Prabhupāda: Huh? That's clear. Accha. Then fourth scene is lunar eclipse. You'll have to arrange a scene that just in the evening there is appearance of the full moon on the side of the Ganges and people are taking bath half in the water and half above the water, and they're all chanting, this same scene, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, with mṛdaṅga and... Yes. So somebody comes, Advaita. Advaita comes in the scene to take bath in the Ganges and begins to dance. "Oh, my mission is now fulfilled! My mission is now fulfilled!" He'll talk. He was very sorry to see the condition of the people that everyone is engaged simply for material sense gratification. Nobody is engaged in love of Godhead. So he wanted to rectify their behavior, but he thought that "I am ordinary man, what can I do? If Kṛṣṇa Himself comes, then He can do it." Therefore he worshiped Kṛṣṇa, and he simply offered Ganges water and tulasī leaf. In this way Kṛṣṇa has taken His incarnation as Lord Caitanya. So he has understood now at this moment Lord Caitanya is now taken His appearance. So he was dancing, "Now my mission is fulfilled. Now my mission is fulfilled."
Love of Godhead (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1967 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Oblations. Yes. This, and to beget child by the husband's younger brother. Formerly, the society allowed that if a woman is young, she has no child, but husband died, so if the husband has younger brother, through the younger brother she could have a child. This system was current. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that these five things are forbidden in this age. So Chand Kazi also replied that "Cow killing is also not generally recommended in the Koran. Actually, beef-eating or flesh-eating is not in the higher stage. But those who are inclined to take flesh, for them it is recommended that instead of killing many small animals, one big animal should be killed. So actually in Mecca, Medina, they kill camel. That is also in the mosque." So the substance of his speech was that flesh-eating ultimately is not recommended. "But those who have no other means, they eat flesh and they recommend that one big animal should be killed. So India, the cow is big animal, therefore we kill. But that is not recommended for advanced spiritual students." In this way... So they were friends, and he understood, Chand Kazi understood that it is very nice movement, that "You are preaching love of Godhead. So I did not understand. So my dear boy, henceforward there will be no hindrances in Your movement and I promise that not only myself but all my descendants will never object Your movement, this saṅkīrtana movement."
Prabhupāda: Brief summary... In this scene Caitanya Mahāprabhu became the student. Not exactly student. He inquired and Rāmānanda Rāya answered. So the importance of the scene is that Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not follow the formality, only the sannyāsīs should be the spiritual master. Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can be spiritual master. And to show this example practically, although He was sannyāsī and brāhmaṇa and Rāmānanda Rāya was a śūdra and a gṛhastha, householder, still He became like a student and inquired Rāmānanda Rāya. Rāmānanda Rāya felt some, I mean to say, hesitation that "How can I take the position of a teacher to a sannyāsī?" Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "No, no. Don't hesitate." He stated that either one may be a sannyāsī or he may be householder or one may be a brāhmaṇa or śūdra, it doesn't matter. Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can take the place of teacher. So that was His, I mean to say, gift. Because in Indian society it is simply taken that the brāhmaṇas and the sannyāsī can be spiritual master. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "No. Anyone can become spiritual master provided he's conversant with the science." And the summary of the discussion was how to elevate oneself in the highest perfection of love of Godhead. And that love of Godhead was described, existed, I mean to say, superexcellently in Rādhārāṇī. So in the bhāva, in the feature of Rādhārāṇī. And Rāmānanda Rāya, in the feature of Rādhārāṇī's associates Lalitā-sakhī, both of them embraced and began to dance in ecstasy. That will be the end of the scene. Both of them began to dance in ecstasy.
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: When you go to a medical man do you ask him whether he is Christian or Hindu? I am asking you. Suppose you go to a medical man, do you ask him, "Are you Christian or Muslim or Hindu?" Do you ask him?
Guest (1): Me?
Prabhupāda: No, I am asking this girl. Why? Because your business is to cure your disease. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or a Hindu or a Muhammadan. It doesn't matter. Similarly, you have to seek love of God. Wherever it is available, you have to take it. That should be the point of view. It doesn't matter where it is available. One should be hankering after love of Godhead. Love of God. Gold, somebody is after purchasing gold. It doesn't matter where it is available. Similarly, it doesn't matter whether you develop love of Godhead from this scripture or that scripture. Your aim should be whether you are developing love of Godhead or developing love of non-God. That should be the test.
Guest (2) (older woman): Divine Master, I came to pay my respect and I'm most distressed that I need to leave, but there is series of people who are waiting for me, for a spiritual meeting also. So permit me to bow to you.
Prabhupāda: I don't say that "You Christian, you become Hindu or you come to me." I simply say "You obey these commandments." That is my order. I make you better Christian. That is my mission. I don't say that "God is not there, God is here," but I simply say that "You obey God." That is my mission. I don't say that you have to come to this platform and accept Kṛṣṇa as God and no other. No. I don't say. I say, "Please obey God. Please try to love God." That is my mission. And I give the way how to love God very easily. How to love, provided you agree.
Journalist: Well, see, again we get back to this...
Prabhupāda: So practically you follow that I have no difference.
Journalist: Yes, I understand. I appreciate.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You believe in God, I believe in God. I simply say "You try to love God."
Journalist: Well, I... I'm still... It's not that I'm confused. I understand what you're saying...
Prabhupāda: You are confused still?
Journalist: No. I understand what you are saying.
Journalist: In other words, you're teaching them what you feel is a practical, every day, daily method of obtaining this fulfillment of man's spirit.
Prabhupāda: Yes. How to... The love of Godhead is being taught by Bible or Old Testament and Gītā, that is all right. But you are not teaching them how to love God. I am teaching them how to love God. That is the difference. Therefore young people are attracted.
Journalist: All right. So the end is the same. It's the method of getting there.
Prabhupāda: Not method. You are not at all following. Even the method is there. Just as I say, the method is there, "don't kill," and you are killing.
Journalist: I see, but your... The end is the same. Your end...
Prabhupāda: End is the same.
Prabhupāda: Method is also same, but they are not teaching people to follow the method. I am teaching them practically how to follow and how to do it.
Journalist: Let me ask you something that we've run into a great deal just recently. We've just started a youth supplement for kids. And one of the most... What should I say? That particular thing which provides perhaps the biggest schism between man's, or at least American man's and woman's love of God or the following of the Ten Commandments, is the problem, how shall I put it, well, the sexual problem. We here in this country are taught, and we have the Puritan background, that sex is a bad thing. And hopefully we're coming out of it, but when young people, a person reaches the age of puberty... Here in this country, I don't know from other countries. He begins to have a terrible, obviously a terrible problem. Now I'm stating something that's obvious. We've all gone through this. But it seems that is has been impossible for the western churches to give to the young people something to hold on to so that they can understand number one that what they're feeling is a normal beautiful thing, and number two, how to cope with it. And there is nothing in western culture that teaches or helps a young person to cope with this thing that is a very, very difficult problem. And I went through it. We all have. Now do you in your message, give the young people something to hold...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: If we see that following a particular type of religious principle one is developing his love of Godhead, that is first-class religion. But if one is developing his love for demon or mammon then where is the religion?
Journalist: True.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) You see. That is our test. If you have developed... We don't say that you follow Christianism or Muhammadanism or Jewism or Hinduism—we don't say. Whether you are developing your love of Godhead. But they deny, "Oh, I am God. Who is God? I am God." You see? Everyone is taught nowadays that everyone is God. Just see how fun. Everyone is God. Do you think like that?
Journalist: You know from Meher Baba?
Prabhupāda: He is also another rascal. He is preaching this that everyone is God.
Journalist: He says he's God.
Prabhupāda: He's God. Just see. This is going on.
Journalist: Do you know him?
Prabhupāda: I have heard his name. I don't care to know these people. He's making some propaganda he's God.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Allen Ginsberg: But what do you do when different religious groups claim to be the center? What do you do when different religious groups...
Prabhupāda: No, we welcome every religion. We don't decry any religion. Our point is the love of Godhead. Or Kṛṣṇa is love, all-attractive. So we want to be attracted by Kṛṣṇa. Just like a magnetic force and iron. Unless iron is rusty, it is automatically attracted by the magnetic force. Similarly, we are contaminated by material coverings. So we are trying to make it rustless so that immediately we shall be attracted. This is the program. Kṛṣṇa is all-attractive. That is a fact. And we are attracted. But being covered with this rust, we are, instead of being attracted by Kṛṣṇa, we are being attracted by māyā. This is our whole program. So our central program is how to love Kṛṣṇa, or how to love God. So we want to see... That is the Bhāgavata definition, that how much you have enhanced your love of God. You call Kṛṣṇa or something else, that doesn't matter. Phalena paricīyate. The result. Your religious principle, what is the result? Are you enhancing your love for God or dog? That we want to see. If you are enhancing your love for God, it is all right. We don't say anything. But if... People should learn how to love. That is the perfection of life. That we are teaching.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They will pay nice money to hear us?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (reading letter:) "This can be made extensive by your team of followers from America arriving in..." They are greater. So Indian and American combined kīrtana, oh, it will be very nice. Big kīrtana, and every city will receive. And we shall preach that "Here is the common platform for everyone. There is no distinction of nation or religion or anything. Come to the platform." So the Mohammedans also will join. The government will appreciate that here is something secular, real secular; at the same time, God is there. Actually, it is that. All religious people, so-called religious, come here. And religion means this, to love, I mean to say, develop love of God. That is religion. What is this formularies? Simply formula that "I keep this, I copy that." That is not religion, simply by dressing in different way or sitting in a different way. Where is your understanding? You have no understanding of God. You simply formally attend some church or mosque or temple for some material benefit or for some, make some show, but where is your love of God? That is the test of religion, Bhāgavata says. A religious person means he has got complete love of God. Then he is religious. All right. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Simply wasting time. Bhāgavata says, without developing this love of Godhead, if somebody is engaged in religious ritualistic performance, he's simply wasting his time. Śrama... That particular word is used, śrama eva hi kevalam. Śrama means labor. Eva. Certainly, it is simply laboring. What is called? Labor of love? What is called?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Labor of love.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You love something and unnecessarily you labor. So religion means... This is religion, how to develop love of God. That is religion.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also there is a story in the Bhāgavatam about the girls; they were offering to Lord Śiva.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another feature of Lord Caitanya. He taught in that instruction that there is no need of worshiping demigods. The incident is that in India the unmarried girls, they are encouraged to worship Lord Śiva especially in the month of Vaiśākha, March-April. And they will go to the Ganges side and prepare Śivaliṅga, and they'll... That means Śiva will be pleased upon them to offer a husband like Lord Śiva. Śiva is very peaceful and very great devotee and most powerful at the same time. So that is the ideal husband. So they brought worshipable paraphernalia for worshiping Śiva on the bank of the Ganges, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as naughty boy, approached them. "Oh, my dear sister, what you are doing? Oh, you have brought so many nice things. Give it to Me, and Lord Śiva will be very much pleased. Oh, you are worshiping Durga? She is My maidservant and Lord Śiva is a great devotee of Me. So you please offer Me all these things; they will be satisfied. You don't require to offer separately." By this, He wanted to instruct that worshiping the Supreme Lord is the appeasement of other demigods. You don't require to appease them separately. This instruction. Then some girls will hesitate. Then He will curse them that "You'll be married with an old man having seven children by his former wife." So they will be afraid, "Oh, maybe this boy is cursing..." Then out of fear they'll offer. Then He said, "Oh, you'll have a very nice young husband and you'll have seven children by him." In this way it was going on.
Prabhupāda: What is that? You want to hear? Come on, sit down. So there is no difference. Lord Jesus Christ says that he is son of God. So there is no quarrel between God and God's son. So he says that "Love God," and Kṛṣṇa says, "Love Me." The same thing. (laughs) If you say that "You love me," and your wife says that "Love my husband," there is no difference of opinion.
Yoko Ono: But about the knowledge, I'm a bit worried about it, if you have to, you know, learn Sanskrit and all that, and that's the only way to get enlightenment... I mean, what do you do about people who are not sort of skillful in learning languages and things like that? Would that not at all... I mean, I thought that it...
John Lennon: It's translated, anyway.
Prabhupāda: Translation is there.
Prabhupāda: That you have to test. Now I have given you this one formula. By following any guru or any principle, if you actually develop your love of God, then it is nice. Otherwise it is useless waste of time. That is the test. But they, so far I know, these yogis, they are themselves God. They say that everyone is God. And who is dog? So I think it is not very congenial. How everyone can be God? Then what is the meaning of God?
Guest (1): (inaudible)
Prabhupāda: If everyone is God then what is the meaning of God? You must give definition of God. If you do not, then you do not know what is God. Therefore you are asking...
Guest (1): (inaudible)
Prabhupāda: So it is a great science. It is not bogus propaganda. And based on Bhagavad-gītā and Vedic literatures. Not that it is imaginary. No. There is...(inaudible), realized persons. There is chance of...(inaudible). So if you are here now, take advantage of this great science.
Prabhupāda: Then you... That is bogus. You cannot love everybody. If you love God, then you can love everybody. Because God is everything. So just like if you pour water on the root...
Guest (2): If God is everything, then why don't you, not loving one by one? Why...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But you... That is... Just like if you love one tree, then you have to pour water on the root. Not that every leaf. If you want to maintain your body, then you have to supply foodstuff in the stomach. Not to your eyes. Not to your ear. When you get a nice cake, you don't put it here. You put it here. Why? That is the process. There are nine holes in your body. Why do you put in this hole?
Guest (2): Yes, but...
Prabhupāda: First of all answer this.
Prabhupāda: If you ignore the root and you take the leaf you simply spoil your time.
Guest (2): No, but what I wanted to say is that why can't love of the God and love of matter go and rise up to...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you love God, you love matter and God...
Because matter is energy of God.
Guest (2): Then you said that the technique, that you decide as to whether you are succeeding is, you'll find out whether a technique is the best or not when your love for God will increase and love for matter will decrease.
Prabhupāda: No. In relationship with God... What is matter? Matter is another manifestation of God's energy. Just like if you love yourself, your body, then naturally you love your finger, the part of the body. Therefore God is the supreme whole. If you love God, then you can understand that I have to love everybody.
Guest (3) (Indian man): What is God?
Prabhupāda: What is God? God... Can you define God?
Guest (3): No.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: They are attracted to Kṛṣṇa. These people, they are... (Hindi) But you are taking Kṛṣṇa as Hindu. That is your mistake. Kṛṣṇa is... Hindu ne. He is God. He is God. God Hindu ne, Mussulman ne, Christian ne, Parsi ne—God is God. (Hindi) And I am also not interested to preach Hindu dharma. (Hindi) ...Kṛṣṇa dharma. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the only dharma. (Hindi) ...Kṛṣṇa literature. It is not a Hindu dharma literature. (Hindi)
So they are not interested in many gods, Durga, Kali, or Śiva, or... (Hindi) Strictly, if you take the version of Bhagavad-gītā, why Bhagavān says that "You give up all religion. Simply you take to the shelter of My feet?" That means to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet is the only religion. (Hindi) Practically that was against Hindu conception. (Hindi) We are not talking of God, (Hindi) we are talking of love. Why you misunderstand? Don't misunderstand the philosophy. We are teaching love of Godhead. It is not we are teaching that you become afraid of God. (break) (Hindi) Bahut easy process hai. You come, sing, dance, and take prasādam. Is there any difficulty? If people come to us, in melodious songs they sing and they dance and when they are tired they take sumptuously prasādam, so what can be the more convenient way? (Hindi) You are a qualified lawyer, but you cannot do for want of money. (Hindi) He has no right because he does not know what is name. Nāma-cintāmaṇi-kṛṣṇaś caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ. (Hindi) Yes.
Guest (1): "Whatever you do." "Whatever you do." It is not written that you should do the aṣṭāṅga-yoga.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We are discussing this verse. He said that "Anyone who is always think..." Karma-yogi also always thinks of Kṛṣṇa. That's all right. That is not denied. But the highest principle is always keeping Kṛṣṇa within his mind. Premāñjana-cchurita... That is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). This kind of practice of yoga can be done by an unalloyed devotee. Premāñjana-cchurita, by developing the dormant love of God. That is... That is the highest perfection. And another thing is, you are accepting mind as ātmā, are you not? That's not correct. Mind is not ātmā.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Interviewer: So many churches. Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So many churches. And I spoke in many of the churches there. My host arranged for that. So it was not with that purpose, that I came here to defeat some religious process. That was not my purpose. Our mission is, Lord Caitanya's mission is, to teach everyone how to love God, that's all.
Interviewer: But in what way, sir, may I ask, in what way did you think, and do you think right now, that the teaching of the love of God which you are doing, is different and perhaps better than the teachings of the love of God which already were being conducted in this country and have been conducted in the Western world for centuries?
Prabhupāda: That is fact. Because we are following the footsteps of Lord Caitanya. He is considered... He's accepted by us—according to the authority of Vedic literature—He is personally Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Any religion. Because God is one. It is the science of God. The "two plus two equal to four," it is understood by everyone. It is not that it is to be understood by the Christian, not by the Hindus. "Two plus two equal to four" is a fact for everyone. Similarly God is fact for everyone. Now how to love God. This is the only process. That is.
Interviewer: Now do you claim then that your way of loving God is the way to love God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. At least for this age.
Interviewer: For this age?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Interviewer: You meant for Kali-yuga? For the time that we live in right now?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the method is authorized. Kṛṣṇa prescribes this. Kṛṣṇa Himself as Lord Caitanya, He says that this is the only method for self-realization or for God realization or to learn how to love God. He says. Kṛṣṇa says. Therefore it is authorized. And it is practically happening. Otherwise, these boys and girls, they are foreigners. They never knew Kṛṣṇa. Now I have got sixty centers and each center, they are on the average hundred devotees and they have dedicated their life. How it is happening unless it is authorized?
Interviewer: So many churches? Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so many churches. And I spoke in many of the churches there. My host arranged for that. So it was not with that purpose that I came here, to defeat some religious process. That was not my purpose. Our mission is, Lord Caitanya's mission is, to teach everyone how to love God. That's all.
