Prabhupāda: Nice if she does not marry, that's nice. Anyone who has got children, he should not marry, I think so. Because marriage means not for sense gratification. Putrāyate kriyate bhāryā, putra-piṇḍa-prayojanam. To get nice son, that is the idea of marriage. Not for sense gratification. Those who are after sense gratification, according to Vedic scripture, they are, I mean to say, recommended to go to the prostitute. Therefore in Hindu society, still, there is a prostitute class. They are allowed... They do not allow it within the society. I mean to say, extravagant sex life. Especially spiritual life. Spiritual life means gradually forget sex life. Material life means sex life. In the spiritual world there is no sex life because there is no birth, there is no death. That is stated in Bhāgavata. Although the women are very, very beautiful, many thousand times more beautiful than here... Their stature of body, their everything, youthfulness, everything. But still they are so much engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in chanting the glories, that they are not, I mean to say, influenced by the lust. That is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavata, in the Vaikuṇṭha. There are women. They also, men and women there is, and they also go by airplane, fly in the sky for trip, and all of them are devotees to Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa associate. So these things are described. So similarly, amongst the gopīs also. So in the spiritual life there is nothing like this sex pleasure. And the more we forget sex life, that means we are advancing in spiritual life. So this should be the attitude, that women, Godsisters, they should be nicely treated so that they may not feel any... After all, they are weaker. That should be our policy. Anyway... And if somebody agrees to marry, oh, that is welcome. There is no objection. Marriage is allowed. And so many married couples, they are very nicely living. Those who have gone to London, they were not married in the beginning, and I got them married. Similarly, here also, Harṣarāṇī and others. In New York also, Balāi dāsī, Advaita. So if the boy and girl agrees to marry, it is very nice. There is no objection. If not, they should be given all protection. Is that all right?
No death (Conversations)
Expressions researched:
"never die"
|"never dies"
|"no birth and death"
|"no birth or death"
|"no birth, death"
|"no death"
|"no punar death"
|"no question of death"
|"not dying"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Why? First thing is even they are successful, according to our principle, it is simply waste of time. Because we are not concerned even with the moon planet. We are trying to go to the planet of Kṛṣṇa from where nobody returns back to this wretched condition of life. So the wretched condition of life is as good in moon planet as it is in this earth planet. And do you know what is the wretched condition of life? Yes. The birth, death, old age and disease. This is the wretched condition of life. So you cannot avoid this wretched condition of life in the moon planet also. There is birth, death, old age and disease. But where we are trying to go by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no birth, death, old age and disease. So even there are, people are successful to go to the moon planet, what connection we have got there? We are not at all concerned with any planet where there is birth, death and old age and disease. Even in the highest planet of this universe.
Reporter: Well, what I'm getting at is that if for instance you say that first this conviction that they would not be able to land, and secondly that whatever earth people would go there would be opposed and would not be able to safely return, if you say this, based on Vedic literature, and other members of the Kṛṣṇa movement heard this, and then if the feat were accomplished, would this not seem a contradiction or something that had been said would be the case and then the opposite was proved true? Would this...
Prabhupāda: What is that contradiction? There is nothing contradiction. We say that if you get a suitable body you can enter there. So if by your scientific process you can equip yourself with suitable body you can enter there. Where is the contradiction?
Reporter: Well, you said that spacesuit was not a suitable...
Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is a fact. That is not suitable.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. That is another foolishness. They will be bribed and they will vote. They will get money, that's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Another thing that is coming up is genetic engineering, which they are afraid about, just like they say remember like atomic bomb incident. The politicians will utilize the...
Prabhupāda: So why they discover all these nonsense and waste their time? Why do they not discover something which will stop all problems of life—no death, no disease. Why do they do not know? They are also rascals, combination of rascals. Why do they expend their energy and intelligence for this nonsense purpose? (break) ...which will be reduced.
Jayatīrtha: They want to discover things just for the sake of knowing them, just because everything should be known.
Prabhupāda: That is described in śāstra, kevala-bodha-labdhaye, just for the matter of knowing, never mind it will be disastrous. Why don't you try to know something which will not be disastrous-beneficial? But that they have not. That you have no power to know that. Why don't you try to know God? Why trying to know something disastrous? What is this?
Jayatīrtha: In the Bhāgavatam it says that (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: They like us?
Jayatīrtha: Some of them, they recognize (indistinct). Oftentimes they like us (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Any sane man will like us.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, there is no evolution because there is no birth.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, in the material world.
Prabhupāda: Material world, there is evolution because there is birth. But in the spiritual world there is no birth. Birth, death, old age, disease, these things are not there. There is no question of evolution. Evolution means to transmigrate from one body to another. But there is no such thing. Everyone is eternal. There is no death, there is no transmigration. This is botheration. Therefore spiritual world means all the varieties of the material world, less botheration, minus botheration.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But in the Vaikuṇṭha planets...
Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa had so many girlfriends. There are so many nice descriptions of embracing, kissing, but there is no pregnancy or abortion. There is no description of such things. And that is spiritual world. The attraction for young boy, young girl is there also. They are also enjoying their company. Everything is there. But there is no such thing as pregnancy and abortion. Here people do not want that, pregnancy and abortion. But they are forced to do it because there are so many inebrieties here. That thing is minus in the spiritual world. They are also attracted by the bodily features of the women. There is attraction, but they are more attracted by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Therefore this bodily attraction of woman does not affect them. Just like if you have got better attraction, you don't care for the lower attraction. The attractions are there. The body of the woman is very beautiful. But men are not so much attracted with the body of the woman. They are more attracted to Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. These are described in the Bhāgavata. Here also, practically we see, those who are attracted by the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, they are not very much attracted with the bodily features of the women. Is it not?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Umāpati: Give them a lot of credit.
Karandhara: Well they say they have done so much in the past, they have accomplished so much in the past.
Prabhupāda: That is all useless. What you have done? You have not given any contribution that there will be no death. The death is there. In the past there was death, and people are dying now. What you have done?
Paramahaṁsa: Helped death.
Prabhupāda: Helped means you have helped to minimize their duration of life. Formerly man was living hundred years. Now they do not live more than sixty, seventy years. That you have helped certainly. What you have helped? A man is dying ordinarily, and you have created atomic energy. You can kill thousands of men. So you have helped only in dying. But you have not helped in living. That is not possible. Then what you have done? Some childish play? What you have done? You cannot stop death, you cannot stop birth, you cannot stop disease, you cannot stop old age. So what you have done? Formerly people used to become old. Now also, they are becoming old. Formerly people used to die. They are dying now also. Formerly the people used to become diseased. They are becoming diseased. More diseased. More medicine. What you have helped? You have not helped anything in the improvement of the order of the world? What is that help?
Umāpati: The same scientists will point to India and say, "Look at all the dying and starving people over there."
Prabhupāda: No, no, why Indians? We are talking of the whole world. Why you take the example of the Indians? Indians may be backward. We are talking of you, so forward. What you have done? Indians may be backward. We are not talking of any particular nation or particular people. We are talking of general people, people in general. India, why bring India?
Umāpati: Well, it's the popular opinion over here that Indians are...
Prabhupāda: You are, you are, you are, you...
Krishna Tiwari: When I was in India, dying in smallpox, children were dying in smallpox, and we were going to all the knowledge of Veda people, and they were sending us to the temple, and we, we go and worship, and the people will die and, and they didn't tell us anything about some kind of injection which could protect it. And the scientist people who went and found out about nature, they found out something, and children are not dying anymore. They are not deformed. I know about that...
Prabhupāda: You have stopped the death of children?
Krishna Tiwari: We haven't stopped, but we sure don't see them going because of smallpox.
Śyāmasundara: Because they're all in the hospitals.
Krishna Tiwari: Because of smallpox, we don't see them going.
Śyāmasundara: But they die.
Krishna Tiwari: Eventually everybody dies.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. (all speak at once)
Prabhupāda: You don't know so many points. First of all this point, let us decide, that every one of us under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I have already explained. There must be a class of men like me. They are called brāhmaṇa. They should help others. One who cannot rise so early, they will help him by his knowledge. He, the man who cannot rise early in the morning and cannot take the brahminical principle, śūdra, kṣatriya, vaiśya, he should be helped with the knowledge acquired by the brāhmaṇa. Just like the same example. The leg. Leg is not brain. The brain will give direction to the leg, "You go this side." Then it is perfect. The leg has no brain, but the brain is there. If he takes the advice of the brain and goes... Just like... It is called the logic of blind and lame. There is a lame man and there is a blind man. The lame man cannot walk, and the blind man cannot see. They should join. The blind man took the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man giving direction, and the blind man is going nicely. So by the cooperation of the blind and the lame, the work is done perfectly. Andha-kañjatā-nyāya. Similarly, it is not required that everyone has to become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible. So if the brāhmaṇa and the śūdra combine together, work, then both their lives will be perfect. Here you cannot expect everyone as brāhmaṇa, in this material world. That is not possible. Because in the material world three qualities are working. So one may be brāhmaṇa, another may be kṣatriya, another may be vaiśya, another may... So they should cooperate. Then everyone's life will be perfect. That is the program. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are creating brāhmaṇas. So others, they should cooperate. Then their life will be also perfect. Just like these people are preaching that "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and refrain from sinful activities." So if people take advice from these men, simple thing... Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is not difficult. Anyone can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And no illicit sex life. No... Even one cannot follow these restrictions, if he chants, he will be benefited. But if he chants and follows these restrictive rules, then he will be perfect in this life. And that is not difficulty. Suppose if I do not eat meat. We are not eating meat. We are not dying. We are eating so many nice things, prepared from vegetables, grains, milk. So that is not very important thing, that one has to eat meat and commit sinful life. So anyone can avoid it. They are not smoking, they are not drinking, they are not dying.
Prabhupāda: That has been written by Professor Dayal, Dimock, that "Sanskrit scholars should get good opportunity, and nobody, I think, will deny Swamiji's scholarship." He has said that.
