Prabhupāda: The karma is serving one's sense gratification. And bhakti is serving Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied in this way. We work in that way. So it is not karma. And as soon as they'll work: "Oh, I'll get this money and satisfy my senses." That is karma. So I become subject to the result. It may be good or bad. But when you work for Kṛṣṇa it is all good. There is no question of bad. And all good goes to the All Good. I'm simply His eternal servant. That's all. Another example: this finger takes some foodstuff and gives to the stomach. So when the stomach is satisfied, the finger is satisfied automatically. It does not require to take separately any food. But the karmis are trying to enjoy themselves just like the finger. If it takes a nice cake and if he thinks that why shall I give it to the stomach? So it cannot eat. It simply spoils. That's all. So we are spoiling our energy without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And therefore you are being subjected to the laws of transmigrating from one species of life.
Not require (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: It is not difficult.
Śivānanda: No. But I mean you have to consider all the different means and figure out how you're going to serve Kṛṣṇa the best way.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa can be served by his own occupation, as I described just now. Or whatever you may be. You may be a potter, you may be a florist, you may be... Whatever you may be, but you can satisfy Kṛṣṇa by his work, by your work. You do not require to qualify yourself with some specific qualification. Whatever qualification you have got, you have to dovetail it under the direction of expert spiritual master, how you can serve. That's all.
Pradyumna: What does that expert mean in the list of qualifications for a devotee? In the list of qualifications of a devotee there is one qualification, expert.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Pradyumna: What does that mean in relation to the occupation?
Prabhupāda: Expert means whatever he is doing, he must do it very nicely That's all. Suppose you are sweeping this room. You can do it very nicely, to your best knowledge. That is expert. The people will say, "Oh, you have very nicely done." Any work you do, do it very nicely. That is expert. Don't do it haphazardly. To your best talent, to your best capacity, try to finish it very nicely, whatever it may be. You are entrusted with some work. Do it nicely. That is expert. If you think that you are unable to do that work, then whatever work you can do, you take. But do it nicely. That is expert. Don't imitate. "Oh, I have no capacity to work in that way, but I want to imitate. Oh, he is doing that. I shall do that." Don't do that. That is not expert. You take up what you can do very nicely and do it nicely. We have so many works. Kṛṣṇa is not that He is static. He is dynamic force. Just like Arjuna, he was not a Vedantist, he was not a brāhmaṇa, he was not a sannyāsī. He was householder. He was military man. But he knew his business, how to do it nicely. So you do your business nicely.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Interviewer: In what... Are there fundamental differences between, or is it simply a difference in approach between your awareness and interpretations and, for example, those of the people who are involved with Zen? With some of the other Eastern concepts? Would you like to...
Prabhupāda: No, of course, I do not know what is Zen conception, or Eastern conception, but we agree with many of them, just like we agree with the concept of God presented by Bible or Koran. That is recognized. And Bhagavad-gītā is so simple that it does not require any interpretation. When things are understood directly, there is no question of interpretation. When things are not understood, then you can interpret, I can interpret. So the verses of Bhagavad-gītā are so simple that there is no question of interpretation. Unfortunately I have seen that in Bhagavad-gītā, commented by a great scholar like Dr. Radhakrishnan, the verse is translated very nicely and that is done by an Englishman, but he interprets in a different way. So when we can understand the thing very nicely, there is no question of interpretation. You see?
Hayagrīva: The Christians, I think they say, God is more than His creation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. This creation is only a part of manifestation of His energy. Insignificant. That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā.
- atha vā bahunaitena
- kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna
- viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam
- ekāṁśena sthito jagat
- (BG 10.42)
"The whole material existence is simply a partial manifestation of My energy." Ekāṁśena. Viṣṭabhyāham. Aham. "I have entered into this whole material creation and that is My partial manifestation of energy." Just like what is your, this body? The body is the, a manifestation of your energy. The seed, living entity, is put into the mother's womb and he expands. This body is expanding. But because you are limited, so much. That's all. Three feet or six feet. That's all. No more. You cannot expand more than that. This is crude example. But He's unlimited. He's expanding. Bṛhatvad bṛṁhaṇatvad iti brahma. Brahman means nothing is greater than Him and nothing can expand like Him. Bṛhatvad bṛṁhaṇatvad iti brahma. So everything is there scientific. Simply we have to administer. We have got authoritative scripture, description, answers, everything is there. It is not blind following. It is not religious fanaticism. It is actually solid ground. Simply one has to understand nicely. That's all. And there is no difficulty. So simple. Now, this... Our recommendation is simply, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So far the Sanskrit word is, that is not a problem. Everyone is chanting. So what is the difficulty? Bring any religious principle. You cannot find so easy. We don't recommend the ritualistic. That is... That is not very important thing. We are giving, say, simply chant. Ritualistic performance a little more helping. That's all. It is helping. It is not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that all the strength and all the beauty, all the wisdom, everything is there in the name. Simply by chanting we get all, everything. But just to help it. It does not... If somebody does not want our ritualistic, that is not an important thing. We don't say. We simply recommend that "You please chant." That's all. I requested you to chant. Not that I requested that you adopt our means. So that we are requesting. Let them chant. Make an experiment. It is not very difficult thing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But how will we make... We will show Him take the food while her... How will we show this? How will we produce this? That she is sitting there, offering the food...
Prabhupāda: No. You don't offer. Simply offering, and you'll simply play, "Where is the food?" That way.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not real food.
Prabhupāda: No. Or... Real food is not required. Simply that explain it. Or you can do one thing. You can offer real food. And since she will be in devotion, one may take the foodstuff and distribute to the audience and keep it. That will be also nice.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Maybe we can distribute prasāda twice in the play.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even just to... Maybe that plate we'll just give to a few people nearby.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: There are different translations. Therefore I have given this edition, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. There are interpretations. In many translations they have got interpretations. Not only in other parts of the world, but in our own country also. Just like Mahatma Gandhi. He was a great man. He has also interpreted. But the point is interpretation where required. Now, here is a fountain pen box. Everyone knows this is a fountain pen box. But if I say, "No, this is something else." That is my interpretation. Is that very nice thing? (Chuckling) Similarly, interpretation is required when things are not understood clearly. If everybody can understand this box is a fountain pen box, where is the necessity of interpretation? This is the first thing. So Bhagavad-gītā is so clear. It is just like sunlight. Sunlight does not require any other lamp. For example, I'll give you, in the first verse,
- dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre
- samavetā yuyutsavaḥ
- māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva
- kim akurvata sañjaya
- (BG 1.1)
The, dhṛtarāṣṭra uvāca. The father of Duryodhana is asking his secretary, Sañjaya. His secretary's name was Sañjaya. "Sañjaya, my boys..." Māmakaḥ. Māmakaḥ means "my sons," and pāṇḍava, "the sons of my younger brother." His younger brother's name was Pāṇḍu, and therefore his sons are known as Pāṇḍava. So mamaka, pāṇḍava. "My sons and my younger brother's sons, they assembled together for fighting." Yuyutsava. Yuyutsava means "with fighting spirit." And dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1), on the place known as Kurukṣetra, which is a place of pilgrimage, dharma-kṣetra. Kim akurvata: "After assembling there, what did they do?" That was his question. Now, this Kurukṣetra place is still existing in India. You have been in India? No.
Yoko Ono: I mean the fact that we are doing songwriting and all that. It's a waste of time, isn't it? Without Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, not waste of time. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was chanting simply. Even He was criticized by great sannyāsīs that "You have taken sannyāsa. You do not read Vedānta. You are simply chanting and dancing." He was criticized. But the thing is, when Caitanya Mahāprabhu met such stalwart scholars, He was not lagging behind. Similarly, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is sufficient. There is no doubt about it. But if somebody wants to understand this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra through philosophy, through study, through Vedānta, we are not lacking. We have got books. It is not that Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is insufficient, therefore we are recommending books. No. Not like that. Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is sufficient. But... Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He was chanting, but when there was a Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, when there was a Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, oh, He was ready to argue with him with Vedānta. So we should not be dumb. If somebody comes to argue with Vedānta philosophy, then we must be prepared. When we are preaching, there will be so many people, different types of people will come. Otherwise Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is sufficient. Sufficient. It does not require any education, any reading, anything. Simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and you get the highest perfection. That's a fact.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (1): It is to be felt.
Prabhupāda: Ah... Yes. It is to be learned, just like the electrician learns how to adjust the positive and negative wire, and as soon as it is rightly adjusted there is light. You cannot say, "No, no, why it shall be adjusted like this? It can be done like this." Oh, that will not give you light. You cannot speculate on the science. One plus... Two plus two equal to four. You cannot speculate, "Oh, can it not be three? Cannot be five?" No, that is not possible. You have to accept this two plus two equal to four. So the same example: so long it was not being adjusted to the right point, there was no light. So this adjustment... Suppose there is failure in my home. For this adjustment I have to call an experienced man. You may be a lawyer, you may be very nice thinker, but so far electricity is concerned, you have to call for a mistrī, who may not be learned like you but he knows the art, how to do it, expert. Similarly, such a vast subject to understand God, you do not require the help of an expert?
Guest (1): I did not take that...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't mean you. Anyone. Anyone. If for ordinary things we have to call for an expert, to understand God is it not necessary to approach an expert? What do you think, Manuel?
Manuel: Yes, yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: But maybe...
Prabhupāda: There may be some exceptions, but, I mean to say, just like the cow dung is stool—this is an exception—but why this exception is accepted, that if you scientifically examine, analyze, you find it is correct?
Prof. Kotovsky: That is due to analyze. That's right. That's from common sense point of view.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, another, another instance is there. Just like conchshell. Conchshell is the bone of an animal. So according to Vedic instruction, if you touch the bone of an animal, you become impure. You have to take bath. You become impure. But this conchshell is kept in the deity room because it's accepted as pure by the Vedas. So my point is that we accept Vedic laws in such a way, without argument, accept because it is stated in the Vedas, and that is the principle followed by scholars. If you can substantiate your statement by quoting from the Vedas, then it is accepted. You do not require to substantiate in other ways if you prove by Vedic quotation. Śruti-pramāṇa. It is called śruti-pramāṇa. There are different kinds of pramāṇa, evidences. Just like in the legal court if you can give quotation from the law books, your statement is accepted, similarly, all statements which you give, if they are supported by śruti-pramāṇa... I think you know. The Vedas are known as Śrutis.
Dr. Singh: Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ.
Prabhupāda: Then Kṛṣṇa taught him Bhagavad-gītā. So he remained a kṣatriya. But Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3). So business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter whether you are kṣatriya, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. It doesn't matter.
Dr. Singh: But surely Kṛṣṇa is not unsatisfied.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Singh: Kṛṣṇa is fully satisfied already.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is satisfied because He is the supreme. He does not require your help to be satisfied. But if you help Him, then you become satisfied.
Dr. Singh: So we satisfy ourself by...
Prabhupāda: That is the duty. Just like these fingers. Suppose if this finger is not working, I have got another finger. But if this finger does not satisfy me, that means it is diseased condition. It is not a normal condition. Similarly, we are parts and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). So we are parts and... If we do not satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that means we are in diseased condition, unhealthy.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Man and woman. So if you want to get liberation from this material world, then that attachment should be reduced to nil. Otherwise, simply for that attachment, you'll have to take birth and rebirth, either as human being or as demigod or as an animal, as a serpent, as a bird, as a beast. You have to take birth. So this basic principle of attachment, increasing, is not our business. It is decreasing. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalam. This is the general tendency, but if one can reduce and stop it, that is first class. Therefore our Vedic system is that first of all a boy is trained as a brahmacārī, no sex life. Brahmacārī. He goes to the teacher's home. (pause—a devotee chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa over loudspeaker is very loud.) Who is this? Stop it. (break) The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇāśrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required on principle, but because we are attached to that, therefore there are some regulative principles. Sex life... It is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that
- puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etaṁ
- tayor mitho hṛdaya-granthim āhuḥ
- ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair
- janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti
- (SB 5.5.8)
It is said that this is the basic principle of material life: attachment for man or woman. And when they are united, when a man and a woman is united, that attachment becomes increased. And that increased attachment will induce him for gṛha, means home; kṣetra, means land; suta, means children; āpta, friendship, or society; and vitta, vitta means money. In this way, gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittaiḥ, he becomes entangled. Janasya moho 'yam. This is the illusion. And by this illusion he becomes ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8), "I am this body, and anything in relationship with this body, that is mine."
Devotee: In India, somebody said...
Prabhupāda: No India, of India, don't talk of India. Talk of the philosophy. If there is no devotion, Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything, either in India or in your country. It is not... Kṛṣṇa's not obliged to accept anything costly because it is very tasteful. Kṛṣṇa has many tasteful dishes in Vaikuṇṭha. He's not hankering after your food. He accepts your devotion. That out of... Bhaktyā, tad aham aśnāmi. Bhaktyā upahṛtam, real thing is devotion. Not the food. Kṛṣṇa does not accept any food of this material world. But He accepts only the devotion. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26), tad aham aśnāmi bhaktyā upahṛtam. "Because it has been offered to Me with devotional love," that is required. One who has no devotional love, from his hand... Therefore we do not allow anyone to cook who is not a devotee. Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything from the hands of a nondevotee. Why should He accept? He's not hungry. He does not require any food. He accepts only the devotion. That's all. That is the main point. So one has to become a devotee, not a good cooker. But if he's a devotee, then he'll be a good cook also. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. Automatically he'll become a good cook. Therefore one has to become devotee only; then all other good qualification will automatically be there. And if he's a nondevotee, any good qualification has no value. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). He's on the mental plane. So he has no good qualification. (break) The time?
Bob: That's so.
Prabhupāda: Then the wings fly there, and the jaws catch the food, and after all he puts into the mouth. Similarly, as in this body, this particular example, the stomach is the enjoyer, similarly, the central figure of whole cosmic manifestation, material or spiritual, the central figure is Kṛṣṇa, God. He's the enjoyer. We can understand. As in my this particular body, the body is also a creation. The body has got the same mechanism as you will find out in the whole universe. The same mechanical, anywhere you go, you find even in animals or human body or in the cosmic manifestation. Almost the same mechanism. So as you understand very easily that in this body, my body, your body, the stomach is the enjoyer. Or there is a central enjoyer. And the stomach is friend also of everyone. Because if we cannot digest food, you see, then all other limbs of the body they become weak. Therefore stomach is the friend. It is digesting and distribute the energy to all the limbs of the body. Is it not?
Bob: It is so.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, the central stomach of the whole creation is God, or Kṛṣṇa. He's the enjoyer and He's the friend. He's maintaining everyone. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Therefore He's friend of everyone. And everywhere... He is maintaining means everywhere He's the proprietor. Just like a king can maintain the whole country, citizens, because he's the proprietor. Without being proprietor, how he can become everyone's friend? So these things have to be understood, that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor, and Kṛṣṇa is friend. If you know these three things, then your knowledge is full. You do not require to understand anything more. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa by these three formulas, then your knowledge is complete. You don't require any more knowledge. But people will not agree. "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be proprietor? Hitler shall be proprietor. Yayha Khan should be proprietor. (laughter) Nixon shall be proprietor." That is going on. Therefore you are in trouble. But if you understand these three things only, then your knowledge is finished. But he'll not accept, he'll put forward so many impediments for understanding these three things.
