Prabhupāda: Sannyā... Yes, brahmacārī: b-r-a-h-m-a-c-h-a-r-y, this is brahmacārī. Then gṛhastha: g-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha. H-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha. G-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a. Is that clear? Gṛhastha. Then vānaprastha: v-a-n-a-p-r-a-s-t-h-a, vānaprastha. Then sannyāsī: s-n-n-y-a-s-i, sannyāsī. Four divisions. These four divisions, and there are other four orders of social system. That is according to work, division according to work and quality. Just like the brāhmaṇas, b-r-a-h-m-a-i-n-s, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of the society. The kṣatriyas, k-s-h-a-t-r-y-a-s, kṣatriyas. Kṣatriyas means persons who are interested in politics, in the management of the country, political affairs. They are called kṣatriyas. Similarly, there is the vaiśyas, v-a-i-s-y-a-s. Vaiśyas means the mercantile, productive class. Those who are engaged in producing grains or trade, milk, and in industry. Of course, industry, artisans, they are called, artists, śūdras. Anyway, any person engaged in producing for the needs of the society, they are called vaiśyas. And the worker class is called śūdra. So according to Vedic system, these are eight divisions. Unless the human society is divided into these eight divisions in terms of material and spiritual progress of life, that is not accepted as human society.
Industry (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, work.
Interviewer: I mean, are there any prohibitions as to what type of work? For example, would a follower of yours work in a war industry?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is no other work, he can work in war industry, because he has to live. After all, he must earn something. Without earning, how can he live? So if there is no better job, he can accept any job. What can be done?
Interviewer: You take no...
Prabhupāda: But if we can get a better job... Suppose the war industry or butcher industry... That is also an industry. So if somebody offers some job in the butchery, naturally we are not inclined to accept such job, but...
Interviewer: I believe in the Buddhist philosophy that there are some professions like slaughtering animals and so on which are...
Prabhupāda: So far Buddhist philosophy is concerned...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: Beautiful. It's very industrious. It's marvelous.
Prabhupāda: Next book is coming, Nectar of Devotion.
Allen Ginsberg: What will that be, your own writings?
Prabhupāda: No, it is the authorized translation of Rūpa Gosvāmī's book, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu.
Allen Ginsberg: Whose...?
Prabhupāda: Rūpa Gosvāmī, Lord Caitanya's principal disciple.
Allen Ginsberg: Uhuh.
Prabhupāda: Rūpa Gosvāmī. There are six Gosvāmīs, direct disciples of Lord Caitanya. Er, not, six Gosvāmīs and three other confidential.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Oh, industrial house. Industrial house.
Guest (2): It's called "Industry House."
Prabhupāda: Industry, that's all. Industry House. Industry House Dhruva's full name, you know?
Devotee (3): R.C.
Prabhupāda: R.C. Dhruva, Secretary to Mr. R.D. Birla, Industry House, Church Reclamation...
Haṁsadūta: Bombay, West.
Prabhupāda: Bombay.
Yamunā: Is Parliament in session again?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Yamunā: I was thinking that Parliament goes in and out of session, and I wondered if they remembered this if Parliament was in session again.
Giriraja: No.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prof. Kotovsky: But at the same time, something has to be done in India itself. In what line, if you... One may call it Westernization from this introduction of technical revolution in all spheres of Indian life, in agriculture, industry, etc...
Prabhupāda: Now, this picture... This is Viṣvarūpa. It was shown to Arjuna. Now, Arjuna, before understanding Bhagavad-gītā, was a fighter, warrior. And after understanding Bhagavad-gītā, he remained a fighter. So we don't want to change the position. Just like you are a respectable professor, teacher. We don't say that you change your position. We have come to convince you about our philosophy. That's all. So just like the same example: Arjuna, he was denying to fight, "Kṛṣṇa, I do not like to kill my relatives. I don't want this kingdom." But he was taught Bhagavad-gītā. And at the end, when Kṛṣṇa inquired, "What is your decision now?" he said, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73): "Yes, I shall act accordingly, as You say." That means his consciousness was changed. He remained a fighter. He was a fighter, he remained a fighter, but he changed his consciousness. We want that. We don't want to disturb the present condition of the society. No. But we try to make them understand that "There is a great necessity of you to understand this consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is our goal.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Now, our simple philosophy is that we are spirit soul. We are eternal. You are eternal. I am eternal. Everyone is eternal. We are changing our body, transmigrating from one body to another. And that means repetition of birth and death, but we are eternal. Why we are in such botheration of repetition of birth and death? Not only that, sometimes in some species of life, may be very high position, sometimes in low position. Suppose somebody is American, and the next life, if he becomes a tree, if he becomes a dog... He may become a demigod also. There is possibility. Just like in future you may be a... (break) ...understand this movement thoroughly and take it seriously. It is for good welfare, for very good welfare. Now, in Europe, America, here also, so many frustrated young boys, they are coming to be practically of no value to the country. In America I see thousands of hippies, they are doing nothing. So what is the future of the country? If the flowers of the country, young boys, they do not take interest in anything, in administration, in industry, then what is the future? From economic point of view I have studied that America, for want of sufficient workers, they are importing goods from Japan. This is not very good sign. Why such a big country, American country, why they should import? But they are obliged to import.
Prabhupāda: No. Their policy is that they want to keep the people in that way-rascals and fools—then they'll vote and they'll enjoy the political power. That is their policy. Actually they do not want to see their countrymen elevated good character. They don't want to see. If the people become... Just like the British government in their time, they wanted to give education. Their education means A-B-C-D, half-mediocre, so that the government may be run on. They require clerks, servants, so much, not high education. As soon as there was question of high education, they stopped. And actually it so happened that as soon as the Indian people became highly educated and they learned the history of the world, they kicked them out. So these people, these rascals, Nixon and company, they want to keep the people in ignorance so that they'll get vote and enjoy. If the people become intelligent brāhmaṇas, then immediately he'll be kicked out. What is his value? He has no value. This is policy. They don't want to see that people become elevated in knowledge. That is not their policy. Therefore, they do not agree. Actually they are seeing that "These Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they're so nice character, they're religion, God conscious, so if all people become like this, then where we are?" Because as soon as people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they'll noncooperate with the slaughterhouse, liquor industry, gambling, illicit sex. They will noncooperate. Then the whole plan of civilization will be collapsed.
Ātreya Ṛṣi(?): Their biggest industry is the war industry.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Everything.
Pañca-draviḍa: I have experienced that directly in India, Prabhupāda, because I'm working with these merchants all the time, and the government is nationalizing and taking over one industry after another. They took over the control of flour, they took over the control of sugar, they've already got rice, then they took over the exportation of textiles. And I say, "Don't you have anything in your Constitution to prevent this?" They said, "No. We have voted in the government for six years; they can do as they like. The only way is to wait six years and vote them out again. But there is no provision..."
Prabhupāda: The future is not very nice. And government management means no one's servant.
Pañca-draviḍa: No what?