Gargamuni: Any name we have in India, any good name we have, is due to you.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) It is due to Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). So you can give me massage. Thank you very much. Now you have got very, very great responsible work. I will die. You will live. Kīrtir yasya sa jīvati. But I will not die.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you could never die. (laughter)
Gargamuni: We can't accept that.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Gargamuni: We refuse to accept that. (end)
Prabhupāda: Nobody has intelligence. It will not, it will not stay. It will be spoiled. Joint mess organization. In Los Angeles, they're also doing business. They're going to sell books. But regulative principle is observed. Huge expenditure they have got. No center is so improved as Los Angeles. We have purchased six houses. And I wanted immediately two lakhs, immediately sent. You cannot pay. You simply want to take. In India, nobody can pay. If I want two lakhs, nobody can pay. But all this money have been taken from U.S.A. I asked Bali Mardana, I asked Karandhara. They paid me for this Bombay affair, sixteen, eighteen lakhs. (break) ...and breathing also does not stop. It goes very slow. Therefore he cannot be immortal. And Bhagavad-gītā proposes, that is wonderful thing, if you can stop death. And whole spiritual life means how to stop death. That is Bhāgavata's instruction, "Don't accept guru, don't accept father, don't accept, or don't be father, don't be mother, don't be, if you cannot stop death." Either you don't accept, or don't become. Just like they want guru. So don't accept a guru who cannot stop your death. And from guru's side, it is advised, "Don't become guru if you cannot stop the death of your disciple." This is Bhāgavatam's statement. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to stop death, live eternally with Kṛṣṇa, go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our movement. So our guru gives us this opportunity, no more death. Tyaktvā... After leaving this body, you don't accept any more material body. And if you don't accept material body, then there is no death. As soon as your spiritual, you remain in spiritual body, there is no death. There is no birth also. Death is concomitant where birth is there. If the death is stopped, then there is no birth. And if there is no birth, there is no disease, there is no old age. This is the process. So birth, death, old age, disease can be stopped only by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if you don't like to be Kṛṣṇa conscious then what is the use of becoming your disciple, and if the guru, if he cannot stop your death, birth and death, then what is your becoming guru? So 'mṛtatvāya kalpate. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha. Find out this verse. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will prolong death. They're trying to prolong.
Prabhupāda: "They're trying."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: A bit longer.
Prabhupāda: Death.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ultimately, find there is no death.
Prabhupāda: No, what...? Death is... What do you mean by death?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Losing the material body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that you are losing every day, every moment. You are not today what you were yesterday, that you are losing. So, how can you defeat? You are, every moment you are being defeated.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are some theories now. By turning the temperature, by cooling down little more than the body temperature, you can live longer.
Prabhupāda: Well, you can live little longer, but you cannot live forever. That is not possible.
Umāpati: They're freezing the body now, Prabhupāda, in the hopes that sometime in the future science will be able to make them come back to life.
Prabhupāda: That is all future. That is all future.
Prajāpati: There's a large group today, Śrīla Prabhupāda, called humanists and they have decided that this concept of God is not very useful. We can solve all the problems ourselves.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. These are rascals. You see, humanists, they are professing humanists and they are killing so many human beings daily. You see? These are all escapism. What is called? Escaping? They could not find any, I mean to say, solace and now humanity... What they can do? There are so many people suffering in the human society. What they can do? Suppose they are opening hospitals. Is that guarantee for a cure of disease or no death? Then what is the humanity. You cannot do anything. You may advertise yourself, " I have opened so many hospitals and beds." But what you can do? Is that guarantee that there that there will be no disease and everyone will be cured, nobody will die. Then what is the humanitarianism. You cannot do anything.
Karandhara: They say, "the best use of a bad bargain."
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but that is not perfect idea that you want to make people happy, that is humanitism, or what is that? So can you make everyone happy? Is that guarantee?
Karandhara: Well, they say life means happiness and sadness.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then what is your meaning of the humanitism? That is going on. Without your attempt that is going on.
Karandhara: They say you can't separate...
Prabhupāda: There was one physician in Dacca. He was... Morning, he was washing his face. So one man was going, and he was coughing. So he asked that man, "Come here. Where you are going?" So he was a cultivator—"I am going to the field." So he said, "Better go home. Don't go to the field." So he was a respectable physician, so he went back. So his students asked that, "How is that, you asked him to go home?" So he chastised his stu..., "You do not know that he is coughing and the sound is like this? He will die after eight hours." It is experience. The students did not know but he could understand, "Coughing under such and such sound, it means death after such and such time." Yes. That, kavirāja can tell. When my father died, the kavirāja said, "Now you can do the rituals because he will die before next morning." He said. And actually it so happened. He said me this about ten, eleven o'clock, and he said exactly, "Before next morning he'll die." So that is experience. If you say, "After twenty days the month of January is coming," the child cannot understand, "How father said that twenty days after, January is coming?" But it is better experience only that one can say, "Today is 10th, and after twenty days, 1st January, will come." Everything is experience but supreme experience is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore if we receive experience from Him, then our experience becomes perfect. This is our proposal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If I am the boss of my body...
Prabhupāda: You are boss of your body in the sense that you can utilize your body in any manner you like, so much. But there are other condition which is beyond your... Suppose... so long you are living, you can utilize your body, your senses, to understand the ultimate goal of life. But you cannot utilize your life in such a way that you will never die. That is not possible.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I am controlled also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why don't you understand that? You are controlled always. (break) You are walking. This is also controlled. At any moment you can be paralyzed, at any moment.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Bali Mardana: ...they are all running away.
Prabhupāda: They are so good Christian that at the time of danger, they're all going away to Canada. Just see-afraid of death, even though they are preaching themselves, priest, they are also the same common man, afraid of death. And if we people keep to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are not afraid of death. For going from one place to another, that's all. Going home, nobody becomes afraid going back to home. He becomes pleased. (break) You avoid death, there is no death. Viṣaya.(?) If we simply practice this, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma... No more death. Finished death. This is a fact. (break) ...or do something for Kṛṣṇa. Don't waste time, single moment. Then your... No more death. Because this is deathless condition. And the changing of the body, that is momentary, that is all.
Bali Mardana: So our service is deathless.
Prabhupāda: Ah? Deathless...
Bali Mardana: Devotional service.
Prabhupāda: ...yes, this is deathless position.
Bali Mardana: But if we stop serving...
Prabhupāda: You admit or not, theologian? (devotee laughs) Eh? Eh? Or you have got anything to say? This is deathlessness.
Bali Mardana: Because the soul is acting.
Prabhupāda: Karma-kāṇḍa. There are three kāṇḍas: karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa and upāsanā-kāṇḍa. So upāsanā-kāṇḍa is bhakti. So instead of accepting this upāsanā-kāṇḍa, worshiping the Supreme, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), if one takes to the other processes, karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa, they are viṣera bhāṇḍa, they're all poison pots. The result is, if they take to that path, then their, this transmigration of the soul, will continue, and they'll have to eat all nasty things. Because this time you may be human being. And next time you may be hog. So this is karma-kāṇḍa jñāna-kāṇḍa kevala viṣera bhāṇḍa, the all poison pots. Simply bhakti-kāṇḍa, we have to take. Otherwise our life is at risk. The jñāna-kāṇḍa is also not safe, because their ultimate goal of jñāna-kāṇḍa is to merge into Brahman. But there, they cannot stay. Because in Brahman simply it is eternal life, eternity, but there is no ānanda. but we are seeking ānanda. In the Brahman... Suppose if you are asked that "You will eternally live in this land, will you like that? You'll never die. You'll live eternally, but nobody will come here. Nobody will talk with you." Will you like that?
Devotee: No. Nobody would.
Prabhupāda: So the Brahman realization is like that. Every living entity, he wants ānanda. Ānanda means just like we are walking together, talking together. This is ānanda. If I would have walked alone, it would have been no ānanda. I do not like. Nobody likes. So ānanda means there must be entourage. Therefore ānanda is with Kṛṣṇa. When we play with Kṛṣṇa, we dance with Kṛṣṇa, talk with Kṛṣṇa, serve Kṛṣṇa, take care of Kṛṣṇa, then there is ānanda. And simply to become one with the Brahman, then you will have to fall down again. Therefore jñāna-kāṇḍa is not perfect. And karma-kāṇḍa is, you can migrate from one body to another or one planet to another. You'll be brahmāṇḍa bhramite. You have to wander. And jñāna-kāṇḍa means you merge. That is also intolerable. Therefore unless you come to bhakti-kāṇḍa, there is no question of real life and bliss. That is the conclusion.
Prabhupāda: You are exploited always. Why do you blame this man or that man? You are being exploited by māyā. Where is your position of freedom?
Yogeśvara: They say, "Well, māyā we cannot fight, but we can fight the government."
Prabhupāda: Why should you fight? If you cannot... Suppose you cannot... Can you fight with death? Māyā, māyā has imposed upon you death. So fight with māyā, that there will be no death. That you cannot do. So you are always, what is called, defeated. That is your position. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). So best thing is surrender to Kṛṣṇa for protection. That is wanted. We don't think, "minority." Suppose... Hare Kṛṣṇa people, how many there are in the Paris City? How many?
Yogeśvara: Seventy, eighty.
Prabhupāda: So we are not sorry that minority. Where is the...? Insignificant. Don't talk of minority. But we are not sorry. Minority, majority, all these are foolishness. The whole platform is mistaken. (pause) Rūpa Gosvāmī was a minister. He was in the majority. But voluntarily, he accepted minority. He went to Vṛndāvana and living alone, underneath a tree. He was enjoying so much honor. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīm. His associates were big, big zamindars, big businessmen, politicians. Because he's minister. But he preferred to resign that post and become a minority, to live alone in Vṛndāvana underneath a tree. Why he preferred this? And remaining there alone, he has given you the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. So we have to see how much service we are going to give Kṛṣṇa. This minority, majority, these are all material conception of life. If you can give major service to Kṛṣṇa, that is your success of life. I started this movement alone, minority. Is it not?
Yogeśvara: Yes, one.
Yogeśvara: So... Shall I explain that one? What the good Pastor—are they called Pastor?—describes is that in order for there to be a dialogue, we have to respect each others' positions, not that we will try to convert the other. He says just as we respect you have an absolute faith in the Vedic philosophy, so also there must be respect that the Christian interpretation of the life of Lord Jesus and his death...
Prabhupāda: Oh, I think I have better respect than him to Jesus Christ. I say he does not die. He says he dies. (French) So far respect is concerned, I have more respect than them. They want to see Jesus Christ dead. I don't want to see him dead.
French Woman: No. Death and resurrection after, Jesus.
