Prabhupāda: What is the purpose of Vedas? To understand Kṛṣṇa. One who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, his Vedānta philosophy is nonsense. However you may advertise that "I am Vedāntist," is a pakka nonsense. Because he has not attained the perfection of Vedic knowledge. The perfection of Vedic knowledge is to know Kṛṣṇa, and that is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā: Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). After many, many births. Jñānavān. Jñānavān means Vedāntist. Not... They have made it, that Vedāntist... Vedāntist, Vaiṣṇavas, they are also Vedāntist, but it has become a common sense, a common affair that the impersonalists, they are called Vedāntists. Because, due to Śaṅkarācārya's propaganda, they have made their position as Vedāntists. But common men, they do not know that the Vaiṣṇavas are the best Vedāntists. We shall discuss Vedānta here also.
Many, many births (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: "Oh, these boys playing with Kṛṣṇa, they have attained this position, oh, after, I mean to say, accumulating many, many births pious activities." Kṛta-puṇya puñjāḥ. Just like a man collects dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, and one time he amasses money, say, millions of dollars. Similarly, Śukadeva Gosvāmī is describing that these boys who are playing with Kṛṣṇa, they have amassed their pious activities for millions and billions of births. Because with whom they are playing? They're playing, itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtya... Satāṁ. The stalwart philosophers who are after brahma-sukha, brāhmaṇanda. So that brahmaṇanda is here, Kṛṣṇa. And dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para daivatena. And for the devotees, He is the Supreme Lord. And māyāsritanam nara-dārakeṇa. Those who are covered in māyā, for them He is ordinary human boy. And with Him these boys are playing. They have amassed pious activities of many, many millions of births. Otherwise it was not possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because He was defeated. So Kṛṣṇa is accepting, "Yes, come on My shoulder." So this Kṛṣṇa-līlā, that also one who tries to understand and understands, they are also like those boys who have amassed pious activities of many, many births. It is not ordinary thing. Yes. And māyāśritānāṁ nara dārakeṇa. Those who are under the clutches of māyā, they will think these Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, "What is this? What is this? Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, they are enjoying about Kṛṣṇa's going to the field with some cows?" Yes. Just like one of our students, that Raṇacora. He asked me, "Swamiji, how is that God has become a cowherd boy?" Yes. Because ordinary people, they are thinking God must be so great, so great, great, that they cannot conceive. And that great personality, how He becomes a cowherd boy playing with cowherd boys? Yes. Brahmā also became astonished, and therefore he came to check "Whether He is my Lord or not?" (laughter) Yes. Bewildered.
Prabhupāda: We are very minute; therefore our..., we are subjected to the quality of forgetfulness. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was asking Kṛṣṇa that "How I can believe that you told this philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā to Vivasvān?" He said that "In... I, first of all, I told to Vivasvān." So in reply to that question, Kṛṣṇa said that "Both you and I had many, many births before, but you have forgotten; I remember." That is the difference between the Supreme Lord and ourself. He does not forget. He remembers everything, past, present, future, all, but we forget. That is the difference between God and living entity. We are subjected to forgetfulness. So we forget; again, if it is reminded, we remind. That is our nature. So at the present moment we are forgetful of our eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa. And then, by good association, by constant chanting, hearing, remembering, we again revoke our old consciousness. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So forgetfulness is not wonderful. It is natural. We forget.
Prabhupāda: That is perfection. And imperfection so long we are in rebelled condition that is material because one who has a slightest desire of disagreement with Kṛṣṇa, he cannot live there. There the only predominant figure is Kṛṣṇa. So one who is trained fully to agree with Kṛṣṇa, they are accepted as associates. Bhagavad-gītā says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ pradadyate: (BG 7.19) after many, many births of cultivating knowledge in spiritual life, a fully conversant, wise person surrenders unto Me. Bahūnāṁ janmanaṁ ante: after many, many births. How he surrenders? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: (BG 7.19) oh! Kṛṣṇa is everything. The Vedānta-sūtra gives hint, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), what is Brahmā, what is supreme? Athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about Brahmān, the Supreme. The answer is Brahman is that or He who is the original source of everything. We have to find out who is the original source, so that requires wisdom.
Prabhupāda: So when one is perfectly wise after many, many births, cultured, he sees, "Ah, here is the original, Kṛṣṇa," vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19), that mahātmā, great soul, is very rare to be seen, who has surrendered. So our... We are giving the shortcut process: what one has to attain after many, many births, we are simply saying is surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all. This is the greatest boon or, what is called, greatest reward or contribution to the human society. And if actually one is wise, then he'll take our word that if one has to come to this point after many, many births, that Kṛṣṇa is everything, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), to understand, why not accept it immediately?
Allen Ginsberg: Do you take rebirth in human form literally?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: As a...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is my program. Because Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not possible for everyone. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā we learn, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). After many, many births one can come to this. So it is not possible that a mass of people, a large quantity of people will be able to grasp it. You see? Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Another place it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). After many thousands of men, one may be interested how to liberate himself. And out of many such liberated persons, one may understand what is Kṛṣṇa. So understanding of Kṛṣṇa is not very easy thing. But Lord Caitanya is so munificent that He has given us a, I mean to say, easy process. (indistinct) Otherwise Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not easy. Because Kṛṣṇa is the last word of Absolute Truth. Generally, people are just like animals.
Prabhupāda: You suggest that "Here is another solution. Why we should take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" No. There is no other. You have got any suggestion, any other method? No. Then why don't you take to it and preach? What is the difficulty? You don't like? (break) ...especially Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. That is the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā-matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam na janma-koṭi sukṛtair labhyate. Very nice verse. He instructs that "If you can purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness from any market, any store, please immediately buy it." Then next question is "Then what is the price? What shall I have to pay for it?" And Rūpa Gosvāmī says, "Oh, the price is simply eagerness." Tatra laulyam... "Yes, I must have Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is the price. Laulyam, that eagerness is not achieved even after many, many births. That is the price. Therefore it requires a little intelligence. "Oh, such a valuable thing? I can purchase only by eagerness? Why not become eager immediately?" That is intelligence.
Prabhupāda: The same example can be... If you are in the sunshine, then you do not know what is sun globe and the predominating deity in the sun. But if you are by the side of the sun deity, you know what is sun globe and what is sunshine. Therefore impartially it is recommended that one should know the science of the Absolute Truth, or Kṛṣṇa. That will include all other knowledge. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). This is also a verse from Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, "After many, many births' cultivation of knowledge, when one is actually wise, jñānavān..." Jñānavān means has attained wisdom. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "He surrenders unto Me." Why? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: (BG 7.19) "He understands, 'Oh, Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa is everything.' " Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: "Such great soul is very rare."