Interviewer: But in what way, sir, may I ask, in what way did you think, and do you think right now, that the teaching of the love of God which you are doing is different and perhaps better than the teachings of the love of God which already were being conducted in this country, and have been conducted in the Western world for centuries?
Prabhupāda: That is fact. Because we are following the footsteps of Lord Caitanya. He is considered..., He's accepted by us according to the authority of Vedic literature, He is personally Kṛṣṇa.
Interviewer: Which Lord is that?
Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya.
Prabhupāda: Because God is one. It is a science of God. If two plus two equal to four, it is understood by everyone. It is not that it is to be understood by the Christian, not by the Hindus. Two plus two equal to four is a fact for everyone. Similarly, God is a fact for everyone. Now, how to love God, this is the only process. That is.
Interviewer: Now, do you claim, then, that your way of loving God is the way to love God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. At least for this age.
Interviewer: For this age?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Interviewer: You mean for Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because the method is authorized, Kṛṣṇa prescribes this. Kṛṣṇa Himself and Lord Caitanya. He says that this is the only method for self-realization, or for God-realization, or to learn how to love God. He says. Kṛṣṇa says. Therefore it is authorized. And it is practically happening. Otherwise, these boys and girls, they're foreigners, they never knew Kṛṣṇa. Now, I have got sixty centers, and in each center there are, on the average, hundred devotees. And they have dedicated their life. How it is happening, unless it is authorized?
Interviewer: Well, you know they say they never knew Kṛṣṇa, and you are, of course, right. But different peoples name their Gods in different ways. You name your God "Kṛṣṇa." In the Western world many, many people name their God "Jesus."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: We are preaching God consciousness. God is God. God is neither Christian, nor Hindu, nor Muslim. God is God. So everyone should be God conscious. That is our movement. We are preaching love of Godhead. So it doesn't matter what type of religion one is following. We simply want to see that he has love for God. Our bhāgavata-dharma defines: that is first-class religion following which one becomes a lover of God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religion if by following that one becomes a lover of God. It doesn't matter what religion he is following, but the test will be whether he has become a lover of God. That is our...
Sister Mary: So you don't try to convert people from other religions.
Prabhupāda: No.
Sister Mary: One can be Christian and...
Prabhupāda: Anyway. We are teaching how to love God. That's all.
Prabhupāda: You can see whether he's loving God or dog. That's all. That you can see. Everyone can see, whether he has got good love for dog or good love for God. That you can see. Anyone can see. The test is there. Crucial test is there.
Revatīnandana: Jesus used the expression loving God or loving mammon.
Prabhupāda: That says, or... Everyone says different way. Mammon or dog is expression in the faith. That is the test. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says:
- yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa
- cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam
- śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ
- govinda viraheṇa me
Yugāyitaṁ, "Every moment is just like twelve years." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam, "crying like torrents of rain." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam, śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ. "Oh, I find everything is vacant." Govinda viraheṇa me, "without God, without..." This is an ideal picture. So another test is, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhava-viraktir anyatra syāt. If one has become lover of God, naturally he will be detached to material enjoyment. Love of God and love of material world cannot go together. Either this or that. Just like Lord Jesus Christ. He never advised to, for economic development, for industrial development, or this and that. So many things. He sacrificed everything for God. That is one test, that "Here is a lover of God." He was punished that "You, you stop this preaching," but he did not. So that is love of God. He sacrificed everything. That is love of God. So the ideal is Lord Jesus Christ, and the follower must be, at least to some extent, to that point. That is test. So we say that you follow any religious path. That doesn't matter. We want to see whether you are lover of God. That is our propaganda.
Sister Mary: We see that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So what you want more? Therefore let us cooperate. Don't think that it is against Christianism or it is sectarian. Let us cooperate fully. Jointly, let us preach all over the world, "Chant the holy name of God." Let us join together. That should be the real purpose of devotees of God. Here is... They are preaching love of God. Why should we be envious about them? It doesn't matter. We don't say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you have got name of God, you chant it. That's all. But we are preaching this cult, that chant the holy name of God. That's all. So what objection there may be from other sects? But they are envious. Because the younger generation are taking to it, so they are envious. Why they are envious? We wanted to purchase one church, and the priest in charge said that "I shall better burn this church. I shall not give them." Just see. Why? What we have done wrong? This is the very statement. "Better I shall burn this church, but I won't give them." Then? What we have done?
Sister Mary: Don't worry about that.
Prabhupāda: That is nice. Now, the, by praying, it is expected that one should have mercy of God. So what is the test that he has got the mercy of God?
Sister Mary: The mercy of God is the love of God, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: That's it. Mercy of... So... That is the test, that he has learned how to love God. Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). Caitanya Mahāprabhu is also worshiped, that "You can give love of God." Kṛṣṇa prema-pradāya te. Namo mahā-vadānyāya. "You are the most munificent of all incarnations because You are distributing love of God." Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). Kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne. "You are Kṛṣṇa in the form of devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So I offer my respects." This is Rūpa Gosvāmī's prayer.
Sister Mary: Do you find that you chant, it clarifies you?
Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. God and God's name, and God or God's son, they are nondifferent. So either I be in touch with God's son or God's name, I am in touch with God. But they are nondifferent.
Revatīnandana: Number three, no gambling. And number four, no illicit sex life. That means no sex life whatsoever outside of marriage. And in marriage, sex life is to beget children and raise them to love God. So we follow these four principles very strictly. In this way we purify our lives and then we can develop spiritual emotion of love of God.
Guest (2): Uh, let's look at the... I quite see these four principles. I wonder if one could look at it slightly from a positive side. You said no animal killing, slaughter and no intoxicants.
Revatīnandana: These are four "nos."
Guest (2): Yes. Fine. Fine. Let's look at the "yes's." What exactly can you eat?
Revatīnandana: We can eat anything: fruit, vegetables, milk products, grains, sugar, nuts, all kinds of vegetable foodstuffs.
Guest (2): Broadly speaking, anything that comes out of the earth.
Revatīnandana: Yes. And we can eat it after it's been offered to the Lord with love and devotion. This we call prasādam or Kṛṣṇa's mercy.
Prabhupāda: Actually, any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's, God's mercy. Just like grain. You cannot manufacture grain. It is by God's mercy you get it.
Revatīnandana: It's fundamentally a God conscious attitude, that this body, this human body is meant for spiritual realization. The fact that the body has got sexual desire, therefore we make a concession for that. We use it for begetting good children. If one wants to marry, he can marry and have good children, and raise them to love God. But the real purpose of human life is not just to enjoy sex life like the cats and dogs. Human life has got a higher purpose. So therefore we believe that our human energy should be utilized in that way, for reducing the eating, the sleeping, the sex life. Reducing these things to the minimum, as much as necessary, rather than as much as possible. And having as much as necessary, that leaves most of our time and energy for cultivating our God consciousness. See what I mean? Therefore the idea is that sex life is the highest happiness for man, we don't subscribe to that. It's the biggest happiness in this material world. But spiritual life means unending happiness. A human being can experience this. The dog or cat can't. So for them there is eating, sleeping, sex life, defending themselves. But a human being can experience higher pleasure in God consciousness. So we think that... Therefore we use our energy in that direction.
Sister Mary: So it isn't a negation of pleasure, but it's a higher pleasure.
Guest (2): Can I ask...
Prabhupāda: This is very important point, that we are not negating pleasure, but we are trying to bring them to the highest pleasure.
Sister Mary: So we believe that the holy spirit empowers artists and composers. And therefore we would say that a symphony was a creation of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Creation... In everything there is hand of God. Therefore one who has learned to see everything in connection with God, he sees God everywhere, every moment. (knock) Yes? Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Premāñjana cchurita (Bs. 5.38). When one has developed love of God, he sees God everywhere, always. Because everything is creation of God; so he can find out, "Here is my Lord. Here is my Lord. Here is my Lord." That is the highest state of loving God. He cannot see anything without connection of God.
Dr. Weir: From the Sanskrit?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṭa is the popular word for Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is always anointed with tilaka. We follow this tilaka, Kṛṣṇa, anointed, with this sandal pulp. So, so far I think, there is some very nearest relationship with this Christian and "Kṛṣṇia". Kṛṣṭa means love, love of Godhead or love. We are preaching also the same philosophy. Try to... Not try. The love of Kṛṣṇa is there in everyone's heart, but it is covered. And being covered, it is misplaced. We are loving our society, loving this body, loving our family, loving our kinsmen, or loving internationally human society. But this love is actually perverted reflection of real love of God. Because the love is not placed in the real place. Therefore we are being frustrated in love. Just like in our country Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country very much. But at the last moment the countrymen shot him down. He was shot down by his own countrymen. The love was paid by (sic:) shooting him and he lost his life. There are many instances.
Dr. Weir: Socrates, Christ, plenty.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So here the love propensity is being misplaced in this material world. That should be placed in God. Then the love will be perfection. Just like if you pour water on the leaves of the tree or branches of the tree it is simply a waste of time. If you pour water on the root then the effect of pouring water is distributed. Similarly, foodstuff, if you place the foodstuff on your nose, on your eyes or your ears, it is simply wasted. But if you put foodstuff to the mouth in the stomach immediately the energy derived from the foodstuff is distributed throughout the whole body. Similarly, if you love God then your, automatically your love is distributed to everyone, every entity. But if you don't love, if you simply love your country... Just like an Englishman, you love your country; German, he loves his country, but there is fight between the English and the Germans because the love is misplaced. But if the Germans or the Englishmen or the Indians they put their love in God there will be no more fighting. Therefore our philosophy is to educate people how to love God. That is real religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religion which teaches the follower how to love God. And as soon he becomes a lover of God... Just like I am Indian, but I have come to western countries to teach love of God. It is not that I am satisfied only in myself that I love God, that's all right. But due to my love to God I love others also, because I am trying to teach them to love God, the same philosophy. So if people take seriously this movement, how to love God, then human society will be first-rate.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems that just like a mother when she is training her young child, because the child is very young and not yet very advanced in intelligence, sometimes the mother uses the method of fear to train her child. So similarly, according to the consciousness of the people the doctrine of love of God has to sometimes be preached with a little element of fear so that they'll accept it.
Prabhupāda: That creation of fearfulness may be sometimes not fact but fearfulness is there according to our actions. That everyone has got experience. Just like if you steal, then you go to jail. It is a fact. It is not a creation of fearfulness. It is a fact. If you contaminate some disease, then the typhoid or any other disease, you contaminate. So there is suffering and that is really fearfulness, that is not a false creation. So sometimes there are false creation, but actually for our misdeeds we have to suffer, that's a fact.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, I mean to say, if you don't follow the Christian principles, how you can claim yourself to become a Christian and how you can ask Jesus Christ to take responsibility for you? These are misleading, therefore people are coming disgusted. Otherwise Christian religion is all right. It teaches love of Godhead, teaches to become moral, it teaches to love people, that's nice. These are good principles.
Viṣala: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bible it says, "Thou shalt not kill", and the Christians say, "Yes, thou shalt not kill but you can kill animals." (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Where it is written that thou shalt not kill animals? "Thou shalt not kill." "Thou shalt not kill," means you shall not kill anything. (break)
Devotee: ...because Jesus ate fish. (laughter)
Devotee (6): He said, "The fish can say, 'Its not what goes in your mouth, its what comes out of your mouth that's important.' "
Devotee: Because Jesus ate fish.
Prabhupāda: Jesus said?
Devotee (6): He said that the... (break)
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) allowed.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says, "Any activities sanctioned in the revealed scriptures and aiming at the satisfaction of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are accepted by saintly teachers as the regulative principles of devotional service. If somebody regularly executes such service unto the Personality of Godhead under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master, then gradually he rises to the platform of serving in pure love of God."
Prabhupāda: That nonviolence. Kṛṣṇa is number one violent. (chuckles) Number one. There is no limit of His violence. Just see.
Yadubara: Don't you have... In the material world, sometimes you have to stand up for what you think is right and sometimes use violence?
Prabhupāda: Only satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa is right. All wrong. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, that is right. Otherwise everything wrong.
Prabhupāda: There is a book, perhaps you might have read, Aquarian Gospel. So in that book I have read there is a Greek word, Christo. Christo... Sometimes we don't say Kṛṣṇa, we say Kṛṣṭa.
Dr. Kapoor: Kṛṣṭa, yes, in Bengali particularly.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this Christo word means "anointed." Kṛṣṇa's face is anointed. And love also. And this Christ title was given to Jesus on account of his love for God. So on the whole, the conclusion is Kṛṣṇa or Christo means "love of Godhead."
Dr. Kapoor: No, Mandakara(?) has tried to argue that the entire Kṛṣṇa religion of Śrīmad-Bhāgavata has been borrowed from the West.
Yamunā: How is this possible?
Dr. Kapoor: Eh?
Yamunā: How does he do that chronologically? How is that possible? It's impossible to do that.
Dr. Kapoor: There was some exchange, some people came from Greece here, and just...
Guru dāsa: But the Greek civilization was not developed five thousand years ago.
Yamunā: It wasn't even developed.
Dr. Kapoor: But he doesn't take it so back as five thousand years.
Guru dāsa: So anybody can say anything. (guest laughs)
Prabhupāda: Our authorities, they accept Mandakara(?) is not as good as Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya. We... Nobody can give credit to Mandakara more than these ācāryas or Caitanya. So how his proposition can be accepted?
Śyāmasundara: "The three categories of devotional service which Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī describes in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu are listed as devotional service in practice, devotional service in ecstasy and devotional service in pure love of Godhead. There are many subheadings in each of these categories. Generally it is understood that in the category of devotional service in practice there are two different qualities, devotional service in ecstasy has four qualities, and devotional service in pure love of Godhead has six qualities. These qualities will be explained by Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī later on.
"In this connection, Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī suggests that the person eligible for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or devotional service, can be classified by his particular taste. He says that devotional service is a continual process from one's previous life. No one can take to devotional service unless he has had some previous connection with it. For example, suppose in this life I practice devotional service to some extent. Even though it is not one-hundred-percent perfectly performed, still, whatever I have done will not be lost. In my next life, from the very point where I had stopped in this life, I shall begin again. In this way there is always a continuity. But even if there is no continuity, if only by chance a person takes interest in a pure devotee's instruction, he can be accepted and advance in devotional service."
Prabhupāda: This is the point. Preaching means this. Even one has no previous record of service, still, if he meets a pure devotee, he becomes enthusiastic. Therefore preaching required. Otherwise, one can say that whatever he has done last life, he will begin from there.
Prabhupāda: This is the process going on in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They become devotee, follow the rules and regulations, the prescribed method, you'll see God. You'll see constantly, twenty-four hours. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti, premāñjana cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena (Bs. 5.38). If you have developed such devotion and love for God, then you will see always God. Just like if you have got a child whom you very much love, you'll see the child always in front of you, always. It is due to love. Similarly, you have to develop love for Kṛṣṇa and you'll see Him. He can be seen by love, not by your method. He is not under any method, but He is under love. So you have to develop love and then you'll see. (aside:) There is no flavor. Is it any flavor?
Martin: It's very faint.
Devotee: Mexican incense.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Devotee: Christian incense.
Prabhupāda: So all science of God is described in Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Preach, preach, preach, preach, preach, preach.... Everyone is (indistinct). That Christian, "Oh what..., what Christian you are? You are disobeying the orders of Jesus Christ, and you (indistinct) a Christian." This is going on. We don't say that because you are Christian you cannot love God. We simply say that you are not following. If you follow, then you can learn also how to love God. I never said. So many questions are there. "By following Jesus(?), yes, we can attain perfection." Yes?
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, which would you like to take?
Prabhupāda: Any one will do.
Devotee: So shall I take your passport now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because I may require in the.... So, we don't want to enter into arguments, but we must know, but if somebody comes to argument, we have to say. What can be done? We say that "You follow Christianity in perfect order, you'll be benefited." That we say. Our test is whether you're advancing in God consciousness. That is our test. You follow Christianity or Muhammadanism, anything you follow, we don't mind. Whether you are developing your God consciousness, love for God, that is our test. But if your process has failed, then you can try this. And you'll see, in our process within so short time, how they are becoming God conscious. You have to admit. And they admit also.
Viṣṇujana: They're not getting any young priests.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Viṣṇujana: They're not getting young priests. Only this movement is getting young priests.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Very young. Just from the womb of the mother. (laughter) Yes?
Devotee: (indistinct) go Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I'm ready. (break—conversation in car) That building is Empire Building?
Devotee: Yes. Empire State Building.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Yes. (laughter). Yes. So, what is our business with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? (child makes noise) (aside) This child will disturb. Our, this movement is that we are trying to love Kṛṣṇa. If I love Kṛṣṇa, or God, then naturally I will be obedient to the laws of God. It is not? Just like these, my students, when, say four or five years ago, I came here, I had no student. I was loitering in the street. Nobody was caring for me. Now I have got hundreds and thousands of student. They can do whatever I order. So I did not pay them anything, neither I brought any money from India, but they are executing my order simply out of love. Is it not a fact? Because they have developed a love for me... The reason may be whatever it may be, but unless they have developed love for me, how they can execute my order without any personal profit? Therefore this is first thing required, that religion means to abide by the orders of God. Simple thing. And this obedience to the laws of God will be automatically performed if everyone loves his dormant love for God. We have taken this science. We are teaching everyone how to love God. If he thinks that "I have learned to love God through some particular religion," we have no objection. Either he is Christian or Hindu or Muslim or whatever he may be, if by executing the religious principles which he is professing he has developed his love of God, then we have nothing to preach to him. The result is there. But because we don't find the love of God is there, that we are putting a simple formula that "Here is the way." By utilizing or by accepting that way he will very quickly love God. So if we agree, if we are convinced that to love God is religion, and that is our main business in the human form of life, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the genuine scientific movement. Everyone should take it. This is the (indistinct). But if somebody thinks that "My aim of life is different. I don't care for God," that is a different case. But our philosophy is, this human life is especially meant for developing that God consciousness or to know the art how to love God.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. He has no other idea. Just like here in this material world the highest pleasure is sex life, so they are changing, different types of sex life, that's all. (break)
(break) We want to see that you are lover of God. God is one. God is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. So we want to see that you love God, that is all. That is our mission. You have forget... (break) ...understand little Bengali?