Yogeśvara: There's a resurrection.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogeśvara: Excuse me. Perhaps at this time we can introduce Madame, Madame Devi?
Jyotirmayī: So we'd like to introduce Mrs. Devi, who came here also to meet you. She's a very wonderful lady. She's writing a dictionary of mysticism, and she did the whole first part on Western religions, and now she wants to do the following part on the Eastern religions. So she would like very much to talk in this book about ourselves, about the movement of Hare Kṛṣṇa which is a big part of the Oriental religions.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Recently, there was a historical excavation that Jesus Christ did not die, and he, after crucification, he was taken to Kashmir.
Yogeśvara: Kashmir?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (French)
Reverend Powell: What does devotional service mean in that context?
Prabhupāda: Purport?
Satsvarūpa: "Purport: Birth, death, old age and diseases affect this material body, but not the spiritual body. There is no birth, death, old age and disease for the spiritual body, so one who attains a spiritual body, becomes one of the associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and engages in eternal devotional service, is really liberated. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: I am spirit. It is said that one should understand that he is Brahman—spirit soul. This Brahman conception of life is also in devotional service, as described in this verse. The pure devotees are transcendentally situated on the Brahman platform, and they know everything about transcendental and material activities."
Reverend Powell: "Transcendental" means spiritual, does it?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reverend Powell: As opposed to material. And...
Prabhupāda: So they are always engaged in transcendental devotional service.
Reverend Powell: Always.
Prabhupāda: Always. Then they'll be freed from birth, death, old age and disease.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, this is example. By receiving a knowledge, you must corroborate by your knowledge or by your experience, by the method. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said that Arjuna was declining to fight in the war. So Kṛṣṇa said that "You are simply lamenting on this body, but you do not know what is the active principle of the body." So this you can understand very nicely, that everyone is working for this body, but nobody knows what the active principle of the body. Without the active principle of the body, this body, alive or dead, is the same thing, lump of matter. So Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as teacher; therefore He is chastising him that "You are talking like a learned man, but you are lamenting on this body, but no learned man laments on this body, either dead or alive." Because without the knowledge of the active principle which is moving the body, what is the use of simply understanding the bodily construction? The medical science knows the construction of the body, anatomy, physiology, the bone, this muscle, the blood and everything, but he does not know what is the active principle. When the active principle gone, they cannot repair it. So there may be vast advancement of medical science, but if the medical science cannot check birth, death, old age and disease, then what is the use of it? It may have some temporary use, but actually it is not science. Nobody wants to die. Is there medical science which can stop death? So that knowledge may be temporary, beneficial, but ultimately, it is not the knowledge. I am anxious for not dying. Nobody wants to die. This is my anxiety. And where is that science, medical science? So we are satisfied with some temporary knowledge. We have no ultimate knowledge. And because it is very difficult subject matter, we have avoided it very carefully.
Prabhupāda: No. In the past there was winter season. In the present there is winter season. Therefore I can say next January will be winter season. That is nice. But if it is not happened in the past or present, how you can say? That proposition is not accepted. In the past there was birth, death, old age, and disease, in the present there is birth, death, old age, and disease, and in the future there will be birth, death, and old age and disease. This conclusion is all right. In the past there was birth, death, old age, and disease. At the present there is birth, death, and old age, disease. How you can say in the future there will be no birth, no death, no old age...? That proposal is not very sound. You can say whimsically; that is another thing. But factually it is not possible.
Indian man: Guruji, according to the bhakti-yoga, a person starting at least in the elementary way of bhakti-yoga...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Indian man: In the elementary way, if he starts...
Prabhupāda: What is that elementary way?
Indian man: Half-heartedly.
Prabhupāda: No, no what is that process elementary?
Indian man: In the dvaita way. In the dvaita way, not in the advaita way, assuming that He is different and I am different. That is the elementary way of starting worship.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is always. Why elementary?
Devotee: Prabhupāda, according to archeological findings primitive man, before, when they would get some disease they would just die. And now modern science has developed so nicely...
Prabhupāda: That is there. And who is not dying now?
Devotee: Well, but...
Prabhupāda: Well, well, well...
Devotee: ...they died at thirty, forty years old. Now we're dying at a hundred years old.
Prabhupāda: So what is the difference? You die after forty years or hundred years? These trees dies after thousands years. Does it mean the trees are better than you? (Devotees laugh) If one dies after one thousand years, does it mean his life is successful?
Devotee: But all of us want to live longer.
Prabhupāda: Why? Who is allowing to live long? If you trying to live longer, already trees are living longer than you. Then a tree is better than you? By living longer you want to take some credit, then trees should be given that credit. That is the point. Many big, big men, they lived for short time. Just like Śaṅkarācārya lived for thirty-two years, Caitanya Mahāprabhu lived for forty-eight years. They're still living! There are so many followers of Śaṅkarācārya, so many followers of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇa, told that He lived for 125 years and Kṛṣṇa is still living.
Prabhupāda: Just hear.
Amogha: He says hear for a moment.
Kim: I'm listening, of course.
Prabhupāda: Ātmā's nature. One question should be understood, thoroughly. You have asked what is the nature of ātmā. The ātmā's nature is that he is eternal. He never dies. Never takes birth. He is already existing. Just like, you were a child, you were a baby. The body is no longer existing. Your childhood body is no longer existing, but you know that you were a child. You remember your childhood days. Therefore, you are different from the body. The body is passed away, but you remember that you had a body like that. Therefore you exist. You know that you'll become an old man. So this body will not exist. Another body you will get, old age body. Therefore you will exist; the body will change. Now try to understand this fact first of all, and if you cannot understand, ask questions.
Kim: The ātman, there is one to a person, or there is only one ātman?
Prabhupāda: You are ātmā, I am ātmā, we are not one. You are individual, I am individual. I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me. So how one?
Kim: I beg your pardon?
Prabhupāda: How it is one?
Prabhupāda: Nobody is independent. And still, everyone is thinking independent, "I can do anything I like." Yesterday morning we were talking. You are independent. That is, means, misuse of independence. Just like in a state every citizen is independent but dependent on the state laws. If he forgets that, that "I am not dependent on the state laws," then he is foolish. Similarly, if one does not know that "The nature's law is the God's law, state laws; I cannot violate it," (sic:) then he is sober. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). One man is dying. A dhīra knows that he is changing his body; he is not dying. He will get another body. Dhīra, sober. And one who is not sober, he says, "No, life is finished." Or he can imagine he is going to heaven or hell. But a dhīra knows what is going to happen to him. If he was in the material modes of nature, goodness, then he is going to higher planetary system. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti. From śāstra we can understand. If he is in passion, then he will stay in this material world.
And if he is in ignorance, then he is going to be animal. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. He knows. So he understood what is meant by first-class men?
Amogha: He seemed to understand a lot. I don't know if he could understand completely, but...
Prabhupāda: No...
Paramahaṁsa: As he walked out the door he said, "Now I have to go back and lead my fourth-class life." (laughter)
Amogha: Yes, he said that.
Prabhupāda: He does not say, "Give Me animals." Because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, we cannot take anything which is not accepted by Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (2): Are blood transfusions permissible, Swami?
Paramahaṁsa: He says, "Are blood transfusions permissible?" When one is in an accident or cut and he loses blood, they take another man's blood and put it it. He says...
Prabhupāda: Well, that is not bad. Because if one life is saved by transfusion admission... He is not dying. He is living. He is contributing his blood. So if he is contributing, you are saving some life, there is no harm.
Guest (2): But blood is animal tissue. (break)
Prabhupāda: How they liked?
Paramahaṁsa: Um, the younger ones liked better. The nurse was asking where she could..., if she could refer people to visit us here, and I told her we don't know if this will be the permanent address, but as soon as we have a permanent address here I'll notify her. But she was wondering if she could send people, if the people would be welcome to come and visit and see the place here. And the Buddhist boy, he bought an incense from us. He said, "Where is that nice smell coming from?" I said, "Incense." He said, "I want some." The other gentlemen I don't... They're more set in their ways kind of men. I couldn't tell whether they were impressed or not. They don't express very well.
Prabhupāda: No, the same sound. Sound is the same; when you are impure, this is material. Just like the tongue is the same, but when you are suffering from jaundice, you are tasting sugar as bitter, and when you will be cured, then the same tongue will taste it is sweet. So it depends on the purification of the body. Whole this bhakti-yoga or any yoga, the whole system is purification. Tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). Our existence is now impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age, and disease. And when it is purified, without any contamination, then there is no birth, death, old age. In diseased condition you cannot relish. Even if you are given actually rasagullā you will not taste it very nice. If there is no appetite, even it is rasagullā, it is useless. Spiritual life means curing the contamination of material disease. That is spiritual life. And when you are purified, you relish the spiritual taste.
Madhudviṣa: That is a subjective experience. When you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa you can say, "Oh, I feel good," but to someone who won't chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, if there was some objective way of measuring the difference between the Hare Kṛṣṇa sound and the sound of, let's say, someone's name.
Prabhupāda: No, the sound is the same. I gave you the example. The tongue is the same, but according to your condition of life you taste differently. Tongue is not different. But if you are diseased, then with this tongue you taste something else. And if you are in healthy condition, with the same tongue you can taste differently.
Prabhupāda: ...bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking by material adjustment they will be happy. That is not possible. But they are so fools, they do not think over it, that "Where is the solution? You have given me the chance to live in a skyscraper building, but is that solution of the problems?" They have no brain to ask this. Is it...? Does it mean that if you live in a skyscraper building there will be no death, no disease, no old age? Then where is the solution? But real problem is going on. Everyone is trying to save himself from disease, from old age, from death. Why do they go to the physician as soon as there is some disease? "That I may not die." The attempt is to save from the death, but ultimately they are dying. They have no brain to think of it. Why do they go to the physician as soon as one is diseased? Why do they go?
Amogha: They want to be well.
Prabhupāda: Yes, then "well" means they want to save themself from death. That means they want not to die. But death is there. Then where is the solution of problem? But they have no brain to think that "What these rascals will do? My problem is there. It is not solved." And still they accept. Therefore in the Bhāgavata it is said, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). They are eulogized, they are praised, glorified, by another animal. He is an animal, big animal, and a small animal says, "Oh, you are our leader." The big animal is praised by the small animal. Both of them are animals. None of them are human being. So this is going on. A big animal bluffs him that "I have done so much for you. You give me vote." That's all. And the small animal thinks, "Yes, he has done so much. Give him vote." This is going on. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ. Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that one blind man is leading other blind men. What is the use?