Prabhupāda: They're so much in ignorance that they: "All right, let it happen, whatever may happen. We may enjoy life." But this is not very good position. One should be, at least in human form of life, one should be very sober, considerate (of) what is happening. So out of many fruitive workers like this, one becomes wise: "Why I am doing this?" This is wisdom. That is the platform of knowledge, to inquire that "What is my position? What I am? What is my aim of life?" That is the position of the jṇānī, persons who are wise. And one, when one is fully wise, then bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19), after many, many births, when one becomes fully wise, bahunam janmanam ante jñānavān, when he's actually wise, jñānavān, then māṁ prapadyate, Kṛṣṇa says, "He comes and surrenders unto Me." Why? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), he understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. But such person, such great soul, is very rare. Generally people are mūḍhas. So from mūḍhas we have to be elevated to the position of mahātmā.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is vijñāna. So jñāna knowledge, first knowledge, is what is God, what is God and what is my relation with Him. This is knowledge. Then you... When you act according to that knowledge, that is vijñāna. That is bhakti. When you understand fully well that "God is great, and I am a small minute part and parcels of God," and then you understand that the part and parcel's duty is to serve the whole... Is it not? Just like the finger is part and parcel of my body. Its duty is to serve the whole body. Similarly, if we accept, if we understand, that "I am part and parcel of God; then my duty is to serve God." But people are being misled that he is thinking God himself. Although he is under so many restrictions and stricture of the material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāṇi guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). He is so foolish and rascal that he is thinking, "I am independent." Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā karta aham iti manyate. He is strictly under the stringent laws of material nature, but still, he is thinking falsely that "I am supreme. I am independent." So therefore surrender required, that "I am not supreme." That is knowledge. That is knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births of this speculation, when actually he becomes jñānavān, wise, then he surrenders." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19).
Prabhupāda: Now, who is not drinking water? The taste of water is Kṛṣṇa, so who has not seen Kṛṣṇa? They say, "Can you show me God?" If you don't see God, then who will show you? Here is God. You are drinking water. Here is God, sunshine. Those who cannot see Kṛṣṇa is God... Because to see Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality God, it requires many, many thousands of years tapasya to understand Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). After many, many births, one can understand Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not so easy. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Out of many thousands of men, one may be interested how to make this life perfect. And those who actually attain perfection, out of many thousands of them, one can understand Kṛṣṇa. So to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy job, easy job.
Prabhupāda: But there is the summum bonum of that realization. That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante, jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births of this mental evolutionary process, when actually he becomes wise he becomes God conscious and surrenders to God. That is real evolution(?). That evolution will go on. But when it comes to the summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). God is cause of all causes. That is final realization. Unless one comes to that point he has not come to the perfection of evolutionary process of the mind and intelligence.
Śyāmasundara: How does our philosophy define mind and intelligence?
Prabhupāda: But just like the brain says that "Here is an enemy," so hand immediately strikes. Brain gives direction that "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is kṣatriya. And the belly supplies food, vaiśya. And the legs, śūdra, carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain. Therefore, first of all duty is there must be an intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class. So intelligent class means one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is intelligent, actual. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Is it not? So jñānavān means the first-class intelligent class. So after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, what is the symptom? Māṁ prapadyate, he immediately surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19).
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Well, this seriousness comes after many, many births. It is also not so easy. Rūpa Gosvāmī says, tatra laulyam api mūlyam ekalaṁ janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. He wrote a verse, kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate: "The kṛṣṇa-bhakti, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this thing, if you can purchase somewhere, just immediately purchase it." Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatām: "Just purchase." Yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. First of all, if you want to purchase, the things must be available. Yadi kuto. Therefore kuto 'pi, "If it is available, immediately purchase." Then next question is, "What is the value? What is the price I have to pay?" Then he said, tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam, "Simply your serious eagerness to have it. That is the price." "Oh, that I can have very easily." "No." Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate: "That laulyam, that seriousness, is not obtained after thousands of years' pious activities." It is so difficult.
Prabhupāda: Well, this seriousness comes after many, many births. It is also not so easy. Rūpa Gosvāmī says, tatra laulyam api mūlyam ekalaṁ janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. He wrote a verse, kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate: "The kṛṣṇa-bhakti, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this thing, if you can purchase somewhere, just immediately purchase it." Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatām: "Just purchase." Yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. First of all, if you want to purchase, the things must be available. Yadi kuto. Therefore kuto 'pi, "If it is available, immediately purchase." Then next question is, "What is the value? What is the price I have to pay?" Then he said, tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam, "Simply your serious eagerness to have it. That is the price." "Oh, that I can have very easily." "No." Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate: "That laulyam, that seriousness, is not obtained after thousands of years' pious activities." It is so difficult. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. People are acting piously, but that kind of seriousness is not available even after executing pious activities for thousands of lives. So that seriousness is also very difficult, to become very serious that "In this life I shall finish my business and go home, back to home, back to Godhead." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Kṛṣṇa says, "After many, many births, when actually one becomes in knowledge, he surrenders unto Me."
Prabhupāda: So either you be controlled directly by God or you be controlled by his agency. Being controlled by māyā, you spoil your life. That means you remain in the material existence, one after another. You simply change your body. But if you give yourself to be controlled by God, then after this body you go back to home, back to Godhead. Then your life is successful. You cannot be without being controlled. That is not possible. Therefore one who is intelligent, he puts himself under the control of God directly. That is intelligence. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "After many births of struggling, or speculation, one surrenders unto Me." Vāsudevaḥ sarva..., "Kṛṣṇa, You are everything. So I am.... Accept me. I am now fully surrendered unto You, and You control me." Because I am controlled. So, so long I am being controlled by these rascals, so there is no benefit. I'm controlled. I have been controlled by my senses.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...fruits... Just accept Kṛṣṇa, the most learned man. Follow His teaching. Your life is perfect. And practically you see. They have accepted Kṛṣṇa the supreme teacher, and how their life is becoming perfect. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. Unless one is very, very intelligent he cannot come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. As Kṛṣṇa is very cunning, intelligent, so His devotee is also very cunning and intelligent. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. Kṛṣṇa also says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births' struggling, when he actually becomes wise, jñānavān," māṁ prapadyate, "he surrenders to Me." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: (BG 7.19) "That mahātmā is very rare to be found." Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritaḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam (BG 9.13). This is mahātmā. This is description of mahātmā.
Prabhupāda: These are the Vedic statements. And Kṛṣṇa also said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore to become wise after many, many births of struggling or cultivating knowledge, when one comes to perfection of knowledge he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. So therefore one who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, he is the most perfect man, even without knowing Kṛṣṇa. Just like gopīs. They did not know Kṛṣṇa, whether He is God or some... Simply loved Kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa is very beautiful." That's all. So their perfection is the highest. They did not try to understand what Kṛṣṇa, what is Vedānta, what is Bhagavad-gītā. At that time Bhagavad-gītā was not spoken even. Kṛṣṇa was at that time a boy. But they loved Kṛṣṇa with their heart and soul. Kṛṣṇa was their everything. And therefore their position is the topmost.
Prabhupāda: That means they do not follow any practical. That is their rascaldom. Nothing practical means they do not know what is the practical realization of God. That is their ignorance. And still they are claiming to be teachers. That is cheating. Just like these so-called scientists, they are theorizing, but they cannot practically prove. Therefore, their knowledge is imperfect. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Jñānavān, the wise, after many, many births' cultivation of knowledge, when he surrenders, that is practical. Simply knowledge is useless, theoretical. When he practically surrenders, that is end of knowledge. That is perfection.
Jayatīrtha: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is stated. You don't read Bhagavad-gītā? You don't read?
Rāmeśvara: In class we have, every evening.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Therefore in another place, it is stated, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19), "After many, many births, when actually becomes wise, jñānavān māṁ prapadyate, he surrenders unto Me." That is the perfection of knowledge. So this is... The Bhagavad-gītā is the only source of scientific knowledge of God and our relationship with God. I am very glad that you are already very serious about understanding Bhagavad-gītā. But I request you only that try to... and understand Bhagavad-gītā without any, our man-made interpretation. That will be my request.
