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Material elements (Conversations)

Expressions researched:
"five basic elements" |"five element" |"five elements" |"five great elements" |"five gross elements" |"five material elements" |"five primary elements" |"five principal elements" |"material element" |"material elements"

Conversations and Morning Walks

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Prabhupada Comments on Prahlada Maharaja Slides - August 25, 1968, Montreal:
Prabhupāda: So there is difference of interest. I want to be lord, you want to be lord: now there must be fight. But in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is one Lord and all others servitors. Therefore there is peace. So fighting was not possible in the Vaikuṇṭha world; therefore these two doorkeepers were sent to the material world by the plan of the Supreme Lord so that they could fight as Hiraṇyakaśipu and Hiraṇyākṣa with the Lord. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Now the spiritual spark is entering into the material world, penetrating seven layers. This is called avyakta, nonmanifested. Just like in the sky there are nonmanifested and manifested things. If you go high, some 25,000, fifty thousand miles up, you'll simply find in the sky nothing manifested. But if you go still higher, higher, higher, you will find some other planets existing. So the part which is nonmanifested is called avyakta, and the part which is manifested, that is called vyakta. So these two souls from Vaikuṇṭha, they are coming into this material world. So they're penetrating the nonmanifested matter. As the matter... Five elements—earth, water, fire, air, ether. And then... These are gross elements. And there are subtle elements: mind, intelligence, ego. And then spiritual. Our body is composed of three things—the spirit soul, and it is covered by subtle body: mind, intelligence ego; and there is gross body: fire, water... earth, water, fire, air, ether. So this universe, this universe is only one universe, but there are millions of universes, and they are covered with the gross and subtle elements. And penetrating that gross and subtle elements, when one comes to the sky, there are innumerable planets.
Interview with LA Times Reporter About Moon Trip -- December 26, 1968, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Excuse me.

Reporter: Okay, thank you. Thank you. (door closes)

Hayagrīva: Their bodies are subtle bodies. They're not like gross bodies.

Prabhupāda: Just like... You try to understand me, that this matter, consisting of five elements, earth, air; earth, water, air...earth, water, fire, air, ether. And then, still subtler than ether is the mind, and then, subtler than the mind is intelligence, and subtler than intelligence is the spirit soul. So before we reach our spiritual platform, there are so many elementary material platforms. So in different planets one of the element is prominent. Just like we can experience in the ocean and sea the water is prominent. In the land earth is prominent. Similarly, in different, just like in the sun planet fire is prominent. So in each and every planet there are particular type of body, particular type of residents. You cannot expect that the same type of body and same type of residents are there.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- July 18, 1971, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: We require help from personalities like you, because it is very important movement, checking a great mistake in the modern world. Modern civilization is very risky. Risky in this sense: that the human form of life is an opportunity for self-realization, but our leaders, they are miseducating that "You are this body." A basic mistake. But I am not this body, but just like you are sitting there, if I take account of your shirt and coat only, not you as a person, then there is a great mistake. Similarly, the modern civilization, education, everything is based on this bodily concept of life. But actually we are not body. Body is my shirt and coat. Mind, intelligence and ego, that is the shirt, finer dress. And this five element body—earth, water, fire, air, ether—this is gross. Just like shirt and coat. Similarly, we are dressed, the spirit soul. The spirit soul is also a measure one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very important in this sense, that they are trying to bring people to the constitutional position. A living entity is transmigrating from one body to another, as well in our present body also, we are transmigrating. In my childhood I had a small body. That body is no longer existing, but I am existing. So there is no reason to believe that when I give up this body, I'll not exist. No. I shall exist, but in another body. So people are not interested to make the research work how the soul is working. This is ignorance. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to revive the pure consciousness of the human society so that he can know himself and act accordingly. Then his life is successful.

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: You have raised that "I cannot understand." What is the difficulty to understand?

Reporter: I mean to be able to actually live it, day to day, like.

Prabhupāda: This is a question of... Even suppose Kṛṣṇa says, "This beautiful flower I am." So you are seeing this beautiful flower. So why do you not understand if Kṛṣṇa says like that? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ buddhiḥ manaḥ eva ca bhinnā me prakṛtiḥ aṣṭadhā: (BG 7.4) "These eight (indistinct), eight kinds of material elements, they are My energy." So you are sitting on the ground, bhūmiḥ, so if you understand that it is one of the energy of Kṛṣṇa.... Just like the electric fan is running on, everyone knows there is electric energy. Similarly, if you see the ground, bhūmiḥ, as expansion of Kṛṣṇa's energy, what is the difficulty? Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vayuḥ.

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: It is very easy to... Sir, what is difficult to...

Prabhupāda: I do not know what is the difficulty. (Hindi)

Reporter: (Hindi) (laughter)

Prabhupāda: It is very simple, you see. Actually one who does not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, for the neophyte, the prescription is there, that "You understand Kṛṣṇa like this." Because you are dealing with bhūmiḥ, you are dealing with water, you are dealing

with fire, you are dealing with air, you are dealing with sky, you are dealing with mind, you are dealing with intelligence. You are dealing with all these things. Well, Kṛṣṇa says, "They are display of My energy." And then again says apareyam: "These energies are inferior," itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām, "and there is another energy superior." What is that? Jīva-bhūta, the living entity, mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). So what is the difficulty? I do not understand. He is explaining everything in the Bhagavad-gītā. Simply we have to take it as it is. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am this," and if you say, "No, Kṛṣṇa is not like this," so that is your nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am this." If you want to understand, just like if you want to understand me, I say that "I am a sannyāsī, I am a preacher," and if you say, "No, you are not a preacher," then how you can understand? I am giving my identification that "I am this." So you have to understand. You are writing also, understanding like that. So why do you deny it when Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the origin. This is My energy"? What is the reason you deny it? What is the reason?

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Kenneth Keating, U.S. Ambassador to India -- October 14, 1972, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: This is the right... Another definition is God, God is all-attractive. Now, if you try to understand what is this attractiveness, just like your American country is very opulent, very attractive. If a man is very rich in the society, he is attractive. Then if a man is very strong, then he is attractive. If a man is very famous, he is attractive. If a man-man or woman—if a man is very beautiful, he is attractive. If a man is in the renounced order, he is attractive. If a man is very wise, he is attractive. These six features are attractive features. Now, these attractive features, every one of us have to some extent. Just like you are ambassador, representative of USA, so you are attractive. So this attractiveness you have got. Sometimes I have also got. Somebody comes to me, "Let me see this Swami speak," you see. So this attractiveness everyone possesses. But God means who has got all the attractiveness in full. That is God. You may be very rich, but you cannot say that "I am the richest person in the world." That is not possible. But God can say "I am the richest person in the whole creation." Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He says, "I am the proprietor of everything." Just like in America, before the Europeans migrated to America, the land was there. It belonged to somebody. Now you are claiming you are proprietor. Say after five hundred years or something somebody may come. The land is there, we come here for the time being and claim "It is my property." But actually who is the proprietor? Actually God is the proprietor. Therefore anything produced out of the land, that is also property of God. Just like if you have got a gold mine in your country. So I am not.... India will not go to claim that "It is my property." It is your property, because it is produced with your land. So if the whole land, whole sky, whole air, whole light, everything belongs to God, then where is your proprietorship? It is stated, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ buddhiḥ mano eva (BG 7.4). Now, nobody can say "The sky is my property," but there must be some proprietor of the sky. What do you think? If everything has got a proprietor, everything is made of these five elements—sky, water, air, earth....

Śyāmasundara: Fire.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: Fire.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- April 28, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Can we hear a little bit from the Sāṅkhya philosophy?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sāṅkhya philosophy of Lord Kapiladeva? The creative elements.

Prabhupāda: Sāṅkhya philosophy is also analysis of the material elements. That's all. Your scientific research is also sāṅkhya philosophy. Sāṅ, sāṅkhya, it comes from the word, "saṅ-khyā".

Svarūpa Dāmodara: To count?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Count, count. That's all. Analytically. What are the ingredients? Analytical studies. That is called saṅ-khyā, count. Suppose you take this sand. You count. It is called sāṅkhya. So, from the saṅkhyā, the word, it comes sāṅkhya, knowing analytically. This is sāṅkhya philosophy. So you are also sāṅkhya philosopher. Everyone is sāṅkhya philosopher. We are also sāṅkhya philosopher. Because we are counting the material elements, as Kṛṣṇa says: bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). We are analyzing: "This is land, this is water, this is air, this is sunshine, fire." Then I am counting with my mind, intelligence, ego. And further, I do not know. Kṛṣṇa says: "There is further." That is the living force. That they do not know. They are thinking: "Life is combination of these matters." But Kṛṣṇa says: "No." Apareyam. This is inferior. The superior energy is living entity. So we are also sāṅkhya philosopher. But we are taking direction from Kṛṣṇa, and they're making their own attempt. That is the difference. They're depending on their own intelligence. We don't depend on my own intelligence. We depend on Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. That is the difference. Then, if Kṛṣṇa is perfect, then my intelligence is perfect. I may be not perfect, but because I take Kṛṣṇa's intelligence, therefore I'm perfect.

Morning Walk -- April 28, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...are also described in the sāṅkhya philosophy?

Prabhupāda: They do not know superior energy. They, they simply analyze the material energy, just you are doing. You do not know. The scientists, they do not know that there is spirit soul. Is it? Do they know?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.

Prabhupāda: So similarly the sāṅkhya philosophy also, they do not know what is spirit soul. Simply they're analyzing the material.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So just the creative material elements?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Material elements are not creative. Creative is the soul. Just like you make something with matter. Matter does not create itself. You living entity, you take them, hydrogen, oxygen, mix them, and becomes water. So matter it, itself, has no creative energy. You keep here one bottle of hydrogen and... Will they make water? Will they make?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hydrogen, oxygen?

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you keep here hydrogen bottle, oxygen. Will the combination come in contact?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Unless it is not mixed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you require a superior energy. This is inferior energy, and the superior energy comes, mixes. Then the fact is there. The inferior energy has no power unless the superior energy tackles. Just like this sea will remain calm and quiet. But another superior, air, when it pushes, it becomes high waves. It has no power. Another superior... Similarly another superior, another superior, another superior. So ultimately Kṛṣṇa, the most superior. This is research. These waves are not moving by itself. Although the vast mass of water is there. When the superior energy, air, pushes it, it becomes big waves.

Morning Walk -- April 28, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So who is giving the pushing? The living entity, driver. A big truck is being pushed: kata kak kata kak kata kak kata kak, one after another. Similarly the whole creation, Kṛṣṇa is giving the pushing. Then one after another, one after another, one after another working. You see. mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). That is stated in the Bha... mayādhyakṣeṇa. Kṛṣṇa gives the pushing first. Then everything comes, one after another. But His pushing capacity is so perfect that everything is coming out perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect. Just like Kṛṣṇa says: bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (Bg 7.10). "I am the seed of everything created." Now take the seed of the banyan tree. Kṛṣṇa has created. He says, "I am the seed." Now you sow the seed. A big tree will come out. Big tree will come out. Not only big tree. Many millions of seeds will come out of it. And each seed, again big tree. So the original seed, Kṛṣṇa, pushes. Then one after another, one after another, one after another... So you are simply observing when the things are coming into existence by such pushing. But you are trying out, trying to find out who is the original pusher. That you do not know. That you do not know. Who has originally pushed this energy? That you do not know.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the material elements...

Prabhupāda: You are simply observing the immediate cause. You do not know what is the remote cause. There are two causes, immediate cause and remote cause. Another call: "Efficient cause and..."? The two words?

Brahmānanda: Efficient cause is the ultimate.

Prabhupāda: No, remote cause.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The remote cause is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1). Vedic literature: sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam. The cause of all causes. That is remote cause. Therefore if you understand the sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes, then you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you know the original cause, the later, subordinate causes, you know. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). You do not know the original cause, and when we say... "We say" means when the Vedas says: "Here is the original cause," you won't take it. Although you are searching after the original cause. Is it not? But when Veda,... Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. But when gives you: "Here is the original cause." You won't take. You shall stick to your imperfect knowledge. This is your disease. Is it not a disease?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Morning Walk -- May 9, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, I am convinced.

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you write in scientific language. All these material elements have come from life. Not that from material elements, life has come. No. That is not the fact. Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, "Everything from Me." But Kṛṣṇa is life. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8), janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So... And bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4). So many informations are there. Me, "Mine," "I am," like that. So He is life. Our God is not dead. Our God is life, living, just like us, one of us. But He is more powerful. That's it. Our God eats, sleeps, like us, just like we eat, sleep. The difference is that He eats, but He keeps the thing as it is.

Kṛṣṇa-Kāntī: Oṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation).

Prabhupāda: Yes. And we eat, we finish. And we cannot again produce. God's power is like that, that He eats, at the same, keeps everything intact for your eating. And I, if you give me a plate, I eat and there is nothing for you. That is difference. He also eats. Otherwise we are making all these bogus things, preparing so many nice things, offering to God? Is that false?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Material is already there. Just like what you are manufacturing. You are... Already everything is there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the chemists or the scientists, what they're thinking is, there are chemical elements, which are the materials necessary for staying the spirit soul within the..., so long as he is within the material world. So they're saying that these material elements—carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen—the main elements, somehow they combine together forming the living units, but our point is the chemicals are there, but in order to start the real nice house, the spirit soul has to enter within these chemical elements.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These chemical elements will already help him, by nature's way. Just like you put a seed on the earth. So other things necessary for fructifying that seed, that is already there. They will come to help it. That is already there. Just like the living entity in seed form is impregnated within the womb of the mother. The mother has got within the womb all ingredients. Body will develop. On account of the presence of the living entity, by the laws of nature, everything is there. A dog is forming dog's body, man is forming man's body. Why? Because everything is there. A cat is forming cat's body in the womb of the... Yathā yonir yathā bījam. You haven't got to search out. It is already there.