Devotee: So, the positions of Bali-mardana and Karandhara, they have to remain stationary so much. We have to consider that...
Prabhupāda: No, stationary one thing is that the Bali-mardana, especially Karandhara, he has got already extensive field locally.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He has to manage so many things. So extensively touring means for the mission expanding, that is the point. Simply touring is not required, but doing something substantial to increase the interest of the society. That is the point. So, Karandhara has got many department supervisors(?), so he can be given to work, and sometimes go away (indistinct). So, his position is like that. And similarly Bali-mardana's position is there. He can be also if he has got many engagements, many departments managed there. So he may not tour but our only aim is that one must take multi-responsibilities.
Mrs. Keating: ...and you share.
Prabhupāda: Yes. By serving I share. Just like this milk. The hand helps me, brings it here. I drink, and as soon I drank, the benefit is shared by all the parts of body. Is it not?
Ambassador: That's true.
Prabhupāda: You do not require to pass the milk through the finger, then with the toes. No. Simply put the tea, tea or milk, within, and every part of the body is satisfied. Just like you pour water in the root of the tree. The energy immediately, I mean to say, distributed to the leaves, to the tree, to the flowers, to the fruits, everything, immediately. Similarly, there must be something which is the root of everything. That is God. The Vedānta philosophy says God means the origin, the source of everything. That is God. Now you can imagine how that source should be. That is also explained. But God, or the Absolute Truth, is that, is the original source of everything.
Ambassador: Are you acquainted with Swami Ranganathanandaji? You have met him?
Prabhupāda: I am not very much well known to him, but sometimes I met him.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is also not because of the development of consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Everything is development of consciousness. So when one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that is perfect. Consciousness is there even in the tree, but that is not developed. When you cut the tree, it feels. Even a child their consciousness is not developed. Sometimes operation in the body of a child does not require anaesthetic, because they do not feel much. Can go on surgical operation on the child's body and they will feel little. Because the consciousness is not developed.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So according to the consciousness...
Prabhupāda: Development.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When a person becomes very old, he should be very intelligent.
Prabhupāda: No no. It is a question of consciousness of the body. That does not mean when a dog becomes very old he becomes very experienced. No. Consciousness according to the body. The same theory. Because a child's body is not developed, the consciousness is also not developed. Hare Kṛṣṇa. And these rascals say that because the consciousness is not developed, he has no soul. Soul is there even within the tree. But because the consciousness is not developed, the sensation is less.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So those self-centered...
Prabhupāda: Self? They have no information of the self. These rascals, they think, "I am this body." Ātmā means body, ātmā means self, ātmā means mind. So this ātmābhimānī means bodily concept of life. Bālaka. Bālaka means a fool, child, bālaka. Ātmābhimānināṁ bālakānām. Those who are under the bodily concept of life, they are like children, fools, or animals.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I plan to expound the principle of transmigration through this verse.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Transmigration. Bhramadbhiḥ. Bhramadbhiḥ means transmigration, wandering from one body to another. Just like I am here. I have got my this body, a dress, covering. And when I go India, this is not required. So they are taking that the body has evolved like that. But no. Here, under certain condition, I accept this dress. In another place, under certain condition, I accept another dress. So I am the important, not this dress. But these rascals are studying the dress only. That is called ātmābhimānām, considering of the dress, body. Bālakānām. Just see. They bring here dogs for passing stool. Dog stool is so very much infectious. The diphtheria and other germs, they are grown. But these rascals they do not know. They distribute dog stool everywhere. But cow dung, there is no cow dung. Vedas says cow dung is pure. That is neglected. Dog stool is pure. This is their intelligence. They give signboard: "Littering illegal"?
Karandhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They are, while working, they're getting money, but they're not independent.
Guest (1): No, I understand that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So without money, if you become independent, that is intelligence.
Śrutakīrti: That was her question.
Prabhupāda: Ah. That, if you can get Kṛṣṇa, you'll...
Guest (1): But how do you, what I mean is how do you, how can you...
Prabhupāda: That "how to," that we shall teach, as we are teaching others. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated,
- yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ
- manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ
- yasmin sthito na duḥkhena
- guruṇāpi vicālyate
- (Bg. 6.20-23)
Yaṁ labdhvā. You get something, which getting, you will be satisfied: "I don't want anything more." That is highest gain. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Cāparam. Another kind of benefit is not required. So yasmin sthitaḥ. If we remain in that position, then even there is hardest difficulty of life, he'll not be disturbed. (pause) Where is Paṇḍitjī?
Devotee: I'll get him. (pause)
Haṁsadūta: Should I put on the light, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sit down. (pause) He gets such thing, when he gets it, he'll consider that he doesn't want anything more. That is the greatest profit. And the result is that when one gets that thing, even he is in the greatest difficulty of life, he's not disturbed.
Prabhupāda: He has written a big philosophy on sex life. Does it require any education? Anyone knows how to use sex life. And he has written big book. Similarly, defense also: they are making big, big arrangements, atomic bomb. I am making atomic bomb, you are making... Similarly, sleeping: big, big skyscraper building; eating: start thousands of slaughterhouse. Formerly also there were meat-eaters. But did they maintain slaughterhouse? "All right, I want to eat meat. Just go in the forest. Kill one animal. That's all. Pick it up." So this advancement of civilization means advancement of slaughterhouse, advancement of skyscraper building, advancement of atom bomb, advancement of Freud philosophy. This is advancement. The subject matter is the same, which does not require any education. Nobody requires education on this subject matter. Even the birds and beasts, they know what is their eatable. And they eat and they live. Now the advancement... Agricultural institute, a big college, how to improve agriculture. Crude people, they are producing also. Without agricultural college, they are producing sufficiently grain and eating. Still they do so. Do they depend on agricultural education? Real education is how to solve the problems of life, birth, death, old age, and how to go back to home, back to... That is education. This is not education. This is simply waste of time. Because you cannot change your destiny. Now, take for example, there are so many agricultural improvements. Does it mean that there is no person who is needy? There are so many needy persons. But has the agricultural education improved their lot? No. Starving people are still there. Rather, those who can produce, they're producing and throwing into the sea. They'll not part with it for the poor men who are starving. Then where is the advancement of education? You produce more by advanced agricultural process and then throw it into the ocean. Real purpose was to produce more to see that nobody's hungry. That is not being done. There is no sympathy. This is not civilization. This is a hodge-podge. Simply wasting labor. That's all. Now here, the Parliament, now what is the use of Parliament? They have lost their empire. What is the use of Parliament? Formerly they had to rule all over the world. So representative, Parliament... Now they have got... What they have got? But still they have got the Parliament, the bodyguard, the King, Queen. Show only. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this so-called advancement of civilization has no meaning. Simply waste of time.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Mrs. Wells: How about teaching them to love themselves.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is loving themselves. That is...
Mrs. Wells: Do you think so?
Prabhupāda: That does not require teaching. How to eat... You love your body, therefore you eat.
Mrs. Wells: I didn't mean that sort of love.
Prabhupāda: Then what kind of love?
Mrs. Wells: Loving your own being for what God gave you. Loving yourself as you are, accepting yourself. That's very difficult, you know.
Prabhupāda: I do not follow. What is that, they are...
Father Tanner: Loving your own personality.
Prabhupāda: Loving your personality... First of all you know what you are, what is your personality.
Father Tanner: But...
Prabhupāda: If you do not know what you are, then how you can love yourself?
Mrs. Wells: This is the problem.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And what you are. If I ask you what you are, can you answer?
Mrs. Wells: No.
Mother: But you, aren't you translating your books still?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right.
Mother: Isn't that a great joy, a great joy to you?
Prabhupāda: That's... For translating of books it does not require... Of course, it requires when the purport of the translation is given. Otherwise,... Real thing is culture. That education is culture. Simply money-making education for maintaining this body, that education will not satisfy any more. Just like I told you, that despite all arrangements of education, why the young men are turning to be hippies? That is my question.
Mother: Oh, but not your followers. Your followers are not being hippies, people who follow you. Therefore you've got the people who you could help to become cultured like you.
Prabhupāda: So my father educated me in a different way. Therefore I have come to this stage. My father never allowed me even to drink tea.
Mother: Well, I'm disappointed in you. I came to see you because I felt that, being so cultured, you would want all your boys to have this culture and to have this, to have the best...
Revatīnandana: We've got, we've got this culture.
Mother: Oh, but you haven't, you see. You're all, you're all young boys...
Revatīnandana: No, your culture, your culture we don't have.
Mother: ...but you're not mature yet.
Revatīnandana: But the culture that he has, he's giving to us.
Mother: Yes, but you're not mature. It takes years to become mature. Hurt, pain, happiness, everything together... You find God? Yes, I've found God. We all... I feel very close to God, and I feel very happy. But I would also still wish to be educated. And fortunately, I was given the chance to have an education.
Prabhupāda: Education means to know God.
Prabhupāda: No, first of all, if we can get it easily...
Mother: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Our training is... First of all, try to understand. We... Just like you have got four divisions in the body for maintaining the body. So the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. The leg is doing its own work, walking. The hand is doing its own work. And the belly's doing its own work. And the brain is doing own work. It does not mean that when the brain is work, it does not require the help of the leg. But a brain does not require to learn the business of the leg. This is the idea. The brain requires the help of the leg. But does not mean that brain has to learn how to walk also.
Mother: Well, I'm a nurse, and so that is why I would like...
Prabhupāda: So there must be division of work. So you take from... When there is necessity of brain work, you take help from him. And when there is need of the walking, take leg, help from the leg. It is a cooperation. Not that everyone has to learn everything.
Mother: Yes. Well, as I say...
Prabhupāda: It does not...
Mother: I myself did a training. I became a nurse.
Prabhupāda: You are asking us "Why you are not taking medical education?" Why we shall take?
Mother: Because if everybody...
Mother: But he had a false religious experience, due to the LSD.
Prabhupāda: No, I am talking generally, not of him, that everything must be, there must be division. Just like naturally we have got division. The whole object is to keep the body fit, but there is division: the head division, the arm division, the stomach division, and the leg division. So similarly, there must be four classes of men in the society: the intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men, and the laborer class of men. Everything is required. But not that the intelligent class of man has to learn the business of the laborer class of men. That is not required. Just try to understand. The laborer class of men, they are required. But one who is intelligent class, he, he cannot be trained up as laborer, ordinary laborer in the factory. That is mistake. He must work according to his capacity. If he's intelligent, he must be preacher, he must be God conscious. He would educate people that "This eating, sleeping is not all. There is God. You should understand. You have got a relationship with Him. If you want to have better life next, then you must become God conscious, you must be sinless." These things are required in the society. (loud noise of jet going over). What is the use of talking?
Mother: Father, I understand that you have translated ten books.
Prabhupāda: Now again. Again the same question.
Banker: Seeking what you call happiness. Just as in your life you get up at three o'clock, you do a certain thing at that time, go around on a schedule, so you don't have to think about the mundane, and you seek the eternal happiness.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I have already explained. There must be a class of men like me. They are called brāhmaṇa. They should help others. One who cannot rise so early, they will help him by his knowledge. He, the man who cannot rise early in the morning and cannot take the brahminical principle, śūdra, kṣatriya, vaiśya, he should be helped with the knowledge acquired by the brāhmaṇa. Just like the same example. The leg. Leg is not brain. The brain will give direction to the leg, "You go this side." Then it is perfect. The leg has no brain, but the brain is there. If he takes the advice of the brain and goes... Just like... It is called the logic of blind and lame. There is a lame man and there is a blind man. The lame man cannot walk, and the blind man cannot see. They should join. The blind man took the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man giving direction, and the blind man is going nicely. So by the cooperation of the blind and the lame, the work is done perfectly. Andha-kañjatā-nyāya. Similarly, it is not required that everyone has to become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible. So if the brāhmaṇa and the śūdra combine together, work, then both their lives will be perfect. Here you cannot expect everyone as brāhmaṇa, in this material world. That is not possible. Because in the material world three qualities are working. So one may be brāhmaṇa, another may be kṣatriya, another may be vaiśya, another may... So they should cooperate. Then everyone's life will be perfect. That is the program. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are creating brāhmaṇas. So others, they should cooperate. Then their life will be also perfect. Just like these people are preaching that "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and refrain from sinful activities." So if people take advice from these men, simple thing... Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is not difficult. Anyone can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And no illicit sex life. No... Even one cannot follow these restrictions, if he chants, he will be benefited. But if he chants and follows these restrictive rules, then he will be perfect in this life. And that is not difficulty. Suppose if I do not eat meat. We are not eating meat. We are not dying. We are eating so many nice things, prepared from vegetables, grains, milk.
Guest: Quite right.
Prabhupāda: That is the.... Now it is the duty of the secular government.... Now if somebody is claiming that, "I am brāhmaṇa", then government should force him to become actually a brāhmaṇa. That is government's duty, that is secular state. Not that let people go to hell, we don't care for them, that is not required.
Guest: Yes, but if a brāhmaṇa is not behaving...
Prabhupāda: If you are claiming to become a brāhmaṇa, you must act as a brāhmaṇa.
Lady Guest: (indistinct) of a brāhmaṇas.
Guest: And actions and duty....
Prabhupāda: That should be the platform.
Guest: Because if a brāhmaṇa goes on drinking and abusing...
Prabhupāda: That is not brāhmaṇa. How can that be brāhmaṇa? That is a śūdra, caṇḍāla. Then what is the difference between a.... But they are claiming brāhmaṇa by birth. That is not allowed in the śāstra.
Guest: No, no.
Prabhupāda: It is not allowed.
Umāpati: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is not austerity. That is licentiousness.
Umāpati: Yes. It comes from a time when we admire swashbuckling and being free, so-called, in the material sense.
Prabhupāda: That is reaction. The rich man is trying to become a poor man. "Let me see what is the advantage of the poor man." That's right. Your country does not require to lie down like that. You have got enough arrangement. But it is a fashion. That's all. So fashion is not austerity. That is sense gratification. It appears like austerity, but it is sense gratification. Real austerity is not to make any sense gratification, simply to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is real austerity.
Umāpati: So if Kṛṣṇa required us to sleep on the beach, then...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Umāpati: ...that would not be... if Kṛṣṇa required us to sleep on the beach, that would not be sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: No. And why Kṛṣṇa will require like that? Do you mean to say Kṛṣṇa is a madman?
Umāpati: No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like in an empty slogan. The slogan is empty.
Prabhupāda: So that is not required. It must be practical. Empty slogan has no meaning.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The way it's written...
Devotee: Why was, why was Lord Rāma letting Rāvaṇa live in Laṅkā?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: Why was He permitting him to live there? He was irreligious. He did not trust in God. Why was Lord Rāma letting him...?
Prabhupāda: No, no. He was killed therefore. He was not allowed to live there. Therefore Rāmacandra went there to kill him. "You rascal. You must be killed." Why do you say that he was allowed?
Devotee: Well...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: For some time, for some time.
Prabhupāda: For sometimes every thief flourishes. That is another thing. But he must be punished.
Devotee: Hmm. He was punished.
Prabhupāda: You can cheat for some time everyone, but you cannot be allowed to cheat everyone for all the time. That is not possible. (break) ...law. Therefore Lord Rāmacandra could create millions of Sītā. So the purpose was to kill this atheist. Therefore, it was... (end)
Hṛdayānanda: With all varieties.
