Prabhupāda: So if we take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that is the proper utilization of our energy given by God. Just like if I'm healthy the finger is also healthy. Then what is the duty of the healthy finger? To serve this body. Similarly, we have got this energy from Kṛṣṇa, from God. So if you utilize this energy from Kṛṣṇa then it is proper utilization. If you utilize the energy for your sense gratification then you are misusing it. So anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's spoiling his time, wasting his life and subjecting himself in so many laws of nature. So these things are very nicely explained in this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. This is the preliminary study of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and if one studies this book nicely then he goes to other books. I've got this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. This is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But the project is very great. It will have to be finished in sixty volumes like this. So about ten, twelve volumes are already finished. So I'm going on working on this. So it is a great subject matter for study. So people should take interest in it. It is not anything trifle thing. People should come to us to understand.
Laws of nature (Conversations 1968 - 1973)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That is the nature. Demonic nature means they do not believe in God. "Oh, what nonsense, God. I am God." Although he's a dog, he thinks himself, "I am God." That is demonic nature. He is being kicked every minute by the laws of nature, and still, he is superficially thinking that "I am God." God is not so cheap, but they have made to become God is very cheap. If you pay thirty-five dollars to a person, he'll give you a mantra and you become within six months God. This is very nice statement and people will follow. Thousands and thousands will follow. But if you say, "Oh, you have to undergo much austerity, penance, regulation and tapasya," "Oh, this is botheration. We shall enjoy material life, and the same time become God." So these cheap things are exhibited by the demons. And when a demon is born, the natural disturbances are there.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: ...same place. By nature's law you'll have to quit.
Guest (1): Quit.
Prabhupāda: Just like... What to speak of ordinary man. President Kennedy. Oh, how much labor he had to undergo to occupy that post, how much money he spent to become president. But he had to quit his family, his wife, his state, his post. So this is going on. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). For sometimes we are engaged in this way; then again we are annihilated. Again begin another life, enter into another mother's womb, construct another body, then come out, then again begin work, again the same thing, digging and piling, digging and piling, again going away. Is that very good business? This is the karmīs. Karmīs means worker, fruitive worker. They want some result for their work. They are called karmīs. So the karmīs are engaged in this way. (Doorbell rings) In Bhagavad-gītā these karmīs have been described as rascals, mūḍha. Mūḍha. Because they do not know why they are digging, why they are piling and why they are leaving again everything.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So sadācāra means to become freed from sinful reaction. Unless one follows the regulative principles he cannot be freed. And unless one is fully freed from sinful reaction he cannot understand what is God. Those who are not in sadācāra, regulative principles, for them... Just like animals, they are not expected to follow any... Of course, by nature they follow regulative principles. Still, but human being, having advanced consciousness, so instead of using it properly, they misuse the advanced consciousness and thus they become lower than animals. The animals, for want of advanced consciousness, cannot follow any regulative principles. But by nature they have got some regulative principle. A human being, advanced consciousness, instead of using it for advance in spiritual life they use it for sense gratification and thus they become lower than the animals. So as soon as one becomes irregulated, without any sadācāra, then he doesn't care for any sinful activities for maintaining his body and soul together. He doesn't mind. Their philosophy is, what is called? "Existence is the first law of nature," or something like...
Prabhupāda: The story is a mouse came to a saintly person: "Sir, I am in trouble. If you kindly release me?" "What is that trouble?" "A cat, they are after me. I am always at risk of life." "So what do you want?" "You also make me a cat." "All right. You become a cat." Then again he came. "Sir, again the complaint is here." "What is that?" "Dogs are chasing me." "Then what do you want?" "I want to become a dog." "All right. You become a dog." In this way he came up to the tiger by the benediction of the... And when he became a tiger, he was... (snarling sound-laughter) Just like our Brahmānanda Prabhu. "All right. Again become mouse." You see? So these civilization is like that. They became tiger, and they are so much badly trained up that they have to become again a mouse. That is the way. That is the way of nature. If you don't improve yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you again become stool worms. The human form of life is an opportunity to come out of the cycle of birth and death, but if one does not take—these are the statements in Padma Purāṇa—then he loses the chance. They do not know what is life, how life is rotating, talking nonsense, "I am God. Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? This is written by man." How much low-graded people have become. They are completely under the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14), stringent laws of nature, and still, they are claiming, "I am God. I am this. I am that. I am free.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: God is not your order-supplier. You create war and pray to the church. Why you create war? Precaution is better than... Unless you Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you will... Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). You will encroach upon other's property. That pāpa-bīja has to be killed. Now, after creating war... What is the use? After creating war by your own fault, if you go to the church and pray God, "Please save me," so who wanted you to create this war? They are creating their wars, and they are making God as order-supplier: "Now I have created war. Please stop it." Why? Did you do it by the sanction of God? So they must suffer. How can you make God as your order-supplier? You create something by your own fault and you ask God to come and save you. What is your answer? That is... That is, means, sva-karma-phala-bhuk. You have created something: you must suffer for that. You have created some disease: you must suffer it. Why you violated the law of nature and created your disease? Is it not a fact that when you eat, overeat, and you have got so many troubles in the stomach, then you must suffer for some time. You have created that disease.
