developed. Sometimes operation in the body of a child does not require anaesthetic, because they do not feel much. Can go on surgical operation on the child's body and they will feel little. Because the consciousness is not developed.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So according to the consciousness...
Prabhupāda: Development.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When a person becomes very old, he should be very intelligent.
Prabhupāda: No no. It is a question of consciousness of the body. That does not mean when a dog becomes very old he becomes very experienced. No. Consciousness according to the body. The same theory. Because a child's body is not developed, the consciousness is also not developed. Hare Kṛṣṇa. And these rascals say that because the consciousness is not developed, he has no soul. Soul is there even within the tree. But because the consciousness is not developed, the sensation is less.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles.) Yes. So this education is wanting. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As soon as one understands that "I'll have to change my, this body; then what kind of body I'm going to get next life." That next inquiry will be. Then he is intelligent. Then he is intelligent. Just like one man is working somewhere. Now, notice is given that "From such and such date, your work will not be required." Then you become anxious to know: "Then what shall I do next." I have to work. So similarly, if a person understands that he's going to change this body... Just like I'm an old man. I'll have to change in, say, immediately, or say five years, ten years. But the notice is already there because I am old man. So it is my duty to think: "Then what body I'm going to take next?" That is intelligence. And we have to prepare for that. So that is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā: yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can prepare yourself to go the higher planetary system, where demigods live. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ. You can go to the Pitṛloka. Bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā. If you want to remain within this planetary system,... yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām. "And anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he comes to Me," Kṛṣṇa says. So why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). "If one comes to My place, he never comes back again in the material world." That is intelligence. Why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? But they have no intelligence. They're spoiling their life, simply living like cats and dogs. This is the position. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save them, that "Don't go again to the cats and dogs category; go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa." There is... Here is the possibility. Kṛṣṇa says. Why don't you take advantage of this? Kṛṣṇa says: janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ: (BG 4.9) "Anyone who tries to understand Me, Kṛṣṇa, what I am..." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, one stops his rebirth in this material form. He goes back to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are training people that "You have to take another body. So what is the use of taking...? Even if you take the body of demigod, like Brahmā, millions of years age..."
Prabhupāda: Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Then all misgivings will go away. Tato niṣṭhā. Then he becomes fixed-up. Tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ. Then attraction. Tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ athāsaktiḥ. Then he cannot leave. Āsaktiḥ. Tato bhāvaḥ. Then ecstasy. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet... These are the different stages of sādhaka, of a devotee, how to make progress. So in the beginning they're faithless. Faith is that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva... Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). When he captures this slogan, that "Simply by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, I shall be all-successful," this is the beginning of faith. Bhagavad-gītā creates this faith. But one who does not take even this faith, how he'll make progress. Progress means the progress of the same faith, up to the love of Godhead. That is perfection of faith. So these are the stages. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). These are the stages. So this institution is meant for training people from different stages, and beginning with this faith, that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta... "Simply by becoming devotee of Kṛṣṇa, my life will be perfect." This faith is the basic principle. So unless one comes to this basic principle of faith, there is no question of progress. So little faith, even. Not full faith. It develops by sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with the devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). Everything is there. If we adopt, then everyone can make his life successful. There is no doubt about it. Just like if you enter into a school, if you follow the regulative principles of the school and study, you, one day, you become M.A. Where is the difficulty? Where is the difficulty? But if from the beginning, if you have no faith, then what progress you'll make? If you, from the very beginning, if you think, "What will be, this school will do me? They're learning ABCD. What...?" (laughter) There is no faith. You may call it blind faith. But that is required.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Distribute the prasāda. Bhagavān ka prasāda. Hm. That's all. So it is a great pleasure for us. Your Holiness visits us voluntarily. Although I could not invite you, but still, you are so kind, you came. So I am doing my bit, following in the footsteps of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That's all.
Guest: It is a great service to Hindu dharma and Hindu society and humanity as well.
Prabhupāda: They are strictly following Vaiṣṇava principles. They... Whenever one comes to become my disciple, the first condition is that no illicit sex; no meat-eating, eggs, fish, nothing of the sort; no intoxication up to smoking cigarette, drinking tea and coffee; and no gambling. So they strictly follow these things. In our society, there is no tea-drinking even. We don't drink tea. So... Intoxication, pāna, chāi pāna, pāna... Pāna is intoxication.
Guest: Tāmbūla...
Prabhupāda: Tāmbūla. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhā.
Guest: (Sanskrit or Hindi: Kṛṣṇa is offered tāmbūla in the temple.)
Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa can take.
Guest: Yes. And that prasāda of Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: ...the devotees can take also...
Prabhupāda: That gentleman I talked to, he was also very intelligent. John. But this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because in the jñānīs, they are also in the third grade, so how much in the position of the bhakta? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When one gets the brahma-jñāna, brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and identifies himself, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I'm Brahman," so, prasannātmā: immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. He has nothing to do with this material world. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Then he can see everyone on the equal level. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). After being brahma-bhūta, then he can begin bhakti. This is the position of the bhaktas. The real bhaktas, śuddha-bhaktas, unalloyed bhaktas. Bhaktas, they have got three stages-kaniṣṭha, madhyama, and uttama. First, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikārī, not to remain in the lowest stage, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.
Reporter: Hm. Hm. It's a very high stage, too, each.
Prabhupāda: How long you are here, in London?
Reporter: I have been on and off for two, three years.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Reporter: And I will stay two or three more years.
Prabhupāda: So, you are family man?
Reporter: Yes, this is my wife.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say...
David Lawrence: I'm probably misunderstanding it you see.
Prabhupāda: ...it will be difficult for ordinary persons. Still, as far as possible, I have tried to explain for understanding of the ordinary people. By general reading, it is not difficult.
David Lawrence:. This is the sort of problem one comes across, whether in fact... You see, having grown up in what was really a very liberal, critical attitude...
Prabhupāda: Therefore, this portion of Kṛṣṇa's life is depicted on the Tenth Canto. Nine Cantos are devoted to understand Kṛṣṇa. So without understanding Kṛṣṇa if one tries to read the life and pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, it may be misleading.
David Lawrence: Yes, yes. I think somewhere it says...
Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata begins, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), what is the original source of creation. Not abruptly Kṛṣṇa. Then after developing all such knowledge one can understand what is Kṛṣṇa. But in the spiritual world there are activities like that. The material world is only perverted reflection of these activities of the spiritual world. Perverted reflections. It is reflection, but perverted. Therefore, it is difficult. Everything is there. Basic principle that Kṛṣṇa loved the gopīs... Gopīs were young girls, Kṛṣṇa was young boy, But the same love between young boy and girl here is lust. Therefore, it is perverted. The reflection is there, but it is not love, it is lust.
David Lawrence: Yes, that's the difference.
Prabhupāda: And from my body there is relationship with my wife, with my children, therefore they are my own men. There are hundreds and thousands of women, but one woman who has got bodily connection, she's my wife. I have to do so many things for her. Similarly children, the bodily connection. The whole material civilization, nationalism, socialism, this ism, that ism, everything based on this bodily concept of life. But one who is in bodily concept of life, he is no better than cows and asses. So in the human form of life, because of the developed consciousness, there is inquiry, what I am. What I am. Am I this body or I'm something else other than this body? This is natural inquiry, and the Vedānta-sūtra begins from this inquiry. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. In the animal concept of life the inquiry is where is my food, where is my shelter, where is my sex, where is my defense. These inquiries. But when one comes to the human form of body, the inquiry should be, at least, that what I am. If I study myself, I think, if I take this finger, am I this finger? The answer will be no. It is my finger. So my eyes, my head, everything "mine." Then where is "I"? Unless this inquiry comes into the living form of life, human form of life, he's not a human being. He's animal because animals never inquire. He's satisfied. A dog is satisfied. He knows that "I am this body." According to the dog's body, he barks. That's all. No more inquiry. Therefore actual human form of life, actual business of human form of life, begins from this inquiry. Brahma-jijñāsā. So this brahma-jijñāsā is being explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, what is Brahman? That is, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So dehī, the owner of the body, is Brahman. Therefore Vedic injunction is, "Just realize what you are." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi.
Prabhupāda: Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. The jñānīs and yogis, they have to search for the Absolute Truth for many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān. Those who are searching out the Absolute Truth, they are also jñānavān. Or after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, jñānavān. Everyone is searching after the Absolute or the highest perfection of life. "In this way, searching, when one comes to the real platform of becoming wise, then he surrenders unto Me." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Why? Now, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Such wise man, jñānavān, he knows that "Kṛṣṇa is everything." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. "That mahātmā is very rare." So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is making that sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ, not ordinary mahātmā. Sa mahātmā, that mahātmā, who fully surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa also says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is real perfection of life. By understanding Kṛṣṇa, by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, by going back to home back to Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, that is saṁsiddhi. What is that verse, saṁsiddhi?