Prabhupāda: No one's servant. Everyone's servant means no one's servant. They are no one's servant.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So in this way my connection became developed with Gauḍīya Maṭha. Then, gradually the process began, hariṣye tad-dhanaṁ śanaiḥ. (chuckles) I wanted to become very big businessman and there was good opportunity. I was very nicely associated with the chemical industry of India. Dr. Bose's laboratory, Bengal Chemical, V.K. Farr (?), and all of them, they liked my business organization. Then I started big laboratory in Lucknow. So that was golden days, but gradually everything becomes (indistinct). And at last, my Allahabad business was lost. It was not lost on account of some, my debts, I had to hand it over to Dr. Kartik Chandra Bose because I was his agent. So I had some debts, so I tell the, "All right, you take this business." In this way, that Prayāg Pharmacy was lost. So I was not going to, I was sitting at home, but this Jājābara Mahārāja, at that time Sarvesva (?) brahmacārī and Atulananda brahmacārī, they used to come to take their subscription, and they were requesting that "Why don't you come to our maṭha? Why don't you come to our maṭha? You are now free." So, I used to visit their temple. That was not far away from my house...
Prabhupāda: That they can continue. But the spirit of Vedic culture should be accepted. It is not that because one has to accept the Vedic culture, he has to stop industry or material progress. Not like that. Bhagavad-gītā does not teach that. Simply to change the consciousness. Therefore we have named the Society "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness." One has to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be adjusted. Not the mode of life should be changed. Little change. Just like we recommend that four things should be avoided: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. So to give up these four kinds of activities, which are considered to be sinful, that is not very difficult. That is not very difficult. These English and, I mean to say, European and American boys, they are young men. They have given up. So in the society, if there is prevalence of sinful activities, then there will be reaction. So these four things are considered sinful activities: illicit sex, meat, unecessarily killing of animals, and intoxication, and gambling. Yatra pāpas catur-vidhaḥ. These are four kinds of sinful activities. So Vedic civilization means they should be freed from the sinful activities. Then other things will automatically come.
Prabhupāda: This is government's duty. To see, "Why you are claiming vaiśya? If your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, give protection to the cows..." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaiśyas are big, big (indistinct), big, big zamindars. You see.
Reporter: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupāda: Similarly brāhmaṇas. Nehru. He is brāhmaṇa, but what did he do as a brāhmaṇa? But he was the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy.
Reporter: Hm. When such... When such situation arises where the king is no more representing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the vaiśyas are no more following that duty...
Prabhupāda: This is, this is... This world is material world. And (aside:) Why don't you come here? You can take another pad.
Prabhupāda: That, that... Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it to... Village organization. He started that Wardha Ashram. But you have rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal—to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal. That "Don't go to the city, town, for so-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food, and be satisfied there." That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and engage in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the folly.
Prabhupāda: You can go on with your industries. You can go on with your university. But side by side, you become competent to know what is God and how to love Him. Then your life is perfect.
Mother: I could mention a lot of names that (are) still very close to God and brilliant men in science... Where would we be without our scientists, without our doctors, medicine? They all have to go to university and get a degree before they...
Prabhupāda: That I say. You get.
Mother: Yes, but we need them.
Prabhupāda: You get.
Yogeśvara: How should society be organized in order to achieve these goals?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You organize that there should be division of different classes of men. The first class men, the second class men, the third class men, fourth class men. The first-class men means the most intelligent class of men. Second-class men means those who are dealing in politics. Third-class men means those who are dealing in economics, industry, trade. And fourth-class men means they have no intelligence to take up all these things, but they work only. But all of them should cooperate. For the general benefit of the whole human society. We have got engagement for the first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Just like we have got in our body the brain, the arms, the belly, and the legs. But all of them are cooperating for keeping the body fit. Similarly, the first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men should cooperate for achieving the end, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Guest (2): Without any selfish interest.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You remain servant of Kṛṣṇa. Just like a servant discharges his duty very faithfully for the satisfaction of the master, similarly, you have got industry, if you work in this industrial work for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa... Just like this boy behind you, he is working somewhere, getting good salary. But I had told him that "some percentage you must give to Kṛṣṇa." He is regularly giving.
Prabhupāda: Śocati means in everything he laments. "Hai hai, I have lost so much things, I have not these things, I have not that thing." So at the present moment, all the people, they are so dissatisfied that they are all śūdras. Śūdra is always in want. So who is not, at the present moment, not in want? Everybody's in want. Therefore everybody is a śūdra now. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. And that is his qualification, always feeling in want, śocati. And his work is to serve others, master. A brāhmaṇa will not work under anybody. A kṣatriya will not work under anybody. Nowadays the industrial development has taken place because people are śūdras. They want some service. So-called technologists and laborers, and everything. Everyone is searching after good job. He cannot live independently, just like a dog. A dog cannot live independently. He must have a master. Then he is happy. Is it not? Otherwise it is street dog. So modern education is that they are creating śūdras, to become dependent on others. And therefore modern economic development is taking place because there are so many people, they are prepared to give them service. Suppose in your bank, if you withdraw from the service, the bank will stop. Industry will stop. So because there is no such division as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Everyone is śūdra. Therefore this economic development, so-called economic development, has become possible. But in spite of all this economic development, because people are śūdras, they cannot be happy. Because śocati, they will lament, strike. Even they are getting thousands of rupees, strike. Even they get five hundred thousands of rupees, still there will be strike. Because they are śūdras.
Yaśomatīnandana: Oh yes, they are a big company.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Bose's labora... Practically chemical industry was...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think it was Acarya Prafullacandra Raya, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that starting of chemical industry in the Bengali...?
Prabhupāda: Acarya Prafullacandra Raya was one of the director and this K.C. Bose was a managing director. Actually the life was given by Dr. Karttikacandra Bose to Bengal Chemical. But because Prafullacandra Raya was a famous chemist and he was attached to it, therefore his name become famous.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh.
Yaśomatīnandana: Also you mentio
Prabhupāda: That will be good for the people. Because large scale transaction is there, therefore the capitalists hoarding. Capitalists hoarding. Goods are there, everything is there. You pay black price, you get it. Then, when somebody's hoarding, he is not giving to the market. So if the large scale industry and trade becomes stopped, that is good for people.
Jagajjīvana: Does that mean the same amount of gold is here?
Prabhupāda: No, larger scale... Suppose if you want to store, say, thousand kilos or a thousand bags of rice, so you have to pay me gold. But you have no such gold. Therefore large scale industry will be stopped. Just see.
Karandhara: Then the price of rice would go very low.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you get actual price and actual value. Goods are there, any part of the world you..., there is enough commodity. But these rascals, they are hoarding, and they are not giving in right time. So people are suffering.
Prajāpati: They say like that.
Prabhupāda: No, we shall give engagement.