Guest (2): What is one thing that I would like to...
Prabhupāda: And we are always ready to help you in this.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science is nearing that stage. Science...
Prabhupāda: Because they're going to accept that they're all rascals? That will be the real progress. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births of rascaldom, when he comes to Kṛṣṇa and surrenders. Yes. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). He is everything. That is real knowledge. (pause)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: A group of scientists are now working on the idea that before we start anything, one should think...
Prabhupāda: No, there is the latest theory. What is this, theory of ignorance? Or what is that? Theory of impossibility, or something like that?
Karandhara: Oh, theory of uncertainty?
Prabhupāda: But how it is possible to become silent?
Yogeśvara: ...many, many births and deaths.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. That's all right. Now talk (break)
Yogeśvara: ...privilege for him to be here amongst us.
Prabhupāda: Thank him.
Guru-gaurāṅga: Thank you very much and he is going to tell the grandmaster about you.
Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in San Jose, California, their grand emperor of the movement has his, their headquarters. And he said one day perhaps there would be the opportunity...
Pradyumna:
- śrī bhagavān uvāca
- bahūni me vyatītāni
- janmāni tava cārjuna
- tāny ahaṁ veda sarvāṇi
- na tvaṁ vettha parantapa
"The Blessed Lord said, 'Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!' "
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Pradyumna: "In the Brahma-saṁhitā we have information of many, many incarnations of the Lord. It is stated there:
- advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam
- ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca
- vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma-bhaktau
- govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
- (Bs. 5.33)
'I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead Govinda, or Kṛṣṇa, who is the original person, absolute, infallible, without beginning...' "
Prabhupāda: Infallible. Infallible. This word is used. Acyuta. Hm.
Pradyumna: "...without beginning, although expanded into unlimited forms, still, the same original, the oldest and the person always appearing as a fresh youth... (Pradyumna goes on reading the purport until:) ...in the following verse." Then the next verse.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prabhupāda: The jñānīs and yogis, they have to search for the Absolute Truth for many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān. Those who are searching out the Absolute Truth, they are also jñānavān. Or after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, jñānavān. Everyone is searching after the Absolute or the highest perfection of life. "In this way, searching, when one comes to the real platform of becoming wise, then he surrenders unto Me." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Why? Now, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Such wise man, jñānavān, he knows that "Kṛṣṇa is everything." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. "That mahātmā is very rare." So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is making that sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ, not ordinary mahātmā.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is understandable simply by bhakti, not by other methods. Not by karma, not by jñāna, not by yoga. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). The jñānīs, karmīs, yogis, they are trying to come to the Absolute Truth, but they will take many, many births to come to this point to surrender. Therefore intelligence means if one understands that "Ultimately I have to come to Kṛṣṇa for my highest perfection; then why not immediately? Kṛṣṇa is canvassing, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Why not take this process?" This is intelligence. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births when one actually becomes wise, jñānavān, he surrenders, he surrenders." If one remains still unwise, not fully in knowledge, he hesitates, "Oh, why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is as like me; He is also a man. Maybe a powerful man, a very learned man."
Prabhupāda: "If you simply accept Kṛṣṇa as your guidance, there is no more māyā." But they'll not accept. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Therefore one who accepts and surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa after many, many births of such struggle for existence, he is actually wise. He's actually wise.
Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, why has it taken so long for a pure devotee to come to the West? Has the West been so sinful that no pure devotee has come before Your Divine Grace?
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Don't be sorry. At that time you were so sinful that you could not receive a pure devotee.
Karandhara: Yes. Once in a lecture a lady asked you why hadn't you come sooner, and you just said, "Well, you weren't ready for me."
Prabhupāda: Yes, "Because you were not ready." (laughs) Yes, I told, yes. Now the Western boys, the descendants of the Western people, they are fortunate; therefore they receive Kṛṣṇa. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. It is Kṛṣṇa's desire that "These people are suffering so much; let some devotees come here." So you are all devotees. You have come to join together.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, actually that is the fact. But that is done, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Those who are rascals, they do it—they will have to do it—but after many, many births, not immediately. They'll suffer. They'll have to go through so many species of life, and one day they'll come to the understanding, "Yes, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: 'Everything is Kṛṣṇa.' " Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: "That mahātmā is very rare, very rare."
Yaśomatīnandana: When the Indians come to the temple, Prabhupāda, I tell them that mahātmā is not manufactured or rubber stamped. Here Kṛṣṇa says what mahātmā means. I say that anybody who takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is mahātmā.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prajāpati: Actually they are so demoniac, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are advocating so many birth control, and so many things, and they say this...
Prabhupāda: Simply rascaldom. Simply. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram (SB 7.5.30). They are going to the darkest region. Because they are killing, they will have to suffer. That they do not know. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The blind man going forward will fall into the ditch. So this is their rascaldom.
Bali Mardan: Can a person who eats meat obtain a human birth? Or he must be put back into animal species, meat-eaters?
Prabhupāda: No, he'll become animal, and he'll be killed.
Bali Mardana: So that means practically all the population.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That animal will become man, and he'll kill him. He'll become animal. This is karma-bandhana. Yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Yajñārthe, in the yajña, sometimes there is recommendation of animal sacrifice. Except that, you are bound up. You will have to be killed.
Prabhupāda: "After many, many births, one who is wise, he will accept Kṛṣṇa and surrender."
- bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
- jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
- vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
- sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ
- (BG 7.19)
He is mahātmā, great soul, who is accepting like that, that Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything."
Prajāpati: You are the supermost mahātmā, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prajāpati: Thank you so much.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jaya Prabhupāda. All glories to Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)
Guest (2): I think it takes many births to have the effect.
Prabhupāda: No, you can have immediately, provided you follow the rules and regulations. That's all. Not many births, immediately. Tat-kṣaṇāt. Śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt. In the Bhāgavata it is said. Īśvaraḥ sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt. The tat-kṣaṇāt means immediately. But one must very eager. That's all. That is the only qualification. Otherwise, Śukadeva Gosvāmī would not... Vyāsadeva would not have used this word, tat-kṣaṇāt, immediately. I think that hill is Hollywood?
Jayatīrtha: Beverly Hills, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That is Beverly Hills.
Karandhara: No, that is Hollywood Hills.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: This is... One who has captured Kṛṣṇa, he has got siddhi. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramām. The highest perfection he has attained. That is wanted. Harāv abhaktasya kuto... If... One may be reluctant to sex life for a few days. Then again he'll do that. Because he has no shelter. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa param... Even they go to the Brahmaloka, they come down. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa param. Kṛcchra, very severe austerities. They rise up to the Brāhmaṇaḥ padavī (?), and again fall down. Because they have no shelter. So all these siddhis are simply temporary. It has no meaning. It has no value. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). So these siddhas will take many, many births to come to the point of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. You see? Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante.
Guest (1): In between they start showing so many things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And in the meantime they may fall down and go to hell.
Guest (1): Yes, that is how it is.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mr. Sar: Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). (laughter)
Prabhupāda: And the so-called jñānavān, they'll take many, many, many births.
Mr. Sar: So-called, so-called, yes, so-called.
Prabhupāda: So-called. Because actually when he becomes wise, he prapadyante, he surrenders. That is the sy...
Mr. Sar: If he has become jñānī with bhakti...
Prabhupāda: Then you'll find, you'll find that he has surrendered. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam... He has no... "No, Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything."