Pradyumna: Saṁsiddhiṁ paraṁ gati...
Prabhupāda: No... nāpnuvanti. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. Saṁsiddhim. Siddhi, siddhi is ordinary. If you become transcendentalist, jñānī, yogi, that is also kind of siddhi. Yogis, they have got aṣṭa-siddhi, aṇimā-laghimādi. But that is not saṁsiddhi. Saṁsiddhi is different. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. The highest perfection, saṁsiddhi is to go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is saṁsiddhi. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). That will save him from coming down again to this place which is full of miserable conditions of life. That is saṁsiddhi. That one can attain very easily. That is also described, that janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ: (BG 4.9)
Prabhupāda: ...for others it is said. For Kṛṣṇa, it is mercy. The gopīs came with lust. They became purified with Kṛṣṇa's association. Gopīs actually, superficially, externally, they are, means, nitya-siddha, ever-liberated expansion of Kṛṣṇa's energy, internal energy. But apparently, they left their father, husband and came to Kṛṣṇa. So that is, from Vedic principle, it is wrong. One young girl cannot go to other young man, giving up the protection of father, brother, and... So they did it. So they, according to Vedic principle, it is sinful. But because it was related with Kṛṣṇa, they became purified. That means any way, if one comes in contact with Kṛṣṇa, he becomes purified. Even though he's sinful. That is Kṛṣṇa's... That is the benefit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sun is never infected. Rather, the infected area becomes sterilized by the sunshine. This is the process. That is explained. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). One who is very powerful, he has no fault. So how your temperature is going on?
Śyāmasundara: Everything is getting very nicely improved.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Śyāmasundara: You've got some cold?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: I got everything, still, I haven't got anything. (laughter) So you can invite the neighboring people. We can hold an evening class or morning class. I'll give you one matter for... (break) This is a nice place. If you invite the neighboring..., they may come and take advantage.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you answer them, "Yes, you become a dog, but you become a dog of a good master." What is the use of becoming dog of another dog? Then what profit will be there? Is it not? We are... Actually every one of us is dog. And we are trying to satisfy so many masters. The masters are our senses. We are already dog, everyone, because everyone is servant of the senses, kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya. So everyone is dog. Now he has to remain a dog, but by becoming dog of these senses, he is not happy. Find out a good master, and become a dog. You become happy. This is our philosophy. And the best master is Kṛṣṇa. We are also trying to be dog, but not of another dog, but real master. That is our philosophy. What is the use of becoming a dog of another dog? That is not proper. Here the material world is that "I am dog, I have got a master, and the master has got another master. He has got another master, he has got another master." Nobody can say that "I am Absolute." Nobody can say. That is not possible. You must have a master. Therefore everyone is a dog. So why don't you find out the Absolute master, the biggest master? And that is God. "God is great." Capture Him, master. Then you will be happy. That is intelligence. When one comes to his senses, that "I have served so many masters. Neither the master has become happy, neither I have become happy." That is frustration. Everyone. The master is not happy. You serve any master. Ask him, "Are you satisfied?" And, "What you have done, that I will be satisfied? You have to do so many things." So he is not satisfied, and you are not satisfied. Then to become dog of this ordinary master will never give us satisfaction. Always frustration. Just become the dog of the supreme master. You will be happy. Supreme master is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Mahāprabhu. Prabhu means master. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name, Mahāprabhu, "the supreme master."
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Eh? That is another thing. On the path of reality, you come.
Hanumān: On the path?
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a process. When the process is complete, then you'll come to the reality. But that is the process. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). We cannot distinguish now reality and non-reality because the heart is unclean. So we have to cleanse, and then we come to the reality.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: For that matter, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one comes to that stage, there is no difference between animate and inanimate. Is that true?
Prabhupāda: Highest stage?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Highest stage, everything animate.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So a stone... Even a stone has soul.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, yes. Just like this tree. You cut; it does not protest. The consciousness is not developed. That is the... But it has got life. You scientists, you do not believe that stone has also life?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they say it's just matter.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say there's no life there.
Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand one word please. One word, if you understand, your life will be successful. Don't go further. Ācāryopāsanam. This is the very important thing.
Dr. Patel: Every, every word is important, Bhagavad-gītā... Why one word?
Prabhupāda: Yes! So ācārya, who is ācārya? Then next question will be: who is ācārya? Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Those who are coming, the ācārya-sampradāya. Śrī-sampradāya, Rudra-sampradāya, the four sampradāyas. So unless... Sampradāya vihīnā ye mantrās te viphalāḥ... Unless one comes to the ācārya disciplic succession, whatever nonsense he speaks, it is all useless. This is the most important thing, ācāryopāsanam.
Dr. Patel: Śaucaṁ sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ. Again I read, eh?
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Dr. Patel: Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam, ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucaṁ... (BG 13.8).
Prabhupāda: So amānitvam. Instead of becoming amānitvam, these Māyāvādīs say, "I am God." Just see. This is amānitvam. He falsely claims that "I have become God now." Does it mean amānitvam? And here, Vaiṣṇava says, gopī-bhartuḥ pāda-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). This is amānitvam. This is amān... "I am servant of the servant." And these rascals are claiming, "I am God." This is amānitvam.
Dr. Patel: Adambhitvam.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa... Doctor Shah. Mister Shah? Kṛṣṇa says...
Dr. Shah: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: ...that evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Unless one comes to the paramparā system, he cannot understand the knowledge. But these rascals, without in the paramparā system, they interpret.
Dr. Shah: According to you, how many paramparās are there?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Shah: How many paramparās are there?
Prabhupāda: No, no, how many, don't take many. Take one.
Dr. Shah: One, yes.
Prabhupāda: Now, Kṛṣṇa is speaking to Arjuna. That is a fact.
Dr. Shah: Oh, that way also, he understood(?).
Prabhupāda: Yes. So as Arjuna understands, you take that. But all the rascals, they are going to understand Kṛṣṇa which is not spoken by Arjuna. Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Do they accept that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the position. Sarveṣu kāleṣu. Not that sometimes here and sometimes there. That will take long time, but unless one comes to sarveṣu kāleṣu, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa...
Dr. Patel: Vedeṣu yajñeṣu tapaḥsu caiva dāneṣu yat-puṇya-phalaṁ pradiṣṭam...
Prabhupāda: Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). That is required.
Dr. Patel: Yajnesu.
- vedeṣu yajñeṣu tapaḥsu caiva
- dāneṣu yat-puṇya-phalaṁ pradiṣṭam
- atyeti tat sarvam idaṁ viditvā
- yogī paraṁ sthānam upaiti cādyam
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if one understands that all these pious activities, charity, performance of sacrifices, and so many other things, only by Kṛṣṇa bhakti can be achieved, then he's assured.
Dr. Patel: This is the last verse.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...yuktena. Now just this woman is carrying a load on her head, how she's keeping balance. He cannot do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: This is the confidential. Viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat (BG 10.42). That is the most confidential. "Only by one of My this thing, the whole jagat is being supported. Why do you want to talk about nonsense of so many things? Only one thing is important and that is this."
Prabhupāda: So... Yes. So unless one is convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of all causes, sarva kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), he has not understood the confidential subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā. That is the con... Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). Unless one comes to this conclusion, that "Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything," ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, iti matvā bhajante mām, he cannot be fixed up in the worship or serving Kṛṣṇa. This conclusion must be reached.
Dr. Patel: The next word is telling the same thing as you say.
- bhavāpyayau hi bhūtānāṁ
- śrutau vistaraśo mayā
- tvattaḥ kamala-patrākṣa
- māhātmyam api cāvyayam
- (BG 11.2)
That "Everything is originating from You and..."
Prabhupāda: Now the opposite. This is the conclusion, that one has to understand that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes, He is the origin of everything. So why do they divert their attention to other subjects?
Prabhupāda: Any education. You train a child to the standard of that education and he will develop his intelligence. A child who does not know what is what, the father says "This is... My dear child, it is watch." Once, twice, thrice, you call, "Watch, watch, watch," he learns, "This is watch." Jaya, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi, aside) So one has to awaken the intelligence. So that supreme intelligence is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When one comes to the point of supreme intelligence, that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like a rose flower, when it comes to the full blooming stage, it is very beautiful, fragrant, like that. So when a living entity comes to the understanding of his constitutional position, what he is actually, and acts like that, that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then it is full development. That is called buddhi-yogam. Buddhi is there, intelligence is there, and when it is fully developed for understanding Kṛṣṇa, that is called buddhi-yogam. Yes. Buddhi-yogam. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is described, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti. Buddhi-yogam means the intelligence, but... Don't come near. The intelligence which gets the living entity back to home, back to Godhead. That is called buddhi-yogam. Any yoga system means connecting link with the Supreme. When we speak of buddhi-yogam, that is the ultimate yoga. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata antar-ātmanā (BG 6.47). All different types of yoga practice, the most important and topmost yoga practice is to think of Kṛṣṇa always within oneself. That is being practiced, Hare Kṛṣṇa. The topmost yoga system. (break) You are experienced. Try to understand this philosophy and give it to your country. Your country is a most important country in Europe. Roman civilization.