Guest: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda:
- kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare
- pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare
After forgetting Kṛṣṇa, one wants to lord it over the material nature, but he becomes... (break) Especially in the Western world, everywhere attracted sex life. Mini-skirt so that the other party may be attracted. So many means and ways they want to avoid the after-results of sex life, contraceptive. The center is sex life. They are giving up everything, the hippies, but sex is there. That they cannot give up.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: They are not my books. I am simply translating. They are written by Vyāsadeva, the original Vedic scholar. So there are now many secular states. Our Vedic idea of secular state is the government must be responsible of proper execution of religious system. It doesn't matter whether one is Hindu or one is Christian, one is Mohammedan or Buddhist. It doesn't matter. But it is a government duty to see that one who is professing as Hindu whether he's executing the Hindu principles of religion properly. That is government. Just like government gives license to so many businesses. One man is selling liquor, wine, government issues license. So the government inspector, excise inspector, goes and sees that the man is doing business according to the license. Government should not be callous that "You may go on with your so-called religion, we don't care for it." No. That is not government. Government's duty is to see, just like for example, Christians, their commandment, first commandment is, "Thou shalt not kill." It is the government's duty to see that anyone who is professing Christian, "Why he's killing?" Immediately he should be punished that "You are professing as Christian and you are killing." This is government. Similarly, Buddhist religion also, ahiṁsā. Ahiṁsā paramaṁ buddhiḥ. The government duty should see. And the ultimate test of first-class religion is: the follower has developed love of God. If he does not know anything about God, or if he has not developed love of God, then he has simply wasted time. It may be any religion. That is ultimate test because religion means, it has got relationship with God.
Prabhupāda: What is that? I do not follow.
Paramahaṁsa: Well, like, many devotees, they experience the difficulty that although they sincerely want to love God and serve Him, yet their body is almost like another dictator within them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he is strongly under the grip of māyā.
Paramahaṁsa: Even though the desire exists.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a thief, he knows that "If I steal, I will be arrested. I will be put into jail." And he has seen that one thief, he has stolen, he is arrested. Still he commits theft. He knows everything. Why does he commit theft?
Paramahaṁsa: Why?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: My idea is that if we can connect this Kristo and Christ, that "love of Godhead," there is some meaning. Because we, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are teaching people how to love God. That is our...
Mr. Wadell: To love is very difficult, is it not? It is very difficult.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not difficult.
Mr. Wadell: Well, it is both difficult and not difficult.
Prabhupāda: No. Everything, there is a Bengali word, yanra karya tare saje, anya loke lati baje. (?) Anything, if one is practiced to do, he can do it very easily. And for others, it is just like striking with a rod. Anya loke lati baje. Suppose if there is some difficulty in electricity, I do not know anything. It will be very, very difficult task for me. But anyone who knows, immediately he connects two wires, there is light. It is simply to know the art.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, if you try to pour water to each leaf of the tree, it will be simply waste of time. Similarly, God is the root of everything. Our Vedānta-sūtra says, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Absolute Truth, wherefrom everything has come. So if we love the root, God, then we can love others. Otherwise not possible. Otherwise it is simply waste of time. They have tried. The so-called humanitarian work they have tried. Unity and fraternity and so on, big, big words. But it has not come to... Because there is no love of Godhead, it has failed. Even the United Nations. Central point is missing. So our Vedic injunction is that sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje: (SB 1.2.6) "That system of religion is perfect which teaches how to love God." It doesn't matter, Christian religion, Hindu religion, Mohammedan religion, it doesn't matter. But God minus, this is the present position. Everyone wants to make minus God everything. This is going on. They have no clear idea. If I want to love you, I must have a clear idea of you. On vague idea, I cannot love. But they have no clear idea what is God. So how they can love God? And because they have failed to love God, all the so-called love, humanitarian, philanthropic works and, you know, they have become useless.
Prabhupāda: Well, every religion is authority. That's a fact.
Mr. Wadell: It is, yes. That's true. But every individual is free and must find for themselves.
Prabhupāda: No, we, we... Our proposition is, our proposition is that sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). "That is first-class religion which teaches the followers how to love God." This is our proposal.
Mr. Wadell: Well, we shall see. We have a lot to... (laughs) It is quite possible that I too have been sent.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Give him some prasāda. Just wait little. Take prasādam. Our only fighting is against atheism, godlessness. This is our main fight.
Mr. Wadell: I agree.
Prabhupāda: Yes. People say, "There is no God, God is dead. This is all humbug." And so many there are, atheistic proposals. We are giving fight against this atheism.
Prabhupāda: I see. Thank you. So we are approaching people to become God conscious. That's all. (Aside:) Get the light on. And in the Bhāgavata it is stated, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religion which teaches people how to love God. That is first-class religion. It doesn't matter whether it is Hindu religion or Christian religion or Mohammedan religion, if it teaches the followers how to love God, then it is first-class.
Father Tanner: I think I'm almost only teaching them to love one another.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. One another, that is going on in so many ways. You see? That has never become successful. Neither it will become successful. That is a fact. Because here the atmosphere is so surcharged with material ideas that even if I want to love you, you may not like it. That is the position here. So you cannot be successful to teach people to love one another. That will never be successful. That has never been successful. But if you can teach people how to love God...
Mrs. Wells: How about teaching them how to love themselves?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Mrs. Wells: How about teaching them to love themselves.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is loving themselves.
Prabhupāda: But these four type of branches of education is not sufficient for human being. A human being, above all this education, must have the knowledge how to love God. And that is perfection of life.
Mother: Yeah, well, Michael was taught that when he was very small. The Jesuits saw to that.
Prabhupāda: That is perfection.
Mother: The Jesuits certainly did.
Prabhupāda: So to understand God or how to love God, there is religious system. In every civilized human society, it doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Mohammedanism or Buddhism, the aim, religious system is there in human society besides the education of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is there in the animal society. So a human being is distinct from the animal when he has education how to understand God and how to love Him. That is perfection.
Prabhupāda: So what is the wrong there?
Mother: Well, what I'm saying to you is that...
Prabhupāda: No, what is the wrong? You find.
Mother: ...you can love God and be near God and train to be a medical man. Why don't you let some of your boys be trained to be medical men? Why do you say no?
Prabhupāda: But again you are putting the same question. We are training them for the brain, and you are asking me that "Why don't you train them for the leg?" That is your question.
Mother: But they can still love God. They can still work for God at the same time.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are asking this brain to learn how to walk? Why you are asking this odd question?
Mother: Well, my brain works and I also, if there was a war tomorrow, I could go and be a nurse and look after the sick...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right.
Mother: No, no. You've missed the whole point. Mrs. Christie's original statement was, if the young men here went on, not mer..., keep the knowledge and the search for the knowledge and love of God, by all means, but let them go on to develop their knowledge in the world of science, in the world of learning, and thus become leaders in that particular branch with a spiritual motif behind it, and instead of enclosing yourselves inside a circle like this, being able to spread the love of God amongst the tens of thousands of young people in the world. That's all...
Revatīnandana: No. I, I suspect...
Mother: We need it. We need it.
Revatīnandana: I suspect that for the hundred, hundred or hundred and twenty of us in England, I think, for the number of us, I'll bet we're doing more work per man to spread it among the young people than your mission is.
Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't know. You're making this statement. I haven't proof.
Revatīnandana: Well, I know that in almost all of our centers they suddenly happen to be developing a temple like this. We spend every day, from ten o'clock in the morning until nine o'clock at night engaged in preaching work.
Jesuit Priest: I think most of us do, too.
Prabhupāda: Now, in each of our centers we have got minimum fifty heads, maximum two hundred, 250. In Los Angeles, you see... Just we have got recent photograph. Bring the photograph from my room. You can bring. So we are giving them place, we are giving them food, we are giving them education.
Prabhupāda: In this way. So we invite anyone, everyone, without any distinction, without any discrimination. He may be Christian, he may be Hindu, he may be Mohammedan. "Come on. Live with us, and learn how to love." That is our mission. We say, according to our Vedic description,
- sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
- yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
- ahaituky apratihatā
- yayātmā suprasīdati
- (SB 1.2.6)
If you actually want peace of your mind, then you must try, you must learn how to love God. So our preaching is... It doesn't matter, whatever religion you are following, it doesn't matter. If you have achieved this aim, how to love God, then your system is first-class. That's all. That is our question. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Bhakti, means love of God. How much you have learned to love God, that much we want to know. We don't say that "You are Christian, you become followers of Hindu rituals or Mohammedan rituals." No. You remain in your position, but just try to love God to the best of your capacity.
Jesuit Priest: Very nice to come here, and congratulations for...
Prabhupāda: No, our only proposal is that you try to love God. That's all. God is one. God is neither Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Christian. God is God. So let us love God. That's all. That is perfection of life.
Mother: Well, you can rest assured, we do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, do that.
Mother: Yes, we do that.
Prabhupāda: That is our...
Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't have given up my life to Him fifty-two years ago to be a Jesuit priest unless I loved God, would I?
Prabhupāda: No. Unless you love God, how you have become priest?
Jesuit Priest: And I'm not only one, but there happen to be thirty-three thousand of us in the world.
Prabhupāda: Because you have become a priest, that means you love God.
Jesuit Priest: Yes. Fifty-two years ago I made up my mind.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is understood.
Revatīnandana: Yeah, why not? That's pretty clear, actually. "Well, we love God. Yes, we love God." A steak and a glass of wine and God.
Śrutakīrti: I think a storm is coming.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śrutakīrti: A rainstorm is...
Prabhupāda: Rainstorm? No.
Revatīnandana: Little, little... It might rain. It's not for a while. But when it gets misty, it sometimes rains.
Prabhupāda: You can understand from the cloud. When it's blackish, then there is rain. (Break) (end)
Prabhupāda: What Christianity says about this plan?
Cardinal Danielou: Christianity thinks that creation is the work of the love of God, and the signification of creation is that God wants to partake His richness, His joy, His beauty with free spirit and the goal of the creation is essentially the realization of this communion with God, the communion with God. Alors, the visible world is without great importance. It is an appearance. But there is a reality in human person, in human personality, because human personality is, has a...
Yogeśvara: If you like I can translate. (Paraphrase)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui. You understand, you understand what I say? Or not very well? (French)
Prabhupāda: So the creation... We are, we all living entities, we are also part and parcel of God.
Cardinal Danielou: A sin of man or is the love of God? What is the origin?
Yogeśvara: Is this creation...?
Prabhupāda: When, when the living entity forgets love of God, he's given this material world.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes yes, I agree. Christianity agrees with this.
Prabhupāda: The exact word, in Bengali, there is a poet,
- kṛṣṇa-bhuliyā-jīva bhoga vāñchā kare
- pāśate māyāra tare jāpaṭiyā dhare
As soon as the living entity forgets his position as eternal servant of God, and he wants to imitate God to enjoy, at that time, māyā, illusion, or Satan captures him, captures him.
Cardinal Danielou: Oui. Bien. Cest, nous avons... We have today many community of prayers where young men go together and in the monastery or in the... N'est ce pas? And pray together with alternative of silence and of lectures, of some text of the Bible and of the gospel, you know. Because we, we think that the life of Jesus is the model or the shape, and we like that Jesus is the manifestation of God. He is the way, the way. Because it is necessary to find God, who is hidden, to have a way, to have a way. And for ourself, Jesus is the way to go to the hidden God. You know, you know. The imitation of Jesus is, for a Christian, the ideal, imitation of his poverty, of his goodness, of his love of God.
Yogeśvara: He says the ideal of Christianity is to imitate these various qualities of Lord Jesus Christ.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui. I think that this is perhaps not an essential point. I think that in this realm the uses of various religions can be good. The importance is to love God.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: But the commandment practical can be various.
Prabhupāda: No. Just like God, if God says that: "You can do this," that is not sin. But if God says that: "You cannot do it", then it is sin.
Cardinal Danielou: When God says that it is not good to Indian, and says to the Jews that it is...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Now take... Therefore I say that Jesus Christ, either you call him God, or confidential representative of God, both of them are one, when he says: "Thou shalt not kill," why should we interpret in an another way, to our convenience?
Guest: (German) I would ask if in the Christian conscience if it gives anything which resembles to this, which is of some worth. Because in your books sometimes you speak of Jesus Christ. He also said: "What have we to do? We have to love God with all our heart and to serve Him." If it gives any movement in your knowledge in Western Europe or in the world in the Christian side one can read what is what.
Haṁsadūta: He wants to know if Christian, Christian teachings also bring the same consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes. One has to become...
Guest: (German)
Prabhupāda: ...purified.
Prabhupāda: So, in this way, as soon as we understand or become convinced that I am not this body, then spiritual education begins. (If) I am different, then the next question will be, then what for I am working? Naturally at the present moment we are working for this body, maintenance of the body. For eating, sleeping, having facility for sex life or sense gratification and to protect this body from being harmed. This is our business. But if I am not this body, then, I am spirit soul, then the next question will be, what I am doing for the spirit soul? When actually I am working for this body because I, spirit soul, is within this body. Just like we are keeping this room fit for habitation because I am living here. Three months or four months ago we are not in possession of this room. So we were not anxious about this room. Because we were not living. So actually I am keeping my body fit, nice, just to live within this body. Therefore actually I do not love this body, I love myself. And to keep myself in a nice position, I love this room or this house. My main business is to get me, as I am, comfortable. Not that it is my business to keep this house neat and clean only. No. No, my business is to keep myself fit. So actually I love my soul. Then if you analyze, studying your soul, what is the constitution, you'll find the soul is part and parcel of God. Then you come to the platform that you love the soul because you love God. The ultimate issue is God. As you love this body because you love the soul, similarly you love the soul because you love God. And that is now lost. We are embarrassed in the affairs of loving this body. The background we have forgotten. This is our present stage. Therefore we are in confusion. There is no satisfaction.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: By God's grace, what happens?
Guest (1): One cannot... One achieves, one attains love for God, pure love. And, uh, by loving God, one, one, uh, one's..., one no longer identifies himself with his body.
Prabhupāda: So result of loving God, what it is?
Guest (1): Without loving God?
Prabhupāda: No.
Devotee: Result.
Prabhupāda: Result is what?
Guest (1): Of loving God? Yes.
Prabhupāda: What will come?
Guest (1): Is union with God. Union with God.
Prabhupāda: You are not learning there, where you are staying?
Guest (1): I'm learning. I'm learning love. It's, Mahārāja..., this Nim Karoli Baba, has told us that love, love of God is the highest.
Prabhupāda: But love, if you have no form where to love? The air?
Guest (1): You love the form, it's true. You have bhakti, you love the form of God.
Prabhupāda: But you said it's formless.
Guest (1): Ah, yes. Well, it's, uh, that, I've read the...
Prabhupāda: How it is? How, if is formless, how you can love, enjoy?
Guest (1): You can't love the formless, it's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Fictitious love. Why don't you ask this intelligent question? If you say formless, then where is the love?
Guest (1): He doesn't teach the formless. That was my own view, but that is not anything that he's ever taught me.
Prabhupāda: What does he teach?
Guest (1): He said...
Prabhupāda: He teaches form?
Guest (1): He says that... Yes. He is a great bhakta of Hanumānji.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest (3): The soul isn't impure. That's the only reality-purity of the soul.
Guest (1): You love God.
Prabhupāda: Purity of the soul, that means there are impurity of the soul.
Guest (1): It seems that way. It seems that there is...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): ...to my eyes.
Prabhupāda: Then you have to distinguish which is impure and which is pure.
Guru dāsa: Prabhupāda was the other day saying that we're the, we have the science of love of God. Many people say, the material scientists say perhaps or about 5,000 years ago such and such happened, but we say 485 years ago Lord Caitanya came. Five thousand years ago such and such happened. There are 8,400,000 species of life, not perhaps there are 8,400,000. So, this is very scientific, this relationship.
Prabhupāda: This is very difficult for the Māyāvādī philosophers to answer, that everyone is God but when God becomes ignorant? And what kind of God He is that He forgets and becomes ignorant? In māyā. So māyā becomes better than God? Is it not? Then what is the definition of God? So many things. But they cannot answer. Just like you said that when you become ignorant (indistinct) God, how it happens? (indistinct). God, how God can be ignorant? And how can God become forgetful? It is contradictory. Then what kind of God he is, that he becomes ignorant sometimes?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neither we would have agreed.
Prabhupāda: Why shall I ask them to be? I asked them, "Just become lover of God. That's all. If you can love God through your religion, that's all right. You do that." I said that. I never said that "You become Hindu." Then I would not have been able to...
Dr. Patel: I think that they must understand, sir, that Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion. Religion is a Vedic religion, which is common to Christianity. I would say that Jesus Christ has taught the Vedic religion to the Middle East and to the heathens and he was crucified because the heathens were not able to understand him properly. That is what my, I mean, convictions, strong conviction is that Jesus had actually preached Hinduism, I mean Vedic religion there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he was...
Dr. Patel: And all religions are in fact Vedic.
Prabhupāda: He was educated of his spiritual life in India. Twelve years here. Twelve years he was. And he lived in Jagannātha temple.
Prabhupāda: ...not this, not that. That will not help. You must act in such a way that these people accept you as superior. (break) ...(Hindi) (break) ...not a paid servant. (break) ...bring Bhagavān at your control. You can bring Him at your control by love. Just like Yaśodāmayī... She's showing the stick: "Kṛṣṇa, if you do like this, then I will chastise you." And He's crying. That is premā. (break) Premā pum-artho mahān. That is the highest achievement, to achieve the love of Godhead. And if you love God, then you achieve love of everyone. (Hindi) (break)
Dr. Patel: I like you calling me... "What is that, what you are doing now?" (laughs) (break)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break) ...anya Mahāprabhu has taught us that to remain a fool and rascal before spiritual master is the first qualification of the disciple. Always remain a fool and rascal.
Prabhupāda: ...confirmed in Brahma-saṁhitā. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena (Bs. 5.38). Bhakti-vilocanena. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Those who have become santa and those whose eyes are smeared with love of Godhead, they see every moment Kṛṣṇa. They do not see anything but Kṛṣṇa.
