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Material bodies (Conv. 1968 - 1975)

Conversations and Morning Walks

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Radio Interview -- March 12, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Actual identity is that you are spirit soul. And this material body is your covering. Just like dress. Just like when you dress, the real body is there. Similarly, we are within this material body. So we are taking more care for the dress and not for the body actually. But when a body is dead we can understand that there is something missing. That missing thing is the soul. In the modern educational field there is no department of knowledge to understand that what is that missing part. There are so many theories, but they are not practical. Therefore we have to understand the soul and its constitution from authoritative scriptures like Bhagavad-gītā. Then we can understand our identity actually. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that persons who are identifying themselves with this material body, they are not actually human beings. They are counted amongst the asses and cows. So that is ignorance or illusion.

Morning Walk at Stow Lake -- March 23, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: First thing is that calculation of Candra, moon planet, there are different views. Different scientists, they have different views. It is not a standard. They have not agreed to the... Somebody says something, somebody says another thing. Speculation. That's all. But that idea, that it is very low in temperature, that is mentioned in Bhāgavata. You cannot live in the water. You have to qualify yourself. (Sound of ducks). Just see. Their body is made just suitable for the water. So you have to qualify yourself. That is... Just like, in the spiritual sky they can live only spiritual body, and material body cannot live there. Material body is not allowed there. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ (BG 14.18). Those who are too much passionate, they are meant to live in this planet. This planetary system, status. There are many other planets like this world. So they are allowed to live here. Here all living entities, they are very much passionate. And adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ. And there are other planets, they are dark, dark planets, below this earthly planet. And the animals, they are in darkness. Although they're on this park, but they do not know where they are, darkness. Their knowledge is not developed. This is the result of the modes of ignorance. And those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are neither in darkness, nor in passion, nor in goodness. They are transcendental. So if one cultivates Kṛṣṇa consciousness nicely, he is at once promoted to the Kṛṣṇaloka. That is wanted. You are all chanting sixteen rounds? No? (laughs)

Questions and Answers -- September 6, 1968, New York:

Devotee: When they perform these miracles, (indistinct) that is with their material body? Their material body (indistinct)?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes?

Devotee: Why do you say that Jesus Christ performed so many miracles when he (indistinct), and you never said that Kṛṣṇa performed any miracles. When Kṛṣṇa lifted up Govardhana Hill, nobody said that was a miracle. But when Jesus Christ made so many things, they say it's a miracle. How is that?

Prabhupāda: The difference is that in Vṛndāvana they are pure devotees. They knew that "Oh, this is not a miracle for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa can do anything and everything." So they were not surprised. If I lift one mountain, you will be surprised because you know that "Swamiji is man. How he is lifting?" But they know that Kṛṣṇa is all-powerful. So there was no surprise. It is just like natural work. They were so much affectionate to Kṛṣṇa that... He was not only lifting. Every day He was doing so much great performances, and His boyfriends, they would come home, and they would narrate the story to their mothers, "Oh, mother, today Kṛṣṇa performed like this. There was a great demon, and He killed him immediately."

Room Conversation about Marriage -- September 24, 1968, Seattle:

Prabhupāda: Of course, so long we have got this material body, some material consideration must be there. (chuckles) That is not possible to avoid completely.

Devotee (1): They shouldn't force her to get married, though. That was kind of a bad choice that they gave her, "Either get married or don't come on saṅkīrtana." You can't force somebody.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that wasn't the situation. It was not that choice.

Devotee (1): What? You can't... I mean to say that you can't force somebody to get married. You know. That isn't proper.

Prabhupāda: There was no force. There was no force. Only proposal. That's all. When it was proposed before me, I also said, "It depends on the choice." So anyway, go on with your work, saṅkīrtana movement you have started. It is very nice. And it is being responded. So increase it. If simply brahmacārīs can do it, that is best.

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Prabhupada Listening to Recording of His Own Room Conversation with Students -- April 25, 1969, Boston:

Student (4): But does this go on and on indefinitely or does it stop? Do you just keep changing bodies indefinitely or does it end?

Prabhupāda: Not indefinitely. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you haven't got to change this material body. You are transferred to the spiritual world. There is eternal body.

Student (4): Oh. Does everyone go there or only some?

Prabhupāda: It is accepted that everyone goes. But if somehow you are stubborn to remain here, how one can help? (laughter) Just like the university is open for everyone. But somebody is stubborn to go to the prison department. So how the government can help? Government does not say that "Some selected people come to the university, and others go to the prison department." It is open for everyone, but it is the particular mentality—one is going to the university; one is going to the prison house. That is your individual independence. That is your choice. Just like so many students, they have come here. Others have not come here. So everyone has got little independence. So everyone can go to the spiritual world if he likes. But if he does not like, he will remain here. That is his choice.

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 11, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Allen Ginsberg: Yes, he apparently fits into, in the West what is called the Gnostic tradition, which has similar ideas and similar bhakti attitudes to the Buddhist and Hindu traditions. Similar cosmography, cosmology. He was my teacher.

Prabhupāda: He did not give much stress on this material body.

Allen Ginsberg: No! At the end of his life, he didn't count on the material body.

Prabhupāda: So, there is a spiritual concept of life in his poetry.

Hayagrīva: Blake died on chanting. I don't know what he was chanting but he died singing.

Allen Ginsberg: He died singing.

Prabhupāda: Ahh.

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:
Prabhupāda: So they think that "I am cheating the state, I am cheating God, and I can go on gratifying my senses by all these activities," but that is stated in the śāstra as garhitā. Garhitā means it is not beneficial for you." Na sādhu mānye yato ātmano 'yam. In another place it is said, "These kinds of activities, vikarma, is not good ultimately." Na sādhu mānye yato ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Although ātmā, the self, is different from this body—that is the first lesson in spiritual life—still, this body, although temporary, but as soon as you accept this material body you will have to suffer according to the body. If you get a dog's body you suffer according to that. If you get a man's body... Suffering will be there more or less as soon as you get this material body. Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva said, na sādhu mānye: "You are acting abominable. It is not good because you are already suffering in this body." Otherwise why you are stealing? You are in want of money. You are suffering. Therefore necessity is now law. Therefore you are accepting. Even you know that stealing is bad, still, you are accepting it because that is a suffering. So for some of your activities in the past life you are now suffering, and if you go on, continuing committing this nonsense, then you will again, you will have to again accept a body and you'll suffer.
Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: ...your devatā finished. But your relationship with Kṛṣṇa will never finish-nityo nityānāṁ—because you are nitya, Kṛṣṇa is nitya. That relationship, we have to reestablish that relation. That is the function of the human body. If you are simply busy with this temporary nature, then you are losing time. The temporary relationship will... Just like I came here; now, tomorrow I am going. So, say, for fortnight the relation was there. Now you'll have another relation. Similarly, after this body I do not know what relation, what father, mother, I will get and what relation will be established. What community will be established I do not know. And then I will forget. Now those who are Indian, but suppose in his last birth he was Chinaman. He has forgotten. Now he's fighting for India's cause. If the Chinaman is fighting for China's cause. This is disease. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). We are ready to serve all the dayitas(?), but eternal servitude is Kṛṣṇa. That we have to establish. Then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). Then, after leaving this body, he has no more to accept this material body and create another society, another family, another relationship, another atmosphere. So because we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, in Kṛṣṇa society, therefore we are dividing.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur:

Prabhupāda: Liberated means at the present moment under this material, in this material world, he is accepting material body, and when he is bona fide servant of Kṛṣṇa, he'll be offered a spiritual body. Just like a soldier. A person, so long he's not a soldier, he does not, he is not awarded the uniform. But as soon as he accepts the service as a soldier, immediately he is given the uniform. So you are accepting different bodies in the material world, and that is bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You are accepting one type of body, it is becoming vāṇīshed, again you have to accept another. But as soon as you become perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), then, after leaving this body, he does not come to this material world. He is immediately... Mam eti, he transfers. Similarly, he accepts spiritual body. Is it clear or not? You are accepting material body now, birth after birth. Is it not? That is transmigration. Sometimes you are accepting human body, sometimes you are accepting dog's body, sometimes you are accepting king's body, sometimes you are accepting somebody else. Is it not? Is it clear?

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur:

Prabhupāda: First of all, try to clear this. Now, you are accepting different types of body. Is it not a fact?

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now when you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, you haven't got to accept a material body. You go directly to Kṛṣṇa and accept spiritual body. Then your life is eternal.

Guest: Then again he will not get material...?

Prabhupāda: No. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). When you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no more accepting material body. Mām eti. And mām eti means whoever goes to Kṛṣṇa, he has as good a body as Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness.

Guest: Then what does it mean when Kṛṣṇa has told Arjuna, in the battlefield that "Do you think either you or I were not there in the past? And you and I will not be...?"

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna existed. You are existing. You are eternal. You are simply changing body. So Kṛṣṇa is existing; you are also existing. What is the difficulty to understand this fact? Kṛṣṇa is existing and you are also existing. You are simply changing body, but Kṛṣṇa is not changing body. That is the difference.

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur:

Guest: I told that... You have told...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Soul is changing body. Why you are talking of merging? You are changing body, you are individual. I am changing body. I may change to a dog's body, you may change to a demigod's body. That is going on. According to one's karma, he is changing body. Now, when you are Kṛṣṇa conscious fully, this change of body will take place also, but that body will be spiritual. So long you get material body, you have to change, one after another, one after another, one after another. Just like if you have a cheap thing, it goes wrong, you have to purchase another new thing. But if you purchase a real, nice thing it will go, continue for good. Similarly, so long you are getting this cheap body, material body, you have to change. And as soon as you get the most valuable body, spiritual body, there will be no more change. Why don't you understand like that? So that you have to get. That is very simple. Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ. One who does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, he thinks that somebody is greater than Kṛṣṇa. But anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa as he is, immediately he gets that permanent body. Simply by knowing Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mam eti (BG 4.9). Is it clear? Yes. So you have to do that. You have simply to understand Kṛṣṇa. The whole problem is solved. (Prabhupāda is pounding on the table, stressing points.)

Room Conversation -- August 17, 1971, London:

Śyāmasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other?

Prabhupāda: No. He is spirit, spiritual identity already. But as we are developing material body, similarly we can develop spiritual body.

Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahma-jyotir, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahma-jyotir is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva soul, and I go to the brahma-jyotir I'm still fallen.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Dr. Weir: Swamiji you'll be glad to know your society like ours is worldwide and not based upon color, creed, or designations

Prabhupāda: Yes, designation means falsely identifying that I am this body. Now the soul is in this body. Next time the soul is in another body. So according to the body we are having designations. As soon as we get American body, I think myself American. Next life, if I get a body of a dog, then I think myself dog, designate. According to the body I create my designations. But one has to become free from all designations. That is called liberated stage. This is own constitutional position. That position is eternal servant of God. That is the real position of every living entity. But because at the present moment the living entity is in contact with matter, so according to the material modes of the body, he's identifying himself with this body. That is called material designation. "I am American." "I am Englishman." "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." "I am this." "I am that." These are all designations. So real perfection of life is without designations. And that is the real constitutional position. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). Actual, position of the living entity (indistinct) So that is the perfection of life. And human life is especially meant for, to come to that transcendental position, without any designations. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose. One should be always thinking of Kṛṣṇa or God. That position is perfect (indistinct). And if one keeps himself in that designation-less position, always thinking of himself, as part and parcel of God, then next life he goes back home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). After quitting this body he does not come back again to take another material body.

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Dr. Weir: This is where you can't get a feeling across by writing a textbook on it. I think...

Prabhupāda: No. One thing is that somebody's concluding that to solve this problem, birth, death, old age, disease, is impossibility. That is one school. Another school (indistinct) that there is possibility of control over the birth, death, old age and disease. So why not this school, who does not say that is impossible. No, there is possible. Just like we follow Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says that tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaun... (BG 4.9). that "Anyone who understands Me, follows Me, he, after quitting this body, no more accept this material body but comes to Me." Now, so long I accept this material body these problems are there, birth, death, old age and disease. Then if I don't accept this material body then these problems are solved immediately.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: That means you become purified of this material body and you regain your spiritual body. Yogam.

Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: Cinmaya-śarīra. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa.

Dr. Singh: This is my friend Śrī Ramakrishna. I just called my wife and another lady (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Cinmaya, cinmaya-śarīra (?) we have got. In the Padma Purāṇa, the length and breadth of this cinmaya-śarīra is given: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (CC Madhya 19.140).

Dr. Singh: This is my wife.

Prabhupāda: Ah, how are you?

Dr. Singh: And this is Mrs. (indistinct), one English friend of ours who is out..., who is...

Prabhupāda: So why are you sitting down?

Dr. Singh: Because I have a little problem in sitting on the floor, but she is all right.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your humbleness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He has taught, therefore, that

tṛṇād api sunīcena
taror api sahiṣṇunā
amāninā mānadena
kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ
(CC Adi 17.31)
(indistinct) because here everyone is puffed up.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Goodness means you can understand things. Knowledge. You can know that there is God, that this world is created by Him, and so on, so on, so many things, actual things. The sun is this, the moon is this, perfect knowledge. Even not perfect, he has got some knowledge. That is goodness. And passion means he identifies with this material body. And he tries to gratify his senses only. That is passion. And ignorance means animal life. He does not know what is God, how to become happy, "why I am in this world." Just like you are taking one animal to the slaughterhouse, it will go. But a man will protest. So this is ignorance. The goat, it is to be killed after five minutes, but if you give him a morsel of grass he's happy, he's eating. Just like a child. You are planning to kill her or kill him, he is happy, he's laughing, because innocent. That is ignorance.

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: So just you follow in their footsteps, my other students, and it will be fulfilled, your desire. We are training to that direction, how to become purified and happy. That is our mission. We want to see everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. But people do not know how to become happy. They do not take the standard path to become happy. They manufacture their own way. That is the difficulty. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam (SB 5.5.1). This advice was given by Ṛṣabhadeva to his sons. "My dear boys, just undergo austerity," divyam, "for transcendental realization." Everyone is going austerity. This boy, I know, he had to go foreign countries to learn this commercial management. So many... So now he's good situated. But everyone has to undergo some austerity for future life. So why not take that austerity for permanent happiness? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena satt... Permanent happiness, you have to purify your existential body. This body, so long you will accept this material body, you'll have to change it. And as soon as you get a spiritual body there is no question of change. Spiritual body you have already. Simply now, due to our material contamination, we are developing material body. But if we associate with spiritual life, then we shall develop spiritual body. The same example I have several times given, that you put the iron rod with fire, it will develop to be fire. Is it not?

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Similarly, this body, if you always keep yourself spiritually engaged, it will act as spiritual, although it is material body. The same example. Iron rod, when it is red hot, it is not longer iron rod, although it is iron rod. You can catch it as iron rod, but touch anywhere it will burn. It has got the quality of fire. Similarly, if you always keep yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you become spiritualized. You'll act spiritually. No more material demands.

Bob: How do I do this?

Prabhupāda: This process, as they are doing. You have seen. These boys are, our six boys, they are now initiated today. It is very simple. You have to follow the four restrictive regulations and chant this beads. Very easy.

Room Conversation -- July 4, 1972, New York:

Prabhupāda: Daily. Every moment.

Bhakti-devī dāsī: But not in the material..., not in the material body?

Prabhupāda: Huh? No in... He has no material body.

Bhakti-devī dāsī: Well in the temple here they have pictures of Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: That is not material. You are seeing material...

Bhakti-devī dāsī: Uh huh.

Prabhupāda: ...because you have got material eyes. Because your, you have got your material eyes, you cannot see the spiritual form. Therefore He kindly appears to be in a material body so that you can see. This is the point. Because He has kindly made Himself just fit for your seeing, that does not mean He is..., that He has material body. Just like President Nixon, if he kindly comes to your house, it does not mean that his position and your position is the same. It is his kindness, out of love, he may come to your house, but that does not mean he is on the same level with you. Similarly, because we cannot see with our present eyes what is Kṛṣṇa, therefore Kṛṣṇa appears before us as painting, as made of stone, as made of wood. And Kṛṣṇa is not different from these paintings and wood because everything is Kṛṣṇa.

Interview -- July 5, 1972, New York:

Prabhupāda: Your real dimension is mentioned there that you are a spiritual atom. The measurement is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. That is the seed, or basic principle. Now, on that small particle of spirit soul we have developed this body. We have got human bodies, other has got the elephant body, other has got the mountainous body, but this is external. The real seed is that one ten-thousandth part of the hair. Similarly, as you have developed this material body under different consciousness, similarly when we give up the material connection we shall develop our spiritual body, and in that spiritual body we shall be able to enter the kingdom of God, back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position. This body you have to give up, today or tomorrow or one hundred years after. You have to give it up. The Bhagavad-gītā says after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), after giving up this body he does not accept any more material body. Then what happens to him? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), he comes to Me. So "He comes to Me" means just like in your country one who comes to you becomes citizen. He must have some particular qualities or conditions fulfilled, then he will be accepted as citizen or immigrant.

Room Conversation and Interview with Ian Polsen -- July 31, 1972, London:

Prabhupāda: The aim is that you must get free from your diseased condition. That should be the aim. It is not the way of life. You must get free yourself from the diseased condition. It is not a way of life; that is a must. If you want to be free from diseased condition, you must treat yourself properly. The treating is... Treatment is you surrender unto God and take to His service. This is simple. You are suffering, that's a fact. Everyone knows. Anyone who has got this material body, he is suffering. Nobody can say, "No, I am not suffering." Is there anybody? The body is meant for suffering, this material body. But because they do not approach the real physician, they think that they have got a material body, and that material body means there are senses, the sense gratification will give him satisfaction. Therefore he's simply after sense gratification, that's all. That is not treatment. That is still more complication.

Interview with the New York Times -- September 2, 1972, New Vrindaban:
Prabhupāda: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." So God is there; that's a fact. Anyone can go back to Him and live an eternal life full of bliss and knowledge simply by knowing about it. When God Himself comes, all great ācāryas, stalwart men accept Him: "Yes, He is God." If we simply understand God, we make a solution to all our problems. What is the problem? Because we are part and parcel of God, we are qualitatively equal with Him. God is eternal, and we are eternal. God is blissful, and we are blissful. God is full of knowledge; we are also full of knowledge. Unfortunately we are hampered by this material body. Therefore our problem is how to get out of this material body and come to our spiritual body. The spiritual body is there, just as our real body is present underneath our shirt and coat. I, you, and every one of us is a spiritual spark, part and parcel of God, and we are placed within a gross and subtle body. When this particular body is finished, we are carried by a subtle body into another gross body. That is called transmigration of the soul.
Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Guest (2): Hypothetical case that...

Prabhupāda: No, nothing hypothetical. Your bondage... Bondage means that birth, death, old age and disease. This is bondage. We are all living entities, part and parcel of God. We are spirit soul. So this is not our business, birth, death, old age and disease. So bondage means so long you'll get this material body you are under this bondage: birth, death, old age, and disease. Because you are very rich man, getting good salary, it does not mean that you will not die, or disease will not attack you. This is bondage. First of all try to understand what is bondage. Bondage and freedom. Bondage means to be subjected to the condition of this material body. That is called bondage. The body may be elephant's body or tiger's body or Brahmā's body or ant's body, but that is bondage. Because as soon as you get a material body you are under this bondage of birth, death, old age and disease. So your problem is how to get out of this bondage, not that to accept the bondage—just like I am bound up by iron shackles—"Let me be bound up by golden shackles." So that is bondage. The people do not know. They are satisfied when they are bound up with golden shackles. That is called ignorance. He feels satisfied when he is locked up with golden shackles. That is called ignorance.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: But, but, that is not (indistinct). If you get another body, naturally the same way of life. Same way of life means this life... This material body means four functions: eating, sleeping, sex intercourse, and defense. So as soon as you take another body, it's the same business (indistinct). It may be dog's life, it may be cat's life, or it may be human life. But the business is the same: eating, sleeping, sex intercourse and defense.