Girirāja: (reading) "This māyā or illusory struggle for existence is immediately stopped. Lord Brahmā, who has full control over the Goddess of learning and who is considered to be the best authority in Vedic knowledge, was thus perplexed, being unable to understand the extraordinary power manifested in the Supreme Personality of Godhead." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. Tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. (break) ...said that unless one comes to understand the inconceivable power of God, there is no meaning of God.
Dr. Patel: It is inconceivable to conceive God.
Prabhupāda: No, no, inconceivable power of God. God is in your presence.
Dr. Patel: No, no, but His personal power is inconceivable. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...understand the inconceivable power of God. (break) First of all he has to come to the sattva-guṇa. Sthitaḥ sattve prasīdati.
Prabhupāda: No, material world we can see that it is useless. Everyone sees. That I am giving, this example. Before, the Romans, they constructed this big, big building. Now what is the value of that? It has no value. Simply it is kept as sentiment, relics. That's all. So this will be also the same thing. So where is the utility? Spiritual, apart from spiritual, what is the value of your material activity? It is practical. Everyone can see. If one comes to Rome, they can see that these big, big buildings, they were very nice building at that time, very wonderful building, but what is the value of it now? Anyone can see. Any sane man can see. So why should we waste our energy in that way? If there is any valuable work, let us see. That is intelligence. To make another heaps of relics, is that very good sense? Nobody will go there even to urine or pass stool.
Dhanañjaya: No facilities.
Prabhupāda: No facility. Nobody is...
Dhanañjaya: Only the cats go there.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Dhanañjaya: So many cats are living there.
Satsvarūpa: But just like this building up ahead, they say, "But now we have it, we can enjoy. There are so many facilities there we are enjoying every day."
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. What you are enjoying?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are always engaged in devotional service. So unless there is some realization, how they can engage their time in this way? (break) "You are human being. You can eat. I have given you fruits. I have given you vegetables. I have given you food grains. I have given you milk, very nutritious, palatable, containing all vitamin ABCD. And why should you kill animals? Why should you give trouble to the others?" This is self-realization, that "Here is another self. The same active principle is working there. The body is different. Why shall I kill him?" So they have realized it. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Equal vision to all living entities, that the self, that active principle, is working in the fish, in the insect, within the tree, within the plant, within the animals, within the birds and within me. This is self-realization. That active principle is soul, and the soul is migrating from one body to another as you are migrating from childhood to babyhood, babyhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So the soul is the same. The body is different. The body is material and the soul is spiritual. When one comes to this understanding, that is self-realization.
Prabhupāda: No. Pure consciousness is actually you are. Just like water. Water is pure. When it is comes from the sky, it is clear crystal water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes muddy. Similarly, we soul, spirit soul, we are pure. As soon as we come in contact with this matter, material existence, we become impure. And there are three stages of impurity: goodness, passion and ignorance. So all of them are impure. Unless one comes to the spiritual consciousness—he may be a very nice man—he is infected with the impurity of goodness. He is thinking, "I am very big man, I am very..." That is also impurity. And another man does not know what he is, just like animal, all the animals. That is also impurity. When both of them will come to the clear consciousness that "I am part and parcel of God; my duty is to serve God," that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long he identifies with this material consciousness, he is impure. Just like people are fighting: "I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am this," "I am that," "I am black," "I am white," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am śūdra"—so many, designations. These designations are impurity. Just like sometimes the artists, they manufacture some statue naked. In France I saw, naked. They take it this naked statue is pure art, not dressed. Similarly, when you come to the nakedness of spirit soul without this designation of this body, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," that is purity.
Professor Durckheim: But the meaning of the impure is to be the background of the consciousness of the pure without any experiencing the suffering in the impure.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: There are many ways. Just like hypothesis. Hypothesis. Yes. History, history. Hypothesis, history. Then direct perception. There are many. But of all these, śabda-pramāṇa is taken as best. Śabda-pramāṇa, evidence through the sound. That is the best.
Professor: No, but (indistinct). According to (indistinct). If one comes to value, existential value of a thing, through deduction... Is it possible or not only through intuition, through direct intuition of the reality of the whole?(?)
Prabhupāda: Value by intuition?
Professor: Direct knowledge of the existence of a thing, of anything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The knowledge of existence, that nityaḥ-śāśvato 'yam, nityaḥ ṣāṣvataḥ, that is knowledge of existence. So you have to learn which is nitya and which is not nitya from the authority. "This is nitya, and this is anitya." So nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). These are the Vedic version: "There is one chief nitya amongst the many nityas." Just like we, we living entities, we are nityas, eternal. First of all try to understand eternity. You were a child or I was a child. Now that body, child body, is no longer existing. But I understand, I know, that I had a body, child. Therefore I am nitya. I am existing. The body has gone, but I am existing. Therefore I am eternal, nitya. Is it clear?
Professor: Well, I remember one other explanation, that when you are sleeping and you have a dream...
Prabhupāda: No, when I am sleeping I am working.
Hṛdayānanda: How can it be that we're advancing if we can become a dog in the next life, is that it, or something inferior? Where is the question of progress?
Prabhupāda: What is that? No, by nature's way there is evolution, from dog to fox, fox to this, that, that. That is... There is a law. But again one can fall down. In this way one comes to the human form of body. That is the chance of self-realization. But if in the human form of life, he does not behave like a human being—he behaves like cats and dogs—then he gets again cats and dogs. So if by his work, he gets degradation to get the body like a dog, then again it will take millions of years to come to the human form of life. Therefore intelligent man should be very careful. He should not say, "I don't care." That is very risky life.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that he thinks that not everyone's looking for God, but people should be asked whether they want to be something different than what they are, and he thinks we need something practical, not simply something of faith.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that every practical things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā. You ask any question and the solution is there.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): They say that they say the same thing of the Bible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You follow Bible. That is also nice. But you do not follow. That is the difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Yes, when one comes to God consciousness. And the relationship is "God is great; we are subordinate." Just like the father is the maintainer, and the son is maintained. Although the father and the son of the same quality, still, the relationship is the father is the maintainer, and the son is maintained.
Guest (5): That's, of course, not the orthodox Christian interpretation, that's supposed to be. It's very clear by the time the decrees were worked out that Jesus is not a creature. He's incarnate God.
Guest (6): You say that we are creatures, and we are subordinate to God, and I can understand that. Christ was not created.
Prabhupāda: Yes, none of us are created. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā...
Guest (6): Yes, I understand now. I spoke earlier with some people... In other words you say we are co-eternal with the father just as Christ is.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are all eternal. That is nityo nityānām. I have already explained. Nitya means eternal. There are two eternals: one chief eternal, God, and one subordinate eternals, they are plural number. God is one, and we are many. Father is one; the children are many. Similarly, both the father and the children are eternal. God is not created, and the childrens are not created. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā. All these living entity, they are never created; neither they ever die. Nityaḥ śāśvatam na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They are eternal, ever existing. Even after the destruction of the body, they are not annihilated. So God is eternal. That I have already explained. And we living entities, we are also eternal. How the son can be otherwise?
Prabhupāda: Ah, Vālmīki. There were many. There were, are many. Nārada. Nārada was a son of a maidservant, śūdra. He had no father. So dāsī-putra. And he became Nārada. So where is the restriction? Similarly, in the Jabalopaniṣad, Satyakāma Jabala, he was also a prostitute's son. And he approached Gautama Muni, "You kindly make me your disciple." Gautama Muni said, "What you are?" "I am my mother's son, that's all." "Then who is your father?" "That I do not know." "Ask your mother." So mother replied, "My dear son, I do not know who is your father." And he came and said to Gautama Muni, "Sir, my mother also does not know who is my father." Then Gautama Muni said, "Yes, you are brāhmaṇa. Come on. I shall..." Because speaking truth. So unless you are a son of a brāhmaṇa, you cannot speak such secret truth. Nobody will say that "I do not know who is my father." It is social scandal even up to date. But he plainly said that "My mother does not know who is my father." So immediately Gautama Muni accepted him as brāhmaṇa: "You are telling the truth." Satya śamaḥ damaḥ. Because it is first qualification. So such a high cultural life. Now we should take standard śāstra and follow and establish educational institution to train them. Otherwise, simply by crying in the wilderness, what will be the result? Now some result is there because I am practically training them. And before me, all the swamis went there. They lectured, that's all. So what is the meaning of lectures unless you train them? That "Our Hindu religion is very great, very nice, and whatever you like, you can do. It doesn't matter." Then where is the training? Now little effect is there because I am training them. As soon as one comes to me for becoming disciple, I place before him that "You have to give up all these habits." When he agrees, then I accept him. And therefore I have got some selected, trained-up men. So there must be this training college, institution, and proper training according to the śāstra. Then there is possibility of changing the whole situation. Then what is next?