Girirāja: (reads) "...we are given the histories of Kṛṣṇa's appearances and disappearances millions and billions of years ago. In the Fourth Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna that both he and Arjuna had many births before, and that He, Kṛṣṇa, could remember all of them and that Arjuna could not. This illustrates the difference between the knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and that of Arjuna. Arjuna might have been a very great warrior, a well-cultured member of the Kuru dynasty..." (break)
Acyutānanda: In the last part of Kṛṣṇa Book, Mahā-Viṣṇu says that Arjuna is of the capacity of Nara-nārāyaṇa. So they are avatāras also.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: When did he know that He, Kṛṣṇa was really the son of Devakī? I think after the... just now only.
Prabhupāda: Just now only. He is disclosing. He has given... (break) ...bahūni me janmāny atītāni tava cārjuna. Same thing. "I had many, many births before." That is confirmed here.
Girirāja: "Just as demigods are always protected by Lord Viṣṇu, so the devotees of your child will always be protected by Nārāyaṇa." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...accept that process. (break) ...cation. (break) Without any advertisement, without any..., how one can stop this?
Indian Man (2): It is not possible. (break)
Prabhupāda: That knowledge is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one understands, "Oh, here is the original source of everything," vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19), that is greatest scientist. And how this knowledge comes? Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). They are struggling for the ultimate knowledge. So struggling many, many births after births, when, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, he comes to the real knowledge, then he admits, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19).
Indian Man (3): (Hindi conversation) (break)
Prabhupāda: ...and police is controlling by beating them. Now they will go to the office, and again they will come in that way. And coming home for two cāpāṭis. You see? That's all.
Prabhupāda: So śāstra says, labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte: "My dear human being, please note. You have got this form of life after many many births, bahu-sambhavānte. You had to undergo the aquatic life, 900,000 species, the birds, trees and plants, two million. How much time it has gone by for this evolution. Now you have come to the human form of life." Labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte mānuṣyam: "This is human form of life." Artha-dam: "Now you can achieve success. Although it is temporary, but you can achieve the highest perfection of life. Therefore," tūrṇaṁ yateta anumṛtyu yāvat, "before next death, you be very dexterous to complete the success." And if you think, then what about my sense enjoyment? Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt: "It will be available any life. This life you spend for this purpose.
Prabhupāda: That's it. But there is higher mathematics. Not one plus two or two plus three, no. There is still higher mathematics. So that is not meant for them. That will be explained, explained in the Bhagavad..., ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Those who are expert, or sufficient, insufficient knowledge, they cannot understand the Supreme Absolute. That is also confirmed, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he can understand Kṛṣṇa and surrenders unto Him." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So Vedas and scriptures are there, differently, according to different conditions. Now, what Jesus Christ was teaching the people? You can understand. The first injunction is "Thou shalt not kill." So what class of men they were, just you can understand.
Prabhupāda: That's it. He is the source of everything. So-called material, so-called spiritual—everything coming from Him. Therefore everything transformed... Or not transformed. Everything is transforming. That's all right. Therefore everything belongs to Him. So everything should be employed for His satisfaction. That is perfection. Iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births, when one becomes actually scientist, he understands, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is the source of everything." Find out.
Prabhupāda: Bhakti, yes. Prapatti means bhakti. Just like I can surrender unto you when I have got full faith and devotion unto you. Otherwise, I cannot. That is wanted. If we simply surrender to God, then everything is complete. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā, the prapati is described, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19), this word: "After many, many births of philosophical speculation or personal endeavor to understand what is God, when he's actually wise, he surrenders unto Me." And it is said next line, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: (BG 7.19) "Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything." When he understands this, then his knowledge is perfect. But such kind of mahātmā, great soul, is very rare to be seen."
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So if anyone does not know anything, if he simply comes and offers obeisances, that is also nice. Therefore Deity worship is important for the common man. Even if he does not know anything, if he simply comes and offer obeisances, if he little dances with kīrtana, everything will be taken into credit. Then one day he will become a devotee. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). The jñānavān, the so-called jñānavān they do not care for the Deity-puffed up. But Kṛṣṇa says this class of jñānavān, after many, many births, when he'll be actually jñānavān, he will offer obeisance. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). It is so difficult and easy. A jñānavān, after many, many births, come to this conclusion, "Here is vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). I offer my obeisances." And the same obeisances can be offered by a child without being jñānavān, but the result is the same.
Prabhupāda: You cannot question by challenging. You have to render service and surrender. Between the two, praṇipāta and sevayā, there is paripraśna. Then you will understand. Upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninaḥ tattva-darśinaḥ. Tattva-darśi, one who has seen the truth, he can enlighten you. This is the process. Otherwise, even Gandhi, Dr. Rādhākrishnan, Vivekānanda, all they have committed mistake. Aurobindo. Aurobindo has understood little to some extent, but not fully. But if we are fortunate enough, then we can understand Kṛṣṇa very easily. What is that? Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). "My dear Dhanañjaya, Arjuna, there is no more superior truth than Me." So if we accept that, either you say blindly or conscientiously, then that is perfection. Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births of philosophical speculation, when one actually becomes wise, jñānī, jñānavān, full of knowledge, then the result is māṁ prapadyate: he surrenders unto Me." Why surrender?
Prabhupāda: Sarvam etaṁ ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava: "My dear Keśava..." Keśava, the another name of Kṛṣṇa... "Whatever You have said I accept them cent percent." Sarvam etaṁ ṛtam. Ṛtam means fact, truth. This is understanding. So if we accept in that way, then our knowledge is perfect. And if we accept in a different way... Just like Gandhi says that "I do not believe that Kṛṣṇa ever lived." Just see. He does not believe in the ācāryas. All the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they have written big, big comment on Bhagavad-gītā, even Śaṅkarācārya. He does not believe anyone. He believes himself. And that kind of belief is not help. And our process is: because Kṛṣṇa has been accepted by all the ācāryas, all the great sages, Arjuna has accepted—we accept, that's all. We have no difficulty. If I am child, I ask my father, "What is this, my father?" The father says, "My dear child, it is called coconut." Then, if I distribute this knowledge, "This is coconut," then my knowledge is perfect. I may not be perfect, but because I have heard it from my father, who is perfect about the knowledge of this fruit, so I have taken that word from my father, and I am preaching, "This is coconut," and this is perfect. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is like that. We are simply repeating the perfect statement of our predecessor. That's all. So there is no difficulty. We haven't got to write thesis on Kṛṣṇa. The perfect knowledge is already there. And supported by the ācāryas. And we are simply submitting that "This is Kṛṣṇa. This is God." That's all. All over the world we are placing this statement that "Here is Bhagavad-gītā, and Kṛṣṇa spoke. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is like this. He is the original source of everything." Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: (BG 10.8) "I am the origin of everything." And Kṛṣṇa also says, "After many, many births one come to this understanding that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: (BG 7.19) 'Vasudeva is everything.'
Prabhupāda: That you have to take advice from the Supreme. The Supreme says, "If you want to know Me..." Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). You have to take the way of the Supreme. "Simply by devotional service one can understand Me, what I am actually, is." You have to take this way. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are teaching everyone this bhakti-yogam so that one can understand the Supreme and submit to Him, yes. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one understands by acquiring knowledge after many, many births, then he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). This is the first-class mahātmā. That we are teaching. It is not a sentiment. Most scientific.
Guest: Is it possible for poverty-stricken people, those who have to earn bread and money by the sweat of their brow?