Mr. Sar: Balaṁ balavatām asmi.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mr. Sar: Kāma-rāga-vivarjitaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Now this is another seeing, another seeing, that one is very strong. That strong, strength is Kṛṣṇa.
Mr. Sar: Where does he get the strength from? Strength is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That you will learn. That is stated in the śāstra. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). When you develop love for God, then you can that spiritual eyes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva. He sees everywhere, always. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilo... That you have to develop that position. Immediately you cannot do that. Yes, immediately you have to see physically. Then gradually, when by offering service, you develop your dormant love for God, then you can see spiritual. It is not immediately or for everyone. So you have to wait for tha position.
Guest (6): Consciousness movement in the West-like you said, the Western people are fed up with materialism. Is it that they are fed up only with materialism or with...?
Prabhupāda: Well, people, people have become godless everywhere. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or Muhammadan or Hindu. That is a general disease. So actually, everyone is concerned now with material comforts. But these material comforts mean wine and women, that's all. Substance of material comforts. So that they have enjoyed enough. The facility of enjoying woman and getting money, there is no limit. There is no limit. Anyone, the money is thrown in the street. You can simply collect. And similarly, women are available. So actually, they do not get any happiness by these material elements. They are seeking after something, that's a fact.
Prabhupāda: ...principles? What we should inform to the people in general?
Pañcadraviḍa: I try to remember that Lord Caitanya, He informed that the purpose of all Vedic literatures is to acquaint people with their relationship which they have forgotten with God, to teach them how to engage themself in that relationship and to understand that the goal is to come to pure love of God. So when I speak I try to bring that into it also because we are actually speaking from śāstra, so we should acquaint people with the principles of devotional service, tell them that they have forgotten God, that they must serve God and practically how they can do it.
Prabhupāda: No, they will say that "We have not forgotten God. We go to church regularly." And the Mohammedans will say that "We go to mosque. So why we have forgotten God?"
Pañcadraviḍa: Going to church or mosque... When we are speaking to the people, we don't discourage that they change their religion or anything.
Prabhupāda: No. You, your charge is that they have forgotten God. They will answer that "We have not forgotten God. We are going to church, we are going to our mosque. Why we have forgotten God?"
Prabhupāda: "Whatever it may be, when I offer my prayers, I remember there is some God. I may not have clear idea. I have got my own conception of God." So what is the answer?
Satsvarūpa: Well, there are symptoms if you... We don't discourage, as Pañcadraviḍa Mahārāja says, but if you are following God, the best religion is that which develops love of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is answered. "If I haven't got love for God, then why I am coming to church?"
Pañcadraviḍa: If you have love for God, why you are coming to church?
Prabhupāda: No. "Because I have got love for God, therefore I am coming to church. At that time I could have earned some money."
Pañcadraviḍa: But we're also teaching that this love, love is not just based on sentimentality. Love is also practical. Just like in this world, when there is relationship between man and woman, there is a practical exchange of love. It is not simply that love is only based on words. Also one is based on actions. We can judge how much a man is developing love by what his activities are.
Prabhupāda: "So what you have found in me that you have concluded that I have no love for God. What you have seen in me?"
Pañcadraviḍa: I have not concluded that... When I speak with a person, I do not say, "I have concluded that you have no love of God."
Prabhupāda: "You say. That you have charged, but on what account you say like that? What I have done?"
Nitai: Because you go to church only for one hour all week. The rest of the time is not spent in serving God.
Prabhupāda: That may be. But that does not mean that I do not love God.
Satsvarūpa: Well we don't criticize your love of God, but it can be increased. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā always think of Him in whatever you do, during your work, during the week. We can teach you how to... You like to go to church? That shows you have some affection for God. We can teach you how, wherever you are, to think of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: This is not proper answer.
Pañcadraviḍa: Then if you have love of God, then we are also spreading this consciousness of love of God all over the whole world to people who have not developed that love, then you should willingly engage yourself in supporting this work.
Prabhupāda: "But we are also preaching." Mohammedans will say, "We preaching. We take also sword sometimes. If he does not believe in God, we cut his throat." The Christian missionaries, they will also say that "We are also going on all over the world. We have made so many big church."
Pañcadraviḍa: We have also got our work, and we show them...
Prabhupāda: No, no. How do you say that you are better than him? If they are also doing, it may be difference of degrees, but we are also doing the same thing.
Pañcadraviḍa: If a person is having love of God, though, then his love is not simply confined to his own work. You say you are having love of God; we are also spreading this movement all over the world. So God is one...
Prabhupāda: "No, no, we are also preaching Christianity all over the world. Our number of Christians is higher than your number of devotees. Our preaching work is better than yours."
Pañcadraviḍa: We ourselves are coming from Christian country, and we see that the entire society is so-called Christian, but...
Prabhupāda: Do you mean to say entire society is after you?
Pañcadraviḍa: Pardon me?
Prabhupāda: Can you prove that the entire society is after you only?
Pañcadraviḍa: We have got our society, this International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness.
Prabhupāda: "That's all right, we have got our society. But we are also preaching, and we have got many countries, we have got devotees, Christians. Number of Christian is greater than your number of Vaiṣṇava devotees."
Prabhupāda: That is already settled. We are also serving. We are preaching Christianity.
Pañcadraviḍa: So then the work we are doing, God is one, we are all serving God, then there should be no objection to assisting us in propagating this love of God all over the world. You are already saying...
Prabhupāda: No, what is that love of God? That is already answered, that "We have also love of God."
Pañcadraviḍa: If you love someone, what are you doing? What is the aspect of your personal life?
Prabhupāda: "No, what we are not doing? What you are doing?"
Pañcadraviḍa: Our engagement is twenty-four hours.
Prabhupāda: "That may be. One may be engaged twenty-four hours or may be engaged for eight hours. That does not mean, you cannot say that I have no love for God." (pause)
Akṣayānanda: It has already been predicted in the śāstra that this method of chanting the holy name of God will be accepted by everyone in the world.
Prabhupāda: "That may be in your śāstra. But what is the extra thing? That chanting, that's all right. We also go to the church and sing hymns also."
Prabhupāda: Here you have come to the real point. Here he has come to the point. That is the point. If you love God, then why you disobey His order? That means you do not love God. That is the real point. (break) ...is that you love God for getting something from Him. But we do not love God for getting something. This is another point. So the first point is this. This is very important point, that if you love God, why you are becoming disobedient to the orders of God? That is the most important point.
Pañcadraviḍa: But if the man says, "I am Muslim; how you can say I am disobedient to the laws of God? I am following my own religion?"
Prabhupāda: No, no, we shall come to the Muslims next. First of all let us talk with the Christians.
Satsvarūpa: We are always arguing with them. They say they are following. They are allowed to kill animals.
Pañcadraviḍa: "I am accepting Christ. Therefore I am saved. I am following closely Christianity."
Prabhupāda: No, no. If you love God, then why you are disobeying His order. That is my charge, first thing. God says, "Thou shalt not kill," but why you are killing? This is the charge I give to the Christians.
Pañcadraviḍa: ...vegetables are also alive.
Prabhupāda: No, everyone... We are not talking of everyone. We are talking of you. You love God. So why you are killing? No, killing... There is open declaration, "Thou shall not kill." So you are deliberately disobeying. Then where is the love?
Pañcadraviḍa: "But even if I become vegetarian, still, I will..."
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not questioned. God says that you shall not kill. But you are killing. Where is your love? You cannot argue with God. Then you do not love. You cannot put your argument, logic, "What God has said I must do." That is not...
Pañcadraviḍa: "But God did not mean us not to eat. We must eat."
Prabhupāda: God did not... That means you have to eat only meat. You have nothing to eat?
Pañcadraviḍa: But if I eat a plant, it is also killing.
Prabhupāda: That is your argument. But God says that "Thou shalt not kill." You cannot argue. This is the first theory... Suppose if I say something to you, order, you cannot argue. That is not obedience. Obedience means without argument accepted. That is obedience. That is love.
Satsvarūpa: The other important point is that we love God not for getting some reward. You say that the other important thing is that this person claims to be pious, but he approaches God for material reward.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is business. That is not love. I go to somebody and flatter him to get something. Just like a shopkeeper does also like that. He flatters the customers in so many ways to sell goods so that he can make some profit. So there is no question of love.
Akṣayānanda: But that "I am following Jesus Christ and I am a vegetarian," so that's all right, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: I am following Jesus Christ?
Akṣayānanda: That "I am a vegetarian. I do not eat meat. I don't kill. I do not kill."
Prabhupāda: Oh, therefore I am a better Christian, better than you. Love... Therefore the Bhāgavata is perfect. Bhāgavata says that... Bhagavad-gītā says... Kṛṣṇa says that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So we are obeying Kṛṣṇa. We offer patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ. And we eat the remains of the foodstuff. Therefore we love. That is the proof. But you are not loving Jesus Christ because you are disobeying the order.
Prabhupāda: The love is also there in God.
O'Grady: But God is not love?
Prabhupāda: God is love. God is everything.
O'Grady: Oh, yeah. Then love is God.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
O'Grady: Our manifestations of love are manifestations of God.
Prabhupāda: Ah... Because we are part and parcel... Just like son born of a particular father, he has got the symptoms, so because there is loving propensity in God and we being part and parcel of God, therefore we have got this loving propensity. This is the conclusion. Unless the loving propensity is there in God, where we get it?
O'Grady: Maybe it's generated in you by the need...
Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of "maybe." It must be, must be.
Monsignor Verrozano: Could you be so kind to say to us something about your movement which is spread in the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our movement is that, that is first-class religious system which teaches how to love God. This is the sum and substance of our movement. There is a Sanskrit statement in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,
- sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
- yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
- ahaituky apratihatā
- yayātmā suprasīdati
- (SB 1.2.6)
If you want to be happy, then you must take to the superior type of religious system which teaches the followers how to love God without any motive, and which is never checked by any material condition. God's name is given here as Adhokṣaja. Adhokṣaja means beyond experimental knowledge. God has got many name according to different situation, and one of the name, for the materialistic person, adhokṣaja. Akṣaja means experimental knowledge. Akṣa means eyes or senses. Beyond sense perception. So we cannot speculate about God, but we can understand about God from authorities. This is the conception of Bhāgavata-dharma.
Cardinal Pignedoli: You were.
Prabhupāda: No, not on the street. Some of the boys, they came to my hotel. So so far I saw, the people, they are very nice. They are very nice, but the government supresses their sentiments. Everyone has got religious sentiments. The people is as good as in other places. I don't find any difference. It is not that the whole Russia is atheist. It is not that. They are as others. They are like that. And our philosophy is that everyone is God conscious; simply it is being suppressed, either by the so-called leaders or by the influence of external energy, which is called māyā. We have got a verse in this Caitanya-caritāmṛta where it is said that nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya. It is not an artificial thing. To make one God conscious is not artificial. God consciousness is there, even in the life of aborigines, most crude people. It has to be awakened by education. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte. One has to be educated. And he should be given chance to hear about God. And then, as soon as he becomes purified in his consciousness, he accepts and begins to love God. So it is not an artificial thing. Either in Russia or any place, any human being, he has got dormant love for God. It has to be awakened by processes. Therefore I began: That process which quickly awakens that God consciousness and engages him in the service of the Lord, that is first-class religious system.
Monsignor Verrozano: In our Christian faith the love of God is joined with the love for man. Are you also interested with this love for man, for our rivals?
Prabhupāda: No, love for man... Let me say it. Love for man is imperfect conception because God is for everyone. God is not monopolized by simply the human society. The animal society, the bird society, the tree society, they are all living entities, soul. According to our karma, they are differently dressed. That is the most important philosophy, that soul is part and parcel of God. Somehow or other, the soul is now separated from the service of the Lord, and according to his desire of enjoying this material world, he has been offered different types of body. So either human being or animal or trees or aquatics, birds, beasts, everyone, all living entities, they are all part and parcel of God.
Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. I have something in the Bhagavad-gītā. If I am not wrong, in the Chapter Eighteen of Bhagavad-gītā, verse sixty-four, there is the affirmation that God loves man, "You are beloved for Me." And in some cases, we consider this affirmation as the very core of Indian religiosity, and we appreciate very much this affirmation of love of God for man.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Monsignor Verrozano: What do you think about this...
Prabhupāda: No. Man is supposed to be elevated position, how to love God. Animals cannot make (break) ...any distinction between a human being and animal. That is really the symptom of God, that sarva-yoniṣu... Just like if I am obedient son of my father, how can I neglect one son who is very stupid? Rather, if I say to my father, "Father, this son is stupid. He does not bring any service. So please allow me to cut his head," the father will never agree. The father, either a stupid son or very intelligent son, he is kind to everyone, because they are sons. So similarly, if a man is real lover of God, he cannot cut throat of the animals. I think, therefore, Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." That is not... If actually one is lover of God, how he can give trouble, pains, to others? That is not possible.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I insist on the first question I asked for. Your aim, your most important aim, if I understood it well, is to bring the faith and love for God to man. No? This is your first aim, to encourage man to be a...
Prabhupāda: Lover of God.
Cardinal Pignedoli: To become lovers of God, friends to God.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cardinal Pignedoli: All right. Do you believe, I mean now from the point of view of facts, or events, not of ideas, of events, of reality, do you think there are many these men who are without spiritual ideas in the world of today?
Prabhupāda: Mostly...
Cardinal Pignedoli: Mostly. You think so.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: God has also some hobby.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. What I used to do when I am traveling... I travel a lot. I used to make friends among young people, generally teenagers. And then I choose also—I try to do this—people who are unbelievers, who are in difficulties, who are men of the weak faith, and who don't love, at least, they say they don't love God. Because I think that we are few men who love God, friends to God... We are not many. And we have to go and to look for these people, and for these areas or environments, where these peoples live. And it is for this reason that I say always when I am good friends, you know... Priests, Catholic priests, well, go to an area because here is too many. They don't need you here, but go to, well, I would say Stockholm or Copenhagen where there are a few really also, Christians, I mean Catholic or Protestants. We are all brothers. But they go there because there are very few people who are dedicated to God. What do you believe about this? I mean your society, your movement, your spiritual movement, is dedicated for this kind of people and for these areas, or not? I ask. It's not...
Prabhupāda: For all.
Prabhupāda: And it is being effective. It is being effective. In our group we find Africans, Americans, Indians, Europeans, Canadians, Japanese, Chinese, everyone.
Monsignor Verrozano: And what concern the Buddhist countries where God is not so, at least, the prayers or the name of God is not so well known. I am just coming from Bangkok where we had a meeting with Buddhist monks of the (indistinct), and have you also some movement, some kind of action to spread love of God to (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: Well, Buddhists, they do not believe in God.
Cardinal and Monsignor Verrozano: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So according to our Vedic conception, Buddhist philosophy is atheistic philosophy.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Theoretically yes, but practically, do you think they are atheistic, practically? Because...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Our... Yes. Theoretically atheistic, but because they believe in Lord Buddha, they are theistic. Because we accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Are you welcome in Japan? People are interested, eh?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Recently some of our preachers, they have collected fifty-thousand dollars from the Japanese people. They wanted to contribute me for my Vṛndāvana temple, but the Japanese government will not allow to let the money go out. He wrote me. And I have seen personally, when I went... I went to Japan three, four times. These Japanese boys and girls, they are as good as these American, Europeans boys. And that is my practical... Or they, they are my students. They offer me respect so much. The Japanese boys, without being my students, they offer the same respect. So I thought that Japan is very good. Everywhere. That I told you already, that the love of Godhead is dormant in everyone. It doesn't matter what he is. It is the process to awaken that love of Godhead: That is first-class religion. The matter is already there. Simply we have to awaken. And now, that process which awakens very quickly, that is first-class religion. That is the first... And besides that, really understanding of God is very rarely found.
Prabhupāda: That is the essence of religion, to know God and to love Him. That's all.
M. Roche-dieu: Yes. Love God and love the man too.
Prabhupāda: Why man? Simply love God; then you will love everyone. Because God is the center, God is the father of everyone, so if you love the father, automatically you love the sons. It is not required that you simply love this son and not that son. That is not love of Godhead. "I love human being but I do not love the poor animals. Send them to the slaughterhouse." This is not love of God. So in the Bhagavad-gītā, you will find, God says,
- sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
- mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ
- tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir
- ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
- (BG 14.4)
So God is the Supreme Father. It is not that He is father of the human being. He is father of the animals, He is father of the trees, He is father of the animals...
M. Roche-dieu: Living being.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The father is God, and they are all sons. But they have, they have been given different types of dress according to karma. So when actually one loves God, he loves all of them as brothers, not that only human being. That is not love of God. Then he does not know what is God. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll not find a single sentence where it is recommended that "Only love the human being." There is no such thing.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Frenchman: (French)
Yogeśvara: He's asking, "Well, that's all right. But this love that we have for God, only man can give it. An animal can't love God. A tree can't love God."
Prabhupāda: But you can love animal. You are not animal. Animal... Just like we are discussing about theosophy because we are grown up, and the child, he cannot understand. That does not mean we shall be unkind to the children. He may be ignorant, the animal may be ignorant, but I am not ignorant. How can I kill the animal?
Guru-gaurāṅga: Given the fact that all others, they are loving God too, the same principle, Christianity...
Prabhupāda: No, symptoms must be there. If you love God, then you should love everything of God. You cannot distinguish that "These are human beings. They should be given service, and the animals should be sent to the slaughterhouse." That is not love of God. That means he does not know what is God. He is still unaware of God. Just like father. Father has got ten sons. Out of them, one is very intelligent or two are very intelligent; others are fools. And if the intelligent sons propose to the father, "Father, these are useless sons. Let me kill," will the father agree? So God is father of all living entities. He is providing food for the animal, for the man, because He is father. There is, in the jungle of Africa elephants. They are eating at a time hundred kilos. The father is providing. And the ant, a small ant, is eating one grain of sugar. He is providing. Within the hole of your room there are millions of ants. The father is providing food for them. That is God. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one is providing all necessities of life to everyone, all living entities. That is God. So if I know God, then I can know also that all of them are sons of God and God is providing all their necessities of life. What right I have got to kill them?