Prabhupāda: Now I do not know what other people give analogy, but my business is that we take it from Bhagavad-gītā that living entities are part and parcel of God. Therefore, just like this part and parcel of my body is active in relationship with this body but if it is cut off from the body, it is no more active. Similarly, those who are not active in rendering service to God, they're as dead as this finger cut off from the body. So they have to be awakened to that consciousness. Just like a tree, you cut it, it has no consciousness to protest. But, even an ant, a small ant, because it has developed consciousness, you try to kill it, it'll protest. Therefore the more consciousness you develop, you become active. That is nature's law. That is nature's law. Developed consciousness does not mean to become dead.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: The whole human life is meant for purifying. Śuddhyed sattva. Sattva means existence. So if you don't purify your existence, then you'll have to change your body, from this body to that. Sometimes it may be higher, sometimes lower. Just like, if you don't cure your disease, it can take turn in so many ways to put you into trouble. Similarly, if you don't purify your existence, then you'll have to transmigrate from one body to another. And there is no guarantee what kind of body you'll get. Very subtle laws of nature. Now there is no guarantee that you will get a very comfortable body or American body, no. Therefore for human being it is essential that he should purify his existence. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam (SB 5.5.1). Unless you purify your existence, you're hankering after happiness, you cannot get continued happiness. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: "Practice means employing both the mind and the senses in practical devotional service. This practice is not for developing something artificial. For example, a child learns or practices to walk. This walking is not unnatural. The walking capacity is there originally in the child, and simply by a little practice he walks very nicely. Similarly, devotional service to the Supreme Lord is the natural instinct of every living entity. Even uncivilized men like the aborigines offer their respectful obeisances to something wonderful exhibited by nature's law, and they appreciate that behind some wonderful exhibition or action there is something supreme. So this consciousness, though lying dormant in those who are materially contaminated, is found in every living entity. And when it is purified, this is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: "So Śukadeva Gosvāmī has recommended to Parīkṣit Mahārāja that in order to be fearless of death, one has to hear and chant and remember the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, by all means. He also mentions that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is sarvātmā. Sarvātmā means 'the Supersoul of everyone.' Kṛṣṇa is also mentioned as īśvara, the supreme controller who is situated in everyone's heart. Therefore, if some way or other we become attached to Kṛṣṇa, He will make us free from all danger. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that anyone who becomes a devotee of the Lord is never vanquished. Others, however, are always vanquished. 'Vanquished' means that after getting this human form of life, a person does not come out of the entanglement of birth and death, and thus he misses his golden opportunity. Such a person does not know where he is being thrown by the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: The recommendation of Rūpa Gosvāmī for reviving our original Kṛṣṇa consciousness is that somehow or other we should apply our minds to Kṛṣṇa very seriously and thus also become fearless of death. After death we do not know our destination, because we are completely under the control of the laws of nature. Only Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is controller over the laws of nature. Therefore, if we take shelter of Kṛṣṇa seriously, there will be no fear of being thrown back into the cycle of so many species of life. A sincere devotee will surely be transferred to the abode of Kṛṣṇa, as affirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Well, President Nixon means this country. Why he went to China? Why he went to Russia? He's also afraid. If there is war there will be great calamity. So everyone is afraid. Everyone is under the control of the laws of nature. Everyone is hungry. So actually nobody's powerful in this material world. Even if he's powerful, it is for temporary. So many Hitlers, so many Napoleons, so many Churchills and others came and gone. There was powerful British Empire, powerful Roman Empire. So nobody's powerful. That's a wrong idea. In due course of time everything will be kicked out and finished. That is the law of nature.
Prabhupāda: So what is their credit? If you simply copy something, that is not credit. The credit should go to the original.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The scientists admit that there is nothing new that they can make. Everything is the manipulation of the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: Then the thing is that as they are individual person trying to do something wonderful, the individual person who has already done all this wonderful, how much credit He deserves. If by simply copying you want to take so much credit that you will defy the existence of God, you are so fool, rascal, then how much credit should be given to the original person who has made all these things existing. What is their answer?
Prabhupāda: The other day we were talking with some scientists. We came to this conclusion, that the scientists, big scientists, they are simply concerned with the laws of nature, because the laws of nature are very stringent. For example, there is death. Everyone will die. So nobody can check death. However great scientist he may, he cannot stop death. By laws of nature one is becoming old. By your scientific advancement you can stop first of all. So the science means they are trying to overcome the stringent laws of nature, but so far... Not so far—even in the past in the human history they could not. In the present also they are unable. They say in future they will be able. But how we can believe it?
Prabhupāda: Because in the past they could not; in the present also they are unable. How they can overcome the laws of nature in the future? History repeats. Same failure there is (indistinct). Therefore the divine means, as we define, the divine means the controller of the laws of nature. Laws of nature there is, and everyone is under the laws of nature. Nobody can overcome the laws of nature. Just like state laws. Every citizen is bound to abide by the state law. He cannot overcome it. If..., if he overcomes it then, or violates it, the violation of law, and he becomes punishable. Similarly the laws of nature means laws of God. Just like your president is the giver of your state law. Similarly, as soon as we say laws of nature, there must be giver of them. In our śāstra, the Vedic literature, it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharma, religion, means the codes given by God, and we have to abide by those laws. When we do not abide by those laws, then we violate the laws of nature, of God, and we become punishable.
Guest (1): If our senses are imperfect, then with what sense do we perceive the Divine that underlies these laws of nature?
Prabhupāda: That our senses are imperfect means, just like I have given the example, I can see the sun, but I do not see the sun perfectly. I have got the power to see the sun, but I do not know how big is the sun. That power I haven't got. In that way my senses are imperfect. So when I see the sun and hear about him from a perfect person who knows about the sun, then my knowledge becomes perfect, although I have got imperfect senses. Just like I cannot understand President Nixon by my speculation, but when President speaks about him I can understand, although I have got imperfect senses. This is the process. Imperfect in this way: that our senses cannot approach to the ultimate point by speculation.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also bondage. Suppose you love your countrymen. So you want to remain a faithful national, so you will get your birth again in this country or that country, as you like. (doorbell rings) So either you get your birth in India or in America, it doesn't matter. You are bound up by the laws of nature. It is not that Americans do not die, only Indians die. Everyone dies. So that is also bondage.
Guest (1): How about love towards relatives? They say, "Love your parents," or "Love your wife and children." Isn't that also bondage?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): Does that mean you should not love your parents?