Prabhupāda: Even by sentiment one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is not loser; he is gainer. And if one person does not come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does his duty very nicely, he gains nothing.
Paramahaṁsa: Due to the so many rascal commentators on the Bhagavad-gītā, in India all the Indians have a conception that the perfection of human life is to simply execute one's karma or to do his duty to his family, etc, and therefore they're wasting their time in this way and completely neglecting devotional service. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)
Prabhupāda: You bring so many varieties of food: And my duty is to eat.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes. So...
Prabhupāda: So now let me perform my duty. (end)
Prabhupāda: So, everyone is attracted with the woman's body. In your country I have seen the advertisement: "bottomless," "topless..." That is the material attraction. Everyone is in this material world on account of attachment. And similarly, for woman, the man's body is beautiful. So in this way both of them are attached to one another. That is the basic principle of material life. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). They become attached. On account of sex life, they become more attached, and therefore both of them remain almost perpetually in this material world, and to satisfy different desires they transmigrate from one body to another. And on account of accepting this material body, there is always miserable condition. Therefore everyone requires the psychiatric treatment so that the mind may be transferred from matter to spirit soul. Then he will be cured. The disease is of the mind. Harāv abhaktasy kuto mahād-guṇa mano-rathena. Everyone is riding on the chariot of mind. And the mind is taking him here and there, here... And the yoga practice is also treatment. This is also yoga, bhakti-yoga, and this ordinary haṭha-yoga, that is also treatment of the mind. Treatment of mind means controlling the senses. Yoga indriya-samyamaḥ. Mind is the leader of the senses. So if the treatment of the mind is done properly, then the senses work properly. The example is the madman. Because the madman's mind is not controlled, he is acting in a way—people say, "Here is a madman." So everyone is more or less a madman in this material world, or, in other words, you can say anyone who is in the material world, he is a madman. He requires treatment. Just like anyone who is in the prison house, it is to be accepted that he is a criminal. Without any study, without any exception we can accept all the prisoners as criminals. (break) ...gradually appreciate. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ (CC Antya 20.12). This treatment is in the beginning just cleansing the mirror of the heart. That is the treatment. Just like a mirror, when it is overcast with dust, it requires cleansing. So the mental mirror is covered with material dust. So it has to be cleansed. That is the treatment. And when it is cleansed, you can see your real face in the mirror. Similarly, as soon as our heart disease, contaminated by the modes of material nature, is cleansed, you can understand what is your real position. That is the success of psychiatric treatment. One comes to know, "What I am."
Madhudviṣa: ...who are here, they would like to have your association, (laughter) more personal association.
Prabhupāda: I also like. (laughter) Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi **. This is essential, to be anxious to be associated with the spiritual master. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). That is the statement of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa one comes in touch with the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of spiritual master, one gets Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa can understand what we want. So when we sincerely want Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa sends His representative, guru. Guru is outside representative of Kṛṣṇa. So to the sincere student, Kṛṣṇa teaches from inside and outside. That is the way, so that he becomes quickly fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. So this behavior, to be attached to spiritual master, is a good qualification. Yasya prasādāt, by his mercy, Kṛṣṇa becomes merciful. By Kṛṣṇa's mercy, one gets spiritual master, and by the spiritual master's mercy, one gets the mercy of Kṛṣṇa.
So your this behavior, attachment, is very much appreciated both by Kṛṣṇa and devotees. So continue this attitude and follow the instruction. Then it is guaranteed, go back to home, back to Godhead. It is not difficult. For a sincere person to go back to home, back to Godhead is not at all difficult. Especially Kṛṣṇa in this age has personally appeared as Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is very, very kind to the fallen souls. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo. His business was with all the pāpī and tāpī. Pāpī means sinful, and tāpī means suffering. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo... (to child:) Sit down.
Woman: I must give him tissues.
Prabhupāda: Mode of goodness. Just like not that everyone can become a philosophy professor. It requires certain qualification. But everyone can become also. Everyone got the chance. Provided he is qualified, then he can take the post of a philosophy professor. Everyone has got the chance, not that you have got only the chance. Anyone has got the chance. But not that without having a certain qualification, one can become. Similarly, these thing will remain puzzling unless one comes to the qualification of goodness. Therefore we order our disciples, "Come to the platform of goodness. Give up all this nonsense habit." Then it will be possible.
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Let him ask. (pause) Tato rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ (SB 1.2.19). Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu (SB 1.2.18). In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you find out this verse, First Canto. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā. So abhadreṣu, prāyeṣu. We are now covered with base qualities. So when these base qualities are finished, not altogether, almost finished, then one can come to the platform of sattva-guṇa.
Dr. John Mize: The platform of...?
Prabhupāda: Sattva-guṇa, goodness. In that platform one can understand very quickly. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is little successful because we are trying to bring the students on the platform of goodness. Therefore it is becoming little successful. If you keep them in the platform of ignorance and passion, then it will be difficult.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he also thought it is a very nice place.
Kāśīrāma: Queen Kuntī was always praying that the calamities would happen again and again so that she would remember Kṛṣṇa. If the calamities are always happening in the material world, we will realize it is a terrible place to stay.
Prabhupāda: This is jñāna, knowledge. When one comes to this conclusion, "This is worthless," that is jñāna, knowledge. And so long one will think, "No, it is not always bad, sometimes very good," that is ignorance. (laughs)
Kuruśreṣṭha: They say that without the bad, then the good wouldn't be as good.
Prabhupāda: So you remain with bad and good. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. That possibility is here. Sometimes you are going to the higher heavenly planets, a long duration of life, better standard of enjoyment—again coming back. (break) Good and bad is exemplified: just like I catch you and put down the water, and when you are suffocated, I raise you little, and you say, "Oh. (laughter) It is very nice." But you do not know, again you are going to be... You see? "This good, bad" is here like that. He is put into the water and suffocated, and when he is taken out little, he says, "Oh, it is very good. It is very good." The rascal does not know, the next moment he is going to be again drowned in that. That is going on. Daṇḍya-jane rāja-jana... That was the chief punishment formerly. If one has to be punished, instead of putting into the jail and feed him, the officers will take him to a river and put him in the water. In this way, one day doing, he will say "I will never do these things. Please excuse me." Daṇḍya-jane rāja-jane nadite cubaya. (break) ...unless one remembers this, that "To be in the material world, how suffocating it is," he will not fit for going to back to Godhead. He must be completely detestful. If he keeps little attachment, "No, it is very good sometimes," then you have to remain here. (break) "This is not permanent. I shall be put next moment in the bad condition." That he must know. That is knowledge. And if he makes compromise, then he has to be again... (break)
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, that's... Our treatment is for the diseased person. So diseased person does not make any distinction of poor man and rich man. Rich man is also diseased, and poor man is also diseased, and everyone should be admitted in the hospital. So hospital should be in such a place where the poor man and rich man, both of them can come because all of them are diseased. So when one comes to the hospital there is no such thing as a poor man's hospital or rich man's. Hospital is hospital. And everyone being diseased, everyone should take advantage. But the difficulty is, as we are quoting the passage, that rich man, he thinks that he is not diseased. Although he is diseased number one, but he thinks that he is not diseased. That is the difficulty of the rich man. But we are thinking everyone is diseased. And you know better than me being police. There are criminality amongst rich men and poor men alike.
Lt. Mozee: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: So our process is to cleanse the heart, not the opulence or poverty. No, that is not our... To cleanse the heart. If the poor man is cleansed in his heart he will not touch anybody's property. I heard that King, Emperor Edward VII, his habit was to steal.
Lt. Mozee: Yes, he was a kleptomaniac. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: More... Bhāgavatam, I told you, it is a counterpart. Just like when you have passed the school examination then next you admit yourself for degree or graduate degree. Similarly, Bhāgavata is the end of education. Everyone is progressing. When one comes to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and understands it then his education is complete.
Prof. Hopkins: Then would it be, would it be dangerous for someone who is not at that level to study Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or would they simply not understand it?
Prabhupāda: Dangerous means if one is not completely educated of self-realization he has the risk of degradation.
Prof. Hopkins: He has what?
Prabhupāda: The risk of degradation. Now I have got human form of body, I may degrade to animal. Because transmigration of the soul. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, tathā dehāntara prāptir, after death one gets another body. Now, what kind of body, that depends on his work. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). If he has done very nicely, in goodness, then he will be promoted to the higher planetary system. And if he has not done anything nice then he will remain here or he will be degraded to the lower planetary system.
Prof. Hopkins: That is... How does that relate to the question of studying the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?
Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or Bhagavad-gītā, if one realizes properly then he gets promotion back to home, back to Godhead. He is no more a person to live in this material world. Material world means ups and down, ups and down. And spiritual world means steady life of knowledge and bliss.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot see them. Your philosophy is unless you see, you don't believe. That is your philosophy. But you do not consider what you can see. That is the defect of this imperfect world, that people do not think that they are imperfect. With all imperfectness, they think they are perfect. That is the defect. Therefore it is said, andha. One is blind, and he is becoming the leader of other blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Īśa-tantrya, by the laws of nature he is bound up very tight, hands and legs, and he is thinking he is free to think, free to see, free to... That is the defect. He is not at all free, completely under the clutches of material laws, and he is thinking that he is free. That is the defect. And when this sense comes, that "I am not free; everything is forced upon me," then he becomes human being. Otherwise he's a dog. Just like, you see, if a dog thinks he is free. He is jumping here, there. He is thinking, "I am independent," barking, attacking somebody. Oh, he is thinking he is free to do everything. When one comes to this sense, that he is not free, that is beginning of human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Then the question will be that "Why I am not free? What is the reason?" Then that is... Real human life begins. Otherwise he's a dog. Is it correct or not? What do you think? If one is not free and wrongly thinks that he is free, then what is that mentality? A doggish mentality. And if I say, "Yes, you are free. You can think in any way you like. That is correct," then you become more encouraged to become, to remain a fool, to continue. That's all. So we shall go now? That is the defective part of modern civilization. Everyone is thinking, "I am free." Is it not? Everyone.
Prabhupāda: There is no material. When you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Just like madness. Madness is not our natural position, but when your brain is deranged, then it is madness. Madness has no separate existence, but when our brain is not in order, there is madness. Similarly, there is nothing material, because everything has come from Kṛṣṇa. The original source is Kṛṣṇa. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). So the material world, the so-called material world, has come from Kṛṣṇa. So if it has come from Kṛṣṇa how it is material? The cause and effect is the same, maybe differently manifested. Just like cotton, cotton made into thread, the shape has changed, but it is cotton. And from the cotton thread, you make cloth. The cloth is cotton. But if I say, "Cotton. Bring cotton," then you'll bring cotton, not this cloth. But the cloth is also cotton. Now understand? Cloth is nothing but cotton. But when I say "Bring cotton," you'll not bring a cloth. You'll bring cotton. So the Kṛṣṇa is the sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), cause of all effects. So all the effects are Kṛṣṇa. But you have no such realization. When you understand that this place is Kṛṣṇa's place, so you can worship Kṛṣṇa, glorify Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't realize that it is Kṛṣṇa's, then you talk nonsense, madman. "This is American property," "It is African property," "It is this. It is that," so many madness. But the śāstra says, iśavāsyam idam, everything Kṛṣṇa's. And the materialists, they'll pro... "No. Why everything? It is my country. It is my place." That is material. Similarly, anything coming from Kṛṣṇa—Kṛṣṇa is supreme spirit—it is spiritual. The devotees, they understand that "This fruit has come from Kṛṣṇa. The flower has come from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it must be offered to Kṛṣṇa. It is for use." Otherwise how the fruit becomes spiritual? We take prasādam. How it becomes..., the same fruit? No. Because the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, it is spiritual. It is spiritual, but it was not known. When one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he understands that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Hari-sambhandhi vastūnaḥ. Everything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That's the fact. So if anything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa, so that is not material. We are going to a house, but it is said "temple." Why? Because there is relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise where is the difference between the next house and our house? So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that everything is spiritual, but we do not accept it. We accepted something else. That is material.
Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa's qualification is there—śama, dama, titikṣa, ārjavam and jñānam, vijñānam, āstikyam, brahma-karma... (BG 18.42). Everything is there, the symptoms. So you are doing business, the occupation of the vaiśyas or śūdras, and how you are claiming to become brāhmaṇa? The... Who is a brāhmaṇa, that symptoms is there in the śāstra. And not only the symptoms, Nārada Muni has said, "If these symptoms are found elsewhere, then he should be accepted according to the symptom." There is no question of birth. Yasya hi yaḻ lakṣanām proktaṁ varṇābhivyanjakaṁ yady anyātrāpi dṛṣyeta tat tenaiva viniriset. This is Nārada's vision. So it is the symptom. Just like a doctor, medical man. He diagnoses according to the symptom. He finds out the cause. So symptom is required, not that a man has become diseased or healthy by birth. No. By birth he is born. Then again, when he develops certain types of symptom, so one has to take him in that way. That is śāstra. We are accepting, or giving them sacred thread, brāhmaṇa, after seeing that they are actually acting as a brāhmaṇa, not superficially. Therefore we take some time to see whether he can develop brahminical symptom. That is our process, not that anyone comes, and we give him a sacred thread and he becomes immediately brāhmaṇa. We don't do this. First of all give him chance. Let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, follows the rules and regulations. Then let us see. If he is actually serious, he has developed the symptom, then... This is the proper way. Even one comes from the brāhmaṇa family—he wants initiation—we don't give immediately, even if he is coming from a brāhmaṇa... That is a good facility, that he is born in a brāhmaṇa family, but the symptom is the first necessity. Either you are born in a brāhmaṇa family or śūdra family, it doesn't matter.
Indian man (6): (unclear)
Prabhupāda: No, he has to take another birth. If he is not completely purified, he has to suffer another birth. Nobody is allowed to enter into the spiritual unless he is cent percent pure. No allowance. Then he has to... Therefore it is said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate (BG 6.41). He is given chance, another chance, to take birth in a very pure brāhmaṇa family or rich family so that he may take again the chance, not in, he is allowed to enter. He is given a good chance again. That is his benefit. Even if you are failure, still, your next birth as a very first-class human being is guaranteed. Not for others. It is only for the yogis. If he is... Therefore it is said that "What is the loss even if he is failure?" Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi yatra kva va abhadram abhūd amuṣya kim (SB 1.5.17). This verse is very important. Even by sentiment one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and discharges the regulative duties, chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, his next life is guaranteed as a human being. Even he does it for some time—he is not perfect—still, his next life is guaranteed. But others, there is no such guarantee. Even if he discharges his so-called duties, material duties, there is no guarantee that he'll become a human being. (break)
Harikeśa: They let him stay in that body and then he went to Hṛṣīkeśa and performed devotional service and then became perfect.
Prabhupāda: No, he was already perfect, but to increase his desire—"How shall I go Vaikuṇṭha?"—another time he had to go. He was a perfect; otherwise how he was saved from the Yamadutas?
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So this is the material side. Similarly, spiritual side also, the same. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). If the sādhu-saṅga is there, then gradually he becomes a devotee.
Jayapatākā: (break) ...looking for a job. He worked for two months and then became devotee. He never took even salary.
Prabhupāda: Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). This is the process. If one comes in contact with devotee or God, then he is simply satisfied by the service. No return. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce. (break) ...guru?
Sudāmā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these workers are coming.
Prabhupāda: Ghosh wanted to give us land that side for making a path to the Ganges.
Jayapatākā: Sell us.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So we have got a plan beginning from this gate up to the Ganges. If we get land we can do that. (break) Foundation stone in Nellore can be transferred to Madras?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's what I'm going to do.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Madras is far better place than Nellore. (break) ...if we take charity from such fallen woman, then we have to share his sinful activity. Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should be careful from whom we accept charity?
Prabhupāda: That is stated in Viṣṇu Purāṇa.
- varṇāśramācāra-vatā
- puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān
- viṣṇur ārādhyate panthā
- nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam
- (CC Madhya 8.58)
That is said, varṇāśrama-dharma. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, unless one comes to the regulation of varṇāśrama-dharma, that is not human civilization. That is actually the fact. That is the same dog's society. That is going on. If there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified brāhmaṇa, who will give direction? There is no... If there is no kṣatriya, then who will give protection? If there is no vaiśya, then who will produce food? And if there is no śūdra, then who will work for general assistance? This is scientific.
Harikeśa: You have defeated us all again.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Harikeśa: We are all defeated.
Prabhupāda: You?
Harikeśa: Everyone.
Prabhupāda: It should be.
Dr. Patel: And it will be like India after twenty years.
Guru dāsa: The result is that the biggest problem in Russia is that no one comes to work-absenteeism.
Dr. Patel: That will be here also. I have been to Ceylon, sir. And in Colombo they are giving free ration to the people. I mean, the rice.
Prabhupāda: There is a story in Bengal. (Bengali) The woman had seven sons. The mother requested first son, "My dear boy, now I am going to die. Take me to the Ganges side." He said, "Why? You have got so many other sons, why you are requesting me?"
Dr. Patel: She was calling every one, and nobody took her.
Prabhupāda: And then second son, third.... Everyone said like that, and she died without Gaṅgā. Agar mā gaṅgā.(?) So this.... And everyone has to work. And he thinks that "Why I shall work? Let him work. No work today."
Guru dāsa: You tell the story about a man beating with a stick, and then the police constable came and said, "You have beaten him." "No, no, no. It was the stick that beat him, not me." (laughter) No responsibility.