Prajāpati: Cattle industry, liquor industry, tobacco industry, all these big industries.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them be without industry. Come to us. We shall give them food. Yes. Just like that... What is that? Mṛgāri, Mṛgāri. He was thinking that "Unless I kill animals, how I will eat, I shall live?" And Nārada gave him, that "I will give you to eat. Come here." So he became Vaiṣṇava. So that is our propaganda." Stop this nonsense business. If you think that 'How you shall eat?' I shall give you eating. Come on. "This is our program." First of all you stop it. Then I will, see how I will give you." Just see. When I came first I was alone. I had no shelter, no food. And how we are maintaining now thousands of people, and giving them to eat, and nice shelter? How it is possible? It is possible. Because after all, Kṛṣṇa gives everything. So if they become Kṛṣṇized, everything will come. Why they bother about the sinful activities?
Viṣṇujana: Dhanañjaya. Like you said this morning, Dhanañjaya.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Dhanañjaya.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: What is your present service?
Guest (5): At present, I am serving in the steel plant, Hindustan Steel Industry.
Prabhupāda: Oh, steel plant.
Guest (5): And I want to, wish to dedicate my whole life to the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is very good proposal.
Guest (5): And I am a...
Prabhupāda: How far you are educated?
Guest (5):. As long as I will live, I will broom and clean the temple.
Prabhupāda: Very good. That's all right. You go on doing that.
Prabhupāda: That is philosophy. Darśana. Darśana means search out what is the ultimate. Jñānī ca bharatarṣabha (BG 7.16). Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārto 'rthārthī jñānī ca bharatarṣabha, arto 'rthārthī jijñāsur jñānī ca bharatarṣabha. These are philosophers. Even the ārtaḥ, even a distressed person, he is praying to the Supreme Authority, "My God, I am very much hungry. Kindly give me my daily bread." He's also philosopher, because he's searching out the Absolute Truth. He's philosopher. Not this Freud rascal, elaborating how to have sex life. So this kind of philosopher, they... What is called? In Bengali: vane haye śṛgāla rājā.(?) "In the jungle a jackal becomes a king." So because western people, they have no... They're all less than śūdras. So a Freud has become a philosopher. Vane haye śṛgāla rājā. "In the jungle, the jackal has become a king." That's all. What is knowledge there? It is that... The whole western world is going on for industry, for making money, eat, drink, be merry, wine and women. That's... They're all less than śūdras and caṇḍālas. This is the first time attempt is being made to make them human beings. Don't mind. I am using very strong words. That is the fact.
Makhanlal: What's the explanation then? They are slaughtering more cows in the United States, but there is still more fortunate situation there materially.
Prabhupāda: No, that is now dwindling. The hippies are coming out. So one day it will be finished. One day it will be finished. That... It has already begun. The future hope is now becoming hippies. So who will manage this? It is already there is a problem how to maintain the industry, how to... This has become a problem. So naturally, when the, there will be all hippies, not to work, then everything collapses. The so-called prosperity will be finished. (break) Nobody is working sincerely. Here also in India, all government servants, they do not work. The manager of the government coal company said that "The workers in the mine, they are not working. Therefore we have to increase the price." So now, everything dependent on one another, so if one side there is noncooperation, the whole thing will collapse. (break) ...college they don't work. One thing is that draft board chasing all young men. (end)
Prabhupāda: Mirzapur is rich people. They have got carpet industry. Mirzapur carpet is very famous. They manufacture and sell big, nice carpets. Just like Persian carpets. So similarly, Mirzapur carpet. Besides that, they have got many other businesses. So it is on the Ganges side and the healthy quarter also. (break) ...still, he is the biggest practitioner in Allahabad. He has offered his house. In old days he constructed it for four lakhs.
Gargamuni: Allahabad is an important place?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, Allahabad, very important. The UP high-court is there. Therefore all enlightened... University is there. All educated men of UP are in Allahabad. This Jawaharlal Nehru, Motilal Nehru, they were Allahabad men. Sarte(?) Bahadur Satru(?), big, big, well-known men, they are all... Pandita Madana Mohana Mahalabdha. All big, big politicians, they were Allahabad men. (break) ...times to print the books here. No action was taken. In the last five years, everyone tried and there was no result. Otherwise we can print all the books here.
Prabhupāda: Go on. (break) ...Tirupati. These rascals are getting money and investing for television.
Indian man (2): Industry.
Prabhupāda: You see? They should have given to us for distributing Kṛṣṇa consciousness all..., but these rascals will not do that.
Indian man (3): "In the Vedic scriptures, therefore, one is recommended to give charity to a brāhmaṇa."
Prabhupāda: Because they are not brāhmaṇa. All śūdras, Communist.
Dr. Patel: Janma jāyate śūdraḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Especially, especially that Andhra government is Communist government.
Prabhupāda: There cannot be any consistency amongst the politicians. So that is the defect, that the politicians are the heads, the leaders of the society, and they are in disagreement. Everyone has got his own ideal, and the fight is going on, and the poor man in the state, they are suffering. Just like in India they partitioned, Pakistan and Hindustan. It was arranged by the leaders, Jinnah and Jawaharlal Nehru. Especially Jinnah. The people are suffering. And the Britishers made partition in such a way that they will remain continually in war because everyone wants the necessities of life. The foodstuff is in Pakistan, and the industry is in India. So the Pakistan will suffer for want of industry, and India will suffer for want of food. This is British plan for partition. They had no business to divide the country, but they wanted to do it as a parting kick, that "You want independence. You will have independence, but you will remain perpetually in war." That was British policy. None of them are benefiting. Occasionally they are fighting and losing so much money and men, that's all, a political game. Similarly, Germany is divided. Ireland is divided. This is going on. People are fighting, fighting, fighting. Leaders should be so sober and honest that the people should live peacefully, without any anxiety, without any want.
Prabhupāda: They will not allow. On God's side, this unit, this planet, pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation)—everything is complete. You require water. They save three times water than the land. And the water is distributed over the land, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ so there will be sufficient food grains. And annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). And if there is sufficient to eat, have sufficient eatables to the animals and to the men, then everything is prosperous. So where is that arrangement? There is enough land, enough possibility, enough water. Now utilize them and produce food grain, eat nicely and live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our philosophy. Why there should be industry? You want to eat after all. Instead of eating this flesh, killing poor animals, why don't you produce food grains, fruits, flowers, food grain, and take milk from the animals and produce milk products, all nutritious food, all nice food, and be happy and remember God for His kindness. This is civilization. What is this nonsense civilization? Now there is petrol problem. I see so many buses, and not a single man, one or two men. And for two men a big huge bus is being run, and so much petrol is consumed unnecessarily. I have seen. I went from Nairobi to London in a plane—only five passengers.
Prabhupāda: In Africa and Australia, they are killing the animals and exporting. So in other countries they are getting meat to eat, and so they are very free to produce bolts and nuts by industry. They don't require to produce food because from Africa and Australia they are getting meat. This is going on. Instead of producing food, people are interested in producing motor car bolts and nuts. So why there should not be food scarcity? After all, you require to eat. But instead of starting industries, why don't you produce foodstuff? What is this civilization? Produce foodstuff. The animals will be nicely fed, and the men will be nicely fed.