Prabhupāda: So, therefore, they are all animals. Fools, rascals. Abodha-jāto, they have been described—all rascals, fools. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma. So long they do not come to the point of understanding spirit soul, they are simply rascals. And whatever they are doing, simply being defeated actually. The so-called scientific research, simply their defeat. What they have gained? That is stated in Bhāgavata. Parābhava. Parābhava means defeat. So long they do not come to the understanding of self, the spirit soul, they are simply rascals and fools. And what the rascals and fools can become victorious? They will never become victorious. They will always be subdued by the laws of nature. Parābhava, defeat simply. Whatever scientific discoveries, there is simply defeat, not conquering. That old scientist, he could not check his old age, so what is the value of his scientific discoveries? He could not check his growing in age, so what is the value of scientific advancement? He will die. They cannot check death, they cannot check old age. Nobody can check death. Then what is advancement? The real problems are there. Parābhavas tāvad. Parābhava, simply defeat, wasting time being defeated by the laws of nature. They cannot understand anything properly.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this cheating process is going on. But you cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa or māyā, that is not possible. It is gosvāmī, that is (indistinct) Don't make compromise that somehow or other just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everything will be done. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Duratyayā. It is very difficult to surmount the laws of nature. So how is that achieved? Just like laws of nature are so strict, if you eat more, immediately you get indigestion. So how you can cheat? You can experience. Nature's law is working. Therefore, to become brāhmaṇa means satyam. You know the meaning of satyam? Satyam means truth. The first quality is he is truthful. Satyaṁ śaucam ārjavam āstikyaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam. The beginning is satyam. Generally the people in pilgrimages like Vṛndāvana, they have taken this religiousness as a profession to earn money, just like other businessmen do. That is cheating. Generally they do so. In Los Angeles they are keeping the standard given by ourself. At every āratik in early morning, at least 150 men.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: But... Thing is that they are studying the laws very nicely. That's good. But they should appreciate that who has made this law? That is their defect. They are studying how the laws of nature is working. That's nice. But they should appreciate at the same time: Who made such subtle laws that they are working so nicely? That is our philosophy. We do not only study the laws and appreciate it, but we study the law-maker also. That is the difference between ourself and the so-called scientists. They are left, poor fund of knowledge. They cannot appreciate that there is a law-maker of these subtle laws. That is their defect. That is called poor fund of knowledge. And as soon as we accept law-maker, we have to accept that He's a person, He has got brain. Therefore He can make laws. Just like the great ocean is working, but there is a law. It cannot come here. Although there is potency.
Prabhupāda: But... Thing is that they are studying the laws very nicely. That's good. But they should appreciate that who has made this law? That is their defect. They are studying how the laws of nature is working. That's nice. But they should appreciate at the same time: Who made such subtle laws that they are working so nicely? That is our philosophy. We do not only study the laws and appreciate it, but we study the law-maker also. That is the difference between ourself and the so-called scientists. They are left, poor fund of knowledge. They cannot appreciate that there is a law-maker of these subtle laws. That is their defect. That is called poor fund of knowledge. And as soon as we accept law-maker, we have to accept that He's a person, He has got brain. Therefore He can make laws. Just like the great ocean is working, but there is a law. It cannot come here. Although there is potency. At any second it can cover the whole city But there is a law. Just like state laws. Up to this. No more admission. You have to stop. Similarly, there is law of God. Where there is order: You mighty ocean, you cannot come beyond this. This is law. There is sun. "You must rise at half-past, at five o'clock in the morning."
Prabhupāda: You have to stop. Similarly, there is law of God. Where there is order: You mighty ocean, you cannot come beyond this. This is law. There is sun. "You must rise at half-past, at five o'clock in the morning." "Yes, sir." This is law. "You must rise on the Eastern side." "Yes, Sir." Not whimsically. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side, sometimes that side. Cannot do whimsically. That is law of nature. And behind the law of nature, there is the order-giver, law-maker. This is perfect knowledge. mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Under My superintendence, the laws of nature is working." This is intelligence. We are teaching people this intelligence. That's all. We don't decry that your studying of the laws of nature is useless. We don't say that. We say: "Not so much. This is imperfect. Go forward still." And that is perfection. You are a science student. By your scientific knowledge, you prove that behind these laws, there is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is possibility. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Change of body. So if... According to laws of nature, you have to change your body. You cannot dictate the laws of nature that: "Give me this body. Give me again American body." That is not possible. When you are dead, you have to accept another body. It may be cat's body, dog's body. It doesn't matter. You cannot dictate nature that: "Give me a body like this."
Brahmānanda: Just like when the magistrate gives you a sentence, you cannot say: "Oh, give me this sentence..." No, you must accept.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prabhupāda: In Bhagavad-gītā it is said: duḥkhālayam. This is a place for suffering only. This material world is a place for suffering. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: duḥkhālayam... And that suffering, that also you, you cannot make any, what is called, compromise. "All right, it is suffering. I shall remain here." But that also you cannot. Some day nature will kick you out. "Get out." Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Even if you accept this place of misery to be your permanent residence, that also you cannot have. You have to go out. Today or tomorrow or fifty years after, you have to go. That is the mistake. I am thinking: "Now I have got this American body, or this body, that body. I am very happy." But how long you'll remain in this condition? Any moment, you will be kicked out. This is laws of nature. Therefore my intelligence will, will be shown when we are trying for the real eternal life. That is (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: That means they're rascals. They do not know.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So our answer will be because of the laws of nature?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because we are under the laws of nature...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But why...? I am against laws of nature. That is my question. Do you... If I am also nature's product, then why against laws of nature? Why?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: By forgetting my real relationship, I tend to rule over the laws of material nature.