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you do not know what is love. You love somebody and you kill others.
M. Roche-dieu: No, no.
Prabhupāda: That is not love. If you love God, then you will love all His sons.
Yogeśvara: Here's that verse.
Prabhupāda: Here is the verse.
Yogeśvara:
- vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
- brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
- śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
- paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
- (BG 5.18)
Prabhupāda: So at least in the human society, everyone must have understanding of God, that is expected. It is not expected in the society of cats and dogs because they are animals. The human being, dharmasya glāniḥ, there is dharma, some sort of religious system. And religious system means to understand God. That's all. Just like to become a lawyer means to understand the laws of the state. Similarly, religious system means the process by which one can understand God. And that is the summary of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religious system which trains the followers to understand God and love Him. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir, ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). If somebody says, "Oh, it is a very great thing to understand God and to love Him," they are thinking it is not possible. No. The answer is ahaituky apratihatā. It can be learned by anyone. It is not checked by any material condition. If one wants to know what is God and to love Him, the path is open for everyone. It does not require high intelligence, high education, high culture. No. Anyone. The process is śravaṇam, the beginning. One has to hear. One may be fool number one, it doesn't matter. No education, it doesn't matter. Poor, doesn't matter. Black, doesn't matter. White, doesn't matter. You try to hear. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). Therefore, Vedic injunction is in order to know, go to the bona fide guru and hear. Ādau gurv-āśrayam, sad-dharma pṛcchāt. So even one has no experience, if he goes to the experienced man, experienced person, then you can understand and you can love God, and that is perfection of life.
Prabhupāda: So we have to pluck out the material eyes. Then you'll see that it is all right. First of all, let me pluck out your material eyes. Then you'll see. Therefore it is said, premāñjana-cchurita: "Eyes with love of Godhead." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He saw Jagannātha Deity, Jagannātha Deity's not very beautiful. But immediately He saw Kṛṣṇa and fainted. You have to make that eyes, then you'll see. So your present eye have to be plucked out. Then you'll see. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Who is that statue? You are...?
Paramahaṁsa: It's a decoration.
Bhagavān: Where do we go?
Paramahaṁsa: There's a promenade around the fountain.
Prabhupāda: So they have made this art. Suppose a real man and woman stands here. Will it be considered as art or criminal?
Paramahaṁsa: It would be considered criminal to them.
Prabhupāda: Then? Their art is criminal.
Prabhupāda: Because the church could not help them in understanding God. The Christian church has no idea what is God. Therefore there is no name of God. Actually, they have no idea about God. Is there?
Devotee: I was raised up a very strict Catholic, going through Catholic school till I was fifteen years old, but I could not... They were trying to teach love of God, but I could not see that they were also loving God. Even the head priest, he was found having illicit sex relationships with one of the young nuns, and she became pregnant by that and he had to leave. They quietly sent him away without anybody knowing, but later on it came out.
Prabhupāda: That is going on everywhere.
Devotee: And I saw, "What is the point? They are not even loving God." They were teaching loving God, but I could not see it.
Prabhupāda: He said that Vivekananda was doing that. You said? Just tell him.
Prabhupāda: So they are all nice gentlemen and ladies. It is...
Jyotirmayī: And very interesting too, that the first question, one of the first questions that Pere Fransad asked me, was: "Do you believe in love of God, and that God is a person? Some people say that God is not a person, and we say God is a person."
Bhagavān: So you can translate in French so that they can understand.
Prabhupāda: At least Christians cannot believe in impersonal God.
Jyotirmayī: What?
Prabhupāda: Christians, they cannot say that God is impersonal. (French) Because, because Christ is son of God. So the son is person. How the Father can be imperson? And in the Bible it is said, "There was word in the beginning." That is God's word. So if one has a word, then He's a person. Word comes from the tongue and mouth. As soon as there is word, background is tongue and mouth. And then... The Christians pray in the church, "Oh, God, give us our daily bread." So God has got ear so that He will hear and supply. But His personality, His word, His hearing, they're all transcendental, nonmaterial.
Prabhupāda: Others, if they try for the same thing, then it is alright. Because that type of religion, that system of religion, is first-class which teaches people to come to the platform of God consciousness, to love God, then that is first-class religious system. It doesn't matter what is the designation. (indistinct)
Guest: The process of change of consciousness which is actually taking place in you under many influences, I think.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: Under many influences.
Prabhupāda: No, influence should be only Kṛṣṇa or God. Kṛṣṇa, when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, God, but they have no clear idea what is God. How does He speak, how does He act. Where does He live. What is His form. What is his color. Nobody knows. Ask any religious people, "Do you know about all these?" (tape too faint to hear) (indistinct) If they think about it at all. First of all, generally they think of something impersonal or void. The Buddhists they think God is zero. And others they think God has no form. So, two classes. The Hindus they think God has not particular form, (indistinct). And you can imagine any of them(?) That is Śaṅkara. The pañcopāsanā. But still Śaṅkara is very careful. He has given five particular forms—the Goddess Durgā, Lord Viṣṇu, Lord Siva, the sun.
Prabhupāda: We are limited, but God is not limited. Unlimited. And because He is unlimited, therefore He has got unlimited names, not one or two but unlimited names. There is a Sanskrit book, Aṣṭottara-sahasra. There are 1,008 names of God. So 1,008 is also limited, but because we are limited, the God's names are given to us as far as we can understand. Otherwise He has got unlimited potencies, unlimited names. And each and every name is God because He is absolute. (German)
Pater Emmanuel: Allow you a question? You know that we Christians are also preaching the love of God, and we seek to fulfill the love of God and to serve God with all our heart and soul. And what different from your movement who will the same? And why do you send your disciples in these Christian countries to preach the love of God when the gospel of Jesus Christ is also preaching the love of God, God love?
Prabhupāda: But if you don't mind, I can say that the Christians are not obeying the orders of God. Do you agree or not?
Pater Emmanuel: I agree.
Prabhupāda: Then where is love? If you disobey the orders of God, then where is your love? Therefore we have come here to teach them to love God. If you love me, you cannot disobey me. And if you disobey me, that love is not real.
Prabhupāda: (aside) You can sit on the chair if you like.
Guest: No, I like to sit, thank you.
Prabhupāda: Not only Christianity, everywhere, the people now do not love God, but they love dog. Yes. Therefore this movement is required, awakening of God consciousness. Not the Christians, they are only to be accused, but Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They are simply stamp, but no obedience to God. This is the position.
Pater Emmanuel: Can you say exactly the point where Christians are not obedient. Do you see any points here by your visit to the Christian countries and you like to say for us? It is a help for us to say exactly the point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The first point is that your commandment is "Thou shalt not kill," and you are maintaining regularly slaughterhouse. The first commandment is disobeyed. Do you agree or not?
Pater Emmanuel: Um...
Prabhupāda: Or in my front the animals are being kept for being killed.
Prabhupāda: The first commandment is "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing. The first point is disobedient. Then where is love of God?
Pater Emmanuel: (German) It is in the relation of man. "Don't kill," it says, the Christianity understands...
Prabhupāda: Why they understand like that? That means that Lord Christ was not sufficiently educated to use the right word, "murder"? Does it mean so? There are two words, killing and murder. Murder is especially meant for the human being. So do you think that Christ was not learned enough to use the word murder instead of "killing"? "Killing" means any kind of killing, especially animal killing. Otherwise you should have frankly openly used the word, "Thou shall not murder." Even if it is meant like that, so does it mean that he was preaching amongst the murderers? They are very first-class men? They are all murderers? Therefore the injunction. This kind of interpretation does not appeal to us.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are also chanting Christ or Kṛṣṇa, the same thing. So let us join to together and chant. If you have got objection to chant Kṛṣṇa, you chant Christ or Christo. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ. He says that God has got many multi names. Any one of them you chant because each and every name has the same potency as God the person, because His name and He, there is no difference. And if we become designationless, if we give up these titles, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," and simply chant God's name, then we become on the spiritual platform immediately, without any discrimination that "Here is Hindu, here is Muslim, here is Christian, here is white, here is black," that. We are preaching that human form of life is meant for God realization or to learn how to love God. That is real business of human being. So either do it as a Christian or as a Muslim or as a Hindu, it doesn't matter. But do this business.
Prabhupāda: I said that if one engages himself in the service of the Lord some way or other, then the revelation, the original dormant God consciousness and love of God, becomes revived. Exactly in the same way: the psychiatrists, they treat the crazy fellow by talking, talking, talking some way. So if we talk of Kṛṣṇa, then the original Kṛṣṇa consciousness is revived. That is also stated. You find out in the Bhāgavata, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi... (SB 1.2.17). Yes, purport. So this is very important thing. Therefore we have published so many books about Kṛṣṇa—to hear. Hearing, hearing, hearing, and... Just like man is sleeping. You talk loudly, and he will be awakened. Yes. That's it.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Others, if they try for the same thing, then it is all right, because that type of religion or that system of religion is first-class which teaches for this thing, that "Come to platform of God consciousness and love God." Then that is first-class system of religion. It doesn't matter what is the designation. But where is that happening?
Ambassador: The process of change of consciousness which is actually taking place in the world under many influences, I think...
Prabhupāda: No. The influence should be only Kṛṣṇa, or God. Kṛṣṇa, when we speak of "Kṛṣṇa"—God. But they have no clear idea what is God. How does He speak, how does He act, where does He live, what is His form, what is His qualities—nobody knows. Ask any religious people, "Do you know about all this, about God?" They do not know. What do you think, Atreya? Have they any clear conception of God? They imagine something. If they think of God at all... First of all, generally they think of impersonal or void. Just like the Buddhists. They think God is zero. And others, they think that God has no form. The two classes. The Hindus they think, "Yes, God has no particular form, but He has got many forms. And you can imagine any one of them." That is Śaṅkara, the pañcopāsana. But still, Śaṅkara is very careful.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's it. Then the ultimate goal is how to love God.
Yoga student: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is very good. That is our philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Premā pumārtho mahān. This is the highest goal of life, how one has developed his love for God. And Bhāgavata says, "That is first-class religion which trains the followers how to love God and serve Him." That is first-class religion. Then Islam is Vaiṣṇava dharma in a crude form like the Christian. So we can amalgamate them all if they are sane men. I suggested that there are many churches vacant. If they give us these churches we shall install Deity—Gaurasundara, Nitāi-Gaura and Pañca-tattva—and along with them we shall worship Lord Jesus Christ also. Similarly, we can do Muhammad. There is no harm. But they are against this Deity worship, eh? Mohammedans?
Yoga student: Yes, they are. That sort of expression. And yet, amongst the Sufi poets...
Prabhupāda: Deity is also expression, form is also expression, but they do not understand it.
Prabhupāda: Then the ultimate goal is how to love God.
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is our philosophy. sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Premā pumartho mahān. This is the highest goal of life, how one has developed his love for God. And Bhāgavata says that is first-class religion which trains the followers how to love God and serve Him. That is first-class religion. Then Islam is Vaisnalam in crude form, like the Christians (indistinct) if they are sane man. I suggested that there are many churches vacant, if they give us these churches, we shall install Deity, Gaurasundara, Nitāi-Gaura and Pañca-tattva, and along with them we can worship Jesus Christ. Similarly, we can do Mohammed. But they are against this Deity worship. Yes?
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Where is the sense of God there?
Carol: I only do it for a living. The other side of me is something...
Prabhupāda: No. I mean to say the anthropology it is a big scientific department. Where is the understanding of God there?
Carol: I find it difficult to reconcile the love of God with actually doing something like this.
Prabhupāda: Then how you are going to speculate on anthropology?
Carol: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: If you cannot adjust, how you are wasting your time in the science, anthropology? It is a false science.
Carol: I'm waiting to be led into something which is good.
Prabhupāda: There is no meaning.
Prabhupāda: That is not Christ has said?
Śrutakīrti: Well, Christ enforced it.
Paramahaṁsa: It was accepted by him as one of the rules.
Śrutakīrti: Christ's greatest commandment was to love God above all things. So if one is to love God, one must follow His instructions.
Prabhupāda: Who is following the instructions?
Śrutakīrti: We are.
Prabhupāda: But supposing Christ distributed fish, but did he say that we shall maintain regular slaughterhouse for killing animals?
Prabhupāda: We are chanting. Chanting the holy name of God.
Guest (1): Uh huh.
Devotee: Our whole purpose is to serve God and to revive our love for God.
Guest (1): Sure. That's right. I understand that, and, you know, I'm very broad-minded. I always have said... You know, one time in our Methodist church we had a professor that was giving all religions of the world. And this is rather putting it simply and fast, but it was interesting because of all the different religions, even though they all didn't believe in the divine being, Christ being the son of God, in some cases-there's Buddha and so forth—but they all were preaching about going to the same place, so to speak. And it's peculiar. They all had more or less the Ten Commandments. In other words they all believed in doing the same thing. So that was interesting...
Prabhupāda: But I don't think Christians believe.
John Mize: That the purpose of the human existence is to improve it's moral nature, to reunite ultimately with God, to be pleasing to God. So it's similar in that sense. He apparently disagrees on the origin...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sattva-guṇa. Good character means sattva-guṇa, to become brāhmaṇa and then love God. This is Vedic civilization.
Jayatīrtha: Does he make any description of God? Any explanation?
John Mize: His thesis is that God is an intelligent moral force. But he avoided anthropomorphism by not projecting such properties as anger onto God. But he recognized personality in God. God is a moral intelligence and powerful.
Prabhupāda: So to become angry, that is also qualification of God, to become angry.
John Mize: Is...?
Prabhupāda: To become angry is also qualification of God.
Prabhupāda: It is... Apart from religion, it is social upkeep. It has nothing to do with religion, but it helps religion.
Dr. Crossley: I guess what I really want to know is does it matter what the specific thing is, like not killing a cow or like chanting or are there many specific things that people can do for love of God and for discipline that will serve the same purpose?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The only specific thing is you chant. Then other things will automatically be revealed.
Dr. Crossley: So chanting is necessary.
Prabhupāda: Yes, absolutely.
Dr. Crossley: Nothing else will do as well.
Prabhupāda: No, because at the present moment they are not practical. Suppose the meditation. It is not practical.
Prabhupāda: What did he say?
Brahmānanda: I don't remember exactly, but he stressed the importance of the chanting of the mahā-mantra. He said "It is an important means for God realization, and by doing this, one can achieve love of God, and they are spreading this all over the world."
Prabhupāda: So what do you think? Shall I write? Hm? I have made a draft of letter this night. So you come and see. Let us take a chance. We want actually good for everyone. And this is the only medicine, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. For any problem. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. People are suffering. If her guru has opined like that, then she may take some attention. Then it appears that guru is to some extent nice.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: She gave interview to our men.
Prabhupāda: Training, every training should begin from childhood. Just like you send your boys and girls to school. So any educational system should be begin from childhood.
Reporter (2): What is the secret to learning to love God?
Prabhupāda: Secret of learning God?
Jagadīśa: Learning to love.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The secret—that he must be a first-class man. Otherwise he does not understand what is God, and what to speak of loving Him.
Reporter (3): What is the definition again of a first-class man?
Prabhupāda: First-class man? Where is that Bhagavad-gītā?
Brahmānanda: Bhagavad-gītā, they did not bring.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) What is the nonsense? You are all nonsense. First-class man, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that he should first of all try to..., not try, practice how to control the mind, how to control the senses. Then he must be truthful. He must be very clean, outside and inside. He must be very simple. He must be tolerant. He must be full of knowledge. He must apply knowledge in practical life. And he must believe in God. These are the qualification of the first-class man.
Jayatīrtha: (in car:) It says, "Forgive me if this story is not well-written. I am a woman. My brain weighs less than a man's, and I am not equal in intelligence." So she admits. "His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the seventy-seven year-old founder of the International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, said so Wednesday. The Society is dedicated to peace in the world through love of God and relinquishment of all things material. The Swami spoke seated cross-legged on an expensive looking cushion surrounded by fresh flowers, microphones and burning incense in a conference room he rented at the Sheraton Chicago Hotel. He is in town for a Kṛṣṇa parade at 1:30 p.m., Saturday down State Street in which he will ride on a flower-bedecked float. He then will fly to Philadelphia for more celebration and philosophical chats. He looked occasionally at his gold watch as he explained his life philosophy. His adoring disciple, five men, knelt at his side. 'The MAN,' " capital M-A-N, "he said, 'who loves God, controls his sense, is clean inside and out, is simple and tolerant and uses knowledge he has acquired in practical life...' "
Prabhupāda: Intolerant?
Jayatīrtha: No, "and tolerant." " 'Such MEN,' " capital M-E-N again, "he said, 'are first-class citizens and should be advisors to the world. Second and third-class MEN have not found God and should be administrators and workers.' " Not exactly right.
Prabhupāda: Who teaches these things—how to know God and how to love Him—he is spiritual master. Otherwise bogus, rascal bogus. Sometimes they mislead that "I am God." Poor people, they do not know what is God, and a rascal proposes, "I am God," and they accept it. Just like in your country they elected Nixon president and again drag him. That means they did not know who is really bona fide president, elected somebody, and again they had to business of dragging out. Similarly, people are foolish. Any rascal comes. He says, "I am God." They accept. And again they accept another. This is going on. So one must be serious student to understand what is God and how to love Him. That is religion. Otherwise, it is simply waste of time. That we are teaching. That is the difference between others and our... We are presenting Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the science, how to know Him. The Bhagavad-gītā is there, Bhāgavata is there. Not bogus. Authorized. Therefore this is the only institution which can teach how to know God and how to love Him. Two business. There is no third business. It is not our business to ask God to give us our necessities. We know God gives necessities to everyone, even one who has no religion. Just like cats and dogs. They have no religion. They do not know what is religion. But still, the cats and dogs are supplied with necessities of life. So why we should bother Kṛṣṇa, asking Him, "Give us our daily bread"? He is supplying already. Our business is how to love Him. That is religion. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ atra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstavaṁ vastu vedyam atra (SB 1.1.2). Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ yato bhaktir adhokṣaje: "That is first-class religion which teaches how to love God." And that love—not for any material motive: "God, You give me this. Then I will love." No. Ahaitukī. Love means without any personal profit. If I love God for some profit that is business. That is not love. Ahaituky apratihatā. And such love of God cannot be checked by any material cause. In any condition, one can learn how to love God. It is not conditional, that "I am poor man. How shall I love God? I have got so many things to do." No, it is not like that. Poor, rich or young or old, black or white, there is no impediment. If one wants to love God, he can love God.