Richard Webster: What civilization there is comes chiefly from the television, I'm afraid. I mean the public opinion is made by the television.
Atreya Ṛṣi: The television today is setting up the standard for the civilization, for today's civilization.
Richard Webster: But they talk about nothing but name war (?) and...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) pictures.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) pictures.
Richard Webster: It's much easier. They're producing more television sets (indistinct)
Yogeśvara: It's a great science. My mother is an executive in a public relations firm. Her business is to show products, goods, to people that otherwise they have no need for and to convince them that there is some value. It's a very big industry, especially in the United States, public relations, advertising. It's very psychological too. They use all kinds of psychological techniques for inducing people to take things they have no need for.
Prabhupāda: All right but thing is that after all our prime necessity is food. So why people are not engaged to produce food?
Richard Webster: Well, in Italy they don't like to work on the land any more. They all want to live in town.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the defect. That is the defect.
Richard Webster: Especially in Italy.
Prabhupāda: You do not want to live in the village, farm. In your country I am seeing. America, the farmer's son, they are leaving. They are not coming back to the country. In India also.
Yogeśvara: During your conversation with this gentleman, you mentioned that there was nowhere any sanction by God for industry or business. So does that mean that these workers in factories and industries, to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they could not go on with their work?
Prabhupāda: No. Our recommendation is that whatever position you are, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So even the workers in the factory, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the difficulty? Even in factory, they take some leisure hours. So why not sit down for five minutes, ten minutes, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Where is the difficulty? Apart from the work they are doing, we are recommending, "Whatever is done is done. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be all right." Where is the wrong?
Yogeśvara: But eventually it's understood they must stop their industry.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of stopping. If that is their livelihood, how they can stop it? That is not possible. But they can add this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra chanting. Then things will be adjusted. It is not possible to stop different methods of livelihood. That is not possible. If one can stop, it is well and good, but even he does not stop, he can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.
Yogeśvara: But ultimately isn't our idea that the city complexes shouldn't remain, that things should become more spread out to farm and rural areas?
Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. If this man is fed up with this industry, he can go back to village and produce his own food. But he is attached to this industrial activity because he is thinking that "We are getting more money for wine and woman and meat. Let me enjoy." That is the perfect, imp... But if he chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, his consciousness will be purified and he will be made not interested this kind of work. He will go back to village and produce food. This is French?
Atreya Ṛṣi: No. It is new, 62 the new American. (BTG?)
Yogeśvara: This was your idea, to put the temple buildings on the magazine. Jayādvaita wrote me about that.
Prabhupāda: Very good picture, encouraging, that so many devotees in one center. It is very much pleasing to me. I started single-handed.
Satsvarūpa: Because sometimes we say that actually we cannot change the course of the...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Our society will be ideal by practical application.
Satsvarūpa: If we stopped all the transportation industry, there would be huge unemployment. It would be a great...
Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not going to stop employment. We live like this. You see. If you like, you live like us.
Bhagavān: Example.
Prabhupāda: Example.
Satsvarūpa: Not that we dictate to the... Not that we are going to force everyone.
Prabhupāda: No, we are not going to force anyone. "Our mode of living is like this. If you like you can adopt." Just like we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are not forcing anyone that "You also, you must chant." No. We live like this.
Prabhupāda: Bomb will be utilized where there are big materialistic persons. Bombs are never thrown in the village.
Bhagavān: The bombs will be thrown in the big cities where the industry is.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Yogeśvara: The targets will be the cities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be finished first. The bombs are never used at the villages. Downtown, downtown. (laughter) The downtown will be first finished. I have got experience during the last war. The bombs were being thrown in Calcutta and almost all the bombs were thrown in downtown.
Bhagavān: They know they don't want to bomb the countryside or else how can they live?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our life is so nice. We are satisfied with eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam and chant whole day and night Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. What is the use of this industry and trade. And transport and politics. There is no need. Anartha. It is called anartha, unwanted things.
- anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād
- bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje
- lokasyājānato vidvāṁś
- cakre sātvata-saṁhitām
- (SB 1.7.6)
These are all anarthas, unwanted things. So to stop these anarthas is bhakti-yoga. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya. These rascals, they do not know. Therefore vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Vidvān, the most learned man Vyāsadeva has written this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: A girl is pregnant, suppose, then, during her pregnancy period, ten months, there is no sex, and unless the child becomes six months old, there is no sex. The thing is that in the modern world, sex life has become the only pleasure. They do not know anything else. Therefore everything is discredited. And another thing is they are afraid of keeping more than one wife for population. But if they produce sufficient food, where is the question of overpopulation? Another thing they have made, especially in the western world, they don't want to produce food because they know, "We shall kill one animal and eat. Why take so much trouble? Let me increase industry, and I shall push my button. Money will come. And the slaughterhouse there. We shall eat." So they are getting money. By money, they are getting women to the choice. They are getting food, meat, and they're enjoying drinking. So money has become the whole thing. "Bring money some way or other and enjoy." This is the purport of civilization.
much land. No one is working. 'Cause by machine, they can work so quick on the land. (break)
Prabhupāda: This should be exemplary, that our community shall live in this way and save time for spiritual advancement of life. This example should be shown to the whole world, that "Here is a community. They have no problem, and they are simply interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This will be the idea. Is it possible?
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "They do not do any industry. They do not kill cows. They do not go to cinema. They do not have illicit sex. They don't drink. No problems. Simply they're eating very nicely and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." Show this example. At least, in this fool's paradise. They are thinking it is paradise. And the paradise is lost every ten years or fifteen years by the bombing. German bombs the France, and France bombs the... This is their paradise. So let them understand that "You are all fools. You are fool's paradise. This is life, what we are doing." Teach them so that the fools will understand what is life. They are manufacturing atom bomb. Russia is hiding himself.
Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā, yes.
Guest (2): We were very interested in your comments on the dairy industry in particular. Dr. Harrap is in charge of the dairy research. How do you relate your strong interest in dairy products to modern thinking on cholestrol and similar problems? This doesn't disturb you?
Satsvarūpa: There are modern theories that milk is actually harmful.
Dr. Harrap: Well, that butter...
Dr. Muncing: The milkfat and...
Dr. Harrap: Yes, milkfat.
Prabhupāda: Milk is harmful? How it is harmful? If it is harmful why you are giving milk to the child?
Dr. Harrap: Well, you should... The advice is that you keep your general level of fats down, but of the fats that you take, you should increase the ratio between polyunsaturated and saturated. But there is quite a development of milk industry in parts of India. The complex near Annakadana(?), I think, is a very good example of this, isn't it, of the, I believe, the cooperative dairy complex.
Prabhupāda: No, practically also we see. Formerly big, big saintly person they used to live in the forest, and their livelihood was fruits and milk. They used to keep cows and draw milk from them, and whatever fruits are available in the forest, and they have given us these literatures, Vyāsadeva. So the... He has written Mahābhārata, one hundred thousand verses and similarly, this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he has given us eighteen thousand verses. And each verse is full of so grave meaning that if you study, it will take months and months together. So they developed such nice brain simply by drinking milk and fruits.
