Ali: Even to be attentive, to pay a lot of attention.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but that is also good, but if one is twenty-four-hours attentive, that is better.
Ali: But we tend to forget things that we don't see.
Hari-śauri: They don't see God, so the tendency is to forget.
Prabhupāda: Why you don't see God? When you see the picture of God, you don't see God? When you see the picture of your father, don't you see your father? You see or not? Suppose you have got picture of your father. When you see the picture, do you see your father or not?
Ali: Well, I see him physically.
Prabhupāda: Physical, everything is physical, subtle and gross. Suppose I am seeing you face to face. So I remember your face when you are not here, I am thinking of you, I am not seeing you? This is also physical. I am seeing with the mind, I am seeing with the eyes. So what is the difference between eyes and mind? They are all physical. Why do you take only the eyes as physical, not the mind? There are physical elements—earth, water, air, fire, mind, intelligence, ego. They are all physical. So either see with your eyes or see with your mind, it is physical.
Ali: Is the seeing important?
Prabhupāda: No, important. No, because if you have no eyes to see spiritual, you have to see physically, and they are all physical. Either you see with your eyes or touch with your hand or smell with your nose or lick up with your tongue, everything is physical.
Ali: I can feel the presence of the thing dominating things.
Prabhupāda: Presence is there, because just like a nice mango. So you cannot appreciate this mango simply by seeing. Natural tendency when you get a good mango, you smell. So why not see? Sufficient? Why you smell? So these are all misconceptions. Different things have to be realized in different processes. Suppose you are a good singer, I see you. So I cannot appreciate simply by seeing you. I shall ask you, "All right, please sing one song." When I hear you, then I shall appreciate. Is it not? So the physical experience by different senses, gross and subtle senses.
Ali: Our senses are imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Senses are imperfect always. Therefore we have to develop the perfect senses. That is spiritual. Just like you are working with your hands, this is physical. But this hand is not working. The spirit soul within the body, he is working. As soon as he is out, what is the value of your hand? When the spirit soul is out of your body, then I am asking you, "Mr. Ali, Mr. Ali, get up." Who is hearing? Your ear is there, but you cannot hear, finished. Therefore the spiritual senses, that is real sense. Do you follow what I say? You have got ear, but when the spirit soul is out of your body, in spite of possessing this physical ear, you cannot hear.
Ali: I believe in this one because when I dream...
Prabhupāda: No, believe or not believe, these are facts, that physical senses are not absolute.
Ali: That's exactly what I mean. It's so obvious.
Prabhupāda: Physical senses not absolute; it is the spiritual senses that acts through the physical instrument and utilize it.