Prabhupāda: Expansion is direct, and incarnation is indirect. When expansion of expansion is accepted, that is called kalā, incarnation, avatāra, kalā. So Advaita is not direct. The example is given in Brahma-saṁhitā. Just like you get one candle kindled from the first candle, another from the second, another from the third. So similarly, either expansion or incarnation, they are all candles. The original candle is Kṛṣṇa. It is not that expansion of expansion is less powerful. The candle power is the same either origin or expansion or expansion of the expansion. It is not that Nityānanda is less powerful than Caitanya, or Advaita is less powerful than... No. Any incarnation or expansion has the same potency, Viṣṇu-tattva. The manifestation of potency is different. Just like Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Lord Rāma is also the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But one is original. Kṛṣṇa is original, and Rāma is an expansion. Why? Because Kṛṣṇa exhibited the qualities of God fully. Rāma exhibited qualities of God partially. Take for example, Rāma was manifesting Himself as an ideal king. He was not manifesting Himself as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore as ideal king He was limiting Himself with the moral principles of this world. And Kṛṣṇa, being the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He exhibited that He's above any principle of the material world. He's free to act any way He likes. Otherwise what is the meaning... Means full-fledged manifestation of God. Lord Rāma, He married only one, Sītā. And when Sītā was kidnapped by Rāvaṇa, He never married again. Or when Sītā was sent to the forest for public opinion, He never married again. He remained a sticked to, stuck to only one wife because He was setting example, moral principle, to the world. Kṛṣṇa married 16,108. Not religious.
Morality (Conversations)
Expressions researched:
"moral"
|"moralism"
|"moralist"
|"moralistic"
|"moralists"
|"morality"
|"morally"
|"morals"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Now for our disciples, we don't give anything cheap. Our first condition is character, moral character. You see? So unless one is accepting moral character, we don't initiate, don't allow him in this institution. And this Maharishi was, "Oh, you do whatever you like. You simply pay me thirty-five dollars and I'll give you some mantra." You see. So people wanted to be cheated, and so many cheaters come. They do not wish to undergo some disciplinary action, you see? Anything. They have got money. They think that "I shall pay," and immediately he'll get the money.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Interviewer: And do they raise questions or is it a formalized ritual?
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all we pray to God to help us in the, our, I mean to say, preaching or chanting process. Then we begin chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma, conjoinedly, congregationally. And it immediately transfers the atmosphere to a spiritual feeling, and if you sometimes attend our class, you can see practically how the boys and girls, they become ecstatic and chant and dance. So after chanting and dancing for a few minutes, say, fifteen to twenty minutes, then we speak something from Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about theology and philosophy, ethics, morality. Then again we chant and pray to God and then close our class.
Gargamuni: Swamiji? Didn't Karṇa request Arjuna not to fight when he was lifting the chariot? Didn't Karṇa request Arjuna not to kill him?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Request. But Kṛṣṇa said, "No. You kill him. I say." Arjuna said, "That's all right. (laughter) When You order me, 'Fight,' I don't care for any morality or discipline. Your order is 'Fight.' "
Devotee: Can you chant for us loudly? Can you chant from the Bhāgavata?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll chant. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Oh, thank you very much. All should be offered there, Jagannātha. The etiquette is nice. Everything should be offered to the, through the spiritual master. That is the etiquette. No direct. (Prabhupāda chants the second chapter of First Canto.) One chapter. Just play it. (break) ...have the sound only. (Laughs) The explanation... I shall give you little explanation.
Prabhupāda: My real business is spiritual advancement of life." Everything will be clear if you simply execute devotional service of Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudeve bhagavati. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ viṣvaksena kathāsu yaḥ (SB 1.2.8). Again, (indistinct) one may execute very nicely his prescribed duties according to his religion, very good boy, but if he does not develop to hear about Kṛṣṇa, or God, this propensity... Just like you are sitting here to hear about Bhāgavata. Why? This is very nice symptom. You are developing to hear some things about God, or Kṛṣṇa. These tendencies. The temple, somebody comes to hear. Not all. Because they have no development. Life is wanted. So dharmaḥ svanuṣṭha... You may do your duty very nicely, you may be very moralist or philanthropist or so many they have manufactured. You may become everything. But if you have not that propensity to hear something about God, then all these are śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8), simply laboring, laboring, laboring. That's all.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Yamunā: So he's not authority.
Prabhupāda: No, no, he was not authority in the spiritual sense. He was a politician, moralist, politician. That's all. Worldly man.
Haṁsadūta: How many people will be there?
Guest (1): Swamiji, you were telling something?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I don't find... (break) ...vanaṁ sattvaṁ na durjante, sattva vasanti, tad eva ca durjanas tu pade pade. This is another verse.
Guest (1): (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: So we made some life member. Is there any possibility of getting, enrolling some life member? That...?
Guest (1): Life member means...?
Prabhupāda: Institution. We want some life members. Otherwise how we can conduct this institution? (indistinct) Through telegram? Or reply?
Haṁsadūta: I think it was returned.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So this Canakya Paṇḍita was a great politician and brāhmaṇa. And as brāhmaṇa, he was vastly learned. He has got some moral instruction. They're very valuable, still going on. In India school children are taught. So this Canakya Paṇḍita, although he was prime minister, he maintained his brahminical spirit. He was not accepting any salary, yes, because for brāhmaṇas to accept salary, it is understood that he becomes a dog. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. He can advise, but he cannot accept. So he was living in a cottage, but he was prime minister. So this brahminical culture, the brahminical brain, is the standard of Vedic civilization. Just like Manu-smṛti. Manu-smṛti... You do not know. You cannot trace out the history, when Manu-smṛti was written. But Manu-smṛti is considered so perfect that it is the Hindu law. The Hindus are governed by Manu-smṛti. There was no need of passing daily a new law by the legislative assembly to adjust this social order. You see? The law given by Manu was so perfect that it can be applicable for all the time. This is perfect. Tri-kāla-jñāḥ. The word is there, tri-kāla-jñāḥ, past, present, future.
Śyāmasundara: Today we went to a service, a Christian service, the first one I've been to in years, and in the back of the church we walked in there were eleven old ladies sitting in the pews. And outside I could hear the roar of traffic and people. I began to think how much the Christian church has lost track or lost pull(?) of this ability to be able to guide people, the practical application of moral and spiritual principles, so much so that no one was interested to come in...
Prabhupāda: One priest in Boston, he issued leaflet regretting that these boys, he saw our students. He appreciated that these boys are so much after God and they're our boys. We could not give them. Actually the same boy was, one year or two years ago, he was not going to church, was not interested in God consciousness, but now this same boy is mad after God. And he's twenty-four hours in God consciousness. They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty-four hours. How they have become so...
Śyāmasundara: The other day we were discussing Socrates. And Socrates' method was to bring the self under control by inspecting oneself, "Know thyself," and thereby be able, lead a moral life with self-respect and self-control. But Prabhupāda was saying that this is not an ordinary thing. Not many men can achieve this rational control. So by simply cultivating spirit, nourishing spiritual life, any man can control his senses.
Prabhupāda: Just like, somebody, there is a child, a child is active, but his frivolous activities, or mischievous, have to stop when he's active in taking education. You see. The same child, his energy for becoming active is transferred for taking education. He's no more acting mischievously breaking this, doing this, doing that. The activity is there. Now that is purified. Similarly, spiritual life means the spiritual activity, that is purified activity. These boys, they have given up drinking, meat-eating. That does not mean they stop eating. They're eating better things. Therefore they have given up the nonsense eating. So that is spiritual life. Spiritual life means activity purified.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, I mean to say, if you don't follow the Christian principles, how you can claim yourself to become a Christian and how you can ask Jesus Christ to take responsibility for you? These are misleading, therefore people are coming disgusted. Otherwise Christian religion is all right. It teaches love of Godhead, teaches to become moral, it teaches to love people, that's nice. These are good principles.
Viṣala: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bible it says, "Thou shalt not kill", and the Christians say, "Yes, thou shalt not kill but you can kill animals." (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Where it is written that thou shalt not kill animals? "Thou shalt not kill." "Thou shalt not kill," means you shall not kill anything. (break)
Devotee: ...because Jesus ate fish. (laughter)
Devotee (6): He said, "The fish can say, 'Its not what goes in your mouth, its what comes out of your mouth that's important.' "
Devotee: Because Jesus ate fish.
Prabhupāda: Jesus said?
Devotee (6): He said that the... (break)
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) allowed.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Śyāmasundara: It's salt and pepper.
Prabhupāda: No, no. One has to learn how Kṛṣṇa is always God in any circumstance. And if he can understand this philosophy, then Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā he becomes immediately liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ ye jānāti tattvataḥ. "My activities, My birth, they are all transcendental. One who understands in truth," tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), "after leaving this body, he no more comes to this material." That means we can be liberated simply by understanding His activities. All the qualities are described in the Nectar of Devotion. He has got sixty-four qualities. Unlimited qualities, but for our understanding, Rūpa Gosvāmī only discussed sixty-four. Just see, that lady was speaking that she speaks to thousands and thousands of people. How ignorant she is about God. She was inquiring, "Kṛṣṇa is not..." That means she cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. And she is leader, thousands of people she is speaking. What is the use of her speaking if she has no clear idea? This is going on. Useless speaking. In India also, so many fools, they are accepted as very perfect. Just like Gandhi, take Gandhi. Where was Gandhi? In spiritual consciousness, he is nothing. Nothing, no value. But if we say in the public, they will be angry, "Oh!" But actually there is no value, no spiritual value. He is known all over the world as a great spiritualist. He was a moralist, that's all. That is not a qualification for understanding God.
Prabhupāda: On this theory, all their philosophy is going on. So if they give credit that Indians were so high scholars and philosophers, then the whole theory is spoiled. Because brain is developing, and the background of brain was monkey. So how such philosophical highly moral scholarly work can be done? And this is going on. If Bhāgavata is accepted as we accept that five thousand years ago it was written, then their whole civilization becomes topsy-turvy.
Dr. Kapoor: About the Bhāgavata also he says that there is the mention of Buddha in Bhāgavata and many descendants of Buddha who lived...
Prabhupāda: The Buddhists, they don't accept that verse. Kīkaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati, buddho nāmnāñjana-sutaḥ. They do not accept. About Buddha, in Hindu literature, Vedic literature, there is mention, bhaviśyati, feature(?). That is insult to them. Therefore, they do not accept this verse. Neither we say Buddha is incarnation of God. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra. They do not accept this. They think it is insult.
Frenchman: In society, the consumer society, (indistinct) miseries, what is the message you can bring people even in this day?
Prabhupāda: Yes. By accepting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement they will be moralists, they will be religionists, they will be first-class (indistinct), first-class politician, everything perfect by accepting Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Frenchman: We have heard from not such a great master who has (indistinct) ...highest spiritual principles, (indistinct) ...like socialism and spiritual communism, he'd like to know exactly what this means.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual communism means that these so-called communists they are concerned with the limited thing. Just like the communists in Russia or China, they are thinking of their country main only. They are not thinking of others. Or they're thinking only they human beings, not of the animals. But our spiritual comm... Communist means that we take care, not only of the human being, but of the animals also. We don't think that the human being is only our own community. We think every living is within the community, center being God. Just like spiritual our communism means... Just like I'm living in this house. I shall have to take care even for one lizard, that is also living entity. I shall have to take care of one rat, one mouse, even one snake, if he's living in one's house. That is spiritual community.
Prabhupāda: There is no religion. Strictly speaking, simply some dogmas, maybe some moral principles. That is another thing. But moral principles we have to transcend. We don't say that don't follow moral principles. But even they do not follow the moral principles. Then what is the..., where is the religion? Just like Christian religion, it is said that "Thou shalt not kill." But everyone is killing. So nobody's... Factually, religion means conception of God and the words of God, all over the world. Just like good citizen means he knows what is the government and what is the law of government. He is following. Similarly, religious person means he must know what is God and what are the words of God. So our principle is that we follow the words of God. God says, God says that "Always think of Me." So who can object to this, if he's seriously about religion? Why one should not think of God always? God says that "You think of Me." But if you have no idea of God, how you'll think of? We have God, Kṛṣṇa, here. We can think of His form. We are busy in His service.
Prabhupāda: Why civilized? Do you think it is especially civilized?
Devotee: Well, a lot more than America anyway. By comparison it seems civilized, in the sense that there is not so much violence. There's not... People are honest, upright, moral, a little more.
Prabhupāda: In America general life is becoming wretched.
Devotee: Wretched. Police don't even carry guns here.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Devotee: Policemen don't even carry guns in Britain, but in America every policeman's got at least one gun.
Prabhupāda: The Englishman... I've studied Englishman. They consider America is still uncivilized. They say like that.
Prabhupāda: Spinning wheel, they were spinning thread. Simple life and morality. No drinking of (indistinct) or tea, no smoking, and raghupati rāghava rāja rāma. This was his program. Hindu-Muslim unity. But all his programs failed. He died very dissatisfied.
Jayatīrtha: Why did they fail?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: Why was it the programs failed?
Prabhupāda: Because his disciples, they had a different program. They wanted politics like the Western countries. They did not want... Just like all the politicians, they do not want anything good for the people. They simply want to make some money for their (indistinct), that's all. This is the whole policy of the modern diplomats and politicians. They do not know, you go to hell. Other way, in your country you see so many young men are frustrated. So what government is doing actually? They are not serious. They have made this policy that catch them and send them, keep the Vietnam going on and kill them, all these useless boys should be killed. That is their policy. That is the Western policy: if you don't like anyone, shoot.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So due to a lack of morals, they cannot see the real side.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, they are seeing only the caves. Just like they are going to the moon. They are going to the desert of the moon and they are concluding the moon is a desert. That's all. The other side is prohibited.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they cannot go.