Prabhupāda: They are trying. That is admitted. But, they are concluding that there is no operator. That is their foolishness, because they have failed to find out. They have to go further, further, and see, "Yes, there is operator." That is the final part of the... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān mām (BG 7.19). So after many, many births of sincere inquiry, when he is actually intelligent, he will see, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Here is Vasudeva. He is everything." That is stated. He'll enquire. Go on enquiring, life after life. And then he'll come to understand vāsudevaḥ-sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. You did not read this verse? They will come, after much trouble, much enquiry, they will come to the same conclusion, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). But they'll waste time. That's all. When we say, "Here is operator," they will not take. But they'll waste time, and life after life laboring, one day they will come.
Gaṇeśa: So one day the material scientist after many, many births will come to understand Vasudeva or Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gaṇeśa: They will become devotees.
Prabhupāda: But that is their foolishness. We, people, Kṛṣṇa conscious people say, "Here is your ultimate goal of this science. Take it." That they will not take. That is foolishness. They will come to the same point. But when you offer him, he will not take. That is less intelligent. (break)
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. But you have gone there. You have endeavored your sincere effort. That is recognized by Kṛṣṇa. That is the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa: (CC Madhya 7.128) "Whomever you meet, you give him, you inform him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa." Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said that "You see that he has actually become Kṛṣṇa conscious." Never says. You simply say and go and say. That is your business. It is not that you have to see that he has become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not so easy to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not so easy. It will take, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19), after many, many births. But you have to do your duty. Go and preach. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Your duty is finished. Of course, you will try to convert him. If he is not converted, that is not deviation of your duty. You have to simply go and speak. Just like when I came to your country, I never expected any success because I knew, "As soon as I will say, 'No illicit sex, no meat-eating,' they will reject me immediately."
Prabhupāda: No. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). That stage is attained after many many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. When one is actually wise, he can see, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, everything is Kṛṣṇa. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is very rare." Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛ... (BG 9.13). At that time he is under the control of spiritual energy. And what is the sign? Bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ. He has no other business than to render service to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. What is that?
Śrutakīrti: It says this tree is dangerous in a high wind.
Devotee: It will break.
Prabhupāda: Research. So by searching, searching, searching, if you do not come to Kṛṣṇa, then your searching is incomplete. That is the defect. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa understanding, then it is perfect. Then your research work is complete. That is... Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). Research work means... Actually, that is science, to find out the original source. Just like they are claiming, "The original source of life is chemical." That is not knowledge, imperfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge is as Kṛṣṇa says. What is that? Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). "I am the origin of everything." So when they come to Kṛṣṇa, then he finds out the original source. So that is possible by this research worker after many, many births, not many, many years, but many, many births. And bahūnāṁ janmanām ante: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births," bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān, "one who is actually advanced in knowledge, he surrenders unto Me." Why? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), that "Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of everything."
Prabhupāda: Our endeavor is just to become a dog of a Vaiṣṇava, not to become an animal like lion. We remain a dog, but of a Vaiṣṇava. And we refuse to become a big animal like lion. This is our philosophy. Another song is Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's, janmaobi jadi icchā to hara, kīṭa-janma hau jaha das bhakta tuṅhara: "I do not know what is my next life. That depends on Your consideration. But if you think that I must take another birth or another many births, it doesn't matter. Only I request You that You make me an insignificant ant in the house of a devotee." Kīṭa-janma hau jaha das tuṅhara. This is Vaiṣṇava aspiration, that If become an ant under the protection of a Vaiṣṇava, that is also successful. And I don't want to become a Brahmā who is not a devotee."
Prabhupāda: We have no eyes to see. We see through Kṛṣṇa. As Kṛṣṇa sees, we see. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. We are not perfect. Our position is that we are not perfect. But we are perfect so long we follow Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Just like I am blind man. I am not perfect. But if you have got eyes, if you take me I follow you. Then I am perfect. Kṛṣṇa assures that "You surrender to Me and I will make you free from all dangers," and we accept Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Our method is very easy. The child is walking, unable to walk, falling down. The parents say, father says, "My dear child, just catch my hand." Then he's safe. These Māyāvādīs, they go against the verdict of God. God says that "The living entities are My part and parcel," and they say, "I am God." So that is their foolishness. Part and parcel... Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivaṁso jīva-bhutaḥ (BG 15.7). Otherwise why God says, "Surrender unto Me," if you are equal with Him? Why God is asking, "Surrender unto Me"? You are not equal. You are rascal. You are claiming that "I am equal." Otherwise there is no question of surrender. "You surrender unto Me." And this knowledge of surrender comes, Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām: "This rascal is always thinking 'I am God, God, God.' This rascaldom is finished after many, many births, this ignorance." Then he surrenders. How the living entity is equal with God?
Prabhupāda: Clouded, yes. Aviśuddha. Therefore confirms this. Because the aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ, it takes many, many lives to purify it. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). When they come to the purified stage, then they surrender vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabha. They... (break) ...to be aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ unless they come to the point of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. And we are unintelligent persons. We do it immediately. Let us do it immediately. Why we shall wait for many, many births?
Dr. Patel: It is not that, sir. I think complete surrendering of our ego at the sacred feet of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, and they cannot.
Dr. Patel: That is bhakti.
Prabhupāda: This is basic principle of their happiness. That's all. Mohinī, mohinī. This is captivation. And nature has made the woman's face so attractive, beautiful, their breast, their hips, attractive, their sound, talking, singing, all very attractive, walking, and now they are dressing naked. They are showing simply the vagina, all other parts of the body clothed. This is going on. Whole thing is based on sex life, and that is tuccham, most abominable. Prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. It will take three hundred times births to understand that this sex life is abominable. Therefore it is bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Not that immediately, simply by hearing our Bhagavad-gita lecture, they will give it up. It will take many, many births to understand. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. In the Vedic system, sex life is allowed only for begetting children.
Prabhupāda: Quality, you'll understand first of all come to the quality. Without having quality, how he'll understand the quality? You follow the instruction of your spiritual master, of the śāstra. That is your duty. Quality, no quality—it is not your position to understand. When the quality comes there is no force. You will have a taste for chanting. You will desire at that time, "Why sixteen round? Why not sixteen thousand rounds?" That is quality. That is quality. It is by force. You'll not do it; therefore at least sixteen rounds. But when you come to the quality, you will feel yourself, "Why sixteen? Why not sixteen thousand?" That is quality, automatically. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura was doing. He was not forced to do. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He requested, "Now you are old enough. You can reduce." So he refused, "No. Up to the end of my life I shall go on." That is quality. Have you got such tendency that you will go on chanting and nothing to do? That is quality. Now you are forced to do. Where is the question of quality? That is given a chance so that one day you may come to the quality, not that you have come to the quality. Quality is different. Athāśaktiḥ. Aśakti, attachment. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī says that "How shall I chant with one tongue, and how shall I hear, two ears? Had it been millions of tongue and trillions of ear, then I could enjoy it." This is quality. Quality is not so cheap. Maybe after many births.
Prabhupāda: Hm, we have come to this stage, we are reading Bhagavad-gītā. You do it, now. Why you are delaying? If after many, many births I have come to this conclusion, surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why don't you do it now? That is intelligence. (Hindi about rupees) How rascal he is! (Hindi joke) (laughter) Kṛṣṇa says, "You give up all your duties and just come to Me. Immediately." (Hindi) These boys, they did it! That's all.
