Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They all take that this is some kind of a materialistic business, selling books and collecting money, and we purchase a beautiful temple...
Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that we are not material; it is all spiritual. That they do not know. Where is material? If everything is prepared and everything, there is Kṛṣṇa, then where is material? When it is misused, other than Kṛṣṇa, then it is material. Now, just like the university department and the criminal department. Where is the difference superficially? That's a building; that's a building. There are officer; there are officer. There are rooms; there are rooms. Why it is called criminal, prison house?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The activities inside.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is the activity which concerns. In the university there is only activity of education, learning. And here, all the criminals are violating the laws, they are put together. But superficially they look the same room, same food, same office, same typewriter. So it is the question of understanding why it is called criminal department and why it is called university. So as soon as it is university department, that is good. The same building, the same dictaphone, the same typewriter, same table, same chair, when they are used for Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual. The same money, everything, it looks like that. Therefore they cannot understand. The nirviśeṣavādī and the śūnyavādī, they: "Spiritual means these things should be zero." They say it should be zero. "No table, no chair, no house, no, no, no, no..." But that is (laughs) ignorance. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. The things which are usable by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if we give up them, prapañcikā, as material, that is foolishness. That they do not know. They have yet to learn. It is Rūpa Gosvāmī's injunction. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ, mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ. Parityāga means giving up: "Oh, it is material." So we are not such fools, śūnyavādī and nirviśeṣavādī. We are not such fools. Arjuna, he thought that not killing is better than killing, but Kṛṣṇa convinced him, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Therefore he, after reading Bhagavad-gītā, he took it, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Generally people understand not killing is better than killing. But Kṛṣṇa explained to Arjuna, "No, if there is My desire, then killing is better than not killing." And that is knowledge. Therefore we have to carry out simply Kṛṣṇa's order or His representative's order. Then it is all good. Either killing or not killing, it doesn't matter because it is coming directly from the Supreme. And that is spiritual. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa induced Arjuna to kill? He was presenting as very good man, that "I shall not kill." And that's.... Actually that is good. Even if you enemy excuse him, that is very good idea. But if it is not desired by Kṛṣṇa, then it is bad. So our principle is: We have to act according to the desire of Kṛṣṇa. Then it is good; otherwise bad. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So in spite of advancement of knowledge, because they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore they are all duṣkṛtinaḥ, all sinful men. That is the test. So it is very difficult to understand this philosophy, but this is the fact. We are not going to be followers of zero-vādīs or impersonal-vādīs. We remain completely in the varieties, but these varieties are usable only for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. You cannot stop the varieties. You have to change the quality of the varieties. Just like we are eating. It is not possible to stop eating. Why shall I stop eating? But the quality is changed. It is prasādam.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like we're getting some money for our books.
Prabhupāda: The quality's changed.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They take that spiritual life is negation of anything that they're doing now, no more money, no more anything.
Prabhupāda: For our personal comfort, we, our students are lying on the floor. They are not using the money for purchasing nice furniture. No personal comfort. But if you say that "You are purchasing big, big car," yes, for going quickly to serve Kṛṣṇa. Our service is main point. If I can go and serve Kṛṣṇa within a minute, why shall I wait for one hour? So we take all advantages. After all, it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They say that "We have manufactured." That's all.... But we say that Kṛṣṇa has manufactured. So they.... This philosophy, it is little difficult to understand by the dull men, that nothing is without Kṛṣṇa. Everything.... Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Sarvam, when we say sarvam, how we can exclude this and that? Everything is in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, sarvam. Sarvam means everything. So how can you discriminate, "This is material; this is spiritual"? The discrimination is that when it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is material, and when it is used for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. That is the explanation of sarvam. Just like a thief has stolen my money. The money will be utilized. He'll spend it. I am spending, and he is.... Then why he's criminal. If you plea.... If you present this plea that "Money's for spending, so either you spend or I spend...," but that is not the idea, that the money.... My money means the money should be spent for my purpose, and because you have taken the money and spending for your purpose, therefore you are criminal. That is the distinction between material and spiritual. Money, or everything, belongs to Kṛṣṇa. When it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa, this is spiritual, and when it is not utilized for Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that "Yes, I have taken your money, so you are also spending. I am also spending. So why do you call me a criminal?" The answer will be: "Yes, you are not spending for me. You are spending for you. Therefore you are criminal." Is it very difficult to understand?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That last argument again? You're taking money?
Prabhupāda: The money belongs to Kṛṣṇa.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So if you spend it for Kṛṣṇa, then it is spiritual.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.