Dr. Patel: No, but, you see, the sense of possession in human society is more important, because they have no sense of possession.
Prabhupāda: Mānasa deha geha yo kichu mora, arpiluṅ tuwā pade. All as soon as it is surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, it is all spiritual.
Mahāṁśa: Sanātana Gosvāmī, at first he wanted to commit suicide. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "This body is not yours."
Prabhupāda: Yes. "How you can make suicide? You have already dedicated your body to Me. You have no right." This was the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's.... You cannot neglect it. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's version. When one comes to this understanding, that "Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, everything has emanated from Kṛṣṇa," ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8), "and everything can be used for Kṛṣṇa," then real understanding-sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That is wanted. (break) ...1:15. Fifteen minutes late.
Dr. Patel: Brāhma-muhūrta... (Hindi) I take my bath at three o'clock, so it is all right for me. I'm never falling in all these ways. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...give you this foolishness that in other countries they have taken to industry and they are also fully engaged in agriculture. Here the men are taken from the village for industrial work, and the agricultural work suffers.
Dr. Patel: Not so in industry. People are idle. It is just like a man having one son, another man having six sons. If the man with six sons works very hard, he is more, I mean, rich than that fellow. But those six boys don't work? Then he goes to hell.
Prabhupāda: No, he works. He sees that "In the village I shall get one rupee per day, and if I go to the town I shall get twenty rupees."
Dr. Patel: Not that, sir, even that, there is no jobs.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Patel: Alpa, alpa...
Prabhupāda: This aparā-vidyā.... Parā-vidyā means Kṛṣṇa. Parā-vidyā means Kṛṣṇa. So one who.... Unless one comes to the point of Kṛṣṇa, he is in the aparā-vidyā. And aparā-vidyā is meant for the less intelligent class of men. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām.
Dr. Patel: Then the whole question was, sir, here in Upaniṣad that...
Prabhupāda: Upaniṣad is parā-vidyā.
Dr. Patel: But when, when Muni went...
Prabhupāda: Upaniṣad is the beginning of parā-vidyā.
Dr. Patel: That's right, sir. He said that "What you have learned? Let me know what you have learned. Then I will teach you further on."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And they said that...
Prabhupāda: Two ways. One is called sādhana-siddhi. One is called kṛpā-siddhi. What is your question?
Devotee (2): If when one comes to spiritual life, is he coming because of material exhaustion, so much pain in the material world, so therefore he's searching?
Prabhupāda: Voluntary.
Devotee (2): Voluntary.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (2): Ah.
Prabhupāda: When one is actually in service, then he comes to.... "So I have enjoyed. Now, no I don't want. Now I want Kṛṣṇa." That is voluntary.
Devotee (2): But is it the guru? Does the guru give him that sense?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru is traveling all over the world, "Take this science." If one is fortunate he can take.
Devotee (3): Those persons who are atheistic, they say that God is created out of a necessity, that people have a necessity to have their father image, so therefore they create religion. This is their basic philosophy, that man creates his own religion. He creates it out of necessity. He needs a father image, so therefore he creates the idea of God.
Prabhupāda: Created? What is that?
Prabhupāda: To understand God, a simple method. Simple method to.... Just like the earth is there, everybody knows. And from the earth different varieties of living entities are coming. The grass is coming, the plant is coming, then insects are coming, flies are coming, then by eating the grass or flies, the bigger animals are coming or they're existing. Take for four-legged animals, they are eating the grass, the plants. So they are living, their generation is going on. Then the human being is coming by evolution. So anyway, ultimately, they are coming from the earth. Is it not? Is there any difficulty? So we are coming from the earth or water or air, fire, there are five elements. Therefore on the total material elements is our mother. The mother means wherefrom one comes. He's your child because his body has come from your body. Everyone knows it. So every living being is coming out of this earth in different forms. Now if it is established, the mother is the earth and everything that is coming out of mother, they are children, then where is father? Is it not the next inquiry?
Mādhavānanda: Is that not the next inquiry?
Prabhupāda: The mother is there, the children are there. The next inquiry is..., suppose unknown man comes to him, "Where is your father?" So who is the father? And father says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: (BG 14.4) "I am father." Finished. Father is God. God has created this earth. He has impregnated the earth with the living entities, and they are coming out. Where is the difficulty? But because they are in ignorance, rascals, it takes long, long time to understand this simple truth. So dull-headed. The children are there and mother is there, and why father, there should be no father? What is the answer?
Prabhupāda: Patient is always rascal fool. You cannot expect him to be intelligent. He must agree to the physician's directions. That is intelligence. He must know that he's diseased, he must follow the instruction of the physician. That much will help him. Unless one is rascal, he does not fall sick. As soon as you violate the hygienic principles, you become sick. All commit sinful activities on account of ignorance. So therefore the best advancement of civilization is not to open hospitals, but to give them a lesson that they may not fall sick and go to hospital. That is real...But they do not know. They keep the mass of people in ignorance, they fall sick and they come to hospital and number of hospitals increase, they think it is advancement. This is their idea. So even the Christians, religious persons, they also open hospital to give relief to the patient. So that is not the program. The program is why he should fall sick and come to the hospital? Precaution is better than cure. One comes to the hospital for cure, but why not take the precaution so that he may not have to come to the hospital for cure? That is Vedic civilization. They have different prescribed rules and regulations so that a person may not fall sick. The modern idea is that "Let them fall sick; we have got hospitals and treat them, and they'll be cured." But he is cured, again he falls sick. That is going on. They have no program for precaution. They have program for cure. But actually, precaution is better than cure. We are taking precaution. The other fools, rascals, they are thinking, "What these people are doing? They are (indistinct) to have no this program, that," according to them. Just like our Vivekananda, he prescribed, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. The same thing—hospital. We kill all animals, and the hospital patient is given the meat for improvement of the health. But he does not know that this is not curing; he is become implicated in his karma. He has to be killed again, and eaten by the other animals. That he does not know. They do not accept karma-phala. Eh? The result of fruitive activities, (indistinct). But you will have to accept.
Prabhupāda: As you can afford. Minimum one cart. Otherwise, three carts. In India the Ratha-yātrā festival is going on, according to rough estimate, for the last two thousand years, and the crowd never diminishes. One secretary of Parliament or something like that.
Hari-śauri: Śrī R. Subramanyam, M.A., Deputy Director Research, Lok Sabha Secretariat, National Parliament, New Delhi. Should I read it? "A strange feature of the modern world is that in spite of vast advances in science and technology and the establishment of a good number of institutions for human welfare, mankind has not found true peace and happiness. Knowledge of material sciences and arts has increased tremendously in recent times, and millions of volumes on each fill the libraries the world over. People and leaders in every country are generally well versed in these arts and sciences, but despite their efforts, human society everywhere continues to be in turmoil and distress. The reason is not far to see. It is that they have not learned the science of God, the most fundamental of every other art and science, and fail to apply it to the facts of life. The need of the hour is, therefore, to do it if mankind is not only to survive but flower into a glorious existence. To teach this science of God to people everywhere and to aid them in their progress and development towards the real goal of life, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is most eminently fitted. In fact, this great ancient work of Vyāsa will fill this need of the modern times, for it is a cultural presentation for the respiritualization of the entire human society. His Divine Grace, Śrīla A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder-ācārya of the ISKCON movement, has taken it upon himself, in addition to his ceaseless travels and other multifarious activities in the service of the Lord, the stupendous task of translating this Sanskrit work into English in about sixty volumes for the welfare and happiness of mankind. It is really astonishing how he is able to do this single-handed, and when one comes to think of this, apart from his other great literary works, one is tempted to wonder if he is not the same Vyāsa Muni reborn today to adapt his own old work into a universal language of this age for the spiritual upliftment of the modern man.
Hari-śauri: I think you gave that example. If you give... If there's a dog and you put him on a king's throne, (Prabhupāda laughs) he'll still come and lick your feet.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll lick up shoes. Another example is given: (Bengali saying) aṅgārā śveta... (indistinct). If you take a piece of coal, you can wash it hundreds and thousands of times, it never becomes white. And these are material things, but spiritually you can reform. It doesn't matter. If one comes to the spiritual platform then everything possible. Otherwise not.
Hari-śauri: They're always looking for a platform of equality.
Prabhupāda: The black men.
Hari-śauri: No, just the people in general, for happiness. Because they understand that if there are so many different groups, then there will always be fighting and dissent. So they are always looking for some compromise how to get the groups to live together.
Prabhupāda: This is equal—Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise not.
Hari-śauri: No. Materially speaking, they've tried so many ways to integrate the black with the whites here in America, but what has actually happened is, through those efforts, they've created a worse situation. By deliberately forcing black children and white children to go to the same schools... Sometimes they have what's called here bussing. It's a big major issue in politics now. Because they take all the black children and they take them to a white area just so that they can go to the school there. They actually take them further away from their local schools to another school, where it is all white children, so that they'll integrate and mix. So it's very controversial.