Madhudviṣa: Well, in Australia there is vast areas which cannot be cultivated, like deserts and semi-deserts. The gentleman's contention is that if we try to grow grains in a semi-desert area it would throw off the balance of the natural, the natural pulse of the earth, let us say, and it would cause havoc in other fields. One of the basic things that our spiritual master is putting forward is that if we put an emphasis on producing food grains and milk and vegetables to live on, concentrating on those points instead of complicating our lives with great industries for cosmetics and film industries and things that are really not essential to us... There's people that don't have the essentials and other people who have all the trappings of the modern technological science. Our spiritual master's contention is that real happiness lies in simple living and high thinking and this is the education that we're trying to put forward. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...these are all misconceptions because I am not this body. I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit... They are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, white, black. Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they are dividing, this designation. So this knowledge that so long the spirit soul is there in the body, it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body?
Prabhupāda: This industry is horrible work. Simply by tilling your ground you get food grains, and keep some cows, you get milk—your economic problem is solved. Why such big, big industries? Ugra-karma. Then? Go on.
Cāru:
- kāmam āśritya duṣpūraṁ
- dambha-māna-madānvitāḥ
- mohād gṛhītvāsad-grāhān
- pravartante 'śuci-vratāḥ
- (BG 16.10)
"The demoniac, taking shelter of insatiable lust, pride and false prestige, and being thus illusioned, are always sworn to unclean work, attracted by the impermanent."
Prabhupāda: The big two wars of the world happened only on account of this industry. Do you know that? The cause is the big, big industry. Germany industrial, they produce goods. They must have market. But when they go to sell, there is no market. Britishers will not allow to sell them. The Britisher will take, purchase from them, and stamp it "Made in England" and sell it. And this is the cause of two big war. Therefore German declare twice war. Disaster.
Prabhupāda: I think you missed that verse, jagato ahitāya. Anyway, these are the description of demonic activities. So this is practical. The last two disastrous war was waged only for this industry. This is the cause. German, they are actually in Europe very intelligent and their machine products and other things, they make very nice things. At least, I have got experience, German chemicals are first-class chemical. So they manufacture and British occupied the half of the world in their colonization, whole Africa, and they controlled India and China, Japan, yes, China, Burma, Ceylon, Australia. So these poor people, they manufactured. They have got goods enough; where to sell? As soon as they go to the British territories, "No, you cannot sell. If you want to sell, then hundred percent duty." So price increase. This was the grudge. Everyone knows. This is the cause of two wars. The jagato ahita. Now, why so much? You require a scissor? Go to a blacksmith and pay something. He'll make a scissor.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Hṛdayānanda: ...ask a lot that if there could be a Kṛṣṇa conscious society, would this mean to stop the industry and technology?
Prabhupāda: Industry, technology you can continue, but practically it has no use. (break) Just like there is the bench, you can sit down on the ground, and to sit down little comfortably you manufacture the bench. So for sitting down, you can utilize the ground, but you are unnecessarily wasting your time and manufacturing... This is industry. (break) ...philosophy is that we have to save time for becoming fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our necessity. And if we divert our energy for sitting down comfortably, then time is wasted. That... There is natural mattress, and there is a natural pillow, so why should you manufacture pillow and mattress? This is Sukadeva Gosvāmī. And there is natural food, fruits. So... And if you want still nice home, go to the cave. It is already made. Why should you waste your time? This is the Bhāgavata philosophy. But they are wasting time simply how to live in nice apartment, how to manufacture nice mattress, pillow. This is... So the whole philosophy is: save your time and make your life perfect within this short duration of life which you have obtained in this human form of life. Durlabhaṁ manusaṁ janma. It is very rarely you have got. Utilize it. And if you don't utilize, if you waste your time in these bodily comforts and next life you become a cat and dog, then what is the benefit? They do not understand this.
Brahmānanda: It is difficult to come to that understanding, that actually, those who are the leaders are not to be trusted.
Prabhupāda: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government. You cannot... Any honest man cannot stay with these government men. That is not possible at the present age. Any government. Unless... Just like first-class rogue, your Nixon, he became the president. Because he was a first-class rogue, he became the president. So unless you are first-class rogue, you cannot stay within the circle of government men. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. And their business will be to eat up the vital force of the people. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajā sarve rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. This is the statement. And people will be harassed. On account of their godlessness, they will be harassed by three things: famine, no rain, and taxation. Taxation by the government, and there will be no rain, there will be famine, no food, and they will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their family and go away, gacchanti giri-kananam, will go, enter into the hills and forest, giving up their hearth and home. This is Kali-yuga. And this is due to their godlessness. On account of this, then the democracy, means anyone, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, anyone who becomes powerful, he will capture the government post. So the śūdras, they are now powerful. Śūdras. Industry means śūdra. So they will capture the governmental power. Just like Communist.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes the argument is put forward that in places where's there is not sufficient food and shelter and things like this, these problems should be solved first before the problem of spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why don't you solve? There are so many land. Come here and grow food. Grow fruit. That is... That is the desire of Kṛṣṇa. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Produce food and eat in sufficiently, be strong, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Why you are producing bolts and nuts, tire and tubes? Eat. Rascal. They do not know that first of all you must eat. No, everyone is engaged in industry. Why? Kṛṣṇa does not say that "Take to industry." Kṛṣṇa says, "Produce foodstuff." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you produce foodstuff, then both your animals, yourself, will be happy, becoming strong. Why do they manufacture other things? All these people are engaged in manufacturing, and nobody is manu..., er, growing food. Therefore the price of food grain is rising. Suppose I am growing food, and you are not growing, so you have to purchase from me. I'll ask, "You have to pay this price." And you have to pay. And if you grow your own food, there is no such question. The simple economic problem, solution, this rascal cannot take. If you grow your own food, I grow my own, then who is going to purchase? The price will be reduced automatically. If you have no customer, then you have to reduce your price. But they do not understand even the simple thing that "God has given us enough land to produce food grain, and we must eat." They do not understand this. And still, they are scientist, philosopher, politician. Just see. That is the difficulty. All rascals, fools, they are leading the whole human society.
Nalinī-kānta: So we say that one should live very simply, produce his own food, and chant.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then avoid all problems.
Nalinī-kānta: So if we are given charge of the society, we should dismantle all this industry, all these cities...?
Prabhupāda: No. We're not going to. But we can manage how to do it. First of all give me. I'll say how to manage. (laughter) We'll not create any problem. We do not wish to destroy anything.
Nalinī-kānta: Just like we have big printing press and incense factory.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Nalinī-kānta: But it is all managed nicely.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...mediately manage. "Stop all these worker illicit sex, intoxication, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." The whole atmosphere will change. The production will be increased. There will be no dissatisfaction among the worker and the capitalists. Immediately everything will be solved. Now the competition is going on that the capitalist is exacting as much money from their labor, and he is spending it for wine and women, and the worker is seeing that "Our money, he's spending. Why not ourself? So let us form a communist party. Let us fight." This is going on. But they do not know how to spend money, śūdras. When a śūdra gets money, he'll spend for wine and women. That's all. He does not know that it should be spent for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that this war will destroy the demonic civilization.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Does that mean that it'll destroy all the cities and all the industries?