Scholar: And the idea of nirvāṇa, and soul...

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is an... That you have to prepare. That is not for the cats and dogs. That is meant for really human beings, those who are actually executing life as human beings. That is not for the cats and dogs. (pause) All right. Thank you very much.

Morning Walk -- April 26, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They were talking about the temporary existence of the material body.

Prabhupāda: Eh? That is foolishness. That is foolishness. Just like if you go into the sea and if you want to be comfortable. This is foolishness. You cannot be. You are animal of land. If you are put into the water, however, expert swimmer you may be, you'll not be comfortable. That's not possible. So you are spirit soul. You cannot be comfortable in the material world. You can struggle, but that is not possible. And they are simply giving bluff, "In future, we shall, in future." This is rascaldom. They don't admit that it is not possible. They simply give bluff: "In future..." You see. "In future, it will be," we can also accept that, provided you have taken the proper means. But where is your future if you are wrongly directed? A child's future is bright when we see that he's being educated, he's going to school. But when he's playing on the street, where is his future? He has no future. He's wasting his time.

Morning Walk -- May 3, 1973, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So why this should be tolerated? Don't be a doctor of chemist like one of them. Be really doctor of chemist. They must accept. This is the basic, I mean, platform of scientific knowledge. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ (BG 2.18). That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā. What lesson you have taken from Bhagavad-gītā? Antavanta ime dehā. "This material body is perishable, antavantaḥ." Nityasya uktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ: "But the life within this body, that is nitya, eternal." This whole cosmic manifestation is like that, the big body, gigantic body of Viṣṇu, external energy, display of external energy. Make plan how to meet them, how to defeat them. Catch them on their throat. If they say, "I do not know," then "Why you have become professor? Why do you become professor? Why do you become scientist? If you do not know, you learn from me. You become my disciple. I'll teach you. You learn it scrutinizingly with all your knowledge. We shall teach you. Why you evade?" Just the other professor, he does not like to come. Other scientist, he told?

Brahmānanda: The German scientist, he didn't want to come.

Morning Walk -- May 4, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Suppose he knows the cause of cancer. What is the benefit? Neither he can stop cancer, neither a man suffering from cancer, if it is cured, he will live forever. That is not possible. Cancer or no cancer, a man has to die. He cannot check death. The death may be caused, if not cancer, simply by accident you can die. The real scientific research should be how to stop death. That is real scientific. That we are giving. To find out some medicine for some disease, that is not triumph. Real triumph is how to stop disease. That they cannot. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā puts before you the real trouble is this birth, death, old age and disease. That process we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). After giving up this body, no more acceptance of material body. This is real science. (break) ...suffer from cancer. (laughter) They don't suffer from cancer. So they are in better position than the so-called human society. They are creating causes of cancer disease and then making research and taking Nobel Prize. How foolish society it is, this. Why you create the cause of cancer disease? You accept these four principles of life—no meat-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex—there will be no cancer. There will be no cancer.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Paramātmā is not material body. Paramātmā's energy. Just like heat and light is the energy of the sun. The sun is not feeling heat and light. For him, everything is all right. There is no heat in the sun, body of the sun. He doesn't feel any heat. You are feeling heat. Similarly, for Paramātmā there is no such thing: this is material, this is spiritual. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). We hear that He has got different energies. His energy is one. Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā. That is spiritual only. Just like sunshine. That is sunshine. Now we are seeing it is covered with cloud. It is our imperfectness. But there, in the sun, there is no such thing cloud. Experience, practical experience. The sun is not experiencing cloud, although there is cloud. We are experiencing. Similarly, this matter and spirit is for us, not for Him. He, either He comes in so-called material body or spiritual body it is the same. It is the same. For Him it is like that, the same, because it is His energy. He can turn matter into spirit, spirit into matter. That He can do.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the non-living, that has no consciousness.

Prabhupāda: No. That is the difference. That is defined in Bhagavad-gītā. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. That thing which is spread all over your body, that is avināśi, that is eternal. Antavanta ime dehā (BG 2.18). This, what is said... The body is antavantaḥ, perishable. Nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ. And the spirit within the body, that is eternal. That they cannot understand.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we can also say that according to the different shapes of the material bodies and qualities...

Prabhupāda: Different opportunities... Yes. According to consciousness we have got the shape of the body. If you have got dog's consciousness, then you get a dog's body. If you have got a god's consciousness, you get a demigod's body.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is the desire of the spirit soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). Freedom is given. Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you want, you can take." Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ (BG 9.25). Everything is freedom.

Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 13, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Matter is caused by life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, matter grows upon life. Just like why this body has grown upon me? I am the spirit soul. This is māyā. Just like, this is... I have explained in Bhagavad-gītā. I am putting on this overcoat. The overcoat is made according to the size of my body, but I am thinking, "I am overcoat." This is foolishness. Just like I got my hand, therefore this overcoat is made of warm cloth. It has got a hand also. Because originally I have got hand, therefore the overcoat has got a hand. Similarly, originally I am spirit soul, I have got my spiritual body, and the material body has grown, cut according to the body.

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about in mineralogy? Scientists have proven that, for example, mountains are growing by sedimentary activity.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also growing on spirit soul, Supersoul.

Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 13, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the evolution stops when the spirit soul reaches the eternal abode in the spiritual...

Prabhupāda: Yes, when he is no more entangled by a material body. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists have no information that there is evolution after human platform.

Prabhupāda: That is their rascaldom. Therefore I say they are rascals. They have no knowledge; still, they proclaim they are scientists.

Paramahaṁsa: They think that evolution is continuing. They think that the human species will...

Prabhupāda: Yes, evolution... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ (BG 9.25). Progress is going on. That progress, the ultimate progress is yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). That where you're going, you do not return, that is the supreme progress. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. That is the highest perfection. You read Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there. Mām upetya kaunteya punar janma na vidyate. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ (BG 8.15). They have no idea what is the highest perfection of human life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that the material body started from elements, the chemical elements.

Prabhupāda: That we admit also. That we also admit. But on what basis?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And when the spirit soul, when the living entity reaches the human platform, then again goes back to the...

Prabhupāda: Do the rascals believe in the living entity?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they don't say living entity. Bodies.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Paramahaṁsa: Something akin to Buddhism.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 13, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material.

Prabhupāda: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Kṛṣṇa. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. According to the nature's direction I am getting body, I am giving it up, again I am desiring something, I am getting another body. This is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). He is a rascal. He is thinking, "I am this body." Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). This is a yantra, machine. And we are traveling many species of life, all riding on this car, given by nature. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. Māyā has given this vehicle, anywhere wandering, up and down, sometimes demigod, sometimes dog. This is going on. And in this wandering process, if he gets in touch with a devotee, then his real spiritual life begins. Otherwise he has to go on, rotating.

Room Conversation With David Wynne -- July 9, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That is our problem. Either you become rich man or poor man, but you have to undergo. (aside:) Make the light. There is switch. (pause) So our position is that we are in this material world. George has sung that "I am in the material world." Yes, very sensible song. (laughs) He's good boy, realizing, he also... So this material life is not good. Material life is not good in this sense, because you have to change your body. Sometimes good birth, sometimes not good birth. Sometimes Englishman, sometimes cats, dogs. Because after death you'll get a body that will be chosen not by you but by the material nature. You'll create your body by your present activities, and nature will simply award you that body. So, so long we have got this material body, the four kinds of miserable conditions, repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, you have to suffer. Therefore, this human life should be utilized in such a way that we do not become subject to these four tribulations, birth, death, old age and disease. That is perfection.

Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London:

Mr. Wadell: Yes, you cannot live without... You do not, as we say, live by bread alone. And in that sense—it may be the sense in which you wish me to take—the sense, what you are saying, that God supplies bread, because bread could be both bread for the spirit or soul...

Prabhupāda: No, bread is material. Bread is material. To maintain your material body, you require material bread. But spiritual body does not depend on material bread.

Mr. Wadell: Could we go back to the relationship between you or all of us and God? What my own experience has suggested to me is that the language which I use and the language which has been used by others to describe what we think Him to be is not really capable of accomplishing this very difficult task. It is an impossible task in fact because we are describing something which is so immeasurably greater, more difficult to understand fully. We can have a relationship, but I find it, the language which we use, is of...

Prabhupāda: Insufficient.

Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London:

Mr. Wadell: No, no. But what I want to go back to is the reason for disobedience. There are various possible ones. One may first not know what one is supposed to do. Secondly... Is that all right? Do you agree about that?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We do not know anything. We are to be considered all fools and rascals. That is our position. As soon as we come to this material world, accept a material body, we are all fools and rascals.

Mr. Wadell: Do you accept the whole of the material world? Do you think there are some things in it which are wrong?

Prabhupāda: Just like as soon as you come to the prison house, you are all criminals. You may be very intelligent, but because you are in the prison house, you are criminal. Because you are in the prison house, that is the proof that you are a criminal. You may be very intelligent man.

Mr. Wadell: Oh yes, I'm not claiming... I haven't any claim to goodness. You must understand that.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, any living entity, any living entity who is originally part and parcel of God, God is all-good, therefore the part and parcel of God is also all-good. But as soon as comes to the material world, he (break) As exactly like the same, that as soon as one is put into the prison wall, within, he is a criminal. Now he has to undergo the criminal laws. Similarly, because we have come to this material world, we have to undergo the material tribulations. We cannot avoid.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Guest (8): "Best of the asuras."

Prabhupāda: Yes, "best of the asuras." Asura-varya. Varya means the best. And asura... Because his father was demon. So he was calling his father "demon number one." "My dear father, my dear asura-varya..." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām. "Anyone who has accepted this material body..." Dehinām, he has said. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. "They are all full of anxiety." Anyone. Not only human beings, even animals, birds, beasts. You'll see, when a bird is there, he'll always, that, "Some enemy may not come." Even animals. Even tiger is afraid, although he's so powerful. Elephant is afraid. sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Why? Asad-grahāt. "Because they have accepted this material body." Then what is the remedy? Now, hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam, hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). "They should not be satisfied with the society, family and love and this and that. They should take shelter of the lotus feet of Hari. Then they'll be happy." We are trying to be satisfied in this material condition, society, friendship, love and so forth, so on and we are after that. But there, there is no possibility. Unless you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, harim āśrayeta, there is no possibility.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Spiritually, when you get your spiritual body, there is no such material inconveniences. The material inconveniences means so long you have got this material body, you are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. When you revive your spiritual body, these four things are not with you. No more birth, no more death, no more disease, no more old age. This is the difference between spiritual life and material life.

Father Tanner: Yes, I mean, this, I think, anyone who's in any sense spiritual or religious or ethical would admit because the spiritual body has no parts. So it cannot start to be or cease to be and cannot change within his own entity.

Prabhupāda: No, the spiritual body is there already. Just like you have got your body. The coat is made according to your body. You existed first. Your coat was made later on. Similarly, spiritually, we exist eternally. Now, according to our different types of activities, we get a body, material body. There are eight million, four hundred thousand different forms of bodies. So the spirit soul is transmigrating according to his desire and work to different types of body. This is called transmigration of the soul. ...

Father Tanner: You would hold that the spirit is eternal...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Father Tanner: Can they be in opposition?

Prabhupāda: No. When they are in opposition, they have to accept this material body. Just like the citizens in the prison house, it means they are all in opposition to the laws of the state, similarly, anyone who is in this material world, they are in opposition to the supreme will of the Lord. Therefore they are put into this material world in varieties of life. So they can stop that opposition and again go back to home, back to Godhead.

Father Tanner: You'd like to go, would you?

Mrs. Wells: Yes.

Father Tanner: I'm sorry. Mrs. Wells has to go, sir. And you look very tired.

Prabhupāda: No, I am not tired. I am a little old.

Room Conversation with Two Buddhist Monks -- July 12, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: I am coming, yes. (break) ...dehaṁ punar janma naiti. Such person, those who are fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, such person, after giving up this body, does not accept any more material body. He goes back to Kṛṣṇa. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). "He comes to Me." So you cannot go to Kṛṣṇa unless you have your spiritual body. Because the spiritual world and Kṛṣṇa, they are all spiritual. So you cannot enter into fire unless you are fire. So you have to revive your spiritual body, spiritual consciousness. Then, after giving up this body, you enter the spiritual world. So Lord Buddha did not speak anything about the spiritual world, but his philosophy said that "Dismantle this material existence." Nirvāṇa. Nobody has preached that "You become happy here," either Lord Buddha or Lord Christ or Kṛṣṇa or anybody, Śaṅkara. Nobody. But modern materialistic people, they are thinking that "We can become happy by adjustment of our material condition." That is not possible.

Room Conversation with Two Buddhist Monks -- July 12, 1973, London:
Prabhupāda: I'll have to accept a body, and there are eight million... (break) ...you prefer. But Kṛṣṇa says that whichever body we accept, it is subjected to the four miserable conditions: birth, death, old age and disease. Even Brahmā. He has got millions and millions of years duration of life, but still, he has to die. So anywhere in the material world, you have to undergo the material tribulations: birth, death, old age and disease. Here an ant's life may be for few hours, and my life may be for few years. So it is a question of hours and years, but one has to die. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16). "Even if you go to the Brahmaloka, the topmost planet, there also, you'll have to die and again accept another body." This will go on. Mad-dhāma gatvā punar janma na vidyate. "But if you come to Me, then you don't come back to accept a material body again." So why not try for that? If I have to endeavor for my next better life, so why not accept the supermost life, eternal life? That is intelligence, and that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that you try in this life to get back your spiritual life and come back to Kṛṣṇa, the eternal home, and live there peacefully, eternally, without any disturbance of birth, death, old age, disease. This is our program. (Sound of guests coming or leaving) Jaya. (Hindi ) Oh! So whenever you find time...
Room Conversation With David Lawrence -- July 12, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Now, this spirit is eternal. That is the first understanding. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). This spirit is occupying a material body at the present moment. And the next, when this... Just like I am in this apartment. If I find some inconvenience, I go to another apartment. Or the lease is expired, I have to leave it. Some way or other, I change. Similarly, the... You can change your coat. So these are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). Ex..., very nicely exemplified. So we are changing this apartment or dress and accepting another. This is going on. This is the material world. But I, the spirit soul, eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇo na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Find out this verse. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. Second Chapter. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you can introduce, study some Bhagavad-gītā among the students, oh, it will, it will be a great service.

Room Conversation with Lord Brockway -- July 23, 1973, London:

Lord Brockway: I think the only thing I'd say is this, that whilst the body that you have and I have is different from the body, the material body, when we were a child, it has been a continuous transformation. It hasn't been the ending of one body and the beginning of another. And in the process of change, a, an existence is carried on. It isn't like death, which means that at that point your personality becomes separated from your physical body suddenly, like that. It is different.

Prabhupāda: No. We become separated from the physical body, but we remain in the astral body, or subtle body, mind, intelligence... mind, intelligence and ego. That mind, material mind, material intelligence, you give up when you actually remain in your spiritual body. So this is also a great science. But unfortunately, there is no discussion on this point in any university of the world. But this is a science. So actual human civilization means they should study, they should inquire about this science and be well conversant. And that is the human... Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra it is said that human beings should be interested to this science first. Because animals cannot inquire about this science. The animals, they are simply interested how to eat. So similarly, if a man also simply interested in economic development which means how to eat, how to sleep... That is also there in the animal kingdom. They are trying in their own way. But they have no problem. We have created problem. In the morning, we are thinking, "How to get such and such thing?" But a bird, beast, he has no such anxiety.

Room Conversation with Graham Hill Former World Champion Race Car Driver -- London, August 26, 1973:

Pradyumna:

vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya
navāni gṛhṇāti naro 'parāṇi
tathā śarīrāṇi vihāya jīrṇāny
anyāni saṁyāti navāni dehī
(BG 2.22)

"As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones."

Graham Hill: And you go back to Godhead, you go back to home.

Prabhupāda: That is ultimate goal. So long we do not go back to home, back to Godhead, we have to, in our material existence, we have to change from one body to another. That is going on. And there are 8,400,000 forms of bodies. The cats and dogs, they are also living entities, but they have got a different type of body. Every one of us, different type body. Even they are children, their body is different from your body. Even the (indistinct). Although their body is obtained, there are some similarities. But if you analyze very scrutinizingly there will be some difference from your body, from your daughter's body, from your boy's body. So every body, every living entity is getting a certain type of body according to his desire.

Room Conversation with Graham Hill Former World Champion Race Car Driver -- London, August 26, 1973:
Prabhupāda: So that desire means material enjoyment. Just like you have got certain desire to become champion in racing. Another body has got desire to become something else. Another body has got desire for something else. So we have got this freedom by the grace of God or Kṛṣṇa. Because we are children. He has given freedom. "All right, if you want this, take it." In this way our life is going on. This is called birth and death. One chapter you are finishing in one life, next chapter begins another life. Next chapter begins another life. So the problem is birth and death. But nobody wants birth and death. Nobody wants. But it is there on account of our material life. So in material life there are four problems: birth, death, old age, and disease. So long one has to accept a material body, he has to accept these miseries also. Birth is also misery. When the child remains within the womb, in a compact bag... Very precarious condition. We have forgotten, but it is very precarious condition. And for ten months, because he is unconscious at least for seven months he cannot understand. But after seven months when the child becomes conscious, it is very intolerable. He always prays, "Oh, how to get out, how to get out." Then he gets, come out, comes out. Then another life begins.
Room Conversation with Graham Hill Former World Champion Race Car Driver -- London, August 26, 1973:

Śyāmasundara: Spiritual body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is now covered by this material element. So emancipation or salvation means you no more get your material body. But your body is already there. Just like in this body, I have got my body. And because I have got a hand my dress has got a hand. Because I have got a leg, my pant has got a leg. So this superficial, external body is simply covering of your original body. The original body is spiritual. So go back to home back to Godhead means you remain in your original spiritual body. You get freedom from this covering of material body. Now that spiritual body you can transfer to so many ways.

Room Conversation with Graham Hill Former World Champion Race Car Driver -- London, August 26, 1973:

Prabhupāda: Because you are part and parcel of God. God is all spirit. Just like materially, because you have got white body your son has got white body. Similarly, God is all spirit. Therefore you are son of God, part and parcel of God, then you are all spirit. But you have got this material covering because you wanted to come here and enjoy or lord it over the material nature. Everyone is trying to that. Everyone is trying to become a very prominent man in this material world. That is he can lord it over the material nature. So because you desire to lord it over the material nature you have to accept a material body.

Graham Hill: Are all spiritual bodies the same? I mean, is your spiritual body exactly the same as...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Spiritually you are all the same. Just like as human beings you are all the same but you may have a black dress, I may have a saffron dress, he may have white dress. This is outward covering. This is not myself. Similarly, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Within this body the spirit soul is there and he is changing different types of bodies. So when he accepts a process, this going back to home, back to Godhead, to Kṛṣṇa, then he hasn't got to accept any more material body. He remains in his own spiritual body. And spiritual body by original constitution it is eternal. Eternal. Nityaṁ śāśvato 'yam, na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin. This is a description of it.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you accept. That is my point. Now you are studying, you accept. That means you accept there is intelligence. So besides this material body, gross material body, there is a subtle body. Subtle body. Just like besides your coat, there is a shirt, or there is a ganjee (?). Similarly, the soul is covered by the subtle body and the gross body. What is known as death, that is annihilation of the gross body. The subtle body remains there. And the subtle body carries him as he desires. The subtle body carries him to a place where he can again grow another material body according to the desire of the mind.