Prabhupāda: Must be varieties. If in this inferior nature there are so many varieties, so how many superior varieties are there. That you can simply think of. That is acintya. Even in this material world, there are different planets. One planet is superior than the other planet. The inhabitants of one planet are far, far superior than other planets. Just like there is a planet which is called Siddhaloka. Here, in this planet, people practice mystic yoga for getting so much wonderful power. They are naturally... Here also we see. Just like if I want to fly I cannot. But another small bird, he'll fly. Is it not? I... If I have to live within the water, I have to make so much arrangement. But a small fish is in the big ocean; he's living there. Yes. So... But because one bird is flying in the sky without any machine, it does not mean that he has become superior to me. But comparatively I see it has got superior power. So these varieties are there. You cannot deny it. So similarly, as in this planet we are trying to get some mystic power by yoga practice, there, in other planets, it is automatically there. They do not require any machine from going one planet to another. They can simply, by will, they can go. Even in this yog... in these material planets, this planet also, there are yogis. They take early in the morning bath in four places, at Jagannātha Purī, at Rāmeśvaram and what is called, Haridvar?
Devotee: Benares.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Since I am conditioned in this material body...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, as soon as I condition, I create an environment which is material. Therefore these so-called scientists, they have no eyes to see the spirit. They take this material condition as the cause of the spirit. And then again, when they find that in spite of presence of these chemicals, the life is not there, they are bewildered. They say, "Yes, we are trying to improve." Therefore they do not find the cells in the dead body.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say the cells are also dead in a dead body.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, they do not find it. Cells may be dead or they do not find the cells, whatever it may be, but it was dependent on the life. (break) ...with my so many servants. When I die, the servants also go away. So you cannot say that "He was living because the servants were there." You cannot say.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because we are individual persons.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The master has gone away. Therefore servants do not require to serve. They have dispersed. But you say that "Because the servants were there, the master was existing. Now the servants have left him, he is dead." You cannot say like that. (break) ...ever car, we are under control. Why the red light? Red light is control.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually we are controlled every step.
Prabhupāda: Every step.
Prabhupāda: Yes, for them the death is the only solution.
Prajāpati: Rascals like such books, Prabhupāda, because it requires no commitment on their part. To read such men—"Oh, yes, that's very nice. I can read them and put them down." But it doesn't require me to trust in God or to do anything for the world.
Prabhupāda: No. Books are written in favor: "If you want to know more about us, then here is book." Because from books, generally, we get knowledge. Otherwise book is not required. Very brilliant light.
Śrutakīrti: It's an airplane.
Prabhupāda: And if the light is little more brilliant, that means finished. If the same light becomes little more brilliant, that means finished, fall down immediately. It is a big aeroplane? (break)
Prajāpati: Several years ago you gave a series of lectures in New York on atonement, that are very famous, and devotees, they relish them very much. Prāyaścitta. And this is also in Christian theology to a large extent, plus another concept called feeling very sorry for one's sinful activities.
Prabhupāda: Repentant. Repentant?
Prajāpati: No so much repentance. It is called...
Karandhara: Well, they say, "That's going on anyway."
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then there is no question of philosophy. Finish. Everything one. That... This philosophy was discussed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His mother. He was eating dirt, and mother gave Him sandeśa. So He did not care to take sandeśa. He was eating dirt. Then mother came, "My dear boy, why you are eating dirt? Here is sandeśa. I have given you." "Mother, what is the difference between sandeśa and dirt? They are all the same. (laughing) They are all the same." "Yes, my dear boy, You are impersonalist philosopher. But it is required. Just like the water jug is also earth, made of earth. It is earth. And this ground is also earth. But when you have to keep water you require this water jug, not this earth." That is relativity. If you have to take work, then you cannot say, "Well, this is also earth, this is also... Why...? The pot is not required. Put water here." Then you will suffer, no water. So this kind of philosophy was discussed when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a child. (break) ...and the tree is the same thing. But when I walk, I require the stick, not this tree. (break) ...The dogs must be on lash (leash). If somebody does not do that, he is criminal. So if he pleads in the court, "There is no difference, dogs on the lash or without lash. Why you are punishing me?" But will that be accepted?
Karandhara: Well, the judge says, "There is no difference whether I put you in jail or not."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's it. Then he has to accept jail. He should not defend himself. "Never mind. I go to jail." Why he appoints a lawyer to defend himself?
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. She is very educated. Now, her husband made very great attempt for publishing book, but there is no sufficient customer. Now the press is going to be sold, and nobody customer. That is letter-setting press. Now it is obsolete. So they were perplexed. She wanted that I shall purchase. And what shall I do with this press? Letter setting is now abolished. That is not good job now. There must be litho press or, what is called, offset. Yes.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if... Since Kṛṣṇa is the power that gives the demigods the ability to render everything, then why is it recommended in the Nectar of Devotion that a Vaiṣṇava should worship Gaṇapati?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa worship, everyone. Just like we worship also ordinary man if it gives us facility to worship Kṛṣṇa. We go to somebody and worship him, flatter him, because he will give some money, and it will be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. The man is not worshipable, but he will help us to worship Kṛṣṇa. Thereby he will be helped and we will be also helped, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied that "My devotee has brought some money from this rascal. All right." That is... (laughter) So Gaṇapati is also devotee. So Gaṇapati, it is not required, but sometimes we do. Just like gopīs, they worshiped Goddess Durgā, Kātyāyanī. They did not require, but the social system is that. But they asked that Mother Kātyāyanī, give us the opportunity to have Kṛṣṇa as our husband." The aim is Kṛṣṇa. Generally, they go to worship Devī Durgā for asking material benefit. Dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi yaśo dehi, the things which we want in material... But the gopīs, they do not go for any material things. For Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, we can go to any demigod. Why Gaṇapati? Everyone. But our prayer should be, "Please give us Kṛṣṇa." Then it is correct.
Prabhupāda: Well, then you are welcome immediately.
Guest (5): And that is my desire, all, inner desire.
Prabhupāda: Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. If you show example how to keep the temple neat and clean, then these foreigners also will learn from you. (break) ...those who are earning money, they should... But we are giving them books. So our books are worth about three thousand rupees. But we are simply collecting eleven hundred.
Guest (4): All that they wanted, I understood from the talk, informatory, informations I mean, in their own dialect.
Prabhupāda: Well, one thing is that at least in Bengal they do not require much information because this Caitanya Movement is their movement. It is simply a plea. Everyone know that Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to distribute the Hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. This is the essence, and let them help, prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā, by life, by money, by words. This is the movement. Why they are anxious to get information more? That is a plea. Everyone knows what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, at least in Bengal.
Bhavānanda: I tell them that when they ask.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Nitāi: The vaiśyas?
Prabhupāda: Business, this rascal business, no.
Nitāi: No?
Prabhupāda: Business means if you have got extra grains or extra foodstuff, you can sell where there is necessity, there is want. That is business. We are not going to open mills and factories and... No. We are not going to do that. That is śūdra business. The real business is that you produce enough food grains, as much as possible, and you eat and distribute. That's all. This is business. He does not require any so high technical education. Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Is it difficult? This is the business. The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk, and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a kṣatriya, work as a ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups, according to his capacity. Either as a brāhmaṇa, or as a kṣatriya, or as a vaiśya, or as a śūdra.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Guest: As you rightly say, that if we do anything, actively, then they may send your boys going out of India, foreigners. Americans.
Yaśomatīnandana: They will kick us.
Guest: "Yes. Throw them out." They will argue on that ground and they will say that "You are not required. You are nuisance," or whatever the reasons.
Prabhupāda: Any, no reason. No reason. No reason. "We don't want you."
Guest: Without finding any reason. But if that's so, then we may propagate, try to get another, then they'll again take the same action, because they'll know that we are trying to create the public opinion against the government. They can again take the same action of removing the boys.
Prabhupāda: No, same action, but that is our propaganda, preach.
Guest: Then on the propaganda also, the principle is same. Then they will remove them.
Prabhupāda: That we are already doing. We are holding meeting.
Bhāgavata: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you can tell us the qualifications of guru and the qualifications of disciple?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very simple thing. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). So this is the qualification of celā. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta. One has to accept a guru. Who? Jijñāsu. What kind of jijñāsu. (Hindi) Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. "What is the best ultimate goal of life?" Such person will require a guru. Those who are interested with these material affairs, they do not require a guru.
Dr. Patel: They require Einstein as a guru.
Prabhupāda: No. No, no. Real guru means those who are interested in these material affairs, they do not require a guru. It is... It is a fashion. "Such man has kept such and such guru." Just like keeping a dog. This is not guru.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) That is good.
Prabhupāda: Keeping a guru, and "Guru, come here, come here, guru." (laughter) Not like that. That is useless. And this is the qualification of celā. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. One who is interested with the Absolute Truth. That requires, he requires a guru. And guru means, śābde pare ca niṣṇātam. Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam (SB 11.3.21). This is the qualification. Śābde, he's, in the Vedic knowledge, he's perfect. Śābde pare ca. Niṣṇātam. He has immersed himself in that ocean. And the result is brahmaṇy upaśama..., he has no more material interests, simply Brahman. That's all. How simple it is, the qualification of celā and qualification of guru. As soon as Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as his guru, He immediately gave him a slap: aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11). "You are talking like very learned man. You are fool number one."
Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavatam you'll find the dākṣa-yajña, dākṣa-yajña. Dākṣa-yajña. There was a goat, and that goat was cut and it was added to the head of Dakṣa Mahārāja.
Indian man (4): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is described in the Bhāgavatam.
Indian man (4): Yajñas are only done for certain aims actually, and are not required at all.
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). That is our...
Indian man (4): The saṅkīrtana be our yajña.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) It is stated in the śāstra, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. Kalau, in this age...
Indian man (3): Why discuss these things for others? We are not meat-eaters, nor we do... (laughs)
Prabhupāda: He's going in a different way.
Indian man (3): As a Vaiṣṇava. No, that is what I'm...
Prabhupāda: No, you do not understand, that is the defect...
Indian man (3): That is my misfortune, that is my misfortune because I am a little fixed-cult man. But then you explain me what I should behave.
Prabhupāda: Suppose you don't believe in meat-eating, can you stop?
Dr. Patel: (break) ...that is completely verse.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I said that in the Vedas there are so many injunctions for different men, because the population, the sattva, rajo, tamo-guṇa, some of them are śūdras, some of them are kṣatriyas, some of them are vaiśyas, some of them are brāhmaṇa; therefore different ways of inducing them is there. But because something is there for inducing the śūdras in the Vedas, you cannot say, "No, this is not required." That is also required, for the śūdras, not for you.
Indian man (4): No, but then he...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedas means helping everyone. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ.
Indian man (3): It is the māyā.
Prabhupāda: By killing, yes. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Your aim should be to go above this qualities of material.
Indian man (4): That is what he wants.
Prabhupāda: But Vedas are describing... When Vedas are describing something for the benefit of the śūdras, because it is meant for the śūdras, you cannot condemn it.
Chandobhai: There are so many commentaries on Bhagavad-gītā, Upaniṣads, Vedānta...
Prabhupāda: Just like this Dayānanda, he did not care for anyone. He became ācārya. He started.
Chandobhai: As I understand, or I am given to understand is that... (break) ...they accepted it...
Prabhupāda: The... (break) That is not required now. For the time being. That is not required now. (break)
Dr. Patel: ...bhāvam eka-stham anupaśyati, tata eva ca vistāraṁ brahma sampadyate tadā (BG 13.31).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because... Just these elements, material elements, bhūta, they are Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore one who knows Kṛṣṇa, he does not take anything as material. Because it is Kṛṣṇa's energy. So Kṛṣṇa's energy means... What is called?
Dr. Shah: Property.
Prabhupāda: No, there is a verse. Śakti-śaktimator abhedaḥ. Abhedaḥ. Śakti means energy, and the śaktimān... That... śaktimān is called śaktimat. So because it comes from the śaktimān, śaktimān, the all spirit, therefore those who are very advanced devotees, for, in their vision, there is nothing material.
Chandobhai: There is no separation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is nothing. Abheda. Because it is admitted that bhinnā prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. So this is śakti. And śaktimat is Kṛṣṇa. So when it is emanating from Kṛṣṇa... Therefore it is called inferior. Inferior. Inferior.
Chandobhai: Nānya-gāminā.
Prabhupāda: Nānya-gāminā. Because cetāḥ, mind is very flickering. So unless you fix up your mind under some regulative principles, then it is not possible. (indistinct) Everyone becomes paramahaṁsa: "Oh, I am now advanced. I do not require all these regulative principles."
Dr. Patel: What is paramahaṁsa?
Prabhupāda: Paramahaṁsa means he's above. Paramo nirmatsarānām (SB 1.1.2). That is paramahaṁsa.
Chandobhai: Paramaṁ puruṣaṁ divyaṁ yāti pārthānucintayan.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramaṁ puruṣaṁ divyaṁ yāti.
Dr. Patel: Pārthānucintayan. By thinking about... (break)
Prabhupāda: Smartavyaḥ satato viṣṇuḥ. Therefore one has to think of Viṣṇu always, twenty-four hours, in so many ways.
Chandobhai: Kaviṁ purāṇam anuśāsitāram.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Come to Me in Goloka Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is open, but an intelligent person will think that "Why shall I go to Svarga-loka? Why shall I remain here? Why shall I go to Pitṛloka? Let me go direct to Kṛṣṇa." Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). That is intelligent, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, to take to Kṛṣṇa wholeheartedly. That is real intelligence. Otherwise mūḍha, whatever he may be.
Dr. Patel: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26).
Prabhupāda: Ah. And to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, it does not require any expensive material. If you have nothing to offer, you can offer patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ. He will be satisfied. And performing this yajña and other, oh, you have got to collect so much ghee, so much grain, so much mantras, so many learned brāhmaṇas and this and that. You have nothing to do. Anywhere, any part of the world, universal. Any man, poor man, rich man, can offer Kṛṣṇa whatever He has got. Kṛṣṇa is satisfied.
Dr. Patel: Tad ahaṁ bhakty-upahṛtam.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Bhaktya-upahṛtam aśnāmi prayatātmanaḥ. Yes. "Because he has offered Me with faith and devotion and love, I accept it." So when Kṛṣṇa eats something from your hand, then what remains? You gain perfection. All perfection is there. If Kṛṣṇa is accepting something from your hand, "Yes, I will eat it."
Dr. Patel: Of the embodied people.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Gṛha-vratānām means those who are attracted to this... Gṛha means this worldly family life. Gṛha-vrata. Gṛha. Gṛha-vrata. So those who have decided that "We shall remain in this gṛha, for them, either personally or from others or by conference, the matir na kṛṣṇe."
Dr. Patel: They do not have that mind fixed on Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they cannot. Why they cannot? Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamiśram (SB 7.5.30). This gṛha-vrata means their sense enjoyment. This gṛhastha life is a concession for sense gratification, license. Actually, it is not required. Sex life is not required. But those who cannot avoid the sex life, they are given some license, "All right, you enjoy sex life, marry one woman, remain as faithful husband and wife." So unless one determines that "This is not my life, gṛha-vrata..." Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). In another place it is said also, by Sukadeva Gosvāmī, one who cannot understand what is his self-interest, apaśyatām ātma-tattvam, actually what is needed, what is the need of the soul, gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām... The gṛha-vrata and gṛhamedhi, these two words are for persons who are too much attached to this worldly life. So this determination already is there, that "Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of everything." Iti matvā bhajante mām. One who understands this perfectly well, he can be engaged in the matter of rendering service to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is very difficult. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato va.