Room Conversation With Three College Students -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtani na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Although you do not find Kṛṣṇa in somewhere, but His energy is acting, there. So one who has eyes to see how Kṛṣṇa's energy is acting, he sees Kṛṣṇa. Same example. Because the Prime Minister's energy is working in that office, so the Prime Minister is there present. So everything is demonstration of the energy. Just like you are in the room, you have not seen the sun, but as soon as the sunshine is there, you know that sun is there. You see the sun through the sunshine, although it is not that sun has come into your room. The sunshine, coming of the sunshine within your room, is sufficient knowledge to know that here is sun. Sun is there. That is the Vedic statement, that you can understand there is fire when there is heat. If there is light and heat, then you can understand there is fire. That heat and light is sufficient, now, what is the heat and light? This is energy of the fire. So when Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "These material elements," bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4), earth, water, fire, air, they are My energies, so if one has studied Kṛṣṇa, then as soon as He sees a great ocean, He sees Kṛṣṇa: "Oh, this is Kṛṣṇa's energy." As soon as sees a big anything, fire, water, anything, He sees Kṛṣṇa, nothing but Kṛṣṇa because He knows. Exactly in the same way, as soon as you feel heat, you know that there is fire. You don't require to see the fire. But if you feel, "Oh it is hot, oh, there must be fire." This is studying Kṛṣṇa. And this is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to feel the presence of Kṛṣṇa everywhere. So everything requires training, undergoing the process. Then it is possible. It is not impossible. So if you also go, the training, the process, you'll also understand. It is not difficult.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Father Tanner: And could that go on and on forever, his not desiring?

Prabhupāda: Well, how can I say? You have got independence of desire and not to desire. That depends on you. If you never desire, then you continue, perpetually, material life. But there is chance.

Father Tanner: Now, taking that person, when material things cease, what happens to him?

Prabhupāda: Material things, material and spiritual, the living entities, they are spiritual, and the material elements, earth, water, fire, they are also material energy. There are two kinds of energies. Why two kinds? Three kinds of energies. Just like fire has got two kinds of energies, heat and light, similarly, God has got multi-energies. All those multi-energies have been divided into three. One is called internal, another is called external, and the third is called marginal. So this material world is manifestation of the external and marginal energy. So when the material world ceases to exist or it is dissolved, annihilated, so energy goes back to God. It goes back. Again, when there is creation, the same energy creates. The marginal energy, by the marginal energy and external energy. This is going on. Just like day and night, it is going on. At daytime people are busy. This is creation. At night everyone is sleeping. Similarly, when there is creation, these activities are going on. When there is no creation, it is night, everyone is sleeping.

Room Conversation with Lord Brockway -- July 23, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So work is required. But godly persons, they want to live a simple life and high thinking, save time for understanding of God. The demonic people, they are engaged in horrible activities. They have manufactured so many things. So in this way... There are so many descriptions. Actually, by the increase of demoniac people, people are not very happy, and they are missing the ultimate goal of life. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They do not believe that there is an ultimate goal of life, there is life after death, and what kind of body he's going to get next. These things are not, neither in the university education curriculum, neither people are interested. So at the present moment... This is called Kali-yuga. So people are being misled. Actually, the human being, the form of human life, is distinct from animal life. So if we live like animals, then we are missing the chance. At the present moment, this is the position. So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement strictly on the basis of this Bhagavad-gītā. In the Bhagavad-gītā, there is everything explained. So if people take to it, if people are educated, then things will change in a different way. They'll be happy and they will be peaceful, nice. And above, over and above them, they will have next life very blissful, full of knowledge, and eternal. Yad gatvā na nivarta... These things are all very nicely explained. There is eternal life. There is another nature. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). This is material nature, but there is another, spiritual nature. There everything is permanent. Here everything is non-permanent. Just like my body, your body. It is now getting older. And it will vanquish. This body will be finished. It will never come again back. Never come. This exactly type of this body you'll never get. So we have to accept another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ. It is exemplified just like we change our shirt and coat and take another set, similarly, this gross body, material gross body, five elements, earth, water, air, fire, sky, and then mind, intelligence, ego, subtle body, within that subtle body the soul is there, and after annihilation of this gross body, the subtle body takes to another gross body. The nature is going on like that. And we are wandering in different species of life, in different planets. But our real purpose is God-realization. That we are missing.

Room Conversation with Graham Hill Former World Champion Race Car Driver -- London, August 26, 1973:

Graham Hill: So by our behavior (indistinct) will determine what sort of body we will get when we return?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like if you are educating your son for future life. So according to his education, according to his qualification, his future life will be fixed up. If he is properly educated he can become a very big man. And if he is not, he may not become. So this life is preparation for the next life. So this human form of life, if we are advanced in our consciousness then we should try to get our next life going back to home, back to Godhead. This...

yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā
yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām
(BG 9.25)

Find out this verse.

Śyāmasundara: There is no more body? No more body?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, this body you have got. Just like this hat and coat, vasamsi, this is covering of your body. So you have got already your spiritual body.

Śyāmasundara: Spiritual body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is now covered by this material element. So emancipation or salvation means you no more get your material body. But your body is already there. Just like in this body, I have got my body. And because I have got a hand my dress has got a hand. Because I have got a leg, my pant has got a leg. So this superficial, external body is simply covering of your original body. The original body is spiritual. So go back to home back to Godhead means you remain in your original spiritual body. You get freedom from this covering of material body. Now that spiritual body you can transfer to so many ways.

Room Conversation -- September 1, 1973, London:

Śrutakīrti: Goloka Vṛndāvana, are there still varieties he said.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. There are varieties. Ānanda, ānanda, pleasure means varieties. Variety is the mother of enjoyment. Without varieties, just like we prepare from grains, sugar, ghee, hundreds of varieties. If you simply give grain, ghee and sugar, it will not be enjoyable. But the same thing, you prepare in varieties and give you a plate, oh, you'll say, "Oh, so nice thing." The ingredients are the same. Grains, ghee and sugar, that's all. Similarly, this material world, the ingredients are the same. Namely five gross elements and three subtle elements, finer. Earth, water, air, fire, sky. These are gross elements. And mind, intelligence, ego these are finer elements. Combined together this material world has come. The brain behind is a living entity. Just like we are using these ingredients, these five elements: earth, water, air, fire, sky, making this building, making this table, making this chair, vase, so many things, harmonium, pictures, book. So the ingredients are the same, but my brain is working in different varieties. My brain or your brain. Human brain. Similarly this material cosmic manifestation is full of varieties. The brain behind it is Kṛṣṇa. That is stated, you have read our Bhagavad-gītā?

Guest: I've taken a look.

Room Conversation -- September 1, 1973, London:

Guest: And inside these people doing this work, is it Kṛṣṇa? Or what is it makes them do the work?

Prabhupāda: No. The soul is a living being. So nature is supplying material and he's molding in different forms. Just like earth is not man's creation. Earth is God's creation, or it is product of God's energy. But we are using this earth and molding in different forms, different pots, different dolls. So ingredients are supplied by God. Nature means God's energy. We simply handle them. We cannot produce anything, we transform only. Just like this iron, we cannot produce iron. It is gotten from the mine, iron bar. Now we have transformed into different forms. Because we have got creative energy like God, not very great, in very minute quantity. So as God has created by His intelligence, the whole universe—we are creating this table, this pillow, this harmonium—that's all. What you are finding?

Śrutakīrti: I was just looking at that verse again.

Prabhupāda: Which verse?

Śrutakīrti: Mayādhyakṣeṇa...

Prabhupāda: Oh.

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
sūyate sa-carācaram
hetunānena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
(BG 9.10)

The Bhagavad-gītā is the perfect information of everything. One has to study carefully, that's all. It is perfect information. And you can accept it with your good logic. Not that blindly you accept. Now just like Kṛṣṇa says: "The material elements are My energy." Now you can consider, you can argue, you can make argument, you'll come to the conclusion. Just like material elements, water, the vast water. The ocean, Atlantic Ocean, vast water. So it is created by God's energy. How can you explain with your argument? Because it is said there, Kṛṣṇa says, that "This is My energy." Now, if you accept it, it is all right. But if you have got hesitation, what is your reason?

Room Conversation -- September 1, 1973, London:

Guest: Hmm. And ah, this inside, it grows because of Kṛṣṇa does it?

Prabhupāda: Everything is growing on account of Kṛṣṇa. Your body, inside or outside, it is made of these five elements: earth, water, air, fire, like that. It is nothing but combination of these five elements.

Guest: Is the water inside the same as the water in the ocean?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: It's the same water.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You... Have you tasted ever perspiration?

Guest: Hmm?

Prabhupāda: Perspiration, have you tasted?

Guest: Tasted it, yes, salt.

Prabhupāda: Salt, yes.

Guest: Ocean, yes.

Prabhupāda: It has got.

Guest: But one ocean is not the same as another eh? My business is mathematics. It's not very transcendental.

Prabhupāda: You are teacher?

Guest: No, not anymore. It's not very transcendental.

Śrutakīrti: He's asking if his business is transcendental.

Prabhupāda: No, if it is used for Kṛṣṇa, then it is transcendental. If it is used for your sense gratification, then it is material. That is the difference.

Morning Walk -- December 4, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: (laughs)

Karandhara: That's just material generation.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I have already said there is an idea that even in the insignificant material element we find this, that one is lost, another's grown. (break) So when the Supreme Absolute Truth is there, how much potency? That is explained in the Vedas. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Iso Invocation). This is the idea of the Absolute. You take the complete from the complete, still it is complete.

Yaśomatīnandana: They are so foolish that they have accepted an entity called infinity for the material purposes, from mathematics and everything, and they know that they are limited, but they will not accept that that can be a living entity which is infinite. They can accept that there's a new number called infinity, but they can't understand that there can be a living entity which is infinite too.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That number is matter. Living entity is always superior. So if in the inferior quality, matter, it is possible, how much it is possible in the superior quality.

Yaśomatīnandana: And they also admit that they're limited, they also admit that they are fallible, so they also...

Prabhupāda: Because it is matter, it is limited, always limited. Although it appears unlimited.

Morning Walk -- December 4, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Iso Invocation).

Devotee (2): Doesn't it rest in Viṣṇu's body?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee (2): When the material world is annihilated, it still is there, is it not?

Hṛdayānanda: That's in the Bhagavad-gītā, the five elements are all eternal...

Yaśomatīnandana: I understand that the process is eternal, Prabhupāda said.

Devotee (2): No, no, no, the five elements are eternal.

Yaśomatīnandana: ...each universe...

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Devotee (2): The five elements are eternal.

Prabhupāda: Eternal, but it is manifested and not manifested. Just like conservation of energy. That is the... Energy is manifested, sometimes not manifested. (break) But nonmanifested does not mean that... (break) ...energy.

Karandhara: But the definition of the Absolute Truth is inconceivable, so it must violate the logic.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Karandhara: Their logic...

Prabhupāda: No, it's inconceivable by them, not by us. Therefore we call them fools. It is not inconceivable by us. But so you know the Truth from the Truth, Absolute Truth. A layman or a foolish boy does not know where..., which side the sun will rise. His father can say, "This side it will rise." That is the difference. Because he knows how to suggest which side, because there is reddish, how do you say? Illumination. He knows that "This side it will rise," by the symptom. Both of them, the foolish man and the intelligent man, just at present do not see that where is the sun. But the intelligent man knows "Here is the sun," although the sun is not visible both to the intelligent and foolish man. That intelligence means he knows how to find out where is sun. That is intelligence. And this is not discovery. I am intelligent speaking "This side is sun." It is not my discovery. I have heard from authority that from the eastern direction the sun rises, so I know it.

Morning Walk -- December 17, 1973, Los Angeles:

Rūpānuga: They say that "Life as we know it here does not exist." Human life.

Prabhupāda: No, how you can say so? The condition is the same. Every planet is made of earth, water, air, fire, the five elements. So if under these condition there are living entities in this planet, why not in that condition living entities in other planets? That is their ignorance. That is their bluff. The different condition of the planets is that some planet is fiery, some planet is gaseous, some planet is watery. That may be, but after all, they are made of these five elements. And each element, we find there is living entity. So it may be mixture or pure, there must be living entities. And in Bhagavad-gītā it is said sarva-ga. Even in the fire there is living entities. And why not? If living entities can stay in water, why not in fire?

Rūpānuga: On the sun planet.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. There are also living entities. They are very glowing, fiery. Therefore the whole sun planet is glowing.