Guest (1): You mean the subtle body or the soul, the same thing?

Prabhupāda: No, soul is different. Soul is different. Soul is finer than intelligence. These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Then, again they come down to this material world and he takes birth either in a very exalted brāhmaṇa family, śucīnām, or very rich, vaiśya family. After enjoying there, again he's given chance to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And if he misses, then again he goes down. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says these are all false elevation. If I have to come again back, again I have to accept another lower grade life, then what is the profit? Kṛṣṇa gives His straight understanding, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti: (BG 4.9) You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. After the giving up this body, no more material body either in the heavenly planet or in the lower hellish planet. "You come direct to Me." That is perfection. You should not be attracted by somebody has gone to heavenly planet for ten thousands of years living. We should not be attracted by these things. Therefore Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī says, kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pur ākāśa-puṣpāyate. Tridaśa-pur means the heavenly planets. Ākāśa, it is just like will of the wisp. Something, just like, what do you say Hindi? There are many proverbs, which has no existence. Just like in Bengali we say ghoḍā-ḍima. Ghoḍa-ḍima. Ḍima means egg. The horse never lays down egg. But the word is running on: "the egg of horse." So it has no existence but the word is there. Similarly, what do you say in Hindi? Something which has no existence but it is current. I think there is.

Room Conversation -- September 18, 1973, Bombay:

Guest (1): There are counterparts of senses also?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like your coat and shirt. The coat has got hand. But that is not hand. Real hand is within the coat. So actually the coat has no hands. So where is the question of coat having senses? Similarly, this material body is a lump of matter. Just like the dolls. The dolls are prepared with grass, hands and legs, and then it is plastered, and it becomes a nice doll. Similarly, we have got hands and legs, and this material is plaster. Therefore when the real hands and legs go away, they are no more hands and legs. They are simply lump of matter. Therefore, anyone thinks that this body, "I am," he's a fool. If you think that you are the coat, you are the shirt, then you are a fool.

Room Conversation -- September 18, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So when these dirty things are washed, then you become as Kṛṣṇa as you in spirit sense. So at the present moment, we are with... Covered means with upādhi. Upādhi. Just like your naked body and this body with shirt and coat. When you take away the shirt and coat, you become original body. Similarly, when you stop accepting this plastering process of body, material body, in different shapes, then you become mukta.

sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ
tat-paratvena nirmalam
hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-
sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate
(CC Madhya 19.170)

When you begin serving Kṛṣṇa in your original spiritual body, that is called bhakti. (break) ...educated person. If you like you can learn all the things. You read our books. You have got our books?

Guest (1): A few books I have got. Kṛṣṇa, I have got it.

Room Conversation -- September 18, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Fourth Chapter. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Tattvataḥ, if you can understand, then your business is done. Then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Then, after giving up this body, you are not going to accept any more this material body. My problem is acceptance of this material body. That is my problem. Because these pains and pleasure, feeling of pains and pleasure, is due to my this body. Therefore Buddha philosophy is nirvāṇa, "Make this body zero." That is his philosophy. Nirvāṇa. Because people are bothered due to these pains and pleasures. Here everything is painful. But we take something pain, as pleasure.

Room Conversation -- September 18, 1973, Bombay:

Guest (1): Some devotees want the body again and again...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee... Because people want perfection. But their perfection is to serve Kṛṣṇa. Their perfection is not to stop this body. But the... Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, he's not living in this material world. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Anyone who's engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he's transcendental to these material qualities. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). (break) ...and then, after leaving this body, you are not going to accept any material body. And as soon as you accept a material body, you are under pains and pleasure. No pleasure, simply pains. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). We are trying to avoid pains. But it is not possible. The real pain, birth, death, old age and disease, that remains. What is the use of temporary getting some so-called pleasure?

Guest (3): At what stage could one say that a person is Kṛṣṇa conscious? There must be a beginning stage...

Prabhupāda: He has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa.

Room Conversation -- September 19, 1973, Bombay:
Prabhupāda: If you give a two payasā worth lozenges, he thinks, "This is my object, end of... I have got now nice sweet lozenges." But as you advance, then the śreyas is different. It is preyas. Immediately which you like, that is called preyas. But what is your ultimate good, that is called śreyas. Śreyas and preyas. So people are interested in the bodily concept of life. Anything which is immediately pleasing to my senses, we take it, "This is my end of life." Therefore śāstra says, śreya uttamam, not that śreyas which is immediately very pleasing to you. What is immediately pleasing to you, it will be a source of great displeasure at the end. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So uttamam. Uttamam. Ut means transcendental, and tama means this material world. "Beyond this material world," Uttama. Śreya uttamam. Because we are not this material body, therefore our śreyas, our highest perfection of life, is different. Here the perfection of life—you get a comfortable life of the body. That is not possible, however comfortably you may situate. You may be very rich man, you may have very rich connection or good apartment, but still, you cannot be happy because you are not this body. But they do not know. Therefore one should be inquisitiveness that "I want to be happy. I am arranging for my happiness with so many material paraphernalia, but still I am not happy." This inquiry should be there.
Room Conversation with Indian Guest -- October 4, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: But Bhagavad-gītā says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Bhagavad-gītā says that if you understand the Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy, janma karma me... First of all, you always remember that whatever we are talking, we are talking on the Bhagavad-gītā, on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa, then tyaktvā deham, giving up this body, you'll not have to accept another material body. This is the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. But so long you'll accept this body, material body, you'll remain imperfect. There cannot be any perfection. It may be gradation. There are eight million, four hundred forms of life. There is Brahmā, and there is ant also. Both of them are living entities. But the status quo of the ant, and the status quo of Brahmā is not the same, higher consciousness or mental... So they're all in the material world. None of them are perfect. Between Brahmā and ant, there are millions of other living entities, eight million. Not only one million. Millions. 8,400,000 forms of life. They're all imperfect because they have accepted this material body, either Brahmā or ant, but your perfection will come when you do not accept this material body. That is the, I mean to, the destination of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti: (BG 4.9) "After quitting this body, he does not accept any more this material body." This, that means he, he becomes perfect. That is stated in another place.

Room Conversation -- November 3, 1973, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Nobody has intelligence. It will not, it will not stay. It will be spoiled. Joint mess organization. In Los Angeles, they're also doing business. They're going to sell books. But regulative principle is observed. Huge expenditure they have got. No center is so improved as Los Angeles. We have purchased six houses. And I wanted immediately two lakhs, immediately sent. You cannot pay. You simply want to take. In India, nobody can pay. If I want two lakhs, nobody can pay. But all this money have been taken from U.S.A. I asked Bali Mardana, I asked Karandhara. They paid me for this Bombay affair, sixteen, eighteen lakhs. (break) ...and breathing also does not stop. It goes very slow. Therefore he cannot be immortal. And Bhagavad-gītā proposes, that is wonderful thing, if you can stop death. And whole spiritual life means how to stop death. That is Bhāgavata's instruction, "Don't accept guru, don't accept father, don't accept, or don't be father, don't be mother, don't be, if you cannot stop death." Either you don't accept, or don't become. Just like they want guru. So don't accept a guru who cannot stop your death. And from guru's side, it is advised, "Don't become guru if you cannot stop the death of your disciple." This is Bhāgavatam's statement. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to stop death, live eternally with Kṛṣṇa, go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our movement. So our guru gives us this opportunity, no more death. Tyaktvā... After leaving this body, you don't accept any more material body. And if you don't accept material body, then there is no death. As soon as your spiritual, you remain in spiritual body, there is no death. There is no birth also.

Morning Walk -- December 3, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in due course if they create these amino acids, there are 20 amino acids which are necessary for the body, for the material body.

Prabhupāda: But it is already created. What is your credit?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they want to do it themselves.

Prabhupāda: You may do, but already... Just like there is a soap factory. You start another soap factory. So what is your credit? It is already there.

Yaśomatīnandana: The big, big soap factory.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is your credit? Yes. You can imitation, make an imitation. And you want to take credit, all credit, for the original creator, simply by imitating. You are so foolish. Why shall I give you the credit? I shall give credit to the origin. That is our philosophy.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, what...? Death is... What do you mean by death?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Losing the material body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that you are losing every day, every moment. You are not today what you were yesterday, that you are losing. So, how can you defeat? You are, every moment you are being defeated.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are some theories now. By turning the temperature, by cooling down little more than the body temperature, you can live longer.

Prabhupāda: Well, you can live little longer, but you cannot live forever. That is not possible.

Umāpati: They're freezing the body now, Prabhupāda, in the hopes that sometime in the future science will be able to make them come back to life.

Prabhupāda: That is all future. That is all future.

Morning Walk -- December 13, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prajāpati: Should also this be the responsibility of the government to protect people from having to take dog body?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the government's duty, that the citizens may not degrade. That is government's duty. Now, just like a father thinks, "Now, these children have come under my protection. I must see they get proper education and make advancement of life." It is the father's duty. And if the father thinks, "Let him go to hell." That's all. Nowadays fathers are doing like that. That is not father's duty. Similarly, government's duty is that the citizen must make progress. But they do not know what is means by progress, what is the aim of life. They do not know. They are demonic. How they will guide? They think, like cats and dogs, "If you get fatty and you can eat more, then your life is successful." Their thinking is very poor. Simply physical strength, they think that is success. But he does not think that physical, the elephant has physical strength so much, the tiger has physical strength so much, but what is the use of their life? After all, it is an animal. But they are thinking like that, "If you get strength like an elephant or like tiger, then your life is successful." They're thinking like that. But because they do not know what is the aim of life, what is the goal of life. A dog does not know what is the aim of life. But even if I say that "This is the aim of life," it will not understand because the body is different. But a human being can understand. Therefore there are so many books of knowledge. So if they do not get proper knowledge, that means they are missing the point. (break) ...tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam: "So long one does not come to the point of understanding the spirit soul, whatever he is doing he is being defeated because the main point is missing." Like cats and dogs he is accepting this material body as self, and he is working on that platform. Therefore his life is being spoiled. (break) Our mission is to save human being from being spoiled like animals. That is our mission. The greatest humanitarian work.

Morning Walk -- December 13, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (in the car) They are, the so-called scientists, they are taking the effects as cause. That is illusion. Actually the soul has nothing to do with this, anything, material world, but according to the environment he is creating certain material condition. (break) I don't require liquor, but if I want to be intoxicated, then liquor is present.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Since I am conditioned in this material body...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, as soon as I condition, I create an environment which is material. Therefore these so-called scientists, they have no eyes to see the spirit. They take this material condition as the cause of the spirit. And then again, when they find that in spite of presence of these chemicals, the life is not there, they are bewildered. They say, "Yes, we are trying to improve." Therefore they do not find the cells in the dead body.

Morning Walk -- December 17, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: At will. So the soul is still finer. Intelligence is finer than the mind. And soul is finer than the intelligence. So just imagine what is the velocity. Soul is so powerful. By yogi, simply giving up this material body, they can capture the sun rays and immediately go to the sun planet. Beams of the sun. This is science. Where is that science?

Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are thoughts made of matter or spirit?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thoughts actually made by spirit, but it is covered by matter. Therefore in the material condition you can think only of matter. Just like this body is covered by so many material things, but actually, the spirit is covered. So the soul being spirit, so long it is covered by matter, it cannot act spiritually. It is obstructed. Not obstructed. Covered. It cannot be obstructed. If you like, you can get out of the covering of the matter. So matter cannot obstruct. But it is the will of the soul. Therefore it is called taṭastha, marginal.

Prajāpati: When we feel pain or discomfort, that is covering also?

Prabhupāda: That is to the material. Soul has no pain. It is the material covering. Just like this chilliness. We are affected by the body, material body, not the soul. Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ (BG 2.14). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. This pleasure and pain is due to the material covering. Otherwise soul is unaffected. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ: "This puruṣa, the soul, is unaffected by any material condition." The same example as I give, that you have a good car. You are identifying yourself. But you are not the car. You are affected if the car is smashed, because you have got absorption in the car that "This is my car." The other man is not affected. Similarly, due to our absorption, ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8), "It is my, it is mine," we are suffering.

Morning Walk -- December 21, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So these rascals will change every year their theology. So what is the value of their words? Childish. (break) ...changes, he is a rascal. That is our... We say, "Kṛṣṇa the Supreme." We never change it. And "Surrender is the only process." We shall never change it. In any circumstance we will not change it. That is the difference. And these rascals will change every year their opinion. They are rascals. (break) ...They are rascals. (break) Kṛṣṇa said that "I am the Supreme." So Arjuna accepted, the Supreme. All the ācāryas accepted the Supreme. Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted, Supreme. My Guru Mahārāja accepted, Supreme. I am accepting, Supreme. I am teaching the same thing. So there is no change. Not that after a few years it will be changed. That never be. That is our position. (break) Changing means material. Anything material is susceptible to change. Like this material body. I am changing my body, but I am the spirit soul. I am not changing. That is the difference. So all these so-called theologicians, they have no idea what is spiritual knowledge. All rascals. They cannot understand what is God. That I have explained. Simply speculating. It will not help. (break) (Hindi) (some Indian people have joined the walk) Now we are talking of one theologician. Some years ago just... Narrate the... Yes.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- February 17, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Anyone who has got this material body, he is not well. He may be possessing very stout and strong body, but he's not well. Because death is there. So well or no well, you have to meet death. So where is, where is the use of your...

Dr. Patel: What is this death? If you say, "You meet death," then you are a Māyāvādī.

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no, no. I am speaking... I am answering your "well" and "not well." That's it. When there is death, then what is the use of calling "well" and "not well"?

Dr. Patel: "Well" and "not well," that's right.

Prabhupāda: That is my point. If you can avoid death, disease, old age, then you are well. You cannot avoid all these things. You must become old man, you must die, you must be diseased; where is the meaning of this well? It is simply concoction. (break) Where is happiness? Where is well-being? That they do not know. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. That they do not know. Just like a man lying on sick bed, and some friends come, "How are you?" "Yes, today I am well." What is this "well"? You are lying on the sick bed, hospital, and you are speaking, "Yes, I am well." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. There is no "well."

Morning Walk -- February 23, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: But that, Kṛṣṇa's body is not that body.

Prabhupāda: Not only, not only guru. Anyone who is spiritually advanced, he has no more material body.

Dr. Patel: That's... From higher stand point of view.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you, if the guru is in the lower standard, then how he becomes guru?

Dr. Patel: No, that guru who knows that he has no real material body, he's beyond the body consciousness, that is right.

Prabhupāda: No, no! Even the material body's there...

Dr. Patel: Guru thinks so, but what about this...

Prabhupāda: Even the material body is there, still he's to be taken as spiritual. That is the philosophy. The example is given: just like you have got an iron stick. You put it in the fire, and it becomes warm. And when it is red-hot, it is no more iron stick. It is fire. Do you accept this?

Dr. Patel: I accept it.

Prabhupāda: Then? Similarly, one who is always merged in Kṛṣṇa thought, his body is not material.

Morning Walk -- February 23, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Because his material body is not working. That is stopped. He's working simply spiritually. Therefore his body is spiritual. The same example: it has become so hot, red-hot, that it is no more working as iron rod. It is working as fire.

Dr. Patel: Because it burns anybody who touches it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: So guru also does the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: He electrifies anybody who touches him. So we touch your feet. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Therefore, therefore he has no material body.

Dr. Patel: No.

Prabhupāda: It is aparādha. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. This is forbidden. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Arcye śilā-dhīr... Just like everyone knows... The atheist class will say, "Oh, here is a stone statue, and these rascals are worshiping as Kṛṣṇa."

Morning Walk -- February 23, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: I am not guru. I am... I am... This is... The guru has no material body. Just like the statue is not material, similarly, guru's body is not material.

Dr. Patel: You say that those gurus who appear as material body, you are not to take it as a material body. Say that way. Because we are little...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not to take it. It is actually. If it is material body, then how they are getting benefits? If it is a material body. The same example: if it is iron rod, how it is burning? It is fire. When there is burning, you must assume it is fire. Why do you take, "Oh, it is iron rod"? Phalena paricīyate. Phalena paricīyate. By the result you have to... Therefore it is said, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. We, we have no direct contact with Bhagavān, but guru, being representative of Bhagavān, if we satisfy guru, then Bhagavān becomes... Identical. Therefore it is warned: vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. Similarly, vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. "Here is a European Vaiṣṇava, he's Indian Vaiṣṇava, it is brāhmaṇa Vaiṣṇava and śūdra Vaiṣṇava." No. That is also, that is also offense.

Morning Walk -- February 23, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: The Māyāvāda says, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is God within you." The Dr. Radhakrishnan said, the rascal. "Kṛṣṇa is within. The outside is material body." You have read that.

Dr. Patel: There is no within and without... I have not read that. There is no within and without so far God is concerned. God is everywhere.

Prabhupāda: And similarly, similarly, guru also—no within, no without. Otherwise how we can say, sākṣād-dharitvena. Directly, if you make distinction, how he can be directly?

Dr. Patel: Within, without is (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. But he has attained that position on account of his being very, very dear to God. Because doing God's work. Eh? God says, "Surrender unto Me." Guru is preaching... That is real guru. He's preaching, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He'll never say, "Surrender unto Me."

Morning Walk -- March 23, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Pāpa means so long you accept this material body.

Dr. Patel: Is pāpa.

Prabhupāda: Is pāpa. Either you accept as, a material body as Brahmā or as insignificant ant, it is pāpa.

Dr. Patel: Anything is pāpa. Anything is pāpa. Anything which you make removed from God consciousness is pāpa.

Prabhupāda: Just like outlaw. Outlaw means who does not care for the government laws. Similarly, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). The law means dharma, law. Dharma means to accept the laws of God. And what is the law? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the law. If one cannot accept this, then he's outlaw. Immediately.

Dr. Patel: And that is pāpa.

Prabhupāda: That is pāpa.

Dr. Patel: Anything which makes you removed from God consciousness is pāpa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Morning Walk -- March 24, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Perfection means you are living entity, you are living entity you are rotting in this material world, get free from this material world, go back to home. That is saṁsiddhi. We are suffering so much on account of being in the material world. Tri-tāpa-yatana (?), threefold miseries. And everyone is trying to get out of the miseries, but that is not possible in the material world. Therefore you get your spiritual form, and go back to Kṛṣṇa and dance with him. That is saṁsiddhi. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). This is saṁsiddhi. "After giving up this body, no more accepting any more material body." Then, he's zero? No. Mām eti. "He comes to Me, to dance with Me, to play with Me." That is saṁsiddhi. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. When Śukadeva Gosvāmī was describing the cowherds boy playing with Kṛṣṇa, he described, itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā...

itthaṁ satāṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā
dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena
māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa
sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ
(SB 10.12.11)

These boys, these cowherds boys, they have accumulated, kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ, heaps of pious activities, therefore they are now allowed to play with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. Not ordinary thing.

Morning Walk -- March 25, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: They are individuals till there is a salvation. And after, they are...

Prabhupāda: No, salvation means when they have ceased to accept the material body. That is salvation. Śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti. So avāpnoti means it was not, in the spiritual body there was no such thing, but they accept this material body.