Dr. Patel: We are grateful, sir.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Yes... (Hindi) No, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the nicest movement. Only intelligent man can take it. It is a fact. It is a fact.
Dr. Patel: Maybe (Hindi).
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is understood that I am person, my father is person, his father is person, and the supreme father is not a person. Just see. If the supreme father is not a person, then wherefrom these personal fathers came here? Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. "Mām"—this is person. The mūḍhas cannot understand that the supreme father is a person. Therefore Arjuna, at the, when he understood Bhagavad-gītā, he declared that "It is very, very difficult..." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. "...to understand Your personality. It is very, very difficult." Arjuna has said. And he has accepted Him as person, puruṣaṁ śāśvatam: "You are eternally person." Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramam, puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam ādyam (BG 10.12). These things are there. The real understanding is there. And he said, "This is.... This is accepted by Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Devala." Svayaṁ caiva: "And You are also speaking." Then where is the question of imperson? Hare Kṛṣṇa. And therefore He, Kṛṣṇa, says bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānvān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). "You are person; I surrender unto You"—this knowledge comes after many, many births of this impersonalist.
Prabhupāda: What is these jñānīs? They are also another rascal, another edition of rascals. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Therefore so-called jñānīs, after many, many births' practical realization, they surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā (BG 7.19). Then he understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything. But such great person is very, very rare. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ, very, very rare.
Dayānanda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktābhāsa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktābhāsa. Ābhāsa. Ābhāsa means a simple, a little light.
Prabhupāda: But both of them are coming from me. So this sensation, this consciousness, is perfect when it comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is developing, in every living entity is developing. The consciousness, the sensation, is there in the tree also, but he is not developed. When the same consciousness comes to the complete perfection, then he understands, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). That is perfection. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: "The real source is Vasudeva." Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Then he glorifies Vasudeva. But to know Vasudeva, you make research. That is one way, going on. But if you accept... Vasudeva says, "I am everything." Then accept immediately. The whole solution is there. Two, two ways: āroha-panthā, avaroha-panthā. You are trying to search out. Go on. It will take many, many births. But if you accept... The same Vasudeva is coming kindly ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). You accept it, then the knowledge is perfect.
Prabhupāda: Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). "So we have spoken so many other things for other rascals. But you are My friend, very intimate. I tell you, this is real fact." So fact is fact. If you take earlier or later, that is different thing. You have to come. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). One has to take many births before coming to this understanding. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. So everyone is not mahātmā even, what to speak of sudurlabhaḥ. (laughs) (end)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their main point is that they want to manipulate expertly the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: That means let them waste their time. Therefore it requires many births to understand this law. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're going away from this kind of understanding. They had a heritage of philosophical understanding, correct philosophical.... They were very.... For instance, their whole system during the time of Confucius.... Up until two or three hundred years ago their system was they had a monarchy, a king, an emperor, and the emperor was believed to be the representative of God.
Prabhupāda: That is good.
Prabhupāda: Yes. A criminal is freed, but if he again commits criminal..., criminality, then again he's put into the jail, like that. (inaudible) ...his freedom, now make your choice. But if you misuse it, then again go.... māyāprāpte nivartante mṛtyuḥ saṁsāra vartmani. (break) ...go home back to Godhead. But if we do not take the chance, and misuse it, like animals, then again we go down. The process is to go back to home, back to Godhead, eternal life, blissful life. And other process is the cycle of birth and death in different species of life. So this human form of body is to make choice whether to continue the cycle of birth and death in different species of life, or you want to go home, back to Godhead. (Sanskrit) He's Kṛṣṇa conscious when he goes back to home, back to Godhead. (inaudible) species of life, according to karma, they're going to be fish. From fish, by nature's way, leads to the plants, then insect. In this way.... Then birds, then beasts, again human being. Again another birth. In this way they are.... bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Similarly, after many, many births, when he comes to his senses.... "I have enjoyed very nice life. Now let me go back home..."
Prabhupāda: Thank you. So here in the material world happiness means sense gratification, that's all. So Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "The happiness of sense gratification, obtainable in any form of life..." The birds, beasts, human beings or even the demigods, cats, dogs—everyone has got the happiness of sense gratification, namely eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That is obtainable everywhere. But the spiritual happiness, that is obtainable in human form of life. Therefore the human being from childhood... Kaumāra ācaret prajño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). From the very beginning of childhood. Why so early? Durlābhaṁ manusam janma. This human form of life is obtained after many, many births' evolutionary process. And adhruvam.
Prabhupāda: No, chances are very little, and chance is immediate. Ordinarily, the chance is very little, but if you accept what God says, immediately... Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated,
- bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
- jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
- vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
- sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ
- (BG 7.19)
So by regular process, it will take many, many births, bahūnāṁ janmanām. When he is actually jñānavān, then he surrenders to God, and he understands vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: (BG 7.19) "Everything is Vasudeva." Sa mahātmā sudur... So if we are intelligent, we can take this verse seriously, that "Although it is very difficult to understand Vasudeva"—it takes many, many births to understand this fact—"but if one has to come to this point, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), why not do it immediately?" That is intelligence. So if we surrender to God immediately, the thing is very easy; it is a task of one minute only. But if you don't do that, then it is difficult. Go on, birth after birth, birth after birth.
Prabhupāda: Jñāna, what is jñāna? Jñāna means... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). So unless one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, there is no jñāna. This is all nonsense. And they're passing as jñāna. There is no knowledge at all. Vedānta means the ultimate knowledge. So ultimate knowledge, the subject matter of ultimate knowledge is Kṛṣṇa, God. So if one does not know who is God, who is Kṛṣṇa, then where is knowledge? This is fact, the knowledge, but if a rascal claims that "I am man of knowledge," then what can be done? Knowledge is explained, that when one understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything.... Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one understands that Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything, then that is knowledge. Before that, there is no knowledge. It is simply misunderstanding. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). One may begin with impersonal Brahman by the speculative method or one can realize the, what is called, Paramātmā, localized aspect. That is the secondary stage. The final stage is understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). That is the final knowledge. But if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, then where is your knowledge? Knowledge, half-way knowledge is not knowledge. Complete knowledge. That complete knowledge is possible, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Those who are striving to acquire knowledge, such persons, after many, many births, when actually by the grace of God and by the grace of a devotee comes to the knowledge, then he agrees, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), everything is Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: These boys are playing with Kṛṣṇa. Who is Kṛṣṇa? He is the essence of Brahma-sukha, Param Brahman. So these boys are playing with Param Brahman. Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena. And for the devotees He's the supreme master, and for the ordinary man He is ordinary child. But these other children who are playing, they have got this position kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. "After many, many births' pious activities, now I have got this position, playing with Kṛṣṇa on equal terms." So this is the conception of devotional service, that when you go to the Goloka Vṛndāvana you cannot distinguish.... But they have got unflinching love for Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana life. The cows, the calves, the trees, the flowers, the water, the elderly men, Nanda Mahārāja and Yaśodāmayī, everyone is attached, central point is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: It is conclusion, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. So you are mahātmā, sudurlabhaḥ, not ordinary rascal mathematician. (laughter) But you are real mathematician, that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Read the purport.
Hari-śauri: "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." Purport. "The living entity, while executing devotional service or transcendental rituals after many, many births may actually become situated in transcendental pure knowledge that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate goal of spiritual realization. In the beginning of spiritual realization, while one is trying to give up one's attachment to materialism, there is some leaning towards impersonalism. But when one is further advanced he can understand that there are activities in the spiritual life and that these activities constitute devotional service.