Prabhupāda: That I am struggling. That is my business here. I am simply struggling. Laws of nature is obstructing my process of enjoyment, and I want to enjoy. Why this position? We inquire these intelligent questions. What they are inquiring? They do not know what to inquire.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Fools. Animals.
Brahmānanda: Sanātana Gosvāmī also asked that question to Caitanya Mahāprabhu...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, that is the question of human life, that: "I want to enjoy. Why there is obstruction of my enjoyment?" Then the next question will be then what I am and what is this nature? These are intelligent questions. That is called brahma-jijñāsā. Where shall I eat? Where shall I sleep? These are very minor questions. They are questions for animals. For the human being, this is the question, that "I want to enjoy life.
Prabhupāda: The child is sent to school just for teaching him how to think correctly. Otherwise, what is the use of sending him to school? He can think at home. Why they are sent to school? To learn how to think. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause) This is thinking, when you question that: "I want to become happy. Why I am not happy?" This is thinking. Everyone wants to become happy, but nature's process is to obstruct his happiness. So one should think: "Why this is position? I want to live. Why, by laws of nature, I am put to death? I must die? This is against my wish, against my desire." This is thinking. So how to get out of it? This is real thinking. I don't want something, but something is forced upon me, and why it is so? When this "Why?" question will come to me, that is real thinking. Where is that thinking? These rascals, where is that thinking? How to check death, how to check disease, how to check old age. Where is that thinking? Where is that scientist?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they create. By violating the nature's law, disease is created.
Brahmānanda: Their whole idea is that they want to violate the law but not suffer for it. That is the whole basis of their research work.
Prabhupāda: But actually they suffer. Actually they suffer. Now, what is this research work? This is suffering, spending so much hard-earned money. So one of the cause of, I can say, one of the cause of cancer disease is this contraceptive method. You can make research on it. This is very dangerous stipulation, to use contraceptives. So they are, one side, discovering contraceptive medicine, contraceptive chemical; another side researching for cancer disease. And they say also that smoking is also one of the causes, smoking. So why do you not give up smoking? Smoking, illicit sex, contraceptive method.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These chemical elements will already help him, by nature's way. Just like you put a seed on the earth. So other things necessary for fructifying that seed, that is already there. They will come to help it. That is already there. Just like the living entity in seed form is impregnated within the womb of the mother. The mother has got within the womb all ingredients. Body will develop. On account of the presence of the living entity, by the laws of nature, everything is there. A dog is forming dog's body, man is forming man's body. Why? Because everything is there. A cat is forming cat's body in the womb of the... Yathā yonir yathā bījam. You haven't got to search out. It is already there.
Prabhupāda: No. Because in the lower form of life, the progress is by the laws of nature, and in the human form of life, you get consciousness development. Therefore you have got discretion. The other forms, they have no discretion, one after another.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. My point being the... Some human beings, they come without traveling through these 8,400,000 species.
Prabhupāda: Then he can come.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this applies only to those living entities who are born...
Prabhupāda: They are advanced in consciousness. They are advanced in consciousness. Suppose you are advanced in consciousness. So you are not going to get the dog's body or cat's body. You get another human body. Yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate. Yoga-bhraṣṭaḥ is not ordinary man.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot observe, your rascal eyes are so imperfect, you cannot observe so many things. That does not mean science. Why don't you admit your imperfectional senses? You first of all admit the imperfectional senses. You cannot see. You cannot experience. That, does it mean that is science? So many dogs they cannot understand what is the law of nature. Does it mean that nature does not exist? Why do you think your sense are perfect? First of all, admit that you're the most imperfect.
Karandhara: They'll admit that, but they say the way of becoming perfect is through objective information and experience.
Prabhupāda: No. Way of becoming perfect is different. You cannot become perfect by your imperfect thinking. How you can become perfect?
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to depend.
Krishna Tiwari: No. Change is the law of nature. Change is the law of nature. Change...
Prabhupāda: "Change is the law of nature," that's fine...
Krishna Tiwari: And therefore...
Prabhupāda: ...but one should know the whole duration of change. Just like we know that sunrise, from the morning 'till evening, there are so many changes, but I know what is that changes. That is knowledge.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That as much as you go along with that law of nature...
Krishna Tiwari: No. No. For example we have found out the law of nature, yes. That is always the law of nature, and that is supreme. That I agree. But, but I can manipulate that law of nature as today, not me, with the help of all other scientists, which nobody else could do ever.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And your manipulation is within that law of nature. Your manipulation fits within that law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Of course. Of course, I agree.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And your manipulation, your intelligence...
Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot manipulate the law of nature. You are under the law.
Krishna Tiwari: Fine. But what I'm saying is that when the question of soul is something which is not at the moment visible to us or anybody. There is no indication that there is soul, because if there is soul in everything, I would imagine that that will not be controllable under laboratory conditions. If soul made us, then we should not be able to make differences amongst us. If, if the soul was the prime force, and was important force, then such differences of very magnified nature as exists between one species, between the same species, for example human beings, or between the rats. They will not be under the control of the human beings. One could make rats with white eyes, same rat can be bred and made with blue eyes. Or rat can be made white to black. Now these knowledge, this knowledge which man has achieved by studying the law of nature would never have arrived if we just believed in total something which has been said.
Śyāmasundara: What..., what good are blue-eyed rats?
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is a different point. (laughter) What good is life? What good is anything? But that, that point is out of the question.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: You're not creating anything new.
Krishna Tiwari: I never said I did create anything new, but I changed those recognized things at will.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within the laws of mutations.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes, at will, at will, made by my own, which, which God...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. No. That will is not your own.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is not.
Krishna Tiwari: Sure it is.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is limited. You... Can you will to jump up, go to another star?
Krishna Tiwari: No. No. We don't know yet, that.
Prabhupāda: So you don't know so many things.
Prabhupāda: Apart from the soul, how, what is your explanation of this dead body?