Dr. Patel: This morning I read a very good thing from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, from Eleventh... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...every day say. Every day say. Every day I say that.

Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit)

Guest (1): (Sanskrit) (break)

Prabhupāda: ...we are servant. That I have explained several times. Yesterday also I explained. That, our constitutional position as servant, cannot be changed. Just like śūdra, servant. What is called here? The servant class?

Dr. Patel: Śūdra.

Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Soul is also prakṛti. Soul is not puruṣa. The Māyāvādīs, they consider soul as puruṣa. But it is spoken in the Bhagavad-gītā as prakṛti. Prakṛti... Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho (BG 7.5). Jīva-bhūtā, the soul which is now covered with this material body is called jīva-bhūtā.

Mr. Sar: Apareyam itas tv anyāt.

Prabhupāda: So therefore it is decided that both these material elements and the soul, both of them are prakṛtis. One is superior; another is inferior.

Dr. Patel: Aparā prakṛti is soul.

Mr. Sar: No, no,...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- April 3, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Not contaminated.

Prabhupāda: Not contaminated. Apāpa-vidham. As it is said, apāpa vidham aśnaviram. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Aśnaviram means not material body. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Aśnaviram apāpa-vidham.

Dr. Patel: Kavir manīṣiḥ paribhuḥ svayambhūḥ...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is being explained, yes. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12).

Dr. Patel: Puruṣaṁ śaśvataṁ divyam ādi-devam ajaṁ vibhum.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Divyam. Divyam means spiritual. Tapo divyam. Tapo divyam (SB 5.5.1). That is the instruction of Rsabhādeva, "My dear boys, you engage yourself in tapasya." Now, what kind of tapasya? Tapo divyam, for spiritual realization. Now, materialists, there are big, big scientists, big, big archeologists and so on, so on. They are also undergoing tapo. Without tapasya, nobody can become eminent. So they are also undergoing tapasya. Suppose one who has manufactured this atomic bomb. This is also tapasya. But not this kind of tapasya. Tapo divyam, for understanding Kṛṣṇa. To understand Kṛṣṇa, that tapasya required.

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...another example. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. It is said that this living entity is untouched by this material body. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. So the example is given that the moon reflected on water appears to be moving, but moon is separate from that movement. (Hindi) Go on. (Hindi) (break) ...good example. Unnecessarily he thinks that "I belong to this country, I belong to this society." That means he creates another body. And if he knows perfectly well that "I do not belong to any of these bodies," that is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). That teaching required, that every being is unattached to this body. Therefore yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape... Anyone who is maintaining himself under bodily concept of life, he is no better than the animals. (break) The demonic person does not accept any good lesson. Mūrkhāyopadeṣo hi prakopāya na śāntaye. Because he is foolish, if you give him good advice, he will be angry. Still, we have to do that.

Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay:

Italian Man (1): Exactly. I wanted to ask you about Kṛṣṇa in the heart. Could you tell us something about His physiognomy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. His physiognomy is sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (Bs. 5.1). That we can understand. Sac-cid-ānanda. He is eternal, He is full of knowledge and He is blissful. Sac-cid-ānanda. Your body, my body, is just opposite. It is not eternal, it is temporary. And it is full of ignorance. Therefore we require knowledge. (aside:) Little away, yes. So this is full of ignorance, and there are so many miseries. So Kṛṣṇa hasn't got a body like this. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's body is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. So we can distinguish what is Kṛṣṇa's body and what is our body. (break) ...understand. Try to understand, that what is the nature... That is called spiritual body. So we have got also similar body, but very small, very small. That is covered by this material body. And because in the spiritual body I am person, I have got form, therefore the material elements have taken a form. Just like when your coat is made, it is made according to your body. Because you have got hands, so the coat has got a hand. But the hand of the coat is not real. The real hand is within the coat. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Within. These foolish people, they do not understand. They take, "This is hand. This is hand."

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay:

Indian man (1): But you see, up till now, in my long life of eighty years...

Prabhupāda: No, no, you have not so many experiences. That does not mean these things does not exist. Your experience is not all in all. Don't think like that. So these are existing actually. That is the defect, that you do not accept the authorities. That is the defect. Here Vyāsadeva is describing, who is called Vedavyāsa, full of all knowledge, and Bhāgavata is a mature experience. We are hearing from him. Why you should not believe? I may not have experience. This ghost means the living entity is subtle life without any material body. That is ghost. When one is very sinful, he does not get the material body. He lives in the subtle body: mind, intelligence and ego. That is ghostly life. And they display. Because they have no body, one cannot see, but they display so many mischiefs. That is ghostly life. (break) Seeing or not seeing doesn't matter. Therefore it is enjoined in the Vedānta-sūtra, śāstra cakṣuṣā.

Morning Walk -- April 16, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Sometimes we...

Dr. Patel: First reading you don't mind following.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So after all, we have got still the material body. Sometimes we get tired. That is also fortune. (break) That is the advantage of human life. You can check.

Dr. Patel: Particular intelligence is given to human being?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: The elephant has got so much intelligence, they say, as good as human being.

Prabhupāda: Intelligence... Not only intelligence. Human life has got the discriminating power. Sad-asat. (Indians speaking) (break) ...infected, how your medicine will be sold? (break) ...merchant, I will say like that. (break) Since we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then bahyābhyantaraṁ śuciḥ. We are... What is called? Prophylactic, prophylactic. (end)

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Guest (2): What is the ultimate aim of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes, ultimate aim is that there is spirit and matter. As there is material world, there is spiritual world also. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyaktaḥ avyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). The spiritual world is eternal. The material world is temporary. We are spirit soul. We are eternal. Therefore our business is to go back to the spiritual world, not that we remain in the material world and change body from bad to worse or worse to bad, er, good. That is not our business. That is a disease. Our healthy life is to enjoy eternal life. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). So our human life should be utilized for attaining that perfectional stage—not to get any more this material body which we have to change. This is the aim of life.

Guest (3): Is that perfection possible in one life?

Prabhupāda: Yes, in one moment, if you agree. Kṛṣṇa says that

sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo
mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ
(BG 18.66)

We change our body on account of sinful activities, but if we surrender to Kṛṣṇa and take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately you are on the spiritual platform.

Morning Walk Excerpts -- May 1, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...says, ātma-māyayā. Ātma-māyayā, His own energy. So the material energy and the spiritual, both of them, are His energy. So even if He appears in a material body, it does not act as material body. It act as spiritual body. Just like same example: The expert electrician, he can turn the refrigerator into heater. Is it not? That is the way. Hare Kṛṣṇa. For Him there is nothing, no distinction, because He is absolute. Similarly, to take the side of the devotee and to kill the enemy of Kṛṣṇa, they are all the same.

Brahmānanda: Inside of the devotee?

Prabhupāda: Or to kill the demon, that is His mercy. Both of them. It is not that materially, as we think, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is taking side of this man and killing this man." No. Still, He is neutral, absolute.

Room Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope -- May 24, 1974, Rome:
Prabhupāda: The real necessity of human life is to understand God. Not only to understand God superficially, but to understand our eternal relationship with Him, and then prayojana, the ultimate goal of life, is to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is ultimate goal. And if you simply try to understand God, as we get it from the revealed scriptures, then after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ... Deham means this body. After this death... There are many deaths in many bodies, but after this death, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), he does not enter again into the material body. In his original spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. So this is sum and substance of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and we have got many Vedic literatures about it, especially the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So we have published Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. The publisher is Messrs. MacMillan and Company, and we are selling. It has already gone fifth edition. And each edition they have published fifty-thousand copies and this is the preliminary study book, to understand God. And then, when one is passed of this knowledge, then he can be given the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam which we have published like this, sixty volumes, all original verses from Bhāgavatam, and explained.
Morning Walk at Villa Borghese -- May 26, 1974, Rome:

Bhagavān: A little material benefit, that increase, they take to be spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gymnastic. Just like a man, by bodily exercise, he becomes a little strong. His digestive function becomes very easy, he can eat more. He can enjoy more sex life. These benefits they want. And if you promise all these benefits, they become attracted. And they cannot understand, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). After giving up this body, we do not accept anymore material body, but go to back to home, back to... These things they cannot understand.

Yogeśvara: Can we take a picture right here, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: It is beyond their understanding.

Bhagavān: We are the only ones who are preaching like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual benefits, they do not understand. What is this building? This is also old construction?

Bhagavān: It's a church. (asking someone:) Is that from the Roman empire? (break)

Prabhupāda: ...in right position. All wonderful buildings, there is no doubt. Such huge buildings in any other parts of the world is not visible. Just the thickness of the building.

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our life is so nice. We are satisfied with eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam and chant whole day and night Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. What is the use of this industry and trade. And transport and politics. There is no need. Anartha. It is called anartha, unwanted things.

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād
bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje
lokasyājānato vidvāṁś
cakre sātvata-saṁhitām
(SB 1.7.6)

These are all anarthas, unwanted things. So to stop these anarthas is bhakti-yoga. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya. These rascals, they do not know. Therefore vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Vidvān, the most learned man Vyāsadeva has written this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād
bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje
lokasyājānato vidvāṁś
cakre sātvata-saṁhitām
(SB 1.7.6)

This is all described. First of all, the first defect is that you are eternal spirit soul. Why you should be entangled with this material body? That is the first fault. That is anartha. I am spirit soul. Why shall I accept this material body? That is my basic principle of unwanted things. And to make solution how to get out of this material entanglement. And that is... Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). After leaving this body, now this is the last, and then I am not coming to this material world. How? Simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. The Bhāgavata says that "One should not become parent, father and mother, one should not become guru, one should not become friend, one should not become husband"—these are the guardians—"if one cannot release his dependent from this repetition of birth and death." This is civilization. This is civilization. Not that "I am now human being; I shall become demigod. Or I am dog, I shall become human being." The karmīs, they are thinking this is advancement. This is not advancement. Real advancement: no more accepting any material body.

Morning Walk -- May 30, 1974, Rome:
Prabhupāda: "This kind of activities will cover your soul by body." "Well, this body is temporary. Don't bother." Then another body, rascal. This body is temporary, but you get another body, most abominable. Why you are doing like this? Asann api. Although this body is temporary, but why don't you understand that it is kleśada: It is always subjected to miserable condition of material life. Kleśada. This is kleśada, another body you get, kleśada. Any body you get, kleśada. Why do you get this? Stop these activities. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That they do not know. Da means "that gives." Any type of material body you accept will be kleśada. They have constructed this building. If for few hours there is severe cold, so many people will die, even in this comfortable building. Is it not? So kleśada is there; either you remain in this way or that way, the sufferings will be there. And to take this comfort of this high building, how much kleśada, how much miserable condition, one has to pass. "Sir, I am not doing; the workers are doing." But you have to collect the money to pay them. How much miserable it is to acquire this money to pay another kleśada, laborer. So simply they are captivated by money. Otherwise it is kleśada. Sometimes they fall down and die while constructing. Is it not? Now, I have heard that in New York there are many buildings and there is no tenant. Kleśada. The proprietor of the house, he is also suffering. "I have spent so much money. No tenant." In London I have seen there is, for the last six or seven years, very big building. It is vacant.
Room Conversation with Biochemist, Dr. Sallaz -- June 4, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: So then, first of all, we have to understand what is our constitutional position. We are superior-we, living entities—we are superior energy, eternal. And after annihilation of this body, I, the spirit soul, superior energy, am not annihilated. I accept another body, material body. And there are varieties of body, 8,400,000. (Yogeśvara translates)

Dr. Sallaz: And on this point of view, when some people are going very badly, wrong with us, of course, for us it is like air, but we say, "Poor people, what about their karma?" That is how we look it, "What about their karma?" It is a pity for them that they do so wrong, because they will have to pay for it. That is all.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That "pay for it" means, he has got this chance of human body. Now he will have to accept lower grade animal body.

Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: I am a spirit soul. So my natural abode for living is spiritual world. So so long I am in the material world. It may be... The same example. I may be on the 747 or DC-10 or 10C-10 or this or that nonsense, I must be in anxiety. So that is the problem. And what is that material problem? Material life means you have got this material body and you do not wish to die. The anxiety on the plane is: "Because I may die..." That means you do not wish to die. That is my anxiety. If there is plane crash, then I may die. And therefore my anxiety. If I am assured that I'll not die, then where is that anxiety? The anxiety is that I do not wish to die, but death is there. So that death is there either on the plane or on the ground. You cannot avoid death. Why I cannot avoid death? Because I have got this body which is perishable. Therefore if I want to be anxietyless freely, I must try for that thing by which I do not get again a body like this. Then I'll be anxiety-free. Even a small bird, if he sits here, he'll do like this-anxiety. You give him something to eat, but he'll not dare to come near you because he has anxiety that you may capture him. He knows that. Therefore the material life means four things: We, we require to eat something; we want a place for sleeping; we want to gratify our senses; and we want to defend from anxiety. This is material life.

Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Material body means again death. As soon as you accept this material body, either human body or cat's body or dog's body or tree's body, it has end. Therefore it is said, tyaktvā deham, if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then, giving up this body, no more accepting any material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). "He comes to Me." And that is the solution of all anxieties. So if you want to become anxietyless, therefore we would advise you to become God conscious, always think of God, Kṛṣṇa. Then your life will be successful. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). This is the process, that so long we'll be on the platform of material existence, we cannot avoid anxiety. That is not possible. Therefore it is the duty of everyone to give up this material world and take shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That will give us relief from all anxieties.

Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: So we understand the matter generates from spirit. Just like I am a small fragment of spirit. You are also a small fragment of spirit. So when I am in the womb of my mother, so my big body grows. On account of my spirit, small particle of spirit, coming in the womb, in the womb of my mother, the body grows. So it is evident that this body has grown because the spirit soul is there. Suppose a dead child comes out. The matter will not grow. The material body will stop growing. Therefore the conclusion is matter grows on account of the spirit fragment. Do you agree or not?

Robert Gouiran: I... Do you mean that matter grows starting from a spiritual seed, something like that?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Then how the material body grows? Because the spirit soul is there. Is there any denial?

Robert Gouiran: We call in a way, but...

Prabhupāda: You call in any way, but the fact is this that there is something, when in contact with that something, the matter grows. Otherwise it doesn't grow. That we call spirit soul. You may call it something else. That is a different thing. You can call in a different name, but matter grows not automatically. There must be in touch something with matter. Then it grows. This is a fact.

Robert Gouiran: And it grows by aglutamation (?) of particles.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That may be. The composition may be. We take grossly five matters, gross matters, and five subtle matters. Five gross matters: this earth, water, air, fire, ether. These are gross matters. And subtle matters: mind, intelligence and ego. These are eight different types of gross and subtle matters. But they depend on the still more subtle thing. That is soul. If the soul is there, the gross matter, this material body, it grows, the mind acts, the intelligence acts, the ego acts, and as soon as the soul is out of this body, it does not act. It decomposes and again turns into gross matter. That's all. Therefore that spirit soul is the basic ground wherefrom the matter develops. Matter is developing, we can understand. A small child is developing big, fatty body. The elephant. But in the middle, if you stop, if you drive away the spirit, it will not grow.

Morning Walk -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Devotee: He's puffed-up.

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not puffed-up. It is simply foolishness, "Because I do not know, therefore all others..." Ātmavat manyate. Everyone thinks of others in his own standard. But that argument is not valid.

Bhagavān: Is that the same psychology that they, they only know of material body, so when they think of God, they think that God has material body also.

Prabhupāda: That is still lower grade man. But so far experience that "I have not... God is beyond my experience." Another point that in the Bible, Christ, Lord Christ says that "My Lord, Thy be hallowed..." What is that?

Devotees: "Hallowed be Thy name."

Prabhupāda: So God has name.

Room Conversation with M. Lallier, noted French Poet -- June 12, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: So which part he finds very, very hard to understand?

M. Lallier: I think the relation between the, the, the body, material body and the ātmā...

Yogeśvara: The soul?

M. Lallier: The soul, soul. The relation between the two parts...

Bhagavān: To apply the fact that the soul exists and the body exists? How to practically apply that difference between the body and the soul?

M. Lallier: Yes.

Bhagavān: Is that what you...?

M. Lallier: And the relation between the two parts, between body and soul.

Bhagavān: In other words, you recognize that there's difference between body and soul, and how to practically apply it?

M. Lallier: I think, perhaps, there is some peoples for whom there is no difference between the soul and body.

Prabhupāda: Who says?

M. Lallier: Oh, spiritual masters.

Prabhupāda: Who's that spiritual master, says soul and the...

Morning Walk -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says to always work under His protection, that "One may be engaged in all sorts of activities, but, in the end, by My grace, you will come back to Me."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So the activities of the materialistic man, then, no matter what he does, he will develop another material body for it. (indistinct) Is that right, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: And a devotee is acting, but he's not getting any mental impression? From his activities?

Prabhupāda: His mind is being... His mental expression is Kṛṣṇa. He's always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma. We have got some propensity to create. Just like this beautiful place. We have got creative energy. Therefore it is advised that nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe. Make it for Kṛṣṇa. You'll find in India, they have also created big, big temples, four flight, but for Kṛṣṇa. Then the energy spent for creating this park, in relationship with Kṛṣṇa will be utilized as service to Kṛṣṇa. And if it simply meant for sense gratification, then you are under the laws of nature, contaminated. Just like if a man is very powerful, he's creating this park, but he is contaminated with some infection, he, will he not suffer?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: He must suffer.

Room Conversation with Mr. Deshimaru -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: So that is insanity. We are actually the living force, soul, but we are identifying at the present moment with the material body. Everyone is thinking, "I am Japanese, I am Englishman, I am German, I am Indian, I am white, I am black," but that is his insanity. So this insanity should be cured, that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And when he understand that he is spirit soul, he should be engaged in the business of the spirit soul. And because he is misidentifying himself with this body he is engaged with the bodily activities. So when he stops his bodily activities and he begins his spiritual activities, then he will be cured. So far bodily, I mean to say, pains and pleasure, that will be automatically cured when he understands that he is not body. Just like I feel heat and cold on account of this body.

Room Conversation with Mr. Deshimaru -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Analogy is, means where there is no spiritual sensation, that is matter. (French)

Karandhara: It's just merely meant to be an illustration, not that you're supposed to compare everything all the way around. The body is also material; the nail is also material. The point is that that which is not sensed spiritually by the true identity of the soul, that which is experienced outwardly by the material body and the senses, that is matter. But the basic element, or the basic consciousness is spiritual, and that's eternal. Whereas the sensation from outward, like what I see today and taste today, that is temporary, but the taster, the seer, he is eternal, the self. (French)

Prabhupāda: As soon as that spirit soul will be off from this body, this part of the body also will be without any sensation. Therefore the distinction of sensation and no sensation is due to the presence of the spirit soul. (French)

Yogeśvara: He says the important thing is the basic principles. If you accept the basic principle, for example that the soul has a form, then we can discuss many many things afterwards.

Prabhupāda: Yes, soul has a form.

Room Conversation with Mr. Deshimaru -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that requires knowledge. That requires how to get that knowledge. He has no such knowledge. (French)

Karandhara: You explain to him the basic difference between the Buddhist concept and our concept is that after the material, the ignorance of the material body and the material self, is cleared away and eliminated, there is still a self. There's still a body, but it's spiritual. It's opposite from material. Whereas the material body is simply temporary and liable to suffer, the spiritual body is eternal and never suffers. It's just the opposite of material. Buddhists go towards... They get to the point of eliminating the material, but then they don't, they don't have the next step, or the spiritual.