Prabhupāda: No, no, eternal does not mean not fall. Suppose you are now professor. So you can fall down from your position. But that does not mean you are not eternal. If you are fall down from your position, you do not lose your eternity. You simply fall down. You can become a professor; you can become an ordinary man. But you are eternal in all circumstance. Eternal... Fall down does not mean that he loses his eternal. That is stated that na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Find out. Ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. The living entity is never born or it never dies. This is eternity. You change your body, but you eternal.
Dr. John Mize: It's so puzzling, though, why I would spend eternity...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore he requires that sattva-guṇa qualification.
Dr. John Mize: The what qualification?
Prabhupāda: That sattva-guṇa, goodness.
Dr. John Mize: I'm sorry...
Prabhupāda: Goodness.
Dr. John Mize: Goodness?
Bahulāśva: The mode of goodness.
Prabhupāda: Anyone who goes to that eternal nature, he hasn't got to come back again to this material nature. The material nature has been explained as duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Material nature is full of miserable condition. And the most miserable condition is explained as janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi: (BG 13.9) birth, death, old age and disease. So we living entities, we are eternal, part and parcel of God. God is eternal and we are also eternal. Just like gold and little portion of gold. Both of them are gold, but the big gold and the small gold, that is different. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, qualitatively we are one; quantitatively we are different. Although we are different, still, in the spiritual world we can enjoy the same facilities in cooperation with God. We are trying to be happy in this material world. That is not possible. Because here there are four principles of miserable condition, which we cannot avoid. They are birth, death, old age and disease. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as birth, death, old age, and disease. Therefore in this life, in the human form of life, where we come after evolutionary process, 8,400,000 species of life, our consciousness being developed, we should decide now whether we shall remain within this material world or we shall go to the spiritual world where the life is eternal. There is no birth, death, old age and disease. So the Vedic civilization trains all human being how to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is Vedic civilization. We cannot be happy in this temporary material life. We are working very hard, but if we work a little only, not very hard, there is no need of working very hard. We have created a civilization that we have to work very hard. The Vedic civilization does not recommend that for sense gratification, you shall simply work very hard, day and night. This is not very good life. You should know what is the value of life, what is the aim of life. God has provided everything for our living condition. We should be satisfied, whatever is alloted by God, and save time for being promoted to the spiritual world. That is the arrangement already there by nature.
Prabhupāda: Eighty years old.
Reporter (2): What will happen...
Prabhupāda: I was born in 1896, now you can calculate.
Reporter (2): What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die?
Prabhupāda: I will never die.
Devotees: Jaya! Hari bol! (laughter)
Prabhupāda: I shall live for my books, and you will utilize.
Reporter (2): Are you training a successor?
Prabhupāda: Yes, my Guru Mahārāja is there. Where is my photo of Guru Mahārāja? I think... Here is.
Reporter (2): Why does the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement not engage in social protest?
Prabhupāda: We are the best social worker. People are fools and rascals. We are teaching them nice idea of God consciousness. We are the best social worker. We will stop all crimes. What is your social work? Producing hippies and criminals. That is not social work. Social work means the population must be very peaceful, wise, intelligent, God conscious, first-class man. That is social work. If you produce some fourth-class, fifth-class, tenth-class of men what is social work? We are producing that. Just see. Here is first-class man. They do not have any bad habit, illicit sex, intoxication, meat eating, or gambling. They are all young men. They are not addicted to all these things. This is social work.
Prabhupāda: What they will do by serving science? The birth, death is already there. So they are becoming saner, that "What is the use of wasting time in this way? We cannot solve any problem." That is sense. They cannot solve any... He is still alive or died?
Dharmādhyakṣa: He's alive.
Prabhupāda: So ask him that "Find out some bomb that you will not die. Why don't you do that?" (laughter) Yes. "People are dying, and you have invented something to die very soon. So why don't you invent something that you will never die? Can you do that? Therefore we are no more interested in science. It is a waste of time." Tell him. You go your professor. "You are regretting that young men are no more interested. So this is our reason because, after all, we have to die. Everything will be finished. Then what is the use of studying? You have not improved anything. The animals have also two legs, and two, four legs. We have got also four legs and where is the difference? You say, the Darwin's theory, from monkey, man has come, but you never shown us that a monkey has ever given birth to a man. So all this false propaganda, we are no more interested." (break)
Bahulāśva: ...Los Angeles you told Svarūpa Dāmodara that in twenty-five more years science will be finished.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Science is already finished. He is regretting that no young man is interested. That means it is finished already. That's a fact. (break) ...is finished, so-called religion is finished, so-called politics is finished—everything. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Because they have finished God, everything will be finished. Zero, only zero.
Bahulāśva: The whole human civilization.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will be...
Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are hearing from you and your books that we will die, and we must learn to face these problems as you mentioned, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), but still, even as your disciples, we are not so convinced.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: Because we've been brought up in a culture where we've been taught that we will never die. Particularly in America we never even see death here.
Prabhupāda: You think you will not die?
Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: I know I will, but how can we realize that, come to the platform of realizing?
Prabhupāda: Everyone is dying, your father is dying, your mother is dying, your friend is dying, and still if you cannot understand, then how it will be possible to make you understand? Every day you see so many people are dying. Ahāny ahāni lokāni gacchanti yamālayam iha. Every moment, every day, we see so many animals or men are dying. Śeṣaḥ sthitam icchanti kim āścaryam... But those who are living he is thinking, "I will not die." Death is inevitable but still, he is thinking, "I will not die." Therefore that is the problem. Everyone is dying, and everyone is trying not to die. This is the problem. Nobody wants to die, but everyone is dying. That problem this rascal scientist cannot solve. Therefore they are like dogs, and to catch their tail is like that. Yes. And that is the real problem. Everyone is dying, and everyone is trying not to die.
Prabhupāda: The same thing. Is there any place where people do not die? Then?
Indian man: Besides maybe Kṛṣṇaloka also.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Within this material.
Indian man: On earth, everywhere, everybody.
Prabhupāda: Our real problem is to go there, where there is no death. That is real intelligence. And what is the use of going here and there where death is inevitable?
Indian man: Now, in Brahmaloka there is also.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Brahmā also dies.
Indian man: Brahmā also dies. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...plants are within the sea?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Down?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Some plants live underneath the water.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And why these rascals say there is no life? We see underneath the water there is life, and in the moon planet there is no life? We have to believe this?
Harikeśa: But if we're always thinking of death, how can we enjoy life now?
Prabhupāda: But death is sure. If you are not thinking, then you are a rascal. That is the point. (laughs) Death is sure. And if you are not thinking, then you are a rascal. That is the proof. Suppose I am sitting here, we are walking here, and some danger is coming. It will immediately kill. So shall I remain here very peacefully? First of all make insurance, just like they make insurance, that no death will come. Your scientific advancement, your so many advancement, make it sure that you will not die. You will live here comfortably forever. Then you make your house nice, decorate it very... Where is that arrangement?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if death is sure in any case... If death is sure in any case, for the thinking man or for the nonthinking man, then why think about it?
Prabhupāda: No, non... For thinking men, for them there is no death; there is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between thinking men and nonthinking men. We are preparing for going... (break) There is... Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). That is intelligence. Now, suppose that here is open field. There is... We are walking very nicely. And the downtown, congested city, that is not very nice. So at least, if I don't spoil my energy to make the place uncomfortable, if I save my energy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in this open field, that is intelligence or that is intelligent? Which is intelligent? We are also going to die. That's all right. But we are going to die like intelligent person, not like cats and dogs. That is the difference.
Harikeśa: Well, only some people commit suicide. As far as I'm concerned, I'm very happy. I have my car, my air conditioner...
Prabhupāda: That means you are fool number one. That means you are fool number one. As soon as you say, "I am happy," it is immediately proved that you are a rascal, fool number one.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But everyone is afraid of death. They don't like the idea of dying. Put if off.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore, you cure that first of all; then prolong life that there will be no death. Then you prolong life is... Make some understand. Can go this side?
Harikeśa: So it's not possible that anyone's happy? There is no possibility of anyone being happy.
Prabhupāda: No. One who thinks he is happy, he is number one fool.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is searching after material happiness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But there is no happiness.
Harikeśa: What about if one is in the mode of goodness? Maybe one or two...
Prabhupāda: Mode of goodness... If he thinks that he is happy, then he is fool. The mode of goodness means one must know that we cannot be happy here. That is mode of goodness. And if he thinks, "I am happy," then he is not in mode of goodness. He's in darkness.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So everyone at present is trying to become happy by this or that activity.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Will you live forever?
Indian man: No, sir.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you speak that many are living? You cannot live. That is nature's law. You must die-today or tomorrow. It doesn't matter.
Indian man: They died before time comes. People die before time if there is no...
Prabhupāda: At the present moment they are not dying?
Indian man: Not... They should... There have been more deaths than...
Prabhupāda: So more or less, they are dying. Can you stop it? This is all bluffing, and fools are bewildered by these, all these propositions. You have to die today or tomorrow. Can you stop your death?
Indian man: No.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the benefit of this? And pay the scientists money for bluffing. You'll die today or tomorrow. It doesn't matter. Why you are anxious? After all, we have to die. Just like we are in a friend's place. We have to vacate it. And if two days' advance, "All right, you can remain two days," that means I have got the proprietorship of the house? It is all nonsense. You have to die. Stop this death; then there is credit. If I become proprietor of the house, there is credit. And if I am living for four days, if they give concession, "All right, you can live two days more," is that very great benefit? I'll have to leave it. Similarly, you will have to die today or tomorrow. It doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: Nobody is... Rascals and fools will that: "I'll not die. Tomorrow I shall die. (laughter) Tomorrow." This is rascal. These things will be done by the rascals. "I'll not die today. I'll die tomorrow." This is rascaldom.
Indian man: About religion, Swamijī. Religion is capable to stop death?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Here the... Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That is our proposal, to go back to home, back to Godhead. No more death.
Indian man: After death no death?
Prabhupāda: No death.
Indian man: Okay, then, Swamijī, we should...