Krishna Tiwari: We point that the organs get diseased, reactions do not take place as they do, and the nature of, law of nature takes over. We are the great believers of law of nature, better than, than religious people. We believe law of nature more than anybody else does.
Śyāmasundara: But you think you can control the law of nature?
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I think so. I think so. This, this is the great...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Beyond the law of nature or within the law?
Krishna Tiwari: Within the law of nature.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within the law of nature. Therefore you can never control it.
Krishna Tiwari: Why not?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within it, you're controlling it within it.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, what is control there?
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's what, we are doing it. Nobody else has told us to do it. We found it out. Nobody told us.
Krishna Tiwari: Within it. I agree. We are all the subject of law of nature.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: We, we... Exactly. When you say "we", you are also within it.
Krishna Tiwari: Of course I am.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: All right. Let's go beyond this, and see what is beyond this, and that's what Swamiji...
Krishna Tiwari: Beyond nobody knows.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: He knows.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don't know.
Prabhupāda: No, beyond, therefore... No, no. Beyond... You see, as you say that you are within the law of nature.
Prabhupāda: No, beyond, therefore... No, no. Beyond... You see, as you say that you are within the law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes, I agree. We all of us are.
Prabhupāda: So, somebody must be above law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Not necessarily.
Prabhupāda: No, must be. Otherwise there cannot be law.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, law or not, the ones which we need reading the books or administration, these are not those laws.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, just like...
Śyāmasundara: He means the word law? What does it mean?
Prabhupāda: Just like, just like we are within the state law.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are subordinate to the law, and the law is given by another, bigger person.
Krishna Tiwari: No bigger person. Now, now. These laws of nature...
Prabhupāda: How you say it is not bigger? Government is bigger than you.
Krishna Tiwari: No, no, no. That's misconception, whatsoever. As a matter of fact that's the opposite...
Prabhupāda: It is obstinacy. It is obstinacy. It is obstinacy. You cannot say government is under you. You are under government.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I didn't say government was under me, but I said the laws are made for us...
Prabhupāda: That you don't care for it... The point is you are under nature's law. There must be somebody who is controlling nature's law.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. It could be.
Śyāmasundara: Unless you think that you have made some by your vote or something.
Krishna Tiwari: No, I never made that. No. That was the difference I was going to tell. If you'll give an example of a government, that is very different from the example of nature.
Devotee (1): Yes. No analogy is perfect. So it's more like the Russian government, let's say. Right?
Prabhupāda: That government, what does it mean, "government"? Government means also a person, like president.
Devotee (1): This is, this is, you know this is still going off the point. The point is still being made that you've already agreed with that you are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes.
Devotee (1): And that you did not take a hand in determining these laws.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay, I agree.
Devotee (1): He agrees that he's under the law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: But I do not agree with some of your government orders.
Devotee (1): That's fine.
Prabhupāda: Now the fact, first of all, we are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: All right...
Prabhupāda: And the laws of nature... (break)
Prabhupāda: But we know, we know, in this way, that Lord Kṛṣṇa says that mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10), "Under My control, under My superintendence, the material law of nature is working."
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't know who, who, who, who said that...
Prabhupāda: You don't know; therefore you learn it, you learn it from Bhagavad-gītā. You do not know that. You learn it.
Krishna Tiwari: No. I have read Bhagavad-gītā. I am aware of it. I know what is said there.
Prabhupāda: Here it is said,
- mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
- sūyate sa-carācaram
- hetunānena kaunteya
- jagad vipari...
- (BG 9.10)
You are coming from Indian brāhmaṇa family, you must know it.
Prabhupāda: Well, no, no trouble. First of all, we have accepted that we are under the control of laws of nature. That is a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Now we say... Not we say; our Vedic literature says that there is a controller of the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don't know about that. Maybe. Me, I don't know about that.
Prabhupāda: You don't know. Why don't you know? You must know. You must know. Here it is said.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a fact because we are, we are arguing. We are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And there must be one who is above the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: No problem, yes.
Prabhupāda: No, no problem. This is a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: We do not know for fact, and nobody else does.
Prabhupāda: What?
Prabhupāda: You don't know so many points. First of all this point, let us decide, that every one of us under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You can save the child for the time being by (indistinct) nature, but it is under the laws of nature, it will die. That's a fact.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree.
Prabhupāda: You cannot avoid it. So everyone is under the laws the nature. Let us decide on that. Now these laws of nature, these also controlled by somebody else. As we gave the example that every individual person within a state is controlled by the laws of government or laws of king. Now it is governed by democracy. Formerly it was under the king. So king is a person. He gives the law, and under that law all citizens are controlled. This is a fact. Therefore the laws of nature is controlled by somebody, controller, and we get this information from Vedic knowledge. And practically it is so, that just by the example, law must be given by somebody. Law is not blind, or something dropped from the sky. Law is law. It is made by somebody.
Prabhupāda: That is called Vedānta-sūtra. In small codes, the things are given there, Vedic knowledge. Just like what is the ultimate Absolute Truth, the question, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Brahman means absolute, the biggest. So the answer is janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is Absolute Truth, Supreme Brahman, wherefrom everything comes. So the laws of nature comes from Him.
Krishna Tiwari: This is all imagination according to me. I mean it's all imagination and belief at this point to me. I mean I have no objection...
Prabhupāda: No, what is the imagination? Not here, imagination. When you learn from a, a... Just like the law of gravitation, it is not imagination.
Krishna Tiwari: Well law of gravitation, anything we know about gravity did not come from Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Not from Veda, but it comes from Mr. Newton.
Prabhupāda: No, no, don't be upset. You said that you are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: I am.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are under subjugation.
Krishna Tiwari: But, but I do not believe these kind of "authority" words.
Prabhupāda: You believe, you believe. When, when the laws of nature will force upon you death, you must believe.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I'm sure I will believe.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that you are not obligation?
