Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says, antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām: (BG 7.23) "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary." So does this mean that these less intelligent people who are simply interested in temporary benefit... Even they don't worship demigods per se, it could be anyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Demigods... Yes. Just like one who is trying to get some good service. So they are worshiping this boss, that boss. That is also demigod, because without flattering some boss he cannot get some good job; without flattering the voters he cannot get the ministership. That is demigod worship. They have to flatter somebody. Why this Ram Gulab has gone to...? He has to flatter there. This is going on. The big bosses in the United Nation, they are demigods, supposed to be. He thinks, "If I flatter them, then I will be able to keep my position." But he does not think that this position will be lost after some years. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. He has forgotten his eternal life, Kṛṣṇa, and he is flattering these demigods. That's all. What he will gain? He will die. That's all. At the time of death what these United Nation leaders will do?
Cyavana: But we can improve the standard for future generations, for our children.
Prabhupāda: First of all you improve your own condition; then think of future generation. You are going to hell and thinking of future generation. You are going to die, and you are thinking of future generation. Who is your future generation? That is another foolishness. This is asuric civilization. Asuric civilization.
Cyavana: Hope against hope.
Prabhupāda: Hope, that is also foolishness. Apart from future generation, you have got sons. So you are taking very great care. Does it mean that his life is guaranteed? So what you can do? You cannot do anything for your present generation, what to speak of future generation. You cannot do. Suppose your son is sick. As father, you have given first-class medicine, first-class physician. Does it guarantee that he will live? Then what can you do? Is it in your control that your son will live because you have given good physician, good medicine? Is it guarantee that your son will live? Then what can you do? You cannot do anything for your present generation, and you are thinking of future generation, which you do not know, who is your future generation. At the present moment you know this is your generation, you cannot do anything, and you are thinking of future generation. How foolish you are.
Cyavana: Well, we may have to accept the laws of nature, but at least we can...
Prabhupāda: And therefore, what is the meaning of taking care of future generation or this generation?
Cyavana: At least we can make it comfortable in this world.
Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. You have already given good medicine, good physician. And why he is dying? You cannot do anything. That is your position. You may try to do, but that is futile. Ultimate is different.
Cyavana: So by giving him medicine, maybe I can give him a better chance...
Prabhupāda: "Maybe" can be, but it is not guaranteed. You cannot do anything.
Cyavana: But at least I should try.
Prabhupāda: Try. Foolishly you try whatever you like. That is another thing. But it is not under your control. You can try. That is your... Of course, you must try as a dutiful father, but you should know that you cannot take any guarantee or do anything, good or bad. That you have already said, "the destiny." That is prominent. That is prominent, not you.
Cyavana: The tendency of the humans...
Prabhupāda: You can do the best to train your child to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is in your power. That you can do. That is the best service, not anything else. That is not possible. If you become yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, and if you try to make your son Kṛṣṇa conscious, that you can do. And that is the duty, real duty. Other things, you cannot do anything. That is destiny. And if you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, then destiny can also be changed. This is the concession of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Destiny also can be changed. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). One who comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his karma is also changed.
Cyavana: Is that karma dovetailed?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cyavana: It's still there.
Prabhupāda: Still can be changed by bhakti. Just like one man is condemned to death. Nobody can change it, but the king can change it. Only by the mercy of king he can be saved, not otherwise. Even the judge who has punished him, he cannot do it. Whatever is ordered, there is order. He cannot change it. Similarly, if you become devotee, then your destiny can be changed. A devotee never is anxious to change his destiny. That is devotee's...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like Mahārāja Parīkṣit.
Cyavana: But if his destiny takes him away from Kṛṣṇa, then he is not...
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. If Kṛṣṇa desires, He can do anything. So a devotee does not interfere with Kṛṣṇa's desire.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We know that Kṛṣṇa desires everyone to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is... Kṛṣṇa says. That is His desire. Sarva-dharmān pa..., mām ekāṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is Kṛṣṇa's desire.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So Kṛṣṇa is not causing everyone to forget Him.
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa's desire is open to everyone. We don't accept it. That is our obstinacy. Kṛṣṇa says "There is soul." We do not say. "No, there is no soul." This is our position. Kṛṣṇa says, "Within this body there is soul," and we don't accept. We'll argue. This is our position. He is giving direct instruction, "Yes, there is soul," but we don't accept. Disobedient.
Cyavana: But if Kṛṣṇa knows that we will suffer in this material world, why does He let us go away from Him? Why doesn't He keep us there?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Cyavana: If Kṛṣṇa knows that we will suffer here in this material world if we come here, why does He let us go?
Prabhupāda: Why the thief goes to the prisonhouse? He knows that "If I go to the prisonhouse, I will be put into distress."
Cyavana: But the government is not strong enough to force him not to go, not to steal.
Prabhupāda: Why government is not strong enough?
Cyavana: The government doesn't have the power to control everyone. But Kṛṣṇa can...
Prabhupāda: No. Even if he's strong enough, you disobey. The government has made so many things that you cannot steal, the iron chest, but still, you are clever enough that you do.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The independence is there. Sometimes people ask, Prabhupāda, that if the spiritual world is ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12), full of bliss, then how is it that, somehow or another, we've left that blissful situation and come into this hellish...
Prabhupāda: This argument we have talked many times. Everyone knows that out of prisonhouse freedom is there. Why he goes to the prisonhouse? Everyone knows it. Why does he go to the prisonhouse?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not by choice. He is placed there.
Cyavana: Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. If He wanted to check us from going there, He could check us from going into the prison, from offending.
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa has given you independence. So you are.... By mentality, you have to suffer. Suppose if a child wants to do something, play, if you check it, check it, then he will go mad. Just like mother Yasoda was showing stick to Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa became so much afraid, he (she) became immediately anxious: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has too much anxiety. He may fall sick." So immediately throw away. So this is father-mother's affection.
Cyavana: So actually it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He allows us to come here, free ourselves from...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has given you little freedom. He doesn't want to take your freedom.
Harikeśa: You gave two examples in Los Angeles about the master, big master, like president of DuPont walking his dog. The president of DuPont is walking his dog in Central Park. The dog makes him go this way and this way and this way. And you said we are just passing stool and urine in the material world, and Kṛṣṇa is just letting us run here and there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anumantā. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, anumantā, upadraṣṭā.
Cyavana: In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta in one of your purports you gave the example of Paramātmā being compared to when there is a circus in a village the government sends one inspector to watch over the activities. Then, when the circus goes, he is no longer there. Could you explain it? (pause)