Prabhupāda: "After death" means we have got this body; we'll have to leave it. That is certain. But after leaving this body, you are not going to get another body which will die. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If they can manufacture some medicine that "You have suffered from diseases. Now you take this medicine—no more disease," then there is credit, no more disease. But there is no guarantee.
Indian man: One kind of disease.
Prabhupāda: One kind or another kind, disease is disease. Disease is disease. It is foolish for the person to think, "If I would have gotten that disease, it was better for me." This is foolish, another foolishness. Disease is disease. Disease means suffering. You have to suffer, that's all, this disease or that disease.
Prabhupāda: That is the disease. That is the disease. A diseased man never thinks that he is diseased. He thinks, "I am quite all right." But a physician will say, "Oh, no, no, you are diseased." He says, "I am quite all right." Cancer. And then, after few days, finished. They do not know that "Why I am dying?" They think death is natural. But Bhagavad-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They have no brain to inquire that here is information that even after the destruction, the jīva does not die. But he does not inquire. He says, "Death is natural. Let me die." This is blind. They agree to die. And Bhagavad-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: (BG 2.20) "There is no death even after destruction..." They will not inquire about this. So blind. So blind. This should be inquiry, that "If it is a fact that even after destruction of the body I do not die, then what is that position?" That inquiry is also not there. They are so fool. That is human life, athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about the spirit soul. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) Bhelpuri? Very popular. Yes. Picnic.
Harikeśa: The scientists will say that their particles are smaller than one ten-thousandth the tip of a hair.
Prabhupāda: First of all find out one ten-thousandth. Then talk. Find out.
Harikeśa: They make measurements with, to the twenty-second power, like a decimal point and twenty-two zeroes and then a one. We were just talking about quarks.
Prabhupāda: Quarks?
Harikeśa: Quark. Yes. The quark is the... There are things called hedons, and the quark is the smallest possible combination of elements that make a hedon, which makes up the protons and electrons. They haven't seen them yet. They just thought they might be there.
Prabhupāda: Again, "Might be. Maybe." (break)
Prabhupāda: Ātmā is doing; therefore ātmā is suffering. You are not doing. When the ātmā is born out of your body, body does not do anything. Then...
Indian man: Ātmā...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man: Ātmā is amara. So it is eternal, it has no death, no life, no.... It has got a birth, it has got a death that only are superfluous, say only for consolation. But actually it does not die. Body dies, or body destroyed, and that is (indistinct) or suffering. But, when I do something good or bad in this life, see, I am doing.
Prabhupāda: You are doing, and therefore you must suffer.
Indian man: But that is not ātmā. Why ātmā is...
Prabhupāda: ...do not know.
Indian man: (indistinct) ...even (indistinct) ātmā.
Girirāja: You are the ātmā.
Indian man: Not ātmā.
Prabhupāda: You do not understand that you are ātmā. Aham brahmasmi. That you do not understand. You think "I am body." That is nonsense.
Indian man: That point is not clear.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: You are not poor. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: We are poor as compared to.... We just live, no? Three percent(?) we acquire for our status.(?) We don't require much money.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...death.
Dr. Patel: Death is an artifact. There is no death. That is what Arjuna thought, and now, still, sir, you say they are dead. What is death? There is no death?
Prabhupāda: Arjuna's thought is different. That is Arjuna's thought. I mean these people, these materialists...
Dr. Patel: Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo aśoṣya eva ca.
Prabhupāda: ...they are actually dying and they are flying also.
Dr. Patel: Who is dying? The body. The body is nothing but the earth.
Prabhupāda: They have no such conclusions. We have got, that is a different thing, but they are trying to kill the mosquitoes to save themselves, but they cannot save. That is my point. They cannot save. When the "death mosquito" will come, he has to accept it. That he cannot manu...
Dr. Patel: He, after all, is what we call ego. When the ego dies, then, sir, there is no he or she or mosquito or man or anything, sir.
Prabhupāda: But he is not that man. He is trying to kill the mosquito to save himself from death. But that he cannot. That is my proposal.
Prabhupāda: Then... That is the distinction between you and the stone. Otherwise you would have remained as stone. Because you are moving, therefore He has given you the independence.
Guru-kṛpā: There is also a question in that same line. They say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful, there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Kṛṣṇa in such conditions? This is a very...
Acyutānanda: The original sin.
Sudāmā: Why we are envious,
Guru-kṛpā: How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guru-kṛpā: How is it that...
Prabhupāda: That is independence. That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate.
Sudāmā: It is very hard thing to understand.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult.
Prabhupāda: No, no, death.... What is the distinction between death and life? You are now dressing with these coat, pants, and this same body, same hair. Now, something will be minus—you'll be called dead. What is that something? That you do not know. Eh?
Brian Singer: The "you."
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Devotee (2): Yes, the person.
Brian Singer: The person.
Prabhupāda: Person. But the person you have never seen. You have never seen. I am seeing you: I am seeing your body, hat, coat, pant, hair. That's all. And dead body also, I will see the same thing. But I say, "Now the person is gone." Then but you have never seen the person. Now you say the person is gone, but before that, you were never interested with the person; you were interested with this body, coat, pant, hair, and that's all. That's all. That is ignorance.
Brian Singer: Well, how do you see the person? By understanding? By...
Prabhupāda: So when.... At least in America or any civilized country, there is ample food for human being. Why they should kill? If you can live without killing cows, if you can utilize cows in a different way.... Just like we are maintaining a farm—not one, many. They are maintaining cows and we are getting enough milk. And from milk we can prepare varieties of palatable, vitaminous, nutritious food. And that is very, very enjoyable. So let the animal live and take the milk, and just like we.... None of us, we take meat, but we are not dying. We are having so many nice preparation from milk, from grains, from fruit. Besides that, our another principle is that we offer to God. So God said that "Give Me vegetables, milk," like that. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So we offer these things, and we take the leftover. That is our principle. We are not after killing or not killing. We are simply after obeying the orders of Kṛṣṇa. That is our. So Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me food from the vegetables." So we offer Him very nice, palatable dishes and eat. This is our principle. So even while eating, we remember God: "Kṛṣṇa has so nicely eaten this. Let me take the remnants." So while eating, we are remembering God. So if God said that "You remember Me always," we can do it. He has explained how to remember Him. He said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: (BG 7.8) "I am the taste of the water." So when you drink.... Who is not drinking water? At least three times, four times we drink water, everyone. So when you drink, and the water quenches your thirst, and you feel some taste nice, Kṛṣṇa says, God says, "I am that taste." So where is my difficulty to remember God? If you simply remember this formula, that "The taste of the water is Kṛṣṇa," immediately you remember Kṛṣṇa. Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. "I am the shining of the sun, shining of the moon." So who does not see the shining of the sun and the moon? At night you see the shining of moon, and day you see.... So where is the chance of forgetting God? There is no chance at all. As soon as you see the sunshine even, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." As soon as see the moonshine, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." As soon as you taste water, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: It is not my—everyone's. You are in ignorance; you do not know; therefore we are trying to educate you. It is yours also. It is not a personal thing. It is meant for the living entities. That you people, you do not know, that we are all living entities. There is slight description of the evolution by Darwin. But he's also not in perfect knowledge. The real fact is the..., I am not this body, you are not this body. I am living entity within this body. Just like you are within your coat and shirt. The coat and shirt you are not. Similarly, we living entities, we are within this gross and subtle body. The gross body is made of earth, water, air, fire, and the subtle body is made of mind, intelligence, and egotism. So we are within this. So nobody knows; there is no educational system, what is our real constitutional position. We are wrongly accepting this body. And that kind of acceptance is there in the animals. The dog also thinking that "I am this body." So if I am thinking like that, "I am this body," then what is the difference between the dog and me? We are educating from him that point of view, that the living entity is entrapped within this body, and according to his desire, he's changing different types of body and undergoing continually birth and death. So in order to save him from the cycle of birth and death, one has to understand God, or Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means God. Then he comes to his real, identical position as spiritual body, and then he lives forever. He lives forever. Just like a man changing constantly dresses; that does not mean he's dying. Similarly, we do not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). After destruction of this body, we are not dying. We remain. But we simply accept another body. So this is a great botheration. But people are in ignorance. They're thinking that after death there is no life. This ignorance is a great, I mean to say, difficult position. So we are trying to educate them how to get out of this entanglement of cycle, birth and death. And therefore there are so many books on this subject matter. It is a very serious movement. It is not compared to the so many rascal movements. So if you are serious, you can study our books, you can try to understand the philosophy, science; then the whole human society will be benefited.
Hari-śauri: Because they don't know who the proprietor is, they're thinking "I can take this for myself."
Prabhupāda: Therefore America has so much over-production. Let the hungry men come here. Greediness is not allowed. Whatever... Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). This is śāstra. Everything belongs to God. Whatever He allots to you, you take it. In the family the father says, "My dear boy, take of this." That's all. Why should he claim more? The father knows how much he'll eat, and He'll give it. He's supplying the elephant his food, the ant his food. Elephant's not dying starvation. Why you are worried? You want to eat forty kilos. All right. Take it. The father is able to supply. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He's supplying everyone.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...not a practical solution.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the knowledge, real knowledge. Eight million, four hundred thousand forms of life, and the supreme father is supplying food to everyone. And each form millions, millions. You'll find millions of one type of fish within the water. And there are nine hundred thousand different forms of fishes. They are eating within this water. Who is supplying them food? We cannot imagine even what is the food there within the water. But there is. Otherwise, how they are living? They have no scarcity.
Hari-śauri: Neither there's any overpopulation either.
Prabhupāda: Neither. Overpopulation, the fish, they lay eggs hundreds and thousands at a time. You know that? There is not..., unlimited number of eggs they lay down. (break) ...say, "Your food is ready. Just little work." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Just produce food grain. Everyone will be happy. But why they are producing motorcars only?
Prabhupāda: Yes. By nature's law it is changing every second in such swift way that we cannot understand.
Jay Warner: How does one give up the fear of dying?
Prabhupāda: There is no death. You change body. Because the body is lost, you are no more, you do not possess the childhood body, youth-hood body, that does no mean you are dead. You are living; the body has changed. But because we do not know the science, we think "The body is finished; therefore he's dead." Therefore you have to learn Bhagavad-gītā-na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. Find out the verse.