Krishna Tiwari: No, but that's not question of authority or anything...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is authority. We mean another...
Śyāmasundara: You're under nature's law.
Krishna Tiwari: Right, we all are. You, me, Swamiji, you, all of us are.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly. Exactly.
Krishna Tiwari: Neither you are above me, nor you are below, nor I am above you. I may have respect for you, because I, on my own, believe that you are respectable. That is entirely different thing.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's up to you.
Krishna Tiwari: Then authority. That's what I'm saying. This is up to me. But authority and subjugation are, are the two things which will not come.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's a matter of your choice. Accepting...
Krishna Tiwari: It's a matter of personal choice.
Prabhupāda: If you are not under subjugation, that does not authority?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can I, can I summarize to you what our position on authority is? What we're talking about is that simply you're saying we both agree that there is a very beautiful set-up here. It's not accidental set-up. (indistinct) intelligent laws of nature. We both agree that there must be something beyond it.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: I agree.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: You agree. Now you don't know beyond that. You have not... You say "I don't have time," or somehow...
Krishna Tiwari: No. I have lot of time, just I can't find.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly, exactly. You made your choice not to go after, or you cannot find it, you say.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So you have to believe there is an alternative beyond and above this law of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Believe? I always said from the very beginning, beliefs are entirely different thing.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And you have to understand where does this information come from. This doesn't come accidentally. It comes from the source of information. And this source of information we call the Vedas. It is not an accidental literature.
Prabhupāda: The Veda means knowledge.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Knowledge coming from, just like you were talking about.
Prabhupāda: Now, this is another point. First of all you must settle up this. (laughter). First of all we must settle up this fact, that we are all under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: I agree, Swamiji, completely.
Prabhupāda: Now the point is, we, we say the laws of nature is also given by somebody else. That is our point.
Krishna Tiwari: Which probably I have nothing to add to.
Prabhupāda: That is the point.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but my one...
Prabhupāda: Now, what is that person, that is another thing, but simply let us agree that we are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is also controlled by somebody.
Prabhupāda: That is our point. That is our point. Now, who is that person, or what is that substance which is controlling the law of nature, that is not yet known to the science.
Krishna Tiwari: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we, either you say "believe" or you know, we know.
Krishna Tiwari: Well that's okay. Okay, because everybody is free to believe in it, but one cannot say.
Prabhupāda: That is the point. You don't believe that; we believe that.
Krishna Tiwari: No, that is not true. I didn't say that. I agreed with it. But I do not know who the person is...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Prabhupāda: That is our point. That is our point. That's all.
Krishna Tiwari: But that is, this is again a conjecture which probably everybody is...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you have to accept. We are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is controlled by something superior.
Krishna Tiwari: That's fine. I don't think we have any disagreement on that point.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let us agree to that point.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Let us agree to that point. Now what is that something, that remains, for the time being. I may say "I know"; you may say "I don't believe in it." That is a different thing. But there must be something above the laws of nature which is controlling. That's all.
Prabhupāda: How the nature, law of nature is being controlled? Where is your scientific...
Krishna Tiwari: I, I already agreed, and all scientists agree that they know nothing about it.
Prabhupāda: That's all. That you don't know.
Devotee (1): So then your process is imperfect. You admit. We're saying that there's a process which is perfect, and it's a process of receiving knowledge which is absolute, that is descending, and receiving that with a submissive attitude. And you're saying that by your sensuous endeavor with your different machines and instruments, you can ascend to the Absolute Truth. But the symptom of a person who is in knowledge is that he's satisfied, he's peaceful within, and we can understand that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness society is developing, is helping living entities, people, become satisfied within by receiving knowledge and actually coming to, to understand themselves and what's around them and so forth, whereas, let me ask you, how many people have actually come to this stage of peacefulness and knowledge, of being freed from the need for intoxication and so many different things, by your scientific method?
Prabhupāda: No, no. There is proof. There is proof. Because, because the laws of nature is being controlled, that is the proof there is somebody controlling. That is the proof.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, okay, suppose we grant that. Suppose we grant that, that that is the case, then what we do about it?
Prabhupāda: So that, you do not know that. We know that. That is our difference.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Suppose we believe that this is the case. Then we do about it?
Prabhupāda: That, then our knowledge is perfect and your knowledge...
Prabhupāda: Just... We, the difference is that your process is imperfect because you do not know exactly who is the controller of the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else does know either.
Prabhupāda: I, nobody... I say know, still you say nobody knows.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yeah, I agree. That's your belief, but I don't think you know that.
Prabhupāda: Why belief? I say your belief also. That there is no controller there, that is also your belief.
Krishna Tiwari: No. There is a controller. I say you don't know.
Prabhupāda: Why you are giving so much importance to your method of understanding?
Prabhupāda: No, very perfect. Very perfect.
Krishna Tiwari: Exactly what I'm saying to... Well that's what I'm saying.
Śyāmasundara: What is your standard of perfection?
Krishna Tiwari: What?
Śyāmasundara: What is your standard of perfection?
Krishna Tiwari: My, well my, to understand the law of nature, first thing. Now, when, when scientists have gone to understand the law of nature... (end)
Prabhupāda: You are not free. You are thinking so-called free. You are not free. You are under the stringent laws of nature. You are not free. You are thinking foolishly that you are free.
Father Tanner: But if I am not free...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...then I can't give up my freedom for religion.
Prabhupāda: You are free to some extent, because you are part and parcel of God. God is completely free. So because you are part and parcel of God, therefore you have got that minute freedom. That minute freedom, when you misuse for other purposes, then you fall down. But if you use that freedom for the service of the Lord... You have got freedom. You may serve the Lord, you may not serve. That is your freedom. But if you serve the Lord, then you become happy. If you do not serve the Lord, then you become unhappy.