Prabhupāda: They cannot go because according to Vedic description, moon is a planet for demigods. So they have got better brain. So they saw that "These rascals are coming here. All right, let them go to desert side." They have got their machine also. If they have got better brain, they can divert you. Why not think in that way? Their theory is that all other planets there is no life. Only this planet is favored by God, there is life. We say even in the sun planet there is life. (break) (indistinct) Here is your transport(?). We are trying to send back to home, back to Godhead. This is real transport.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Scholar: At least we can start from living moral life.
Prabhupāda: But they're not living, they're not living. They are doing all kinds of sinful activities, they are drinking, they are having illicit sex, they're gambling, they're killing animals. Very sin... Everyone is engaged in these things. Maybe few percentage people are not engaged. But the throughout the whole world they're implicated in these four kinds of sinful activities. How you can expect that he's going to have next body very nice? No. That is not possible if you believe in karma. According to karma... Just like here in the human society there is law that if you kill a man, you should be also killed. Similarly, in God's laws so the same law is there. Māṁ sa, māṁsa. If I eat an animal then he will have the chance to eat me next life. This is karma. Who is caring for all these things? Who is caring? Nobody's caring. They're slaughtering animals like anything.
Prabhupāda: Oh, it was nice. Very nice students were coming out.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The moral standard was very good?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We respected our professors like our fathers. The relationship between the student and the professors was very good. I had one Scottish professor, Dr. W.S. Urquhart. He was my nice friend. He was professor of philosophy, psychology. Later on he became vice-chancellor.
Brahmānanda:Calcutta?
Prabhupāda: Calcutta, yes. A very perfect gentleman. Kind-hearted. Sometimes we joked. We were taking this, what is called, peanuts. So the professor was passing. So some of our friends remarked: (Bengali) So he thought that professor did not know Bengali. So immediately he turned: (Bengali). So we became very much ashamed. Yes. So all the professors from foreign countries, they were instructed to learn Bengali language, local language. That was the system.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And that, that definition of differentiation is that they say religion deals with the value of life, the moral and ethics... And on the other hand...
Prabhupāda: Religion, religion is the source of moral and ethics. Because religion means to come to the perfectional point. So as soon as there is perfection, moral and ethics are already there. So called moral ethics, that is artificial. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. If one is not a devotee of the Lord, his morality has no value. That is artificial. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Mahad-guṇāḥ, high qualities, moral, ethics, they are high qualities. So Bhāgavata says that unless one is devotee of God, he cannot have high qualities. That is artificial.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So without God consciousness, there's no question of morality.
Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of morality. First of all, define what is morality? What is the definition of morality?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The value of life in its proper perspective.
Prabhupāda: Value of life, everyone has got his own value of life. a drunkard, he has got his value of life. That "When I drink, it is value." Is that morality?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the morality of the drunkard.
Prabhupāda: Therefore everyone has got his own morality. Then what is the standard morality?
Brahmānanda: Yeah. There must be a standard for everyone.
Prabhupāda: That is Ramakrishna mission's morality: yata mata tata patha. Whatever you think, that is your way. Yata mata tata patha.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yata mata tata patha.
Prabhupāda: As many ways you think, that's all right.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is how they define morality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you make your own morality.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I want to, I want to follow my own aim and desire, my own morality. They say like that.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why don't you do that in case of your relationship to the state. Suppose the state says: "You must drive to the right." Why don't you drive on the left? Why do you obey the state laws? What does he say? You do whatever you like.
Brahmānanda: That means there's someone more powerful than they are.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: They have to obey.
Prabhupāda: Immediately he'll be kicked on his face. "You rascal, why you driving. Kick on your..."(laughter) and what he'll say at that time? Can he say that: "Yes, it is my law. I'll do this." Can he say like this?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He cannot say like this.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I read an article by Śrīla Prabhupāda about sometime in 1935 or 40, early in the Back to Godhead magazine. In the earlier copies, the Prabhupāda writes about the standard of morality in one article.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There everything is very nicely explained.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I wrote one time, standard of morality. (pause) We have got very simple formulas from the statement of śāstras. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Hari is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, abhakta, nondevotee, a person who is not a devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, kuto mahad-guṇāḥ, where is his high qualities? No, no high qualities. In the Bhagavad-gītā also: na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). So we see whether he has surrendered to God. Otherwise, he's a mūḍhaḥ, rascal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The first one is from Bhāgavatam, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: That is from Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: That is warned by Śaṅkarācārya. Vivekananda lamented at the end of his life, that "I have simply wasted my life." He admitted, "I have not given anything." Bālakānām. He was after this body, and he was recorded, government record, as political sannyāsī. Yes. He had political purpose, but was acting as a sannyāsī. Just like Gandhi, "Saintly statesman." He is recorded, "Saintly statesman." He's a statesman, politician, but he was introducing some morality, non-violence, like that. Actually, his philosophy failed. He wanted Hindu-Muslim unity, but it was divided. The Muslim and Hindu divided. He wanted non-violence. He died out of violence. Therefore all his philosophy failed. And Indian independence was achieved not by Gandhi's non-violence method but (by) Subhas Bose's violence method. And he wanted to explain nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. Just see, another foolishness. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and he was screwing some meaning to prove his nonviolence.
Guest (2): Another one, Guru Maharajaji, they are taking our picture and selling all Christian books as religion education, moral education. And this is the tools. These people little cunning, eh? When it comes to my knowledge, I was almost...
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (2): Hare Kṛṣṇa. And they are selling all these Christian books in the schools and all over.
Prabhupāda: Wherever. This is our advertisement.
Guest (2): Advertisement...
Prabhupāda: Demonstration of world religion.
Guest (2): World religion.
Prabhupāda: This is world religion.
Guest (2): But what inside... (showing pamphlet or something) They say religion and moral education books, and all this... So actually, they should take our permission also. So this will sell our books. Our organization, not theirs, controlling the people.
Prabhupāda: No, they are taking.
Prabhupāda: He followed the moral principles of this material world. He thought... He expressed that "Duryodhana...," he knew that "Either be on Arjuna's side or not, Arjuna will be victorious. Because Kṛṣṇa is there. So let us fight with..." Because kṣatriya, this fighting is sporting. You see. That is not any difficult task for them. So he showed these moral principles, that "These people are maintaining me, Duryodhana... They are maintaining me. I am old man, and they are taking care of me, and they are expect... So when they are in danger, I shall go to his enemy's side? Oh, this is not good." That he saw. And he knew that, "Even if I do not go to this side, he'll be victorious." So he showed these moral principles. "So one is maintaining me and he is in now danger, I go to his enemy's side, that does not look well."
Guest (8): Morally.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then talk of all this moral instruction. If you are killing yourself, then why do you object? Why? (break) ...ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā.
Revatīnandana: Caitanya-caritāmṛta?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: I recognize the Bengali. What's the...?
Prabhupāda: You should teach philosophy by behaving yourself.
Revatīnandana: Very nice. So simple.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...talked with many gentleman, lawyer. That Goldsmith, he was against war, but when I asked him, "Whether you are meat-eaters, killing animals?", "Yes, that is our food." So if the poor animals can become your food, the big nation can say, "The small nation is my food. I can kill them. We can kill them." Everyone can say. And that is happening like, "Might is right."
Prabhupāda: There is one moral instruction by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was a great minister during the time of Mahārāja Candragupta. So he was honorary Prime Minister in the empire. So he has a book of moral instruction. So he says in that moral instruction, who is a learned man. So he gives the description of a learned man, that: mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Mātṛvat. "Just treat all other women except your wife as your mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Loṣṭa means as there are so many pebbles lying on the street, you don't care for it, similarly, others' property, others' money you should treat just like these pebbles lying on the street or the garbage lying on the street. Don't touch it. So mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. And treat all living entities as you want to be treated. If one has got these three qualifications, he is learned man. He does not say, one who has got this BAC, DAC degrees, and so on, so on, so on. No. The result of his education is to be seen by three manifestations: treating all women as mother; treating others' money, property, as garbage, as rubbish in the street; and treating all living entities as you want to be treated yourself. If one has attained these three development of knowledge, he is learned.
Prabhupāda: And it is not moral. Even if you kill animals for maintaining your..., allowing that, there are many other, hundreds and thousands of animals. So if you at all require, people eat also hogs, sometimes, in wartime, they ate dogs also. And there are persons, they regularly eat dogs in Korea. They eat dogs regularly. So even animal killing is necessary for...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, it is...
Prabhupāda: ...for eating, then at least the mother animal should not be killed. That is from moral point of view.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, from moral point of view...
Prabhupāda: So our point of view is that we don't allow killing any animal. Our Kṛṣṇa says: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Kṛṣṇa says vegetable, fruits, milk, grains, all these things should be offered to Me with devotion. And you should take the remnants of the foodstuff. So we take prasādam. And Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me foodstuff prepared from this group." That we do. Accepting that the fruits, they have got life. But fruits are by nature... There are many fruits. It is offered by the tree for eating. The tree's not killed. So we accept this philosophy also that a, one animal, one living entity is meant for being food for another living entity. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. That we also accept, but that does not mean one living entity is the food for another living entity, that does not mean I can kill my mother, my child... That is not, sir.
Prabhupāda: Apart from this consideration, at least this morality should be observed that cows, they're our mother. We should not kill at least mothers for eating the flesh.
Cardinal Danielou: The difficulty for us is not the idea that it is good for us to respect the life of a cow. The difficulty is the metaphysic reason. You know.
Prabhupāda: No, metaphysics, not...
Cardinal Danielou: It is, it is, it is the idea that all life is parcel of the life of God. You know of this is to us, difficult to admit. We can, there is a very great difference between the life of man who is really called to partake the life of God, and the animal life, who is (French)
Yogeśvara: Temporary.
Cardinal Danielou: No. Without, without, impermanent. Life of man is permanent.
Prabhupāda: That, that, that difference is due to development of consciousness. The human body, human body, you get developed consciousness. Just like this tree. It is also a living entity, but it's consciousness is not yet fructified. If you cut the tree, it does not resist. But it resists in a very small degree. That is proved by the scientists. The Sir Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he's also a very great scientist. He has made machine: when you cut the tree, it feels and it is recorded in the machine.
Prabhupāda: But we can ask what is this cosmic manifestation, what is the purpose of this, who created, how it is created. Are they not scientific?
Dr. Inger: Yes. Now this is another problem. Everything of a philosophical kind, they call it science, human sciences, natural sciences, moral sciences. They think that is a fault(?) to satisfy scientific spirit. I think from that point of view, they allow big conferences to be held where a particular theme is taken, different people come. So the organization encourages, stimulates activities proposed, submitted and finally passed in resolutions by different commissions and different countries. And then it's held. And at that particular time, some people come and speak. So they have had... But they haven't... Mostly these meetings have been held and... Very few have been held here, except when they celebrated the tintinary(?) of Aurobindo, last year. Or when they celebrated the centenary of, another centenary of Ramakrishna. Like that. But not always.
Prabhupāda: Not Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: What is that suggestion?
Yogeśvara: The movement suggests that people live a life as perhaps yours is, of purity, and pure thoughts and moral living and even following certain principles of...
Prabhupāda: But these things are there, but they don't say. Suppose a man is killing animals. They don't prohibit him. Then that is immoral life, but if they don't prohibit him, then how he can become moral? (break) ...killing of animals and morality will go together?
Yogeśvara: It's an order that likes very much the ideals of beauty and harmony and morality, but they can't see imposing on anyone these things. I guess their idea is that you can't impose beauty and morality on anyone. You can't insist that anyone stop killing. You can't tell anyone forcibly not to do this or not to do that, that these are things that you have to realize.
Prabhupāda: But is there such rules and regulation or injunction from the society that "You do not kill." Just like Bible there is, "You shall not kill." So they have no such thing.
Ambassador: Probably, as far as moral conduct is concerned, but more than that, how is it possible, you know? For the inner man in the spiritual mind, each individual can conceive his own philosophy, but the external conduct, the, the, what is called...?
Prabhupāda: No, no. External conduct means on religious principle.
Ambassador: This is what I was...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Harāv abhaktasya kuto... I... You can, you can...
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...understand Sanskrit.
Ambassador: It's the Rāma-rājya ideal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Strong government means that, that government should be very, very vigilant that citizens are doing their duty properly. That is the first duty. They should be given all protection. At the same time... Just like the father gives protection to the children, at the same time, very strict that they are morally and disciplinary, they are going, coming out nice. That is father's duty. It is government's duty. If the father thinks, "Let my son go to hell. I don't care. I give them some food. That's all." Is that father's duty? No. Father's duty, to arrange for their food, for their dress, for their shelter, at the same time, to see that they are growing nice, not rascals. That is father's duty. Similarly, government's duty is that. We see from Vedic śāstra government duty is that. Otherwise why there is need of government? Government... Now it is government. But formerly it was the king. The king must be representative of God.
Umāpati: That is the mystical process of this movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So that their heart may be cleansed and they can understand. And if I sit down in a solitary place, for my benefit, that may be his benefit, but it is not very high class engagement. He must sacrifice for others. Pararthe prag utsri, utsri(?). That is the Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's moral instruction, that "Everyone should sacrifice for the Supreme." Caitanya Mahāprabhu is God Himself. He comes down to preach, to become sannyāsī, and to take so much trouble all over India and everywhere, and giving instruction and sending men, "Go, go, go, go." What? Why you...? He's perfect. Why He's coming? He doesn't require. No. For the benefit of others, we must follow the footsteps of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. (aside:) That's all right. Why water is here?
Karandhara: I don't know, Prabhupāda. It's a low spot.
Prabhupāda: A Vaiṣṇava's first qualification that he's unhappy by seeing others unhappy. Vaiṣṇava cannot be unhappy. That Prahlāda Mahārāja says, that "I have no problem. I am unhappy seeing these people who are simply engaged in false activities and they do not care for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore I am unhappy." This is Vaiṣṇava's qualification. Not that "I am saved. That's all right."