Prabhupāda: ...cure the diseased condition of our existence, and then it will be cured. For that purpose, we have to execute austerity, penance, tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena ca (SB 6.1.13). These practices are there. But there is one practice that is called bhakti. Kevalayā bhaktyā vāsudeva-parayanaḥ. One.... Vāsudeva-parayanaḥ, vāsudeva sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. When one understands that Vāsudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is everything, then he becomes the greatest mahātmā. That platform is achieved after many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudeva sarvam iti (BG 7.19). So Vāsudeva is canvassing, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: (BG 18.66) "You just surrender to Me, I shall give you all protection." And one has to come to this position, vāsudeva sarvam iti. So one who is intelligent, he will take it immediately that bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19),
Prabhupāda: "After many, many births, if I have come to this position, that 'Vasudeva is everything,' then why not accept Him immediately?" That is intelligent. Why shall I wait for many, many births? I have got now sense, I have got this human body. Let me do it immediately. That is sense. And if you want to wait for many, many births to come to this conclusion.... We can do that. That is our misfortune. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that you take immediately, without waiting for many, many births. Don't wait. Now we have got human form of body, and here is opportunity, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), to take shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why not do it now?
Prabhupāda: That everyone can do. Is there any difficulty? Simply he must agree, this qualification. That depends on him, agree or not agree. If you agree, then you become qualified. If you don't agree, you remain disqualified. So that is intelligence. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births of struggle, one who is fully in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān. Not the foolish. Foolish person cannot. But vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). You can become immediately mahātmā by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. That is intelligence. Why shall I wait for many many births to become a mahātmā? Let me surrender immediately and become a mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ (BG 9.13)—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, become a mahātmā. It is not very difficult. You can become mahātmā immediately, within a second. But the disease is that you'll not agree to Kṛṣṇa. That is the dangerous disease.
Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, if the spiritual master has a mission, is it proper for the disciple to think that he can take more than one..., he can take many births to help the mission of the spiritual master?
Prabhupāda: When the spiritual master goes there, somewhere, his nearest assistants, they automatically go there to assist him. When Kṛṣṇa comes the demigods also come to help Him. That is there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. All these Yadus, Yadu family, they came from heaven. So before Kṛṣṇa's disappearance, by some trick they were all killed and they returned to their original place. It is nicely described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Just see, small house, this yellow. Still, in New York City.
Prabhupāda: May be true to some extent, but they do not know the ultimate truth. That they do not know. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān (BG 7.19). He understands, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That requires many, many births, to come to that conclusion. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). This Kṛṣṇa says. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: (BG 7.7) "There is no more superior than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). He explains to everyone, sarva-dharman parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). That is the.... There is the ultimate person. You call Him Kṛṣṇa or something, but you must know Him. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ, there must be. Father's father's father's father's father's.... Who is the original father? There must be. Where is the wrong in this statement? So you find out the supreme father, but He has no father; He is the Absolute.
Prabhupāda: We are acting in a certain way to become master, creating a situation, mentality, and at the time of death, when this body finishes, the mind absorbed in that mastership idea takes me to another body according to my ambition, so I become again manifest in different body to exhibit my mastership. Another chapter begins. So they do not know how these subtle laws of material nature is working to give us opportunity to become master according to our idea, false idea. And we are actually suffering, sometimes as human being, sometimes as animal, sometimes as trees, sometimes as dog. So the mastership cannot be attained. That is not possible. In the false idea to become master we are becoming slaves of the laws of material nature. This is real position, and that is suffering. So when one comes to this understanding, that we are not master, we are servant, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births, if by chance one gets the association of the servant of the Lord, then he understands that he is not master, he's servant of Kṛṣṇa. And then he surrenders.
Prabhupāda: If one jñānī is impersonalist, he's not jñānī. He is still unaware of the Absolute Truth. He does not know. Therefore it will take many, many births to come to the understanding of the Personality of Godhead. Therefore he's not jñānī, he's claiming to be jñānī. Such jñānī will take many hundreds of births to come to the position of real jñānī. Find out this bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). So-called jñānī, after many, many births, when he understands Kṛṣṇa and surrenders to Him, then he's jñānī. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That kind of jñānī is very, very rare. The impersonalist means ajñānī. Yes. Because he does not know Kṛṣṇa, the person. There is another verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Āruhya kṛcchreṇa, by the jñāna process, is undergoing austerities and penances, one comes to the platform of paraṁ padam, monism, or platform of oneness. But because he has no shelter, he patanty adhaḥ, again comes to the material.
Harikeśa:
- bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
- jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
- vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
- sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ
- (BG 7.19)
"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.
Vāsughoṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This gentleman is the head of the Marwari community, Mr. Dinami (?). They only speak Hindi. They would like to speak to you but they don't understand English.
Prabhupāda: Based. Kṛṣṇa says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). By studying Vedas, Upaniṣads, if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, that means your study is not complete. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After studying this indirect information of Kṛṣṇa, when one is actually a learned, wise man, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is very rarely found. This is fact. So if one is intelligent, that if only the most intelligent person, after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why not do it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births? That is intelligence.
Doctor: Śrī-kṛṣṇas tu śaraṇaṁ mama.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is ajñāna. So long you are identifying with the body, you are no better than the animal. So we are doing that. We are fighting. "I am Indian. You are Englishman. You are this. You are that. You are..." Simply we are fighting, like cats and dogs, they fight. So that is ajñāna. How you can be prasannātmā? So when one becomes actually situated in spiritual life, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). That is the... In this way when you make further progress, when you actually understand that you are eternal servant of God, then you surrender. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). This situation takes many, many births to cultivate. And when he actually understands, jñānavān—not fools, rascals—then māṁ prapadyate, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That mahātmā is very rare to be found. So bhakti is not so easy. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. It is not so easy. It takes many, many births to come to the understanding that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19).
Hari-śauri:
- bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
- jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
- vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
- sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ
- (BG 7.19)
"After many births and deaths he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare."
Prabhupāda: That's it. So everyone can become a great soul if he accepts the proposal of God. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śara... (BG 18.66). Everything solved. But that he'll not do. Just like your first question was "How to solve these problems?" The problems will be solved as soon as he surrenders to God. But that he'll not do. He is bigger than God. He will make solution by his own plan. This is the difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Similarly to go to the Absolute Truth, you begin with impersonal Brahman. Just as sunshine is impersonal, but everyone can see the sunshine is coming from the sun surface. Everyone knows that. Therefore the sunshine is not so important as the sunglobe. Similarly brahma-tattva-nirviśeṣa, nirākāra-brahma is there, but more important than is the localized aspect. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61), God is all-pervading. The sunshine is all-pervading, and as Paramātmā He is also all-pervading. But if you can enter into the sunglobe, you will meet with the sun god. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). "I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." So there is sun-god. Sun-god and the sun globe and the sunshine, they are one. But different stages of understanding. Similarly, Brahman understanding, Paramātmā understanding, then the Supreme Personality of Godhead understanding. Advaya-jñāna. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But if you stop simply in the sunshine, that means you have no knowledge of the sun god or the sun globe. If you have simply knowledge of the sun globe, then you are not aware of what is the sun-god. But if you know sun-god, then you know what is sun globe and the sunshine. That is wanted. That is perfect knowledge. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). When, after many many births, when one is actually in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19).