Hṛdayānanda:"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain."
Prabhupāda: That's it. So as a lawyer, when there is some dispute, you refer to the lawbook. Similarly, when there is dispute how the soul is immortal, the body is changing, you refer to Bhagavad-gītā. You find it clear, na jāyate na mriyate, clearly said. Explain?
Hṛdayānanda: Purport? "Qualitatively, the small atomic fragmental part of the supreme spirit is one with the Supreme. He undergoes no changes like the body. Sometimes the soul is called the steady..."
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Just bring little salt.
Prabhupāda: Yes, find out. This is knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means one must be able to see that what are the actual problems. Just like the scientists, the philosophers, they're trying to solve so many problems. But first of all, fix up what is the problem. Temporary problem, to make a solution, that is going on. But actual problem is this: na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The soul is not destroyed, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit, at any time. One should be very prudent to see that "If I have no birth and no death, then what is this nonsense, birth and death?" That is knowledge. Why I am dying? Why there is birth problem? Why there is death problem? And as soon as there is birth problem, there is disease problem, there is old age problem. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says.... What is the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi?
Jayādvaita: It's in the list of items of knowledge, "The perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease."
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the cure, medicine, is also given: tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then.... Everyone has to give up this body, but a person who is in thorough knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, then he, after giving up this body, he does not accept any more material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). Find out his verse.
Jayādvaita: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the solution. Therefore our only business should be to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of life. That makes the solution-tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Our propaganda is how to understand Kṛṣṇa. And this yoga, Kṛṣṇa consciousness yoga, simply thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and try to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is explained.
Prabhupāda: So this is ignorance, this is ignorance. And they are kept, the whole world—the state, the father, the guardian, everyone, the priest. Everyone is ignorant. Dull-headed ignorant. And they are passing on as philosopher, scientist, religious leader. (break) ...hard to bring them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Taking these few years, fifty years or sixty years living here, and dance like dog and finish. There is no life. You die peacefully or (indistinct). And not dying peacefully, they cry. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Kīrtanānanda: How to save them is very difficult.
Prabhupāda: Simply chant. This is the only. Give them chance to come and chant with us, take prasāda. Then after few days or few months, let them understand Bhagavad-gītā.
Devotee: We have all got this experience.
Prabhupāda: You have all got this experience. This is the only way. I started this movement on this determination, that they have nothing to give, simply by propaganda they are exacting so many people and befooling them. And I'll give them prasāda, nice chanting, and they will not come? They must come. This was my determination. And I began with this. So this is the only way. Give them chance "No talk, please come. Chant and dance with us and take kṛṣṇa-prasāda and go home."
Kīrtanānanda: I think it was just ten years ago when I first met you.
Prabhupāda: First of all, beginning with kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. So bhakti, beginning is ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅga bhajana-kriyā anartha-nivṛttiḥ (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). The material world means simply creating unnecessary duties. Simply anartha. Any material activities, you take, analyze, it is simply useless. Therefore we have called anartha. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Take for example we say no meat-eating. So what is the difficulty there? I have seen in the airplane, they eat meat, a little piece, not a lump. But because everyone is eating little, little, we require huge number of slaughterhouses. But if one decides, "I have got so many preparations to eat, so why shall I eat little meat?" (indistinct) I shall forego. Immediately he is saved from so many sinful activities. It is not that he will die if he does not eat a little piece of meat, he will die. He'll not die. We are not dying, and we don't take. So similarly everyone, without eating meat, he can live very nicely. In the whole principle, there is no difficulty. So on this principle this whole world is merged into sinful activity. (Sanskrit), unnecessary. That is material position-unnecessarily creating trouble. There is no necessity. But on account of ignorance, foolish association, sinful life, more and more and more and more going on. Andhā yathāndhair upagīyamānāḥ. And the deed is encouraged: "Yes, you do this. Enjoy life." What is his enjoyment? If anyone sees slaughterhouse, will he enjoy? Eh? What is...? He visits a slaughterhouse, is it enjoyment? But he takes as enjoyment. (Sanskrit), unnecessary, without any meaning. Mad, just like a madman acts, without any meaning. The monkey acts without any meaning. (Sanskrit), unnecessarily creating disturbance. (Sanskrit) sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all (Sanskrit) is finished. (Sanskrit) We are no more interested in unnecessary things. Illicit sex—one side they are encouraging contraceptive method, so why they'll not stop illicit sex, then automatically there is contraceptive method? So one side there is encouraged, contraceptive method, another, unlimited, unrestricted sex. This is their civilization. Why not teach him not to practice illicit sex? Then everything is done automatically. There's no need of contraceptive method. If one is trained up to indulge in sex only for begetting nice children, there is already contraceptive method. There is no necessity of unnecessarily producing cats and dogs children. So that requires training, determination. The śāstra says you should not become father if you cannot train up your children to save him from death. Who is the father who's training?
Prabhupāda: Hm. Because this prakṛti, nature, is made of three modes of material nature, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Just like we are trying to associate with sattva-guṇa—no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling. So others, they are not anxious for these thing. They will say, "What is the wrong there? You can do that." But because you are infecting that tamo-guṇa, you'll have to suffer. You'll have to become a tree; you have to become a dog. How you can stop it? Where is your science? Why the scientists dying? Why they cannot invent some means, a tablet, that "At the time of my death, push this tablet in my belly. I'll not die"? Why they are unable to do so? Who can answer this? Why the rascal scientists do not manufacture such things that there'll be no death for the scientists? Hm? What do you say? Anyone for scientists can plead? (laughter)
Devotee (1): They want to do it, Prabhupāda, but they cannot.
Prabhupāda: That is complacence. What is called? "Yes, in future we shall do." That's all. Then at present you cannot do. Then you are imperfect. Why you are declaring yourself as scientist? Scientist means who is in full knowledge. That is scientist. And if you are not in full knowledge, how you are scientist? "Big, big scientist, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." Rascals say that chemical, combination of chemical, makes life. So we challenge that you begin from an egg. Everyone sees the egg—some white substance, some yellow substance, covered with some shells. So just manufacture it and give it to the incubator, and let the chicken come. Why you take the egg from another living chicken? What is the answer? You rascal, you make one small egg. We can see there are some white substance, yellow substance, so you combine some chemicals, white and yellow, and cover it with celluloid shell and put it under the incubator. You get. Why the rascals cannot do it? And still, the rascals will say that life can be..., is combination of chemicals. Give this challenge to these rascals, that "Life is... If it is combination of chemicals, why don't you do it, the simple thing?" Yes?
Prabhupāda: If you want to transfer yourself to other planetary system, you can go. You can go to the higher planetary system, which is resided by the demigods, devas, yānti deva-vratā devān; and you can go to other planets, Pitṛloka; or you can remain here as you like; and you can go to the planet where God is there. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. So this human life, you can make your selection. After all, you have to change your body, that is compulsory. Nobody can remain here with this body, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). And we have to change our body. So we can make our selection, where we shall go next, either in the higher planetary system or the Pitṛloka or we shall remain here or we can go even back to home, back to Godhead. So we must prepare ourselves for that purpose. Then next life we can go wherever we like. But anywhere within this material world, there are four principles, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. There is birth, there is death, there is old age and disease. But if you go to the spiritual kingdom, there is no more such things, no birth, no death, no disease, no old age. Now we can make our selection. And if we do not make our selection, if we live like cats and dogs, without any responsibility, then again we become in the category of cats and dogs. Mūḍha, janmani janmani (BG 16.20), life after life, they remain like animals, without any knowledge.
Vṛṣākapi: Bill's idea is that we should go by spaceship, right?
Bill Sauer: Well, in the natural world and in the cosmos, nothing is stable. Life only survives all the things that can cause it to perish by mobility, by moving. A coconut tree on one island drops its seeds in the ocean to float for thousands of miles to wash up on another shore, so that if that island is destroyed it will have life on another island. The seed blossom of a plant is the way the plant survives. It sends its seeds off to other meadows to assure its survival. The premise here is that humanity arrived in nature very recently. We are part of nature, but we arrived very recently to give life on earth the same mobility, the same chance to survive. Among the hundreds of other planets in the universe, as a dandelion does in seeding other meadows, as a coconut palm does in surviving on other islands—the coconut palm does not know that there are other islands, but yet it launches its seeds to the unknown currents of the ocean—I believe it is our duty to launch our seeds, our space arks, launch those seeds to the unknown gravitational currents of the stars and find the hundreds of other planets that are out there, so that there cannot be enough cosmic disasters to cause life to perish. And it was meeting two or three of your people at the airport, and I asked them about—at the Washington National Airport, I think it was Meena and Mary Davis, and Sarvabhauma I believe—and I said "What about your philosophy?" He said, "We talk about living on other planets."
Prabhupāda: No, first of all about death.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The translation is, "For the soul there is never birth nor death nor having once been does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain."
Prabhupāda: So there is no question of death for a spiritually realized person.
Interviewer: Is there any method for dissent within your movement? Or change?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Reform, you mean? Changing the teaching perhaps, to fit the times?
Rāmeśvara: Just like in the church, as the public mood is changed, they have compromised on certain issues like abortion, homosexuality, priests getting married. So she wants to know if in our movement there will be this arrangement also. (laughter)
Interviewer: Well, I didn't necessarily mean the specifics.
Bali-mardana: In other words the purity is maintained by... The system is perfect to begin with so it remains perfect by being unchanged. If the system is imperfect, you may always be questioning.
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is happiness. Bhagavad-gītā points out what is your distress. Can anyone say what is the actual distress? They do not know it. Distress they are taking as usual part of life. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is philosophy, to find out what is distress. This is directly said by Kṛṣṇa, that these are distresses, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, to take birth, to die, to become old and to become diseased. But they do not know it. Not only they, everyone, all over the world, they take it as part of life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. When a man becomes diseased, when a man becomes old, or when a man dies, they take it it is usual. They have been accustomed to these distresses so much that they do not take it as distress. So this is their ignorance. This is their ignorance. They do not know what is distress and they are struggling for moving the distress. Just like this independence. They do not know what is meaning of independence. Real independence is when you are free from these four kinds of distress. Does it mean that observing this kind of independence is real independence? It is simply fictitious. If you are not free from the laws of nature, nature will enforce you to die. Then where is your independence? Nobody wants to die, so why he's enforced to die? Nobody wants to become old man. Why he's enforced to become old man? But they have no brain to understand what is independence, what is happiness. They have taken distress as happiness. So that is due to lack of knowledge. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to elevate a person to the real standard of knowledge. Without knowledge a madman can say anything. A child can speak all nonsense. That is not knowledge. Knowledge is different. So the struggle for existence means to get out of distress, but the real distress they have set aside. The problem that "I do not want to die, but I'll be enforced to die," so what is the advancement in this connection? They might have, so big, big scientists, they have discovered many, many things, but where is that thing that "Take a pill and you'll never die. Take a pill, you'll never become diseased"? They can offer me... I had some abdominal pain, so they have given me dozens of medicine. But still they are not sure whether the pain will be cured. This is their science. So in this way things are going on, in ignorance, mūḍha. Therefore they have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā as mūḍha.