Prabhupāda: Confusion is not... Chaotic condition, confusion is not proper stage. That is a state of suffering. That is the position at the present moment. Otherwise, why they are fighting, nation to nation, man to man, group to group, community to community, diplomat to dip...? They're simply fighting like cats and dogs. This is not perfect society. Simply ca... They can say dogs. They can simply make barking, "Whowf! Whowf! Whowf! Whowf!" That is not perfect society. Human society should be sober. That is Vedic civilization.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But one should follow the standard morality. When that standard set is lacking or it fails to understand, then people try to speculate their own thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Nobody's following any standard. Just like these Western people, mostly Christians. It is clearly stated in the Bible, "Thou shalt not kill." They're simply killing. Their only business is killing.
Bali Mardana: And divorce.
Prabhupāda: And divorce.
Bali Mardana: It says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
Prabhupāda: So these rascals, how do they claim Christian? Eh? What do you think? They're not even category, in the category of dogs, cats, and they're claiming that "We are follower of Lord Jesus Christ."
Prabhupāda: Any law, as soon as you say, "law", you must have to accept a law-maker. Any law. Otherwise, there is no... Just like the law is: "When there is red light, you must stop." You don't see any person, but if you don't stop, then you go to a person who will prosecute you. You don't see the person here, but if you violate, you'll have to go to a person who will fine you, "You rascal, you have done this." So ultimately a puruṣa, person.
Karandhara: (break) ...just for atheists who want to be a little pious, but they're not...
Prabhupāda: Yes, little, little moralist.
Karandhara: Yes. Moral atheists.
Prajāpati: In the West, there's what's known as Protestant Ethic, which means you work hard like a dog and a cat.
Karandhara: And enjoy, enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is done by the pigs. Whole day, finding out "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon as he eats some stool, gets some fat, "Where is sex? Never mind, mother, sister, or daughter. Come on, sex." This is pig life, pig civilization. It is not human civilization. This kind of behavior is found amongst the pigs, amongst the dogs. Do you think we have to create a human society like the pigs' society? At the present moment, they're eating anything and everything like pigs, and they're having sex with anyone, never mind. So it is a pig society. There is no discrimination.
Prajāpati: But in our literature we find Kṛṣṇa has some transcendental pastimes of anger, but that He does not, it is man's own reaction activities, that bring upon destruction. How are these two...?
Prabhupāda: No. All the qualities that we find within this material world, all of them must have come from God. If there is wrath within this material world, it must have come from God because God is the origin of everything. That is the Vedānta-sūtra. Brahman, Absolute Truth, means the source of everything. Whatever we have got experience within this material world, everything is there in God. That is perfection of God. You cannot say, "This thing is not in God." So aiśvaryasya samagrasya. Everything is there. Just like Kṛṣṇa stealing as a child. But apparently sometimes He does something which is not very moral. So this immorality, the so-called immorality, it is there also. That is the full conception of God. He's not lacking in anything. Under the circumstances, God is in wrath, that is correct. But that is not His only characteristic. He has got mercifulness also. Everything is there. That is God. Therefore as theologician, you should understand the correct conception of God. They have no complete conception of God. Now, God is described in the dictionary as the Supreme Being. Is it not?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Everyone agrees on that.
Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. Luxury leads to poverty. (break) ...a living man, but if you are actually interested, why don't you do it, organized way. Sentiment, it is good, but if you do not understand the science, sentiment may be for the time being. Sentiment is sentiment. That will not act. They are admitting sinful activities?
Prajāpati: Yes, they are admitting that... They are an abyss of moral decay.
Prabhupāda: So let them know what are the sinful activities. These are the sinful activities. Close all the slaughterhouses. Close all these illicit sex brothel houses, and close the liquor houses.
Prajāpati: The gambling also.
Prabhupāda: Certainly. Then their business will be finished. Then they will say, "Where we stand? It is all finished." Now you stand on a different platform.
Prabhupāda: What he has said, Karandhara?
Karandhara: He doesn't say specifically. He just said that generally the country is degraded and people have become apathetic, and the morals have reduced. He was referring to things like Watergate, political scandals, and the youth degradation.
Prabhupāda: But why they have degraded? That is to be understood... Not known to them.
Karandhara: Yes. Actually they don't have the scientific analysis. They just have some vague understanding that things are falling apart.
Prabhupāda: Here are the causes. Sinful life. (break)
Prajāpati: ...the affair, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Oh, then the country could be...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I am already in charge, but who is following me? (laughter) That is the difficulty. (break) ...one who is to be followed, that is called ācārya. So who is following the ācārya? Nobody is following. Ācārya is there, but nobody is following ācārya. Ācaraṇa. Ācaraṇa means behavior. Ācārya. "This man is ideal. One should follow him." That is called ācārya. (break) ...to allow us one day to have chanting and speaking something about God consciousness.
Prabhupāda: So see him. You and you go and arrange, and explain to him that "This is our movement, simply how to make people pure, moral, sinless, and advanced in God consciousness." Just take this opportunity. "You come and see how God consciousness we are executing, and then arrange a meeting in the Senate. And try to understand, 'It is simply sentiment or how it will help me?' " (break) ...so much money, and still they are crying, "Degradation." So they should come to their senses. This kind of understanding will not help. They must understand scientifically.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everybody is saying, not only politicians, but everybody is saying that we are degrading. Moral standard is degrading. But nobody acts. That is the difficulty.
Prabhupāda: So it is our duty to help them. Those who are... Just like here is an opportunity. Go, see them immediately, the person. It is our duty. (break) Sometime I can go and see. Who is the senator, local?
Karandhara: I'm not sure.
Prabhupāda: Find out and arrange some meeting. I shall go personally.
Prabhupāda: Misrepresented. They will think that it is ordinary, just like young boy, young girls, they mix together.
Guest (1): And that rāsa-līlā is also not taken in that moral sense. It is more of a sex exploitation. That is how they...
Prabhupāda: No. Why one should go to the rāsa-līlā? It is in the Tenth Canto. And in the thirty-fifth chapter. So what is the purpose?
Guest (1): No. That is being misrepresented. That has also been taken as an enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): It has been taken more as sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). So Karandhara Prabhu, this time is nice.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Same thing here even. Majority wants to be godless. So government is following that. Therefore they are against our movement. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya. Namaskāra. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now the vox populi. Majority wants to become drunkards. "All right, it is legalized." Majority wants prostitute hunters. "All right. It is legalized." This is government. No consideration of morality or religion. Majority wants, it must be given.
Dr. Patel: No, but, I mean, it is all... It must fall. There is no culture. This is a total degeneration of the humanity at large.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They must suffer. And they're suffering. Still, they're blind.
Dr. Patel: So-called followers of Christianity actually killing Christ every day.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why do you take Christianity? Everyone. Everyone.
Prabhupāda: Oh, all right. (break) ...pūjyante dhanya yatra sucancitam (?), "Where a rascal is not worshiped, where foodstuff is kept very carefully," and dam-patyoḥ kalaha nāsti, "and when there is no fight between husband and wife, or family-wise," tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ, "there goddess of fortune is always present." Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the principle given by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, the greatest politician and moralist. Mūrkha means who is not pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. He's a mūrkha or mūḍha. Not that ABCD learned. ABCD learned is no use. And another śloka, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says who is learned man. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu: "One who does not think of any illicit sex life." Mātṛvat... Every woman-mother. Except his married wife, every woman is mother. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-loṣṭravat "And others' money, just like garbage." Nobody touches. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, and ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu: "And one who sees like himself all other living entities, he's paṇḍita, he's learned." Not by MA, Ph.D. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...yaḥ paśyati. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. (break) ...nihāram iva bhā... It is called nihāra. As long, as soon as the sun becomes strong, immediately, everything finished. Just see. This... What is called fog, or...?
Prabhupāda: That can be used. Everything can be used. Everything can be used. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Therefore we are "lessoning" people that "Whatever you have done is rotten. Utilize for Kṛṣṇa." That is our purpose, not that we enjoy these.
Indian man (1): So for improving our morality.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that "Everything, what you have done, it is all right. Utilize for saṅkīrtana yajña." Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa... Rūpa Gosvāmī has recommended that
- anasaktyasya viṣayān
- yathārham upayuñjataḥ
- nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandhe
- yukta-vairāgyam ucyate
We have no attachment for these things. Just like in America, I ride on Rolls Royce car. That does not mean because in India there is no Rolls Royce car, therefore I shall not walk. We are not attached to all these things. But if it is available, we utilize it for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. That's all. (break) ...the best use of a bad bargain. When there is a bad bargain, so intelligent man makes the best use. "All right, how it can be used for the best purpose?" That is wanted. (break) Newspaper men, they call me "jet plane parivrājakācārya." (break) But our process is for yajña.
Prabhupāda: I do not wish to speak of any particular government. But generally, everywhere the government is not very good. Even in America, the president is not liked.
Guest (5): Swamiji, India is supposed to be a land of spirituality.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (5): How is it that there is so much moral degradation in our country?
Prabhupāda: Because you did not lead them, you did not teach them spiritual books. You allowed them to read Communist books.
Guest (5): Is it the failure of our spiritual leaders?
Prabhupāda: What is a spiritual leader? First of all we have to think..., if the businessman is not spiritual leader.
Guest (6): So you mean the lack of spiritual leadership has driven us to this state of affairs?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because there have been so many. Just like Bhagavad-gītā, it is standard book. The so-called spiritual leaders, they give different interpretation. Why different interpretation? One interpretation is there. Anyone can understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is plain thing, Kṛṣṇa says that "You always think of Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "You become My devotee, you just worship Me, offer your obeisance." And Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa personally." What right he has got to say like that? Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava. Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: Convention means they are partially good for the time being, that's all. They are not eternally... Just like in the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." (chuckles) But this is not, does not come within the category of eternal religion. People were so corrupted that they were forbidden, "No, don't do this." "Thou shalt not covet," a little moral instruction. That also, they could not follow. There is no religion. And little God consciousness, "There is God, kingdom of God," little idea for the persons who could understand. Otherwise, do you think that if somebody says, "Thou shalt not kill," is that any religious principle? It is ordinary thing. Where is the question of God?
Pañcadraviḍa: These things, they are also in (sic:) Manu-saṁhitā?
Prabhupāda: That is for... Manu-saṁhitā forbids completely. Manu-saṁhitā is not religion. It is moral principles for conducting society. Religion is how to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is religion. That is natural. (break) "...shalt not kill," this is expectation. "Someday, in future, one may become religious." That's all. Because by killing, killing, they are going downer, down. So if they stop killing, some day they will be able to understand what is religion. Sukṛti. Because, without being freed from all sinful activities, nobody can understand what is God. Therefore about God, in India they can understand very easily. In other countries they cannot. Very few because always engaged in sinful activities, all forbidden sinful activities. Just like you said that gambling has been introduced in religion. Killing has been introduced in religion.
Prabhupāda: I think the fighting is going on still.
O'Grady: Very much so. Very badly, very bad now, very bad. What do you do about that? And that's a serious question. Is it morally correct to be sitting here, for me to be sitting here...
Prabhupāda: You see, so long people will remain under the bodily concept of life, that "I am this body," "I am Irish," "I am English," "I am American," "I am Italian," so long this misconception will go on, fight will go on. You see? Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātu... There is a verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Just like you cannot stop fighting between the dogs and cats. Why there is fighting? Because the dog is thinking, "I am dog." The cat is thinking, "I am cat." Similarly, if I think as Irishman, "I am Englishman," it is the same thing. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," so if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," I am no better than the dog. So as we cannot stop the fighting between dogs, similarly, so long people will remain in bodily concept of life, the fighting cannot be stopped.
Prabhupāda: And another has that "education has collapsed."
Dhanañjaya: They have lost all sense of moral values.
Prabhupāda: Animals. The whole material civilization is based on animalism. Therefore now they are coming as naked animals. The basic principle of the civilization is animalism. Now... It was covered by the progress of time. Now they are coming to be naked animals, that's all.
Yogeśvara: So this is another problem for Bhagavān's book.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That... You have created this animal civilization. Now they are coming out as naked animals. This is the result. Now you have to reform them. That reformation is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have to make an example, what is actually human life. Then others will see. You cannot stop them. But some of them, those who are intelligent, they will see, "Yes, here is life." As they are coming to nakedness, they will come to this, our mode of life. So you have to become an ideal society. You live locally, and be self-sufficient. They will see that it is possible to live locally without movement, and still highly cultured men, self-sufficient. That is required.
Prabhupāda: So such an important... And besides that, from moral point of view, you are drinking the milk of cow, and after that you are sending to the slaughterhouse. Do you like to send your mother to the slaughterhouse? And the bull is giving you, producing your food. Nowadays they have invented tractor or engaging sometimes horse. But in India still, the bulls are engaged for tilling the ground, the field, and produces. So from moral sense, the bull is producing your food and the cow is giving milk to you; therefore father and mother. Just like father produces food for the children and the mother gives the milk. So if the human society has not this simple brain of understanding, then where is brain?
C. Hennis: Of course, when you speak of the distinctions that are made between pious activities and sinful activities...
Prabhupāda: They have no such distinction. There is no such distinction.
Nitāi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone knows. What is this? (laughing) Even from moral point of view, a disciple is just like daughter. And this man was having sex life with his disciple. And he's a yogi. Just see. Even he has no moral sense, apart from spiritual knowledge. According to human social constitution, one should not have sex life with daughter, with mother and sister. And what is this? If one has sex life with daughter, then where is the moral life?
M. Roost: I was always interested by Buddhist Zen. I think it's a way, very strong, with a technique which is a little different as yoga. For example, one practical way is les arts martiaux, like aikido, judo, and kendo. I think the approach is very, very interesting, but very difficult to understand.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
M. Roost: It's to go through death by stop one from this sentence that people is afraid of death and is a fast program how to transcend human life, how to transcend la mort.
Guru-gaurāṅga: To transcend death.
M. Roost: How to transcend death. And technically, by practice, kumbha (?), the kumbha, fighting, two persons are fighting, master and disciple...