Rūpānuga: By their bodily light.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is only one sun planet, and in Vaikuṇṭha all the planets are like sun. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, na tad bhāsayate sūryo na śaśāṅko na pāvakaḥ (BG 15.6). There is no necessity of electricity or moonlight or sunlight. Here it is necessity because here only glowing planet is the sun. But in the Vaikuṇṭha, each and every planet is glowing. Therefore there is no need of sun. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Na tad bhāsayate sūryaḥ. There is no necessity of illumination of sun, moon or electricity.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 18, 1974, Hawaii:

Prabhupāda: Then so much control, that is another thing. But not control. "So much control" means no control. (japa) (break) ...admitted that we are controlled by nature. That you cannot refuse. That is foolishness. Now, next, how nature is working? That is also replied in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: (BG 9.10) "The material nature is working..." Just like we are also taking the advantage of material nature, kṣity-ap-tejaḥ. Here is earth, but we can take this earth and make into brick and make a skyscraper building. So it is not that the earth itself is going to become a skyscraper building. I am living entity; I am utilizing. So nature means these five elements, eight elements. So that has been manipulated by another living entity. Just like the aeroplane is a combination of some matter, but it is being worked out by the manufacturer, by the pilot. Therefore that driver of the aeroplane or the manufacturer of the..., he's superior. So superior to the material nature is Kṛṣṇa. This is the conclusion. (break) ...our position is that we are being controlled by the material nature, and, and nature, material nature, is controlled by Kṛṣṇa. So the sense is that one who is at all sensible, that "After all, the controller is Kṛṣṇa. So why not directly under control of Kṛṣṇa?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why through the material nature? I have to be controlled. I am being controlled by the material nature; and material nature is being controlled by Kṛṣṇa. So why not being directly controlled? This is good sense.

Morning Walk -- February 17, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: You see, I can...

Prabhupāda: It is not that mādhurya-bhakta is greater than the dāsya-bhakta. The example has been given: just like sound. Sound is generated from the ether, sky. You are scientific man. You will understand.

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: But that sound is existing in all other five elements, four elements.

Dr. Patel: Right.

Prabhupāda: The sound is not only in the ether, but sound is on the air. The sound is in the fire, the sound is also in the water, and sound is also on the land. So the basic principle of śānta-rasa is there.

Dr. Patel: In all of them.

Prabhupāda: All of them. But according to the position, it is more developed.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You see? In the earth, this sound is very... Just like you take any earthly object, metal. The sound is very strong there. Is it not?

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Morning Walk -- March 30, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But you cannot falsely claim that "I am Paramātmā," or "I am God." Whether you have got this all-pervading knowledge? This is the only test to the pretenders that he is God, he is Paramātmā.

Dr. Patel: But that is... They will say that kṣetra-jña, not kṣetra. Mahā-bhūtāny ahaṅkāro buddhir avyaktam eva...

Prabhupāda: Now he comes to the material elements.

Dr. Patel: Icchā dveṣaḥ sukhaṁ duḥkhaṁ...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... That is...

Dr. Patel: Why they should be in add great...? I don't understand that.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Dr. Patel: These are all mahā-bhūtāny ahaṅkāra buddhiḥ...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: But icchā dveṣaḥ...

Prabhupāda: Icchā... The... (break) Mind is also material.

Dr. Patel: Saṅghātaś cetanā dhṛtiḥ.

Prabhupāda: Now, yes. Cetanā, intelligence, everything, everything. These are all... These are all material.

Dr. Patel: That is, what do you call, the liṅga-śarīra.

Prabhupāda: But the... Some foolish people accept the intelligence, mind, as spirit.

Morning Walk -- March 30, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Just like this Dayānanda, he did not care for anyone. He became ācārya. He started.

Chandobhai: As I understand, or I am given to understand is that... (break) ...they accepted it...

Prabhupāda: The... (break) That is not required now. For the time being. That is not required now. (break)

Dr. Patel: ...bhāvam eka-stham anupaśyati, tata eva ca vistāraṁ brahma sampadyate tadā (BG 13.31).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because... Just these elements, material elements, bhūta, they are Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore one who knows Kṛṣṇa, he does not take anything as material. Because it is Kṛṣṇa's energy. So Kṛṣṇa's energy means... What is called?

Dr. Shah: Property.

Prabhupāda: No, there is a verse. Śakti-śaktimator abhedaḥ. Abhedaḥ. Śakti means energy, and the śaktimān... That... śaktimān is called śaktimat. So because it comes from the śaktimān, śaktimān, the all spirit, therefore those who are very advanced devotees, for, in their vision, there is nothing material.

Chandobhai: There is no separation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is nothing. Abheda. Because it is admitted that bhinnā prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. So this is śakti. And śaktimat is Kṛṣṇa. So when it is emanating from Kṛṣṇa... Therefore it is called inferior. Inferior. Inferior.

Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Jñāna means theoretical knowledge, and vijñāna means practical knowledge. Simply to know "God is great," that is not sufficient.

Guest (1): No, that is theoretical.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is theoretical. You must know how great He is. That we have to learn from the śāstras, from the guru, how great He is. Just like in the Brahma-saṁhitā, Vedic, yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante. He's the source of all material elements. In Him everything stays, and after annihilation, everything goes into Him. This is one understanding. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13).

Mr. Sar: Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān.

Prabhupāda: In this way, from Vedas, from guru, from saintly persons, we have to understand. Sādhu guru śāstra vākya. Sādhu means who speaks strictly on the śāstra. Guru also speaks strictly on śāstra. Śāstra is the medium. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhim avāpno... (BG 16.23). Therefore we protest. Unless there is something mentioned in the authorized śāstras we don't accept it.

Guest (1): Is it nityaḥ anityānām or nityaḥ nityānām?

Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānām. Plural number.

Dr. Patel: Plural, yes.

Guest (1): No, no, that's right.

Prabhupāda: Plural number.

Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Soul is also prakṛti. Soul is not puruṣa. The Māyāvādīs, they consider soul as puruṣa. But it is spoken in the Bhagavad-gītā as prakṛti. Prakṛti... Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho (BG 7.5). Jīva-bhūtā, the soul which is now covered with this material body is called jīva-bhūtā.

Mr. Sar: Apareyam itas tv anyāt.

Prabhupāda: So therefore it is decided that both these material elements and the soul, both of them are prakṛtis. One is superior; another is inferior.

Dr. Patel: Aparā prakṛti is soul.

Mr. Sar: No, no,...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Aparā is matter.

Prabhupāda: Matter, yes.

Dr. Patel: The para...

Mr. Sar: The para is the soul.

Prabhupāda: Para is the soul.

Mr. Sar: Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho. That is also prakṛti word.

Dr. Patel: Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5).

Prabhupāda: And... No, no. What is the...? What is the proof of the soul? Now, yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat. One who is working with this inferior energy. Just like I am working with this body.

Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay:

Mr. Sar: Matta eveti tān viddhi na tv ahaṁ teṣu te mayi.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: And all the three modes of nature also is.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They are also... As the material elements coming from Kṛṣṇa, these guṇas also coming from Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa is not there.

Mr. Sar: He's above that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Sar: None of the guṇas are there.

Prabhupāda: Just like an electrician. He is, by his knowledge, he is, the same box, he's turning to be a refrigerator. And again heater. He knows how, the art. So the heat and the coolness is coming from the engineer. But he's not there. He's not there.

Dr. Patel: God is with that.

Mr. Sar: Tribhir guṇamayir bhāvair ebhiḥ sarvam idaṁ jagat.

Prabhupāda: Then again comes to that, here... Kṛṣṇa is within the dog, but he is not dog.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And if you say "dog-nārāyaṇa," that is mistake. (laughter)

Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: But they... Now it is clear. That antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ. That is intelligence, that "If I have to ask something, and it is to be ended, why shall I be interested with such thing?" So devān deva-yājo yānti...

Mr. Sar: Mad-bhakta yānti mām api.

Prabhupāda: Mām api. So why not go to Kṛṣṇa? Why to these... (break) The Māyāvādīs, they think that Kṛṣṇa has got His māyā body. His body's māyā. Because the origin, Absolute, is impersonal, so when the Absolute comes in form, He accepts the material elements just like we do. We do. So they are abuddhayaḥ. Their intelligence is abu...

Mr. Sar: Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ (BG 7.24).

Prabhupāda: Vyaktim āpannaṁ.

Dr. Patel: They consider body of Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Avyaktam, avyaktam, the Absolute Truth is avyaktam. And when Absolute Truth comes, incarnation, He accepts this mayic body.

Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay:

Italian Man (1): Exactly. I wanted to ask you about Kṛṣṇa in the heart. Could you tell us something about His physiognomy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. His physiognomy is sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (Bs. 5.1). That we can understand. Sac-cid-ānanda. He is eternal, He is full of knowledge and He is blissful. Sac-cid-ānanda. Your body, my body, is just opposite. It is not eternal, it is temporary. And it is full of ignorance. Therefore we require knowledge. (aside:) Little away, yes. So this is full of ignorance, and there are so many miseries. So Kṛṣṇa hasn't got a body like this. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's body is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. So we can distinguish what is Kṛṣṇa's body and what is our body. (break) ...understand. Try to understand, that what is the nature... That is called spiritual body. So we have got also similar body, but very small, very small. That is covered by this material body. And because in the spiritual body I am person, I have got form, therefore the material elements have taken a form. Just like when your coat is made, it is made according to your body. Because you have got hands, so the coat has got a hand. But the hand of the coat is not real. The real hand is within the coat. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Within. These foolish people, they do not understand. They take, "This is hand. This is hand." He does not know that this hand is artificial, outward. Real hand is within. This is their misconception. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Try to understand. These are very important question. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because within the coat the real man is there, therefore the dress has assumed two hands, two legs, one collar, like that. But this is false, like dress. Real... Therefore every living entity has got form. He is not formless.

Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is everything. So His photograph is also Kṛṣṇa. It is not that foolish people, they worship a photograph. No. It is reality. It is reality. Yes. (break) Kṛṣṇa is everything. Can you explain? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Who can explain? Explain, yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi... (BG 7.8). (break)

Prabhupāda: Bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). Because this material world means these elements, this earth, this water, then fire, then air, then sky—five elements. So what are these elements? These elements are Kṛṣṇa's energy. Bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ.

Italian Man (1): Material energy.

Prabhupāda: Material energy, yes. And the living entities, they are also energy, spiritual energy. Two energies. Two energies means just like fire. Fire has got two energies, heat and light. Similarly, the whole creation is combination of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore everything is Kṛṣṇa. Is it not? Yes. Just like you take milk. From milk you prepare so many milk preparations. You prepare yogurt, you prepare ghee, you prepare rasagullā, you prepare burfi and so many others. But therefore, actually, all of them are milk. This is... Under different combination only. In the milk, if you put some sour thing, it becomes yogurt. But it is milk. And that sour thing also, which is put into the milk, that is also Kṛṣṇa. (break) Why He is originally person, try to understand. And all these energies are imperson. Just like I am a person, you are a person. But when I... My temperature is imperson. Is it not? I have got temperature, if you put thermometer. That is imperson. So person is the origin, and the impersonal temperature is the energy.

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Guest (6): Consciousness movement in the West-like you said, the Western people are fed up with materialism. Is it that they are fed up only with materialism or with...?

Prabhupāda: Well, people, people have become godless everywhere. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or Muhammadan or Hindu. That is a general disease. So actually, everyone is concerned now with material comforts. But these material comforts mean wine and women, that's all. Substance of material comforts. So that they have enjoyed enough. The facility of enjoying woman and getting money, there is no limit. There is no limit. Anyone, the money is thrown in the street. You can simply collect. And similarly, women are available. So actually, they do not get any happiness by these material elements. They are seeking after something, that's a fact.

Guest (7): But isn't the Kṛṣṇa consciousness has not spread in the Arab world?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is spreading. We have got branch in Iran.

Guest (7): Yes?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We have got branch in Moscow, we have got in China. But they are taking gradually. Everything will take time. But we have got many Muhammadan students.

Room Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne -- June 4, 1974, Geneva:

Nitāi: "Lord Caitanya continued: The expansions of Lord Kṛṣṇa who come to the material creation are called avatāras, or incarnations. Avatāra means one who descends from the higher spiritual sky. In the spiritual sky there are innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets, and from such a planet, the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to this universe, and therefore He is called avatāra. Avatāra means to descend. The first descent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead from the expansion Saṅkarṣaṇa is the puruṣa incarnation. This is confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, both in the First Canto, Third Chapter, as well as in the Sixth Chapter. It is said there that the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends as the first puruṣa incarnation of the material creation, and He immediately manifests sixteen elementary energies. He is known as Mahā-Viṣṇu lying in the Causal Ocean, and He is the original incarnation in the material world. He is the Lord of time, nature, cause and effect, mind, ego, and the five elements, the three modes of nature, the senses and the universal form. He is independent and the master of all objects, moveable and immovable, in the material world. The influence of the material nature cannot reach beyond the Virajā or the Causal Ocean, and this is confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Second Canto, Ninth Chapter. On the Vaikuṇṭha planets there is no influence of the modes of material nature. There is no mixture of modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, neither is there any influence of material time. On those planets, the liberated associates of Kṛṣṇa live eternally, and they are worshiped both by the demigods and the demons. The material nature acts in two capacities as māyā and pradhāna. Māyā is the direct cause, and pradhāna means the elements of the material manifestation. The first puruṣa-avatāra, Mahā-Viṣṇu, glances over the material nature, and thereby the material nature becomes agitated, and the puruṣa-avatāra thus impregnates matter with the living entities. By His glancing, consciousness is created, and consciousness is known as mahat-tattva. The predominating deity of mahat-tattva is Vāsudeva. Consciousness is then divided into three departmental activities under the three guṇas or modes of nature. Consciousness in the mode of goodness is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Eleventh Canto, as the predominating Deity of Aniruddha. Consciousness in the mode of material passion produces intelligence, and the predominating Deity is called Pradyumna. He is the master of the senses. Consciousness in the mode of ignorance is the cause of the production of the ether, the sky and the cause of production of the hearing instrument, the ear. The cosmic manifestation is a combination of all these, and thereby the innumerable universes are created. Nobody can count how many universes there are. These innumerable universes are being produced from the pores on the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu. It is also said that as innumerable atoms are coming and going through the holes in a window, so from the pores of the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu, innumerable universes emanate. From His breathing also, innumerable universes are being produced and annihilated. All His energies are spiritual. They have nothing to do with the material energy. In the Brahma-saṁhitā this fact is also stated. In the Fifth Chapter, fifty-fourth verse, it is said that the predominating deity of each universe, Brahmā, lives only during one breath of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Mahā-Viṣṇu again is the original Supersoul of all the universes. He is also the master of the universes. That is the description of the first incarnation known as Mahā-Viṣṇu. The second Viṣṇu incarnation enters into each and every universe, and in each and every universe He spreads water from His body and on that water He lies down. From His navel the stem of a lotus flower grows, and on that lotus flower the first creature, Brahmā, is born. Within the stem of that lotus flower, there are fourteen divisions of planetary systems which are created by Brahmā. In each universe, the Lord as Viṣṇu maintains the universe tending to its needs, and although He is within the universe, the influence of the material energy cannot touch Him. The same Viṣṇu, when it is required, takes the form of Lord Śiva and annihilates the cosmic... (break) ...Viṣṇu who is the master of the universe, and in each universe there is a manifestation of the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. Although He is within the material nature, still, He is not touched by it. The third incarnation of Viṣṇu is also an incarnation of the mode of goodness. As the Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu, He is also the Supersoul of all living entities, and He resides in the ocean of milk within the universe. Thus Lord Caitanya described the puruṣāvatāras. Then He described the līlāvatāras. He said that there is no count, no limit or count, for the līlā or pastime avatāras, but some of them may be described by the Lord. For example, Matsya, Kūrma, Raghunātha, Nṛsiṁha, Vāmana and Varāha. A description of the qualitative incarnations of Viṣṇu, or guṇāvatāras, is as follows: Brahmā is one of the living entities, but he is very powerful on account of his devotional service. Such a primal living entity by the influence of the mode of material passion is situated as Brahmā. He is made powerful by the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu directly, and therefore Brahmā has the power to create innumerable living entities. A description of Brahmā is given in the Brahma-saṁhitā, Fifth chapter, fiftieth verse. Brahmā is likened to the valuable stones influenced by the rays of the sun, and the sun is likened to the Supreme... (break) ...lamp. Although both lamps are of equal candle power, still, one is accepted as the original and the other is said to be kindled by the original lamp."

Prabhupāda: This is very good example. There are many candles. Just like you ignite one candle. Then from this candle, another candle, another candle. Then many thousands of candles. So each candle is of the same power, lighting power. But still the first one is called original. So far the candle power is concerned, they are of equal flame, but still, the first candle, the second candle, the third candle. like that.

Morning Walk -- June 12, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: We don't glorify the body of... Who glorifies the body of man? We say it is dead body. Dead body means that does not need glorification. It is condemned. We say dead body, decoration of the dead body. We don't say art.

Paramahaṁsa: Catholic Renaissance Art, they glorified the dead body. Leonardo da Vinci, they glorified the body of man.

Prabhupāda: That is called bhūtejya. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā as worshiping the material elements. That's all. Here in western countries, that is the prominent thing, bhūtejya. (pause) What is the other side? Lion? (pause, break) They cover with some cloth, some loose cloth. Is it not?

Bhagavān: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is French art, to make naked?

Devotee: Yes.

Bhagavān: Little more advanced.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Therefore nowadays students are walking naked in America. Advanced, more advanced.

Room Conversation with Mr. Deshimaru -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Then what is that position of no desire?

Karandhara: The real position is to eliminate the self. The only possible way that they can achieve no desire, no initiative, is to eliminate the self altogether, to make the self become eliminated and just be the cosmic one again without any self.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be done automatically. Why you practice so much? (French)

Pṛthu Putra: He says the practice of zazen harmonize the self in this cosmic force.

Bhagavān: Does that harmony means to merge?

Prabhupāda: Now let me explain. Suppose the material elements are there. Somehow or other, combined together they have become this body. Is it not? Now, this body, when I am dead body, automatically it again becomes dispersed to the different elements. So this is taking place for even cats and dogs. Then what is the value of my meditation? (French)

Yogeśvara: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've defeated him. He doesn't really have an answer.

Pṛthu Putra: He says so then I am practicing like a cat and dog, but the deep goal...

Prabhupāda: But I mean to say what result you will get more than the cats and dogs?

Karandhara: Why practice? (French)

Bhagavān: What happens to the cat and the dog in the end?

Karandhara: Actually, Zen philosophy, they accept reincarnation, that the self keeps on taking bodies until he becomes selfless, and it's only in the human form that he can develop that selflessness.

Prabhupāda: Then they have to accept good work and bad work.

Reporters Interview -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Merging is different. But the ocean remains the ocean.

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: And you remain the drop. That's all. Because... Now, suppose your body, material body—earth, water, air, fire—now, when this body will be decomposed, so this form will not remain. Does it mean that your body has become the whole universal material elements?

Guest (2): No. But surely body is different from soul.

Prabhupāda: That body is a drop in the bigger material elements. That does not mean your body has become the whole material elements. Similarly, a drop of ocean water is drop always. It does not become ocean. It appears that it is mixed up. But mixed up does not mean the drop will become as ocean. That is not the fact.

Guest (3): When they say the drop mixes with the ocean...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): ...it's like the human finite form merging with the infinite, and then it acquires the powers of infinite...

Prabhupāda: Mixes means... Just like, the example is given: just like a green bird enters into a tree which is also green. So if... To my eyes it appears that the bird is mixed up, but actually that is not fact. Suppose an aeroplane, you see aeroplane is going on. Then, after some time you see there is no aeroplane. It is the same sky. It has mixed up. It has not mixed up. Your eyes are defective. It appears like mixed up. But it cannot mix up. The airplane is keeping its identity. The bird is keeping its identity.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: If you have studied about the subtle body of living entity?

Psychologist: No.

Prabhupāda: First of all, this, this gross body made of five material elements—earth, water, air, fire, like that. This we can see with our eyes, but we cannot see the mind, intelligence and ego. Although everyone knows there is mind, there is intelligence. So when this body is annihilated, the subtle body—mind, intelligence, ego-carries the soul to another gross body. This is the process of transmigration of the soul. Now, what do you think of this process?

Psychologist: (Spanish)

Hṛdayānanda: She says in her... In the field of psychology also they admit also, they admit the existence of forces beyond the gross elements, and although ordinarily they do not deal with that, she is very interested to know about it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the law. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "The soul is not annihilated after the destruction of the body." You find out that verse, na jāyate na mriyate va kadacit.

Room Conversation with Metaphysics Society -- February 21, 1975, Caracas:

Guest (Hṛdayānanda): So he is saying that this material world is a combination of so many different elements, intelligence, so on and so forth. And in the center of all of this, the essence is that which is eternal. And this eternal thing cannot have any name because then it would be limited, and that would be a contradiction. And also it has no form.

Prabhupāda: No, that eternity, that is nice, that the material world is temporary, and the eternity is spiritual. That is clear understanding. Material elements, just like earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, ego, intelligence, and the spiritual element is which is utilizing these material elements. Do you admit this?

Guest: Si.

Prabhupāda: The others? That is the distinction between matter and spirit. Just like this microphone, it is combination of earth, water, air, fire, like that. But the living being, he has utilized, he has combined this matter into this microphone. Is that admitted? Now, exactly like the microphone, the combination of matter and done by some living entity, similarly, the whole cosmic manifestation is combination of matter, and there is one living being or the Supreme Being who has combined them, and it is working. Is that admitted? So that is the difference between limited and unlimited, that I, you are living being... We can also create something like this microphone or this big aeroplane. We have created. That is limited. But there is another one who has created innumerable planets and that is floating in the air. Is it not? We are taking credit of becoming big scientist by creating one airship, 747, five hundred passengers carrying. How many we have created? Maybe hundred, two hundred. But there are millions and trillions of planets floating in the same way in the air, and those planets containing so many big, big mountains, ocean, and they are floating in the air. We can create limited things, but He can create unlimited things. Therefore we have got our limited brain, and He has got unlimited brain.

Room Conversation with Psychiatrist -- February 22, 1975, Caracas:

Prabhupāda: The physical defect... Just like a driver of the car, and when his car is damaged, the driver becomes very sorry that "My car is now broken, damaged," but is the driver the carriage? Sometimes a valuable car is damaged and the proprietor or the driver, he becomes very sorry, almost half-dead, "Oh, my car is lost." So this is due to his too much attraction for the car. When the machine car stops (it) does not mean the driver is damaged. But he thinks, "Now, I am finished. My car is damaged." But although he is not the car, he thinks that he is damaged. So that is mental disease. He is different from the car, but he thinks that he is damaged by the damage of the car. And if he knows correctly, that "What is that? I will get another new car," what is the cause of suffering? The driver is not the car, but on account of his too much absorption, identifying the car with him, he suffers. So if the psychiatrist informs him that "Why you are sorry? You are not the car," then he is cured. So the modern civilization defect is that he is not this body, but he does not know it. Therefore, in the Vedic literature it is said, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke: (SB 10.84.13) "Anyone is identifying himself with this body which is made of material element," yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu, "and in bodily relationship he is thinking his family is protector, his nation is protector, in this way, one who lives, he is no better than the animal." Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā... You find out this verse, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase.

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Yoga student: But it's the glow which reaches man.

Prabhupāda: Eh, these are example.

Yoga student: He can't touch the globe because he would be consumed.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, the qualitative change. But it is... There are five elements, so it is made of fire, that's all. As your body is made of earth, that sun globe or the sun-god, the body is made of fire, that's all. There are other planets also; the body is made of air because you do not find more than these five elements, earth, water, air, fire, sky-gross; and subtle—mind, intelligence and ego. So subtle, the same, but gross—somewhere the fire is prominent; somewhere water is prominent, air is prominent; somewhere earth is prominent. So here in this world, in this planet, the earth is prominent.

Yoga student: Distinct from being permanent, the eternal?

Atreya Ṛṣi: Is prominent.

Yoga student: Oh, prominent.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Earth is prominent.

Yoga student: It's the prominent form in this material world.

Atreya Ṛṣi: In this earth, in this planet, earth is the prominent of the five elements.

Prabhupāda: Whole world, whole universe, they are made of these five elements.

Atreya Ṛṣi: All the creation, the material creation, is made of five elements.

Yoga student: What is the fifth besides earth, air, fire and water?

Prabhupāda: Ether.

Morning Walk -- March 15, 1975, Tehran:

Guest: But its the glow which reaches man because...

Prabhupāda: No, these are examples.

Guest: He can't really touch the globe because he would be consumed.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, qualitative change. But if, there are five elements. It is made of fire, that's all. As your body is made of earth, that sun globe or sun god's body is made of fire. There are other planets also, the body is made of air. Because you do not find more than these five elements—earth, water, air, fire, sky-gross and subtle—mind, intelligence. So, subtle, the same gross, somewhere fire is prominent, somewhere water is prominent, air is prominent, somewhere earth is prominent. So here in this world, in this planet, the earth is prominent.

Guest: So, there is a distinction between permanent and the eternal?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: Prominent.

Guest: Oh, prominent, ah ha.

Devotee: The earth is prominent.

Guest: Ah ha. It's the prominent form in this material world.

Devotee: On this earth, on this planet...

Guest: On this planet.

Devotee: ...earth is prominent amongst the five elements.

Prabhupāda: Whole world, whole universe, they are made of these five elements.

Morning Walk -- March 15, 1975, Tehran:

Devotee: (indistinct) of the five elements.

Guest: What is the fifth besides earth, air, fire and water?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: What is the fifth element after earth, air, fire and water?

Prabhupāda: Ether.

Guest: Ether. How does ether distinguish...?

Prabhupāda: Sky. Ether is, presence of ether, by sound.

Guest: How is ether distinct from air?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest: How is ether distinct from air?

Prabhupāda: Ether you cannot feel touch, (in) air you can feel touch.

Devotee 2: Different sense perceptions. On this planet the bodies are made of earth. But there are other places on the planets, where the physical body is composed of different combinations. Say one is predominately air, another can be fire, another watery.

Guest: But is ether a gross element as well?

Devotee: Space.

Prabhupāda: Yes, space.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: They may be very strong, our tiger and elephant, but they have no capacity to accept any education. Then?

Brahmānanda: "But in human society, even though one may be a low-grade member of the society, he can be trained up to be purified as a first-class brāhmaṇa. It only requires training. Therefore, manava-dharma means to impregnate a human being with spiritual knowledge. A human being must be educated spiritually. That means he must know that he is not this body. Kṛṣṇa teaches this idea in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā,

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati
(BG 2.13)

This is the beginning of spiritual education, that every one of us is not this body. Unfortunately the whole world is in darkness, and therefore every human is identifying with this body and thinking wrongly, 'I am Indian,' 'I am American,' 'I am brāhmaṇa,' 'I am this,' 'I am that.' To drive away this misconception of life is actually manava-dharma. We must know that we are not this body but spirit soul, and as such, we are part and parcel of God and therefore qualitatively one with God, exactly like a small particle of gold is also gold as is the gold from the big gold mine. But quantitatively the particle of gold is not equal to the gold in the mine. This is very elaborately described in the Bhagavad-gītā, and if we accept these principles of Bhagavad-gītā as manava-dharma, then the whole world will appreciate. And this is being done by our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Point Five: Elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saṁsṛti which are useful and wholesome but which are being discarded in practice, and those which may be considered to be unsuitable in the present times. Number Five: Regarding elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saṁsṛti..."