Prabhupāda: ...if they kill Kṛṣṇa, then all these questions does not come. You see? Because they want to kill the cows. And if he worships Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme, then he has to accept these principles. Therefore they want to kill Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee: So they can kill the cows.
Girirāja: "The transcendental body of Kṛṣṇa did not require any protection, but to instruct us on the importance of the cow, the Lord was smeared over with cow dung and washed with the urine of the cow, sprinkled with the dust raised by the walking of the cow." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...otherwise, yes. We shall come
Satsvarūpa: Ten to six.
Prabhupāda: No. Why ten to six? At least fifteen to six.
Italian Man (1): How long you both will be here. I have to go today. (break)
Prabhupāda: The whole Sāma-veda is music. Gāyanti yana-sāmagāḥ. Sāma-veda is full of music. The musical sounds, sa re ga ma pa da, this is from Sāma-veda. Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also credit. Because they have done something...
Indian man (1): Something to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: No, yes. That is our mercy, that we take advantage of their creation to bless them. We don't require all these things, but we take the advantage: "Because he has done something, let us take it." Just like we are using the microphone. So we don't require any microphone, but because he has created, that is the proper utilization. Not for sense gratification, cinema song. That is not required.
Indian man (1): Cinema can be used for education.
Prabhupāda: That can be used. Everything can be used. Everything can be used. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Therefore we are "lessoning" people that "Whatever you have done is rotten. Utilize for Kṛṣṇa." That is our purpose, not that we enjoy these.
Indian man (1): So for improving our morality.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that "Everything, what you have done, it is all right. Utilize for saṅkīrtana yajña." Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa... Rūpa Gosvāmī has recommended that
- anasaktyasya viṣayān
- yathārham upayuñjataḥ
- nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandhe
- yukta-vairāgyam ucyate
We have no attachment for these things. Just like in America, I ride on Rolls Royce car. That does not mean because in India there is no Rolls Royce car, therefore I shall not walk. We are not attached to all these things. But if it is available, we utilize it for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. That's all. (break) ...the best use of a bad bargain. When there is a bad bargain, so intelligent man makes the best use. "All right, how it can be used for the best purpose?" That is wanted. (break) Newspaper men, they call me "jet plane parivrājakācārya." (break) But our process is for yajña.
Prabhupāda: ...observing Śiva-rātri, Nanda Mahārāja and all the cowherds men, they increased their attachment for Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted.
Pancadravida: "After this incident, on a very pleasant night both Kṛṣṇa and His elder brother Balarāma, who are inconceivably powerful, went into the forest of Vṛndāvana." (break)
Prabhupāda: "Dressing is artificial. It is not required. Yes. This naked body is very nice." (break) No, you don't... You cannot be naga-bābā. That is not good. (break) If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, all these rascaldom becomes charming. When one is Kṛṣṇa conscious these things does not appeal.
Pancadravida: "Kṛṣṇa's transcendental form, quali..." (break)
Prabhupāda: Law is there. (break) ...speak in all language, even in the animal, birds' language. Babudaka.
Dr. Patel: Keśi-nisūdana.
Prabhupāda: Keśi-nisūdana.
Yadubara: "Keśi rushed toward with Lord with great..." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...control his mouth.
Prabhupāda: That is answered, sva-rāṭ. "Independent." That is God.
O'Grady: Independ...?
Prabhupāda: Independent. He is fully independent. He does not require to take lessons from anyone. That is God. That is God. If anyone requires to take lesson from other, he is not God. Who does not require to take lesson from other, that is God.
O'Grady: Where does human love enter into it?
Prabhupāda: Everything is there. Because love is also coming from God. So we are being part and parcel of God, there is part and parcel manifestation of love because the original love is there in God. Because nothing can exist. Nothing can exist if it is not in God.
O'Grady: Therefore we love.
Prabhupāda: The love is also there in God.
O'Grady: But God is not love?
Prabhupāda: God is love. God is everything.
O'Grady: Oh, yeah. Then love is God.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Yogeśvara: But that's not possible for the mass of people.
Prabhupāda: No, why not possible? We have got so many, just like Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He remained completely brahmacārī, although naked he is. He is. He doesn't require, and neither he is agitated. Just like when he was passing, the girls were taking bath. They did not take care. They knew that he is not at all affected by any woman. And when his father was going, they covered. So father inquired, Vyāsadeva, a personality like Vyāsadeva, said, "Why you covered? I am old man, and my young son he was passing naked." They said that "He is paramahaṁsa. He has no agitation of the mind. But you are gṛhastha. You live with woman. You have got distinction, man and woman." So this is civilization. What is the use of sex life? It is simply entanglement. Therefore, at the last stage, one is supposed to become sannyāsī. What is sannyāsī? Vānaprastha, sannyāsī, brahmacārī—no sex life. Out of the four different status of life, the brahmacārī has no sex life, the vānaprastha has no sex life, the sannyāsī has no sex life. Only the gṛhastha. That means it is prohibitory. It is allowed—it is simply concession to the person who cannot remain without sex life. It is simply a concession. Otherwise, according to Vedic civilization, there is no need of sex life. Because it is entanglement, simply entanglement. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). The example has been given. There is itching between the two hands. That's all. That means the itching disease is increased. This has been the description of sex life. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Although behind the sex life there are so many troubles, but still the rascals do not cease. Either illicit sex or legal sex... Legal sex you beget children. There are so many troubles. You have to raise them nicely, you have to give them education, you must be situated nicely. That is the duty of father. Otherwise, he would go on, begetting like cats and dogs, no responsibility. Just like some of our students, immediately married and again, "Give me sannyāsa." What is this? Irresponsible, that's all. Irresponsibility. So these things are not required at all. These things are not required. Bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. After marrying they see it is very great responsibility. "Now let me take sannyāsa." That's all. Why you marry? Because he finds that after marriage there are so many difficulties. So irresponsible man. So after there is difficulties; that's a fact. So why should you go to the difficulty? Therefore the conclusion is the married life is not required. But if you cannot tolerate, all right, get this concession, live very gentlemanly. This is marriage. Otherwise for higher sense, higher elevation... High elevation, of course, one who is actually on the higher elevation, he is married or not married, it doesn't matter. But on the whole, the sex life is not necessary.
Prabhupāda: Therefore cow is specially recommended, go-rakṣya, because very important animal to the society. If those who are meat-eaters, they can eat the hogs and dogs, they can eat. The Vedic injunction is not prohibiting them. If you actually... Actually, a human being does not require to eat meat. He has got many other substitutes. But still, if he wants to eat, let him eat the less important animals. Just like dog, hog. From the social point of view it has no utility. But why killing cows? It is delivering such a nice nutritious food, milk. Not only milk. According to Vedic system, the cow is so important, even the urine, even the stool, of cow is important.
C. Hennis: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So such an important... And besides that, from moral point of view, you are drinking the milk of cow, and after that you are sending to the slaughterhouse. Do you like to send your mother to the slaughterhouse? And the bull is giving you, producing your food. Nowadays they have invented tractor or engaging sometimes horse. But in India still, the bulls are engaged for tilling the ground, the field, and produces. So from moral sense, the bull is producing your food and the cow is giving milk to you; therefore father and mother. Just like father produces food for the children and the mother gives the milk. So if the human society has not this simple brain of understanding, then where is brain?
C. Hennis: Of course, when you speak of the distinctions that are made between pious activities and sinful activities...
Prabhupāda: They have no such distinction. There is no such distinction.
Prabhupāda: Why man? Simply love God; then you will love everyone. Because God is the center, God is the father of everyone, so if you love the father, automatically you love the sons. It is not required that you simply love this son and not that son. That is not love of Godhead. "I love human being but I do not love the poor animals. Send them to the slaughterhouse." This is not love of God. So in the Bhagavad-gītā, you will find, God says,
- sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
- mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ
- tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir
- ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
- (BG 14.4)
So God is the Supreme Father. It is not that He is father of the human being. He is father of the animals, He is father of the trees, He is father of the animals...
M. Roche-dieu: Living being.
Prabhupāda: Living, any living. We are all living beings. We are in different dresses. Just like you are European; you have got a different dress. I am an Indian; I have got a different dress. But dress is not consideration. You are a human being; I am a human being. Similarly, all the living entities, they are dressed in 8,400,000's of dresses. But they are living being. And all the living beings are part and parcel of God.
Prabhupāda: So at least in the human society, everyone must have understanding of God, that is expected. It is not expected in the society of cats and dogs because they are animals. The human being, dharmasya glāniḥ, there is dharma, some sort of religious system. And religious system means to understand God. That's all. Just like to become a lawyer means to understand the laws of the state. Similarly, religious system means the process by which one can understand God. And that is the summary of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religious system which trains the followers to understand God and love Him. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir, ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). If somebody says, "Oh, it is a very great thing to understand God and to love Him," they are thinking it is not possible. No. The answer is ahaituky apratihatā. It can be learned by anyone. It is not checked by any material condition. If one wants to know what is God and to love Him, the path is open for everyone. It does not require high intelligence, high education, high culture. No. Anyone. The process is śravaṇam, the beginning. One has to hear. One may be fool number one, it doesn't matter. No education, it doesn't matter. Poor, doesn't matter. Black, doesn't matter. White, doesn't matter. You try to hear. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). Therefore, Vedic injunction is in order to know, go to the bona fide guru and hear. Ādau gurv-āśrayam, sad-dharma pṛcchāt. So even one has no experience, if he goes to the experienced man, experienced person, then you can understand and you can love God, and that is perfection of life.
Prabhupāda: He does not forget, but he... Just like the same example. You call it forgetfulness or imitation. Just like the child was offering. He was not required to offer oblation, but he was imitating the mother. That is natural. According to Vedic instruction, we are all living entities. God is also a living entity. But He is chief. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), (break) ...that He is the topmost living entity, leader of the all other living entities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. The supreme one is maintaining all other living entities. So we are maintained. And He is maintainer. So sometimes... (to translator:) Yes, explain. There is... Sometimes it happens the father maintains the children, but the same child sometimes gives up the protection of the father. "Why shall I live under the guidance of...? I shall become independent." There are many instances in your western countries. He's happy being under the protection of the parents, but he rebels. He goes away. So that he can do. But if the father is very big, very rich, and the son leaves home and goes away to live independently, he suffers so much inconveniences and that is his choice.
Jyotirmayī: So she said that in..., it is also explained that those who are not intelligent enough to study, or who are out of caste, so they cannot, they don't have the right to study, then it is said that they can attain God directly by surrendering unto God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. It does not require education, knowledge or anything. If he agrees to surrender to the lotus feet of God, then his life is perfect. That is stated in the Vedic literature, naradita yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?). "If one has surrendered himself to the lotus feet of God and worshiped Him, there is no more need of austerity and penances." And naradita yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?). "If one has not learned how to surrender to God and worship Him, then all his austerities, knowledge, are useless." Antar-bahiḥ yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?), "If one can see God within and outside, then where is the necessity of austerity?" And naradita..., nan tad yadi bahi hari sthapasata tat (?), "If one has not learned to see God within and without, then where is the value of his austerity and penances?" Therefore God realization is the only business of the human being.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Vedic instruction is tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to get first-class experience of the perfection of life, you must approach guru. That is the Vedic injunction. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Now, who is guru? Whom shall I approach? So the next line explains that approach such guru, śrotriyam, who has heard from his guru perfectly, that guru. Who had no chance of hearing from perfect guru, he is not guru. This is called guru-paramparā, disciplic succession. I hear from a perfect person, and I distribute the knowledge the same way, without any change. So Kṛṣṇa gives us knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā. We are distributing the same knowledge. It is not by our... (aside:) Water is not required. Water I don't want. There is water. So I am always inexperienced because my power of understanding is very little. Therefore I must get experience from a person who is perfect. Then my experience is perfect. Just like a child does not know what is this. he asks his father, "What is this, father?" Father says, "My dear child, it is microphone." The child knows it, "microphone?" That knowledge is perfect, although his capacity is imperfect. A child is imperfect, but because he gets the knowledge from the perfect father who knows what it is, when he speaks "a microphone," he speaks rightly. This is perfect process of knowledge: You approach the perfect person and get knowledge, and that is your perfect experience. Personally, I may be, you may be, not perfect. But because I get the knowledge from the perfect, my knowledge is perfect. This is our process. We are getting knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the most perfect. Or you get knowledge from Jesus Christ, that is also perfect, because source is perfect. I am taking knowledge from God and you are taking the knowledge from the son of God who has come directly from him, the same. So, but we have to receive knowledge from the perfect, not by ascending process, experiencing failure, experiencing failure, experiencing failure, not like that. That will take long time. But if you actually want to be perfect, just approach the perfect, take knowledge from him and you become perfect. That is the injunction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). This is... Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Find out this verse, Fourth Chapter.
Prabhupāda: So this argument, this argument is not very sensible argument.
Professor Durckheim: No, but that is the answer they would give. I don't believe the special name of God is for me the name, the word God. We are praying to God.
Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Then name... When Christ says, "Hallowed by Thy name," there is name. The name is Kṛṣṇa, already there. Therefore he did not require to say again. But the name is there, Kṛṣṇa is there, Viṣṇu is there, Mādhava is there, Govinda is there. There are thousands and thousands of names. So you pick up any one of them. And chant it. Why do you say there is no name? Then we are chanting the name. Then what we are? We are all rascals and fools? If he says, "No, there is no name," Christ confirms there is name, and we are chanting the name. How you can say there is no name?
Professor Durckheim: Yes, quite. Well, I understand exactly what you mean very well.
Prabhupāda: There is name. It is confirmed. "Hallowed be Thy name." Now, we are chanting the name. What is your objection? You chant this name.
Professor Durckheim: I have no objection.
Prabhupāda: No, you... I mean to say anyone.
Professor Durckheim: Yes, quite, quite.
Prabhupāda: And "Hallowed be Thy..." Those who are chanting the name of God, Kṛṣṇa, just see the result, whether they are improving or not than those who have no name. Come to the practical field. These boys and girls, before my coming in the western countries, they were all so many, I do not wish to... (laughing) Now by simply chanting the name, how much improvement they have done? So why there should be any objection to chant this name? And what is the loss there? Suppose anyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. There is no loss, but the gain is practical. Why do they not, these theosophists, do not agree to chant this name, simple thing?
Prabhupāda: First qualification. He is very kind to everyone. Yes. Then?
Satsvarūpa: "He does not pick a quarrel with anyone. He takes the essence of life, spiritual life. He is equal to everyone. No one can find fault in a devotee. His magnanimous mind is always fresh and clean, without material obsessions. He is a benefactor to all living entities. He is peaceful. He is always surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has no material desire. He is very humble. He is fixed in his direction. He is victorious over the six material qualities, such as lust and anger. He does not eat more than what he needs. He is always sane. He is respectful to others, but for himself he does not require any respect. He is grave. He is merciful. He is friendly. He is a poet. He is an expert, and he is silent."