Prabhupāda: (coughing) Water, little.
Prabhupāda: But is that very good intelligence? Suppose you are searching after one million dollars. You are working little by little, little, and if somebody says, "Here is one million dollar. You take it," Why don't you take it? (French)
Yogeśvara: He says it's a moral question. He already has his guru, and his guru has died. He's gone over to the other side, and he can't change gurus.
Prabhupāda: But there is no question of changing guru. If he is actually searching after the truth, then why he is denying the truth when it is delivered? (French)
Yogeśvara: He would have to be sure that it was the actual highest truth.
Dr. Sallaz: The real truth, eternal truth. Because you see...
Prabhupāda: That is... That we are... (French)
Yogeśvara: This is what the conclusion we came to yesterday with that other guest, that he says they have also find truths in China, they have also found truths in other scriptures.
Prabhupāda: So what is that truth? (French) (break) ...is that reality?
Prabhupāda: Well, I... That is the process of India to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Every Indian has got initial propensity, but actually Gandhi did not know anything about spiritual science. He was politician, that's all. That one Bengal governor, he was from Australia, Mr. Keziar (?). So he, I remember. "Gandhi is a politician amongst the saintly person or a saintly person amongst the politicians." This study was made. His moral principle, character, is very good. That is to be taken by the politicians. But so far his spiritual knowledge is concerned, that is nil.
Prof. Regamay: But nonviolence is not well in every case?
Prabhupāda: No, nonviolence... Actually that is the subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā. What do you mean by nonviolence. Because you are not this body. Suppose if I tear away your coat, does it mean that you are killed? So those who are in the bodily concept of life, "I am this body," for them, this kind of fighting or killing is violence. It is violence. But the thing is, there is sometimes necessity. Just like every state maintains the military force, the police force. What is this? The violence department. Required. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8). Suppose you are attacked by some rogue, and if somebody comes and kills him, there is a necessity. It is natural.
Prabhupāda: So this is our program. Let the cows live. We take sufficient milk. We are getting milk, one thousand pounds. One thousand pounds daily in our, one center, New Vrindaban, Virginia. So we are making various preparations from the milk, and they are very happy, and the cows are also happy. So this is one of our programs, to stop killing this important animal. And the flesh-eaters may wait a little until the cow dies. Then he gets the opportunity. Why there should be slaughterhouse maintained? As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy.
Yogeśvara: Isn't the kṣatriya qualities that he is to be trustworthy?
Prabhupāda: No. When there is political game, everyone does everything to gain his victory. In politics, these things are allowed. Just like killing, fighting, kṣatriya's fighting. That killing is allowed. But killing is not allowed generally. Kṛṣṇa has killed so many. If you take from moral point of view, He's sometimes immoral. He has killed His maternal uncle, Kaṁsa, and Śiśupāla, Śiśupāla, his cousin brother. And Balarāma killed Rukma. Once He saved him, and another time, that Aniruddha's marriage, or something like that... Balarāma killed Rukma, the brother of Rukmiṇī. They were family relatives. But there was some misunderstanding in chess playing that other party, Rukma, he was cheating by tricks. The Balarāma became so angry, they killed him. So in politics amongst the kṣatriyas, these things are not uncommon.
Prabhupāda: There was a movement, Moral Rearmament Movement, started from America.
Haṁsadūta: What was the name of it?
Prabhupāda: MRA, MRA, Moral Rearmament Movement. Do you know, anyone of you?
Haṁsadūta: No. Do you, Satsvarūpa? No.
Prabhupāda: So it was going on for some years, then collapsed. The movement was started by some priest or gentleman, and it was supported by President Eisenhower. It was patronized by him. So their principle was that, Christian principle, that "You do whatever you... Simply confess. Simply confess." So that man came to India also with his party, just like I travel. (break) ...substance, no movement will stay. It may go on for some time, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Now, what about our movement? It will stay or it will also go like that?
Dr. Harrap: It's a complete food in itself.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are meat-eaters, they can eat other non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-rakṣya. It does not say, Kṛṣṇa, "elephant-rakṣya." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. So therefore it is recommended, go-rakṣya. It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other non-important animals but don't kill animal, er, cow. And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she is mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: ādau mātā, real mother. Ādau mātā, guru patnī, the wife of guru, spiritual master. Ādau mātā, guru patnī, brāhmaṇī, the wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men in the society.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (3): You mean Swamiji then that all scientific efforts, whatever they are, should be stopped altogether?
Prabhupāda: No, not stopped. Just like you have got ordinary car and you purchase a Rolls-Royce car. The business is the same. It is simply an artistic improvement. In the ordinary car there is much jerking and the Rolls-Royce car there is no jerking. That will not benefit you. After all it is car. You can use it for going here to there, there to here, that's all. Therefore our Vedic civilization, they are not very much eager to manufacture a motor car, they are satisfied with the bullock cart. Because after all you have to go from this place to that place. And there was no need of big, big roads, three thousand miles long for driving the car. You see. The bullock cart was sufficient, here to there, a few miles. But they were interested to cultivate spiritual knowledge. That is Indian civilization. Vyāsadeva was living in a cottage and just see literature. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was prime minister of India and he was living in a cottage, drawing no salary and he has given his politics and moral lesson, so sublime. So here at the present moment, the motor car civilization, he's anxious how to get a Rolls-Royce motor car, that's all. That is his business.
Devotee (1): He said that "You are as good as the all-pervading Supersoul."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He... He pointed out the deficiency, that "You have not described so elaborately about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You have touched only the social, religious, political point of views." That was his deficiency. So a disciple is always in deficiency before his spiritual master. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru more murkha dekhi karila śāśana (CC Adi 7.71). "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." So disciple should be always ready to be chastised. He should not think that he has become perfect. That is perfection. So long he thinks that he is not perfect-he's to be chastised—then he's perfect. And as soon as he thinks that he has become perfect, he's nonsense immediately, nonsense number one. (Break) ...always to be chastised by the spiritual master for perfection. And if he thinks that now he has become perfect, then he's a foolish. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more murkha dekhi. "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one." Was He fool number one? He's God Himself. But that is the position. He should remain always a fool number one, ready to be chastised. Then he's perfect. In the moral instruction, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita gives this instruction, that lālane bahavo doṣas tadane bahavo guṇaḥ: "If you chastise your son or disciple, he'll improve, and if you say, 'Oh, you are all right,' then he'll degrade." Tasmāt putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca tāḍayet na tu lalayet: "Therefore you always chastise your son and disciple. Never flat..." What is called?
Prabhupāda: Vānaprastha college, yes. That is the very essential thing at the present moment, that a class of men... Just like the same example: If one wants to become an engineer he must be properly trained up. If he wants to become a medical man he must be properly trained up. Similarly, if one wants to become a brāhmaṇa, then he must be properly trained up, or even if one does not want, the state should maintain a college where a real brāhmaṇa is trained up. Just like Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee, when he opened some higher studies of academic qualification, so there was one or two students, and there were three professors drawing at least twelve hundred rupees per month. So twelve hundred rupees per month, that means thirty-six hundred, expenditure, and the income is thirty-six rupees. It is not the question of money, but it is the question of culture. So even though at the present moment people are not inclined to become a brāhmaṇa, I tried it. I tried it before starting this movement. I tried to some friends that "You have got four sons. Give me one son. I shall train him how to become a perfect brāhmaṇa." Nobody agreed. They said, "Swamiji, (Hindi)," But if there is not a ideal class of brāhmaṇa, then how you can say that you become moralist? If there is no example of moralist, how you can ask people, "Become moralist"?
Prabhupāda: All people.
Governor: No, all people... One or two could be taken out of many.
Prabhupāda: No, that I asked him. Actually the idea is in the society as it is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The guṇas are there. Just like naturally one is taking education just to become a politician, one is taking education how to become a high character saintly person. That natural inclination is already there, but that is not being properly harnessed. Therefore a regular educational institution should be there where proper training of brāhmaṇa, proper training of kṣatriya, vaiśya, must be given. These four divisions must remain there. And the, so far the brahminical culture, that must be there. Otherwise you cannot say that you become moralist. Where is the example of moralist? A section of person must be there, fully moralist. That ideal section is now lacking. Therefore, what I have written, that?
Prabhupāda: This kind of understanding at the present time, at the present time... (Hindi) So we give reference, that "Present time, everyone is fallen." But truth is always the same, not at present time. So the real truth is that ideal man of character there must be. Because at the present moment there is no character, there is no moral education, therefore we have to adapt according to them, no. The pukka moralist, he must be moralist. It doesn't matter that "People at the present time, they do all immoral activities; therefore we have to adjust." No. Strictly one should be moralist. There is no question of present time or past time. That should be real point of view. Then?
Brahmānanda: "Regarding the elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saṁsṛti, we must adopt the whole varṇa and āśramas as they are recommended in all the śāstras. If you give up these directions of the śāstras, that is neither dharma nor saṁsṛti, at least in the Indian tradition, as it is directed in the Bhagavad-gītā that the four divisions of social and the four divisions of religious systems like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsī must be adopted. Otherwise there is no tradition of bhāratīya sanskṛiti."
Prabhupāda: If you give up this varṇāśrama-dharma, then where is your bhāratīya sanskṛiti? But they are trying to give it up, abolish this. Then where is bhāratīya sanskṛiti? Then?
Carol: The question of love.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot understand the principles of life and morality, Jesus Christ's instruction that "Thou shall not kill." So how you become philosopher?
Carol: How is the love to be understood? Between people or through inner sort of communication with a higher self?
Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda said that you could not understand the simple instruction, so where is the question of understanding philosophy? Not love. Philosophy.
Prabhupāda: You have no love, because you are accustomed to kill. Philosophy begins when you know that everyone is part and parcel of God, and everyone should be given the full facilities to live without injuring anyone for one's personal benefit. Paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). A paṇḍita, philosopher, means learned scholar. Not fools and rascals can become philosopher. Those who are learned scholar, thoughtful, they can become philosopher. But if one has no knowledge how to behave with other living entities, what is the meaning of becoming a philosopher?
Carol: How would you go about teaching this idea of love?
Prabhupāda: Love means that I want to eat something, and if I love somebody, then I will see that my beloved also eats. If you take something from your beloved, naturally the lovers present things. Just a boy loves a girl. He presents something to the girl. So, if you accept presentation by others, we should give him also something. And, if I have got some confidential thing, I must disclose it to the lover, and the lover is also expected, he should not keep anything confidential. He should disclose it. These are the six reciprocal exchanges between the lover and the beloved. If I love you, because you are beautiful, for my sense gratification, but I keep everything secret, that is not love. That is sense gratification. Lust. These are the signs of love.
Prabhupāda: That is the idea. That is the real purpose. They want to kill Kṛṣṇa. That is the endeavor of Hiranyakasipu, Kamsa, that "We shall kill Kṛṣṇa." And ultimately they become killed. Their faith is like that.
Amogha: Their whole idea of Indian history, of Vedic history, is completely perverted. When we say five thousand years ago Vyāsadeva compiled this in writing, they say, "There was no civilization five thousand..." They said, "Only two thousand years ago there was some tribes, and they were not very moral," and things like this, all completely nonsense, because they misread the Bhāgavata and things like this. And then they teach some of the students these crazy ideas. Not all of them, but I talked to some who teach like this.
Prabhupāda: The more you fight with these rascals, the more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are a fighting soldier. Kṛṣṇa very much appreciates. (long pause) So you take Bhagavad-gītā by your own interpretation, and I take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. So who is right? Who will decide this? You interpret in your own way. I don't interpret. I take it as it is. Now we are two parties. So who is correct?
Amogha: They say because so many others...
Prabhupāda: No, no, there are two parties. That's all. Others means one who interprets, that is one party. And there is one party who does not interpret. So who is correct?
Prabhupāda: That is... Unwillingly, when it is done, that is excused. And willingly, when it is done, it is cheating. That in your America there was a Moral Rearmament Movement. So it flourished for some days. Their process was admit, admission of sinful activities, that Christian method. "So I will admit. That's all. Again I do. 'Yes, I have done this.' Then my all reaction is gone. Then again I do it." That is described in the Bhāgavata, kuñjara-śaucavat, the elephant, elephant's cleanliness. Elephants cleanse very nicely in the water, and as soon as come on the land, they will take dust and throw, immediately. So what is the use of cleansing? Kuñjara-śaucavat. You cleanse; again you become unclean. Then what is the use of cleaning?
Paramahaṁsa: Many devotees wish... Now they have become devotees and have had so much bad training, they wish that they could have gone to Gurukula so they would not be so mistrained.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, one boy in Sydney, he has been a devotee for a few years, three or four years, but now he has fallen away because of lusty association, I suppose, or bad association. So is this unwilling or willing, because he has become attracted to women again?
Prabhupāda: That is one of the defects, our society, that women are there, and one falls victim of these women. And it is not possible to keep the society strictly for men. That is also not possible. But actually no woman should live in the temple. That is the...
Prabhupāda: He was distributing leaflet like that?
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, literature inviting people, you know, about the conference. (break) Is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita widely available in India?
Prabhupāda: That is not very important thing. It has nothing to do with spiritual..., but moral instruction.
Siddha-svarūpa: For kṣatriyas?
Prabhupāda: No, for everyone. You can get from India, Canakya Paṇḍita. It is called Cāṇakya-śloka, "Verses composed by Canakya," Cāṇakya-śloka. (break) ...western country, they have come to a stage in which by nature they are now seeking after some spiritual importance. And that is available in India. But these rascals, they are taking advantage of it and exploiting, this Guru Mahārāja, these yogis, these... But these people, western people, they are searching after this. So it is our duty especially to give them the right thing. They are searching after, and they are taking advantage of it and exploiting them. (break) ...is one of them.
John Mize: That the purpose of the human existence is to improve it's moral nature, to reunite ultimately with God, to be pleasing to God. So it's similar in that sense. He apparently disagrees on the origin...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sattva-guṇa. Good character means sattva-guṇa, to become brāhmaṇa and then love God. This is Vedic civilization.