Prabhupāda: This kind of understanding at the present time, at the present time... (Hindi) So we give reference, that "Present time, everyone is fallen." But truth is always the same, not at present time. So the real truth is that ideal man of character there must be. Because at the present moment there is no character, there is no moral education, therefore we have to adapt according to them, no. The pukka moralist, he must be moralist. It doesn't matter that "People at the present time, they do all immoral activities; therefore we have to adjust." No. Strictly one should be moralist. There is no question of present time or past time. That should be real point of view.

Room Conversation with Kim Cornish -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Kim: What can be said about God realization?

Prabhupāda: I have given the example. Just like this sunshine is coming from the sun globe. Within the sun globe there is the president of the planet. Just like here on this planet you have got some president. Here there are many presidents, because it is hodgepodge, chaotic. But there everything is systematic. There is one person, his name is Vivasvān. He's the predominating deity. Kṛṣṇa went to see him and talked with him about Bhagavad-gītā. He's a person, and there the people, they are also persons. Just like in this planet. But here the body is predominantly made of earth, and there the body is predominantly of fire. Therefore it is so glowing. The glowing temperature, heat and light, is coming from the person, their body is made of glowing heat or fire. There are five material elements: earth, water, fire, air, and ether. In some planet the earth is prominent, in some planet the water is prominent, in some planets the fire is prominent. So the sun planet is prominent with fire. There the bodies made of the inhabitants there are fire. So all the combination of the fiery effulgence is the heat of the sun globe and that is being distributed. It is in the (indistinct). You can see and realize. Everything is there. If you study nature you will get everything. (end)

Morning Walk -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Madhudviṣa: It would indicate that the creation of this universe takes place in stages, over quite a long period of time, and this is what the scientists also claim. Darwin's theory is similar to that, that first there was water, then vegetation came up, and then gradually, gradually, each and every species evolved, like that. So is there some correlation between those?

Prabhupāda: But the varieties of creation, not that everything is coming like that. Just like Brahmā was first created, the first intelligent man. So although there was water, he was above water. He was on the lotus flower, which is not in the water. So that is also creation. So suppose this part is not covered by water—you see grass. But where there is lake there is no grass. So both things are there. Somewhere where there is water, unless the water is dried up, there is no grass. But somewhere you will find, immediately, grass. But there is no water. Or above water. So far the material elements are concerned, that is this stage. But the material elementary presentation, in different places, different way.

Madhudviṣa: From the Bhāgavatam we understand, though, that Brahmā first created human species of life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, from him.

Madhudviṣa: So if he created the human species of life, how is the...

Prabhupāda: No, that other's creation was there. Just like Lord Śiva. He began to create all demons. The Brahmā stopped it. So somebody was creating demons, somebody was creating animals.

Morning Walk -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Devotee: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the sound is the same, does that mean that when you become fully purified you will also see the sound of an automobile horn as transcendental?

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is transcendental, this microphone, because it is being used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. The same flower, when you use it for sense gratification, it is material. The same flower when you offer to Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual. The flower is not different, but by the different use it becomes material and spiritual. I think I have said many times that there is actually no material existence. Therefore it is called māyā. Māyā means it has no actual existence. We create an atmosphere. That is māyā. Atmosphere of forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa, that is māyā. Anartha. Anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam (SB 1.7.6). If this park is given to us, we can immediately make it Vaikuṇṭha. We know how to do it. But it is not given to us. The same electric energy is creating heater and cooler. For the cooler there is no different electric energy. And for the heater there is no different—the same electric. Similarly, the material and spiritual is coming from Kṛṣṇa's energy.

How Kṛṣṇa's energy can be material? That is spiritual. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said that "These material elements, they are also My energy." So how Kṛṣṇa's energy can be material? Bhinna, separated, a little separated, that's all. Separated means as soon as you separate Kṛṣṇa from anything, that is material. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have to dovetail everything with Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be spiritual. As soon as you say these demons they separate Kṛṣṇa, "What is Kṛṣṇa? What is God? We are scientist, we are technicians and so on, so on. We create our own thing." That means they don't dovetail with Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are materialist. When we want to enjoy life without Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And Kṛṣṇa gives chance, "All right, you enjoy without Me." And when he is disgusted, then Kṛṣṇa comes once, "Now you have experienced. You haven't got happiness. Now give up this attitude to enjoy without Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam... (BG 18.66).

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. You like, you sit down, and you go when it is finished. But how do you claim that it is your property?

Guest 2: Good-bye. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: That is called māyā. This is māyā. The philosophy of māyā, māyā means what is not. Mā-yā. Mā means not, yā means this. So māyā means the conclusion, as you have made, that is not. That is not the fact. So we are claiming, "America is our", "Australia is our", "India is our". Nothing our. Everything God's. The best conclusion is, "It is God's property. God has given us to live. Let us thank God, feel obliged to Him, and glorify Him." That is our vision. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You accept the real position, that nothing belongs to you, everything belongs to God. You also belong to God. Your body, yourself, everything belongs to God. This body is material body. That material energy, earth, water, air, fire—everything belongs to God. This sea belongs to God, water, vast water. You have not created, neither your forefather has created. So this body is made of earth, water, air, fire, five elements. So your, the body is also God's.

Morning Walk -- June 2, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. (laughter) Just see, route. Pan American, yes. They sold so many tickets. Such fools there are.

Bali-mardana: In New York sometimes people sell new immigrants the Brooklyn Bridge.

Prabhupāda: And Moscow Sea. They pitched one flag in the moon planet and named Moscow Sea. Yes.

Indian man: Just like you said that this moon and other planets are also made of these five elements—earth, water, fire, ether—they brought a rock from there. So they are accepting that the moon is made of those elements also. But they are not accepting that life is there.

Prabhupāda: No, they'll not accept. Therefore... therefore fools. Why? The circumstance is the same. Why there should be no life? That is foolishness. We have got experience. As soon as there is water, there is life. As soon as there is land, there is life. As soon as there is air, there is life. So where is life? No life.

Devotee (3): They may agree in undeveloped species, but as far as higher forms of life, they will not agree, such as humans or demigods.

Prabhupāda: No, that also we cannot agree. If there are lower species, there must be higher species. As we see here is dog also, man also, higher species, lower species, why not there? They can talk all nonsense, but a nonsense will believe. No sane man will believe. (break) ...going to meet in the space?

Ambarīṣa: Yes.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

John Mize: But he misused that intelligence in his freedom, his independence.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Mind is there also. That is spiritual mind. Everything is spiritual. There is nothing material. Body spiritual, mind spiritual, intelligence spiritual, he is spiritual, the land spiritual, water spiritual—everything is spiritual. That is spiritual world. Here in the material world, except the spirit soul, everything is material. And he is encumbered with this material atmosphere by twenty-seven stratas, layers. The five elements, gross elements, then ten senses, and then three guṇas... In this way there are twenty-seven layers. He is within, and he has to be taken out. That is called liberation. Just like if you are covered with twenty-seven layers of dirty things, so it is very difficult position. But there is process to clear the garbage and take him out. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious movement, to take the soul out of the covering of twenty-seven layers of material atmosphere. That śloka is naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu: "almost cleansed." Abhadra, abhadra means dirty things. So this clearing process going on. When it is almost cleansed the man feels, "Oh..." And that process: nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā (SB 1.2.18), constantly being engaged in the service of Bhāgavata, grantha-Bhāgavata and the person Bhāgavata. Then it will be cleansed. And then, when he comes out, that is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54), "Oh, I am now free." Na śocati na..., no more lamentation, no more greediness. Everything finished. Then he begins his real business as part and parcel of God. That is perfection.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda, in the Thirteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, "Nature, Enjoyer, and Consciousness," in verse number six and seven you mention those twenty-seven coverings: "The five great elements, false ego, intelligence, the unmanifest, the ten senses, the mind, the five sense objects, desire, hate, happiness, and distress, the aggregate, the life symptoms and convictions—all these are considered, in summary, to be the field of activities and their interaction." And...

Prabhupāda: By the material life, these are our field of activities. The body is a combination of all these things. Just like a huge computer machine. It is made of these material things, but the mechanical parts are very minute, different. All these are matter. But within this matter, because the soul is there, therefore the finest machine is working. Just like your composition machine, (imitates machine:) "Kut, kut, kut, kut, kut, kut." But one has to push the button; otherwise useless. However very nicely made the machine, without a living being's touch, it is useless. So all this big machine, body, is wonderful so long the soul is there. And as soon as the soul is out it is lump of matter, useless, not worth a penny. Throw it away. So we are giving importance to the machine, not to the person who is dealing with the machine. This is the folly of modern civilization. We are thinking like child, "The machine is working independently." But that is not the fact. The big airship, 747, is flying because the pilot is there, and the pilot is a soul, covered by another bodily machine. And that, that is missing point in the modern civilization, that who is working with the machine. That they do not know. That is ignorance.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Anyway, that... It is coming out of that egg, so there is life. We do not recommend prohibition of eggs because living entity. It is not very good food. It agitates the senses. Therefore we prohibit. Yes?

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the doctor's first question that he brought up that although we are conscious, our consciousness seems to be affected by different material arrangements. There's one philosopher William James, who is like the father of psychology. He says the same thing that consciousness can be affected by removing the material elements. So that is simply the arrangement of the modes of nature?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The same three guṇas. If you contact with tamo-guṇa, then your consciousness is tamo-guṇa. Tamo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, sattva-guṇa, and if your consciousness is always with Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

John Mize: James had a very interesting view of consciousness. The brain doesn't cause the consciousness, he felt. It does not originate it. It only receives it like a radio receiver is receiving transmissions.

Prabhupāda: That is the...

John Mize: He felt that the source of consciousness was divine. James was a religious man.

Press Conference -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Let it be finished. Otherwise, attention will be diverted. (break)

Bhaktadāsa: ...photograph, we'd like to introduce the founder-ācārya spiritual master of the entire Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, who founded this movement in 1966, coming here to America from Calcutta. Now His Divine Grace has very kindly once again come to San Francisco to lead us in this holy Rathayātrā Jagannātha cart parade. And we will ask him the questions that you have written down, and he will answer those questions, like that. So the first question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is "What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement?"

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that every one of us is in some type of consciousness: "I am American," "I am Indian," and, "It is my property," "America is my property," "India is my property." But we say that "Everything is Kṛṣṇa's property." Kṛṣṇa is the... Kṛṣṇa, God, when we say Kṛṣṇa, we mean God. God is the original proprietor. And He is, therefore, the supreme enjoyer, and He is everyone's friend. If we understand these three things, then we become peaceful. If all the nations in the United Nations assembly accept that everything belongs to God, then their quarrel between one nation to another nation immediately stops. But present fighting is that two hundred years ago the Americans were mostly in Europe. Now they have migrated and claiming America is theirs. So we think always that "All land belongs to God." Just like this big ocean. Who has created this ocean? Man has not created. Therefore, if God has created, then God is the proprietor. Take land, water. These are the material elements. Who has created such vast sky? That is also material. So we think in that way and try to find out the answer from authoritative sources. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Paramahaṁsa: But to scientific knowledge there's no life in fire.

Prabhupāda: Why not? Fire is also one of the elements like water and earth. So if there is life in the water, life on the earth, why not in the fire? What is this logic?

Bahulāśva: Actually, everything is burning. Even this body is also on fire.

Prabhupāda: No, the material ingredients, five elements... Out of the five elements, fire is one of them. So if in the four elements there are life, why not in the fifth? How do you say? That is their ignorance.

Devotee (3): You say even in the śāstra, Prabhupāda, that there's so many living entities in this body. It's evident.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. As soon as the body is dead, so many living entities will come out. Why? How it is possible? How these living entities are coming? What is the reason? You say the body is dead, so why from the dead body other living entities coming?

Paramahaṁsa: It becomes food for other living... It becomes food.

Prabhupāda: Food or whatever it may be, but the body, the ingredients of the body are complete to get life. You cannot say some chemical is missing. If it is missing, then how so many living entities are coming? There is nothing missing; everything is there. You cannot say, "missing." What is that "missing"? You do not know. That is soul.

Morning Walk -- November 11, 1975, Bombay:

Saurabha: Not more than that.

Prabhupāda: And in our list the plants are there. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. Sthāvara means plants. There are jalaja, aquatics, and sthāvara means plant. All living entities, different forms... Bhagavad-gītā says, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya (BG 14.4). As many forms are there of the living entities. But what are these forms? Forms means the spirit soul is one, and he is covered by these material elements. That is form. So either your form or my form, but the ingredients are the same, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). (break) The soul is the same, and the ingredients of the body are the same. That is explained in Iśo..., ekatvam anupaśyate. Just like from gold, take from the mine—you make earring or this finger ring, the ingredients are the same. The forms may be different. (break) Apollo airship, thousands of technologists and scientists were engaged to make this Apollo, and it burst out. So they have no foreseeing power that it will burst out. At that time they began to pray to God.

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- February 19, 1976, Mayapura:

Sudāmā: Why we are envious,

Guru-kṛpā: How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru-kṛpā: How is it that...

Prabhupāda: That is independence. That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate.

Sudāmā: It is very hard thing to understand.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult.

Acyutānanda: It is not difficult. They don't want to understand.

Prabhupāda: Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel.

Acyutānanda: No, their idea is that they want to blame God for their predicament, like a bad child, you know, says, "Well you made me do it."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Sudāmā: "What can I do?"

Prabhupāda: No, they say, "Why you gave me birth?" They say like that.