Prabhupāda: No understanding of the spiritual.

Room Conversation with Mr. Tran-van-Kha, and President & Members of the Society of Buddhists in France -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: You can take it. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya, navāni gṛhṇāti naro 'parāṇi.

Yogeśvara:

vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya
navāni gṛhṇāti naro 'parāṇi
tathā śarīrāṇi vihāya jīrṇāny
anyāni saṁyāti navāni dehī
(BG 2.22)

(French) "As a person put on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones."

Prabhupāda: This is the point. Just like I've already changed. I was a child, so small. Where is that body? That is no longer existing, But still I remember that I had the body. So I changed that body so many times. Similarly, when this body will be useless, I change to another body. This is conclusion. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: But that means Jesus Christ is transcendental, not of this material world. (French)

Yogeśvara: They say... They accept... They think that Lord Jesus, however, was a human being. He was spiritual, but also he was part of this material world.

Prabhupāda: No, material world is part of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ is not part of material world. (French)

Yogeśvara: He says that they had a human body, he had a material body.

Prabhupāda: That human body appears like that, but he had no this material flesh and blood. A material body, how there can be resurrection?

Yogeśvara: If it was material body, how is it possible for him to be resurrected? (French)

Prabhupāda: Is that all right?

Jyotirmayī: They said it is by the acintya power of God.

Prabhupāda: These, these rascals, they thought that "Jesus had a material body. Let us kill him." So Jesus Christ bewildered them more, to remain rascal, that they will continue to think that Jesus had a material body.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: That is their punishment. They remain always in darkness that Jesus had a material body. (French)

Jyotirmayī: So he's saying that he respects your explanation, but that the Christians, they have another explanation, and that if we...

Prabhupāda: But we must come to the reason before giving explanation. You cannot explain...

Yogeśvara: What is the reason for his incarnation?

Prabhupāda: You cannot explain whimsically. You cannot explain whimsically. If Jesus Christ is son of God, he has... That means he has got spiritual body. You...

French Woman: Yes, we accept that he got the has got spiritual body, but we say that he assumed also a material body.

Prabhupāda: Now, then, then, another thing is: you accept Jesus Christ the only son of God, is it not? So when you pray in the church, you address God, "Oh Father." Then why "only son"?

French Woman: We say that the son is...

Prabhupāda: Then everyone is son.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: So therefore these sons' body and Jesus's body cannot be equal. So adopted son has got material body, not the real son. (French)

Yogeśvara: Their idea is that: Yes, of course, Lord Jesus, being the son of God, his body is spiritual, but because he wanted to take part in the life of the human beings on earth, he actually accepted a material body just to live among men.

Prabhupāda: Why he should accept?

French Woman: But we have a vesper that says that he was died, that he was suffering, and things which show that...

Prabhupāda: But his death... You think that he was died, but he resurrected.

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? It is quite clear for our rational mind, I can understand there is a dead body, and there must be something in him, enough to make it alive. Now, the conclusion, I say there are two things, that my question was how he becomes aware in himself as an experience, not as conclusion, because I realize that on the inner way it becomes important more and more to feel deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper realities. That's why in my little work I make a distinction between the body you have and the body you are. The English language says, talks about "somebody" and "something." "Somebody" means a person. So the body you are. It's the whole of the gestures wherein you express and you present and you miss or you realize your real self. So the body you are. Usually if you go to a doctor he sees only the body you have. He tackles it like a machine. If somebody with shoulders like this, he says, "Well, you must make exercises." If somebody comes to me with shoulders like this, I say, "The body you are, you have no confidence in life. So get an attitude of confidence." So he gets to know the body he is, not only the body he has, which doesn't at all touch at your wisdom.

Prabhupāda: No, as I say, the active principle, I am also the active principle. As I say, the dead body and the living body, difference is, when the active principle is not there, it is dead body. Similarly, I am also the active principle. So 'ham, so 'ham: "I am the same active principle." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman. I am not this material body." That is self-realization. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati: (BG 18.54) "When one is self-realized, then he is jolly." Prasannātmā. He is never morose. He is jolly. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati: "He has no lamentation, no hankering." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu: "He is equal to everyone, man, animal and everything." And mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām: (BG 18.54) "Then devotional life begins." So without self-realization, there is no question of devotional life. Or those who are engaged in devotional service, they are all... Just like these boys, my students, they are trained up how to be always in devotional service. So one who is engaged in devotional service, he is supposed to be already self-realized. Because he has understood "what I am," yes. And then he sticks to devotional service. Otherwise, he cannot. If one thinks, "I am this body," then he cannot be engaged in devotional service, or he cannot stick. He knows that "I am part and parcel of God. So my duty is to serve God." This is self-realization. And then he engages himself in devotional service.

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Professor Durckheim: I am sure it can be reconciled, but I am interested to know how do you see this question.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That everyone can understand. It is very easy. Now, just like we have already heard from Bhagavad-gītā that I am the spirit, I am within this body. So my sufferings are on account of this body. This is a fact. Because I have entered into this body, material body, there are my sufferings. Therefore my business should be how to get out of this body. Is it clear or not?

Professor Durckheim: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So this incarnation means I am spirit soul, I have entered this body. Now I can, next life I can enter into another body. It may be dog's body, it may be cat's body or it may be king's body. So the standard of suffering is there either in the king's body or in the dog's body. And the standard of sufferings is enunciated, birth, death, old age and disease. These are our sufferings. So in order to get out of these four kinds of sufferings—there are many kinds; these are the main kinds—we have to get out of this body. That is the problem.

Morning Walk -- June 20, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: What is scientist? Simply talking. Vikathyante. Vikathyante. This word is used in Bhāgavata. When one is covered by māyā, he talks so many nonsense things, vikathayante. (break)

Mādhavānanda: ...different living entities in different material bodies suffering.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So long you have a material body, you must suffer. Just like in prisonhouse. When the criminals are put there, they are punished different way according to the criminal offense, similarly, you are, we are all criminals, and for different types of suffering we have got different types of body. Different types of body means different types of suffering. Just like this tree is punished, "Stand here for three hundred years." This is punishment. Just like we do, "Stand up on the bench!" Children. So any kind of material body, even Lord Brahmā, that is suffering, different types of suffering. That's all. And if you want to be free from the suffering, then get out of this material body. This is... Kṛṣṇa says that this is a place for suffering. Where does He say?

Satsvarūpa: Ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ: (BG 8.16) "From the highest planet down to the lowest, all are places of suffering where birth and death take place."

Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside:) Just from distance, not so near. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Duḥkha. Duḥkha means suffering. Ālayam. Ālayam means place. So the creator of this universe, the Supreme Lord, He is saying, "This is a place for suffering." And it is called Mṛtyu-loka, "For death, the planets for dying." That means death is unnatural to the eternal soul. But anywhere you live within this material world, you will die. That is material world. Either you live as a Brahmā or live as a small insect, ant, you must die. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate: (BG 8.19) death and again take birth, death and again take birth. But these rascals, they do not know: "This is natural, that's all." That one can stop this death and birth, they have no knowledge. And still, they are big, big scholars. They do not know that this movement is for stopping birth and death. Do they understand this?

Haṁsadūta: No.

Room Conversation -- June 20, 1974, Germany:

Guest: So, bhakti is really a process of decontaminating the mind?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct) That is the real education. And all this rascal education will not help because all this education will keep you within this material body. The real relief is how to get you out of this material entanglement. Tyaktva dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). (indistinct) After giving up this material body, no more acceptance of this material body. That is real education. And Bhāgavata says pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. There is no need of becoming father unless you train up your child to accept no more this material body. The child should be trained up by the father. The guru should train up the disciple in such a way that the disciple or the child or the student will not have to accept any more material body. (indistinct) The whole Vedic education system how to stop acceptance of material body. That is called mukti. Mukti, the definition of mukti is given in the Bhāgavata, muktir hitvānyathā rūpam. Mukti means when one is able to give up another form of body. He has got his own body, spiritual body, but so long as he has to accept another form of body, he is conditioned. Bhāgavata, muktir hitvānyathā rūpam sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. Mukti means to stay in his original spiritual form. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people how to achieve the original consciousness, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Purport?

Satsvarūpa: "Purport: Birth, death, old age and diseases affect this material body, but not the spiritual body. There is no birth, death, old age and disease for the spiritual body, so one who attains a spiritual body, becomes one of the associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and engages in eternal devotional service, is really liberated. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: I am spirit. It is said that one should understand that he is Brahman—spirit soul. This Brahman conception of life is also in devotional service, as described in this verse. The pure devotees are transcendentally situated on the Brahman platform, and they know everything about transcendental and material activities."

Reverend Powell: "Transcendental" means spiritual, does it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reverend Powell: As opposed to material. And...

Prabhupāda: So they are always engaged in transcendental devotional service.

Reporters Interview -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Similarly, if you... We living entities, we are spirit soul. We are not this material body. Unfortunately our system of education is so dull that the authorities do not know that we are not this body, we are spirit soul. Still, they are big, big philosopher, big, big politician and big, big leader and social authorities. But real thing is mistaken. He is accepting this body as self, or he is thinking that "The bodily comforts will make me happy." But that cannot be because the body is made of matter and we are spirit soul. The same thing: From water, you catch the fish and put on the land; it will never be happy. So long you'll continue to have this material body, there cannot be any happiness. And so many problems. The main problem is birth, death, old age and disease. So this is due to this material body. Therefore an intelligent man should know that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul; my field of activities are on the spiritual platform; and then I will be happy." So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means educating people how to be situated on the spiritual platform and be happy. This is the sum and substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Reporters Interview -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: And you remain the drop. That's all. Because... Now, suppose your body, material body—earth, water, air, fire—now, when this body will be decomposed, so this form will not remain. Does it mean that your body has become the whole universal material elements?

Guest (2): No. But surely body is different from soul.

Prabhupāda: That body is a drop in the bigger material elements. That does not mean your body has become the whole material elements. Similarly, a drop of ocean water is drop always. It does not become ocean. It appears that it is mixed up. But mixed up does not mean the drop will become as ocean. That is not the fact.

Guest (3): When they say the drop mixes with the ocean...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: ...in the beautiful tomb. Then how do you go? Either hell or heaven, that doesn't matter. So how do you go there?

Madhudviṣa: They say that the material body and the soul join back together again at the end.

Prabhupāda: That is dehāntara-prāpti, another body.

Madhudviṣa: No, they say same body.

Prabhupāda: Same body means same material body. The form may be different. The form is actually different, because this form is lying in your tomb. It is not going. Where that... If it has gone, then why the body is here? That is dehāntara, another body. How you can say the same body? The same body is lying here. After death, if the same body is going, then why the same body is not going? Why it is lying here? They must be reasonable, not dogmatic. How it is same body?

Satsvarūpa: I don't understand their philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Pure nonsense. Same body, how can you? The body is here.

Morning Walk -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but not this body. Reconstruct.

Madhudviṣa: That they say, this body.

Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. This body, you can say, this is material body; that is also material body. But not this body. Just like you change your cloth. The other cloth also made of cotton, and this is also made of cotton. In the same way, you can say, "the same body," cotton body or dress. But you cannot say that this cloth or this dhoti is going with you. How they can say? This body is lying here. This body means this material body.

Madhudviṣa: They will say, "Some things you cannot understand. You must simply accept on faith."

Prabhupāda: "You cannot understand"—that is also good. Suppose a child cannot understand. But there must be some explanation. Otherwise, how in advanced stages one can accept. They will say, "dogmatic." This body means this material body, and this material body has got so many shapes, 8,400,000. So hell means... This is also hellish. A tree is standing for five thousand years or five hundred years. Is it not hellish? If I ask you, "Stand here for five days," you will die. (laughing) If there is such order from the government, "You stand here for so many days..."

Room Conversation with Scientists -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Because our vision is from the standard of the soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), means a learned, advanced, spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. such and such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27).

Morning Walk at Marina del Rey -- July 14, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Without them... You cannot live with this material body without so many conditions. And that is also one of the conditions. You cannot live. Any condition, little disturbed... You become diseased; you become disturbed. So therefore it is called conditional life. You simply live here on condition. And spiritual life means no condition. If the condition is favorable, then your senses will act. Otherwise you have got useless senses. If there is light, then you can see. You can become proud of your eyes. "Can you show me God?" And what you can see, rascal? If God gives you light, then you can see. You see under condition. And still, he's very proud of his eyes. "Can you show me God?" This is going on. Rascal, what you can see?

Devotees: Watch out! (ocean water apparently comes up to devotees.)

Jayatīrtha: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Ah. Govinda.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: The water's coming up to touch your lotus feet, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: (loud waves) So we are conditioned. And still, we are searching out the truth. What is your truth? You are conditioned.

Morning Walk at Marina del Rey -- July 14, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: To serve māyā means to accept this material body. māyā will give you a dress according to your karma, and you'll have to work. This will continue.

Bali Mardana: Oh. So those who do not develop their Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully must again take a birth.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes.

nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam
asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ
(SB 5.5.4)

This is the instruction of Ṛṣabhadeva, that "These rascals are working like madmen." Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ. Pramattaḥ means mad. And always doing mischievous, sinful activities. So this is not good. Because he does not know that for his mischievous sinful activities, he has got a body which is always miserable. So it will continue, to accept miserable body. Therefore it is not good. A doctor can see that "This man is infecting this disease and he will suffer." But the rascal man cannot understand that "I am infecting something and I'll have to suffer." (break) The karmīs, they are trying to become happy by improving this material condition. But he does not know that he is becoming implicated more and more. Because he'll have to accept the body. And there are so many varieties of body. (devotees laugh at something) This is childish. That, our Girirāja took some money.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other Guests and Disciples -- February 12, 1975, Mexico:

Guest (5): Suppose he is reincarnated?

Prabhupāda: No, no, "dies" means the body dies. The soul does not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). When the body annihilates... Body becomes old. Just like this cloth. I am using it, but when it will be old, no more useful, then I throw it away. I get another dress. This body is like that. Soul is eternal. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. It does not die, it does not take birth, but because he is in material condition, therefore he has to change the material body because no material thing is permanent. Therefore the aim of life should be how to avoid this material body. That is real business. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. That is called athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is only business, how to stop acceptance of this material body. And that is very clearly and simply stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma karma me divyaṁ yo janāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). We can do that. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that you try to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you are not going to accept any more material body. That means there is no more birth, no more death, no more disease, no more, and what is called, old age.

Room Conversation with Woman Sanskrit Professor -- February 13, 1975, Mexico:
Prabhupāda: That is the consideration. I'll get another body, just like I have got this body, after changing so many bodies. Moment after moment, we are changing body. That is the medical science, changing of blood corpuscles. So this body will be changed again. Then I will have to enter the mother's womb and packed up for at least ten months in suffocated condition. This is scientific, all. Then again I'll come out when the body is prepared nicely to come out and exist. So that period of formation of body is not ānanda. To remain compact in this way for ten months, it is not ānanda. It is not ānanda, just opposite ānanda. Then when we die... Die, death, means the miserable condition is so great that we cannot live. We have to go out. There is no ānanda. Then, when we have got this body, changing, there is no ānanda because we are sometimes diseased, and to become old man, that is also not ānanda. Therefore I am eternal. I am seeking after something which is eternal ānanda. Therefore next consideration should be that "Whether this condition of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease can be changed?" That is next question. And if there is possibility, then we shall try for it. But there is possibility here. The conclusion is: so long we get this material body... Because matter is not eternal. Anything you take, material—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence and false ego—these are all material things. So these material things, they are not eternal, none of them. This table is created; it is not eternal. It will be finished at a certain date, anything you take. But I am eternal. So if I transfer myself in another nature which is eternal, then my ānanda will be eternal. That is the purpose of life.
Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Hṛdayānanda: If our chanting is a form of prayer?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Chanting is a spiritual method for cleansing our heart. Because all dirty things are there in the heart, if the heart becomes clean, then we can understand things as they are. The first misunderstanding, that everyone is thinking that he is this body, this is due to ignorance. So when one is cleansed he can understand that he is not this body; he is separate from the body; he lives within this body. Therefore when the person leaves this body it is dead lump of matter. So people are giving more importance to the lump of matter than to the real person within the body. Just like a bird is within the cage, the cage is being washed very nicely and no food to the bird. Therefore the bird is in disturbed condition, and he's crying, "Khan, khan, khan, khan." This is going on. They're giving stress on the cage, not the bird within the cage. Neither do they know that the living being is within this material body.

Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas:

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said there is no guarantee of perfect knowledge because at one time we had perfect knowledge, but as you said, we threw it away. So therefore...

Prabhupāda: No, no, you misused the perfect knowledge. Just like here is perfect knowledge: Bible says, "Thou shall not kill." You are misusing, you are killing. That is your fault.

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He wants to know if we are born good and then we learn the bad thing?

Prabhupāda: No, so long we have got this material body—you are born good or bad, but when you do not get this material body—you remain in your spiritual body—that is good. Just like...

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said, "So no one can be born bad, but by contact with humanity he becomes bad."

Prabhupāda: Then make the humanity good.

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said that if he sees that he is not harming anyone, then he is always right, if he is not harming anyone.

Prabhupāda: That he thinks. But the authority thinks otherwise.

Room Conversation with Metaphysics Society -- February 21, 1975, Caracas:

Prabhupāda: Origin of pain means as soon as you come to the material world, is the origin of pain. Just like the... It can be appreciated very nicely. Just like water. Water is sometimes painful, and sometimes pleasing. Is it not? Do you agree or not? No, I just try to... Water is the same thing, but sometimes it is painful and sometimes it is pleasing, is it not? So how the same thing becomes pleasing and painful? This is circumstantial. The same thing is pleasing and the same thing is painful under different circumstances. Similarly, fire. Fire is sometimes pleasing and sometimes painful. The fire is the same, but circumstantially, it becomes painful and pleasing. Just like in winter season the fire is pleasing. And in summer season the same fire is painful. Now, these feelings of pains and pleasure is due to this material body. Therefore the material body is the cause of pains and pleasure. So if you do not get this material body—you remain in your spiritual body—then there is no more pains and pleasure. So that means the origin of pains and pleasure is to our attachment to this material body. If we can somehow or other get out of this material body, then there is no more pains and pleasure or it is simply pleasure. Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra it is said, ānandamāyaḥ abhyāsāt. "By nature the spirit soul is joyful." In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati: (BG 18.54) "As soon as you become spiritually self-realized, then there is no more pains and pleasure." So pleasure means absence of pain. So in your spiritual identity there is no pain, therefore it is simply pleasure. Therefore our endeavor should be how to get our again original spiritual body. Spiritual body is there already. It is covered by the material body, but some way or other, if we stop the covering of the material body, then we are simply in pleasure. Therefore our only attempt in this human body should be how to revive our spiritual body. And that process is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That... Open that verse, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9).

Room Conversation with Metaphysics Society -- February 21, 1975, Caracas:

Prabhupāda: So if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then you revive your spiritual body.

Guest (Hṛdayānanda): How or why did this spiritual body become covered by the material body?

Prabhupāda: How your body is covered in a different dress when you go to the prison house? When one goes to the prison, he has to keep his dress separately and take the prison dress. So anyone who comes into this material world, he has to take a material body. This is the law. Unless you have got this material body, how you can feel pleasure in material sense enjoyment? Just like on a stage, if you are going to play, you have to take dress according to the play. Therefore this material body is compared with the dress. That is stated. Find out, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya.