Jayatīrtha: Does he make any description of God? Any explanation?
John Mize: His thesis is that God is an intelligent moral force. But he avoided anthropomorphism by not projecting such properties as anger onto God. But he recognized personality in God. God is a moral intelligence and powerful.
Prabhupāda: So to become angry, that is also qualification of God, to become angry.
Prabhupāda: Those who are demons, those who are disturbing elements, they should be killed. And those who are honest and peaceful, they should be maintained. But because it is material world, the world of duality, there are good and evil, so you have to curb down the evil. Sometimes force is required. So that killing is not bad. When the enemy is aggressive and you are killing, that killing and poor animal who is supplying milk... You are drinking milk, your mother, and you are killing. This killing and that killing is not the same thing. According to Vedic civilization the cow is to be given special protection. Why it is recommended for the cow? It does not say of other animal. When animal killing is required according to Vedic civilization, those who are meat-eaters, they are allowed to kill some insignificant animal like deer, goat, pigs. It is for the animal eaters, not for all. But if one is bent upon... And there are persons, they want meat-eating. So for them these unimportant animals are recommended. But cow is very important animal. You get from its milk so many nutritious food. So apart from religious sentiment, from economic point of view, cow-killing is not good. And from moral point of view it is not good because you drink cow's milk, so cow is your mother. According to Vedic civilization, there are seven mothers.
Prabhupāda: Well, we are not very much concerned with political situation. But our proposition is—either political, social, economical or philosophical, anything—without Kṛṣṇa, it is all zero. So far Mrs. Gandhi is concerned, she is inclined to some spiritual understanding. So actually if she becomes very advanced spiritually, then this emergency situation will improve. Otherwise... and it is the public opinion against democracy. So democracy is not very much beneficial anywhere and everywhere. In your country also, you voted Mr. Nixon, democracy, but you were not satisfied with him. That means democracy, ordinary men they select somebody and again they try to bring him down. Why? When he was selected, it means it was a mistake. So according to Vedic civilization, there was no such thing as democracy. It was monarchy, but the monarchy means the king was very highly spiritually advanced. The king was called rājarṣi, means king, at the same time, saintly person. We have got another example in our country-Gandhi. When he was political leader, he was practically dictator, but because he was a man of very high moral character, people took him, accepted him as the dictator. So dictatorship is good, provided the dictator is highly qualified spiritually. That is the Vedic verdict. The battle of Kurukṣetra was there because Lord Kṛṣṇa wanted rājarṣi, Yudhiṣṭhira, should be on the head. So the king is supposed to be the representative of God. So he must be a godly person. Then it will be successful. That's all right. (end)
Satsvarūpa:
- yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo
- yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ
- tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtir
- dhruvā nītir matir mama
- (BG 18.78)
"Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion."
Prabhupāda: Where there is Kṛṣṇa and His devotee, all opulences, all power, all strength, everything is there. Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo yatra dhanur-dharaḥ pārthaḥ. Wherever there is Arjuna... Just like Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa were on the chariot. Whole battlefield became victorious on behalf of Arjuna. That is wanted. A devotee must be there, and Kṛṣṇa must be there. Then all opulences will come. That is the secret. Why a devotee shall go to the forest for meditating or acquiring some mystic powers? He doesn't require anything. If he keeps Kṛṣṇa always with him, then everything will... Yes. Is there any purport?
Prabhupāda: No, Gandhi had no spiritual knowledge. He was little moralist. That's all. That was also good. But these men are not even moralist.
Indian Man (2): How can we fast move in India to spread our Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Indian Man (2): How can we spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: If we go village to village. The village people are still pure, at least not so polluted as the town people, or especially the so-called educated. (break) ...hari-kīrtana koro... (Bengali) We held this hari-kīrtana in Delhi, Calcutta, Bombay. Oh, at least fifteen to thirty thousand people were daily... Even from the office with coats and pants, they are dancing. And they asked me, "Swamiji, continue it." (break)
Indian Man (2): I traveled all over India so many years, place to place, but I found the Gujarati is one of the best where the people have there some natural-born Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's fact. Everywhere—Gujaratis, Marwaris, Punjabis—more or less, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there.
Brahmānanda: "Asked about the political situation in his native India and the criticized actions of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, the swami replied that 'Mrs. Gandhi is inclined to some spiritual understanding, and if she fully develops it the situation will improve. Democracy is not much beneficial if its leaders have no spiritual values. Mahatma Gandhi was practically a dictator, but he was a man of high moral character, so people accepted him. Dictatorship can be good provided the dictator is spiritually developed.' "
Prabhupāda: (Bengali)
Lalitā: You take this benefit. (Bengali) ...spiritually conscious, everything will be... (Bengali) But if it is the nasty things, the nasty and...
Prabhupāda: Politically it will be failure, but spiritually it will be successful.
Lalitā: (Bengali) She is eager to meet him, so he should talk high level... (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: ...because I am missionary, (Bengali) permanent resident American... (Bengali) ...our visa, passport... (Bengali) ...certain percentage... (Bengali) ...so "You will have to wait for six years."
Prabhupāda: Whatever he says, he is saying nonsense. That's it.
Indian man (5): No, no, the point is that it is a story to teach people the rules and regulations of war. He wrote... It is a hypothesis during which the people are taught the morals of the life. No such war actually existed. There is already...
Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. He's a rascal.
Indian man (2): But we have seen a person rejecting his own father: "My father was also (unclear)."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore a rascal can say like that. A rascal can say like that.
Prabhupāda: One—there are so many cases. This Lilavati Munshi, this is the same thing. You know that? There is a big history behind this.
Kartikeya: The failures are due to some basic reason. All the big people have failed, and they have not been able to deliver the country or anything because their moral character...
Prabhupāda: No, no, even they have delivered the country, these physical elements you cannot avoid. You cannot avoid unless you are on the transcendental platform, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you are on the physical platform, you cannot avoid. It is impossible. (Hindi) Gandhiji... (Hindi)... mistake. (Hindi) "And physical? Oh, you have done this? Fifteen days fasting."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is pious activity on the material platform?
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is transcendental, above pious activity. By accumulation of pious activities one may be elevated to the transcendental position. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ (SB 10.12.11). Puṇya means pious activities. After doing for many, many years simply pious activities one may be elevated to the transcendental platform. So pious activities cannot be compared with transcendental activities. But it may help in the long run. Therefore transcendental activities does not depend on pious activity. It is not dependent. Then it will take long, long years. But automatically he becomes pious, achieves the result of pious activities.
Cyavana: (break) ...the standard of morality, Arjuna's activity of killing was immoral.
Prabhupāda: Morality, immorality, this is all creation of mind. Real purpose of life, to serve the order of Kṛṣṇa, that is real morality.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think that we must all be kṛpa-siddhi, because by your mercy you have lifted us out of hellish conditions of life.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's mercy. You have accepted Kṛṣṇa's mercy. This is the... (break) This empirical policy was very good, provided it would have been done for Kṛṣṇa. Then they could unite the whole world.
Prabhupāda: And to kill, that is very human. Rascal. Kick them upon their face. You rascal, you are talking of morality, rascal, you go to hell. Your place is hell. "Devil citing scripture." You are not... You are so shameless that you do not be ashamed to speak like that. You are so shameless. Your civilization is so shameless. You are killing child in the womb, and you are talking "inhumanity." Just see. We have to deal with such fools and rascals.
Harikeśa: But they say the child in the womb is not living. They say it's not life yet. Only after it takes birth.
Prabhupāda: That is said by you. You, the tenth-class rascal, you say like that. No sane man says like that. Because you are a tenth-class rascal—you have no knowledge—you say like that. They are... The so-called scientists, they are tenth-class rascals.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's like the flowery words of the Vedas, flowery words of the Vedas, mostly simply dealing with moral principles.
Prabhupāda: That also broken. He said, "Thou shall not kill." They broke it.
Cyavana: Yes, they broke every...
Prabhupāda: Everything. (break) Hearing is there. Therefore the other items, eating, sleeping and mating must be there. So there is arrangement for them, everything, within the sand. How you can say within the sand there is no life?
Brahmānanda: They think they can have the eating and the sleeping and the mating and not the fearing. They want to have the eating, the sleeping and the mating but not the fearing.
Prabhupāda: Why? Here is fearing. Why they are going out? They know we are a different living entity.
Prabhupāda: And now they are trying to drive away Indians.
Indian: Now they have brought a income tax official all from India here. So the Indian people, they were giving their money to the African and taking money to London and U.K., here and there. So now they have brought out from India. They are very strict. People still take money, but they have more to take than the African. The African people are very poor, and they were giving them so much money and taking money out of it. It is difficult for them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These people can be brought under control by bribing. There is no problem. They have no moral strength, and poor. They will accept bribe. I think by bribing it is still going on. Otherwise how they can stop this bribing? That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Then where is the solution? What is the solution? If after thirty years it is going to be collapsed, then what is the use?
Devotee (1): But it's the moral problem that they're having, isn't it? Not the sickness, but the moral problem of either killing off one person or letting him continue to survive.
Prabhupāda: Well, they have no moral. They are killing so many persons. That is killing. That is not... They are expert in killing.
Saurabha: But they're afraid to take decision. They're very much confused.
Harikeśa: They're afraid to take a decision whether to kill them or not by pulling out the plug.
Prabhupāda: You take decision or not, he will be killed. That you cannot say. You are becoming very much moralist, whether to kill, but it will be killed. You cannot save him. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: But that is not very good law. That is not very good law. If the president also can be impeached, that is not very good law.
Dr. Patel: Sir, if the government is made according to the rule and regulations established by our religions, then that president or the king is above law. Otherwise these fools must be within law. But the way they have been ruling the countries and ransacking the people's morals and material...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyone, anyone who is within law, he cannot be president.
Dr. Patel: But these are within the law, president. These are the artificial constitutions made up, not the constitution as given by Vedas and Vedic religions. Then king or president is above law—to my mind. I may be wrong. I am open to correction.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we want rājarṣi. We don't want ordinary king. Rājarṣi.
Dr. Patel: They have gone mad now, sir. Actually they have ransacked the morality of this land, and they are going to ransack the social conditions. (Hindi) I have got one rifle, one revolver and one pistol. I am keeping always with me now. (Hindi) These people, sir, have really ruined this, this batch of rulers.
Prabhupāda: That is everywhere.
Dr. Patel: Sadar Patel by (indistinct). He was a man of practice. He could have...
Prabhupāda: But who will live? Everyone will die.
Dr. Patel: Everyone will die, that's right. These people, they behave as if they are living permanently. Then they are doing a bad thing, they think that they are...
Prabhupāda: So we have to tolerate. There is no other way.
Prabhupāda: But that is moral instruction. That is moral instruction. Even if you are not a devotee, you should not think of these things. That is the moral instruction. The brahmacārī, if he thinks of woman, that is also retricted.
Dr. Patel: But in eight ways he must observe brahmācārya. Eight ways. All the five senses and the three..., mind (Sanskrit).
Prabhupāda: What is the time?
Harikesa: 7.10 a.m.
Prabhupāda: So we shall return. (short discussion of actual time)
Dr. Patel: It is 7.20 a.m. You are airport?
Harikesa: Airport time.
Dr. Patel: Airport time is wrong. Every clock is very different time there. Each one has its own standard.
Prabhupāda: Some time back when I was a young boy, I went to see a football match in Calcutta. So after finishing, I came walking through the Bentink Street. So I saw one time in the beginning, and I came to my house, some watch, and clock is giving the same time. (pause) We are giving very simple formula: just become Kṛṣṇa conscious and all problems will be solved. All problems.
Dr. Patel: And when you read Bhāgavata you also get the sat-saṅga, because the, all the histories of so many saints...
Prabhupāda: Yes, Cānakya Paṇḍita also advised: kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama(?). This is..., he was a politician, and still he said, kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama, and smara nityam anityada kuru punyam avoratram. This is his advise, that give up this bad association of atheist class of man. Sadhu means devotee. Durajana means nondevotee. So kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says like that. When He was asked by one gṛhastha bhakta, "What is the duty of a Vaiṣṇava?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu immediately said, asat-saṅga tyāgī ei vaiṣṇava acāra. A Vaiṣṇava means he must give up the association of nondevotees. Then the question will be, "Who is nondevotee?" Asat-strī-saṅgī kṛṣṇa bhakta... One who is too much attached to material enjoyment. Strī-saṅgī is the basic point, and one who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is asat-saṅga. Asat-saṅga-tyāgī..., there are two lines. And the moralist, Cānakya Paṇḍita, he also said, kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama. You give up something, you must take something. Otherwise you will not be able to stay.
Lokanātha: We cannot go for experimenting other possibilities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no question of experimenting whether he is my father. You take the truth from the mother, and that's final. (break) ...being more and more convinced, why Kṛṣṇa says na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhā prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15)? Huh? Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is within these groups, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ. That is being more and more confirmed.
Kīrtanānanda: They may appear like moral men or learned men, but still they are...
Prabhupāda: Not...
Kīrtanānanda: ...rascal.
Prabhupāda: Rascal, yes. Therefore it begins in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). The beginning is truth. Satyam paraṁ dhīmahi. There is no question of experiment. It is not this book, Bhāgavata, is an experiment to find out. It is beginning from the truth. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi.
Lokanātha: What is sādhana-bhakti?
Prabhupāda: Sādhana-bhakti is practice. Truth is there, but how to be intimately connected with truth, that is sādhana.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Acyutānanda: Even socially, though, without religious, scientific, practical God consciousness, how can there be a civilization? How can anyone know that there's a difference between right and wrong or morality unless there is God consciousness, to know that someone is watching everything I do? If you avoid that.... Just like we say, they want Rāma-rājya without Rāma. But they want the rājya.