Prabhupāda: What is called? Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanāya tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that first of all Kṛṣṇa, Vrajendra-nandana, the son of Nanada Mahārāja, He is arādhya. Tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. And His dhāma, His abode, Vṛndāvana, is also worshipable. They are equal. Vṛndāvana-dhāma and Kṛṣṇa, they are equal. So these are higher standard of understanding. Unless one is devotee, purified, he cannot understand that to become one with God is not the sublime idea. In Vṛndāvana one who wants to become the father or mother of God, to control God, that these Māyāvādīs cannot understand, Advaitavādīs. This is to be understood by the pure devotion, devotees. What is the benefit to become equal with God? Just become.... equal.... Other Vaiṣṇava philosophies they could not explain our relationship with God. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained the higher relationship with God. That is called vatsalya-rasa and madhurya-rasa. Especially madhurya-rasa. Anarpita carīṁ cirāt karuṇayāvatirṇaḥ kalau samarpayitum unnatojvala-rasāṁ sva bhakti śriyam. Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave information of the madhurya-rasa, that our relationship can be with Kṛṣṇa in conjugal love. So unless one comes to the platform of devotional service, one cannot understand. But for general understanding this philosophy of acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different.... That is explained in this verse. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). The living entities are part and parcel of God. So if God is gold, then living entities are also gold. This is equality in quality. But God is great, and we are always subordinate. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. We are protected, we are maintained, we are predominated. That is our position. We cannot attain the position of predominator. That is not possible.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, question 17. "What is the future of Hinduism?"
Prabhupāda: It is not proselytization. Proselytization has no meaning. To bring one to the real understanding. Kṛṣṇa says that mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). All living entities are His part and parcel. He claims, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya (BG 14.4). In all forms of life, as many living entities are there, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ, I am the seed-giving father. So the natural position is that every living entity, not only human being, but also animals, plants, everyone... So why not Indian, American, or Czechoslavakian, everyone is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa? So it not the process of proselytizing to convince the idea. It is actually bringing them to their real position, that they're all part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. It is not artificial proselytization that "You are Christian, now you are Hindu." Or "You are Hindu, now you are Christian." "You are a sweeper, now you are harijana." It is not like that. It is actually bringing him to his own position, part and parcel of God. It is not... Proselytization will not stand. When one comes to the real understanding of his position, then that will continue. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that. Bringing one to the original position. He's in diseased condition, he's thinking otherwise than servant of Kṛṣṇa. Now this movement is trying to bring everyone to the position that he is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. It is not a rubberstamp proselytization that "You are Hindu, now you are Christian." Or "You are Christian, now are Hindu." So if he does not know what is his position by simply stamping that he is Hindu or Muslim or Christian, what benefit he will derive?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same ignorance.
Prabhupāda: You have arranged some engagement?
Vipina: Yes. If it's all right with you, he'll come. He's very nice, but he has some mixed-up ideas.
Prabhupāda: Everyone has mixed-up ideas because nobody is properly trained up. Some ideas they have got, some inquiries they have got. But unless one comes to the right person, he cannot be enlightened. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one must approach the proper guru.
Rūpānuga: Everyone has accepted the wrong authority. Everyone has accepted the wrong authority.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he's misled by sense gratification, so even he approaches a guru, if the guru cannot satisfy his senses, he doesn't like. Because he's under the subjugation of senses, he expects that guru also will satisfy his senses, then he is guru. If guru says something against his sense gratification, "Ah, he is not guru." (laughs) Guru also must be a person who can satisfy your senses. This is his sense gratification.
Vipina: After he took those books home and he read them, he wrote us a letter, and he said that he thought you were a very intelligent man and would like to speak to you. So we'll see. Maybe he can hear.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we are speaking something not of this world, but we are pointing out the defects of this world. "This world" means the world of sense gratification.
Rūpānuga: But sometimes the impersonalists, they say, Prabhupāda, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is just the beginning platform, that after Kṛṣṇa consciousness then one can come to impersonal realization. They say that in the scriptures only Bhagavad-gītā and a few scriptures teach about Kṛṣṇa but the rest of the Vedas don't even talk about Kṛṣṇa's name. So, therefore, this impersonalism is higher realization, but one comes to it, after bhakti.
Prabhupāda: No. There are Vedas, there are so many names described. Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa by studying Vedas, then he has not studied Vedas. It is very confidential. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15)? If one has studied Veda, but has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then his labor is useless. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). If one is actually jñānavān, then he (indistinct). Śaṅkarācārya said bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam. That is real knowledge. But if one says that in the Vedas, you don't find Kṛṣṇa's name, then he has not studied Veda. Because Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). The actual purpose of studying Vedas means to understand Kṛṣṇa. If one has not understood Kṛṣṇa, then śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). They have simply labored for nothing.
Guest: Also this, another aspect was answered, the Vedic literature, all that we have today, is not a complete literature. We assume that perhaps some part of the literature has never been copied and was probably lost. So if His name doesn't occur in certain portion of Vedas, it doesn't mean that the name didn't occur in the Vedas. This is something that people have...
Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa's name is very confidential. In the Atharva Veda, there is name, there is.... Jīva Gosvāmī has quoted from Atharva Veda. There is Kṛṣṇa's name. And this, the best scholar of Vedas, (indistinct) he says, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇa, Śaṅkarācārya. Then other ācāryas they have supported Kṛṣṇa's teachings, just like Rāmānujācārya, and (indistinct) he has quoted Vedic quotation, every śloka. So one has to learn the real Vedas, then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned," (Sanskrit). Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's name. But one must be actually scholar in Vedas, then he'll find, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is mentioned in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end."
Prabhupāda: First of all, we do not accept anyone as guru if he's not competent to understand Bhagavad-gītā and preach it also. He's not a guru. The guru's definition given in the Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1), in the Fourth Chapter you'll find, vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt.
- evaṁ paramparā-prāptam
- imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ
- sa kāleneha mahatā
- yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa
- (BG 4.2)
Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, this Bhagavad-gītā philosophy or yoga system, first of all I spoke to the sun-god. And then he spoke to his son, Manu. Then Manu spoke to his son Ikṣvāku." In this way the knowledge comes down from the spiritual master to the disciple or from the father to the son. So unless one comes in this disciplic succession, he cannot become guru. Therefore I do not know all of them. All the swamis and yogis who came here, they do not belong to this paramparā system, so therefore they are not bona fide guru. They are presenting themselves as guru, but they are not guru. Therefore people are misled. People are misled, and this is the first time that we presented India's traditional philosophy and life as it is understood by the paramparā system. Therefore it is being so well received. Vivekananda came here, as you said, 1893, before my birth. I was born in 1896. But they have worked for, say, eighty-five years. What they have done? But I have worked here for seven or eight years. And it is now worldwide movement. Why? Because we presented the things as they are. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2). Therefore it is effective. So if the things are presented as they are, the customers will automatically come.
Prabhupāda: Oh, give them this garland. (break) ...he begins with surrender. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So anyone who voluntarily offers obeisances, immediately he becomes fifty percent advanced. Because.... Who is talking? This material world means nobody wants to surrender. Everyone wants to become master: "I am the monarch of all I survey." Everyone is planning how to become a master. Therefore the struggle for existence. Nobody wants to become a servant. You know very well in European history, Napoleon wanted to become the master of all Europe. Hitler wanted also. Similarly, there were so many leaders, sometimes Roman leaders, sometimes Greek leaders, sometimes French leaders, sometimes German leaders, English leader. The whole European history is full of fighting, war. The basic idea is that everyone wanted to become master. That is the material disease. We are now discussing Bali Mahārāja. He also wanted to become master of the whole universe. So that is the material disease. Actually, master is one, Kṛṣṇa. There cannot be two masters. There is only one master, that is Kṛṣṇa, or God. But in the material world, because we have forgotten the real master, every one of us is trying to become master. This is material disease. Not only in one life, but life after life. The cats and dogs, they also want to be master. The dog, if he finds another dog coming, he immediately begins barking very loudly, "Why you are coming here?" So this mastership competition is going on life after life, sometimes as human being, sometimes as animal, sometimes as fish, aquatic, sometimes as demigod, bird. This is the whole material situation. And the difficulty is that we cannot become master, but on account of our false ambition that "I shall become master," we are becoming servants of material nature. We are acting in a certain way to become master, creating a situation, mentality, and at the time of death, when this body finishes, the mind absorbed in that mastership idea takes me to another body according to my ambition, so I become again manifest in different body to exhibit my mastership. Another chapter begins. So they do not know how these subtle laws of material nature is working to give us opportunity to become master according to our idea, false idea. And we are actually suffering, sometimes as human being, sometimes as animal, sometimes as trees, sometimes as dog. So the mastership cannot be attained. That is not possible. In the false idea to become master we are becoming slaves of the laws of material nature. This is real position, and that is suffering. So when one comes to this understanding, that we are not master, we are servant, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19).