Mike Robinson: I see. And so when people are taught, they will then understand. But what I'd also like to know, how would it affect the way they live? In sort of purely..., the way they go about their life.
Prabhupāda: You see they are living, these boys are living. It is not very difficult. They are not dying, they are living.
Mike Robinson: Yes, I accept that completely, but I want to know what differences, if you could tell me basically, what difference it makes to their life.
Prabhupāda: Difference is that if you accept this mode of life, it is very simplified, and no botheration, and you make your spiritual progress very easily. If you take otherwise, then it is difficult.
Mike Robinson: But are you asking people, if they accept your teachings, to retreat from the world, like for instance, the people who are surrounding us now?
Prabhupāda: No, they are not retreated. What do you mean by retreat? I am using this microphone. Where is retreatment?
Mike Robinson: Sorry, maybe retreat was the wrong word. But are you asking them, for instance, if I was to become a member of the movement...
Prabhupāda: No, we are asking that use this microphone for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for sense gratification.
Mike Robinson: Not for?
Prabhupāda: Sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this child has to be forced to do something. For his interest.
Bhagavān: Prabhupāda once gave the analogy sometimes when the horse is sick, the doctor takes the pill in the hand, he puts it down the throat.
Prabhupāda: No, we are prepared. Just like horse is not prepared to take the medicine. But four men force him to take the medicine. Nobody was crying for this edition of Bhāgavata, but we are forcing, "You must read. You must take." We are printing and forcing everyone. French edition, Bhāgavata's edition, they were not dying for this book, but this is our force.
Translator: He says thank you for this first meeting, I hope we will meet again, and when we do I will make these books even look nicer.
Prabhupāda: Very good. Do that. That will be service to Kṛṣṇa. The more you...
Translator: He says he's making the effort in order to know better.
Prabhupāda: That is nice.
Bhagavān: Tomorrow we have the schedule of events. At nine o'clock we begin with the initiations, and we'll have the purification with water, and Pṛthu-putra Mahārāja is going to give the lecture on the ten offenses. Then everyone will come back in at ten o'clock and we'll have the bathing beginning then. And that, Jayatīrtha and I figured'd be about an hour. So we thought that perhaps towards the end of that, maybe around quarter to eleven, you'd like to come down and either participate in the bathing or give lecture at that time. And then afterwards the Deities will go back on the altar and we'll give the names outside. Is that all right?
Prabhupāda: Assurance is there. Kṛṣṇa says kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhakta... (BG 9.31). If you remain a pure devotee, you'll never fall down. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). These are assurances. If you simply try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, why does He come, what are His activities. Janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9). Simply.... This is cultivation, to understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cultivation. And Kṛṣṇa assures: tyaktvā dehaṁ, you have to give up this body, but for a devotee giving up this body means no more accepting another body. And nondevotees giving up this body, tathā dehāntara prāptir, another body. That is the difference between devotee and nondevotee. One may say both of them are dying. Yes, they are dying, that's all right. They are not dying, nobody is dying, but changing the body. But a devotee's changing not to accept any more material body. The nondevotee's changing to accept another. That is the difference. And if you accept another body you will suffer, more or less, degrees. And if you don't accept material body then you become spiritually situated. Sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (Bs. 5.1), simply ānanda, eternally blissful. Very easy. So we should be intelligent enough that if by practicing in this one life I can get next eternal blissful life of knowledge, why shall I deviate? Even if there is some difficulty, let me tolerate, what is the difficulty? Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given so easy, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and everything will be done perfectly. So where is the difficulty? No difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has not bluffed. He said kalau nāsty eva: the Kali-yuga you cannot do anything more. You do simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty? A boy can chant. It is simply practice, association. Your son, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. So these chances should be given to everyone, then everything will be all right. Let him be practiced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then everything will go on. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Pradyumna: If we take that analogy, karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa, then...
Prabhupāda: Everything is going on, karma-kāṇḍa. Whole world acting fruitive activities. "Let me work and get the result." This is karma-kāṇḍa.
Pradyumna: And it is like poison. From poison we suffer and die.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is... Die means spiritual death. No spiritual idea. Otherwise, we have no death, nitya. But spiritual death is there. So your friends are satisfied or not?
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda. They said they were. I have noticed that people who are materially contaminated, when they hear spiritual preaching, they can always look at it from material point of view. For example, when you speak of designation, one boy was asking how come we are also having shaved heads and dressing like devotees. In other words, the emphasis on their minds is more on what is everybody else thinking, while the emphasis in your teaching is how you yourself can become free, not what everybody else is thinking. While our shaving of our head and dressing as devotee is a means to become free from all designation, he may be seeing other designations.
Prabhupāda: No, it does not depend on shaving head. But this is in the process.
Atreya Ṛṣi: It is in the process.
Indian man: Misery of life is to be like this only. To live like this without the divine knowledge or without...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Miseries of life, real miseries of life that you are soul, eternal. Na jāyate na mriyate vā. There is no birth, there is no death. So therefore the birth and death is real misery. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is knowledge. But they have no brain. It is clearly said that na jāyate na mriyate vā. But these rascals never think "Why I am getting birth? Why I am dying?" So rascal. It is clearly said na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Where is that education? They do not know what is miseries. And they are trying, struggling to get out of misery. But they have no knowledge what is the actual misery. And therefore Kṛṣṇa pointing out, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. This is knowledge. Simply wasting time. They do not know what is the problem of life and how to solve it. They have no education. So which way? Which way?
Mahāṁsa: Either we can go a little longer and come back, or we can go this way.
Harikeśa: The car is here if you want to go.
Prabhupāda: Separate. And that is a fact.
Devotee: Mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7).
Prabhupāda: There are so many things. But here it is said nitya-yuktā upāsate. Even they come to the platform of nitya, where there is no birth and death. That is nitya. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Even that platform, Bhagavān remains different than the devotee who worships.
Indian man (2): Eternally?
Prabhupāda: Eternally. That is nitya-yuktā upāsate. There is no oneness. Otherwise why it is nitya-yuktā upāsate? Nityo nityānām. The nityānām, plural number, and nitya, Bhagavān. So nitya-yuktā upāsate.
Indian man: If you take the kevala-bhaktas, if you take the life of a bhakta...
Prabhupāda: If you take logic, it is stated there in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Indian man: If you take bhakta-vidyā where so many sayings like Chakubhai and Namdev and all these people. If you take it... They had, they observed bhakti-mārga from the beginning, that is, they considered Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: No, they have considered that the bhakti-mārga is a means to become one.
Indian man: Means to become one. That's exactly what I mean.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their version. But that is not the version of Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Birth and death you stop as soon as you give up this material body. Material body, the birth question comes of the material body. And death also material body. Therefore it is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā.
Indian man: Yes, you are trying to do sādhanas to see what...
Prabhupāda: First of all, understand this, that the soul is never born, never dies. But we are seeing birth and death. What is that birth and death? It is of the body. But you are different from the body.
Indian man: Yes, I am different. My soul is different, the ātmā different from the body. That is the conclusion.
Prabhupāda: Birth and death applies to the body. Not to the soul.
Indian man: Yes. That, your karmas, you enjoy and suffer according to your karma.
Prabhupāda: That is body, all body.
Indian man: That is body. How long you are going to do that?
Prabhupāda: So long you are not a devotee.
Indian man: I mean even if I am a devotee, I go on doing some sins...
Prabhupāda: You become devotee, then immediately transfer to the nitya-yuktā upāsate.
Indian man: Yes, I become a devotee, a true devotee...
Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purely a spiritual movement. Therefore sometimes it is little difficult to understand the activities of this movement. There are two things, material and spiritual. That is the beginning of instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa begins with this statement: that this body is not the person, the soul is the person. Asmin dehe. Within this body there is the soul. And he has explained in different ways that this body is antavanta ime dehā (BG 2.18). This body is perishable, but the soul is not perishable. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), that even after the destruction of the body the soul is not destroyed. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. The soul never takes birth, never dies. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). There are so many things explained, what is the soul. So without the soul, this body is useless. That everyone can understand. Therefore the importance should be given to the soul, not to the body. Kṛṣṇa says that anyone who is paṇḍita, in knowledge, he does not give any importance to the body, either living or dead. So the India's particular culture is how to elevate the soul to the highest platform of perfection. That is India's culture. The whole Vedic literature is meant for that, and Bhagavad-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literature. And the purpose is that soul is now entrapped within this material world, and the human life is the opportunity for getting oneself out of this entrapment of material existence. So if we do not take care of this important business of human life—as it is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra-athāto brahma jijñāsā. This life is meant for understanding about the Brahman or the spirit soul. And there are two kinds of spirit soul. One is called the Supersoul, and the other is called the individual soul. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṣetra-kṣetrajñā. This chapter. Kṣetra means this body and kṣetrajñā means one who knows about the body. You know about your body. Not fully, but at least partially, every one of us we know, "This is my body. I am.... I got this body from such father and mother. I belong.... This body belongs to such and such country." And so on. This is one knowledge. So another soul is there. That is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. He says that kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. That is Supersoul. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is everywhere within this universe, even within the atom.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Brahma-bhūta... Jīva-bhūta, everyone is thinking, "I am this body." That is jīva-bhūta. And when understands that "I'm not body, I'm within the body," that is brahma-bhūta.
Dr. Patel: That is ādya. Perpetually Brahman...
Prabhupāda: No, this is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this point. "Why you are thinking that you are one of the family members? This is bodily concept."