Prabhupāda: Now, the laws and legislative assembly there are, and there is punishment, there is court—everything there is. That we were discussing last night, that where is the honest men? Why? In spite of laws, legislative assembly, court and everything, the wholesale rogues and dishonest. Then what is the use of this? What is your answer? Why you are checked on the airport just like a culprit, criminal? They cannot trust even a gentleman, although he is educated, may be holding very good office, but still, he is not to be trusted. So this is the result of your so-called function, that there is no honest man throughout the whole world. Then, what is the use of such education? And what is the use of their living? Let them die. No hospital for them.
Prabhupāda: Which minister?
Jayapatākā: The Ajit Panja. He's the health minister. So we didn't see him...
Bhavānanda: (break) ...that we must take drastic steps for curbing the population.
Prabhupāda: Why don't you become brahmacārī?
Hari-śauri: Too drastic.
Jayapatākā: We want to present that we are, by moral training, achieving that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are making them celibate. What is called? Celibacy.
Jayapatākā: Even our gṛhasthas, they are only having one or two children. (end)
Hari-śauri: A rich man no matter what his morals or character...
Prabhupāda: No, nobody cares.
Hari-śauri: ...he becomes very attractive.
Prabhupāda: Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no good quality. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). These are the... From the Vedic angle of vision, the Western people are the most uncivilized. Only money is covering them. When they introduced that mini-skirt for the girl, how much abominable it was considered in India. But they very publicly introduced.
Hari-śauri: Now even in India, slowly...
Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll imitate.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. The.... Is.... It is moral instruction, what to speak of high education. Means it, preliminary moral education. That is,
- mātṛvat para-dāreṣu
- para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat
- ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu
- yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ
This is learned. What is the meaning? Explain.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One who sees...
Prabhupāda: No, no. He'll explain.
Prabhupāda: Now, the Vedic civilization is "All right, you are not satisfied, one woman, don't pollute the innocent girls or in the home. Go to the prostitute." Still, in big, big cities, there is a quarter, prostitute quarter, still. They are professional prostitutes.
Pañca-draviḍa: What was the Vedic punishment if somebody broke these moral principles?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pañca-draviḍa: What would be the punishment in a Vedic society if somebody...
Prabhupāda: Oh. Picture, Fifth Canto. You see the description of the hell.
Pañca-draviḍa: Hell. But I mean, within the society itself, there was punishment there also from the king?
Prabhupāda: Everyone who will commit sinful activities will be punished. That is nature's law. Exactly like that: If you infect some disease, you must suffer from that disease. The nature's law is so strict, and it is going on. It doesn't require any supervision. The supervisions are already made so perfect. You infect this disease: you suffer from it. That's all.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind going to the...
Prabhupāda: No, if you preach these moral principles, nobody will object. Nobody will object.
Dr. Patel: They are shamming themselves as big moralist. They go to temples and what not and what not and what not. And then they...
Prabhupāda: But still in India they will never accept a drunkard as moralist. Still.
Dr. Patel: Sir, all of them are drunkards, who are there.
Prabhupāda: You cannot say.
Dr. Patel: Majority, sir.
Prabhupāda: Mass of people, they are not drunkard.
Prabhupāda: Therefore one.... The government's duty is to see that everyone is actually religious and moral. It doesn't matter if he follows some type of religion. (break) ...to discriminate that "Hindu religion is good, Muslim religion is..." Then you cannot act as king.
Dr. Patel: All religion are of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharmaṁ tu...
Dr. Patel: I have not been able to find out any difference between the Bhāgavata-dharma and the Christianity. I have studied so thoroughly both of them. Actually Jesus Christ has taught nothing but Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata. Still, the Christians, when they came here, these Portuguese, converted these people to Christians. They are fanatics. They are not...
Prabhupāda: No, they are doing.... They are doing in their own countries. In France the Roman Catholics and the Protestants, they are fighting and cutting each other's head. And still going on, it is. This is fanaticism.
Prabhupāda: That story, that some thieves stolen. Now, when they are dividing, they say, "Please honestly, religious divide." The things are stolen, and now it is to be divided religiously. The foundation of the thing is stealing, and they are dividing in.... Now they are making laws, morality.
Devotee (1): They have a saying, "Honor among thieves."
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) This has been named by father, kaitava, simply cheating. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). The duplicity, hypocrisy, is there completely rejected.
Guru-kṛpā: Kṛṣṇa is a better cheater, though. He will cheat them in the end.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not cheater. The Kṛṣṇa's energy is so powerful that anyone who is a cheater, he will be cheated, that's all, automatically. (break) If you infect some disease, you'll have to suffer, automatically. It is not that the disease has to be injected. No. Because you have infected, you'll suffer. The same law is there. You have done this sinful. You'll suffer that. That is the cycle of birth and death. You have created mentality. You'll become the same animal, and you suffer. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). (break) ...we have. We have seen this cloud, extraordinary.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. I think every government is looking to develop people of high moral character. And our society is doing that.
Interviewer: Do you attempt to speak with governments and city officials and that sort of thing to spread your message?
Prabhupāda: (to devotee:) I think you have talked with these city authorities.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Here is the boy, he can...
Devotee: Yes, we've spoken with some of the government officials. I've spoken with or I've had contact with the cities where we have not personal contact but through the mail, and also some contact with the minister of immigrations.
Interviewer: How long do you intend to keep traveling and, and...
Prabhupāda: If I stayed four days in each center, it takes one year to travel all the centers.
Prabhupāda: And similarly, they will have to condemn. If they follow the wrong path, they will have the wrong result. This is not...
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their leader, Mao Tse Tung, he was very austere, and he is very moral, and he has these purges where he takes the men who he sees are not..., or who are trying to use their position for their own power, and he takes it away from them. They are constantly going through these purges of their system to insure that no one enjoys more than others, at the expense of others.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Artificial, though.
Prabhupāda: So that is artificial way of.... Unless one is prepared to.... Just like why they are inducing persons to sacrifice their accumulated wealth for the state? Why? Communistic idea that everyone should be equal. So if somebody has more than others, they want to take it away. Just like in India this policy is now growing. So everyone should give away, but now it is being done by law, by force. But that will not stay.
Prabhupāda: But a devotee's view is that whatever may be her inquiry, if she purchases one book, she'll be benefited. This is the point. But you, as big moralist, you, (laughs) you think that he has cheated. He has not cheated. He has benefited her. Somehow or other he has given a book to her. Someday she'll read and she'll benefit. But you people, you think that why we should sell like that, that, "Yes, there is some solution of power shortage." Actually there is, but you think that he has lied. Just like there are sometimes the father's child is suffering from fever. So the father wants that the child may take the medicine, and promises, "You take the medicine. I'll give you this cake." The purpose is not to give the cake actually. The purpose is the child may take the medicine. That is the purpose. But when the father promises that "If you take the medicine I'll give you the cake." But cake is dangerous for the child who is suffering from fever, but still the father allures him. "If you take the medicine and I'll give you cake." So is the father wrong or right?
Prabhupāda: Similarly, similarly, if somehow or other one can sell one book to a person it is good for him. Don't take how he is selling, but he's giving the book to that person and he's paying something and that is good. But big moralist, they cannot understand. They'll see, "Why the father has spoken lie to his son. He's not a good father." They'll mistake. Father is always friend. Father cannot be enemy. But for the benefit of the rascal child sometimes he has to say like that. That "If you take the medicine I'll give you cake." So those who are mundane moralist, they cannot understand this thing, because they are mundane platform. The another example is that Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. He was asked by Kṛṣṇa that "You speak lie to Dronācārya that 'Your son is dead.' " Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than Kṛṣṇa. For this moral activity he had to visit hell. This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is why we are pushing so much this sales of books. Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles. Arjuna. Arjuna was arguing with Kṛṣṇa that this killing of my relatives, it is horrible, abominable. Better I beg and maintain myself than I kill my relatives and become a king. Did he not say? That is ordinary man's argument. But as Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused to speak lie, (break) Arjuna in spite of his conviction that it is sinful to kill my relatives, he still agreed to kill. Why?
Bhūrijana: That is supreme moral, Kṛṣṇa's desire.
Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa desires, if one dies, he's above all this material. But it should not be manufactured. The thing is that our spiritual master wants to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he has repeatedly stressed to distribute books, we shall distribute books by any means, that is good. That is good. And if you become moralist that, "Oh, they're taking this means, that means for selling of book, so I'm big moralist. I'm bigger than him."
Bhūrijana: I don't think there is so much enmity because of the books themselves.
Prabhupāda: No, I think that.. I do not know what they are doing, but I have information that they're not selling books.
Bhūrijana: Some I think. I think some.
Prabhupāda: But not...
Bhūrijana: Comparable amount.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Others who were transgressing the moral principle, they were selling more books. And those who are big moralists, they could not.
Prabhupāda: They should follow what their spiritual master says. Book selling, there is no question of moral and immoral. They must sell. Just like in fighting. Where there is fight, the soldiers, to gain victory, there is no question of moral and immoral. He must.
Bhūrijana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but I think the thing I understand least, is that if they are not doing what you want... I mean... I'm sitting before you now and you're telling me and I'm listening, and you are my spiritual master. I must accept.
Prabhupāda: We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same thing. Let the child take medicine. Never mind the father is speaking lies. That is... Because as soon as he takes the medicine he'll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a Kṛṣṇa literature. Doesn't matter what is the means. Because he has taken one Kṛṣṇa literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle.
Prabhupāda: And the gopīs were thinking "What this rascal says, say?" (chuckles) They are so sorry that, "We have come leaving everything and this rascal is giving us moral instruction." This is love, they can chastise Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...somehow or other, black market, white market, red market. Let them make... And as soon as there is taste, there will be very good demand. And this black marketeer will make profit and they'll do. This Chinese policy or the Russian policy will not stand. Simply we require to make ourselves strong. As soon as we become stronger than the communist movement, we shall finish it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Finish everyone?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, from the spiritual point of view, we know that if we're not responsible, then we have to suffer great consequences according to our actions. From the material point of view, though, people can live an irresponsible life, and they have some earnings. They feel that they can enjoy. What is the need for morality?
Prabhupāda: Then what is a responsible life? Hmm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, their whole plan is to avoid responsibility.
Prabhupāda: That is sinful. As soon as you irresponsible, you are sinful. (break) ...soon as you forget the simple truth that you are servant of God, you are irresponsible. Now your suffering begins. (break) ...kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta). Just like as citizen of your state, you have to abide by the laws of the state. As soon as you disobey, you are irresponsible. That's all. You suffer. Good citizen means who abides by the laws of the state. And as soon as you break it, immediately you are irresponsible and you must be punished.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Practically, though, without God consciousness, isn't it that people see that whether they are moral or not moral, they still suffer?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This material world is meant for suffering. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). That is the description in the Bhagavad-gītā. This is a place for suffering. And that is also temporary. You cannot make adjustment: "Never mind, it is suffering; I shall remain here." No, that also will not be allowed. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15).
Hari-śauri: Purport. "People in general always require a leader who can teach the public by practical behavior. A leader cannot teach the public to stop smoking if he himself smokes. Lord Caitanya said that a teacher should behave properly even before he begins teaching. One who teaches in that way is called ācārya, or the ideal teacher. Therefore, a teacher must follow the principles of śāstra, scripture, to reach the common man. The teacher cannot manufacture rules against the principles of revealed scriptures. The revealed scriptures, like Manu-saṁhitā and others, are considered the standard books to be followed by human society. Thus the leader's teaching should be based on the principles of the standard rules as they are practiced by the great teachers. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also affirms that one should follow in the footsteps of great devotees, and that is the way of progress on the path of spiritual realization. The king or the executive head of a state, the father and the schoolteacher are all considered to be natural leaders of the innocent people in general. All such natural leaders have a great responsibility to their dependents; therefore they must be conversant with standard books of moral and spiritual codes."
George Gullen: Very good, very good, I believe all that. Every word. The people need leadership, inspiration that they can follow with their whole heart.
Prabhupāda: There must be practice, that we are teaching. That simply not theoretical, but practical. Here in our institute, we teach all the students practically how to become God conscious. Theoretical knowledge will not help us. There must be practical behavior. They are rising early in the morning, attending maṅgala-ārati, then having class, Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, chanting, in this way, twenty-four hours engaged. It is not fifteen minutes recreation. No. Twenty-four hours program.
Hari-śauri: In that newspaper article in the Butler Eagle, that very first article when you just arrived that we saw? They showed that copy in Los Angeles. It mentioned, the reporter there, he quoted you as saying that—you were telling him about milk, how good it was—and he quoted you as saying that milk is the miracle food for babies and old men.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. No, it may be there are so many other foods, but cent percent of the human society, everyone, has some way or other taken milk. So morally, cow is our mother. How these mothers are being killed? That is the question. Where is morality? Where is...? And they are drawing last drop of the milk. And there is necessity of milk. "After taking whatever money you have got..., take, I shall kill you." What is this? Horrible society. If I take from you whatever you have got in your pocket and then I kill you.... What is this society?
Jagadīśa: The only thing that stops them from killing each other is that there are certain laws. Otherwise, I'm sure that the human beings are so barbaric that they would kill each other.
Hari-śauri: Actually, they are making adjustments to the law so that they can do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in India, in Vṛndāvana, they are killing now for a little money. They are so poverty-stricken. They have got a clique. Because in Vṛndāvana there are many retired men; they get some money from bank or some saving bank in post office, and they have got clique with this post office man and the bank clerk who has taken money. Bon Mahārāja was attacked. He brought some one lakh rupees, one and a half lakh rupees for some.... He was recognized by the.... As soon, at night.... He was living in the Institute. Attacked, in the presence of police. Police was guarding that others may not come to help.
Kīrtanānanda: But in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that those in the mode of ignorance, they take irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion.
Prabhupāda: No, religion, there is no religion for them, but there is no morality. Here we are having so many children, we don't brag that "We cannot maintain these children. Kill them." We never say that. Never mind. Let them be trained up as Kṛṣṇa conscious, live comfortably, take milk. So which is better civilization? Running with motorcar, putputputputputputputput and killing child? Is that civilization?