Prabhupāda: If one jñānī is impersonalist, he's not jñānī. He is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. He does not know. Therefore it will take many, many births to come to the understanding of the Personality of Godhead. Therefore he's not jñānī, he's claiming to be jñānī. Such jñānī will take many hundreds of births to come to the position of real jñānī. Find out this bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). So-called jñānī, after many, many births, when he understands Kṛṣṇa and surrenders to Him, then he's jñānī. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That kind of jñānī is very, very rare. The impersonalist means ajñānī. Yes. Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, the person. There is another verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Āruhya kṛcchreṇa, by the jñāna process, is undergoing austerities and penances, one comes to the platform of paraṁ padam, monism, or platform of oneness. But because he has no shelter, he patanty adhaḥ, again comes to the material. Just like so many sannyāsīs in India, they are very learned, they have come to the platform of Brahman realization, but after some time they come to the material field for political work, for social work. They give up this world, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. If jagat is mithyā, is false, why does he come for social work? Just like these people going to the moon planet, but because they do not get any shelter, they take some sand and come back again. So what is the use of going there and spending so much money and come back with little sand, and satisfied, "Now we have studied"? Because they have no shelter. So the jñānīs, they have no shelter. Yes. They may go very high in the sky, but because they have no shelter they come back again. Punar muṣaka bhava, again become a mouse. So that is not jñānī, that is ajñānī. Jñānī is described here, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). Brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) is jñānī, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā, "I have nothing to do with material world." Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54), there is no lamentation, there is no hankering. When he has attained that stage, brahma-bhūta stage, reality, then he is entrance in the bhakti. Otherwise a neophyte.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man: You are doing greatest service to the humanity throughout the world.
Prabhupāda: At least, I am trying. But it is very difficult. We have to spoil hundreds of gallons blood before one comes to the point. It is very simple thing. Only our leaders of the society, they are sleeping. They are misguided themselves and misguiding others. That is the difficulty.
Indian man: Swamiji, here is another advocate
Prabhupāda: Now be advocate of Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Yes. Janma sārthaka kari' kara paropakāra.
Indian man: How long you are going to be in Hyderabad?
Prabhupāda: I am going day after tomorrow.
Indian man: To?
Prabhupāda: I'm going to Delhi.
Indian man: Most of your time you are in the States.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just now I am coming from Europe. States, Europe, then here.
Indian man: What is the method of attaining permanent and impermanent? Permanent ānanda?
Prabhupāda: Bhakti-mārga is enough. Bhakti-mārga means it includes everything. Without jñāna, there is no bhakti. The jñāna is called brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20); that is real jñāna. If you... Aiye. If you understand your position, then it is jñāna. If you do not understand your position, then where is jñāna? Do you follow? Therefore Bhagavān says, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When... So long you are ajñāna, in ignorance, you cannot be happy. You cannot be happy. But when you are in jñāna, then you'll be happy. That is the symptom of becoming jñānī. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Ātmā becomes very happy. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He has no more any lamentation and hankering. There are two things in this material world. We are hankering after something which we do not possess, and we are lamenting for something which we possessed and we have lost. This is the disease, material disease. So when one comes to the platform of jñāna, then he has no more such disease, hankering and lamenting. Here the whole world is going on, lamenting and hankering. So brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) means na śocati na kāṅkṣati and samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. And here, so long we are on the material platform, we are not samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. We are thinking, "You are different from me; I am different from you. My interest is first." You are thinking your interest is first and so on, so on. So not samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. But when you become actually jñānī, brahma-bhūtaḥ, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. When you are in distress, na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, prasannātmā, then bhakti begins. Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). So bhakti is not so easy thing.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: And "You do not know what is good. It is good. We have given up these bad habits, sinful life. It is not... But you have no idea that these are good. You have idea, but out of your definite malice you cannot appreciate. You are spending millions of dollars for giving up this LSD, and our power is so strong, as soon as one comes, he gives up. But you are so rascal, you do not appreciate. That means you are rascal. Our power is there; our reaction is there for good. That's a fact. But you cannot understand. You are so rascal; you are so fallen down. The same, like the hog. He does not know what is the..., how nice is halavā. You give him halavā; he'll not take it. He will take stool. That is his misfortune. It cannot say that halavā is bad, but he cannot appreciate because he's hog. He'll prefer to eat stool. We are giving up these nonsense, nasty things. You cannot appreciate. 'Oh, they are giving up meat-eating? It is brainwashing.' You are so low, hog life." Tell them like that. "As the hog cannot appreciate what is the value of nice halavā, similarly you cannot appreciate. Your brain has to be washed. Please come inside. We shall wash it." Is it not?
Rāmeśvara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that "You require to..., your brain to be washed. Then you'll understand the value of this. So let us treat you. Come here. You are a good candidate."
Ādi-keśava: They argue sometimes. They say, "You are saying that you guru..."
Prabhupāda: You are argue your point, but our argument is here. You are arguing from your point of view, and we shall argue from our point of view. Unless the father releases the son from the cycle of birth and death, he's not father. This is our formula.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In order to accept this, they will have to rewrite the laws.
Prabhupāda: This is the actual... Now, apart from the scriptural injunction, if one comes to the argument, then such kind of father is there in the animal society also. Cats and dogs, they also beget children, but they cannot relieve the child from the cycle of birth and death. And Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). First of all you have to see what is the actual distress in this material life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So in this life you are my father, and next time I become a cat or dog, so who cares for this father? I get another father. So who knows this law? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). The laws of nature is going on, and everything is happening. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). We are getting a type of body according to karma.
Prabhupāda: If the dress has got hand and leg, then the person who is putting on the dress, he must have hand and... So this is the conclusion. When in the śāstra it is said that "God has no leg, no hand," that... In the Upaniṣad it said that "He has no leg, but He can walk swifter than anyone." So that means He has got a different type of leg. And that is summarized, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). His vigraha, His form, is not material form. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśri... (BG 9.11). Because Kṛṣṇa comes as a human being, the foolish mūḍha-mūḍha means rascal-rascal thinks that "He is also one of us." But Kṛṣṇa says, "No, no," sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6), "I come here in My original, spiritual form." Sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā. So these are to be understood. So manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). Because they cannot understand—they cannot make distinction what is spiritual, what is material-therefore they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. First of all one has to understand what is material, what is spiritual. So unless one comes to the spiritual understanding, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Siddhaye means "for spiritual understanding." And yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). So yatatām api siddhānām. Even the jñānīs, they are supposed to be siddha, and they also miss the point, that "The Supreme has no material body, so only negation." No. There is positive body. Therefore bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān (BG 7.19). Although he has knowledge, still, his knowledge is not purified. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 10.2.32).
Prabhupāda: So unless one comes to this position, to understand Vāsudeva, whatever he is doing or occupational duty, that is waste of time. It is waste of time in this way, that the body will change, so whatever he has done in this life, body will change. So it is waste of time. After the change of the body, everything is finished. Śrama eva hi kevalam.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next verse?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
- dharmasya hy āpavargyasya
- nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate
- nārthasya dharmaikāntasya
- kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ
- (SB 1.2.9)
Prabhupāda: The dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa... (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90). Generally people take to religion for improving economic condition. It is going on. They go to the church: "O God, give us our daily bread." And they'll go to the temple: "O mother Kālī, give me this. O father Śiva, give me this." So they take it for economic development, dharma. But that is is not the proper way. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya. Dharma should be executed for stopping this material condition of life, apavarga. Pavarga. This material life is pavarga. Pa means pariśrama, hard labor. And pha means phena, so hard labor that foams comes. Pa, pha, ba. And still it is baffled, vyartha. Bha: and always fear. And ma means death. So pa, pha, ba, bha, ma. So dharma means to stop this pa, pha, ba, bha, ma.
Prabhupāda: That is from Calcutta?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's two. One comes from Calcutta, between Calcutta and Delhi, and the other goes Bombay-Delhi and Delhi-Bombay. Both of them take about seventeen or eighteen hours. The one going from Calcutta stops only once, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Kanpur, I think. Between Calcutta and Delhi it makes one stop at Kanpur. That's all. It's all air-conditioned.
Prabhupāda: And the other?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The other one stops once, I guess, but I'm not certain of the place. Between here and Bombay it makes one stop, so far I know. I'm not sure what is that stop. They're very popular trains. They run only about twice a week. But the train we were on was quite quick also. But not so quick as this. The train we were on took about twenty-two hours, Bombay-Delhi. But Rajdhani, I think, takes seventeen. It's about five hours faster.
Prabhupāda: They are also very fast. No?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That one we were on?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it was very good. And it was very much on time. (end)
| Page Title: | One comes to... (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 19 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=68, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 68 |