Sandy Nixon: Are there different paths that one can learn to love God?
Prabhupāda: No. There is no different.
Sandy Nixon: I mean, are there other spiritual paths... Do all spiritual paths lead to the same end?
Prabhupāda: Spiritual paths are divided into four. Not spiritual. Real spiritual, mixed spiritual. Just like this, "God, give us our daily bread." It is mixed spiritual. One has approached God, God is spiritual, but one is asking for material profit. So this is mixture, matter and spirit. So there are four classes generally known as karmī, fruitive actors, they work for getting some material profit. They are called karmī. Just like all men, you will see, they are working so hard day and night, driving their cars, (makes noise of cars) this way and that way. The purpose is how to get some money. This is called karmī. And then jñānī. Jñānī means he knows that "I am working so hard. Why? The birds, beasts, the elephants, big, big..., eight million different types of..., they are not. They have no business. They have no profession. How they are eating? So why unnecessarily I work so much? Let me know what is the problem of life." So they understand the problem of life is birth, death, old age and disease. And they want to solve it, how to become immortal. So they have conclusion that "If I merge into God's existence, then I become immortal or immune from birth, death, old age and disease." This is called jñānī. And some of them are yogis.
Prabhupāda: This is religion. I have already explained that religion means to become lover of God. That is religion. When there is no love of God, that is not religion. Religion means—I have already explained—to know God and to love Him. So if you do not know what is God, where is the question of loving Him? So that is not religion. It is going on in the name of religion. But religion means to know God and to love Him. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇitām (SB 6.3.19). Can you find out this verse? Give him. You don't find?
Nitai: Yes, 3.19.
Prabhupāda: That is the ultimate goal. If you can learn how to love God, then you become perfect, and all other things automatically come.
Devotee: Prabhupāda, because people are not being taught that, in this country there is a great disease of alcoholism.
Prabhupāda: Not in this country, in every country. Why do you say this country or that country?
Devotee: Well, I was saying about alcoholism in particular.
Prabhupāda: No, that is also in India. That is not uncommon. At least, they are learning, by your grace. (laughter) By imitating the western countries, they are learning everything.
Prabhupāda: Premā pumārtho mahān: The most important thing is how to love God.
Prof. Hopkins: And where of the things that you have written would that come?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prof. Hopkins: Where in the... In the things that you've written, where would that message come through most clearly?
Prabhupāda: In Vedānta philosophy, the most important philosophy.
Brahmānanda: He's asking which one of your books?
Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Brahmānanda: Which of your books do you consider to be the most important?
Prabhupāda: Well, beginning from the First Canto.
Prabhupāda: We are speaking of religion. Religion means to know God and to love God. So does the Christian-Jewish religious system deny this? Then where is the difference? If Christian religion is meant for understanding God and try to love Him, the same thing we are preaching. The same thing, Jewish religion may be preaching. And where is that religion who denies the supremacy of God? What is that religion? Is there any religion in the world who denies the supremacy of God? We say, "Religion means the laws given by God." This is our definition. Therefore we must know what is God, what are His orders, and we must carry out the order and what is the end of carrying out such orders. If we try to understand these three or four things, then we are religious. If there is no attempt to understand what is God and what is His order and how we are acting, what is the goal of our life, then where is religion? That is not religion. Religion means these four principles: What is God, what we are, what is our relationship with God, and act accordingly and achieve the goal of life. This is religion. So any religious system which does not consider all these things, that is not religion. That has been explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kaitavaḥ. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. Religion means these things, wherever these things are there, that is religion, these enquiries. This is the subject matter of Vedānta-sūtra, where it is said, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now the human life is meant for enquiring about the Supreme." So that is religion.
Paramahaṁsa: ...and for all the success of scientific advancement, they have not created any love for God or their fellow man.
Prabhupāda: That is the defect. They should scientifically explain what is Kṛṣṇa. Then their science is perfect. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22), education, tapasya, sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddha-dattayoḥ, charity and gentleness, all good qualities. So kavibhiḥ nirūpito. Kavibhiḥ, big personalities they have decided, yad-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam. If, by their knowledge they can establish vāsudevaḥ sarvam..., Kṛṣṇa is the origin, then their scientific knowledge is perfect. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito. Kavibhiḥ means great learned scholars. They have decided like this, yad-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam, instead of talking all nonsense, "This is this. This is this," if they can scientifically explain that "Kṛṣṇa is the original scientist, and His brain has done this like this, like this..." That is Bhāgavata, who is the original scientist, who is original philosopher, original—everything original. Anādir ādir govindaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Govinda is the origin of everything. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Vāsudeva is the original founder. That is a fact. The origin is Kṛṣṇa, but they do not find it. Now, this sprinkling is being done, water and air. Now, who is the origin of air and water? You have combined together, utilizing as a spray, but who is the origin of air and water? You cannot manufacture air or water. You are taking advantage of it by mixing together, sprinkling, but where is the origin of water and air?
Prabhupāda: Return? All right. (break) ...seen by premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). Unless there is love for God, who can see God? Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu. One who is lover of God, such saintly person, twenty-four hours he sees simply God, nothing else.
Hari-śauri: (break) ...last night, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he was saying that if everything is ultimately spiritual, if one is spiritually advanced, he sees everything as spiritual. Then if everything is spiritual, then we can carry on just doing the same things that we're doing now, because it's all for God.
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa says that "Everything is My energy, but..." Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣu: (BG 9.4) "But I am not there." This is the answer. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's expansion, but not that everything is Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (2): It is also not spiritual.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Indian man (2): The energy is there, but it is not spiritual.
Prabhupāda: No, it is spiritual, but because I do not know Kṛṣṇa, therefore I see material. Just like this microphone. It is being used for Kṛṣṇa; therefore it is spiritual. Actually, originally, it is from Kṛṣṇa. So we are not using these material things. Everything, whatever we using, that is spiritual.
Prabhupāda: Let them say what is there. Then you can talk with them.
Brahmānanda: They say, "I love God. I go to church every... Once a week I go, Sunday morning. I make my prayer. So what more? I have my family. I have my job."
Vāsughoṣa: But I was reading in this National Geographic Magazine, there is one sect of people in New York City, very orthodox following. They don't even go to cinema. When they have free time they are studying the śāstras, their śāstras. They are very strict. They don't even shave their faces because it says, "Do not round the corner of your face." So they have these big beards like this, and their whole life is dedicated like this to reading and... They also sing and dance.
Prabhupāda: That is something good.
Prabhupāda: Now, Crusades, even... If they could expand the ideas of Christian, love of Godhead, that was nice. But that was not the purpose. It is exploitation.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even by force?
Prabhupāda: Yes. By force if you give some good medicine, that is good for him. In my childhood I would not take medicine. Exactly like this, now also. (laughter) So I was given medicine by force in the spoon. Two men will catch me and my mother take me on the lap and then force and I shall take. I never agreed to take any medicine.
Harikeśa: Should we do that now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Then you'll kill me.
Prabhupāda: They are rascals. What is the use? That is advised, prema-maitri kṛpopekṣā, four things. Preacher—there are four things for him. One thing is he should love God. He should make friendship with devotees. He should preach amongst the innocent, and he should kick on the face of the atheist. Upekṣā. "Hut! (laughter) I don't like you." That's all, no business with him. This is preacher. Preacher should love God; preacher should make friendship with devotees; preacher will preach amongst the innocent, poor; and those who are atheist, nonbeliever, kick on his face. Don't care for him. "Go away. Get out." That's all. That much mercy upon them. "Get out, rascal." But sometimes we take the risk of talking with these rascals also. That is our mercy. But according to śāstra, they are to be kicked out. They are not to be taken care of because it is waste of time.
Prabhupāda: That is the proof that everyone is fool. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). First of all... Therefore we have to understand from Bhāgavata that what is real religion. Real religion means love of Godhead. So instead of love of Godhead, the love of doghead is increasing. So where is religion? Everybody should keep a dog and serve him, and where is God?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they think that God is in the other world, so that in this world we can serve our wife and family, and when we go to the other world we'll serve God.
Prabhupāda: Then God is separated from this world. How much imperfect knowledge it is. God has created this world, and He has nothing to do with. Just see. They say God created this world, but He has nothing to do with it.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's a very imperfect understanding.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...you were with Meher Baba?
Harikeśa: No, I was never with Meher Baba. (laughter) I just bring up all these points just so you can defeat them. I was with Maharishi.
Prabhupāda: Maharishi? Oh. You got his mantra? How much you paid for that?
Harikeśa: Thirty-five dollars. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: And what was the mantra?
Harikeśa: "Aing."
Prabhupāda: You do not know; therefore you have to learn. If you want to remain rascal, fool, and still you want to know, that is not possible. You have to know from the real source. Then you'll know. But if you keep yourself in the rascal platform, then how you will know? Just like you have to go to a school to learn things. So how you can learn at home? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You have to go in order to understand that science. So how do you argue, keeping yourself in darkness? In darkness you cannot see anything. "Oh, I do not see anything; therefore there is nothing." Is that very good reason? You are blind, you cannot see the darkness. That is another thing. But things are there. You make your eyes operated and manifest your vision. Then you'll see. Therefore, ajñāna-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayā cakṣur-unmīlitaṁ yena tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ. Everyone is blind, in darkness. He cannot see anything. So one who opens the eyes, jñānāñjana-śalākayā, by the torch of knowledge, he is guru. This is description of guru. If you are blind and have a blind guru, that is no use. Guru means who is not blind. I may be blind. Then that will be effective. This is no reason, "I cannot see." What you are? You can see? You cannot see even the president, and you want to see God without being qualified? This is laymans', rascal's reason, "I cannot see. I do not see." What you are? What you can see? You do not first of all evaluate what is your position, and you want to see something. The formula is there. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). One who has developed love of God is always seeing God. So where is that qualification? You are not lover of God, you are lover of dog, so how you can see God? You can see dog.
Prabhupāda: Parsi, Hindu, Muslim, they will take anyone, provided he teaches you how to love God. Otherwise useless. If you don't get the knowledge how to love God, then it is useless waste of time. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Every time I would say Hare Kṛṣṇa, some of them were lying and have distributed by sticks. (break) ...it is stated that he was seeing everything material as nonsense, avastuvāt. Avastu means no substance. Vastu means substance. And he was surprised how a man can become without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because he was a child, five years old, he was surprised that "How these people, my father and others, they are without Kṛṣṇa consciousness?"
Prabhupāda: But any intelligent man can understand. Any foreigner who will come will understand how India is poverty-stricken by this picture. (?)
Harikeśa: It seems like the strongest preaching point or platform is the presence of a pure soul.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: The presence of a pure soul, someone who is wrapped up actually in love of God, is sufficient.
Prabhupāda: Faithful servant of God. He can preach. He is authorized. He has got the power of attorney. Kṛṣṇa śakti vin nahe nāma pracāra.
Harikeśa: I was thinking on Juhu Beach, these men have been walking by now for four years, and actually none of them have heard you speak, or maybe a few, but now they are all coming and touching your feet.
Akṣayānanda: (break) ...two-year visas now, they must have more faith in you now, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Akṣayānanda: They must have more faith in you now in India because they're giving us two-year visa. Faith must be improving...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Indian man (3): With open eyes, why we cannot do the prayers and the bhakti-yoga? What is the...
Prabhupāda: For the disturbed mind. Those who are settled up, they can see always, open or closed. Premāñjanacchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu viloka. One who has attained that stage, love of God, he can see every, every moment. When you love somebody, a small child, don't you see always, huh? Don't you see? Huh? When you see the child's little sock, immediately you see the child. The shoes, immediately you see the child. Why? Because you are in love with the child. So that stage you have to come, in love with God, then you will see always, twenty-four hours, sadaiva. Sadaiva means twenty-four hours. You see, and you always remain in nirguṇa stage, and always see.
Indian man (3): But in that case, sir, material duties, they are forgotten.
Prabhupāda: No.
Indian man (3): Then how can you avoid that, because conflict takes place.
Prabhupāda: No, it will be, there will be no more material duty. When you wash the shoes of your son, that is love, that is not a shoe washer; you don't remain a shoe washer. You remain in love with your child. Hm? A mother takes care of the child, washes, when he passes stool, that does not mean she becomes maṭharāṇī (sweeper woman). Maṭharāṇī is material. But when the mother out of love washes the child, she is not maṭharāṇī, she is Rādhārāṇī. (everyone laughs) And if you conclude, "Ah, she is washing the stool of the son. She is maṭharānī," that is your mistake. She remains Rādhārāṇī. Just like Mother Yaśodā is binding Kṛṣṇa, that does not mean that His supremacy is lost.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So then these question do not arise at all, because he does not know what are sins and what are to be avoided and how to love God. These things required. There is a process. Just like if you want to love a girl or a girl wants to love you, there is a process. Unless there is no love. If you do not follow the process.... Suppose.... These are the general principles. If you love somebody you give something, some presentation. That you have given me, the presentation. It is a question of love. You are not giving to anyone, but you have got some love. So you give something to God. The first question of love is that "What you are giving to God?"
Guest (2): What am I giving to God?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So love of God means six things. This is the difference between other literature and Vedic literature. Here it is said, "love of God," but in the Vedic literature you will find the process of love,
- śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ
- smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam
- arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ
- sakhyam ātma-nivedanam
- (SB 7.5.23)
Nine different processes. First of all you should hear about the glories of God, śravaṇam. Then you should preach the glories of God. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. You should always remember God, smaraṇam. Pāda-sevanam: you should worship the Lord by worshiping, giving service to His lotus feet. But if God is imperson, where is feet? And if God is no form, then how you can remember Him?
Guest (2): We believe God has form.
Prabhupāda: Who? Who delivers this message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if from the government some very confidential secretary comes, you have to receive him just like the president, to please him. So this is the qualification of spiritual master, that he delivers things at it is. He does not make any adulteration. Then he is real representative, and he is to be accepted as God Himself. That is the process. Because here it is said na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu (BG 18.69). You have got a son, and if I love the son.... There is an English word: "If you love me, love my dog." So the spiritual master is dog-God. He's dog of God, therefore he's dog-God. He's to be worshiped. He's the pet dog of God. Therefore if you love the dog, you love God. Spiritual master will not claim that "I am God," but it is our duty, because the dog is pet.... Here it is said, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu (BG 18.69). You have to love that dog. Then you'll get perfection. This is the secret.
Prabhupāda: (still laughing) One may try to leave Him, but He is not going to leave you. Once come, "No sir, you cannot go out." Just like our Ajāmila. He was devotee in the beginning, and later on, by bad association of prostitute, he fell, but Kṛṣṇa took him at the end. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Kṛṣṇa gave him chance to give him a son. He kept the son's name Nārāyaṇa. So on account of affection of the son, he was chanting, "Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa." Just Kṛṣṇa is so kind that (laughs) "All right, this rascal is going out of My hand. All right, give him a child, Nārāyaṇa. He will chant, 'Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa,' and that will be his credit." Ajñāta-sukṛti. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. Sukṛti, pious activities, of many millions of birth is not equal to love of Godhead. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyaṁ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā-matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate: "Purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness anywhere it is available." What is the price? Tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam: "Only greediness, hankering. That is the price." "Oh, that I have got." "No, no. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. You cannot obtain this price even after millions of births' pious activities." All right.
Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think Bhakta Gene wants to know if you recognize that there are any great devotees in that Christian tradition. Do we recognize that any of those Christian saints were great devotees? Did they develop love of God? Or what's the comparison? Prabhupāda: I do not know, I have not studied Christianity. But if anyone has developed love, that is perfection. So there is not question of my knowing or not knowing. If actually one has developed love for God, he's perfect. That's all. Bhakta Gene: This is what prompted me to ask my first question, Your Grace. What has brought me here has been my search... Prabhupāda: No, it is God's desire that you are sincere, you have come. Now utilize the association and the opportunity, your life will be successful. We have got enough books to convince you about this science.
Bhakta Gene: I am convinced.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why one should be after mysticism? What is the benefit?
Bhakta Gene: It was the mystics that brought me here. This was the thing. It was their love of God...
Prabhupāda: Where is mystic? We don't show any mystic.
Bhakta Gene: No. The term, we're having trouble with the term. The term "mystic" was applied to transcendentalists within the church to show a difference between them and the traditionalists. The traditionalists were those who paid attention to the script.
Prabhupāda: What do you mean by traditionalist?
Bhakta Gene: The traditionalists are strictly the old Roman Catholic traditionalists.
Prabhupāda: No, apart from Roman or, what do you mean by traditionalist?
Bhakta Gene: Those who abided by tradition rather than the scriptures.
Prabhupāda: Oh, scripture, they have no respect for scripture?
Bhakta Gene: Well, they had respect for scriptures, but they had more respect for tradition. Ritualistic laws.
Prabhupāda: What is the tradition?
Satsvarūpa: The way the church would apply the ritual rather than actually trying to...
Prabhupāda: But that is required. That is required. Just like we are worshiping the Deity. This is traditional. From time immemorial. So how you can reject? This is the way. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). That is bhakti way.
- bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
- sarva-loka-maheśvaram
- suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
- jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
- (BG 5.29)
So the teachings are there, the process is there, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu is practical demonstration of the teachings. That is detected by Rūpa Gosvāmī. Namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). So we require kṛṣṇa-prema, love of God. So "You are so munificent that You are giving Kṛṣṇa-prema. Kṛṣṇāya, You are Kṛṣṇa, we understand that You are Kṛṣṇa. You are personally giving kṛṣṇa-prema."
Prabhupāda: Pure life, village—doesn't matter village or city. If you become devotee, then pure life. It is not that because one is living in city, therefore he's polluted, one is living in village, no. Unless one becomes devotee, there is no question of becoming good.