Prabhupāda: War means destruction of all cities. That is natural. You have got experience in Europe so many times.
Haṁsadūta: Cities and industries.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Haṁsadūta: Cities and industries.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the main target.
Haṁsadūta: Nobody's interested in a farm. (break)
Jayādvaita: ...endeavor, pure devotees are automatically expert in politics, economics, everything.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jayādvaita: Without separate endeavor, a pure devotee is automatically expert in everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guru-kṛpa: The Scandinavian countries are not so poor. Denmark, Sweden...
Prabhupāda: They are industrious, and they have got resources.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they have developed more recently, I think. They were not colonizing.
Prabhupāda: No, the colonizing propaganda was amongst these three nation. France, English...
Dhanañjaya: Spanish and Portuguese. Spanish also.
Prabhupāda: Ah, that side, is, means Western side.
Guru-kṛpa: Spanish went to South America.
Dhanañjaya: But the British used to say, "The sun never sets in the British empire."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that we knew in our childhood.
Paramahaṁsa: He has less anxieties.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The dog is feeling, "Who can be happier than me?"
Paramahaṁsa: Actually, in the West the dogs have a very good program. If they have a good master, then...
Prabhupāda: But after all, he is dog. (laughs) That he does not know. He may be, according to his estimation, very well situated. But after all, what he is? He is a dog. That he does not know. That he forgets. (break) Very calm and quiet. (break) ...glass. Is it not?
Śrutakīrti: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Now this glass-making is also becoming obsolete. The plastic is replacing.
Paramahaṁsa: Oh, yeah.
Prabhupāda: The glass industry is finished. (end)
Prabhupāda: That is his ignorance. They will say it is primitive. That is the only solution. According to the Vedic system, you cannot use anything which you cannot produce. Suppose this we are using, but according the Vedic system we should not use it because I cannot produce it. Then the whole solution is there. Nobody will manufacture this because there will be no customer. If I refuse this use of this machine, thinking that "I cannot produce it; I should not use it," then where is the customer? The so-called industry will automatically stop, and he has to go to the village outlying.
Paramahaṁsa: Some of the orthodox hippies have this philosophy, and they reject all machines and things that they cannot make themselves.
Prabhupāda: That is natural. That is natural. It is good. But they are not led by good leader. Otherwise next alternative is this, that you have to give up this artificial way of civilization. Now this land is vacant. We can produce so much food grains if it is utilized. Fruits, flower, vegetables, grains—we can produce. This land is very good land for producing potato, watermelon, this. Very good land. But who is doing that? This is the suitable land for producing watermelon. And watermelon is such a nice thing, and potato. You boil potato and take watermelon, you have full nourishment are supplied. Very innocent and simple food.
Prabhupāda: First of all, you have to understand what is the basic principle of civilization, what we want to fulfill, what is the goal. There are different species of life beginning from aquatics, fishes and animals in the water. Then, as the water dries up, then vegetation come. In this way there is evolution from aquatics to vegetable life, then moving, insects, reptiles. Then, gradually, birds. From insect, the flies come out, and then flies gradually comes to bird. Then from birds to beast, four-legged. Then from beast to human being. Then human being, the aborigines, uncivilized. Then you come to civilized life, which is generally known as Aryan life. So the Aryan civilization, Vedic civilization... In this way we get this human form of life, developed consciousness. Now we should try to understand, "What I am? Am I this body or something else?" That is the subject matter of enquiry. So where is that department of knowledge?
Justin Murphy: Where do we fit in?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Justin Murphy: We, the organization that I work for, the government that I work for, is, of course, very, very different, no doubt, in ideas and in philosophies to all of you, and you for example. We work within, however, a situation where we are concerned that within the framework of Australia's society, which involves people, private enterprise, industry, increasing population, all of these placing demands on what naturally is Australia, what you were talking about to begin with. The evolution of Australia, the continent, the land mass, and the birds, the animals. Of course, we have a magnificent and unique and diverse fauna and flora.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Justin Murphy: Could I ask you very simply? You suggest this. If we all do this, will that, for example, remove the problems that we do, that our society, at any rate, at any guess, generates for ourself? We have more and more pollution. Depending on the way the wind blows, for example, we get at times choking pollution from the industrial complexes down to the south of this city. Are these problems going to be...
Prabhupāda: No, no, the next question will be, "If you get sufficient grain for eating, why should you take to industry?"
Justin Murphy: To make money, very simply.
Prabhupāda: Then what for, money? Money means you require the necessities of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Australian devotee 2: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in New Zealand we have a situation where the main industry is killing animals, the biggest industry, yet there is so much rain, so much nice atmosphere over there. Why is this? Why is there such a nice atmosphere but they are killing so many cows? Is that that they are innocent and they do not know and so Kṛṣṇa is not punishing them so much?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they will be punished. (pause) (break) ...so many motor accidents. And there will be war. Then wholesale punishment. Then killing, being killed within the womb of the mother. They are being punished. Nowadays these things have been introduced. Now this child which is being killed by the mother, they are all these sinful men. They cannot come out even, out of the womb of the mother. There they are killed. Nature's law is very strict.
Jayatīrtha: ...given them the facility that they need for survival.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the... Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. They do not know industry. (laughs) So they have to catch their eatables from the nature.
Bahulāśva: The scientists say that everything has developed due to the need for biological survival.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...is of the body, not of the soul. That they do not know. (break)
Rādhā-vallabha: ...because a certain animal needs a certain type of facility like long claws or big teeth or a certain amount of legs, they say that automatically in the course of time these things develop.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we know also.
Kuruśreṣṭha: In this state of Colorado, the main industry is slaughter.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Kuruśreṣṭha: The main industry in this state of Colorado is the slaughter of cows. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...jīva mā mara. The slaughterhouse maintainer is advised that "You don't die, don't live." Mā jīva mā mara. "Your position... Now you are... If you live, just see how horrible business you are doing. And if you die, you will be slaughtered. So better you don't die, don't live." Mā jīva mā mara. (break) ...nice park, nobody is coming. We Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we are taking advantage. (laughter) They have worked so hard, they are sleeping. We are taking advantage. So they are escaping or we are escaping? Just see how foolish they are. They have worked so hard, and they are not taking advantage. We are taking. So our policy is that "You work hard, and we go and take from you." This is not escaping.
Devotee 1: They also pump a lot of refuse from the industry in there. I think it's polluted. (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've been reading in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līlā, that, there's a statement that when Caitanya Mahāprabhu took prasādam at the house of Advaita Ācārya, there's a verse quoted from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that a sannyāsī should not leave anything, no... When he's taking his meals he should not leave anything on the plate. But sometimes we have heard in the past that a sannyāsī should leave something on the plate.