Morning Walk -- March 16, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of that machine? What is the use of that machine? Everyone knows that it is air. Now air is stopped. That is my reject(?). Bring that air again. There is ample air. Bring that machine. Simply... Similarly, if you analyze the whole body, it is confirmed, you will find these five elements, that 's all, earth, water, air, fire, sky. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's scientific. No one denies that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They why don't you create a body? What is your science?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've just pointed out: the body may already be there, but they cannot replace the life. Even a body is already created, like a dead body, but they can't bring life back into it.

Prabhupāda: Then what is that life? That is the question. That life is soul. You have to accept. (break) ...car stop. Some machine broken. As soon as the machine is placed, now the motor car is fit for running, but not for the machine, but for the driver. When the driver is not there, you cannot create or purchase a driver. That is not possible. You can repair the machine, but without driver the machine will not run. So why they should be blind about this fact? What is this knowledge, advancement of knowledge? The body is created. If it is accepted-body is created by these material elements—now create another body. Just like dollmakers make a body, you also make a body, very beautiful woman, and give it life. Why they cannot do it?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But even accepting that the soul is the living force, they may say that "Well, we're living in this material world and we have to deal with matter, so what is the importance of all this knowledge?"

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They may say that "We're living in the material world in spite of this knowledge, so we have to deal with material circumstances."

Prabhupāda: But you do not like to die. Why do you die with your material knowledge? Nobody wants to die but why you die? Then where is your material knowledge. You do not like to be old man. Where is your material knowledge that you can stop old age? Then you have to accept that your material knowledge is not perfect. Why you are so much proud of this false knowledge? Unnecessarily.

Morning Walk -- March 26, 1976, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: She bought. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Yadubara: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the single elements alone in the body do not have life. The blood does not have life, the air does not have life, and so on. How would you prove that all of them combined together don't have life? How would you prove that?

Prabhupāda: No, no. We do not find in the water, in the air, in the fire the five elements, you do not find there is life. So what is this, that life force? They are trying to prove that combination of this, there is life, but actually by analytical study we don't find life. The first example is this breathing. Everyone is under the impression that breathing is life. So when the breathing is stopped, the air is stopped. Just make some artificial way of breathing, bring life.

Yadubara: They may say that that is only one aspect.

Prabhupāda: Every aspect you say, rascal. You take water, take fire. Where is life? Just like heat, heat in the body. Heat is fire. So everything you take which constitutes this body, analyze separately and find out life, where is life.

Room Conversation -- April 20, 1976, Melbourne:

Guru-kṛpā: They don't have artificial blood. I don't think they can make artificial blood.

Prabhupāda: Nothing. Artificial blood.... Superficially it is red water. So if red water is the life, then why you are spoiling so much blood? Keep it scientifically and push it into the dead body. I say it is, that way, it is the red water, nothing but red water. Urine is white water. I am coming to the five elements, air, water.... Then what is this bone? Earth. You can manufacture bone, hard bone, with earth or wood or something plastic. So we are analyzing the combination of the body, so everything you can manufacture. But where is the life you can manufacture? Why do you say? That is our challenge. All the ingredients of the body you can manufacture exactly like that. Ultimately you can give the beauty also of the woman or the man. But where is life? Bring life by all these things. Then I will say that you are scientist. Otherwise cheater, simply bluffing people. This thing should be stopped. Where you get the information that this, from matter life is possible. "In future." But in future.... In inceptive condition you show something. Just like formerly they were flying balloons. So because they were flying, they could say that "Future we shall fly a big city." And in the history we can see that that is not impossible, because in the inceptive condition or initiative condition we see that big things can be flown. But here you cannot even prepare an ant. You have not been able to prepare even a small ant, germ. Show me. So why do you say, "In future I shall do it"?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of these creature don't even have hearts.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of the insects don't even have hearts.

Prabhupāda: And how do you say? They have everything. You have no intelligence to understand. Everything, all anatomic physiology is there, even the small full stop. You cannot see even, microbe. That is God's creation.

Room Conversation -- April 20, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the wrong there?

Guru-kṛpā: Then there's three hearts?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately manufactured as soon as the living enters. Their chemical composition is that, that even you cut a living entity, he can enter. The living entity enters through the semina of the father in the womb of the mother, the same process. Unless the living entity enters, the body does not form. It is matter only. When the living entity enters, then the formation takes place according to his mind. What do they know about it? Hm? Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). The matter simply is set up according to the desire. Just like we have constructed this big house according to my desire. The matter has not taken shape like this big house automatically. I am the proprietor. I desire: "Let the rooms be like this." Similarly, the material elements, the semina of the father and the ova of the mother, mix. It creates a suitable, what is called, cement, and now, according to the desire of the living being, he'll settle. Not that the cement automatically becomes a room or pipe or this or that. Cement is cement, the same thing, earth, water, air, fire. By mixture it becomes so convenient that it takes a shape and becomes a different body, a different body for the man, a different body for the animal.... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you.

Mike Barron: A little crooked. Jaya. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Room Conversation -- April 20, 1976, Melbourne:

Carol Jarvis: I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the message, that people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your, this shirt and coat. You are within the shirt and coat. Similarly, the living entity, the living being, is within this body, the gross body and the subtle body. The subtle body is composed of mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is a composition of these material things, earth, water, air, fire, like that, five elements. Altogether, eight elements. This is inferior energy. And the superior energy is within these eight elements, five gross and three subtle. So we have to study about that thing. Just like I asked that boy that "You can manufacture a huge machine, flying in the sky, 747, but why don't you manufacture the pilot?"

Carol Jarvis: Thank you. (background conversation about filming, recording)

Prabhupāda: So that is intelligence, that if in spite of your manufacturing such a huge machine, without the help of a pilot you cannot fly it.

Morning Walk -- May 3, 1976, Fiji:

Prabhupāda: Laṅgoṭā means the loincloth. So what is it you have given up? And you cannot give up your body. This is made, this kṣitir ap-tejo-marud-vyoma, (indistinct) these five elements, they're also Kṛṣṇa's. You have got mind. Oh, that belongs to Kṛṣṇa. What you have got that you'll give up? You have stolen everything. You don't accept the real proprietor, and you are thinking, "I am the proprietor." That is your fault. That is miscreant. Stena eva sa ucyate (BG 3.12). It is said there. Read Bhagavad-gītā carefully, that everyone is a thief. Stena eva sa ucyate. All thiefs, rogues, rascals. That is the substance. If one does not accept God, the Supreme, and does not surrender, he is miscreant, mūḍha. Mūḍha. He does not know what does he possess, and he's thinking, "I am giving up." What you are giving up? You do not possess anything. A mūḍha, falsely thinking that "I am giving up." What you have got? Nobody can give up, nobody can enjoy. This is real knowledge. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa: (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109) "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. Everything possessed by Kṛṣṇa. So I'll simply try to offer Kṛṣṇa whatever is there for His..." Just like nokara (indistinct), servant, in a house, he's trying to satisfy the master. But the things does not belong to him. The things belongs to the master. But if he serves very nicely, master becomes pleased, "Oh, he is very faithful servant. Perfect." Faithful means he knows that "Everything belongs to master, and everything should be utilized for master's pleasure, not for my pleasure." Then he's a thief, he's a bad servant.

Morning Walk -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is that how can an entity take birth in perspiration? His question. So how can a living entity take birth in the fire? Mostly our experience is that entities are taking birth from the earth, but according to the understanding...

Prabhupāda: So how the fishes are born in the water? How the other living entities, they remain in the air? Or without air? There are five elements: earth, water, fire, air.... Anywhere, the living entities can take birth. Sarva-ga. Sthāṇur sarva-gataḥ acalo 'yam. You read all these words of Bhagavad-gītā. Sarva-ga. From anywhere, he can take birth.

Devotee: Do the living entities who are born from perspiration require a mother and father?

Prabhupāda: No. No. There is mother. That perspiration is mother.

Rādhāvallabha: So the reason why they get a particular body...

Prabhupāda: And the father is God.

Rādhāvallabha: So they are just getting a particular body just due to Yamarāja.

Prabhupāda: Yes, according to the decision of the Yamarāja, he has to get a particular type of body.

Rādhāvallabha: The scientists don't know this.

Hari-śauri: It's very confusing, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Confusing must be. How you can understand the subtle laws of God? You have dull brain, with cow dung. (laughs) You cannot understand.

Room Conversation with Mother and Sons -- June 13, 1976, Detroit:
Prabhupāda: So this philosophy, our philosophy or anyone's philosophy.... Philosophy is not for our or yours. Philosophy is philosophy. That is a science. Philosophy is the science of sciences. That is the description of philosophy. In our college days we were philosophy student of Professor, Dr. W. S. Hartford. He defined that "Philosophy is the science of sciences." There are different departments of scientific knowledge. When they are taken together, the original science is philosophy. Philosophy is the science. Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam etad jñānam. Tad ajñānaṁ yad anyathā. It is not stated in the Bhagavad-gītā? Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. To know the Absolute Truth, that is philosophy. So the simple philosophy is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, that:
sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ
tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
(BG 14.4)

To understand God, a simple method. Simple method to.... Just like the earth is there, everybody knows. And from the earth different varieties of living entities are coming. The grass is coming, the plant is coming, then insects are coming, flies are coming, then by eating the grass or flies, the bigger animals are coming or they're existing. Take for four-legged animals, they are eating the grass, the plants. So they are living, their generation is going on. Then the human being is coming by evolution. So anyway, ultimately, they are coming from the earth. Is it not? Is there any difficulty? So we are coming from the earth or water or air, fire, there are five elements. Therefore on the total material elements is our mother. The mother means wherefrom one comes. He's your child because his body has come from your body. Everyone knows it. So every living being is coming out of this earth in different forms. Now if it is established, the mother is the earth and everything that is coming out of mother, they are children, then where is father? Is it not the next inquiry?

Room Conversation With Scientists -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want to make a chart. Now from these gross elements, the five gross elements, we want to extend to...

Prabhupāda: Earth, water, air, fire.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: From there we want to include the, let's say this table, ninety-two..., what scientists call elements, this gold, silver, copper, all these elements.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is within earth.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we are thinking that not only earth, but the water, air.

Prabhupāda: In the earth, there is already water, air, ether, fire, everything.

Rūpānuga: From previous.

Prabhupāda: Earth is the reservoir of all elements. As you go from earth to water, one is minus. From water, you go to fire, one is again minus. In this way, when you go up, ether, there is only one. And earth contains all the five.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: All the five gross elements.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation With Scientists -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Different quality of earth.

Rūpānuga: Like subcategory.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, in water also, all these, most of these earth materials are there, because it dissolves in water. Water is so many salts and elements, in a dissolved form.

Prabhupāda: That I told you, that in the earth all other five elements are there.

Rūpānuga: So water precedes earth in the creation. Water comes first.

Prabhupāda: No, ether.

Rūpānuga: I mean water comes before earth. Earth is last, and water is just before. So that we find earth in water.

Prabhupāda: Water it dries up.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's saying you can find earth in water.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation With Scientists -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: And it would, get one fine paper, you'll get.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hairs will stand on end.

Prabhupāda: So magnetism means another action of the fire. (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We talk sometimes things very complicated, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but Prabhupāda explains it very simply. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Because I am not scientist. (laughter) Just like I captured immediately, common sense.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In one of the articles in Back to Godhead, I think Dharmādhyakṣa, he uses different words for these five elements. So we are going to use these elements in our book also, so we wonder, he says for fire "radiant energy" instead of fire. I think it may sound little more...

Rūpānuga: They think this is so simplistic, you know, mythological-type breakdown, oversimplification. So he used different words, fire he said "radiant energy," water he said "liquidity." What did he say for earth? "Solid matter" he said for earth, and air, "gas." And what did he say for ether? "Space." So we thought, we were wondering if these were acceptable terms to use.

Prabhupāda: That you can do.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I, actually I discussed this point last time, but still I want to make it clear. The difference between life and matter again...

Prabhupāda: Life and matter, is, we already explained very clearly. There is no symptom of matter in life. Everything is detailed. Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi. Negative way. "It is not this."

Room Conversation -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Devotees: Yes, jaya, mercy.

Prabhupāda: Food, diet, living condition, healthy, hygienic, everything. You prove that this is the best way of life. That's a fact. From all sides, prove that Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential for the human society, to make them happy in this and the next life. That is a fact.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda? Today I want to discuss about the manifestation of the matter from pradhāna. Now Lord Kapiladeva describes that pradhāna is the undifferentiated sum total of material elements.

Prabhupāda: Mahat-tattva?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, pradhāna. Then from pradhāna, by the action of time this mahat-tattva is generated. Now we were a little confused about that. He said by the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency there is hiraṇmaya, is produced within mahat-tattva, and this hiraṇmaya is self-effulgent.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's effulgent.

Prabhupāda: Hiraṇmaya?

Hari-śauri: Effulgent.

Prabhupāda: Oh, effulgent, yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now our point is whether this hiraṇmaya... In the mahat-tattva, the relationship between these two and pradhāna, how does that relate each other? It's not very clear in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you're not very clear, this point. It said from pradhāna, by the impregnation with the Lord's internal potency, the hiraṇmaya is produced. That's actually the beginning of the injection of jīvas within these material modes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is little complicated. So is it not clear from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is little difficult to understand the phenomenal descriptions.

Prabhupāda: In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta? Nityānanda-tattva? You can read it, you'll get some clue.