Prabhupāda: Because from the śāstra we understand, karmāṇa, by work, one has to... Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). By prakṛti, by nature, as we make... Just like if we eat little more, so by the laws of nature, immediately there is indigestion.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot deny this adjustment. So why not...? I am sufferer of my karma. So according to my karma, I get a body,...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Haṁsadūta: And intoxication itself means that you are polluted. Toxic means poison. Poison means pollution. So if you indulge in intoxication, everything you do, say and think will be polluted. If you kill animals, the result is you're polluting nature's... There are laws of nature. Animal is part of nature. You're part of nature. So if you disturb nature, that means you're polluting the nature. And you are living in that nature. So you are suffering the reaction.
Schumacher: The Buddhists have got a good, a good formula on this, and...
Haṁsadūta: It's common sense. That's all.
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of Buddhist, Christian or Hindu. It is common sense philosophy.
Prabhupāda: This is their rascal's philosophy. They have no idea that by training one can forget sex life. So if you forget sex life, where is the question of abortion? Where is the question of abortion? But they cannot do that. Therefore, it is said adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram (SB 7.5.30). By nonrestricted sense enjoyment they are gradually going to the animal, lower grade of life. They cannot explain why there are so many varieties of life. They cannot explain. So this killer of baby within the womb, so the result will be that this man who is, I mean to say, indulging in abortion, he'll be put into the womb, and somebody will kill him. And as many wombs or babies he has killed, he'll have to take so many lives and being killed. So much so that it will be rather impossible for him for hundreds of years not to see the light. He'll remain in the womb and being killed. Does not know the nature's law. One cannot violate the nature's law. You can violate the state law. Suppose you kill somebody, you can escape by trick. But you cannot escape nature's law. As many times you have killed, so many times you have to be killed within the womb. This is nature's law.
Prabhupāda: Not advanced stage, life begins from the very beginning of sex. The living entity is very small. By nature's law, according to his karma, he's sent to the father's semina and that is injected and immediately the two secretions emulsify, the man's and the woman's, and it forms a body just like a pea. That is the formation of body. Now that pea-like form develops gradually. Then first manifestation is the nine holes. Everything is there in the Vedic literature. Nine holes, they have got nine holes. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. In this way gradually the senses develop and by the time seven months, everything is complete and the living entity's consciousness come back. Prior to the formation of the body, the living entity remains unconscious just like in chloroform, anaesthetic.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because that is the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: No, no, laws of nature if you want. If you want to be condemned, then laws of nature is there. Otherwise laws of nature is teaching you how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like police. Police business is to make you lawful. If you become lawful, there is no question of police. There is no question of police law. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Māyā is kicking you one after another so that you may come to sense that "This life is not good." But we are so foolish that we say, "No, it is good." Yan maithunādi. "There is sex life. Oh, it is very good." This is the position.
Devotee: You give the analogy in the Bhagavad-gītā that it's like pouring gas onto a fire you're trying to put out.
Prabhupāda: No adjustment. That is another foolishness. You cannot adjust. Even you cannot adjust a moment of nature's law. You cannot adjust.
Yaśomatīnandana: You just discover it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No discovery. You do not know, arrangement. This is already there.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Practically they are fighting against the laws of nature, but sometimes they find pleasure in doing this.
Prabhupāda: That is childish. Just like they build with the sand palatial building, the children, and they take pleasure in it. That's all. That is children's pleasure. That is not sane man's pleasure. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). Māyā-sukhāya. This pleasure is māyā, and they are making humbug. Therefore they are vimūḍhān, vimūḍhān, all foolish men. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). The materialists, they have created a standard of happiness. That is māyā.
Prabhupāda: Again "trying," the same disease, "trying." (laughter) Same disease. Again "trying." That is called... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). They are simply struggle, struggling with the mind. That is their business. Prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. Because he is in this prakṛti, under the control of the material nature, prakṛti-sthāni—simply a struggle. And mental concoction: "Now we shall do it. Now we are trying. In future it will be done." Manaḥ. This is mind, mental concoction. Prakṛti is doing their own duty, by nature's law. Now, by nature's law, the winter season is coming. Stop it. Stop it. Make it summer season. What you can do? Why so many cloths are required? Turn it into summer. You cannot do anything. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi... (BG 3.27). The prakṛti is going on, doing its own duty. You cannot check. Now the sun is rising. Now make it dark. Or in the darkness, ask the sun, "Get up." Where is your power? And still you are thinking, that "We are scientists. We are advancing." All foolishness. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). What you can do? You cannot even know how many stars and planets are there. Still unknown.
Prabhupāda: Then that is your mistake. In the laws of nature there is no mistake. There is no mistake. Your mistake. Just like in the railway carriage there is first-class, second-class, third-class. So you have purchased third-class ticket. By mistake, you can go to the first-class and just give him, but you will not be allowed to stay there. So it is your mistake. But these first-class, second-class, third..., that is not a mistake. That is arrangement. Similarly, these varieties... God is so clever that He knows that so many mistakes can be done, and so many varieties are there. As you commit mistake, you enter... "You come here. It is ready." And it is very exact mathematically calculated. Because the nature is working in three modes, so you mix up these three modes, it becomes three into three equal nine, and again you multiply nine into nine, equal to eighty-one. Again eighty-one into eighty-one. So many varieties come. Therefore generally it is taken, 84 million varieties. 8, 400,000. That is already there. Just like government creates a prison house. Although the city is not constructed, but they construct a prison house.
Prabhupāda: That, ass is also satisfied. By unnecessarily carrying the load of the washerman, he is satisfied. Everyone is satisfied. Even the worms of the stool, he is satisfied. (laughs) That is nature's law. He is satisfied. So this satisfaction
Karandhara: The saying is "Even the pauper is proud of his penny."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is also... You see... In Vṛndāvana I showed you? The dogs were starving, but as soon as he gets another female dog, oh, he is satisfied. To have sex. Oh. You see. So is that satisfaction? He is starving. The belly has gone down, and still, he is satisfied with sex. You see.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's called illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is illusion. Actually, he is not satisfied.