Dr. Patel: Nobody is your relative, but the soul can never die. This is the body. Body has no value. Lot of mosquitoes, you know?
Prabhupāda: Mosquito? Here?
Hari-śauri: There's a few.
Prabhupāda: What is this?
Hari-śauri: This is a (indistinct).
Dr. Patel: I'm not covered (indistinct) my legs. There's a lot of mosquitoes in here.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Dr. Patel: If there's biting, (laughs) here you don't get malaria but you get elephantitis.
Prabhupāda: Maybe elephantitis.
Prabhupāda: No, we are speaking about Kṛṣṇa. So if I say that Kṛṣṇa says like this and it is a fact, then what is our fault? But they are taking very serious, just like especially nowadays in Western country they are opposing that "This philosophy is a brainwash." So this is our position. Satyaṁ brūyāt priyaṁ brūyāt mā brūyāt satyam apriyam.(?) The world situation is that you can speak truth if it is palatable. And if it is unpalatable, don't speak. But this thing cannot be maintained when you are preaching spiritual life. There we cannot cheat. Spiritual life must be declared very frankly. Not that we have to declare; it is already declared. Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The spirit soul is within this body. The body is different from the spirit soul, and as it is changing—the body is changing—similarly, after death, so-called death... Because spirit has no death, no birth. Na jāyate na mriyate vā. So this knowledge is the beginning of spiritual life. And if you are preaching, they are opposing us. India also opposing. This is our position. They take Bhagavad-gītā and they mislead them. And we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is our fault. So what we can do. Can you suggest?
CID Chief: (laughs) I am a layman. What...?
Prabhupāda: No... You should be very kind upon... And what we can do? And if I cheat in the name of Bhagavad-gītā, then I become a great leader.
CID Chief: All nation has turned... An extraordinary order, you spreading the message of Kṛṣṇa to the world, message of Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: So at least Indians should join this movement. They're feeling the weight, the Western countries. They are opposing means that those who are thoughtful, they are thinking that "If this movement allowed to go on, then our civilization will be finished." That is their... That... They are right. They are right. If these young men, they go on under my instruction, I shall finish their civilization. That's a fact. No meat-eating in Western countries? (chuckling) No intoxication? No illicit sex? No gambling? That means their life is finished. And we are imitating, that "We are becoming advanced in civilization." And we are condemning.
Prabhupāda: So why Pālikā is not helping her to get the beads?
Hari-śauri: She's already got it on. I don't know why she didn't come out.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi—woman answers in Hindi) Call Pālikā. Just teach her... Take her in the kitchen and teach her how to make tilaka.
Pālikā: How to make tilaka, yes.
Prabhupāda: Tilaka, dvādaśa-tilaka. You just go and learn. (break) What is that? (break) Otherwise there is no death. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Actually there is no death. This forgetfulness is death. We have forgotten: "Who was our father, who was our mother, where I was born?" That is death. And otherwise I am the soul, continuing. Just like in childhood so many things we did, but we have forgotten. The forgetfulness is death. The more one forgets, the more one is dead. Otherwise there is no death. Na jāyate na mriyate vā: "Never takes birth, never dies." Then what is death? Death is forgetfulness. So you can begin now. (break) ...big, big buildings, the same spirit as karmīs are doing. But this desire to construct very big building, when transferred for Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. So we have got this tendency, everyone, to possess money, to have very big buildings and so on, so on. You do it for Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be bhakti. Otherwise karma. And karma means to be bound up by the laws of nature. So? What is...? (break)
Prabhupāda: Mind is also material. Up to ether. Beyond that, ether, there is soul.
Rāmeśvara: That was a description of one person who had this experience of being outside their body.
Prabhupāda: No, no... Death means all previous experience forgotten. That is death. Otherwise there is no death.
Hari-śauri: Yes. The key here is that all these people actually came back into their bodies. They actually didn't...
Rāmeśvara: They didn't fully die.
Hari-śauri: It was just before...
Prabhupāda: They... It cannot die. There is no question of death. Simply changing the body.
Hari-śauri: But they didn't actually get to the point of transferral to another body.
Rāmeśvara: No. What's being described in this journal is that a man leaves his gross body, and then he exists in a very subtle state.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is subtle body.
Rāmeśvara: And then he goes back to the same gross body.
Prabhupāda: Not exactly the same, but another. This body is useless. By accident he loses. Mutilated, it cannot be accepted.
Rāmeśvara: But somehow they revive him. Somehow he is revived.
Satsvarūpa: If we condemn everything they do, then they say, "All right, if you think we're nonsense, then don't use our printing press for your books."
Prabhupāda: No. You are nonsense, that is accepted, but do not think that because you have manufactured printing press, you have become God. That is our proposal. We give you credit. And we can also say that without your printing press, people were not dying. Formerly people were copying. Everyone's business was going on. There was no need of mass studying. Only the brāhmaṇas, they used to copy and they used to vibrate the knowledge. And those who were interested, they were hearing and getting the knowledge. So what was the harm? It is little facility that... The same logic: The dog is running, four legs, you are running by four wheels. That does not mean that the dog will die, you'll not die. You'll die also, and dog will die. So this four-wheel car will not help you ultimately. Ultimately you have to die.
Satsvarūpa: Because it is modern times, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement can keep pace with all these things, but we don't need them. We can use this, but if we don't have it, then we don't need it.
Prabhupāda: We don't support it. Our business does not support. You can live without car, but you cannot live without rainfall. Why don't you take the important business? Make machine that the water from the sea can be drawn and saltless and distributed. Why don't you do that?
Satsvarūpa: They've put aside the big problems and doing little things.
Prabhupāda: But that... That is māyā. You'll never be happy. You are thinking like that. Who is in the material world happy? Nobody's happy. But because you are fool, you are thinking this is happiness.
Hari-śauri: He says the results are only temporary, anyway.
Prabhupāda: Temporary but it is miserable also. But you are eternal. Why you should be satisfied with temporary happiness? If you be satisfied, be satisfied. That is your business. But that is not real happiness. Why you should take repeated birth and death? If there is another life where there is no birth and death, why should you not take that? You are eternal. But because you are a fool, you think that "If I get ten thousand years of life and very comfortable life, that is happiness." That is mistake. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.20). That is also said. Why don't you refer to that...? "Such persons have lost that intelligence."
Satsvarūpa: I've heard that Ramakrishna said that even if by mistake one worships the wrong Deity, God won't hold that mistake against him. Even though he's worshiping a demigod and he thinks that's God, so that's a mistake, but God is not so...
Prabhupāda: But the Ramakrishna rascal saying. Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). If you worship demigod, you go to the demigod. You can say...
Satsvarūpa: God Himself says.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. We have not to take the instruction of a man-made God. We have to take instruction of the real God.
Hari-śauri: The second half of that verse says that "As they surrender unto Me I reward accordingly," So it's not that everybody gets the same results.
Prabhupāda: You recite that verse, nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti (SB 5.5.4). The instruction of King Ṛṣabhadeva to His sons. He said that "This body, human body..." Ayaṁ dehaḥ. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. Deha. Everyone has got deha, body. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) "After this body is finished, another body...," because ātmā, na jāyate na mriyate vā, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Ātmā is eternal. There is no birth, no death. Nitya, eternal; śāśvataḥ purāṇaḥ, the oldest; and na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Therefore this is the problem. The ātmā has no birth, no death, and neither he is dead after the annihilation of this body. But we are put into this condition. We are not put, but we have put ourself. We are putting ourself in this condition of repetition of birth and death. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Once we take birth, and again we annihilate this body. So Ṛṣabhadeva says, "This ignorance of self-realization must be removed." Therefore He says, ayaṁ dehaḥ: "This body should not be misused like animals," āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. This is the advice. Ayaṁ dehaḥ nṛloke. He especially mentions, nṛloke: "in the human form of body." The dog, cat, or doglike man, catlike man, they may remain in ignorance. They have no chance. There are uncivilized men. Although they have got two hands, two legs, but because there is no knowledge, they have been described as dvi-pada-paśu. They are animal with two legs. Other animals, they have got four legs, and this rascal has got two legs. That is the difference. So ayaṁ dehaḥ, this body, na ayaṁ dehaḥ nṛloke... Nāyaṁ dehaḥ nṛlo..., deha-bhājām. Deha-bhājām. This is also very significant. There are innumerable living entities. Jīva-bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ sa anantyāya kalpate (CC Madhya 19.140). These jīvas, living entities, part and parcel of God, anantyāya kalpate. Just like the sunshine. What is the sunshine? The sunshine, this is very atomic parts of the sun brightness. They are individual, but they are combined.
Prabhupāda: Fifty, sixty... Average India, thirty-five years. In your country a little more. Nobody lives hundred years. That is also another bluff. But even if you live for hundred years, does it mean that you have stopped death? Then what is the benefit? You are eternal. Na jāyate na mriyate vā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You are eternal, but why you are dying? What the scientists have done? Na jāyate na mriyate. Eternal means one who has no birth, no death. But you have birth and death, so where is your scientists' help?
Upendra: The reason the original faith was placed in the scientists was because radio, airplanes, tape recorders have been manufactured, and people are impressed by these originally.
Prabhupāda: So what is the benefit? Without radio, people were dying, or with radio they are not living?
Upendra: They say they are living more comfortably.
Prabhupāda: Nonsense comfortably... They have changed the season? Is it comfortable? We have to take this cooling machine. What is the practical benefit? You can say that it is comfortable. That's all right. But that does not mean that you have moved the uncomfortable situation. You are struggling against. That much you can take credit. Real benefit is not there. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Real unhappiness is this, that you are: "Why I am struggling? I don't want death." Actually why I am taking massage and so on, so on? So that I may not die. So where is the scientists' guarantee, "No, you'll not die"? Has he any...? You'll struggle only. That's all. The scientists cannot guarantee, "No, you'll not die." That is real guarantee. "You'll die comfortably." Hm? Die comfortably? Now there is no appetite. Where is the scientist, assuring, "Take"? What actual benefit they have done? They are giving some... Nothing they have given. It is simply bluff. Things without which we could do, such things are there. There were no motorcars. There was horse carriage and bullock carriage. Things were going on. Not that without this horseless motorcar society would have been vanquished. No. There are other alternatives.
| Page Title: | No death (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 24 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=67, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 67 |