Reverend Powell: Well, they're all very good, aren't they? (laughs) And so in reading about Lord Kṛṣṇa, I take it that He performed many miracles of healing. I'm very interested in spiritual healing because in my ministry here in Australia I've been twenty-nine years in the Harley Streets, the streets of doctors. I'm now in Colin (?) Street. I was in McQuarrie Street in Sydney. And in Sydney I had forty-one medical men on, and women, mainly men on my role of members, and we work very closely. This very day I've been working closely with a doctor with a certain patient who's having what is called a nervous breakdown. And we, over the years, have spent a lot of time with spiritual healing. Now, do you yourself practice spiritual healing?
Prabhupāda: Hmm, no. Practically, we have very little suffering from disease. The devotees... We are spending so much money, but we don't spend for doctors' bill. You see?
Reverend Powell: Well, normal doctors, but now, we explain to our patients that the doctor normally works with the physical level, and the psychiatrist works with the emotional mental level, but the church works with the spiritual level. And just as Jesus...
Prabhupāda: Spiritual level means to cure his material disease.
Reverend Powell: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's it. As soon as the discipline broken, then everything is lost. Now you can dance like a dog. That will not affect. Nobody can do that unless there is spiritual strength. Now, last night Madhudviṣa Mahārāja was singing, and so many men became enthused to dance. So unless there is spiritual strength, it cannot be done. Others cannot ask and dance. No, that is not possible. That is not possible. Unless there is spiritual strength, you cannot enthuse others. So we should have to acquire spiritual strength by following the regulative principle. Sanātana Gosvāmī has therefore forbidden. Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇam pūta-hari-kathāmṛtam śravanām kartavyam: "Those who are not following Vaiṣṇava principles, one should not hear from him." Why? It is Kṛṣṇa-kathā, Kṛṣṇa's. Now sarpocchiṣṭa-payo yathā: "Milk is very good, but as soon as it is touched by a serpent, it is no more good. It is harmful." So one must be Vaiṣṇava. Unless one is Vaiṣṇava, there is injunction, "Don't hear from him. It will be poisonous." So one who is not following Vaiṣṇava principle, he cannot speak about Vaiṣṇava principle. It is harmful. That is forbidden by ācāryas, Sanātana Gosvāmī. If somebody says, "What is the harm? He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa..." He cannot chant. That is a show-bottle chant. That is not effective. But even taking that "Anyone who is chanting, let me hear," no, Sanātana Gosvāmī says, "No, don't hear." It will be harmful more than... In other words, if you are not following the Vaiṣṇava principle, you don't chant. It will not be effective. Did you not see the difference last night? There were many others. They could not join in the dancing. So far gathering men, if you do not gather intelligent men, then what is the use of gathering men? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ: "If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars?" If one is perfect Vaiṣṇava, that is sufficient. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is... There are so many... Such a big instruction book. It is not that, whimsical. But still, we recommend that "Go on chanting." This will help you anywhere. That is also good. It is exactly like that: if you ignite wood for fire, if the wood is dry, the fire takes place immediately, and if it is moist, then it takes time. Only smoke will come. So smoke is not required. The blazing fire required. Then if from the wood, if simply smoke comes you cannot (chuckles) take any work out of it. There is traces of fire. As soon as there is smoke, there is fire, but it is not useful. It is useful for troubling your eyes only. What is smoke? Smoke means also fire. But you require blazing fire, not smoke fire. So blazing fire takes place if the wood is dry, immediately takes place. Otherwise, you go on enjoying the smoke. Be satisfied. "When there is smoke, there is fire." But it will not be useful. (chuckling) It will be useful, gradually the wood will dry. It takes long time. Just try to understand this example. You require the flame, not the smoke. But if you are satisfied with the smoke, that is your business. If you simply be satisfied—"The smoke is also fire. Unless there is fire, why the smoke comes?"—that's a good argument, but smoke will not help you. You require the flame. That flame cannot be produced if the wood is wet. Wet means materially contaminated. Is that example all right?
Satsvarūpa: Yes, that's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Madhudviṣa: So what enables a person to do that?
Prabhupāda: No... But principle is that you try to understand that you are not this body. That is applicable in all time, all circumstances, all, for everyone. It is not that formerly one had to learn that he's not this body, and now that is not required. The same problem is there still. Arjuna, five thousand years ago he was given lesson about this, that "You are not this body; you are soul." The same problem is now also for the foolish person because the foolish person will always remain in the world, and the intelligent man is to teach him. This is fact always, without any consideration of time, space, and circumstance. There will be certain class of men, foolish, and there will be certain class of men who are intelligent. So the foolish man has to take intelligence from the intelligent man. This is perpetually truth in this material world. It is not, time and circumstances changes this principle. There will be foolish men. Just like now we read, "Two classes of men are there always, the demons and the demigods." So at the present moment more demons. Two classes of men are there always, but at the present moment the demons, number of demons, are more and number of demigods are less because it is Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: So we have no responsibility. It is false, māyā. Our only responsibility is how to become obedient servant of Kṛṣṇa. So that is only responsibility, one responsibility. Just like the political parties, they are advertising, different political party, "I am your friend. Give me vote." How he can be friend? Just like in America, the Nixon took vote, he was advertising "America requires Nixon." I have seen that advertised when he was being elected. But after some time, the people found that he is not required, "Get out." So nobody can become, because everyone is imperfect. How one can become friend or responsible for another person? Just like in your country, in Europe and America, so many hippies are there. Their parents are responsible, rich men, able men, but why they have become hippies? Is it not a fact? The father does not want that his son should become a hippie, but still he is becoming hippie. Where is his responsibility? You cannot give protection to your son. In spite of your desire, you are disappointed. So where is your responsibility? Who can answer? Where is your responsibility? You don't really like that your son should become a hippie, but you cannot protect him.
Devotee (2): They'll all be cheated.
Prabhupāda: No, not a single person. Actually he remains slave, artificially he thinks that "I am master." Just like Nixon was thinking. He was actually slave of the nation, but he was thinking, "I am master." When he was pressed too much, he had to admit, "Yes, I am your slave." He was pressed. Rather, oppressed. Nobody is thinking. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. Everyone is thinking, "I have got now so much money (indistinct) ...lot of money, so who is better than me?" (indistinct) She has become poet. Nonsense number one, and she is poet. Does not know the human psychology or animal psychology. The human psychology, animal psychology, that you have seen on the road, the sex. The animal does not require any education. The animal knows how to use sex; the man knows how to use sex. Where is the difference? Simply she is animal, she does the sex intercourse in a public street, animal (indistinct) an apartment, very nice apartment (indistinct). It is (indistinct), either you are dog or a human being, the fact is. He also sleeps. He sleeps on the street anywhere, and we sleep in a nice apartment. He also eats, and the human being also eats. He eats the stool and we eat very nice, palatable foodstuff. That sleeping propensity is there, sex life is there, and he is also afraid of enemies. Where is the difference? Difference is that dog cannot be taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness but a man can be taught. That is the difference. So if man does not take advantage of this human life, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is no better than a dog.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Risky life. The animal is always in danger. A dog is running, but at any moment he can be in danger. I have seen in my own eyes in New York. It is little in the off from New York. In I think in the month of December or January, a dog was jumping and he fell in the water pool and immediately died. It was so cold it collapsed immediately. So what is the use of this dog-like jumping? Besides that, in the animal society there is no question of culture, religion, philosophy, science. Animal, they do not require it. And why man requires it? That means human society is searching after the transcendence. But without knowing the way, how to understand, they are now engaged in different way. You find out this verse from Bhāgavatam, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā na yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Find out. Kamasya nendriya-pritiḥ.
Hṛdayānanda: It's in the first volume.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You know that? Find out this verse.
- kāmasya nendriya-prītir
- (lābho) jīveta yāvatā
- jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā
- (artho) yaś ceha na karmabhiḥ
- (SB 1.2.10)
Find out this. Read it. (Hṛdayānanda translates into Spanish)
Hṛdayānanda: They still have doubts on this point that how can we know that it's worth our trouble, that if we dedicate our lives to this searching for the transcendence, how can we be sure that at the end of it we won't have wasted our lives? How can we be sure that the transcendence is actually worth searching for?
Prabhupāda: No, first of all you must understand the importance of the business. Then we can do it. If you do not understand the importance of the business, then you cannot do it.
Prabhupāda: Well, when there is question of knowledge, only you will find a few people to get the knowledge. When you put this question, "Find out some learned scholar," generally they will be very... Their number will be very little. But one thing is that if there is one man in real knowledge, he can give the..., distribute the knowledge to many. The example is just like ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ: If you get one moon at night, that is sufficient to dissipate the darkness. And there are millions of stars—it is useless. So it is necessarily not required that everyone should be in perfect knowledge. But if one man is in perfect knowledge, hundreds and thousands can hear from him and they can perfect(?). So it does not depend on the quantity; it depends on the quality.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that just like you give the example of the dictaphone, but it seems like if he just recorded the knowledge within his brain and then repeated it, that he would just be like an instrument, and he might not really be conscious of the knowledge himself. He'd just be transmitting it. It seems like... He thinks that's a defect because he's not really, he might not be conscious.
Prabhupāda: No, he doesn't require. Just like I am working with this dictaphone. I am not a mechanic, but my business is going on. That is required. I have read the instruction paper, that "You use this microphone like this. You put this button," and three, four instruction. So I have learned it and it is giving my business. That's all. Just like this lamp, the instruction is "Push this button," (flicks light button) and it will go, all on. So I know I will get the light. Now I am not electrician. It doesn't require. That much knowledge is sufficient. But I want the light. So the electrician says, "Just put this button in this way. Light will be there." So my business is finished.
Prabhupāda: So that is the defect, that the modern civilization, they are not taking care of the spirit soul; they are simply taking care of the machine, body. Therefore the problems are there. You asked, "How to solve the problems?" The problems are there on account of this, that they are not taking care of the driver; they are simply taking care of the machine body. So if you take care of the driver, then he will remain sane, he will drive nicely, the body will not be disastrous, he will live peacefully. This is the problem. If the driver is careful, then he will not require very frequently the mechanical engineer for the car. He will keep the machine in order. If he keeps himself sane, then he keeps the machine also order.
Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): That's what he said at the beginning.
Prabhupāda: So then what is your program to take care of the driver?
Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He feels that there are different philosophies and different methods...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. There are different medical men and difficult diagnoses, but the urgent case is: cure the driver, and then car will go on nicely. Unfortunately, modern civilization, they do not know what is the driver. And how he will keep him sane? He does not know what is the driver? He thinks the car is automatically going on. Just like child. A child sees the car is going automatically, but that's not a fact. There is a driver. So if our vision is childish, how we can solve the problems of life? I talked with big, big professor, Kotovsky, in Moscow. He said, "There is no driver." This is a big professor, and he is teaching others. So if the leading men of the world, they think there is no driver, the body is automatically going, then what is the fate of the civilization? (break) No, there are, similarly, capitalists, communists, "this-ists," "that-ists." Full of these rascals. So how the human civilization can be without problems? The leaders are rascals. How we can expect that it will go on without problem?
Prabhupāda: That means rascal. That means rascal. One day something, one day..., that means the rascals. Just like yesterday or day before yesterday, "Maybe, perhaps." And "You cannot talk because you have no knowledge. You say, 'Perhaps, maybe.' What is the value of your knowledge? Don't talk."
Vīrabāhu: There was this great scientist. His name is Nernst. He said that everything was infinite. That the universe, everything, was eternal, that this universe was eternal. So he got very mad, very vexed because another scientist was telling him, this was, a young scientist was proving that the universe has a time, a specific time, and it will finish.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that does not require a great scientist. Anything in this material world which has got a beginning, it has got end. We can experience from our body. The body has got a beginning; therefore it must have an end. Anything which has beginning, there must be end. This is our experience. You take anything material. This tree, it has got a beginning; it has got end.
Vīrabāhu: But because it didn't suit to his theories he said that...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that means they are rascals. That means they are rascals. They are simply mental speculators. They have no value of their knowledge. We should take them like that, that "These are all rascals." They may be very big man in the estimation of other rascals, but we are not such rascals. We are not going to take their version. (end)
Reporter: Swamiji, perhaps the deficiency is in my question. Let me rephrase the question, if you'll permit. And I realize there isn't much air to breathe. Hare Kṛṣṇa. But I will make the question brief. My question has to do with karma-yoga in the outer world, for instance, in New York City. From what I understand, your disciples do not pursue the professions. Is that correct?
Prabhupāda: No, we are also, we are also karma-yogī. We are also eating, we are also sleeping.
Reporter: Oh, no, I understand that. I'm speaking in terms of outer service to people who are not in your mission. Other than preaching the truth of Kṛṣṇa, is there any other outer service to humanity?
Prabhupāda: That will include everything. If we make Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he becomes perfectly educated. We do not require to... Just like if you pour water on the root of the tree, the water reaches everywhere. And if you pour water on the leaf, on the twig, or on the branch, it does not go anywhere. It is localized. So at the present moment, service is a particular departmental service, not all-including. So, to educate people in Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to educate him all round.
Reporter: I understand, Swamiji. Again the deficiency is obviously with my question. My question relates to service to the outer world by your disciples.
Prabhupāda: That I have already explained...
Reporter: Yes, but...
Prabhupāda: That if you pour water on the root of the tree, the service reaches everywhere.
Reporter: How is that manifesting?
Prabhupāda: Manifested? That's like if you eat and give the foodstuff to your stomach, then you realize that you have got energy in every part of your body.
Reporter: You are not suggesting that all of that is just cut away completely, but that people...?
Prabhupāda: No, you require... First thing, you require to eat. So Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Produce sufficient grain, food grain, so that both the animal and the man, they will eat and become robust, stout, and strong. And they will be capable of working. So that is the first thing. But who is producing food grains? They are producing motor tires. When there is scarcity of food, will these motor tires help us? We shall eat motor tires? This is going on, so-called industrialization, producing unnecessary thing which is not required, and they are neglecting producing food grains. And I have estimated—I am traveling all over the world—that there are so much space even now that if you produce food grain, you can feed ten times of the population as it is. But they will not do that. They will create motorcars, and the whole street is congested. At any moment there can be accident, and if you have to go to consult a doctor, you have to go thirty miles off. Because the motorcar is there. I am diseased. I want to consult a doctor. So he must be in neighborhood. But I have to go thirty miles. And maybe, before going to the doctor, I may be finished, by accident. Anartha, it is called anartha. Anartha means unwanted things. So Bhāgavata says,
- anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād
- bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje
- lokasyājānato vidvāṁś
- cakre sātvata-saṁhitām
- (SB 1.7.6)
Because the rascals are simply creating unnecessary necessities of life, so their only remedy is bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. But people do not know it. Therefore vidvān, Vyāsadeva, he has made the sātvata-saṁhitā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, anartha upaśamam, to stop them acting nonsensically, simply producing problem.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you are in need of manager. You are in need of manager. You cannot deny another class of men of manager, so why not make the best manager, the brāhmaṇa, who is truthful, who is equal, satya śamaḥ damaḥ, who is control of his senses, satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa, who is tolerant? These are the brahminical qualification. Satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa. Who is simple, not hypocrite. Everyone is hypocrite. So why there should not be a class who is not hypocrite? All politicians saying something in the mouth and doing something else, because they are śūdra. So this is very scientific. How it not be scientific? It is spoken by God. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Required. Just like in this institution, I am guru, and if everyone becomes guru, then who will carry out the order of guru? There must be disciple also, who will carry out the order of guru. So it is not required... Just like in your body, it is not that body is made of head only, but head is required. You cannot avoid head, neither you can avoid the leg. So śūdra required, the brāhmaṇa required, the kṣatriya required, and the vaiśya required. And the society should be very nicely managed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ. Why does He not say one varṇa, brāhmaṇa? Naturally there must be division because all men are not of the same quality. You cannot expect. So whatever quality he has got, utilize that. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. The one man is lame, and one man is blind. So both are useless. So they combine together. The lame man was taken on the shoulder of the blind man. So the lame man has no leg, but he has got eyes. He was directing, "Go this way." So both their business was perfect. Similarly, according to the quality of the work, there must be a class of men less intelligent. They cannot independently work. They must require a master. That is śūdra. And then the vaiśya, then the kṣatriya, and the upper man is brāhmaṇa. He gives the direction to the kṣatriya. He is ruler.