Prabhupāda: That ignorance is there, but the hook... Not only out of ignorance, out of greediness. That if you become more greedy, he knows that there is sufficient food in the sea, but the rascal is greedy, he's taking another... Due to his rascaldom, he's dying. Greediness. So similarly, all arrangement is there, God-made. Even for human beings. But because they're rascals, they're greedy. They're greedy. Although their greediness cannot satisfy them, everyone is greedy because the law of nature is equal to everyone. If law of nature can supply food to the birds and beast and everyone, why not to the human beings? What human being has done? But they're rascal, greedy, therefore suffering. More, wants more. There is already food grains, milk, flowers, fruits, immense supply, but he'll cut the throat of another animal. Greedy. And they're suffering, committing sinful activities.
Prabhupāda: But, but there is no benefit. You are misusing your intelligence by skyscraper building, and they're using their intelligence to make a nest; but the benefit derived is equal. Therefore, in that sense you are less intelligence.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In other words, they never violate the laws of nature, but other..., we are backward, because we tried to fight against the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our disease.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they are more advanced.
Devotee (2): Practically you said that.
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Devotee (2): That the birds are living naturally.
Prabhupāda: Yeah, naturally. No... They have no discrimination. They have to abide by the laws of nature. But you have got discrimination; therefore you are punished.
Devotee (2): So we will attract the scientists by saying that we are both fools?
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Devotee (2): Before we were saying that we were both fools. Is that the way to attract the scientists?
Prabhupāda: No, no. That was argument. We are not fools; the scientist is fool. (devotees laugh) We are educated.
Devotee (2): But how we can get them to come, to take prasādam?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are... Because they are, they have been bound up by the laws of nature, so these qualities they have developed.
Prajāpati: But why are they so very puffed up and proud even with these defects, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: That is the, that is the... Therefore we say they are rascals.
Karandhara: Arrogant.
Prabhupāda: Arrogant. They have no qualification; still, they are puffed up. That is rascaldom.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to accept one law-maker.
Bali Mardana: They say, "the law of nature," but they refuse to acc...
Prabhupāda: Any law, as soon as you say, "law", you must have to accept a law-maker. Any law. Otherwise, there is no... Just like the law is: "When there is red light, you must stop." You don't see any person, but if you don't stop, then you go to a person who will prosecute you. You don't see the person here, but if you violate, you'll have to go to a person who will fine you, "You rascal, you have done this." So ultimately a puruṣa, person.
Prabhupāda: Eh. You are inferior. You are being kicked every moment by the laws of nature. How do you claim that you are superior? Why you are covering? Because you are kicked by the laws of material nature.
Umāpati: There's no complex.
Prabhupāda: There is no question... You have to cover yourself.
Bali Mardana: They say that...
Prabhupāda: How do you say you are superior? You are inferior. As soon as you cover your body, you are inferior.
Prabhupāda: Medical science has given the chance of committing sinful activities. That's all. And the medical man and the man who is committing such sinful activities, they will suffer. This is the advantage of their so-called medical science. They do not know. They have, they have sanctioned this abortion, medical science. Means they have given chance to commit sinful activities. That's all. So so many rascaldom is going on all over the world, and we, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, wants to stop all this nonsense, and save the humanity from going down to the animal kingdom. That is our program. They are... They have become just like animals, and next life they are going to be animals. That law they do not know. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). They do not believe in dehāntara-prāptiḥ. That is their nonsense. And now, what kind of dehāntara, change of body? That also they do not know. That is also going to happen. If you become like cats and dogs, you get cats and dogs life. There is nature's law.
Prabhupāda: Simply they fight and loss of life and money, energy. War must be for the good. If there is some war, it must be for some good. But where is that goodness? The world remains the same; rather, it becomes more worst. Then why fight? But they will fight. Because both of them demons, they will fight. But not for any good result. War means... War is not bad. Just like disease. If somebody is diseased, then he becomes healthy. The whole polluted situation of the body becomes repaired. Just like when you get a boil or dysentery, all the poisons of the body, they become purged out. Then your health becomes nice. That is the law, nature's law. Similarly, war or famine or pestilence, they are meant for purging out all undesirable men. But the demonic principle is so strong that it is not becoming so. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this approach. The Americans have placed in their constitution, "In God we Trust."
Prabhupāda: Yes. So, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That is already there. So we have to act by the order of Kṛṣṇa, not by the votes of the madmen. Just see the fun. Everyone is under control. Who is free? It is simply illusion. They are thinking, "I am free." Nobody is free. Under the stringent laws of nature, and still, he is thinking, "I don't care for God." This is madness. This is madness. Already under the laws of God, but still, he's protesting, "No, I don't care for God. There is no God." So we have to save these madmen from further deterioration. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Umāpati: Can a living entity ever lose his existence?
Prabhupāda: What you have studied in the Bhagavad-gītā?
Prabhupāda: But they do not go. In Bombay also, municipality has constructed big buildings, but they do not go. They hire it, yes, they get, to some gentleman. They get some fifty rupees and "All right, you take." And he lives in a hut. Yes. This is practical. They don't like. Just like a worm in the stool. You take it away. He will again, again go. (laughter) Again go there. You are very philanthropist: "Oh, my dear friend, why you are in the stool? Come on, here." "No, no, sir, I will go there again." How can you check it? Nature's law.
Karandhara: Well, they say it can be checked by time and education.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that time, you wait for time. By that time you will die.
| Page Title: | Laws of nature (Conversations 1968 - 1973) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 11 of Dec, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=78, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 78 |