Room Conversation with Metaphysics Society -- February 21, 1975, Caracas:

Guest (Lady) (Hṛdayānanda): How can we relieve ourselves of material pain and live in spiritual pleasure?

Prabhupāda: Yes, as soon as you do not accept this material body, you have no connection with material pains and pleasure. (aside:) Get this light down.

Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He has understood from Bhagavad-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says that "As you approach Me, I present Myself." So in that sense can this movement be compared to also the consciousness of Christ, Christ consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is no difference between consciousness of Christ or Kṛṣṇa provided we follows them. Christ is speaking as son of Godhead, and Kṛṣṇa is speaking as God, so there is no difference. The truth—the father speaks or the son speaks—the truth is the same.

Room Conversation with Metaphysics Society -- February 21, 1975, Caracas:

Lady (Hṛdayānanda): If we agree with Buddhist consciousness?

Prabhupāda: No, no, whatever consciousness may be, I say that in the Bible it is said that son of God is Christ. His name is Christ. How you can deny the name? No, no, that is their interpretation, "Christ means 'I am.' " They want to interpret in their own way. There is name. How can you deny it?

Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He is saying that you have said that we have a material body and also a spiritual body. So he wants to know if the spirit and matter are born simultaneously or if the matter is born, the material body is born, and later the spirit comes.

Prabhupāda: No, from spirit the matter has come out. Just like God said, "Let there be creation." So God was there and creation later on. So God is spirit and creation is matter.

Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He has understood from what he thinks is Indian philosophy that you cannot give God a name because that would be limiting God.

Prabhupāda: No, you don't give God name. But God is named by His action. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. That is the quality of God, that He is all-attractive. Similarly, Allah. Allah means "the great." So God is great; therefore He is called Allah. So actually God has no name, but according to His action, He has name. That's all right. You can...

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: Our first problem is, because we have got this material body, eating. Everyone must eat. So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: (BG 3.14) "If there is sufficient food grains, then both man and animal, they become happy." Therefore our first religion is to produce food grain sufficiently to feed everyone. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva (BG 18.44). This matter has been entrusted to the vaiśyas. They should produce sufficient food and give protection to the cows for sufficient milk. Then the whole human society, animal society, will be happy. But we are disobeying the orders or the rules given by God. Instead of producing food, we are producing motorcars. And motor tires, motor parts. And so many other things. And therefore people are starving. The manual labor is being misused. We are disobeying the orders of God. Therefore we are unhappy. I have seen all over the world. There are enough space for producing food grains. And if we actually produce food grain, we can maintain ten times of the present population of the whole world. There is no question of scarcity because God has created everything complete. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). There cannot be any defect in the creation of God. We have created these defects on account of our disobeying the orders of God. God never said that "motorcar-ād bhavanti bhūtāni." He never says. But instead of producing food grains, we are producing so many unwanted things. People's energy is engaged for... Just like in America or in every country, so much energy and resources are engaged for preparing war materials. And that means there must be war. And you must be killed; I must be killed. You will kill me; I will kill you. That's all.

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Are these living entities constant? They don't change any.

Prabhupāda: Yes, nitya, nitya. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Why don't you see these references? It is never created. It is ever-existing, eternal. Only it appears to be temporary on account of accepting different material bodies. Therefore, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who knows, he knows that he has changed his body, the same person. Just like father, mother knows. When a son becomes very stout and strong, the mother sees that same child. Others may be bewildered. One who has seen the child very long ago, now he has become robust build. He cannot say. And the mother says, "He is my child, that child." So paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).

Satsvarūpa: "For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain."

Prabhupāda: That's all. So where is the question of creation? But because we have got these material eyes, we want to see everything through this material manifestation. We are seeing that he is dead, he is alive, he is born, he is this, that...

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: That is also... Because they have no knowledge, how they can describe?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're explaining that, just like Śrīla Prabhupāda's example that the driver in the car. So inside the... We also say that "Yes, molecules are the ingredients to build the material bodies. But this does not mean that molecules are the living entities."

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a driver necessary.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the first instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāra... (BG 2.13). Dehinaḥ. There is a living entity, driver, within this body. That is the first instruction. Unless one understands this simple thing, he is an ass. There is no knowledge. Because everything is based on something fictitious. This is the first thing one has to learn, the scientists, that there is the driver which is missing. Or the driver is moving this body. And if the driver is educated, then he can move this body to Kṛṣṇa, back to home, back to Godhead. Then he becomes perfect. So we are educating the driver. We are not painting the tin car. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Morning Walk -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: Manifest. Just like this coat. It has not automatically come on my body. I have gathered it. Similarly, life is there, and it is gathering the matter to dress himself in a particular way. This is the varieties of life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We give that example that the difference between life and matter... We say that the difference is that the material living bodies... We live in a material body, but the material bodies, when a living entity stays inside a body, is fully automated, fully equipped.

Prabhupāda: Life is enjoying or trying to enjoy the matter. Matter is prakṛti, and the living entity is puruṣa. The chief puruṣa is Kṛṣṇa, and we are trying to imitate Kṛṣṇa to enjoy. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Living entity is superior prakṛti. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ paraḥ. It is a prakṛti, but they are trying to become puruṣa. This is struggle for existence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...trying to live within the water. They are not trying?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. They have several plans to procure food from under the water, under the ocean. So they have all of these different schemes already started. Because the shortage of food on the surface of the earth... They say it's going to be very imminent in the coming future. So they have already started plans to make some food...

Prabhupāda: Another nonsense. (laughter) They are not producing food, they are producing motor tires, and still they will say "shortage." Just see. Now, in this city of Atlanta or any big, big city, who is producing food? Everyone is eating; nobody is producing.

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: Practical is that our śāstra says that pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. The idea is that one should not become a father, one should not become a mother, unless they know how to make his child immortal. Because soul is immortal but he is entangled in this material body, therefore death takes place. Actually soul is not born, na jāyate na mriyate vā. So this process is going on, transmigration of the soul from one body to another, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The father and mother should be so enlightened and educate the son in such a way that this is the last acceptance of material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), he may not accept again this material body. If the father and mother is determined in that way, then they should become parents, otherwise no.

Guest (1): Swamiji, I think, you know, you are very right but we are the one in India who face this problem the most. We should not have gone to this stage which we are, six hundred million people. I think the most of us are, you know, procreating without any thoughts about the next generation.

Prabhupāda: Then that is not for Indian and European, that is for everyone. That ignorance and knowledge is everywhere. It is not the Indian or American. That ignorance is everywhere.

Room Conversation with Reporter -- March 9, 1975, London:

Prabhupāda: We are going to have the next body. That's a fact. So Bhagavad-gītā says that how you can have the next body.

yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni
mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām
(BG 9.25)

"So you can go to the higher planetary system. Prepare yourself in that way. You can go to the pitṛloka. You can remain within this world. And you can come to Me also." So if I have to prepare myself for the next life, why not go back to home, back to Godhead? Why unnecessarily go to the other planets or to the dogs and cats? Prepare in such a way that tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). No more material body. You go back to home, back... That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the best. After all, you have to prepare yourself for the next body. So why not prepare yourself for the next body as good as Kṛṣṇa's? Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). It is very intelligent movement. Any intelligent man should take it very seriously. If I have to prepare for my next life, why not prepare next life—just we are talking with you, you can go and talk with Kṛṣṇa. You can dance with Kṛṣṇa. You can eat with Kṛṣṇa. You can play with Kṛṣṇa. If there is such possibility, why should we waste our time in different way? That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran -- March 13, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: So when the animal comes to higher consciousness, that is spiritual consciousness. We are combined at the present moment. We are actually spiritual, but some way or other, we have come in contact with matter, and we are covered by the material body, and... But we cannot become happy with this material interest. That's a fact. Just like the fish cannot be happy on the land. The example is: just like the other day we saw one crocodile. One or two... two, three?

Paramahaṁsa: Two or three.

Prabhupāda: In where?

Paramahaṁsa: Caracas.

Prabhupāda: Caracas, yes. So one of the crocodile was on the land, and two were in the water. So in the water they were very living, alive. But in the land it was like dead.

Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran -- March 13, 1975, Iran:

Ambassador: So bhakti is really a process of decontaminating the mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Right you are. You are intelligent and... Yes. That is the real education. And all this rascal education will not help because all this education will keep him within this material body. And his real relief is how to get out of this material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is required, in Bhagavad-gītā. After giving up this body no more acceptance of this material body. That is real education. And Bhāgavata says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. There is no need of becoming father unless you train up your child to accept no more this material body. The child should be trained up by the father. The guru should train up the disciple in such a way that the disciple or the child or the student will not have to accept any more this material body. That is education. And the whole Vedic education is meant for this purpose. (break) ...in his original spiritual life, that is mukti. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that—to educate people how to achieve his original consciousness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Morning Walk -- April 2, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Everything exists. For the time being, he may merge; then again he'll come to enjoy this material body. Āruhya kṛccheṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ. Patanty adhaḥ. Even they become merged into the existence of Brahman, again they come back because there is no āśraya. Just like these air, airplanes or the jets. They have invented very good machine, eighteen thousand miles per hour, going very high, but there is no place. They come down again. That is a fact. What is the use of going so high, eighteen thousand miles per hour, and travel and then again come back. Why do you take unnecessary trouble if you cannot stay there? You migrated from Europe and other countries to America. You got shelter. You stayed there. That colonization was successful. But if you are going to colonize in the moon and there is no place to stay, then why you are spending so much money unnecessarily? What is this foolishness? And they have stopped now. So in this way they are trying to merge into the Brahman effulgence, but where to stay? They can stay in the Brahman effulgence as minute particle of soul, but the soul wants ananda, then again—"It was better to live in the material world." They come back again. That is statement of the śāstra. Āruhya kṛccheṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ. They may go very high, same way as the jets are going, but there is no shelter. Shelter is the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- (World War III) -- April 4, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Atomic body? Atomic body means material body. Unless you are free from this material body, the atomic body will go on with you. That means unless you are mukta, the atomic body will go on. Mind, intelligence, ego—they are also atomic, finer atomic body.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But within each atom the living entity is present?

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is present; therefore living entity is present.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the living entity is present within the atom just as I am present within this body. When I leave this body, my body breaks apart.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you leave this body, enter another body.

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: That's all right, because you have got this body. And after giving up this body, completely, blissful life. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). You are not going to get another body of suffering, that is your advantage. And these rascals, they are going to continue one body after another simply suffering. And for the devotees, although they do not suffer, it is just like, the fan is moving, you make the switch off. It is actually not moving, it is by the last force it is moving, but the switch is off. And it will stop, suffering. But you have no such chance, you will simply go on suffering, moving, moving, moving, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You shall have to accept one body, suffer, and again give up this body. Another body suffer, because so long as you accept material body, this body or that body, you will have to suffer. Material body means suffering. So those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will change bodies one after another, and continue to suffer threefold miseries. And devotees, actually they are not suffering, but even if you say they are suffering, so after giving up this body, they are no more accepting material body. They will remain in spiritual body.

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1975, Mayapur:

Yaśodānandana: ...which he is satisfied with, we also have a standard of happiness which we are satisfied with, as devotees. Could there be... Who is to say there is not a higher standard of happiness, higher than what we think is the ultimate happiness? See, we are thinking that to become liberated from this material body and go back to home is the highest happiness, and we are feeling this is our standard of happiness.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Because the happiness which you are enjoying these are not actually satisfying. You are not actually satisfied, therefore you want transfer of happiness from this field to that field. That means you are not actually happy. Otherwise, why these rascals they are enjoining the same vagina at home and why they go to see vagina in the theater? The vagina is there, but they think that to see vagina at home is not so good, but to see vagina on the stage is better. That is all. Disappointment. You'll see the same vagina, here and there. You'll go there by purchasing ticket. That is your misfortune.

Conversation with Devotees -- April 14, 1975, Hyderabad:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They may argue that the knowledge which you say you have, it doesn't stop all of these things from happening to you. You're also suffering from symptoms of...

Prabhupāda: Yes. But I'm trying because I have got this material body like you, so I have to suffer like you. But I'm making treatment. You are not making treatment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the effects appear to be the same on everyone.

Prabhupāda: No. We are not so much after doctors or medical...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your students also suffer from diseases and all...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. So long the body's there, one has to suffer. That we tolerate. That is advised in the Bhagavad-gītā,

mātrā sparśās tu kaunteya
śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
āgamāpāyino nityās
tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
(BG 2.14)

Titikṣa, we know how to tolerate. We are not mad after curing. We know these things will happen so long I have got this body.

Morning Walk -- May 11, 1975, Perth:

Devotee (1): (break) ...till they give up their lusty desires.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required because unless you give up your lusty desires, you will have to remain in this material world, and to remain in the material means suffering. If you actually do not want suffering, then you have to practice all these things so that you can go to the spiritual world. That is the aim of life. And for going to the spiritual world, you have to be completely, cent percent free from all material desires. And so long you will have material desires, you have to accept one material body. Nature is so kind, or the law of nature is so perfect. As long as you will have a little pinch of material desire, then you will have to accept. That's all. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad... And that material life means you may become a grass or you may become a demigod like Brahmā. That will depend on your desire. But you will have to accept. (end)

Room Coversation with Psychiatrist and Indian Boy -- May 12, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: He says he just wished to meet you. Perhaps I should read a verse. Should I read a verse?

Prabhupāda: No. Our viewpoint is that in the material world, who has accepted this material body—anyone, but we specially take the human society—they require treatment, everyone. Everyone is mentally diseased, and therefore he is unhappy. Everyone. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād-guṇa (SB 5.18.12). Anyone who has no sense of God consciousness, he is diseased mentally. He requires treatment. The whole human society, especially at the present moment, they have given up God consciousness. They are not interested. That is their disease. And everyone requires treatment. So the whole Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the mass treatment of the materialistic persons who are mentally diseased. That is our proposition. It is... In India there was a case. A man committed murder, and he pleaded in the court that... His pleader, his lawyer, pleaded that he was mad at that time. We also accept unless one becomes mad, one cannot commit murder or suicide. So the civil surgeon was brought to give evidence whether this man is actually mad.

Room Coversation with Psychiatrist and Indian Boy -- May 12, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: There is ghost. And sometimes ghost attacks a man. Because he has no material body, he wants to act through other's body. So the man who is attacked, he forgets himself, and he speaks and walks according to the dictation of the ghost. That is called ghostly haunted man.

Śrutakīrti: What is the significance of... What is this?

Prabhupāda: He talks nonsense. Suppose his father comes before him, he calls him by ill names, like that. He talks nonsense. So anyone who is too much materially affected, he also talks nonsense. Anartha upāsamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. The treatment is bhakti-yoga. That we are teaching. Without any exception, we accept everyone a patient for psychiatric treatment. He has this book?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then all other books we can show him.

Room Coversation with Psychiatrist and Indian Boy -- May 12, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: So, everyone is attracted with the woman's body. In your country I have seen the advertisement: "bottomless," "topless..." That is the material attraction. Everyone is in this material world on account of attachment. And similarly, for woman, the man's body is beautiful. So in this way both of them are attached to one another. That is the basic principle of material life. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). They become attached. On account of sex life, they become more attached, and therefore both of them remain almost perpetually in this material world, and to satisfy different desires they transmigrate from one body to another. And on account of accepting this material body, there is always miserable condition. Therefore everyone requires the psychiatric treatment so that the mind may be transferred from matter to spirit soul. Then he will be cured. The disease is of the mind. Harāv abhaktasy kuto mahād-guṇa mano-rathena. Everyone is riding on the chariot of mind. And the mind is taking him here and there, here... And the yoga practice is also treatment. This is also yoga, bhakti-yoga, and this ordinary haṭha-yoga, that is also treatment of the mind.

Morning Walk -- May 13, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: They think that suffering together with your friends is enjoying.

Prabhupāda: No, they... Just like the ass. He does not know what is happening. Therefore he is agreeing, "All right, load with me any number of heavy weight. I shall carry." He does not know it is suffering. He has accepted the service of the man, bearing so much load, and he is giving little grass. The grass he can take from here, but he thinks that "He is maintaining me." Just see. This is ignorance. Therefore mūḍhā, this word is used. Suffering, suffering, suffering. Material nature is awarding sufferings after suffering. Still, they are not wake up. Who cares for suffering? (break) ...stand this philosophy that acceptance of this material body is suffering. They will say, "Oh, I have got this American body. I have got so much opulence. What is suffering?" He'll not believe. But real philosophy is that acceptance of this material body, whatever it may be, the demigod or dog, it is suffering. Who will understand? Even the demigods, they do not understand.

Devotee (1): They say that "It's natural to die. So everybody has to die. So we just have to accept it."

Prabhupāda: No, the philosophy is very simple. You don't want suffering, but where is a person who has got this material body is not suffering?

Paramahaṁsa: But then they will say, "Where is a person who has not got this material body?"

Prabhupāda: There, that is unknown to them. There is another world where there is no material body. Everyone is in spiritual body. That they do not know. That is ignorance.

Paramahaṁsa: They don't feel so bad because they think everyone is suffering, so...

Prabhupāda: So nobody feels bad, even the cats and dogs. That does not mean there is no suffering. Cats and dogs... Just like in this car, the gentleman, his wife, and the dog. The dog is feeling more happy.

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:
Prabhupāda: So that we have to tolerate. Therefore it is called titikṣā. Śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣā ārjavam. Ārjavam means simple life, simplicity, that "If I can live in this way, why shall I acquire so many things for artificial life?" That is called ārjavam. Śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣā ārjavam, then jñānam. Jñānam means knowledge that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul. My..." Actually that is the fact. This body is not important. The living force within the body is important. As soon as the living force goes out of the body, what is this value? You may be a great geographer or scientist or Professor Einstein or whatever. As soon as the living force is gone, you are useless, this body is useless. You have to throw it. That is jñānam, that "I am taking so much care of this material body, which will not exist, which I shall, become... 'Dust thou art; dust thou beist.' Again it will mix up with these dirty things. I am taking so much care of this body. What about that living force, which is important?"
Room Conversation with Ganesa dasa's Mother and Sister -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: This is the solution of the real problem, that after... If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then after giving up this body, you don't accept another material body. And in the material existence the problems are not solved because you have to, after death, you have to accept another material body. And as soon as you accept a material body, the sufferings are there, at least these four sufferings: birth, death, old age, and disease. So it continues. If you take the body of a human being, the birth, death, old age, disease are there. If you take the body of a heavenly demigod, the birth, death, old age, and disease are there. Or if you take the body of a dog, the birth, death, old age, disease are there. So any kind of birth, material body, you have to accept these four problems. And there are many other problems. But if you stop accepting a material body, then these things are finished. So we are training people, simply janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9). What is the purport?

Gaṇeśa: "Purport. The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the sixth verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage, and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogis attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then, the liberation they achieve—merging into the impersonal brahma-jyotir of the Lord—is only partial, and there is the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33).

Room Conversation with Ganesa dasa's Mother and Sister -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Sister: But your body still suffers death, old age.

Prabhupāda: Yes, as soon as you get a material body, you have to suffer. Either this body, Australian body or American body or dog's body or cat's body or tree's body, any body, material world, you will have to suffer. First of all, this transfer of body, that is also suffering. In the material world it is only suffering, but because people are in ignorance, they take suffering as enjoyment.

Mother: Then why there is so much human suffering?

Prabhupāda: Because he has accepted this material body.

Mother: And this is why there's so much human suffering.

Prabhupāda: Yes, on account of accepting a material body. Therefore every one of us should try how to avoid this process of accepting a material body. That should be our only endeavor, not to make a temporary solution. That is not very good solution.