Indian man (1): Prabhupāda, there's a very important question in my mind all the time. How a Godbrother should treat the Godbrother with great (indistinct) to produce more love of Godhead and to (indistinct) in them?
Prabhupāda: You show example. If other Godbrother is not treating you well, you treat him well. Then it will be right. Why you should deviate, that "This Godbrother is not treating me well, so I shall do also"? Āpani ācari' prabhu jīvera. You treat well. You show the example how to treat his Godbrother.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then he might say "But I love God."
Prabhupāda: He might say, that is another thing. The standard is this. He may say-he's a rascal, he can say so many nonsense. That is not the standard. He says that "God is talking with me." So I have to see whether he's a candidate with whom God can talk. The formula is teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10). "One who is twenty-four-hours engaged in My service with love and faith, God talks with him." So first of all see whether he's twenty-four-hours engaged in God's service with love and faith. Then you can understand, "Yes, God is talking with him." But he has no preliminary qualification, if he says "I can talk with God," he's a nonsense. That means because you are a nonsense you are talking about him that God talks with him. You do not know with whom God talks. So you are nonsense also. You accept him, "Yes, he may be talking with God." How he can talk? That means you are also nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks. Why do you accept such proposition? If some store keeper says "I have passed M.A., L.L.D.," and I have to accept that? You must know with whom God talks. That means you are nonsense. You are accepting nonsensically. And the person who is constantly engaged in God's service, unless he's trained up by a spiritual master, how can he be engaged? So without spiritual master, one cannot be engaged in devotional service, and without devotional service, nobody's eligible to talk with God.
Prabhupāda: So these people, these mahājanas, they know what is the principles of religion. Religion means bhagavata-dharma, to understand God and our relationship with God. That is religion. You may call it Hindu religion or Muslim religion or Christian religion, but real religion is that which teaches how to love God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). If by following the religious system, you come to the platform of loving God, then your religious system is perfect. Otherwise it is a simply waste of time, bogus religion, without conception of God. So unless one understands what is God and what He says, and we have to abide by that order, then we are religious and there is religion and there is God, there is everything complete.
Prabhupāda: One religion is there already, that how to love God. This is one religion. Will the Christian say, "No. We don't want to love God"? Will the Christians say? Will the Mohammedans say, "No, no. We don't want to love God"? So religion means how to love God, and any religion which teaches how to love God, that is perfect. It doesn't matter whether he's Christian or Muslim or Hindu. It doesn't matter. You have to be educated to take your degree. It doesn't matter from which college you take degree. Similarly, religion means you have to learn how to love God. If you have no love for God, it is all useless. That is not religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Sākṣād, Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." You cannot surrender until you love. You are surrendered to me, I am also an Indian. Because you have love for me, therefore there is surrender. If I say that "You die," you'll die. Why? Because you love me. So when there will be surrender? Unless one loves God. Unless that platform is not there, that "I love you, I can sacrifice everything for you." That is on the the basic principle of love. Therefore that religion is perfect which teaches the followers how to love God. This is religious principle. So let everyone come to this platform, how to love God. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are teaching nothing, but training them how to love God, how they can sacrifice everything for God. So that is religion. Otherwise a bogus waste of time, simply following the ritualistic ceremonies. That is not religion. That is superfluous.
Prabhupāda: But we have to see by the result. The result is... Only platform, that only platform, that is decided... Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. That is actually religion. How? Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. If one has learned how to love God. If there is no love of God, then what is the use of claiming that this is the only platform? Where is the sign of love of Godhead? That is to be seen. Simply if you say... Everyone will say, "This, my, this property is the best, or my understanding is..." But there must be practical proof. The practical proof-say how to love God, what is the process of loving God? If you do not know your relationship with God and other's relationship with God, then how you know God? That is lacking. Nobody can give clear conception of God. Can the Christians give? Then where is love of God? If you have no understanding of what is God, where is the question of love? Love is not fictitious. You cannot love air. You love a person, a beautiful person, a beautiful woman. If you say, "I love air. I love the sky..." Where there is question of love?There must be a person. So who is that person we want to love? But they have no personal conception of God, neither they can describe the personal beauty, capacity, strength, ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇaḥ. There is no such description. So they have got the conception of God, but actually they do not know what is God. But religion means you must know God and love Him. That is religion. That is first class religion. Is that clear or not?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Are these actually the tangible signs by which one can judge what is real religion?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Real religion is how to love God. And love cannot be done without knowing the person whom you love. That is the criterion, test. So if you have no conception, God, His personality, then how you'll love? Where is the question of love? Love is something tangible. It is not fictitious. So we accept, Kṛṣṇa conscious people, Kṛṣṇa is God, and we are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. And we are making progress. Just see our behavior and other persons behavior and judge. Hm? What do you think?
Kulādri: We had one priest who came. He was discussing with Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. He did not know what God looked like, he never gave anything, never talked about God, but he said he loved God.
Prabhupāda: Then? What kind of love it is?
Kulādri: Nor did he say his people ever came to church. He said, "At best they come once a week." He said that's all that is necessary.
Prabhupāda: Well, love does not mean that you come once in a week at my house. Love means you come to my house, give me some presentation, and take something from me. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva ṣaḍ-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam. Love means if you love somebody, then you must give him something, you must accept something from him. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti. You must disclose your mind to him and he should disclose his mind to you. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati, and bhuṅkte bhojayate. If you love somebody, you give him something eatable and whatever eatable he offers you accept.
Prabhupāda: Well, love does not mean that you come once in a week at my house. Love means you come to my house, give me some presentation, and take something from me. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva ṣaḍ-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam. Love means if you love somebody, then you must give him something, you must accept something from him. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti. You must disclose your mind to him and he should disclose his mind to you. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati, and bhuṅkte bhojayate. If you love somebody, you give him something eatable and whatever eatable he offers you accept. These six kinds of exchange makes love. But if you do not know the person, the boy or the girl, then where is the question of love? Love begins... If you love some girl, if you love some boy, then you give something, some presentation, and he gives you some presentation. That develops love. You give something to eat and whatever he gives you to eat, you eat. You disclose your mind, "My dear such and such, I love you. This is my ambition." He dis... These are the exchange of love. So if there is no persons to person meeting, where is the question of love? That is not love. If I love somebody and weekly I visit that house, "This is the house," that's all. Where is the exchange of love? Love means there is exchange. If you love somebody, if you have not given anything to that somebody, neither you have taken something from him, where is the love? Is that love? Means imperfect knowledge. You love... The conclusion is religion means to love God, and to love God means you must know who is God.
Prabhupāda: If you keep him in the ignorant platform, then what is the benefit of making a Hindu Muslim or Muslim Hindu? That was going on, "holy war," between Christians and the Muslims. Because both of them will die. (chuckles) And they are engaged in holy war. War, but "holy war." "Holy impiety." Artificial change of "ism" will not help. One must know the philosophy of life. One must know what is God. One must learn how to love God. That is real life.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is one more question, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Question 21. "Are changes visible in Hinduism in its doctrinal content, mode of individual and collective worship as a result of Hinduism's contact with the West?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are worshiping... This is... First of all, you must forget that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not Hinduism. It is Vaiṣṇavism. Vaiṣṇava means Viṣṇu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and one who loves Viṣṇu or loves God, he is Vaiṣṇava. So Hinduism is not like that. Present conception of Hinduism, they have got so many demigods. Demigods are there in the Vedas, but demigod worshipers, they are all materialistic persons.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are worshiping... This is... First of all, you must forget that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not Hinduism. It is Vaiṣṇavism. Vaiṣṇava means Viṣṇu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and one who loves Viṣṇu or loves God, he is Vaiṣṇava. So Hinduism is not like that. Present conception of Hinduism, they have got so many demigods. Demigods are there in the Vedas, but demigod worshipers, they are all materialistic persons. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajanti anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). Those who are worshiper of demigods, they are lusty. Kāmuka. And the kāmuka platform is material world, lusty. Everyone is trying to enjoy sense gratification. So demigod worship is for sense gratification. If you worship Durga, then you pray, "Mother Durga, give me name, fame, wealth, good wife, and so on, so on." Dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpavati-bhāryaṁ dehi. Simply demanding for sense gratification. So that is not love of Godhead. That is to select one agent of God and exact from him as much as you can for your sense gratification. That is not recommended in the Vedic religion. Vedic religion, although there are demigods, but the ultimate is oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. Those who are sūraya, actually advanced, they see to the Viṣṇu paramaṁ padam. Viṣṇor aradhanaṁ param. The worship of Viṣṇu is the supreme worship. So actually everyone should be worshiper of Viṣṇu. And that is Vaiṣṇavism. So Vaiṣṇavism means for everyone or sanātana dharma. That I have already explained. The human.... The living entity is sanātana. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-loke sanātana (BG 15.7). He is sanātana. God is sanātana. The exchange between God and the living entity is called sanātana-dharma or Vaiṣṇavism. So we are teaching that. We are not teaching Hinduism, Muslimism, Christianism. We are teaching how to love God. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Bhakti means yes, exchange of love between God and the individual soul.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This becomes awaking of the spiritual platform. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is gradually to purify one, because that natural loving propensity is there. Our contention, and practically we are experiencing it, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is natural way of life. It's not artificial imposition. Rather in this present materialistic way of life, so many artificial standards and impositions have been put upon us. We can see that because culture is always changing. One year this is right to do, the next year that's right. Everything is simply mental concoction. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process is eternal, it's never changed. We have history from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. For millions and millions of years people have been engaged in the very same process that we're following: of chanting the holy names, worshiping the Deity in the temple, taking prasādam, association with saintly persons. The very same process, it hasn't changed. And the very same sentiment of love of God is being awakened naturally. So our contention is that the love is simply misdirected. It simply has to be redirected towards Kṛṣṇa, and the spiritual master, he does this. He takes our energy, our love, our intelligence, our everything and directs it towards Kṛṣṇa. And as a result, you become purified. A very natural process. Just like we have a propensity to love so rather than waste our love on the temporary forms of the material world, because they're all perishable. Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api (SB 2.1.4). First of all we love the body, deha. And apatya, we love the family members, the sons, kalatra, we love our wife, ādiṣu we like our community, nation, so many things. But all of these things, they're temporary. They won't last, they can't endure. So all of our love practically is being wasted. It's stolen.
Prabhupāda: There is an example. In a water tank you throw one stone. It becomes a circle. And the circle expands, expands, expands unless the circle comes to the shore. Similarly our loving affair begins from personal self to family, from family to society, community, nation, international. But still, it is imperfect unless the circle reaches to the lotus feet of God. Then it is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Here, any loving affairs, that is more or less lusty. A man or woman love each other with some desire, not without desire.
Prabhupāda: There is an example. In a water tank you throw one stone. It becomes a circle. And the circle expands, expands, expands unless the circle comes to the shore. Similarly our loving affair begins from personal self to family, from family to society, community, nation, international. But still, it is imperfect unless the circle reaches to the lotus feet of God. Then it is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Here, any loving affairs, that is more or less lusty. A man or woman love each other with some desire, not without desire. That desire is sense gratification. But actually that is lust not love. Pure love can be exchanged in relationship with God. Here there are temporary... A boy, a girl or a man, a woman in relationship of love but it breaks as soon as the lusty desire is not fulfilled. So here there is no question of love. It is all lusty desire. Real love can be achieved when it is exchanged with Kṛṣṇa or God. Premā pum-artho mahān, that is the recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is the highest (indistinct) when we come on the loving platform with God, then we are satisfied. Big, big political leaders in our country like Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country so much. But the result was that he was killed by his own men, by his country men. But this is not possible when the love is exchanged between God. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31), a little love for God can save you from the greatest danger of life. That is real love. So if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love with everyone.
Satsvarūpa: This is Lord Caitanya. He wrote only eight verses about all this literature. Then there is files and volumes and volumes about love of God. So in this Śikṣāṣṭakam, eight verses, the last verse is translated as, He prays: "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He will always remain as such, even if He handles me roughly in His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, and He will remain my worshipable Lord unconditionally." So this is just the opposite, this is pure love, just the opposite of the, what Śrīla Prabhupāda is explaining that in this material world love is based on some desire that actually becomes a kind of business that "I love you if you will respond in this way." What to speak of someone saying that "I love you, even if you act as a debauch. You don't have to be faithful, that's... You can do as you like in your own way, but my declaration is that I simply want to serve You and You'll always be my worshipable object." So love should be like that, otherwise it is simply business that I will give you the product if you give me the money. But the lover is the living being...
Prabhupāda: You shall not expect anything in return. That is real love. Just like this mother is loving child, expecting anything—no, not expecting any return. But she still she gives service. So that is as a little sample of pure love. But here also some... When the child is grown up, if the child is not obedient, the mother practically withdraws love. But in the spiritual world, unconditionally love is there. As it is explained, āśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām. Marma-hatām: (CC Antya 20.47) whatever you do, I don't mind that but still I love you. That is pure love.
Prabhupāda: This, this loving affair with the mother and the son is a perverted reflection of that pure love.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think he's asking a question also that sometimes comes up, that if one loves in this material love, for example one loves a child, or loves humanity, does this help to develop love of God?
Prabhupāda: No. But if you love God. It helps to love the human beings.
Guest (1): I see, it's the other way!
Prabhupāda: Just like if you supply food to the stomach, it helps the eye sight, but if you supply food to the eyes then you become blind. (everybody laughs)
Mike Robinson: Can you tell me from your own experience some of these different stages you've been through.
Prabhupāda: Yes, first stage is that you are inquisitively trying to understand. This is the first stage. This is called śraddha, that you have got some faith, "What is this movement? Let me study." This is the beginning. Then, if you are serious, then those who are cultivating this knowledge, you mix with them, try to understand how they are feeling. Then you'll feel, "Why not become one of them?" Then when you become one of them, then all your misgivings go away. And then you become more faithful and you, then you get a taste. Why these boys are not going to see the cinema? They can go-other boys are going. They never ask me. Neither they would like to see even. They hate. Their taste is different. Why they do not eat meat, go to the restaurant? Their taste has changed. In this way you make progress. Firm faith, taste is changed, then God-realization, then love of Godhead, the perfection. That is wanted, love of Godhead. That is first-class religion. Not that ritualistic ceremony, "I believe," "This belief." That is not religion; that is cheating. Really when you develop your love for God, that is perfection of religion.
Prabhupāda: Not capitalistic. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. They'll have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa, they are prepared to do anything. That is philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first class, Vaiṣṇava. Yenātmā suprasīdati. Who knows this verse? Find out this verse.
Bhagavān: Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo (SB 1.2.6). First Canto. "The first-class occupation is that which brings love of God. When uninterested, unmotivated, it brings satisfaction."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Who will understand this philosophy?
Harikeśa:
- sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo
- yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
- ahaituky apratihatā
- yayātmā suprasīdati
- (SB 1.2.6)
"The supreme occupation, dharma, for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self."
Prabhupāda: So the communist teaching that "You love Lenin," and the capitalist teaching that "You love Washington," so nobody's satisfied. Unless the love comes to Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of satisfied.
Nava-yauvana: Dharma is for the envious?
Prabhupāda: Yes, so-called dharmas. Just like we have created so many dharma, Hindu dharma, Muslim dharma, Christian dharma. They are so-called. They are not dharmas. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharma means what is given to you by the Supreme Lord, that is dharma. Otherwise, if you manufacture some ritualistic ceremonies, some formulas, some dogmas, that is cheating. That is not religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. That is first-class religion. What is that? Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Wherefrom you learn how to love God. If you learn, "I believe this," "I believe that," "This is our ritualistic ceremony," these are all cheating. As people are cheating one another in different ways, this is another cheating. That's all. They will say, "We believe in this way," "We believe in that way." So what is that, you believe in that way? What is the fact? If you believe something wrong, is that to be taken as religion? We say tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Other religious sect, they say this is Hindu belief. It is not question of Hindu belief. It is the fact. Does it mean that a Muhammadan or Christian child does not become a boy? When Kṛṣṇa says dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā: (BG 2.13) just like the child is becoming boy, boy is becoming young. This is science. And why do you say it is Hindu belief? Does it mean that a Muslim or Christian child does not become a boy? What do you mean by Hindu belief? But they say it like that, Hindu belief. Is that correct if somebody says it is Hindu belief? No, it is fact, it is science. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Similarly, you have to change this body, another body. The example is given. Why do you think that because it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā it is Hindu belief? They say like that: "This is Hindu belief." What do you think? Is that Hindu belief?
Prabhupāda: Then there is the proof of less intelligence. God is great, very good, but how He is great. What is the conception of greatness. You accept me as a spiritual master, great, so you have got some conception of greatness. That you see in your spiritual master, therefore you accept him. And if you have no conception of greatness, what is the meaning of "He is great"? Therefore the real fact is, in the world there is no religion. They do not understand what is God, what is religion. Traditional, you can say superstition or some idea, actually no clear conception of religion. No idea in the world, except that in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. All vague ideas. "God is great," that's all. How He is great and worshipable? Who is God? And our ideal is to love God. So if I do not know about God, if I do not know who is God, then where is the question of love?
Nandarāṇī: But their faith is there.
Prabhupāda: Our mission is not to make the nonvegetarian as vegetarian. That will automatically be done. Our mission is to teach people how to love God.
Ali: That's right. I've noticed that. I had that conversation with Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: And to love God we must have definite idea of God, our exchange. Just like materially also, if somebody loves somebody, one must know each other. Otherwise where there is question of love? Love means direct contact. So they speak of love of Godhead. Just like the Christian people, they say "Love of Godhead." But they have no idea who is God. So where is the question of love? It is an impractical proposition, love of Godhead. First of all, you must know who is God. If I love somebody, I must know him, what he is. So this is going on. They speak of love of Godhead, but they do not know who is God or what is God. Therefore they are misguided. Simply it is words. There is no practical value. Do you agree with this point or not? If you have no idea of God, if you have no business with God, then where is the question of love? What is the definition of love, huh? What is the definition of love?