Room Conversation -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Pradhāna is the ingredient.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is the sum total of the unmanifested material elements. Now from pradhāna actually mahat-tattva is manifested. In mahat-tattva there is a basic difference that there is some, already some manifestations in mahat-tattva.

Rūpānuga: Categories.

Prabhupāda: Total material elements, mahat-tattva.

Rūpānuga: Is that differentiated?

Prabhupāda: Mahat-tattva is differentiated.

Rūpānuga: Different categories?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The time element is there in mahat-tattva, so it is already twenty-five elements there including time. At this stage also, the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency means that the jīvas are already impregnated here from pradhāna. So here the living entities are in pure goodness.

Prabhupāda: The living entities are always in pure goodness. This material covering is separated. The living entities can be freed from material covering at any moment. Just like water and oil, it is always separated, it does not mix. The Vedic mantra also says asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. Actually, it is not mixed, but it is covered. That covering can be taken away at any moment simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). I think in First Canto, that description you try to understand, you'll get.

Room Conversation -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Fifth Chapter?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: "This chapter is chiefly devoted to describing the essential nature and glories of Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the absolute Personality of Godhead, and His first expansion in a form for pastimes is Śrī Balarāma. Beyond the limitation of this material world is the spiritual sky, paravyoma, which has many spiritual planets, the supreme of which is called Kṛṣṇaloka. Kṛṣṇaloka, the abode of Kṛṣṇa, has three divisions, which are known as Dvārakā, Mathurā and Gokula. In that abode the Personality of Godhead expands Himself into four plenary portions-Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma, Pradyumna (the transcendental Cupid) and Aniruddha. They are known as the original quadruple forms. In Kṛṣṇaloka is a transcendental place known as Śvetadvīpa, or Vṛndāvana. Below Kṛṣṇaloka, in the spiritual sky, are the Vaikuṇṭha planets. On each Vaikuṇṭha planet a four-handed Nārāyaṇa, expanded from the first quadruple manifestation, is present. The Personality of Godhead known as Śrī Balarāma in Kṛṣṇaloka is the original Saṅkarṣaṇa (attracting Deity), and from this Saṅkarṣaṇa expands another Saṅkarṣaṇa, called Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa, who resides in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. By His internal potency, Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa maintains the transcendental existence of all the planets in the spiritual sky, where all the living beings are eternally liberated souls. The influence of the material energy is conspicuous there by its absence. On those planets the second quadruple manifestation is present. Outside of the Vaikuṇṭha planets is the impersonal manifestation of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, which is known as the Brahmaloka. On the other side of the Brahmaloka is the spiritual kāraṇa-samudra, or Causal Ocean. The material energy exists on the other side of the Causal Ocean, without touching it. In the Causal Ocean is Mahā-Viṣṇu, the original puruṣa expansion from Saṅkarṣaṇa. This Mahā-Viṣṇu places His glance over the material energy, and by a reflection of His transcendental body He amalgamates Himself within the material elements. As the source of the material elements, the material energy is known as pradhāna, and as the source of the manifestations of the material energy it is known as māyā. But material nature is inert in that she has no independent power to do anything. She is empowered to make the cosmic manifestation by the glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Therefore the material energy is not the original cause of the material manifestation. Rather, the transcendental glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu over material nature produces that cosmic manifestation."

Prabhupāda: So you try to understand this, everything will be clear. Material energy has no power to create. It is this glance that makes material energy energetic. Chemical combination, that alkaline and acid, they create some agitation, effervescence, but it is done by the chemist. He mixes the two liquids and there is effervescence. It is like that. So you read that chapter carefully. You'll solve your problem.

Room Conversation -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is..., Sadāpūta has an interesting point in science itself, that somebody tried to show that in the living body, when life is within matter, the ah, it doesn't follow the conservation of matter. Science, one of the basic principles of science is that...

Prabhupāda: No, no. All the living conditions are there in the matter, provided there is the living being, that's all. Just like a dead body, it is not that the living condition is finished, no. The living conditions are there. That particular soul has left that body. But the dead body is also full of ingredients of living condition. So many germs are coming out when the body is decomposed. You say decomposition, but even in that decomposed condition there is living condition. So the living conditions are already there, matter in any form. So how these rascals say there is no life in the moon planet? That is not possible. The living conditions are always there in the matter. This is the example. Now, a decomposed body, the living being has left, now it is dead matter, but still, the living beings are coming out. How it is? That means matter has always the potency to give shelter to the living entity. So it is impossible that there is no living being in the moon planet. It is bogus. We cannot accept it. Any condition there is provision for the living beings. We see actually, in the earth, in the air, in the water, in the fire, these five elements. Whatever you take, these five elements in different proportions. So the living..., just like from perspiration living entities come out. It is impossible there is no living entities. That is bogus complete. You can challenge like that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The living entities that they are familiar with.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Kūpa-māṇḍūkya-nyāya. They knew some certain type of living entities, that's all.

Interview with Religious Editor Of the Associated Press -- July 16, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: So, if you take attention of the car and you do not know anything about the driver, then what is your knowledge?

Interviewer: I didn't quite get the question.

Bali-mardana: If you pay attention to the car without paying attention to understanding who the driver of the car is, what is the driver, then what is the use of your knowledge? In other words, the driver is the living entity or the soul and the car is this body, the material elements of this material world including the body. So without understanding who you are, who the living entity within the body or the driver within the car, then what is the use of your knowledge of the material elements without understanding who you are?

Interviewer: Well, since this dichotomy appears to be the case, I mean that there is, that the movement is sort of cut off from the world in general, does that not deprive the world of the service, of the usefulness of these people?

Prabhupāda: First of all, if you do not understand what is the movement then how you can give your verdict like that? First of all, try to understand what is this movement.

Interviewer: The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Society.

Prabhupāda: Then what is that Kṛṣṇa movement? That Kṛṣṇa movement is, just like to understand the driver.

Morning Walk -- July 20, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Why the atmosphere changed? There was water? Why the atmosphere changed? (break) ...is water, there must be vegetation. So where those vegetation gone? All false propaganda. Even in the sea you'll find seaweed. Is it not? So as soon as there is water, there must be vegetation. And without water, sand does not come. If there is sand, there is water, there is vegetation.

Hari-śauri: So if there was originally an atmosphere, why is it not there now?

Prabhupāda: These are all rascal, "atmosphere." What atmosphere? Whole world is made of these material elements. Why the atmosphere should be different? Maybe more or less; that is another thing. Just like in the Western country it is very cool and the Eastern it is country hot. But that does not mean everything is changed.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: On this planet we have certain elements, like iron, water, or sand. Could there be other elements on other planets, new elements?

Prabhupāda: No. No.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Same elements.

Prabhupāda: More or less. Just like in the heavenly planets it is said that the roads are built with pearls. So there is more pearl. Here is also. The pearl quantity is there. Therefore they pave on the road.

Interview with Religion Editor of The Observer -- July 23, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: It is fact.

Cline Cross: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Because, just like anything, creation means the mother, the father and the children. That is our practical experience. Without mother, we are nowhere. We are given birth by the mother. So the material nature is the mother. From the material nature, material elements, everything is coming. From the water the fishes are coming, from the land the grass, the worms, and then human being, they are coming. From the air also living entities are coming. So therefore material nature is the mother, and we have come out of the material nature, therefore we are children. Then there must be father, because without father, simply mother cannot give birth. This is science. You cannot deny the existence of God simply by a false argument. This is real argument. The mother is there, material nature, and we are children there. There must be father.

Cline Cross: In England, the Christian Church in recent years or recent decades has been doing very badly and losing support. Your teaching could perhaps provide a substitute for the more traditional type of Christian teaching.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the science. Therefore I say religion without scientific idea, that is sentiment. It has no value. This is basic principle of religion that the mother is there, the children are there—there must be father. If you say "I do not see what is God," it doesn't matter. Sometimes the child after birth does not see his father. But that does not mean that he has no father, because without father there is no possibility of his existence.

Radio Interview -- July 27, 1976, London:

Mike Robinson: Would you..., in your opinion, is it impossible for somebody to be a scientist and not to believe in God?

Prabhupāda: Unless he's a rascal, he cannot say that. Scientifically, you have to accept God. You cannot deny God. Just like the example I have given sometimes, just like you see there are so many living entities, beginning from grass, or anything. There are so many living entities coming out of the material elements. Some of them are coming from water, some of them coming from land, some of them coming from air.... (break) There is life in fire also. So the material nature is giving birth to so many living entities. So if the material nature is the mother and all these living entities are children, then where is the father?

Mike Robinson: I don't know. The father is God.

Prabhupāda: There. You must know there must be father. I may know, not know him, but without father the children cannot be brought into existence. This is science. First of all, try to understand this. The mother is there, the children are there. So there must be father. This is scientific. So who is that rascal scientist who can say "No, there is no father"? Then he's not a scientist, he's a rascal. How you can deny the existence of father? You may not see him or may see Him, it doesn't matter. There must be father. This simple understanding.

Evening Darsana -- August 11, 1976, Tehran:

Hari-śauri: From a tree.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And wherefrom the tree has come?

Hari-śauri: From the ground.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Hari-śauri: So the material elements are already there and...

Prabhupāda: Bīja, bīja. Bījāhaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. You sow the seed, there will come out a tree, and from that tree there will be big trunk and you cut the tree, then you get wood.

Hari-śauri: That's all right, that's agreed.

Prabhupāda: But that is real, that is intelligence, that wherefrom the tree has come.

Harikeśa: But this has been going on eternally.

Hari-śauri: But the material elements are there, and they just evolve into different shapes and forms.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the original creation is there.

Harikeśa: No, no, it has eternally been going on.

Prabhupāda: Eternally is going on, but the process is here. Eternally this man is born, that does not mean you were not born by your father. You deny your father, eternally born. You must have particular knowledge. Don't talk like that. Eternally, eternally father gives birth, that's a fact. But there must be father. Eternally father is giving birth to a child, that's a fact. Eternally birth is going on, that does not mean denying the father. The father is the cause. Anything law, that is going on eternally, there is no question of... Nature's law is going on eternally. That is a fact.

Evening Darsana -- August 11, 1976, Tehran:

Hari-śauri: But if the material elements are there and they're...

Prabhupāda: We are talking of the process. Things are going on eternally, there is no doubt about it. The process is also eternal, but we have to study the process.

Hari-śauri: But that's their argument, that the process is just happening by itself, there's no father. They say the process is that the elements are just there.

Prabhupāda: And there is no father. And he has no father, the rascal who is talking? He has no father? Immediately beat him with shoes. (laughter) The rascal, you are talking, you have got your father. Beat him with shoes immediately on his mouth.

Jñānagamya: They say for a plant, ground is necessary, water is necessary, seed is necessary, air is necessary, so why is it that there is only one cause?

Prabhupāda: From the one everything is coming.

Jñānagamya: Why isn't it coming from several sources? Instead of one source, why not several sources?

Prabhupāda: That, he has no intelligence. Just like government has so many departments. But original is the king. The departments are only facilities for functioning. But the origin is the king, government. Because there are different departments, there is no king. This is rascaldom. They are rascals, simply rascals. There is no solid argument against.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Darsana and Room Conversation Ramkrishna Bajaj and friends -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: When I went to your MIT, I challenged that "Where is that technological department where a dead man can be brought into life?" It was interesting speech. The students gathered. This body is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā as machine. Do you know that? This body is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā as machine. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā.

īśvaraḥ sarva bhūtānāṁ
hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
bhrāmāyan sarva bhūtāni
yantrārūḍhāni māyayā
(BG 18.61)

Just like you make a tour by driving a motorcar, similarly, the jīvātmā is touring all over the universe riding on this machine. This is machine. So... Aiye aiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guest enters) (Hindi) Aiye. We have arranged for your prasāda. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. This is machine. This body is machine made by the material energy, as all other machine are made by the kṣitir-āp-tejo marud-vyoma, earth, water, air, fire. These are the ingredients, any machine. Suppose it is made of iron. So iron is another form of earth. So as all other machines are made with these material elements, similarly, this body is also made with the material elements, and it is yantra. It is particularly mentioned. But this yantra is not ordinary yantra. You cannot make it. But it is yantra. It is made by somebody, and the ingredients are the material elements. So where is that technology? It is made of matter, and it is made by somebody as other machines are made with the material... (break) ...and made by somebody. So where is that advancement of technology? A motorcar, when stops, technology department can repair it and again it runs. So where is that advancement of technology that when this machine stops you run on, again repair it? This was my challenge in your institution. Can you answer this? You have got so many advancement, the nuclear energy and everything. But why you cannot give life to the machine stopped? Why?

Guest (1) (Indian man): There's no soul in it.

Morning Walk -- February 1, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. So they're coming around. When we say life is nonphysical and nonchemical, this is very touchy word which they don't like to hear in the beginning.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, "nonphysical." Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ, nainaṁ śoṣayati āpaḥ (BG 2.23). Everything, five elements, material... It has nothing to do with these five elements, clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā. It is beyond this. Here whatever you find is kṣitir āpaḥ tejaḥ marud vyomā: earth, water, air, fire. That's all. But beyond that, it is not physical. And at last, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Everything is there. So I was confident in the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore I strongly stressed, "This is all wrong." I believed completely in the words of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. I never experimented. But I know what Kṛṣṇa says is completely right.

Morning Walk -- February 1, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That makes our statement very valid.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātmā... Super-ātmā is the source of ātmā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can explain everything, all..., but cannot explain by science.