Prabhupāda: First of all you have to understand that you are not this body. You are something beyond this body.
Girl: (German)
Haṁsadūta: She says we do not require as much as we like to believe we do. We do not require the things that we believe we require.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of this?
Haṁsadūta: (German)
Girl: (German)
Haṁsadūta: It means, it means apartment, furniture, money, family, and so many things. She says... She means that we don't require all these things.
Prabhupāda: I don't say that. I have never said that.
Haṁsadūta: (German)
Prabhupāda: But only for furniture and apartment, if you forget yourself and act in such a way, then next life you become a dog and lie on the street, then what is the use of your furniture? You are getting next life. First of all, you understand that, that "This is not the end of my life. I am eternal. I am changing my body." So it is described as dress. Now you may be dressed like a royal king. And next dress may be different. "May be" means it must be. And for the examples of the dresses—so many living entities. So you must be cautious that "What kind of dress I am going to have next?" (break) Where is that science? Where is that school, college? If you remain only confident that "I'll go on with this dress perpetually," that is not the fact. You'll have to change your dress. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). But we have no knowledge that "What kind of dress I am going to have?" It is a fact. I have already changed dress. I had a child dress. I had a boy's dress. I had a young man dress. Now I have got old man's dress. Now, Kṛṣṇa says that, "This also, you'll have to change." So why I am not inquiring "What kind of dress I am going to have?" and "How I am changing this dress?" So young man doesn't want to become old man. That is a fact. But if a young man says, "No, no, I don't want old man's dress," will it be accepted? Nature will say, "No, you must accept." Where is the remedy for this? Why these rascals do not understand that "I am fully under the control of nature's law, and I am declaring free. I am becoming philosopher"? He's fully under the control of nature's law. You have read Bhagavad-gītā. It is said, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmaṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). You are fully under the control of the laws of nature, and still you are thinking "I am independent. There is no superior controller." What is this nonsense? Hm? What is the answer?
Prabhupāda: ...otherwise, we recommend everyone become sannyāsa. What is the use of not becoming? (all laugh) We are giving up this world. We are preparing ourself for entering into the family of Kṛṣṇa. So why should we be very much anxious to maintain this family. So actually... Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says; "I'm not a sannyāsī. I'm not a sannyāsī. I'm not a gṛhastha. I'm not a brahmacārī." These four, eight varṇāśrama-dharma is unnecessary for spiritually. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was speaking with Rāmānanda Rāya... You'll find in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya... As soon as he suggested varṇāśrama-dharma, Rāmaṇanda Rāya, immediately Caitanya Mahāprabhu: "It is not very important. If you know better than this, you go on." He did not give any, much stress on this varṇāśrama-dharma. But for regulated life, that is required. And ultimately, it is not required. So it is not recommended for ordinary persons. But this is also unnecessary. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching is so sublime, that such things, which is the beginning of human life, that is also unnecessary. Iha bahya age kaha ara. Bahya means "this is superflous. You speak something higher than this." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So that is not very easy thing. First of all, we have to live very regulated life. Sannyāsa life is that regulated life. And then we can enter into the real life. That is ideal. So anything more?
Satsvarūpa: Any more on those five points? (break)
Devotee: ...Prabhupāda, beginning of new temples?
Prabhupāda: Shut them. Moving temples.
Prabhupāda: That is Bhagavad-gītā, that aviruddho-kāmo 'smi. "Sense gratification which is not against religious principles, that sense gratification I am," Kṛṣṇa says. We do not stop sense gratification, but we want to regulate sense gratification like a gentleman, not like hogs and dogs. That is human civilization. Sense gratification like hogs and dogs, not required. Sense gratification... People are following that. Although they are so degraded, still, they have not sanctioned as yet to have openly sense gratification on the street like hogs and dogs. That is regulated. That's still going on. But because the civilization is gliding down to animalism, they don't want this restriction. That is the hippies' protest, that, "Why this convention required? Let us enjoy like hogs and dogs." That is advancement.
Viṣṇujana: The scientists are helping them do that also.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Viṣṇujana: The scientists are helping them to do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Pañcadraviḍa: What shall we... Why should we enjoy sense gratification like gentlemen?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pañcadraviḍa: Why should a person...
Prabhupāda: Why do you do it? That is the, already there. Why don't you have sense gratification on the street?
Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they're already having. People are already having.
Prabhupāda: Not having very freely, not very freely.
Prabhupāda: During... And he was seeing, and everyone saying, "Get! Get down!" Caitanya said, "No, don't disturb. Let her see. She has got so much eagerness."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we cannot imitate.
Prabhupāda: Imitation is always bad. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Imitation is always bad.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu have a daṇḍī or a tridaṇḍī?
Prabhupāda: Daṇḍī.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ekadaṇḍī.
Prabhupāda: He took sannyāsa from Māyāvādī.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why did Nityānanda Prabhu break His daṇḍa?
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not require any.
Acyutānanda: After taking sannyāsa, though, He had śikha and Tulasī mālā? No.
Prabhupāda: He was Māyāvādī. (chuckles) (laughter)
Acyutānanda: Someone wrote that only Caitanya Mahāprabhu can say ahaṁ brahmāsmi. He is the only Māyāvādī who can actually say aham brahmāsmi, because He is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: He is brahmāsmi, no. He is parabrahmāsmi. Kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmine. (end)
Prabhupāda: Then, they are thinking of future. Now we are thinking of the future. That is ignorance—that they do not know what is future life. They are thinking of the future, that's a fact, but because they are kept in darkness, about future life, they are doing all this irresponsible work.
Amogha: But nowadays people usually only go to school because the law requires it. Then at the age of...
Prabhupāda: Law requires or not requires, they are going to school with some future hope. So every sane man should think of the future. But because they are kept in darkness, they are all insane. They do not know what is the future of life. That is the defect. Everyone is thinking for future, but he does not know what is future after death. That is their ignorance. And Bhagavad-gītā begins that as the child has future, the boy has future, the young man has future, similarly the old man has also future. So that they do not know. That is their ignorance.
Amogha: A lot of them will accept, "Yes, there is future after death," but...
Prabhupāda: That he does not know, what is that future.
Amogha: "Oh, yeah, we haven't discovered that right yet."
Paramahaṁsa: Many of them say we cannot prove there is any life after death.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this if proof. Just as the boy is there and the father is there, the boy is going to become father. This is future. Both of them are there. The boy is going to be the father, and the father is going to be the grandfather. Where there is no future? The rascals, they do not know, say that, but there is future. How can you stop it? The boy is going to be father, the father is going to be grandfather. This is future.
Prabhupāda: Why not express it? You can express it. If whatever is within your heart, if you cannot express, then you are not perfect. You must express what is within your heart very clearly. Not that I have got something within my heart and I cannot express. That means my knowledge is imperfect.
Carol: So often our understanding moves sort of separately the emotional, the heart.
Prabhupāda: Emotion is not required for scientific knowledge. Emotion is not. Useless. It must be factual. Emotion is no use. Emotion is useful in high, ecstatic love. Not for scientific study of something you require emotion. No.
Carol: In the bhakti way of doing things, this emotion and love are very closely entwined, aren't they?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is higher stage. Not in the beginning. In the beginning devotion means I should be devoted to you. Why should I be devoted to you unless you are worthy? Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." So unless I understand that Kṛṣṇa is worth for my surrendering, He is worthy, why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa? If I demand, immediately you have come, that you surrender. Would you like to do that?
Carol: To surrender?
Prabhupāda: If I ask you that you surrender. I am meeting you for the first time. Would you like to surrender?
Carol: Yes.
Prabhupāda: I don't think. (laughter)
Justin Murphy: The point I'm making is that there are so many people in Australia who would have no time. They are too busy making money. They are too busy doing what...
Prabhupāda: But what you will do with money? If there is no grain, then will you eat money? (laughter)
Justin Murphy: Certainly not.
Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. Money is not required. Required—food grains.
Justin Murphy: But unfortunately, of course increasingly now, in our society, there is an increasing ability to produce food almost artificially. And this happens more and more...
Prabhupāda: Then where is the scarcity? Why you are complaining, "There is scarcity of water." Why? You are complaining, "scarcity." If there is enough food, then why you are complaining about scarcity?
Justin Murphy: Well, I complain because I am a geographer, because I am working with an eye to the future, with an eye to a long-term situation where I can see that...
Prabhupāda: But I... Your problem and my problem is not different. You are thinking... I am not thinking. It may be. But you require food grain, I require food grain, the animals require food grain, and everyone requires food grain. So if there is sufficient food grain, then everyone will be happy.
Justin Murphy: Yes, now perhaps. How about in fifty years' time though?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Justin Murphy: How about in fifty or a hundred years' time?
Prabhupāda: But you were complaining about scarcity of water.
Prabhupāda: Second or first only.
Devotee 9: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what are you saying? You said before there's no necessary for a spiritual master and now you...
Devotee 1: He said in the spiritual world there is no necessity.
Devotee 9: Oh, in the spiritual world.
Devotee 1: Everyone is in full knowledge. In the material world everyone is in darkness.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Hari bol! Hari bol! (break)
Devotee 1: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it appears that there is a group of persons here in Australia who think, judging from the different questions that are being asked, they are thinking that it is not required to formally accept...
Prabhupāda: There are so many rascal swamis come. They say like that, "There is no need of guru."
Devotee 1: Yeah, right. They think that Kṛṣṇa is in the heart and you can accept initiation by that way.
Prabhupāda: You do not know where to find out Kṛṣṇa in the heart. (end)
Prabhupāda: Courage in battle.
Guest 2: American soldiers.
Prabhupāda: No, whoever may be. Not that I sit down in my armchair and I give direction. The poor soldiers are fighting. No. He should go. Courage. He should personally give direction, "Do like this." Who is doing that? The minister of defense is very comfortably sitting on his chair, and the poor soldiers are fighting. That is not required. He must go first of all: "Do like this." Just like in Battle of Kurukṣetra, Arjuna is in front; the other side, Duryodhana. The real fighters, they are face to face. Soldiers are assistant. Where is that? So they should be trained up. So unless he is by his nature very powerful, śauryam... What is that?
Amogha: Śauryam, heroism.
Prabhupāda: Heroism. Therefore the kṣatriyas are allowed to hunt in the forest to become hero because he has to fight. Just like in medical laboratory they first of all dissect some poor animal before touching human being. Therefore kṣatriyas are allowed to hunt to become hero. Facing the tiger, "Come on." And still, say, about twenty-five years ago, there was a native prince in Jaipur. Every year he would go to the forest and face the tiger, without any weapon. So that is required.
Prabhupāda: ...their own food, it takes working eight hours for three months. So three months, if they work hard-hard means eight hours, not more than—then the whole year's provision is there.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Simply they have to harvest, time, maybe two hours a day. Farming or being in the countryside also seems to be, in itself working in the countryside rather than in a factory, seems to be more conducive for thinking, even while they're working.
Prabhupāda: No, it is a fact. This factory working is most demonic. It is not required at all. For the interest of a few persons this device has been invented. Therefore the Communist movement is there. And the China has found the Communistic movement in Russia is defective because although it is Communistic, the whole idea of exploitation by the powerful is there.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, that is their argument actually.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is the fact. And Chinese Communism will be perfect if they take little instruction from us. We are also Communist, Kṛṣṇa Communist. We want that everyone should be happy. The Communistic philosophy is also like that. They want to see everyone happy. But they have made a materialistic center. That will not help. People are attracted to these bad habits of materialistic civilization. The most important is that sex and intoxication and meat-eating and gambling. So their attraction has to be changed. Otherwise, although these Chinese, they are pushing in the village, that village also will be a brothel. They must have some attraction. So where is that attraction? Just like the hippies. They do not like this civilization, but the attraction for the sex and intoxication they could not give up. So they remain the nasty again in a different way. The process should be mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. That attraction. Mayy āsakta. "The attraction which you..., should be changed to Me." This yoga should be practiced. Then it will be all right. The same example: if you keep the dogs as dog, there is no possibility of making a peaceful dog society. That is not possible. You have to change their doggish quality. Then there will be peace. How you can expect peaceful society amongst the dogs?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotee.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was so respectful to the brahminical culture. Many places it is described. Therefore His another name is namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, jagad-hitāya kṛṣṇāya govindāya. In the Kali-yuga the so-called brāhmaṇa means having a two cents thread. Not that brāhmaṇa. Vipratve sūtram eva ca. "To become a brāhmaṇa, just have a thread, sacred thread, and then do all nonsense." That kind of is not required. That is Kali-yuga brāhmaṇa: "I have got the sacred thread. I have become brāhmaṇa. Now I can do all nonsense. Never mind." That will not help. (break) ...giving sacred thread on the Pāñcarātriki-vidhi, the same principle. There is a little spot, fire. Fan it. The process of fanning. But the fanning is stopped; then small spot of fire also extinguished. It will have no effect because the small fire cannot do anything. It must be blazing fire. So our this process... We are accepting from the most fallen condition. Because he has little spark of fire—he wants to get Kṛṣṇa consciousness—so our process is: "Fan it." And then it must be blazing fire. But if you say that "Now that small fire is sufficient," that will not act. It must be blazing fire. A small fire is the potency. But potency should be brought to... Just like wood. There is fire. Everyone knows. But that will not serve your purpose. Fuel wood, unless there is fire... So there is fire, but it has to be increased. The wood... First of all set fire. Then there will be smoke. The smoke is also not fire. Smoke is another condition, symptom of fire, but smoke is not fire. The smoke must come into blazing fire. Then it can act.
Jayatīrtha: ...if no one else knows, they're able to fool them.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.
Brahmānanda: Each man presents his own theory.
Prabhupāda: That is theosophy, that is not theology. Theosophy means a system of speculation, that's all. And theology does not require. Biology. Logy means science. They say anthropology, but it is not logy; it is theory. "Maybe," "200,000,000's of years." What is this? Logy does not mean that.
Jayatīrtha: Still, they're awarding Ph.D.'s in theology.
Prabhupāda: Just like astrology. That is a science. Eh? What is that?
Jayatīrtha: But still they're awarding Ph.D.'s in theology, even they don't know anything about it.
Prabhupāda: You can do. Hiranda-pitha drumayate. When there is no tree, the small castor seed oil tree... It is not much. It becomes a very big tree. Hiranda-pitha drumayate. The castor seed plants, they are taken as big tree. (break) Actually, theology is Bhagavad-gītā. (break)
Jayatīrtha: Oh, that's nice. Very good. (break)
Prabhupāda: Suitable?