Kīrtanānanda: Most of these children are not even our own. They have been taken in from...
Prabhupāda: Just see, that means we welcome.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, they think that liberation means that you can do anything you like, that you are free from any moral or ethic...
Prabhupāda: That is the rascaldom. That is rascaldom. Just like in prison house, if a prisoner thinks that he can do whatever he likes, that is rascaldom. That is going on. The modern civilization is rascaldom. He is seeing practically that he's under the control of material nature, and still he thinks that "I can do whatever I like." This is rascaldom.
Prabhupāda: That's it. The aim is to please the Supreme through the spiritual master. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo **. This is the idea. Now, who is teaching this tapasya? Where is the school, college? Smoke: this is tapasya. And they are smoking before teacher. No offense. What you'll expect from such student? Animal civilization. This is not civilization. No tapasya, no brahmacārī. Tapo divyaṁ (SB 5.5.1). And tapasya begins from brahmacārī. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena (SB 6.1.13), to control. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dantaḥ. How to control senses, that is the beginning of life. Not ABCD learning and maybe your character may be less than an animal's, and you have got a degree of the university. You become a learned man. No. That is not accepted. Even from moral instruction, who is educated? That is described by Canakya Pandit.
Prabhupāda: If there is no such acceptance, where is religion?
Hari-śauri: It just becomes a show. Religion nowadays has degenerated so that people more or less accept it just as some moral code now, because there's no knowledge of God.
Prabhupāda: So where is that morality?
Hari-śauri: (laughs) There's no morality either.
Prabhupāda: While hunting, drinking, meat-eating, is that morality?
Hari-śauri: No. (end)
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, there is, if we think of not in terms of science, but just in terms of our day-to-day experience, in social, moral, ethical, all levels of consciousness, if one analyzes this a little carefully, the root cause of our complete ethical background at this time is mainly due to this theory that "You are from molecules, and when you finish your body you'll also go back to molecules. So don't worry about all these high-sounding philosophical words. You just enjoy whatever you want and do whatever you like to do." So this type of complete materialistic...
Prabhupāda: Irresponsible life.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, meaninglessness. No meaning. So it has no purpose because of this very concept. So at least there's a strong influence, especially in the colleges and the university circles, the students...
Prabhupāda: Educational circles. Yes. In the education circles they are made fools. Education means he's a more fool, that's all. That is education. Mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. These fools and rascals, their actual knowledge is taken away, and they are coming out as educated. That we are protesting.
Interviewer: Don't you find the whole Kṛṣṇa movement more successful in an age and era when there is such laxity of moral standards and spiritual leadership and direction?
Prabhupāda: No, at any stage of life, if one accepts the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he can make advance.
Rāmeśvara: She asked, "Is it more favorable for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness if there is some material problems, social problems? If there is a lack of God consciousness, then people become frustrated. Is that a more favorable situation for Kṛṣṇa consciousness to take root?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, if we arrange social, political and everything favorable for spiritual understanding, then it becomes easier.
Terry: I have a question about this particular age. The world seems to be dividing itself between two kinds of materialists, the one which pays lip service to spiritual precedents but really devotes itself to self-aggrandizement, and the other which establishes an atheistic doctrine in the name of moral struggle with that greedy self-aggrandizement. In fact this atheistic moral doctrine has now taken over virtually the entire Sinic world—China, Tibet, Indochina. Is there some way that, the question is, what is the cosmic purpose for this and how should one come to terms with this prevailing, this increasingly prevailing notion that justice can be established in a material state or a material dimension?
Prabhupāda: In the material world there cannot be any peace, justice, morality. It is not possible. You may try to make some adjustment, but it will never be possible. So, by their concocted imagination, they are thinking, "This way will be beneficial," but unless they come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of peace, prosperity, justice. It is not possible.
Prabhupāda: In the material world there cannot be any peace, justice, morality. It is not possible. You may try to make some adjustment, but it will never be possible. So, by their concocted imagination, they are thinking, "This way will be beneficial," but unless they come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of peace, prosperity, justice. It is not possible.
- brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
- na śocati na kāṅkṣati
- samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
- mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param
- (BG 18.54)
Unless we come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of justice, morality, peace. It is not possible. They may attempt in different ways, by their mental speculative process, but actually it will never come to be true. They are all trying: the scientists, philosophers, politicians, religionists, to make some adjustment, but that is not possible. We must understand the material platform.
Pradyumna: "Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion."
Prabhupāda: So understand Kṛṣṇa like Arjuna. Then Kṛṣṇa is there, Arjuna is there, and all victory is there.
Mrs. Sahani: Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa. Anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa can become Arjuna? Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa, anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: He's like Arjuna. He's like Arjuna. What is Arjuna's qualification? He surrendered, and he says kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). You become also Arjuna-like.
Mrs. Sahani: And the victory is there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, then victory is there. But if one can avoid Kṛṣṇa or kill Kṛṣṇa, then where is victory?
Mrs. Sahani: Victory.
Prabhupāda: So we must have a big temple there.
Saurabha: MRA? It's a moral institute. It's very big.
Prabhupāda: MRA?
Saurabha: MRA, yes.
Prabhupāda: Moral...?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Moral Re-armament.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Saurabha: It's just on the other side.
Prabhupāda: So it is still existing?
Saurabha: Oh, yes. The building is excellent, but nothing is going on. Only twice a year they have a meeting. But it's very well built.
Prabhupāda: This is morality. "You commit immorality as much as you like. You simply admit it. Then it's right" (indistinct) This is their propaganda. They do not want to stop immorality. "You do, and don't hide it—you admit." But persons are so shameless that they will continually do, and they have no shamefulness to hide even. That is the Christian theory, that "Our religion is so... Maybe we are unable to remain without any sin. Christ will excuse us." Is it not? This is going on. This is.
Prabhupāda: We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily. That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature.
Indian man (3): It is not that difficulties were not there (indistinct). I don't have the support, but I feel (indistinct) find that several places the demand for this for the acceptance of (indistinct) also not in the manner in which I had wanted. (indistinct) ...lakhs of people stand against (indistinct) religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people (goes on giving his own opinions-indistinct) ...I hope you are not coming in your way.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Indian man (3): I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we can do together. Possibly this question, building and all that. (indistinct) It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that there is work to be done at the Kurukṣetra.
Prabhupāda: My point is that Kurukṣetra is the place where Bhagavad-gītā was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa, then people will be benefitted. But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad-gītā, then moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). That I believe. Find out this verse. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo.
Prabhupāda: Everything. Yes, bhakti is, generally He gives bhakti. If you want something other than bhakti, you can get it.
Mr. Malhotra: This is the center of M.R.A., Moral rearmament. I phoned them for yesterday, so that Rajmohan Gandhi is away, not here. But the other people are here. We will visit this some time during the day. These days one conference is going on. There are 130 countries. Some conference.
Devotee: There?
Indian man: What is the subject?
Mr. Malhotra: I don't know, remember.
Prabhupāda: Oh, you may not know it, and this will do never any benefit.
Mr. Malhotra: Now this is Pancagani, starts from here. (end)
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Pāpa, everything... In the material world, whatever you do, that is pāpa. In the material world, "This is pāpa, this is puṇya"—this is mental concoction. Everything is pāpa. Dvaite bhadrābhadra sakali samāna. In the world of duality, material world, we have manufactured something—"This is good; this is bad. This is moral, this is immoral"—but Caitanya-caritāmṛta author said, "These are all mental concoction. Everything is the same, material." Material means bad. But we have made some convention—"This is good; this is bad; this is..."
Mr. Gupta: By God's grace I'm a very successful man. I'm youngest chief mechanical engineer on the Central Railway. I know kāma, krodha, lobha, moha—all are, taken to extreme, it's pāpa. I know it. But when they overcome in the heat of the moment, they you're not able to retract yourself. It's only when...
Dr. Patel: Then... Then...
Prabhupāda: No, let him. That you have to practice, how to use kāma, krodha. That is described by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Kṛṣṇa-sevā kāmārpaṇe. Kāma means you have a strong desire to do something. That is kāma. So convert it, this kāma desire, for Kṛṣṇa's activities. Kṛṣṇa-sevā kāmārpaṇe. Krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. And persons who are envious of the devotees, you become angry upon them. You have got this quality, kāma, krodha, lobha, but you can utilize it.
Dr. Patel: They will become clear later on. Slowly, slowly, the cloud is clearing away from them.
Prabhupāda: No, when... There is clear idea already. Nothing is going to happen, but because they are less intelligent, therefore next stage is when their intelligence will happen. Things are already there.
Dr. Patel: The greatest scientist of the world, Einstein, was a great believer in God, and he was a moral just like a ṛṣi.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen his picture.
Prabhupāda: This is false.
Rāmeśvara: "...unless the money was given."
Prabhupāda: This is false.
Rāmeśvara: This is false, completely false. "One of the things we can do is give moral support to these families. How better to do it than to show your support by writing to the..."
Prabhupāda: This we can bring a charge against them: "Prove that we wanted money."
Rāmeśvara: I can show you this later. This is a copy of a newsletter that we have intercepted from the enemy camp. We have our newsletter, and they also have their newsletter. So we have gotten ourselves on their mailing list, so we can find out all their strategy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When there is fight these things are studied. (Hindi) When there is fight there is no question of immoral or moral. "We must get victory," that's all. Kṛṣṇa did it. Kṛṣṇa asked...
Hari-śauri: According to this, they've made it legal, deprogramming. They're making it legal that they can hold a person by force until they break him mentally.
Jagadīśa: Rāmeśvara? Are there many of our devotees who've been deprogrammed, or are they mostly other groups?
Rāmeśvara: Mostly the others. Śrīla Prabhupāda, the business of the Book Trust has gotten very big. So the warehouse in Los Angeles has become too small. So we have gotten a new warehouse.
Prabhupāda: We have got a warehouse like Howrah Station.
Prabhupāda: So that you have made, immoral. Because if He is the proprietor, then He is the proprietor of everything. You have accepted one woman who belongs to Kṛṣṇa. You are immoral. He is the original proprietor of everything, and everything belongs to Him, but He has given you one woman. Tena tyaktena. But no woman belongs to you. So you should stop connection with women. It is immoral. Otherwise every woman belongs to Kṛṣṇa. How you can use Kṛṣṇa's property? That is the disease, that we are trying to enjoy Kṛṣṇa's property. Kṛṣṇa's the proprietor. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva... (BG 5.29). He's the bhokta, He's the enjoyer. How you can enjoy Kṛṣṇa's property? That is immoral. And therefore you shall be punished. You are being punished. Because we are encroaching upon Kṛṣṇa's property illegally, therefore we are suffering. Kṛṣṇa is moral, you are utilizing unauthorized, using this material...
Rāmeśvara: His argument was that if God comes to this world and displays activities with women, it is natural that the followers of that religion will also want to have affairs with women.
Prabhupāda: No. Because they have not studied Kṛṣṇa, they misunderstand in that way. You are fond of woman. Kṛṣṇa comes to show you that in the Vaikuṇṭha, Goloka Vṛndāvana, there is woman, but not in this way. Originally there is. That is pure. So it requires education. You are not educated; you cannot talk. Now sex..., even in our material experience we find that by sex many great men has been found. So how you can accuse sex? You are talking. We should say, "You are a product of sex. So how do you say that sex is bad?"
Prabhupāda: "Jesus... Jesus had to speak to rascals and fools like you. Therefore he did not speak." This is the argument. "Because you are such a fool that Jesus said, 'Thou shall not kill'—your first business was to kill him. So you are so nice, advanced men. Now, what he'll speak to you? He knew that you are all rascals. Even the one word you cannot understand, 'Thou shall not kill.' So what you will understand? Therefore Jesus Christ did not say." Give them this answer. Jesus Christ was perfect, but because you are rascals, he did not say, because you could not understand even his one word. You are so intelligent. His commandment is "Thou shall not kill," but your business is to kill him first. How far you are advanced and civilized, just imagine. And you want perfect instruction. You cannot follow even one instruction. That is your position. In this way try to understand. "Jesus had to deal with rascals like you. Therefore he... Even ordinary moral principles, you could not, what to speak of other things." Actually that is the fact. Actually that is the fact. He had to deal with rascals and fools. Is that civilization, that first of all argue, "Thou shall not kill"? That means you were all rascals engaged in killing business. Is that civilized men? Why he said like that? Is that very good philosophy? Mean they were so low class that they had to be stopped first of all, these sinful activities. That also, they could not. This is their position. And for the last two thousand years they could not. Such nice brain. They could not understand even one instruction of Jesus Christ. And you are proud of becoming Christian, rascals. "You do not know what is Christianity, what is Jesus Christ. You are all rascals." Tell them like that. What do you think?
Prabhupāda: Just like sex life is enjoyment, but a person who is suffering from tuberculosis—his death. He'll die if he indulges in sex life. That is medical science. "So it is condemned in the material world, not in the spiritual world. If you have good health, you can enjoy sex life. But you have tuberculosis? You'll die. Your sex life is death, and their sex life is life. That you cannot understand. You have such a poor brain that you could not follow even ordinary moral instruction of Jesus Christ." Answer should be given like that. "If you remain with your poor brain, don't try to argue. Be satisfied, your poor doggish brain, hoggish brain. You are like pigs and dogs. What you can understand about religion? First of all try to train yourself to be free from the sinful activities. Then you'll understand what is religion." Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam (BG 7.28). Ultimately, a person, sinful man, cannot go to the kingdom of God. Is it not? First of all stop this sex life; then talk of God. It is a fact. When the order of Jesus Christ, "Thou shall not kill," for the last two thousand years the rascals have never stopped killing. They are simply increasing slaughterhouse. And... So they are so poor in understanding, they say animal has no soul.