Prabhupāda: That is the Bhagavad-gītā, Seventh Chapter, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā: (BG 7.4) "They are also My energy, and beyond this, there is superior energy." Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho (BG 7.5). Both of them, energies, the material elements and the spiritual element, both of them are different energy of the supreme ātmā. So one is superior; another is inferior. Because we are superior, we are controlling the inferior energy, and by such control, from inferior energy matter, we have created this motor car. Therefore I am superior.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the West, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Western philosophy...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This subject matter is called "mind-body problem." The mind sometimes they compare as spirit or soul in some Western philosophical circles.

Prabhupāda: Because they are not yet advanced. Beyond the mind there is intelligence, and beyond the intelligence there is the soul.

Room Conversation about BTG the Moon -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Hm? That is your experience. Śāstra says there is life, agni-paḥ.

Hari-śauri: But if we go on just practical experience like you were saying...

Prabhupāda: What is your, your practical ex...? You are rascal. You have no practical experience. If there is life in the water, if there is life in the air, if there is life within the earth, why not in the fire? It is also one of the elements. Why you discard only fire? There are five elements: earth, water, air, fire, ether. So if there is life in the earth, in the water, in the air, in the ether, what fire has done there should be no life?

Hari-śauri: But we see. The water's here. The earth's here. We see the life in there. We agree.

Prabhupāda: Your seeing is imperfect.

Hari-śauri: But the fire is here, and there's no life in the fire.

Prabhupāda: No. You cannot see. That is your imperfect... You should conclude from the general experience, that "Here there is life; there must be... We cannot." But what do you see? Just like they have taken photograph. What is that photograph? Suppose if you take a photograph of the ocean, can you see any life? The life is within. What is the use of your photograph? Your everything is imperfect. You cannot say anything final. And you are imperfect, your senses are imperfect; whatever you have got, that is imperfect. If Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham, then Kṛṣṇa is there.

Room Conversation with Adi-kesava Swami -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: It is condemned. My position is different. Why shall I die? The rascals, they agree to die. We do not agree to die. We want to come to our original position, no more death. This is our motto, because we get information from the Bhagavad-gītā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). I do not die on account of my material body mixed up... "Dust thou art; dust thou beist." This body is made of five elements: earth, water, air, fire, ether. And this is my gross body. The gross body is finished, but my mental, subtle body—mind, intelligence—that is not yet finished. That is carrying me to another body. Just like we have got practical experience. I am sitting here, you are sitting here. Mind carries me to New York, and I am now dreaming or thinking I am sitting in that room and talking with somebody. I have forgotten this, but... It is practical. Although I am sitting here, I have forgotten it, and I am working, thinking myself that I am in New York. Similarly, in dream my body is on the bed. I am thinking I am on the Himalayan top. So as it is possible even in this body, similarly, I get another body, gross body. Then I forget this body. This is transmigration. I have explained it. This is the factual. Everyone can experience. I have got a period of remaining in this body. So as soon as this period is finished I get..., I create another body and enter it. And because the period is not finished, although in dream I am getting another body and going to the Himalaya, top, or I'm going to my New York apartment, still, I have to come back because period is not finished. Simple thing. This is transmigration. Why I shall be put into this condition because my original position is eternal? Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). That we are teaching to the whole world: "Why you are suffering with this body? Get out of the body." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is the best welfare activity to the human society, but because they are so dull, they cannot understand. Mūrkhāṇām upadeṣo hi prako... If first-class rascal is advised, he thinks otherwise, that "He is bothering me." So what can be done? We have taken this daṇḍa, we have accepted service of Kṛṣṇa, and if He has ordered that "You preach this philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā.

Evening Darsana -- February 26, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Acchedyaḥ, yes. Acchedyo 'yam. Now, chedya means which can be cut by... Just like this is wood. It can be cut by the saw. This can be separated. Then? Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam. Adāhyaḥ. The wood can be burned. So it is denying, that "The soul cannot be cut and it cannot be burned." Then?

Harikeśa: Akledyaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Akledyaḥ, that... The wood, if you put into the water, it will be moist. But it is not... Soul never becomes moist. That means the five elements—earth, water, air, fire, ether—all these five elements can be cut, can be moistened, can be burned, can be dried up. But he is giving negative definition that "Soul cannot be done like that." So therefore it is not fallible, material.

Indian (3): Will you preach to your Gītā... (break)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) The people cannot accept... (laughs) Therefore I said, dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're too restless.

Jayatīrtha: Adhīra.

Prabhupāda: And therefore I say that education has been so wrongly given that they are restless like animals due to the modern civilization. The beginning of spiritual education they cannot accept. What they will make, further progress of spiritual life? Beginning, ABCD, they are so restless, they cannot take. This is the position. Therefore I'm speaking that it is meant for the dhīra, for the rājarṣi. Not for the men who are like animals. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Their bodily conception is so strong that they cannot hear even what is said. They are so dull. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyāḥ (SB 1.1.10).

Room Conversation -- March 26, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So you cannot deny, "There is no God." That is not possible. The earth is the mother. They say "mother country," "mother earth." And everything is coming out from the earth. Beginning from the aquatic animals, grass, they are coming from material elements, either from water or from earth. That we can see. And they are coming from fire also, but we cannot see. But they are. It is common sense. If life can come from water, fire... Fire is also one of the elements, five elements. So from fire also... Therefore it is said, nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. Because it is coming from fire, therefore fire cannot harm the living entity. So mother is there, children are there. Where is the father? This is the logic. And the father is coming personally, "Yes, I am father." Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). Then where is the chance for denying the existence of father? No. There is no chance, there is no logic. And the father is so rich, so powerful, so kind. And you are not taking shelter of your father. Your actual father, so great, so rich, so intelligent, so opulent. He promises, "My dear son, you surrender, I will give you all protection." He is giving protection. Still, He is assuring, and, still you will not take shelter? That is intelligent? That is envy. Everyone can take. Everyone is suffering for misuse of their intelligence, denying the authority of God. And everyone can take advantage. We are giving them knowledge. Without any exception, everyone can take. This is our line. Accept the father, the bona fide father. Take protection from Him. He is able to give you everything. Why you are suffering? What is the logic?

Hari-śauri: They are just stubborn.

Room Conversation with Ratan Singh Rajda (Member of Parliament) -- March 27, 1977, Bombay:

Mr. Rajda: Unless there is adhyātmika adjustment, there cannot be lasting benefit.

Prabhupāda: The difficulty is... That we do not know. Just like you take a fish from the water and put it on the land. It will never become happy. Again you throw him in the water, he will feel happy. So the living entity is different from prakṛti. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly stated, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtim. These material elements, earth, water, air, fire, ether, mind, intelligence, ego, these are gross and subtle material elements. And the living being, jīva-bhūta, is superior than the inferior material elements. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. Parā-prakṛti, it is part and parcel of God. Unless we understand this fact, which is very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, this material adjustment will never make us happy.

Mr. Rajda: As far as this change is concerned, the basic difference is formerly there was no moral code observed by the rulers.

Prabhupāda: It can deteriorate at any moment.

Mr. Rajda: That interpretation is there, that is there.

Prabhupāda: You cannot say...

Mr. Rajda: If the rulers, they have got faith in dharma...

Prabhupāda: They have no faith. That is the difficulty. They talk of God, talk of religion, but they do not know what is God, what is religion. That is going on. You may be or I may be. We do not know what is the identity of the living entity. Then where is the question of religion?

Mr. Rajda: No, in the last rulers, most of them were Communists, but they said that religion is opium. They say religion is opium. They didn't believe in religion at all.

Room Conversation with Scientists, Svarupa Damodara, and Dr. Sharma -- March 31, 1977, Bombay:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The real scientists, they must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise he cannot be a scientist.

Prabhupāda: No. The real thing he does not know. We know. We know on the basis of śāstra, authorities, ācāryas, so many. And what is your support? Your support is yourself. Then everyone will do that. His support is himself. Everyone will become authority. "I think, I believe." What is this nonsense, your belief? These things should be stopped now. (Hindi) Misleading, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). These conditioned souls, very stringently bound up hands and legs by the laws of nature, they are trying to lead the human society. This rascaldom must be stopped. You do not know. Say you do not know. That's all. Why you mislead others? Giving them false knowledge. If you do not know even the distinction between the living entity and the material elements... You are trying to prove the living entity is also combination of these material elements, chemicals. Such a rascal you are. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedam (BG 7.5). It is very important thing. You do not know anything about it. Kṛṣṇa again says, nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi. Negative definition. Still, you are so rascal, you do not understand, and you are misleading innocent persons. So combine together as many as possible and go and challenge.

Morning Conversation -- April 30, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Earth, planet earth, fell down.

Prabhupāda: This is like that. So you have to, as far as possible... If you can you have to demonstrate, "This is planetary system." So at least we shall show what is going on within this universe. And above... And each universe is covered with seven material elements. Each covering is ten times more than the other covering, earth, water, air, fire. A wonderful creation. And how it will be shown? So I have decided, therefore, that let us show something about this planetary, er, this universe. And others, we give idea. How it will be done, you think over as far as possible. (laughs) It is not these rascals' calculation, that every planet is rock and sand, and God had no business to create so many planets of rocks and sands to be discovered scientifically by these rascals' attaining them. Just see the fun, how far the godless men can dare to speak and think. How great rascals they are! Simply to deny the existence of God, that's all. That is their business. And the creation has no brain, asatyam. Anīśvaram: "There is no God. It is all false." Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8).

Evening Darsana -- May 9, 1977, Hrishikesh:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (laughter) And we want to be happy. Tri-tāpa-yantana,(?) three types of miseries, are always there. So Kṛṣṇa, when took charge of teaching him, the first lesson was that "Arjuna, you have talked like a very learned man, but you are not learned."

aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ
prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase
gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca
nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ
(BG 2.11)

"You are taking care of the body, which is a lump of matter, combination of five elements—earth, water, air, fire—and you are concerned with this nonsense matter. You have no information of the real thing. And you are talking as a learned...?" This is the first. And then He said that "Actual person is within the body." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam... (BG 2.13). So as we are changing body in this status, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, similarly, when you give up this body, you get another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. So if you are destined to change your body, then where is your nationalism? (Hindi) If you have to change your body... Today you are Indian. Tomorrow you become Pakistani. Then again fight.

Conversations with Kirtana Groups -- May 29, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: There is no question of... That small amount is sufficient, according to the circumstance. Just like in the desert they don't require much water, the camels. Once drunk, they can go on the desert for three days. You cannot do that. There is water. Otherwise how watermelon is coming?

Brahmānanda: Even the cactus plants, they're able to grow, and they store the water...

Prabhupāda: Everywhere there are these... These rascals, they do not know. Everything is there, every planet.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The five gross elements is present all the...

Prabhupāda: Kṣitir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ. Must... (aside:) Give me. Give me that.

Indian devotee (4): Still down?

Prabhupāda: Hm. (break) Everywhere there is life, there is everything, varieties. Here you see in the water there is life, in the land there is life, in the air there is life, within the silicate there is life. So many, many millions. These crabs... What is called?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Crab.

Prabhupāda: How they are living? As soon as you walk, they go within the sand.

Discussions with Devotees and Conversation with Dr. Ghosh -- June 1, 1977, Vrndavana:

Harikeśa: When we finish this description, our understanding of this description of the universe, and present it to the scientists and to the world, people will become astounded.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) (loud fan noise) What is that jīva-bhūta? They are living entities. Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bā... Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat. Without that these jīva-bhūta, these material elements are developed? Where is that? Find out this verse.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Gītā?

Prabhupāda: Read it.

Jagadīśa:

apareyam itas tv anyāṁ
prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām
jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho
yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat
(BG 7.5)

"Besides this inferior energy, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities, who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe." Purport?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Talk with Svarupa Damodara -- June 20, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Satya śamo damo titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva... (BG 18.42). Where is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Dr. Kapoor, your Godbrother? There's an article that was published in Back to Godhead. So he proves that spirit can be brought out of matter, provided that the bhakti, the brāhmaṇa, the person, develops brahminical qualities to the point of purity. And he uses the example of Prahlāda Mahārāja, that because Prahlāda Mahārāja had developed such a pure love for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa came out of a material element, the pillar, to prove Himself: "Here is God." So spirit came right out of matter. So Dr. Kapoor used the point that if you want to see spirit, qualify yourself. Then you'll be able to see spirit. You can make spirit come right out of matter.

Prabhupāda: That is sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually that's a good example, that, the one that we are using, same simile, that in order to study this life being nonphysical, so the experiment also has to be nonphysical, not that directly we observe just like any other material experiment. So those conditions necessary have to be fulfilled in order to conduct this experiment. So they become very quiet. The audience doesn't..., becomes serious, at the same time quiet. Let them think, "Yes, these things are part of the clear thinking and at very high level." So that since these experiments are nonphysical, the conditions necessary must be very subtle. And the... Because the diet that man eats also plays a very important role, and the brain has to be very clean, and the habit must be very clean. Otherwise these experiments...

Prabhupāda: Anartha-nirvṛttiḥ. This is called anartha-nirvṛttiḥ. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ tato bhajana-kriyā, atha anartha-nirvṛtti syāt (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). Ceto-darpaṇa-marjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ-stho abhadrāṇi (SB 1.2.17). These are abhadrāṇi. Vidhunoti.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: You have so mercifully given us so many wonderful instructions, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If we can develop just fraction of it...

Prabhupāda: That is your deci... I can suggest fundamental principles. Now you can develop, as you have already begun. So they are accepting this scientific...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.

Page Title:Material elements (Conversations)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, Mayapur
Created:30 of Mar, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=89, Let=0
No. of Quotes:89