Brahmānanda: Yes. (break)
Prabhupāda: (walking) ...means science of God. So what is that science of God? Who knows it?
Jayadvaita: You do.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: And somebody will come... Just like in Karachi they have pulled down Gandhi's statue, and I do not know what statue they placed. (break)
Kuruśreṣṭha: ...worship these statues by the stool of crows. They worship these statues by the stool of crows.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. No, if you want to worship, then worship as we do. We have Kṛṣṇa's Deity worshiping. But what is this, keep a statue on open place and the crows pass stool on the head? (laughter) What is this respectful? In the Vedic civilization does not required. They worship deity but not like that, exposed to the crows for passing stool. That is idolism, and this is good.
Brahmānanda: The Christians do this. They have Jesus Christ outside,...
Prabhupāda: In the open.
Brahmānanda: ...exposed. And they accuse us of idol worship.
Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very dangerous place. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadam (SB 10.14.58). This is a place—in every step there is danger. We are walking in a very nice park. At any moment there may be revolution, whole thing is changed. Whole thing is, becomes fire. Just like, in India now it has become. So we should remember that here in this material world, padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadam, every step there is danger. Give up this place. That is the real intelligence. And the education misleading them, māyā-sukhāya, making gorgeous plans for temporary happiness. That's all. If in the slaughterhouse the animals are kept very comfortably, so what is the meaning of it?
Brahmānanda: They'll still be slaughtered.
Prabhupāda: That is great austerity.
Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that we should not fast more than one day.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I wanted to point out to you that the results...
Prabhupāda: No, artificial... Just like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, he was fasting, but he was not weak. That fasting. And he who will fast artificially and become weak, "I cannot work," that is not required. That is called markaṭa-vairāgya. If you fast and at the same time you do not become weak, then that is recommended. And after fasting you cannot do a flat, fall flat, then what is the use of fasting? Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī was fasting, but he was taking thrice bathing and offering obeisances hundred times. His regular activities was not stopped. And he was taking every alternate day a little quantity of butter. That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we cannot imitate his position.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. We have to work.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. One of the important things about taking prasādam is that all the devotees sit together. It is actually a very spiritual activity. Just like in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, the feasts...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is recommended, that we are following. But now it is not following?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I have to say frankly, I have seen now that in many... I don't want to get into mentioning any names, but some devotees are preaching this.
Prabhupāda: Preaching? Who is that nonsense, preaching.
Prabhupāda: Vegetable, grains, that's all. But something must be given. This is our program. So I saw yesterday the mayor. He came also very kindly. And you have come. So you consult yourself. This place or any place, give us some facility and see the result.
Lt. Mozee: Would you say that it should be done in an area of affluence or an area of poverty to begin with?
Prabhupāda: No, we have no distinction, such, but a place which is easily available for all kinds of men, that is very nice. There is no such condition that the only poor man will take benefit and the rich man, they do not require. Everyone requires. Do you think that the criminality is only in the poorer section?
Lt. Mozee: Oh, no.
Prabhupāda: Then? Everyone is a criminal, either he is a poor man or rich man. So we should not make such distinction, that only it is meant for the poor man.
Lt. Mozee: No, the distinction I was attempting to draw was would there be more benefit, would there be more of an influence, or would there be more of a strengthening if it were in an area of affluence rather than an area of poverty or vice versa?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, that's... Our treatment is for the diseased person. So diseased person does not make any distinction of poor man and rich man. Rich man is also diseased, and poor man is also diseased, and everyone should be admitted in the hospital. So hospital should be in such a place where the poor man and rich man, both of them can come because all of them are diseased. So when one comes to the hospital there is no such thing as a poor man's hospital or rich man's. Hospital is hospital. And everyone being diseased, everyone should take advantage. But the difficulty is, as we are quoting the passage, that rich man, he thinks that he is not diseased. Although he is diseased number one, but he thinks that he is not diseased. That is the difficulty of the rich man. But we are thinking everyone is diseased. And you know better than me being police. There are criminality amongst rich men and poor men alike.
Prabhupāda: These steps, you see? Here, there... There is no... Just opposite.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Four corners.
Prabhupāda: Four... Not four corners. Four sides.
Viśakha: And also with that in the center? Island?
Prabhupāda: No, island is not required. Make a program like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Take photos.
Prabhupāda: And if possible, send them ideas and direction. Bhavānanda has gone. (break) ...convince them that they are doing very nice, to their best capacity, but they are doing it blindly. You are very good driver, but if you are a blind man, then how you will drive? You will create disaster. So we can open their eyes so that their good driving capacity will be properly utilized. A good driver, blind, what he will do? Ajñāna-timirāndhasya. Darkness, it will not help. The western method of seeing things—blind eyes. Actually, they are blind. They are trying to see things with microscope. First of all you are blind. What you will see? Microscope, this machine or that machine, but you are blind. That they do not know.
Prabhupāda: Deductive always. And that is easier. Kṛṣṇa says that "I come as death and take away everything." So we know that nobody can be immortal; everyone must die. Simple conclusion.
Brahmānanda: We don't have to test it because Kṛṣṇa says it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You take that...
Ravīndra-svarūpa: We could never know ourselves unless we knew all cases.
Prabhupāda: No, we do not require to know. We hear from Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Person. That is perfect
Devotee: That's our logic. You said that once.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our logic.
Gurudāsa: But also you said once that we feel it. That is our proof.
Prabhupāda: No, feel, you may wrongly feel because you are imperfect. That is not good argument. Our argument is that the message is coming from the most authorized personality; therefore it is perfect. And we receive guru-paramparā. That is our process. Evam paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). The rājarṣis, means very, very, big, big, stalwart persons, they accept it. Just like Arjuna gives evidence that "I accept You. You are Parabrahma." So he, next line, he says, "It is not that I am saying. But big, big personalities like Vyāsadeva, he has said. Nārada has said. Asita has said. And You are personally saying, so I have no doubt." This is our process. (break) ...Upendra, Upendra has not come? (break) ...knowledge is always imperfect.
Reporter (2): Will this college be quite different from our conventional college which has a great emphasis on athletics, I mean, football teams and...
Prabhupāda: Well, an education... A highly educated man does not require athletics. He requires good brain. Just like high-court judge, he requires a good brain, not a big gigantic body.
Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the significance of the chant which everyone who has been around the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has heard? What is the significance of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Chanting means the holy name of the Lord. The Lord is absolute. His name is not different from Him. So if you chant properly or improperly even, then immediately you be in touch with God. And as you become in touch with God, you become purified. So as you become purified, you know, actually you can see perfectly what is the aim of your life, how the human form of life should be utilized. These thing will be revealed. This is the process of chanting. Try to understand. Chanting the holy name of the Lord means the name of the Lord and the Lord, God, is not different. Just like the sun and the sunshine is not different. Wherever there is sun, or wherever... Sun may be 93,000,000 miles away from us, but by the sunshine we can appreciate sun. Similarly, God may be long, long away from us, but if we chant His holy name, immediately we become in contact with Him. This is the purpose of chanting the holy name of the Lord.
Prabhupāda: So what is the problem? Real problem is birth, death. So have you any proposal?
Dharmādhyakṣa: No, he has no proposal for those.
Prabhupāda: Then what is this nonsense problem? So far eating, sleeping, even the birds and beasts, they have no problem. They are eating, sleeping. What is this problem in eating, sleeping and mating? There is no problem. Why you are creating problem? You are creating problem, rascal. There is no problem. Where is the... Out of 8,400,000 species, only men are 400,000. Eight million they are all lower animals. Where is their problem? They have no population problem, they have no food problem, no quarter problem. They do not go to office, they do not start factories. So where is their problem? Eight millions, they have no problem. And out of the 400,000, the so-called rascal civilized men, they have problems. Others they have no problem. They don't require a scientist rascal like you. (laughter) This is the... Tell them like this. If you take vox populi, so out of eight million four hundred, eight millions do not require a rascal like you. And out of the so-called civilized men, a few only, they require your service. So what is the value of your service? Others, they have no problem. Do you think they have problem, the birds and beasts? They are very freely walking from one tree to another and eating. Whatever fruits are there, they are eating. And the for mating, the female bird is always with him. Nature has given, when the birth is taken place, one male, one female, cats, dogs and birds. So there is no problem. Is there any problem?
Brahmānanda: No.
Sudāmā: Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayādvaita: And if we have faith in what the guru says, then automatically we'll do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. My Guru Mahārāja passed in 1936, and I started this movement in 1965, thirty years after. Then? I am getting the mercy of guru. This is vāṇī. Even the guru is not physically present, if you follow the vāṇī, then you are getting help.
Sudāmā: So there's no question of ever separation as long as the disciple follows the instruction of guru.
Prabhupāda: No. Cakhu-dān dilo jei... What is that, next one?
Sudāmā: Cakhu-dān dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei.
Prabhupāda: Janme janme prabhu sei. So where there is separation? Who has opened your eyes, he is birth after birth your prabhu.
Paramahaṁsa: You never feel any intense separation from your spiritual master?
Prabhupāda: That you do not require to question. (end)
Mr. Surface: Were some of the animals destined to survive through the destruction of other animals?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are also destroying so many cows daily, although you are human being. Do you consider that "Why this cow should be slaughtered?" They are also living beings. So what about the animals? If man can slaughter so many animals daily, then if a tiger kills another one animal, what is the wrong there? That is the distinction between man and animal. Everyone has to eat somebody, and nature's law is one living being is eating another living being. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. So the snake is eating the frog, the frog is eating another small animal or some flies, and the snake is eaten by the mongoose, and the mongoose eaten by somebody else, by cat or by dog. So this is the law of nature. Therefore the human being is suggested that "You should take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Eating is required, but you don't eat like the lower animals. You take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: (BG 9.26) "Anyone who is offering Me with devotion and love leaves, vegetables, fruits, flowers, milk, that I take." So we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. So that is our philosophy—we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Although there is also... Maybe not killing. Because if I take this flower from the tree, the tree is not killed. If I take grains from the paddy... What is called?
Bhojadeva: Plant?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So it dies before. All these food grain plants, when the food grains are ripened, they dry. So it is not required to kill the plant. When it is already dead, you can take the food grains. When you take milk, the cow is not killed. The milk is nothing but transformation of the blood. So we are taking milk means blood. The blood is in a red color, and milk is in white color, but it is blood. Unless it is blood, how so much liquid comes from the body? So we take the same blood in a very intelligible way so that cow may live, he can continue to give me more and more, and I take more benefit from the wonderful food, milk. This is intelligence. And because cow blood is very beneficial for health, if I kill the cow, that is not very good intelligence. In our New Vrindaban the cows are giving more milk than others because they know we shall not kill them. They are happy.
Prabhupāda: No, kamam vavarsa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4).
Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes. Purport. "The basic principle of economic development is centered about land and cows. The necessity of human society are food grains, fruits, milk, minerals, clothing, wood, etc. One requires all these items to fulfill the material needs of the body. Certainly one does not require flesh and fish or iron tools and machinery. During the regime of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all over the world there were regulated rainfalls. Rainfalls are not in the control of the human being. The heavenly King Indradeva is the controller of rains, and he is the servant of the Lord. When the Lord is obeyed by the king and the people under the king's administration, there are regulated rains from the horizon, and these rains are the cause of all varieties of production on the land. Regulated rains not only help ample production of grains and fruits, but when they combine with astronomical influences there is ample production of valuable stones and pearls. Grains and vegetables can sumptuously feed a man and animals, and a fatty cow delivers enough milk to supply a man sumptuously with vigor and vitality. If there is enough milk, enough grains, enough fruit, enough cotton, enough silk and enough jewels, then why do the people need cinemas, houses of prostitution, slaughterhouses, etc.? What is the need of an artificial luxurious life of cinema, cars, radio, flesh and hotels? Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling individually and nationally? Has this civilization enhanced the cause of equality and fraternity by sending thousands of men into a hellish factory and the warfields at the whims of a particular man? It is said here that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk because their milk bags were fatty and the animals were joyful. Do they not require, therefore, proper protection for a joyful life by being fed with a sufficient quantity of grass in the field? Why should men kill cows for their selfish purposes? Why should men not be satisfied with grains, fruits and milk, which, combined together, can produce hundreds and thousands of palatable dishes. Why are there slaughterhouses all over the world to kill innocent animals? Mahārāja Parīkṣit, grandson of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, while touring his vast kingdom, saw a black man attempting to kill a cow. The King at once arrested the butcher and chastised him sufficiently. Should not a king or an executive head protect the lives of the poor animals who are unable to defend themselves? Is this humanity? Are not the animals of a country citizens also? Then why are they allowed to be butchered in organized slaughterhouses? Are these the signs of equality and fraternity and nonviolence? Therefore, in contrast with the modern, advanced, civilized form of government, an autocracy like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's is by far superior to so-called democracy in which animals are killed and a man less than an animal is allowed to cast votes for another less than animal man. We are all creatures of material nature. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that the Lord Himself is the seed-giving father and material nature is the mother of all living beings in all shapes. Thus mother material nature has enough foodstuff both for animals and men, by the grace of the father almighty, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. The human being is the elder brother of all living beings. He is endowed with intelligence more powerful than the animals for realizing the course of nature and the indications of the almighty father. Human civilizations should depend on the production of material nature without artificially attempting economic development to turn the world into a chaos of artificial greed and power only for the purpose of artificial luxuries and sense gratification. This is but the life of dogs and hogs."
Prabhupāda: Now men are killing their own children. Is it not? Even cats and dogs do not do this. Although they give birth at a time half a dozen children, still they are not anxious to kill them. (pause) So I am coming in one minute. Please sit down. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Why you are there?
Mr. Surface: I must leave. Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him some prasāda.
Prabhupāda: Taravaḥ kiṁ na jīvanti (SB 2.3.18) . Bhāgavata says that "You are trying to prolong your life. Don't you know that trees live more and more years than yourself?" Taravaḥ kiṁ na jīvanti. So what is the use of such living? A tree standing for five thousand years, what is the use of such living? Therefore, those who are trying to live for many years, they are being instructed, taravaḥ kiṁ na jīvanti (SB 2.3.18) . They are also living being. And what is the use of living? First of all, that... For the same purpose, eating, sleeping, mating, and living for five thousand years, ten thousand years, what is the use? Taravaḥ kiṁ na jīvanti, bhastrāḥ kiṁ na śvasanty uta. (break) This park is very nice. (break) ... śunīcena. We are all trampling. There is no protest. (break) Our man?
Devotees: (laughing) No, yoga.
Prabhupāda: Yoga.
Jayatīrtha: He wants to be immortal.
Prabhupāda: No, this keeps healthy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's good for the body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śīrṣāsana, it is called, "sitting on the head," Śīrṣāsana. Śīrṣāsana, padmāsana, yogāsana. There are so many āsanas.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't practice those.
Prabhupāda: We have no time from sleeping. (laughter) Otherwise, this is not bad. This is not bad. It keeps good health, these yogāsana.
Jayatīrtha: So if we have time we can do that?
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not required. (end)
Devotee (1): Distributing books?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the distribution book can be done by the vaiśya, trade. It is a trade. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Kṛṣi, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading. If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of vaiśya. So vaiśya does not require any university degree or any... Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And brāhmaṇa should be very highly learned scholar. So the brāhmaṇas will give advice to the kṣatriya how to rule, and the kṣatriya will levy tax, and vaiśyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.