Room Conversation with Ganesa dasa's Mother and Sister -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Sister: What about for a child, a newly born baby. Are they born into a material body because of their parents' bad doings?

Prabhupāda: No, he has taken that particular body in terms of his past activities. One is born as a human child; one is born as a dog, cat; one is born as something else. So according, the body is offered by material nature according to his work. That we were discussing, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). Material nature, by the order... God is within you. God is sitting there. He knows what you want. So God orders material nature, "Give him such and such body. He wants to enjoy like this." So material nature... Just he gives up this body, he is under the control of the material nature. The material nature sends him to such a father and the father gives the semina in the mother's womb, and mother gives him the body.

Room Conversation with Ganesa dasa's Mother and Sister -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Then he will suffer. He will constantly change his body one after another, sometimes good body, sometimes bad body, and he will suffer. So as soon as you accept a material body, you will suffer. It may be good body or bad body. It doesn't matter. Suffering is there. When a dog is taking birth, he has to take the suffering within the womb of his mother, and when a human man, human body is coming out, he has also to take the... It is not joke to remain ten months within the packed-up abdomen of the mother. Is it very pleasant, do you think? If you are kept in that way now, you will die within three seconds. In that condition you have to live ten months. So how much suffering it was!

Mother: Suffering for whom?

Prabhupāda: Suffering for the man who is taking birth. Sometimes now they are killing. The mother is killing. The time is coming so bad that mother is killing child.

Sister: What about like euthanasia, say. Isn't that nonacceptance of a material body? If by some, for some reason the child isn't allowed to be born?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is said here, that if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then after giving up this body—this is material body, you have to give up—so you are not coming again in the womb of another material mother. You are transferred to the spiritual world by nature's law. They do not know the subtle laws which is going on underneath. They are simply concerned superficially. Because they have no knowledge of the spirit soul—they think the body is everything—so therefore knowledge is imperfect. Body is only the covering. Real person is the spirit soul. So the modern education has no knowledge of this.

Discussion -- May 15, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: ...if there is government laws, if you do not know it and you act independently, then you are making your life risky. So this is the case of the government law, and what to speak of God's law, nature's law, how strict it is. You can avoid government's law, but you cannot avoid nature's law. That is not possible. So that is the defect of the modern civilization: they do not know how nature is working, and they are keeping themself in ignorance, and they are suffering, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one body after another. And if he becomes a tree, stand up for five thousand years. And we have to pass through all these stages. He has come to the human form of body. Still he neglects. He continues suffering. They are mad after sense enjoyment; and accepting different material bodies, that means suffering. As soon as you accept a material body, this is suffering. But the suffering of the trees is more suffering. In a forlorn place he stand up for five thousand years and tolerate all the blast, wind, scorching heat, water.

Morning Walk -- May 17, 1975, Perth:

Amogha: He was a bad one, but some of them are good.

Prabhupāda: No, no, some... Everyone is bad. The man who is talking, he is also bad man. Everyone is bad man. Here there is no good man. Do you think in the prison house any good men go there? All criminals. So anyone who has come in this material world, he is a criminal. Therefore he is punished by this material body, simply suffering. Why you have covered? Because this body cannot tolerate this cold. So the body means suffering, material body. Anyone who has got this material body, he is suffering. Nobody is enjoying. (It) is a wrong idea. He is thinking... That is called māyā. He is suffering, but he is thinking, "I am enjoying." This is called māyā.

Paramahaṁsa: But the schoolteachers, and the church leaders, and my parents, and grandparents, they all seem to think that it's all right what we're doing, so...

Prabhupāda: But because they are all rascals. Therefore we say all rascals. They may think like that, but our conclusion is anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal. He may be my teacher or father or anyone. He is a rascal. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. "One who cannot save me from the impending danger of birth, death, old age, and disease, he is not my father, he is not my teacher, he is not my guru, he is not my kinsman, he is not my wife, he is not my husband." So many list. So who has got this knowledge, how to save one from the cycle of birth, death, and old age? It is only we, Kṛṣṇa conscious people. We are teaching. Stop your this cycle of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. Come to eternal life and blissful life. So we are the only friends. All are enemies even in the shape of friend or father or teacher-enemies. They do not know the art.

Room Conversation with Jesuit -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: We have got this material body and spiritual soul. That is in this material condition there is distinction between the spirit and matter. As soon as the spirit goes from this material body, it has no value.

Jesuit: No life, true.

Prabhupāda: It is matter only, lump of matter, combination of matter. Therefore the spirit is important even in this life.

Jesuit: Oh, I see that, of course.

Prabhupāda: Yes, spirit is important. But God is fully spirit, He has no material quality. Yes. We have got, in this material condition, difference between the matter and spirit, but God has not so, such thing. He is whole spirit. That is the difference between God...

Jesuit: And also, as a result, the human, you, I, all these, we're all persons separate from one another, distinct from one another, and distinct from God, who is a separate person.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, we admit that.

Morning Walk -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: This beginning and end, that is troublesome. So in the material body, it has beginning and end. Therefore it is... But they do not understand it. They think, "It is all right." I don't want to end this body but there is end. Neither I want to begin, but there is beginning. That is the trouble. But we are so dull-headed, we do not understand that anything which has beginning and end, that is troublesome. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate: (BG 8.19) "It begins and ends." That requires intelligence, that "I am eternal. Why should I accept anything which has beginning and end?" That is intelligence.

Morning Walk -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Madhudviṣa: But would that mean that a person who is a pure devotee doesn't have to die?

Prabhupāda: No, die... Pure or nonpure, nobody dies.

Madhudviṣa: Though his material body dies.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But a pure devotee goes back to home. There is no more material body. That is the... So we are advocating that you come to this stage where you will not to have accept this material body. Then you are really happy. And if you want to enjoy the flickering, illusory māyā, then you are subjected to the māyā. You are enjoying as American. Then you enjoy as a dog. That is māyā's control. But if you don't enjoy material things then you become purified. You come to the eternal life, back to home, back to Godhead. But they are not willing to give up this material enjoyment. That is the defect. So it requires education. It requires knowledge. It requires training.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That is called māyā. This is māyā. The philosophy of māyā, māyā means what is not. Mā-yā. Mā means not, yā means this. So māyā means the conclusion, as you have made, that is not. That is not the fact. So we are claiming, "America is our", "Australia is our", "India is our". Nothing our. Everything God's. The best conclusion is, "It is God's property. God has given us to live. Let us thank God, feel obliged to Him, and glorify Him." That is our vision. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You accept the real position, that nothing belongs to you, everything belongs to God. You also belong to God. Your body, yourself, everything belongs to God. This body is material body. That material energy, earth, water, air, fire—everything belongs to God. This sea belongs to God, water, vast water. You have not created, neither your forefather has created. So this body is made of earth, water, air, fire, five elements. So your, the body is also God's.

Morning Walk -- May 23, 1975, Melbourne:

Australian devotee 2: So it is the fault of the education.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is the responsibility of the government, guardians, father. They do not give them proper education. Therefore Bhāgavata says, "If you cannot give proper education to your children, then don't marry. Don't become father." That is contraceptive. If you are unable to give... What is that? Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. Samupeta-mṛtyum: this body means you have accepted death. This body means, material body. So one should not become a father if he cannot stop the death of his son. That is the Vedic injunction. "Don't become a father, don't become a mother, if you cannot train your children so that he may be saved from this impending death." That is the instruction. And who is doing that? Their philosophy is: "After death everything is finished. I will be finished. My child will be finished. That's all."

Radio Interview -- May 25, 1975, Fiji:
Prabhupāda: Therefore our paper's name is Back to Godhead. Don't make any false advancement. You will never be happy. This is our propaganda. It is called nivṛtti-mārga. Nivṛtti-mārga means stop material way of life; begin spiritual way of life and come to Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). If you cultivate spiritual life, then, after giving up this body... We have to give up. This is material body. And after giving up this body, we can accept..., we can continue our spiritual body or we can accept again material body. That will require our sense how to cultivate. So if we cultivate spiritual life, some percentage, not that everyone will be able, at least the higher class, higher section of the society, if they cultivate spiritual life and remain ideal, so others may follow. This is our propaganda.
Radio Interview -- May 25, 1975, Fiji:

Prabhupāda: Relevance mean you are spirit soul. You are not this body. This thing first you have to understand. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is India's philosophy, that "I am spirit soul." And if you realize brahmāsmi, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na... (BG 18.54). As soon as you realize that you are not this material body, you are spirit soul, then immediately you become jolly, prasannātmā. Prasannātmā means na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He has no more any hankering for things which he does not possess, no more any lamenting which he has lost. Take, for example, that we have lost our portion of country as Pakistan and fighting since... This was a plan by the British government that divide them in such a way. They will perpetually fight. They will never be happy. This was their plan. That has been successful. But we are lamenting. Both... Pakistan is lamenting or not, I do not know, but Hindustan is lamenting. Gandhi was against this partition. But Jawaharlal Nehru, just to become prime minister, immediately divided.

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: This earthly planet is also bright?

Paramahaṁsa: I'm not sure.

Gurukṛpa: Within this universe are there other planets similar to the earthly planet where the inhabitants are getting the same, similar material bodies?

Prabhupāda: No, every planet there are inhabitants.

Gurukṛpa: But similar to this?

Prabhupāda: Hm. (aside:) Don't come very near.

Gurukṛpa: This is called martya-loka, and are there other...

Prabhupāda: Not similar. Every planet is different from the other. Just like in down planets there is no sunlight, so how they can be one? There the light arrangement is different. (break)

Devotee (1): ...He displays His Vṛndāvana only on the earthly-like planet?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Vṛndāvana is there already.

Morning Walk -- June 2, 1975, Honolulu:

Harikeśa: Like the moon planet is heavenly planet. They're supposed to have subtle bodies there. So would there be any gross forms?

Prabhupāda: Why subtle body? That is material body.

Harikeśa: So we would not be able to see any traces of a civilization?

Prabhupāda: There is civilization. You have not gone there, rascal. You are simply imagining. (Devotees laugh) There is civilization. First thing is, you rascal, you did not go. You are talking only nonsense. That's it.

Paramahaṁsa: (break) ...Rahu planet, that's a hellish planet?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They might have gone to that hellish planet. That's all.

Bali-mardana: No wonder they left.

Paramahaṁsa: That seems more befitting them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes!

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: ...injunction, apāṇi-pado javano grahīta, is, "He, the God, has no leg, no hand, but He accepts gift." "Accepts gift," means He has got hand, but why it is said, "No leg, no hand"? That means He has no material hand and leg. He has His hands and legs, but that is spiritual. That is the meaning. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). His body is made of spiritual eternity... This body is not eternal. But God has got His eternal body. There is no question of God's becoming old. Because His body is eternal. It is the material body which is not eternal. That is subjected to old age, disease, birth, death. What is this big house? (break) ...stated that he came to cheat the atheists. They did not believe in God, but God came as Buddha.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: And he said, "Yes, you are right. There is no God."

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That information we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, after giving up this material, he is not coming any more with this material body. This is our philosophy. And if you again die and again come another material body, so what is the use of this education? You cannot dictate that "My mother nature, don't make me a dog next life." She is not subjected to your dictation. She is subjected by Kṛṣṇa's dictation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). She is not your servant, you are servant of the nature. So you are declaring independence, but you are servant of the material nature. That they are not thinking. Unnecessarily they are thinking independence. What is the nonsense independence? You are dependent on the laws of nature, and you are thinking independence. How much foolishness it is. This is psychology. They are wrongly thinking how to correct them. Is it not? Are they not wrongly thinking? Everyone is thinking, "I am independent. I can do whatever I like." How much foolish he is.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Mind is there in the soul, but the mind is now polluted by material contamination. Just like a madman. He has got his mind, but his mind is contaminated. Therefore he requires treatment by psychiatrist. You cannot say the madman has no mind. He has got mind, but it is contaminated. You have to make treatment. So mind is there. Everything is there in the soul. And now the mind, contaminated by the matter, it is perverted. The same example: A madman has got mind, but it is useless. He is simply acting in madness. The same madman, when properly treated, he will act like a sane man. So mind is there always, in the pure soul or in the material body. Everything is spiritual. The soul is spiritual; the mind is spiritual; the intelligence is spiritual. But it is now contaminated. So you have to make treatment. When it is purified, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then mind is controlled, intelligence properly acting, and soul is in his proper position. Therefore those who are under treatment, they must be strict observation—he may not do something wrong so that treatment may be hampered.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

John Mize: But he misused that intelligence in his freedom, his independence.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Mind is there also. That is spiritual mind. Everything is spiritual. There is nothing material. Body spiritual, mind spiritual, intelligence spiritual, he is spiritual, the land spiritual, water spiritual—everything is spiritual. That is spiritual world. Here in the material world, except the spirit soul, everything is material. And he is encumbered with this material atmosphere by twenty-seven stratas, layers. The five elements, gross elements, then ten senses, and then three guṇas... In this way there are twenty-seven layers. He is within, and he has to be taken out. That is called liberation. Just like if you are covered with twenty-seven layers of dirty things, so it is very difficult position. But there is process to clear the garbage and take him out. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious movement, to take the soul out of the covering of twenty-seven layers of material atmosphere. That śloka is naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu: "almost cleansed." Abhadra, abhadra means dirty things. So this clearing process going on. When it is almost cleansed the man feels, "Oh..." And that process: nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā (SB 1.2.18), constantly being engaged in the service of Bhāgavata, grantha-Bhāgavata and the person Bhāgavata. Then it will be cleansed. And then, when he comes out, that is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54), "Oh, I am now free." Na śocati na..., no more lamentation, no more greediness. Everything finished. Then he begins his real business as part and parcel of God. That is perfection.

Morning Walk -- June 27, 1975, Los Angeles:
Prabhupāda: So Rāmacandra had to agree. And on account of taking this wife along with Him, there was so much trouble. And the husband is so responsible that... Lord Rāmacandra, He is God. He could create thousands and millions of Sītās, but not for one Sītā He killed the whole family. That is husband. That is the duty of the husband. If wife's a little hair is infringed, he should take steps immediately. That is husband, not that accept wife today and give it up tomorrow. That is not husband. Husband must be very responsible to take care of the wife, and wife must be very chaste to serve the husband. Then family life is all right. (break) ...do not understand that "I am a living entity. I am encaged in this material body, and this material body means subjected to so many miserable condition." That they cannot understand. So my first business is how to be free from this repetition of accepting a material body. That they are not... A temporary life for fifty years or sixty years, they are busy, making very, very, gorgeous arrangement. This is asuric civilization. He does not take it very seriously that "I am encaged in this material body. My first business is how to get out of it and remain in my spiritual body." They get one type of body, and, like cats and dogs, engage, how to keep that body in sense gratification. That's all. (break) ...spiritual education, that "I am spiritual, spirit soul. I am encaged in this body. I want freedom. That is my first business, how to become liberated." No, that question set aside. Now, for the time being, we are walking here, and if there is some misunderstanding, we fight, forgetting that we have come here for walking, say, for half an hour. And why we shall forget our real business? That intelligence is not there. (break) ...India the Indira Gandhi was made as all in all. Now there is a catastrophe. We do not know what is going to happen.
Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:
Prabhupāda: So in this way, there is no sex in the vānaprastha. Simply the wife remains as assistant. And she also practices austerities. And then the husband, when he is fully mature, he sends wife back to his elderly children to take care of her and he takes sannyāsa. So this is spiritual advancement, and in sannyāsa life, one is absolutely dedicated for the service of God. So in this way his life becomes perfect. And according to his perfection, he gets next birth in higher planetary system. In the upper planets, planetary system, there is Svargaloka up to the third-class man. And then, above that, there are Janaloka, Maharloka, Tapaloka, Satyaloka, Brahmaloka. And beyond that, there is spiritual world. So in this way life becomes perfect. If you want, you can go to the spiritual world. Spiritual world means no more accepting this material body. And so long we are in this material world we repeat one body after another. And if we degrade ourself to become criminals, then we degrade to the hellish planets down this universe. So human civilization means by nature's way, by evolutionary process, he has come to this body of human being. He should now decide that whether he should remain in this chain of birth and death or he should get out of it and go to the spiritual world. This training required. So throughout the whole world there is no such institution to study all this fact. They are going just like fourth-class men. They have decided out of their own accord that there is no life after death. Young men say that there is no old age, but nature will not agree. Your next life is old age. That is natural. You cannot say, "No, no, I don't believe in it." You believe or not believe, it will come. Similarly, you believe or not believe, your next life is there. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: There is no purport of Devahūti?

Nitāi: "Here the word asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt is significant. Asat means 'impermanent,' 'temporary,' and indriya means 'senses.' Thus asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt means 'from being agitated by the temporarily manifest senses of the material body.' We are evolving through different statuses of material bodily existence sometimes in a human body, sometimes in an animal body—and therefore the engagements of our material senses are also changing. Anything which changes is called temporary, or asat. We should know that beyond these temporary senses are our permanent senses, which are now covered by the material body. The permanent senses, being contaminated by matter, are not acting properly. Devotional service, therefore, involves freeing the senses from this contamination. When the contamination is completely removed and the senses act in the purity of unalloyed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we have reached the sad-indriya, or eternal sense activities. The eternal sensual activities are called devotional service, whereas temporary sensual activities are called sense gratification. Unless one becomes tired of material sense gratification, there is no opportunity to hear transcendental messages from a person like Kapila. Devahūti expressed that she was tired. Now that her husband had left home, she wanted to get relief by hearing the instructions of Lord Kapila."

Prabhupāda: So this full book is the answer and question between mother and son. So, although she is mother, she has given birth to the child, but she has become now dependent on this child for good instruction. This is ideal society.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: Who is that father?

Woman: Only this material body is gone.

Prabhupāda: Material body is there, lying on the bed.

Ravīndra-svarūpa: His body is there. And you say, "My father is gone." So what is gone?

Woman: Well, his spirit is still...

Prabhupāda: But have you seen that spirit?

Woman: No.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot see the spirit, and God is Supreme Spirit. Therefore, to show kindness upon you, He has appeared just like wood and stone so that you can see.

Conversation with Professor Hopkins -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: This is the most important message. Because you are not this material body. Suppose you have got this shirt. If you simply try to maintain this shirt, is that very good intelligence, without taking care of your person? Similarly, if we are spirit soul and the body is just like dress, so the whole material world is, everyone is engaged to take care of the body. Nobody knows what is spirit soul, what is this need. Nobody knows. All these educational institutions, they are blind. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). And the whole system is also blind. If a blind man leads another blind man what is the benefit? No benefit. Therefore in your country, every country, it is a blind education. No spiritual enlightenment.

Morning Walk -- July 14, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: They are separate identity.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it looks like, though, in the material body the one cannot exist without another. They look like interdependent.

Prabhupāda: That may be, but still, they are individuals.

Ravīndra-svarūpa: When the jīva in the heart dies, then all the other cells in the body also have to die.

Prabhupāda: No.

Ravīndra-svarūpa: No, they don't. But when the body decays, doesn't everything...

Prabhupāda: No. Dead body so many germs come out.

Ravīndra-svarūpa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: How it comes?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is different, though. When a body dies, then there are many germs from outside that...

Prabhupāda: Living entities within the body, they come out, hundreds and thousands. They have not died. Suppose in this jungle there are so many living entities. If I die, what has got to do with them?

Morning Walk -- July 14, 1975, Philadelphia:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: About Guru dāsa prabhu's point, when the heart transplant, the soul stays in the subtle body. Is that sound?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Soul is always staying in the subtle body, and the subtle body is left when he goes to God or kingdom of God.