Prabhupāda: No. Sometimes the guru leaves some remnant to be taken by the disciple. That is meant for the disciple. Ordinarily they should not. (break) ...from the other side of the lakes?
Brahmānanda: It's Canada.
Prabhupāda: Canada, oh.
Prabhupāda: And to serve under somebody, that is śūdra. So at the present moment people are being educated to serve under somebody. Technology, one is very expert in some particular line of technology, say, computer machine... You know how to operate. It is a big qualification. But unless he gets a job under some big establishment, he is useless. He cannot live independently. The first-class man will live independently. The second-class man also will live independently. And the third-class men, they will also live independently. And those who cannot live independently, they are fourth-class men. So at the present moment we are simply creating fourth-class men. So fourth-class men, they are prone to be degraded. If you don't raise them to become first-class, they must degrade. So that is the position of the present civilization. They are creating all fourth-class men, and gradually they are degrading. So now you should take up very seriously how you can create some first-class men. First-class, second-class, third-class also. If you simply remain in the fourth grade, technology... Technology means he has to serve under somebody. This industry, that is also the same thing. Hundreds and thousands of men are working. They are fourth-class men. And śūdra. Just like formerly in Indian village... Still there are. They are self-supported. Suppose there is a blacksmith. If you require some black iron instrument, you go there and he will prepare immediately. Say, an oil crusher, extracting oil. So weaver, self-supported. Now these things have been taken in larger scale. That is called industry.
Prabhupāda: Just like later on, the Gandhi's disciples became more than Gandhi, more than Gandhi. That's all. Gandhi planned village organization, and Jawaharlal Nehru planned industrialization. And everything failed. There is no money, and he wanted to establish industry like America.
Dr. Patel: But he did not understand economics, sir. What is money after all? Money is nothing but the labor transformed into materials. We had the huge labor of sixty crores of people. He was capable of transforming that labor into material unfortunately and...
Prabhupāda: Anyway, they changed the Gandhi's program.
Dr. Patel: That is what Gandhi understood, but he did not.
Prabhupāda: How he can understand? He wanted to utilize to become prime minister.
Dr. Patel: Internationally that happened.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Now the village program of Gandhi is lost.
Prabhupāda: Britishers were advertising outside India that "Indians are uncivilized. Therefore we are making them civilized. Therefore we should stay there. Don't object." Because United Nations, they were asking, "Why you are occupying India?" So they used to forward this argument, that "These people are uncivilized. We are making them civilized." (laughter) Now, how there should be Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose? Therefore they used to suppress always. Everything Indian wanted to do, they would suppress: big businesses, this mining... They would suppress. This Morarji, Sumati Morarji, her father-in-law started that... He had to face so many impediments from the Britishers to start the shipping company. Formerly there was no shipping company, Indian. Now, before that, there was shipping, not shipping company, but navigation was there from India to Rome, Greece, Turkey, there was regular business of spices and fine cloth. Later on, this large-scale shipping industry, that was done by the Europeans. So when Indian wanted to start, they would supress. The Tata iron industry, he had to face so many difficulties. Formerly, even if you wanted to bring some iron frame, it would come from Sheffield.
Prabhupāda: They committed so many sinful activities, yes, for maintaining their empire. To sell their Manchester-made cloth they ruined the cloth industry of India and cut this finger.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cut the thumb off.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thumbs of the weavers so that they cannot manufacture anymore.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Very bad.
Prabhupāda: There are so many other things.
Harikeśa: They cut the thumbs of the weavers?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They were making finer cloth by hand than the British were making by machines. So in order to discourage, they would cut off the thumb so they couldn't weave.
Prabhupāda: So many things. And to make a show, the Lord Hasting was impeached in the Parliament. Here the black men, they are Africans.
Prabhupāda: South African.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A lot of investment comes from both America and England, industries.
Prabhupāda: So England has got money to invest still?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They do much investment here in South Africa. (break) Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's a sidewalk here. Would you prefer walking on the sidewalk or the sands?
Prabhupāda: Yes, sidewalk is better.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay. A little bit hard on the...
Harikeśa: Did we pass by a park when we were coming?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We will check out some places today. (break) ...cold spell now.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A cold spell. It's been cold the last few days. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...keepers are mostly Indians?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Radio, and things like this.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you want to make mass communication, you can do anything. (break) Due to industrialization, all intelligent men, they came in the city. In the village it was deserted. So there was no improvement in the village, and people preferred to come to the city, means industry, business. So India's basic principle was village life. Now that is lost. The intelligent class men, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they left villages for earning more money in the cities, and only the śūdras, less intelligent class of men, less than śūdras, they remained. So what they will do? So village became deserted. Still you’ll go and see in Indian villages, especially in Bengal, so many big, big palatial buildings, they are lying vacant.
Prabhupāda: You have no position. You cannot take the Western culture properly, and you have lost your own culture. This is India's bad luck. They never taught Indians how to become actually Westernized. No. They were not giving them sufficient education. They were very much against higher education in the beginning. They wanted some clerks to conduct their activities, mercantile and government, some third-class, fourth-class men. Educated means ABCD, that's all. "They may know ABCD and take fifty, sixty rupees salary, and go home outside the town and come in daily passenger train, and work hard here and simply get your money so that you can maintain yourself." Nothing more. No education, no money, no industry. They were not taught properly. Here I see the factories, and the arrangement is so nice. But Indian factories, go—it is hell. Hell, simply hell. The Britishers exploited the Indians, and the capitalist class of India, they have learned how to exploit only.
Prabhupāda: ...Kali-yuga, always chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma..., and everything will be clear. Last night Brahmānanda said... (break) ...that "We are sticking to you because we know we have got something from you." Otherwise they are all rich man's sons. They are aristocratic family and industry. Why? I am not bribing them. Now this Mr. Ford has come to me. I have not bribed. He is not to be bribed. (break)
Dr. Patel: Up to three o'clock we are taking rest.
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupāda: Up to four.
Dr. Patel: If I come at four-thirty, you are there.
Prabhupāda: No. At that time, I shall not be able to... You can come at five. Because after waking up I prepare. Then at five I begin. Let us meet. And Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). So one has to become dhīra. If one remains adhīra, then he'll never be able to understand the distinction between body and soul.
Prabhupāda: False ahaṅkāra. Because he is not body, it is false ahaṅkāra. So śāstra therefore says, bhagavad-bhakti vihinasya jati japas tapaḥ kriya. A person who has not developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, for him this advancement of nationality, big work, industry, so on, so on, so on, jati japas tapaḥ kriya... Kriya, these act...
Dr. Patel: Activities.
Prabhupāda: What are these? Apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. It has no value. But people are enamored by these things, "I belong to great nation. I am American. We have got so many industries. We have got so many cars." Attachment. So it is very difficult. Sarvo-padhi-vinirmuktam. One, after becoming completely freed from all these false designations, to become a devotee is very, very difficult. There is no education.