Prabhupāda: After many, many lives acquisition of pious activities, now he has got this opportunity to play with this boy, the source of brahma-sukha. Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā. They are not playing with ordinary child. He is the source of brahma-sukha. This is the statement of Śukadeva Gosvāmī. So if we come to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is personally presenting Himself, that is Vedānta. Otherwise, bahūnāṁ janmanām... We have come to that point, but if we neglect, then it will take many, many births to come to that point. Because that is the ultimate. Unless we come to that point, to understand Kṛṣṇa, there is still scarcity of knowledge. And Kṛṣṇa says that "When there is scarcity of knowledge, then I appear." Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). When the scarcity of knowledge is polluted... Not only scarcity, but it is polluted. Glāniḥ. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glāniḥ. This is dharma, to come to the perfect knowledge. Human being must come to the perfect knowledge, because this is a boon. Not the cats and dogs can understand. Human being.
Prabhupāda: Body or no body, that is separate thing. But when you say individual, he is a person. And it is explained also in the Bhagavad... Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām (BG 12.5). Those who are inclined to the impersonal feature... God has got that impersonal feature. So they have to undergo more troubles to understand Him. And after going through troublesome business, bahūnāṁ janmanām, many, many births, then he understands, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam, here is the person." Everywhere this disease is very prominent, that God is impersonal. Perhaps this is the only movement in the world that's preaching, "No, God is person."
Dr. Patel: All Vaiṣṇavas believe in the personal God. This is only.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring some prasāda. Distribute. (break)
Guest (4): ...camp. Let your group come and stay in our camp.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Huh? That is the truth. Actually they do not know, and they cheat others, speaking about God. That is the difficulty. All rascals are doing that. And if I say, "All rascals," it is little harsh, but it has to be said. They do not know what is God, and they speak of God. Let them say frankly that "I do not know what is God." That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). If they are sincere, then after many, many births... Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta... (BG 12.5). They do not know, and they will not accept ācāryopāsanam. The ācārya says, Rāmānujācārya says, Madhvācārya says, big, big ācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu... They will not believe them. They will speculate in their nonsense speculation. This is the difficulty. Without going to the ācārya... Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This is the Vedic process, how one can know. But they will speculate.
Prabhupāda: This is the Vedic process, how one can know. But they will speculate. Ciraṁ vicinvan. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvayaṁ jānāti tattvam... Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvayam, leśānugṛhīta eva hi jānāti tattvaṁ na cānya eko 'pi ciraṁ vicinvan (SB 10.14.29). One who has little mercy of God upon him, he can understand, but others, they can speculate for many, many births; still, they'll never be able. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvayaṁ leśānugṛhīta jānāti tattvam. Leśānugṛhīta eva hi. Leśa. One cannot know God full. That is not possible because you are limited; He is unlimited. Still, if one has learned, at least if one has accepted, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. Bas," his knowledge is perfect. If he simply believes only that "Here is God," he can understand. They don't believe that Kṛṣṇa is God. "Eh... He may be very powerful...," so on. Kṛṣṇa says aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). These rascals will not believe. "So what is there for me?" Mūḍho nābhijānāti. If they remain persistently mūḍhas, who can make them understand? Very difficult.
Prabhupāda: Laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam. Laulyam, yes, right. That is greediness. Laulyam. The verse is by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He advises, kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate: "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you purchase. If it is available somewhere, immediately purchase it." So the next question is, if you want to purchase something, you must pay the price. So therefore said that "The price is laulyam, greediness. How I shall become Kṛṣṇa conscious?" That is price. "How I shall?" Oh, that I can very easily. No. Na janma-koṭi-sukṛtair labhyate. "If one has done pious activities for many, many births, he also cannot have this greediness." It is so rare. But if you have got that greediness, you get Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: I have seen. The soldiers are beating with the butts of the gun—still (laughter) not going. So many varieties of life we had to pass through, and with great fortune we get this human form of body. And that also we waste in the same business—punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), misguided. Labdhvā sudurlabham idam bahu-sambhavānte (SB 11.9.29). After many, many births this human form—people do not understand. Sudurlabham. Durlabham means rare, and sudurlabham means still...
Dr. Patel: More rare.
Prabhupāda: But the rascals, they do not take it very seriously. They think...
Dr. Patel: Such mules,(?) like me. Aneka-janma saṁsiddha sayati paramaṁ gatim.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) The starting is there. Icchā-dveṣa-samutthena sarge yānti parantapa (BG 7.27). (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa bhūliyā jīva bhoga vāñchā kare, pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. As soon as you desire like this, that "I shall become God," so immediately there is māyā. That is māyā. So when you are entangled in māyā, then there is question of mukti. The mukti means muktir hitvā 'nyathā rūpaṁ svarūpena avasthitiḥ. This is mukti. Mukti means when we are acting differently. That is my condition. That is my bondage. And when I act according to my original position, that is mukti. So everyone is acting here to become master. So there is no question of mukti. As soon as you understand that "My real position is I am servant of God, so let me act as serv..."—then it is mukti. Hitvā 'nyathā rūpam. At the present moment we are trying to act as master. So you give it down, up. Act as servant. Then you are mukta. Therefore a bhakta is mukta. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicareṇa-bhakti-yogena sevate (BG 14.26). Anyone who is engaged as bhakta, he is mukta. All are conditioned. So if you become bhakta, if you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, immediately mukti, instantly. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo (BG 18.66). You are conditioned, you are bound up on account of your sinful activities. So Kṛṣṇa says, "I'll give you relief from all the reaction of sinful activity. You surrender." So mukti means one second. You surrender to Kṛṣṇa. It takes one second. But that is very difficult. That requires many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births of suffering, when he comes to the knowledge that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: "This is the most confidential part. You surrender unto Me." So one who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, how he can become guru? He's a cheater. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128). Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). One who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he's actually jñānavān. And this jñānavān is possible after many, many births; not so easily, to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. But if he's there, such a person—vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19)—he is mahātmā. That is mahātmā, not by stamping, anyone, a person, can become mahātmā. This is the symptom of mahātmā, one who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa fully. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. So that is guru, mahātmā, who knows vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19).
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa also says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). To approach Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. After many, many births... We are rotating... (break) ...superintendent of this egglike aṇḍa, universe. It is all Brahmā's. And there are innumerable planets. That we can see. So we are wandering in all these places, sometimes down, sometimes up, sometimes in the middle, according to our karma, in different species of life, in different planets, in different position. So we are rotating. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "Out of these innumerable living entities who are entrapped with this brahmāṇḍa and janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi... (BG 13.9)." Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Life after life, life after life, they are... That we do not know. This is called mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. You die, accept another body, another place, another situation, another position. This is going on. Brahmāṇḍa-bhramaṇa. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "In this way, rotating, and in course of our rotation, if we are fortunate enough, then we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness."
Prabhupāda: They say that "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" They don't mind even if they become a dog next life. Is it not? This is Western civilization. They say plainly, "What is wrong? I'll forget." Such degradation has taken place in the human society. We are trying a little bit to raise them. That is our humble attempt. Otherwise... Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyāḥ (SB 1.1.10). All unfortunate, everyone, all bad, manda. They have created their own manufactured ideas. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayaḥ. Manda-mata and sumanda-mata. Bad, very bad. Why? Manda-bhāgyāḥ, unfortunate. They got this human form of life after so many births, and they do not take advantage.
| Page Title: | Many, many births (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 28 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=88, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 88 |