Prabhupāda: To understand, you have to take the training, spiritual training. You have to understand the words which God wants to let you know about Him. These are spiritual training. Spiritual training means first of all you must have little faith that "I shall be intimately related with God." Unless you have got this faith, there is no question of spiritual training. If you simply remain satisfied, "God is great, let Him remain at His home, let me remain at my home," that is not love. You must be eager to know God more and more intimately. Then the next stage is how to know about God unless you associate with persons who are simply busy in God's business. They have no other business. Just like we are training people, they are simply meant for God's business. They have no other business. How people will understand about God, how they will be benefited, they are simply planning in so many ways. So we have to associate with such persons who are convinced about God and trying to spread His knowledge throughout the world. You have to mix with, associate with them. First of all, you must have faith that, "In this life I shall understand thoroughly about God." Then associate with persons who are busy with God's business. Then you act as they are acting. Then your misconception of material life will be finished. Then you'll have attachment. Then you'll have taste. In this way you'll develop love of God.
Jñānagamya: It is up to you, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: No, I am... Everyone, you can... Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is practical. They are fully engaged how to make progressive advance in love of Godhead. They have no other business.
Hari-śauri: Nowadays generally, if someone is very religious and he wants to do some practical action, he usually acts on the social platform.
Prabhupāda: No, there, everywhere practical action. Just like all the Muhammadans, they go to the mosque, five times they offer prayer. That is good, very good.
Ali: Even to be attentive, to pay a lot of attention.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but that is also good, but if one is twenty-four-hours attentive, that is better.
Ali: The way I look at it, it's better to talk about God than to talk about...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good. One must be serious, that we are talking about God, so what is my God realization? That is nice. Otherwise, if I go on life after life talking about God and there is no God realization... That is going on. Śrama eva hi kevalam.
- dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ
- viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ
- notpādayed yadi ratiṁ
- śrama eva hi kevalam
- (SB 1.2.8)
We are talking of God, but instead of loving God, we are loving this body. So that is not practical. That is simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. If one does not become enthused to love God, then simply talking about God is a waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. That is going on all over the world. Somebody's Hindu, somebody's Christian, somebody's Muhammadan, they are going to the church, they are going to the mosque, they are going to the temple, everything is going on, but when you ask whether you love God or dog, he'll say, "I love dog." Practically we see. Everyone is keeping a dog, very favorite pet.
Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Officially, God, God, God, but result is dog. Love is there, love is... That is natural. I want to love. Everyone wants to love. But the, unless he loves God, he'll never be happy. So simply talking of love, and if the love is simply transferred to dog, then where is the love of God? So such kind of talking of called śrama eva hi kevalam. It is simply waste of time and energy. You must practically come to the platform how to love God. So it is a great science, and it is available for everyone to understand and act. It is a great science, one can take advantage. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sectarian religious movement, no. It is a science, how to understand God, how to love Him.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. Here is love of God. Whole day he was engaged to serve God, that is love.
Atreya Ṛṣi: We have a nice building for Kṛṣṇa, it's very nice.
Prabhupāda: Where it is?
Atreya Ṛṣi: It is in the middle of the city. It is the one I was explaining to you the other day. So we went to the notary, and it takes a long time, because it's a lot of red tape. And also the lights went off. The lights went off in the middle of writing the agreement. So now we have the agreement, by your grace, it is nice. If you feel good, maybe you can visit it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Tomorrow morning I'll go?
Atreya Ṛṣi: Well, I would like it when traffic is low, because it's in the city.
Prabhupāda: When it is, traffic is...?
Atreya Ṛṣi: It is in the heart of the city.
Prabhupāda: No, when the traffic will be low?
Atreya Ṛṣi: Thursday is very good, otherwise... It should be both cool... I mean they're living there, it's not...
Hari-śauri: Six o'clock.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in America we have got forty branches. Our philosophy is simple. We educate people to understand that there is God. This is a godless civilization. So we say that there is God. Try to understand, and love Him, that's all. This is our philosophy. Then you'll be happy. And so long you do not love God, you simply love dog, you'll never be happy. That is our philosophy. You have diverted your loving spirit to the dog. You change it. Instead of loving dog, you love God. Then dog will be loved and everyone will be loved. If you simply love dog, then your love will be simply in dog. But if you love God, then you'll love God and dog also. Just like you are eating. So the eatable is going to the stomach. If you distribute this eatable to the eyes, to the ears, to the nose—there are nine holes—it will be uselessly spoiled. And if you give this foodstuff to the stomach, the energy will be immediately distributed to the ears, to the eyes, to the nose, to the... Similarly, if you have got a propensity to love, you love God, your love will be distributed everywhere. And if you fix your love to the dog, then it is uselessly spoiled. That is going on. They have manufactured love for country, for this, that, so many things. But without love of God. Therefore the disturbance is going on. However big nationalist you may be, you cannot make happy anyone. That is not possible. Take for example our Mahatma Gandhi. He's recognized nationally, but he was killed by his countrymen. That's a fact. That means he could not make happy anyone. So we have got some loving propensity. If we love... That is our natural position. If we love God, then our love for others will automatically be done. And on account of loving God, our life will be perfect. What do you think of this philosophy? What do you think of this philosophy?
Guest: I think it's the supreme philosophy. It is basic philosophy which has been spoken, and unfortunately no practice, but it's a very good thought. It's a very big part and inject it again and revive it.
Prabhupāda: Love God.
Guest: That's right.
Prabhupāda: Premā pumartho mahān. Love of God is the highest perfection of life. This is our philosophy. (end)
Prabhupāda: The Ceylon is educated and if they are receiving, why not open a branch?
Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "He recently returned home after almost 3 years in India. My husband and I could see the awareness and maturity in him gained from his experiences in working with the Indian people. He learned first-hand about a different culture and it certainly has enriched his life. In our minds we can compare our son's life to the life of a Catholic monk or a religious Jew of the Hasidic sect. Do I think that my son is brainwashed? I can best answer this by answering the question, is our whole society not being brainwashed daily by the advertisement media? Liquor, smoking, pornographic movies and literature and which is worse? And what about the children who are being educated by the violence and killing on T.V.? I prefer that my son is devoting his life to the love of God and the service of humanity, a rare endeavor in this age. Since I know that my son has voluntarily chosen the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement to exercise these rights and that he can leave it whenever he wishes I cannot see how the term 'brainwashing' can be applicable to this movement. I sincerely believe from my contacts with many devotees that they are happy and have found fulfillment by loving and serving Lord Kṛṣṇa, God. This may not be my wish for my life but my son has chosen it for his, and I whole heartedly respect it."
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Bengali conversation) (end)
Devotee: In Hyderabad there is Muslim. He is a life member.
Prabhupāda: No, that, life member... God consciousness... Who will deny God? It is a science. So we are teaching the science, not the bigotry, "my God, your God." God is one. Gold is gold. Gold does not become Hindu gold, Muslim gold, or Christian gold. Anywhere gold is available, it is gold. That is our definition. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. That is highest, topmost type of religion, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, where one can learn how to love God, that's all. That is wanted. We are teaching that. There is no question of "this God, that God." God is one. You just practice how to love Him. Then your religion is first-class.
Guest (5): But why give names to Him? Why give names to that God?
Prabhupāda: No name. When I say, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, this is not name. Adhokṣaja means "who is beyond your sense perception."
Prabhupāda: Otherwise why is he asking, "You surrender," unless there is individuality? Why this request is there? Because you are individual, you can deny it. That individuality continues. But if you have love for God, then you agree, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)." So that is wanted. Not that he lost his individuality. Individuality is there.
Mr. Malhotra: Individuality remains. It seems so, that the individuality remains.
Prabhupāda: And this is the fact, Kṛṣṇa says. What Kṛṣṇa says you have to accept. Otherwise, what is the use of reading Bhagavad-gītā? You cannot accept Bhagavad-gītā through your whims. That is nonsense. You must accept as it is. That is wanted.
Prabhupāda: I say any religious stamp, material, there is no benefit. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). You have to give up all these designations. And bhakti, love of Godhead, or service to God, begins when you are relieved from these designations. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When becoming God conscious, you become completely purified, then your devotional life begins. And so long you are entangled with this designation, there is no question of devotional service. Either you Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn't matter. So our business is not that, that we convert a Hindu to a Christian or a Christian to a Hindu. That is not our business. They are thinking, because we dress like that, with tilaka, with māla, they think Hindu. But it's not our business to convert the Christians to become Hindus, as all other missionaries, they are doing. They are trying to increasing the number of Christian or Hindus. So our... There is no question of increasing. It is very difficult to accept.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Satsvarūpa: They should be chastised.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be punished. That is the duty of the king. You follow any bona fide religion; you get all protection. But you don't follow; you must be chastised. That is king's duty. A king has no objection whether you are following Christian method or Hindu method. It doesn't matter. But you must have some religion. If you have no religion, then you are animal. You must be chastised. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Religion means you believe in God and love Him. That's all, three words, religion. "You believe in God" means know God, what is God. And love Him. That's all. This is religion. So it doesn't matter whether you understand God through Christian method or Hindu method. But you love God and you abide by the orders of God. Then you are religious. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharma means, religion means, the words of God. So you must know what is God, and you must know what does He say. Then you are religious. It doesn't matter what it is, Christian and Hindu. Gold is gold. Whether you purchase it from a Muhammadan shop or Hindu shop or Christian shop, it doesn't matter. You must get gold. That's all. So whether you have got God? If you have got some fictitious God, then you must learn what is God. What is that? You do not know God, so you must learn what is God. If you refuse to learn, then you must be punished. And if you know God, then it is all right. If you do not know, then you must learn. If you refuse to learn, must be punished. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Simply follow this. Give them prasādam and let them chant. That is preaching. And if they're educated, let them read books. Then gradually, he'll automatically come. (break)
Pṛthu-putra: ...sheik. And they say that when the sheik is teaching them the spiritual understanding from Koran, they can have..., he's like the link between God and themself, and they can have direct contact with God from inside. So... And they say what Muhammad said, that was no prophet after him. So they always asking from which prophet we are following. So one day I told Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And he accept it more or less because I explained to this person... He was a professor in Cairo University. He was a Sufist himself, so he was much more open than the regular Muslim. And I explained to him that Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared according to the time and circumstances to preach love of God. And he understood it, but he just didn't know Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he said, "Then it's very nice. I can try to take knowledge of your philosophy," and he took the Gītā. He has the Gītā with him. So whenever I come back, he tell me, I always can go and give some discourses in the University, in his class. So I gave some discourses in universities, but sometimes I had to use some tricks. Like for example, once I gave a discourse in psychology department, explaining to them how the yoga system can bring you to different state of consciousness. And when I hint to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they were a little bit wondering what it is. Because unfortunately, due to their political situation, always in war with Israel and all these things, they're little bit...
Prabhupāda: Still war going on?
Pṛthu-putra: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (break) Oh. In the dictionary it is clearly stated, "God the Supreme Being." So He's a being, but supreme. And what are the signs of supremacy? One must be very rich, very famous, very strong, very learned. In this way analyze. So God means one who is in possession of all these things, all the reputation, all the beauty. That is God. On this point discuss. Now, who is God, that is to be found. But this is the position of God. Try to convince them.
Prabhupāda: That's his... He doesn't come down. He's already there. He does not come down. Just like the sun. The sun does not come down before me, but you can see him. In this way give them enlightenment. Sun doesn't require to come down, but sun is so bright and so prominent that you can see. Similarly, God doesn't require to come down. He's already present. Simply we have to make our eyes to see Him. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena (Bs. 5.38). When one is competent enough by developing his love for God, he can see always. God is visible everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's everywhere. So there is no difficulty to see. But simply one has to possess such purified eyes to see Him. Otherwise He can be seen anywhere. He can be seen within the atom even. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. That is God. He is present everywhere, but we must have the purified eyes to see, we must have the purified ears to hear Him. Otherwise God is everywhere.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) But he admitted. (laughter)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The general idea is just like this page, "Chant and Be Happy." But there is practically no devotees shown. The whole idea is that if you show devotees, no one will be able to identify with the devotee. So they're showing persons in material life, and each one of them is giving his opinion of why he chants. "Chanting makes me calmer," "Chanting makes me more perceptive," "Chanting makes me more open-minded." So these are all... (break) ...the ultimate goal of chanting is to instill love of God, but that thing is never mentioned. (break)
Brahmānanda: Then he would approve. That was the test.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This article has changed very much from the original Back to Godhead article. This article here is issue number, I think, 14, many years ago, about the anchor in the water. It was very Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now it has been made...
Rāmeśvara: 'Cause sometimes when we interview these people who are chanting, they speak from their own realization, and it is not exactly the version of Śukadeva Gosvāmī, it is not..., but it is their own realization, whatever little bit they have realized.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They may chant, but they must understand that the chanting process, that will be more effective. That they must know. Chanting is open. Anyone can chant, but they must know it, that "If I chant in the proper process, then it will be effective."
Rāmeśvara: It must be clear to them that the goal is love of God, not something material.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Premā pum-artho mahān. That is wanted. There is one word by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, nāmākṣara bahir haya nāma nāhi haya: "The... Simply the alphabets are coming, but that is not nāma." Nāmākṣara, Hare Kṛṣṇa, the alphabets, are coming out, but it is not the holy name.
Rāmeśvara: Suppose someone says that Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given freely this holy name with no rules and regulations... (break)
Brahmānanda: We wanted to make a distinction that a nondevotee chanting is different from when a pure devotee chants.
Rāmeśvara: So that distinction should be there.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Everything is accurate there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In that particular Purāṇa? He says he is sorry to take your very precious time, and he prays that you answer all of his questions, which you have done. So he thanks you very much for reading this letter and for your expected help. He asks one last question in a P.S., which I think is practically an important question. He says, "To practically follow Jesus Christ for a sincere searcher of the truth who does not recognize and accept the external manifestations of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is it possible to attain love of God?" No.
Prabhupāda: Love of God means God's mercy. If God is pleased, He can do anything. So that pleasure of God can be awakened by love. This is called in Sanskrit kṛpā-siddhi. Perfection out of affection. Out of mercy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants to know whether it is possible to attain that affection of love for God...
Prabhupāda: No, that is not generally...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...without taking part in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Prabhupāda: One must follow the regulative principles and refrain from sinful activities. Then it depends on Kṛṣṇa's mercy. You cannot force Him to give you mercy. That is not possible. Mercy is mercy. You have to do your duty, and the mercy depends upon Him.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda sent Ātreya Ṛṣi to Pakistan. He writes, "My dear Śrīla Prabhupāda, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to you who are the only guiding light in the world of darkness. India is that holy land in which the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Śrī Caitanya appeared and in whose inhabitants He instructed to go all over the world and spread the science of love of Godhead. It is in this way that I realize your emphasizing the activities of ISKCON in India after your very successful endeavoring in the West. Pakistan is a nonseparable part of India, and I appreciate your compassion towards them and your desire to help them."
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: And still more magic? The world is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Boliye?
- yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
- mad-gatenāntar-ātmanā
- śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
- sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
- (BG 6.47)
He is yogi. There are many varieties of yogis. And Kṛṣṇa concludes, "Of all the yogis, big, big yogis, the person who is always remembering Kṛṣṇa and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra is first class." This is said by Kṛṣṇa, not by me. Therefore it is authorized statement. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all these mystic powers... They may be temporarily some magic, but Kṛṣṇa says that "One who is always remembering Me," satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14), "he is first-class yogi." So all these persons who are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa according to the prescribed rules and regulations, without any offense... There are ten kinds of offenses. So in the beginning there may be offenses. It doesn't matter. It will be rectified. Offenseless chanting means mukti, and then pure chanting means love of Godhead. There are three stages. In the beginning, when one begins chanting, it is not pure. There are so many offenses. But chanting, chanting, the offenses become purified. Offenseless chanting is not purified completely, but it is offenseless.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next, from the Indian Institute of Technology in Bombay. This is from Dr. Ram Kanstanari(?) Chairman of the Department, Indian Institute of Technology, Department of Humanities and Social Sciences. " 'Sir: I am pleased to make the following comments concerning your beautiful and learned publications, Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta of Gosvāmī Kṛṣṇa Kavirāja and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, both written by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. I feel that these works are the result of Swami Prabhupāda's extraordinary commitment to the bhakti cult in the Indian tradition. Swami Prabhupāda's style and language are full of the flashes of his intuition. They clearly represent his realization that love for God and for mankind should be the foundation of all interpersonal relations. Kṛṣṇa is the symbol of this love. He is the Absolute in an incarnate form. Love for Kṛṣṇa therefore sung in all forms of devotion-laden language asserts man's empathy towards His entire creation. The Central Library of the Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay, has already secured, on my recommendation, the above-mentioned works complete. These works are read by the faculty and students here, not only for their religious message but also for the unique interpretation they embody of the traditional cult of bhakti in India. The poetic and devotionalistic tenor of these works, I am sure, would make one realize the meaning of man's dependence on God. I have no hesitation to state that His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has done an immortal service to the movement of devotionism and Hinduism in particular and in world religions in general, by so ably bringing out these works in beautiful English. Every library in the world that is engaged in promoting the welfare of the human self by turning it towards the supremacy of the divine spirit...' "
Prabhupāda: Everyone is recommending. All libraries.
Prabhupāda: "Without your blessings, how can I get compassion?"
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And without your blessings, how could we distribute so many? We directly see the proof of that verse, that the more the Pañca-tattva saw that these fruits of love of God were distributed, the more they relished. We find in distributing your books that the more we distribute your books, the more blissful we feel. This book distribution is actually a part of our daily lives, just like... It is one of the regulative principles practically. Chant sixteen rounds, follow the four regulative principles, and distribute Prabhupāda's books. Everyone sometime in the day does some book distribution or helps in some way the book distribution. (break) ...distribution has begun, the devotees enjoy it so much that they even like to do book distribution more than the life membership. The ecstasy of approaching people, person by person, simply on the friendship of your books is the highest of all pleasures. (break)
Prabhupāda: So far I am thinking, I'm not improving in strength. And how can I improve by drinking little barley and milk and little fruit juice? I have no appetite for anything else. In case I... Most probably, I am diminishing my strength.
| Page Title: | Love of Godhead (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 25 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=190, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 190 |