Ravīndra-svarūpa: One thing I'm trying to understand is how is it that the soul wants different things and then the material body acts according to the desires of the soul? So there is a cause and thereis an effect. Normally all our cause and effect, we see one material thing causing another material thing to happen. But how is it the spirit causes? What is the connection that spirit causes matter to do so many things? The spirit is manipulating the matter, but how? How is that contact there?

Prabhupāda: Contact? It is already in contact. You are in the material body. It is already in contact.

Ravīndra-svarūpa: But I don't understand how that contact is working.

Prabhupāda: Contact is working under the direction of God. The individual soul desires, and God arranges to fulfill his desire with the help of prakṛti.

Morning Walk -- July 14, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: (laughing) The scientist is angry.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The soul is trapped as well as untrapped in the material body...

Prabhupāda: Because he wanted to be trapped.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But sometimes it is also untrapped. But sometimes he is also free.

Prabhupāda: No, by nature, he is not mixed up with these material things, but he is entrapped by his free will. Just like we are staying here. We are not bound to stay here, but we have come here. Nobody has forced us to come here.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So is that philosophy, simultaneously one and different...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversations -- July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach:

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Satsvarūpa: Purport. "Two persons, one in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the other in material consciousness, working on the same level, may appear to be working on the same platform, but there is a wide gulf of difference in their respective positions. The person in material consciousness is convinced by false ego that he is the doer of everything. He does not know that the mechanism of the body is produced by material nature, which works under the supervision of the Supreme Lord. The materialistic person has no knowledge that ultimately he is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as such his bodily and mental activities should be engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The ignorant man forgets that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is known as Hṛṣīkeśa, or the master of the senses of the material body, for due to his long misuse of the senses in sense gratification, he is factually bewildered by the false ego, which makes him forget his eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: So this is false ego, to think of oneself as free. You are professor of economics?

Mr. Surface: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I think I may remember. There is economist professor, Marshall? Marshall's economics?

Mr. Surface: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You know him? You must be knowing. I think he gives definition of economic impetus-family affection. I was also a student of economics in my student life, Scottish Churches' College. So we had to read this Marshall economics, I think. That definition, that what is the economic impetus, why people want to earn money? So the reason, he gives-due to some family affection. Am I right?

Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And because it is not contaminated, therefore it is not ordinary body. Therefore anyone who thinks of Kṛṣṇa as possessing ordinary body, he is described as mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ (BG 9.11). In the ordinary human, this material body, nobody can be controller of the laws of nature. That is not possible. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Unless one has got spiritual body, it is not possible to be unaffected by this material world. Kṛṣṇa never became old although He lived for a 125 years. He never became old. Now, how you can say...?

Dr. Patel: He was the controller of māyā but we are being controlled by the māyā.

Prabhupāda: No, no, anyway, a 125-years-old and looking like a young man of twenty years old. How it is possible in a material body?

Dr. Patel: So all the avatāras of God, they come with a controlling...

Prabhupāda: Ātma-māyā.

Dr. Patel: Controlling.

Prabhupāda: Sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). They do not come under the control of this mahāmāyā. They have got their own spiritual potency. Āhlādinī-śakti. Ātmanaṁ sṛjāmy aham. Ātmanam: Myself, I advent." How it can be like ordinary man? We are... karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). We get body.

Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: He takes the body to fulfill His mission.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way. That is real understanding of Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon as the Māyāvādī thinks that Kṛṣṇa also accepts a material body... Therefore they are called Māyāvādī. They are called Māyāvādī because they think Kṛṣṇa's body is also māyā. Therefore they are known as Māyāvādīs.

Dr. Patel: He takes birth in divya-vigraha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Their story is: "As soon as there is form, it is māyā." They cannot think beyond that in their own terms. Because we have got this form, material body, so their generalization is "As soon as Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, anyone, if He takes this form, then it is material." That is called māyā.

Dr. Patel: But He takes the form with the control over māyā. We take the form under control of māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the controller of māyā. That they do not understand.

Morning Walk -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: Satyānanda-cid-ātmani. Yogis, bhakti-yogis, they also want ānanda, but not this false ānanda, satyānanda-cid-ātmāni, iti... Therefore they call Rāma. Rāma means ramaṇa, enjoyment. Iti rāma-padenāsau paraṁ brahmābhidhiyate (CC Madhya 9.29). They do not know what is satyānanda. They do not understand, as soon as we accept this material body, it is misery, simply misery. The body is constructed within the womb of the mother in a miserable condition. These rascals, they do not understand. In a packed-up way, head down, leg up. And it is enjoyment. The body is created in this troublesome, from miserable condition; still, they say, "enjoyment." This is foolishness. This is called illusion.

Brahmānanda: Sigmund Freud, his philosophy is that that position in the womb was one of great security, and we all want to go back to that position.

Prabhupāda: Where is security? The mother is killing them, abortion. Where is security? The mother, under whose abdomen I have taken shelter, she is killing. Where is security?

Indian man (1): One Ārya-samājī in Nairobi, he was saying that the body is only made in three months, not in seven months in the abdomen of a mother.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Indian man (1): He said the body only...

Prabhupāda: The body is made in one night.

Room Conversation -- October 15, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Syphilis. In Ayur-Vedic it is called phairanga, means this disease is imported from Western countries. Every dog has syphilis, and they contaminate the woman, and that is distributed to man. According to Vedic civilization, dog is untouchable. Now in India also, to keep a dog is aristocracy. Yes. Especially the tail cut. Now half-cut tail, that is aristocratic dog. Now they are making dog show in New Delhi. (break) Adjust. Kleṣada asa deha. Material body means different ways of giving trouble. I have got one trouble. He has got one trouble. He has got another trouble. He has got another. But nobody is coming to the senses that it is troublesome. And troublesome, at the same time you'll not be allowed to continue. It has to be ended. Then another change of body, and what kind of body you are going to get? That you do not know.

Room Conversation -- October 15, 1975, Johannesburg:

Harikeśa: What about all the sufferings of the body? Let's say one has a toothache or something like that.

Prabhupāda: No. That I have already said, that as soon as you accept this material body, you must suffer. That is the way.

Harikeśa: So if you fix one thing, another thing will just go bad?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot fix anything. You can simply think that "I am now fixed up." That is not possible. Even if you fix up one type of suffering, another type of suffering will come. So suffering must be there. The body means suffering. One should understand this, that asann api kleṣada asa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Na sādhu manye yato ātmano 'yam asannapi kleṣada asa dehaḥ. You are trying to adjust things, threefold miserable condition, but you should understand that as soon as you get this material body, it will be suffering only. Therefore whole Vedic civilization is a culture how to stop this material body. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they are also trying. The Buddhists, they are also trying. But they are thinking that "There is no soul. Finish this body." This is Buddhist theory. But they know that this is suffering. Similarly, the Māyāvādī, they also know this body is suffering, so they want to come out of the body and merge into the existence of God. The senses are already there, either Buddhist or Māyāvādī. And Vaiṣṇava philosophy is "Not only come out of this miserable condition of life, but enter into Kṛṣṇa's family and live peacefully." But so far the body is bad, it is accepted by all philosophies. Any kind of Indian philosophy, they will accept that body is bad.

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You once said that anyone who has a material body is a rascal.

Prabhupāda: A rascal, that's all. And they are trying to maintain this body, although the rascals know it will not be maintained. You cannot. You are not allowed to maintain, neither you'll be allowed. Still, they are trying. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Which is impossible, cannot be allowed, and they are trying for it. How this body can be maintained? "Yes, we are trying. Now the disease has been reduced. Now they are living more days." These are their foolish. They will never say "No, it is impossible." Still, they will support their rascal endeavors. (aside:) No, that's all right.

Morning Walk -- October 26, 1975, Mauritius:

Brahmānanda: Because he was standing still?

Prabhupāda: Yes. For so many years everything was eaten. Only on the bones were there.

Brahmānanda: So he appeared to be dead, but he wasn't.

Prabhupāda: No, he was not dead. He was living on bones. Bones were there. Mean, life is not dependent on this material body. One can practice this by yoga. Without this body he can live. Just like ghost. That is possible.

Brahmānanda: Yes, the yogis are able to stop their breathing...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: ...and stop their heart beating, and still they are not dead.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is perfection of astanga-yoga, samādhi, to remain in trance. (break) Yes. Actually he was not dead.

Cyavana: He never died.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He practiced yoga from India. For twelve years he was there.

Morning Walk -- October 26, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: God has no material body.

Brahmānanda: Because he was not qualified to see God.

Prabhupāda: Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa nāmādi na bhaved grahyam indriyaiḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). By these material senses, you cannot understand God. Nāmādi. Even you cannot understand His holy name. Our understanding of God begins by chanting the holy name. So by chanting, chanting, because God is not different from the name, you associate with name..., er, with God, and then you become cleansed. This is the process. God is not different from His holy name. So you chant the holy name of God. That means you associate with God immediately. Just like you associate with the sun immediately, er, sunshine—you become warm—similarly, by associating with God, you become God conscious. This is our program. We are giving chance people to associate with God directly by chanting His holy name. God is omnipotent. His name is as omnipotent as He is. These fools, they do not know that.

Room Conversation -- October 29, 1975, Nairobi:
Prabhupāda: We have forgotten our position. Our posit..., normal position, is to love and serve Kṛṣṇa. Therefore anādi bahir mukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karila. Because we do not know... From time immemorial we cannot ascertain when this incidents have happened, to forget Kṛṣṇa, but it is practically... Life after life, life after life, we are changing body, but forgetting Kṛṣṇa. So here, in the human form of life, there is the opportunity to revive our original position, and we require the help of knowledge, perfect knowledge. And that is there in the Vedas. Atha eva kṛṣṇa veda purāṇa karila. If we don't take advantage, although we have got... We can read Bhagavad-gītā, and if we don't take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and go on whimsically, then we'll suffer. You cannot non-cooperate with Kṛṣṇa as you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. This is the... You must. There is no question of alternative. You may, may not know. It is not. You must. This is the position. Otherwise you'll never be happy. And happiness is your aim of life. Atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ. We are... I'm suffering from this knee's trouble because I am in this material world. I have got this material body. So atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ means no more material world, no more material body. And for that purpose we have to cooperate with Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is not possible. Any question about this? Just like these African women. They are going to work. There is no question of no work. They must. Otherwise they cannot eat. Anyone, if by working his livelihood is going on, how he can non-cooperate? This is not possible.
Morning Walk -- November 1, 1975, Nairobi:

Prabhupāda: Because you have this material body, you have got so many necessities and God has no material body. He has got spiritual body. He has no necessity. Apta kama. He is fully satisfied. He doesn't require to take anything.

Brahmānanda: He doesn't get hungry or thirsty.

Prabhupāda: Neither. Neither of these things because He hasn't got material body. You have got this material body; therefore you have got all these defects.

Indian man (5): Sometimes it was seen that the people that don't eat, then their body becomes very weak. Then the soul leaves the body after some time. People when they don't eat, their body becomes very weak, the soul leaves the body. Practically it has been seen.

Brahmānanda: Weak? Weak? The body becomes weak when they don't eat?

Indian man (5): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So that is all for the material body. Weakness or strength or dwindling or becoming old is ṣad-avikara. Ṣad-avikara means birth, then growth, then sustenance, then by-products, then dwindling, then finish. This ṣad-avikara, six kinds of changes, are meant for the material body, not for the spiritual.

Morning Walk -- November 11, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Time is eternity, but your formation is not eternity. Your formation is temporary. Time is eternity. (aside:) Thank you. No. Time is eternity, that's a fact, but your formation... Asann api klesada asa deha. It is temporary. That's all right. You know, I know, everyone. But it will simply give you pains, although it is asat. That you do not know. Time is... Body is temporary, but so long the body is there, you have to suffer. That body may be a ant's body or Brahma's body. So as soon as you get a material body, you have to suffer and go on examining urine and stool. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...and that is good wealth. And take some urine and find out, "Here is life." That's all. They are examining very scientifically. Why don't you...? The dead man's urine, if you examine and find out some injection and give it in life. Life is gone away, soul, and they are finding out life from the urine. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) ...but it is very reasonable. They are finding out out so many atoms, particles, but in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said that all these atoms are aparā, inferior. Find out the parā, the superior atom. That is life. (Hindi question and answer) But you cannot bring in life by so-called mantras. That is not possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) (break) ...can write to these particle men that "You are finding so many, but there is another particle which is one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. Find out that. That is life. That is superior." And quote Bhagavad-gītā, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. "Another atom." Give them information at least. (break)...Kṛṣṇa's message. Simply by reading one book, Bhagavad-gita, you become learned.

Morning Walk -- November 13, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Sarvaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 13.28), that I have explained so many times. If you see materially either dog or a big brāhmaṇa, the body is the same material. Body, when you dissect the body you find the same blood, same muscle, same bone. That's all. That is material. And spiritually they are atmān. Therefore sama-darśinaḥ. From that point of view, from basic point of view. Not that he is seeing a brāhmaṇa and dog equal. No. Not that. He is seeing the outward and inward. Inward is spirit. That is one. And outward, matter, that is one.

Dr. Patel: Another is śuni caiva śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the same thing, because he does not see the form; he sees the ingredients. Just like there are so many earthen pots, dolls. So any sane man knows that these are all made of earth. That's all. That vision is wanted, but these rascals, they are thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," "I am fat," "I am this," "I am that." Therefore they are imperfect.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Exactly the same way. In the factory there is big fire and there are workers also.

Harikeśa: But the life is the workers not the fire.

Prabhupāda: No. I mean to say, in the midst of fire, the living entity can live. That is my argument.

Akṣayānanda: But they can't jump in the fire and live. They will die.

Prabhupāda: No. That is material body. Spiritual... In the Bhagavad-gītā there is, (it says that) it does not burn into fire, in the fire. Adāhyaḥ, adāhyaḥ. So living entity is never burnt. Even if he's in the fire. So he may have a body of fire but he does not burn.

Akṣayānanda: But why should we accept that, because to make our factory we did not need Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Akṣayānanda: To make our factory we did not need Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Akṣayānanda: To make the factory... We have made such a nice factory for fire, so we did not need to consult Bhagavad-gītā for that.

Prabhupāda: I do not follow what he is saying.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1975, Vrndavana:

Harikeśa: But my body is ninety percent water.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: My body is ninety per cent water. The scientists say that this material body is ninety percent water.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: Human body. So I've got a watery body...

Prabhupāda: Ninety percent water?

Harikeśa: That's what they say.

Prabhupāda: They say. They are rascals. (laughter) So much bones and flesh and so many things, others. And ninety percent water.

Harikeśa: Well, they take a cell and they say in the cell...

Prabhupāda: "They take," they... Don't quote them, they are all rascals. You come to your own reason. They say, then you accept them as authority. Then why don't you accept authority of Bhagavad-gītā, rascal? You are quoting some rascals and fools, and I am quoting from Bhagavad-gītā. Then whose quotation is favorable? "They say." And when we say, "Kṛṣṇa says," that is nothing! Just see, how foolish. "They say." These rascals, meat eaters, huh? Bachelor daddies, (laughter) they say something, that is authority. And (if) Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead says, (then) "Oh, that we cannot accept." Just see nonsense. That I... This argument I put forward with Professor Kotovsky that, "After all, we have to follow leader. So your leader is Lenin. And my leader is Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difference between the process? You have to accept some authority. Now it is to be seen whether Lenin is perfect or Kṛṣṇa is perfect. That is another thing, but you have to follow some authority. So you are stopped."

Room Conversation -- December 14, 1975, New Delhi:
Prabhupāda: This is wisdom. And if we do not get this wisdom, simply like animals we continue to lord it over the material nature, by acquiring money. Dharma, artha, kama. Then we are spoiling our life. Separate times we become religious for being promoted to higher standard of life, economic development, big, big scheme, plans, how to make gorgeous city, buildings, roads, cars, slaughter house, scientific, how to cut throat very scientifically. These plans are going on. Some of them are trying to be religious to go to the heaven because he has heard, and that's a fact also, that heavenly planets the standard of living is more opulent, hundreds and thousands times, the sex enjoyment, is hundred and thousand times better. So by so-called religious functions and sacrifices, they are engaged the same, how to satisfy the senses. The dog is also anxious to satisfy his senses. As soon as he finds a female dog, he wants to make friendship with her and have sex. On the street, never mind. And similarly the demigods they are also engaged in the same business. In a different standard only. The business is the same. Āhāra-nidr-bhayam etam. So if one wants to continue this business then he'll continue this material body and if he wants to stop this business, come to his original position, then he makes real progress. But nobody is interested in advancement of spiritual life. Generally they take to religion, religiosity, for material happiness. Artho 'rhati. I am distressed, I have no money, or I am suffering from some disease; you'll find all these. So all of them go to the sādhus only for this purpose. Sir, I am suffering from some disease, so without going to the doctor, and saving so much money, let me pay hundred rupees to the sādhu and he'll give me his blessings. So I will save thousands of rupees, for curing the disease. For this purpose they go to sādhu. Nobody goes to sādhu for going back to home back to godhead. It is only (material) proposition. Otherwise the so-called yogis, sādhus, swamis, they are making good luck business simply by promising that you'll get this material power.
Morning Walk -- December 23, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Material nature means because you are in diseased condition in this material world, therefore according to the infection. Just like you have got body, and he has got body. You are suffering from typhoid; he is suffering from smallpox. So you have contaminated the typhoid germs, and he has contaminated smallpox. So the, this body is after all material body, so there is infection of material nature, tri-guṇātmaka. Therefore you have to transcend this position of tri-guṇātmaka. Then you are cured.

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicārena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa guṇān samatītyaitān
braham-bhūyāya kalpate
(BG 14.26)

If you transcend the infection of the three modes of material nature, then you are safe. So long you do not transcend, just like so long we infect some disease, then you must suffer. But if you don't infect, you'll not suffer. That is up to you. There is disease, cholera disease; why shall I go there? Why shall I infect my body in that way? That is up to you. If you don't take precaution, then you will suffer. Jaya.

Morning Walk -- December 23, 1975, Bombay:

Śrīdhara: The soul is pure, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: Yes, but he is covered by the material body. The material body is infected by the modes of material nature. Therefore, although he is pure, he is subjected. Just like when there is motor accident, you are separate from the motor, but you have to suffer. Everyone knows that I am separate from the motorcar, but why I am suffering? Because you have got bad car, you must suffer.

Conversation on Roof -- December 26, 1975, Sanand:

Prabhupāda: Therefore actually when they want to enjoy sex in the private room, they become naked. So they are seeking enjoyment with this material body, but they are not able to enjoy on account of being covered. This is the thesis.

Harikeśa: Hmmm. This is the Kṛṣṇa conscious thesis.

Prabhupāda: Well, why do you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness immediately? From practical point of view. So why they want to enjoy sex life being naked? That means covered enjoyment is not enjoyment. It is hampered enjoyment. Therefore we living entities, or, say, human beings, we want enjoyment. That's all right. But we are not able to enjoy fully because we are covered by something. This is the thesis. This is the thesis. But these rascals, or the ignorant persons, they do not know that "I am covered by something. Therefore my enjoyment is not complete." This is the thesis. So you answer this. Our enjoyment is not being completed on account of being covered by this material body. This is the thesis.

Page Title:Material bodies (Conv. 1968 - 1975)
Compiler:Mayapur
Created:07 of Oct, 2011
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=181, Let=0
No. of Quotes:181