Prabhupāda: Then die. (laughter) Do you mean to say this modern medical treatment is guarantee for your living?
Harikeśa: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? That is also not guarantee. If you see the herbs and plants are no more effective, then if there is no guarantee in your modern medical, there is no guarantee. So why should you spend so much money? As soon as I go to a doctor, immediately twenty dollars. As soon as go to purchase some drugs, immediately twenty. If I have no money... And still that is not guarantee, so why shall I spend so much money?
Harikeśa: So actually this money doesn't even exist in Vedic society—money.
Prabhupāda: Money is not required. You require things. Just like instead of money, you are getting papers. Money means gold. Where is gold? You are cheated. Money means gold. So instead of possessing gold, you are possessing some paper, written there, "hundred dollars." And you are such a fool, you are satisfied. You are being cheated. Bank's check and currency notes, you keep it in your..., "Oh, here is my money." Is that money? Just see.
Devotee (3): They only do that to make it easier for them, because they've got so much money that they can't carry it...
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but actually it is not money. You are befooled. You are such a fool that you accept a piece of paper as money. Therefore I say you are rascal. That is my business. If I say "Government, give me gold," and government has passed law, "No, you cannot possess gold," that means cheating. How I shall keep gold, that is my business. First of all you give me gold. It is due to me. But you are giving me paper. That means cheating is begun from you.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So complex.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on. "These Britishers do not allow me to go there? All right, kill them." That was the Hitler policy and Kaiser's policy, to kill British empire. They did it. They were successful. But they were also killed. This is going on, unnecessary. Why you produce so much razor and scissor? And then find out market, and when there is competition, there is anger, there is enviousness, there is fight, one after another, one after another. Where is peace? Why do you produce so many unnecessarily? Why do you produce so many cars, when there is scarcity of power, and fight with Arabians? Anartha. Therefore it is called anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). As soon as people will be devotee, they will not require unnecessary things. They will be satisfied, simply bare necessities of life. That is peaceful condition. You create unnecessary needs of life, and then there is competition, there is hellish life, the factory, and then the factory man requires wine to forget his hard labor, so on, so on. Then he become thieves. He become rogues. This is your society. How you can expect peace?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The only solution is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: That's it, only solution.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Formerly the Manchester people were exploiting Indians. Now the Ahmedabad people, they have learned how to exploit. That's all. And government is satisfied because they pay tax. "Never mind. The workers may suffer, go on suffering." This is going on. And they have lost their own culture, and they have been taught how to drink, how to eat meat. This is... (break) ...fact is that Indians cannot work so hard as the Western people can work. The climate does not allow. India's climate is good for peaceful living, less work, and brain engaged in spiritual advancement. That is India's gift. They are not meant for hard work. Hard work is not required for anyone. This is animal civilization, to work very hard. Then what is the difference between animal and man? A man has to work so hard like animal; then what is the difference? Here in the Western countries their climate is also suitable, and they are taught to work very hard like animals. And they do that. Therefore materially they become so-called prosperous for committing suicide. Is it not?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is true.
Prabhupāda: And materially advanced for committing suicide. Am I right or wrong?
Devotee (1): Right, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: How they live? So this is all misconception.
Indian man: Oh. There should be life there.
Cyavana: They have a different way of getting the air than we do.
Prabhupāda: Or they may not require air. It is God's creation.
Indian man: And because they have not seen, therefore they say that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Here people take in consideration of his position. That is rascaldom. One should not think... There are varieties of life. And how they're in the sun? There is life. So you cannot conceive that there is life in the sun, but there is life. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa went there and talked with the president of the sun? The president means he's alone there? President means there is kingdom. They have got body made of fire. Can you imagine there can be body made of fire?
Indian man: If Kṛṣṇa says, then there must be.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is our business. But you cannot interpret. They cannot accommodate within their tiny brain what is going on in the creation. They think in their own way. That's it. Now, they say that the water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen. And who supplied so much hydrogen, oxygen?
Indian man: God.
Prabhupāda: So therefore it is, everything, in God's hand. Their difficulty is that they'll not accept God. That is the... Therefore we are very much angry with them. We want to kick on their face. The atheist number one, all these so-called scientists.
Prabhupāda: This is right answer, that you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. You must serve the stomach. Otherwise your position is very precarious. That is the answer. If the finger thinks that "I shall remain independent and be happy," that is not possible. The stomach must be supplied food, and then all the parts of the body, they'll be happy. That is the point. So you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the central enjoyer. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He is the center. Just like ordinarily this African state, if you do not satisfy the state or the president, then you cannot remain happy. Independently you cannot be happy. We require in every step sta... We have come to this park because state is cooperating. In the morning we shall come, and they have prepared it nicely. We are not going to the jungle. So if we actually want happiness we must cooperate with the state. This is crude example. Similarly, if our ultimate aim is to become happy, then we must cooperate with Kṛṣṇa. This is obligatory. You cannot escape it. Then you'll be unhappy. This is the... Stomach. Pranopaharac ca yathendriyanam. Therefore the natural process is you pick up... A child even. He picks up some something, but he does not put anywhere—immediately in the mouth. Why he does not bring it in the ear? Why? The child immediately takes it. He does not know what is what. But the nature is that as soon as he captures something, even he does not know... Because his position is eating, he knows this much, sense gratification. Other senses are not yet developed. So the child, he knows taste with tongue and eats. That he knows. So immediately anything he captures, he brings to the mouth, naturally. He hasn't got to be educated. So our position is like that. We being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, our natural tendency is to serve Kṛṣṇa. Natural tendency. It is not artificial. When you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is artificial. So our normal life means to love Kṛṣṇa, to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is our normal life. Without serving Kṛṣṇa our life is abnormal, madman's life. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says... When you forget Kṛṣṇa, He comes to preach the normal life. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). This is normal life. So Kṛṣṇa does not require your help. He can create many helpers. But for your good Kṛṣṇa comes, that "If you want normal, happy life, then surrender unto Me." This is the proposal. Therefore the whole Bhagavad-gītā, all Vedic knowledge, is there. We have forgotten our position. Our posit..., normal position, is to love and serve Kṛṣṇa. Therefore anādi bahir mukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karila. Because we do not know... From time immemorial we cannot ascertain when this incidents have happened, to forget Kṛṣṇa, but it is practically... Life after life, life after life, we are changing body, but forgetting Kṛṣṇa. So here, in the human form of life, there is the opportunity to revive our original position, and we require the help of knowledge, perfect knowledge.
Jñāna: If I eat a lot I become fat. If I stop eating I become thin.
Prabhupāda: You stupid, you eat so much, but God is not stupid. He is conscious perfectly. He has nothing to eat. Still, He can grow. That is the difference between me and God. You don't require to eat even. There are many saintly persons they do not eat. How they are working? Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī was not eating. He was... Every alternate day he was, little butter, so much. That's all, not daily. Every alternate day. So actually we do not require to eat. Eating, sleeping, sex and defense—this is bodily necessities. But you are not this body. When you come to the spiritual platform there is no necessity of these four principles. So that is your mistake, that you are thinking, "God has got a body like me. He requires eating for nourishing it." That is your foolishness. Aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛttimanti. His body is so made that He can perform any limb's work by another limb. Just like we can see with the eyes. As soon as close the eyes, we cannot see. But Kṛṣṇa can see by His ear. As soon as you pray to Kṛṣṇa, immediately He sees you, "Oh, here is My devotee," by hearing the sound of your prayer.
Devotee(4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that our body was made by (indistinct). Why should we (indistinct)? But why should we come back?
Prabhupāda: Because you have this material body, you have got so many necessities and God has no material body. He has got spiritual body. He has no necessity. Apta kama. He is fully satisfied. He doesn't require to take anything.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes, he is right.
Brahmānanda: If they set a bad example, then they will follow bad example, then the criticism of the Indians will be justified.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it. So those who cannot follow, they should not come here. And ask from the origin that "Those who cannot strictly follow the rules and regulations, they should not come at all. It will set a bad example. They should be forbidden to come here." That I was speaking, that instead of filling with bad cows, better keep the cowshed vacant. That I was speaking. Those who cannot strictly follow our principles, they should not come here. It is bad example. By mistake, if somebody does, he should be regretful and he should rectify. That is another thing. But not willingly he should neglect. Then such person is not required at all.
Devotee (7): Prabhupāda, in the movement there is sometimes difficulty, and...
Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? You chant sixteen rounds and follow the regulative... Where is the difficulty?
Devotee (7): If they will not accept instruction, then...
Cyavana: Then what is your instruction? If they won't accept your instruction, then what is your instruction? Must be bogus. Huh? If your instruction is pure, then they'll accept. If your instruction is not pure, who will accept? I will not accept.
Prabhupāda: No, "Example is better than precept." If you actually follow strictly the rules and regulations and chant sixteen rounds, why they'll not follow? They'll follow. If you are not attending class, if you are not attending maṅgala ārati, if you are not finishing sixteen rounds, then that is bad example.
Dr. Patel: Devī Purāṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Yes, you can eat meat. There is no harm. But you get it sacrificed before Goddess Kali." But this is not meant for the high-class brāhmaṇa. This is meant for the third-class dvija. But still, he is induced to accept some authority. In this way there are Purāṇas. Somebody is recommended to worship Lord Śiva, somebody is recommended to worship Kali, Durga, Sarasvatī, many demigods. But Nārada Muni chastised his disciple that "You have done wrong. Why you have recommended all these things?" Jugupsitam. That is said there, that "People will take your authority, and they will be engaged in worshiping different demigods." Actually that is not required. Then he compiled Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, only the Supreme Lord worshiped. The same thing as Kṛṣṇa explained, mam ekam. That is success. So Vyāsadeva was very much...
Dr. Patel: But, sir, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, He has already said in Mahābhārata also, you know?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's all. That we are pointing out, that without soul, this body has no meaning. It is a lump of matter. But you are saying that without this lump of matter, the soul cannot...
Dr. Patel: No, no. I don't say that. But so far as the body is living, soul has got to be there.
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Patel: If there is no soul inside, what will happen...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Body requires the soul for movement, but soul does not require the body.
Dr. Patel: Soul creates a body to fulfill...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Soul creates in this sense: by his karma he has to accept, accept a certain type of body. But originally he doesn't require this material world. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. And that is self-realization.
Dr. Patel: The production of the body in the cosmos is the līlā of...
Prabhupāda: No līlā. It is compulsory.
Dr. Patel: Why compulsory?
Prabhupāda: Just like if a man is beaten with shoes, that is not his līlā. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: What it is?
Prabhupāda: It is force, that "You must be beaten with shoes." That is not līlā. Nobody says, "Let me play this līlā and you beat me with shoes." (laughter) No sane man will do that. When a man is punished, that is by force, superior force. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). This is force, prakṛti, nature's. You cannot say that "I don't care for the prakṛti." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ.
Prabhupāda: So simple, yes. (Bengali) Nāmāśraya kari, thākaha āpana karye. "Go on with your duty, prescribed duty, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." (break)
Akṣayānanda: I was recently told by one devotee that the ācārya does not have to be a pure devotee.
Prabhupāda: What?
Akṣayānanda: That the ācārya does not have to be a pure devotee.
Prabhupāda: Who is that rascal?
Akṣayānanda: Well, he said it. Who said it?
Prabhupāda: Who said? Who is that rascal? The ācārya does not require to be a pure devotee?
Akṣayānanda: He said it. Nitāi said it. He said it in this context. He said that Lord Brahm is the ācārya in the Brahma-sampradāya, but yet he is sometimes afflicted by passion. So therefore he is saying that it appears that the ācārya does not have to be a pure devotee. So it does not seem right.
Prabhupāda: So who is that rascal? I want to know who has said.
Akṣayānanda: Nitāi. Nitāi dāsa.
Harikeśa: Nitāi said that?
Prabhupāda: Who is Nitāi dāsa?
Harikeśa: Our Nitāi.
Akṣayānanda: Nitāi.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you cut his head and say that "It is not important. You are talking nonsense. Cut your head."
Indian man: He don't give any commentary on verses, even important commentary, he speak all nonsense.
Prabhupāda: No, therefore you say, "This head is not required. You are talking nonsense," and cut his head.
Akṣayānanda: No one knows what he's talking about anyway.
Harikeśa: Especially him.
Akṣayānanda: Yes. No one can say.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...become a problem for all these rascals, that we are presenting Bhagavad-gīta As It Is. That they are feeling that "If this movement goes on, then we are all finished."
Devotee (2): Out of work.
Akṣayānanda: Their profession is at stake.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Yes.
Devotee (2): One Māyāvād sannyāsī, he wrote a book, "Be Your Own Guru," and he said you can...
Prabhupāda: So why do you write book?
Devotee (2): Yes, he is being guru. He is teaching them to do without a guru.
Prabhupāda: Let everyone become his guru. Why you write books?
Indian man: ...one book that one should not write a book without the permission of a spiritual master.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll find in today's tape that Prahlāda Mahārāja recommending, that "Spiritual life begins by guru-śuśruṣaḥ, by serving guru." (break) ...Gosvāmi said, ādau gurvāśrayam: "The first beginning is to take shelter of the bona fide spiritual master." Sad-dharma-pracchāt: "Then inquire from him about the spiritual path." Sādhu-mārgānugamanam: "Follow the previous ācāryas." These are the steps. Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'ha śādhi mām: "Now I become Your disciple. Teach me." And these rascals are more than Arjuna—"There is no need of guru." Huh? He says, śiṣyas te 'ham (BG 2.7). Why? He was already friend. Why he should submit himself as disciple? That is the beginning of spiritual life.
Dr. Patel: ...because the body is the māyā, the mind is māyā, and the very mind will help us, sir, that doesn't it help us to go towards Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: No. That is not māyā's help. When you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, māyā will not bother with your business. That means you get relief from māyā. You are no more under the jurisdiction of māyā. You..., now you are under the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. māyā will trouble you so long you do not go in the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. Ye mā prapadyante māyā.
Prabhupāda: And as soon as you go under the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān paritiyaja mām ekam, then there is no jurisdiction of māyā. Just like as soon as the sun rises there is no more darkness, automatically. You do not require to dissipate the darkness. As soon as there is sun, everything is light. (aside to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya! Mam eva ye prapadyante māyām etā taranti te. This is the process. It is simple method. To become under the jurisdiction of māyā it requires great labor. But to become under the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa, it takes a minute. But these rascals will not do that. Kṛṣṇa...
Dr. Patel: Because Kṛṣṇa Himself has made your eyes, all these indriyas outgoing, so...
Prabhupāda: Indriya, He has made your eyes to see Kṛṣṇa, not a prostitute. That is your fault. Kṛṣṇa has given you eyes to see Him, but you are utilizing to see a prostitute. That is not Kṛṣṇa's fault; that is your fault. Eyes are not bad. Kṛṣṇa has given you eyes to see: Kṛṣṇa. But we are utilizing for other purpose. That is our fault. We are presenting this Kṛṣṇa's Deity in the temple, but who is coming to utilize his eyes? Nobody is coming. They will go to see cinema, beautiful actress; so they are ultilizing the eyes for this purpose.
| Page Title: | Not require (Conversations 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 11 of Dec, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=104, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 104 |