Gargamuni: (laughs) Say that, yes. We're brainwashing, washing their brain.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And all these rubbish things we are finishing. "Yes, it is brainwashing, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), cleansing the core of the heart, all mistaken ideas." Speak in the court like that. "And see how we are being appreciated by scholarly section. Here is our book. Read if you have got time and see the opinion. It is really brainwashing, but for the good. Everything requires cleansing—for good. If bad impression, bad ideas, are washed, why do you protest? Let it be done. Give us freedom. It is brainwashing, but for the good, washing for good. Just like you wash your cloth. Do you think it is bad? Dirty cloth, if it is washed nicely with soap and water, who will protest against that? 'Oh, why you are cleansing your dirty clothes?' That is another foolishness. Everyone, every gentleman, every civilized man, washes his clothes with soap and water to become more refreshed. So we are giving this civilization... Actually it is brainwashing, but for the good. And see our example. The boys and girls whom you are charging, 'Brainwash,' just see after brainwashing, how gentleman they have become. They have become moralist. They have become God conscious. They are clean outwardly. Their fooding is so innocent and so nutritious. So why do you check it? Bring your plate and our plate. Now judge. Which is better? You taste. Halavā, puri, samosa, kachori, vegetable—one plate; and boiled meat with salt and black pepper... So taste now which is better."
Prabhupāda: Means if they have got strength, if they have got strength they can attack Russia. I've said that. But they have no moral strength. Drunkard, illicit sex, they have no mental determination, cannot.
Rāmeśvara: They are thinking, "Why should we get involved in fighting miles away..."
Prabhupāda: That is another laziness. For good cause one should.
Rāmeśvara: They are thinking, "What if the people want to be Communist? Why should we interfere?"
Prabhupāda: That means cowardice. They have no conviction that Communism is dangerous, godlessness.
Rāmeśvara: They are forgetting how dangerous it is.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They are luscious(?) that... (break) Just like a tuberculosis patient. To him doctor says that "You don't have sex life. That will bring your death." Does it mean sex life is bad? The tuberculosis person, for him it is bad, not for the sane man, not for the healthy man. So when sex life is advised to..., forbidden, that is for the diseased condition. But who is never diseased—he is perfect—for him there is no forbidding of sex life. So you do not understand that in this material condition you are suffering only. You have no brain. Therefore morality, immorality, good, bad, there are so many things. But when one is perfect, healthy, for him all the activities of life is perfect. Just like a physician advised me, "You don't take salt." Does it mean salt is bad? I am in a particular condition of this kidney trouble or liver trouble. For me salt is bad. But does it mean salt bad?
Gurukṛpā: No. It's very good.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, sex life for you is bad, not for Kṛṣṇa. You are thinking Kṛṣṇa like you, mūḍha.
Prabhupāda: Tch tch. Just see.
Gurukṛpā: They feel that if you are not... If you are inhibited in your sex life, if you only choose women, then you are not progressive. You must become liberated from these moral or, they call it, "hang-up" feeling. This is not correct. Now they drive their children to the homosex dance, the parents, and let the boy out, and he goes into the homosex dance. Only men allowed. They take them there.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Gurukṛpā: Yes. In Los Angeles. They have only for boys, young men, age seventeen, sixteen, eighteen, nine... Their parents take them, and they let them out of the car, and they pick them up later on in the night.
Prabhupāda: Advancement.
Gargamuni: In the court they also have no standard. They don't know what moral life is. They think this is normal.
Prabhupāda: At least you should take our books, that "This is our statement. Defense is. You first of all read this; then give your judgment."
Satsvarūpa: One of their biggest charges is that we don't...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. All charges are replied in these books. So you read these books and argue on this. Finish this. Then give judgment. Make this. Make a firm. Bring all these eighty-four books. That is legal! From law point, it is legal. What I have to say, you have to hear. So we have said everything there.
Prabhupāda: And that is the position of disciples. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu was God Himself, and He said that "My Guru Mahārāja saw me a fool rascal number one." Chastisement. That is required. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, a great moral instructor. He has advised, tāḍayen na tu lālayet: "Always chastise them. Otherwise they'll be spoiled."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The intelligent boy knows that, that chastisement is mercy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Devotee (2): The scientists are saying that instead of everything coming from the micro organism, instead of that happening now, that it's coming from man. Life is created from man.
Prabhupāda: Then life is life. Life coming from life.
Prabhupāda: What happened?
Brahmānanda: They have banned our Society and also Guru Maharaj-ji.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And jehovah's Witnesses.
Brahmānanda: Because these societies go against the Argentine culture, morals, and nationhood.
Prabhupāda: So we have to close.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's already closed.
Brahmānanda: And they seized our books.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Books were seized for twenty thousand dollars worth of books.
Brahmānanda: But there has been some reports in the newspapers that Argentina is now a military dictatorship, and it's very bad place. Many people are being taken and shot regularly.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now... But also in Venezuela, there, now the government wants to audit the accounts. They are asking for a public auditing of our books.
Prabhupāda: Public property?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Audit. Audit.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Hari-śauri: Mr. Bannerjee. He was talking about Vivekananda and how our movement is spreading because of our moral strength.
Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda answered each of his points.
Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda said afterwards that he smashed him. (laughter)
Yaśomatī-nandana(?): One is Vivekananda. Another is Gandhi.
Prabhupāda: They have spoiled India's culture. All these... Rabindranath Tagore. All misleaders. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the real leader, and Kṛṣṇa.
Yaśomatī-nandana: And Prabhupāda.
Gargamuni: In the Book Fair there's other... Ramakrishna is there, Aurobindo. They have their books, but no one is going. (Prabhupāda chuckles) They have booths, Ramakrishna Mission, Aurobindo, Yogananda.
Prabhupāda: I don't think they have so many books also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The one who asked the question, "What is the most important thing in life?"
Prabhupāda: No, if our movement is organizedly pushed on, the Rajneesh position will be over. Rajneesh is already finished. He has no place in Bombay.
Guest (1): No, he has been driven out of Bombay. He has gone to Poona because all the hocus-pocus was going on, people were complaining. So on moral ground, he has been shifted to... I mean he had to go to Poona.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why do they let him stay there?
Guest (1): Because the people are not opposing. If they opposed him, he shall have to vacate there also.
Prabhupāda: What about Sai Baba?
Mr. Rajda: As far as this change is concerned, the basic difference is formerly there was no moral code observed by the rulers.
Prabhupāda: It can deteriorate at any moment.
Mr. Rajda: That interpretation is there, that is there.
Prabhupāda: You cannot say...
Mr. Rajda: If the rulers, they have got faith in dharma...
Prabhupāda: They have no faith. That is the difficulty. They talk of God, talk of religion, but they do not know what is God, what is religion. That is going on. You may be or I may be. We do not know what is the identity of the living entity. Then where is the question of religion?
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: English.
Dr. Sharma: I was going to bring to your kind notice, ever since we become independent, our moral fiber is really breaking down. We are spiritually, I think, the..., the deterioration has been very fast after 1947. Somehow this is...
Prabhupāda: This is our so-called leaders misled them. Even Gandhi misled. That Vinobha Bhave is misleading, what to speak of others.
Prabhupāda: All rascals, they...
Dr. Sharma: This is a perfect example of what Prabhupāda is saying, because this is not justified on any account-moral, ethical, medical...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or financial.
Dr. Sharma: Or financial. They only waste their time, and this is, you know, an example of how stubborn man can be, especially the scientists. The real transplant that was done was done by the Lord Śiva when he did transplant of the head of Lord Gaṇeśa. That was the only successful transplant I know of.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we will come back about four or five hours. (speaks to Dr. Sharma about setting up preaching engagements)
Dr. Sharma: (replying to Svarūpa Dāmodara) ...to some of the basic scientists. Some of them have a spiritual background, you know. Just they probably are waiting to meet a person like your background or Mādhava's background. Normally it has come out like this. People talk half-heartedly here, and they don't pursue it, they don't have the conviction to pursue it in this country. Very quickly give up. If I get this idea, then next morning I forget about it, and then whatever... I don't even, you know, I am afraid to talk about it. So you have very boldly come out with this, and so many centuries of tradition is there to back you up. So I think you should pursue it with all your enthusiasm, and with Prabhupāda's blessing you will really go a long way, as I say about it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Only by Prabhupāda's blessings.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you can... Śrīla Prabhupāda, you wanted to ask Dr. Sharma about altitude?
Prabhupāda: Seven thousand feet high altitude, it is good for a person to go there?
Prabhupāda: Later age, yes. That is enjoined. When child is sixteen years old he can do as he likes, not before that.
- lālayet pañca varṣāṇi
- daśa varṣāṇi tāḍayet
- prāpte tu ṣoḍaśe varṣe
- putraṁ mitravad ācaret
This is the moral instruction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Up to five years, don't chastise, don't take any action. Let him be free. Whatever he likes, he can do. Then after fifth year, for ten years you must be very strict. Then five years and ten years, fifteen. And when he is sixteen years, treat him like a friend. Prāpte tu ṣoḍaśe varṣe putraṁ mitravad ācaret. At that time, no stricture that he will break. "My dear boy, if you do this..." This is necessary. And from fifth year to fifteenth year you should chastise the sons and disciples just like tiger. After five years.
Prabhupāda: Then that television speech must be out in the paper.
Girirāja: Yes, it must have been reported this morning. I mean he is representing a return to the more traditional standards of morality and culture of India.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that they are going to replace this family planning with yoga. Instead of using artificial means, they're going to teach yoga.
Prabhupāda: To become brahmacārī.
Girirāja: The minister of health and family planning, he said, he denied, that "This name should be changed to just minister of health, because this type of family planning is against the traditional values of India."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is totally against it. It's Western, the whole Western conception.
Girirāja: Actually, a short time ago, everyone knew that these things were wrong, but now they are trying to pretend that it is not wrong. They are trying to forget.
Prabhupāda: They can do, all their political divisions. These rascals, they can do. Anything. They have no principles, no morality, no standard of morality, nothing. Simply all rogues and thieves. It will more and more. All rogues and thieves will take part in politics. That is stated. Dasyu dharmeṇa. Just like dasyu, the burglar, the thieves, they have got organization how to get money. So they, the government, they'll be rogues and thieves. And whenever there is necessity of money, then tax. You work hard; they will tax. Organized burglars, organized guṇḍās. And Indira was doing that. Indira and company. Take the power and club(?) them and do whatever you like. She is a prostitute; her son is a guṇḍā. This is the sample of the... But it will be done all round the world. This is a sample of that.
Prabhupāda: ...always studying, for the last ten years. It is my conclusion that originally everything Indian, that is very, very high grade—for human society, for personal. That is actual human civilization. Everything, hygienic principles, Vedic knowledge, moral knowledge, everything perfect.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm going to tell them to... It's good to take rest now.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Otherwise it will increase. In your sickness, if you go on working, it will increase. Better take rest.
Devotee: Ginger, and keep warm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night you were translating a little bit.
Prabhupāda: I began, but...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You stopped.
Prabhupāda: No, stopped not for my incapability, but I stopped it feeling sleepy.
Prabhupāda: They don't mind. "We must have mangoes." Money is very insignificant thing. Gold is the... And as soon as there is enough money, there is debauch, debauchery. Still there are Oriental moral principles. Girls who have become modernized... Otherwise they do not mix with any man. Their husband, that's all. And covered body, they are, very beautiful girl. And those who have become modernized, they are just like European girls. There is no difficulty to become modernized. They have got money. And they tour from one country to another extensively. Formerly for Muhammadans, drinking was the greatest sin. Now it has become... Drinking is strictly prohibited amongst the Muhammadans, according to their religious system. And sex? Before Muhammadan religion was introduced, they used to have sex even with mother. And woman could be purchased as slaves. Marketplace, women were standing for being sold. They would like to be sold. Just like animals. The animals, if somebody purchases, it is, if they are well fed, it is a great fortune for the animals. Just like the dogs here.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When this philosophy is reversed, then life becomes full of meaning and full of purpose. Actually that is a fact. We give value to life. That's why we go to the... We send our children for higher studies and we develop so many political and social and ethical and moral problems. That means there is purpose in life. So life is not void. But somehow, when one misses that point, he just comes to that point. But that's not a fact. So it has to be understood that there is... Life is full of meaning and full of purpose, and there is a goal behind it. That purpose is to develop spiritual consciousness, to develop the science of ātmā called ātma-jñāna, the science of the self, and becomes... Life becomes meaningful.
Prabhupāda: That is the statement in Bhāgavata, apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). Gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām, they dismiss the case because apaśyatām ātma-tattvam (SB 2.1.2). Just like thieves: "Eh! What is government? What is government? Let us enjoy." That's not the fact. So we have to put all these questions before learned scholars and ask them to make a solution. (Bengali) Why zero?
Harikeśa: In other words, no matter what they come up with, what ideas they come up with, what knowledge they have, it's of no value because it doesn't...
Prabhupāda: Their knowledge has no value. That is our first charge.
Prabhupāda: That is required. But it will be a failure unless they are taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That... Gandhi's failure was there. He did not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because the material civilization means pravṛtti-mārga, and spiritual civilization nivṛtti-mārga. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalām. So pravṛtti... Suppose he is in the village. He has to work with plow. And in the city, Goodyear Tire Company offering him twenty rupees per day. So he'll see that "What is the use of working with this plow? Let me go to Goodyear Tire." Then here the business will be finished. That is the position of India. So much land is lying vacant because there is no worker, and all the rascals have gone to New Delhi or big cities. And overpopulation? "Give them sterilization." Here there is no men to work and they're sterilization... How the leaders... And who is leader? Another debauch number one, Gandhi, Mrs.... And she has produced a Sanjay Gandhi. Very precarious si... So there will be no scarcity of simple living and eating. We shall give nice food, milk, and place. So bring student and teach them. Then gradually increase. They will preach throughout the whole world. The defect of the society, modern—the rascals are worshiped. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given all in his moral instructions.
| Page Title: | Morality (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 12 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=140, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 140 |