Dr. Patel: Sarva-bhavena, from all sides and from all degrees.
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. So we are dealing with very, very difficult task. It is not very easy, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Naturally we have got attraction for God. That is spiritual kingdom. Just like Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana means center is Kṛṣṇa. The elderly person like Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśoda, their friends, their..., they are also attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The gopīs are attracted to Kṛṣṇa, the cowherds boys, they are attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The cows, calves, animals and peacock—everyone is attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The water is attracted to Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. And here in the material world nobody is attracted by Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Molasses. Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill. It is wine, liquor. People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane; therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is the by-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry, and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another. And in Hawaii, Mauritius and in so many other places we see they have produced unnecessary quantity of sugarcane. And then molasses... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. And then wine, and they must be sold.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is looking, that is another thing. But food is there. He has no arrangement for making industry. (to passer-by) Hare Kṛṣṇa! He has no arrangement for making industry.
Harikeśa: Yes, that's why he always has to...
Prabhupāda: Their food is there, he is simply searching out, that's all.
Harikeśa: So if we economically develop, we don't even have to search out...
Prabhupāda: No, no, you are opening factories. They are not opening factories. Nature's food is already there. And "Be satisfied, take this." That's all. That much endeavour is required. That is material world.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. Money-earning servant.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The tax collector.
Acyutānanda: Just like they nationalize industries, they want to nationalize the temple, Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: In Andhra Pradesh all the temples are nationalized?
Indian man (1): Yes, all temples.
Harikeśa: What about ours?
Mahāṁsa: Well, they're not so strong in the other states. Andhra Pradesh and...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they'll copy it. I think they're starting in U.P. now. I read in the paper.
Acyutānanda: Anywhere that there are big temples.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: U.P. has a lot of temples.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what about our temples?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they will gradually try.
Prabhupāda: So you make this American property.
Prabhupāda: No, no, they should be engaged in some...
Devotee: How can you say the situation...?
Prabhupāda: ...cottage industry. Cottage industry.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And we can manufacture so many things.
Hṛdayānanda:: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The engagement must be there.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It can be organized. The children should be raised Kṛṣṇa devotees. The woman can be engaged. Everyone can be engaged. I can give you suggestion if you can execute.
Hṛdayānanda: Sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is wanted. Chinese Communist philosophy, does anybody know? What is that? What philosophy? They have got some philosophy.
Hṛdayānanda: They're emphasizing industrial development. Everyone, the entire country, is mobilized for developing industry, economic benefits, so everyone can enjoy nice material life under...
Prabhupāda: And that is the philosophy of the Western countries.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes.
Siddha-svarūpa: Actually there is.... There is two factions in the Chinese schools now. One is saying to.... They're both materialistically based, but one is trying to stay on a position of self-sufficiency economically and not take from other countries or even trade, and the other school is to industrialize. And they're always fighting with their...
Prabhupāda: Oh, there are two schools?
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It takes.... Just like if the dirty things are very fixed up, it takes little more time. Otherwise it takes little time.
Reporter (2): Swamiji, I believe you'll be having certain industries for export also in Māyāpur. May I know if they will be manned by disciples, and if so, do you think that they would be in a much better position to look after these big gośālās and other things than, say, other, people would be?
Prabhupāda: If you follow Bhagavad-gītā, then everything will be followed very nicely. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). And go-rakṣya, this is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā. So if you follow Bhagavad-gītā, then naturally go-rakṣya will be there. And if you read Bhagavad-gītā for some political reason, then slaughterhouse go on. That's all. Instead of go-rakṣya, go-killing. This is going on. Every politician is reading Bhagavad-gītā, but go-rakṣya... Instead of go-rakṣya, go-hatya. This is going on, no go-rakṣya but go-hatya. This is going on. Who cares for Kṛṣṇa? This is the misfortune of India. Kṛṣṇa spoke in India, in Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa appeared in India, but Indian people are neglecting. Therefore I say it is a misfortune. It is your own thing. You are neglecting it.
Prabhupāda: Well, that is.... It is.... It is known to everyone. Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Anna. Anna means food grains, eatables. You must produce sufficient food grains. Why you are producing tire tube instead of food grains? And just entering your Delhi from Vṛndāvana, a big Goodyear factory, very big factory. You are producing tire tube, then iron, Goodyear and this and that. Where is food grain? And both sides, the field is vacant. Nobody is going to grow food grain. Then why you'll not starve? It is your fault. You are producing tire tube and iron instrument. You are neglecting agriculture. Then why you shall not suffer for want of food grain? And you are pleading, "Indians are starving." Well, why shall not starve if they do not follow Bhagavad-gītā? They are thinking, "By increasing industry in America..." They have got industry, at the same time food grains also. But you are taking to industry without taking care of growing food grains.
Indian (1): Now Mahārājajī has told you the story about the Kuvera of the old days. I will tell you the story of the Kuveras of the today. That is us. In fact, it was in a paper. There was a cartoon. A bank manager, means today's Kuvera, was sitting in an office, and he received a call, such and such big Dalmiya or Birla, "We want two lakhs of rupees just now." He said, "Yes, come along. Here is our Swamiji. He'll pay you two lakhs." Then there was another call. There was some industrialist or a small-scale industrialist man. He said, "I want to start an industry. Could I get a lakh of rupees as a loan from you?" He said, "Yes, yes. Please do come along and we'll make some arrangements." Then he also. And ultimately the third picture in the cartoon, that the manager—that is today's Kuvera—he goes out of the bank. He is standing on the gate, and he says to that caukidāra, (Hindi punchline-laughter). It is today's Kuvera is not in any position to give anything. He also wants your blessings, you see, in fact.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Akṣayānanda: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: No, for village the government is not going to keep such nice road. This government department, forest department.... The government policy is to develop these places for industry in future. This industry is the cause of falldown of the human society—industry. So the reaction is.... The industry, two things required—four things required: land, labor, capital, and organization. So now the industry is going on, and the capitalists and labor, there is fight. The laborers, they are finding out that "We are working. Why the capitalists will take the profit?" This is communism. Is it not?
Akṣayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So the Communists, they are thinking, "By changing the hand, things will improve." But they do not know that very industry is the cause of falldown. They're simply trying to change the hand. The principle should go on, industry, only the proposal is that the capitalists should give up and the workers should take it.
Prabhupāda: India has no, had no such ideas. They are borrowing ideas. India's idea is self-realization. Live very simple life—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas, they are living simple life, becoming very learned scholar, pure character, advanced in spiritual life—one class, ideal. And kṣatriyas, they are supposed to be the king. They distribute the land on nominal taxation, and the vaiśyas utilize the land for cultivation and cow-keeping, and the śūdras, they are engaged as weaver, blacksmith, goldsmith, mean other necessities of life. In this way the whole society is simplified, and the central point is how to become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness by cooperation. This is India's civilization. There is no question of industry. Ugra-karma. It has been condemned in the Bhagavad-gītā as ugra-karma, laboring very hard for livelihood. This industry means engage the poor worker class to work very hard, and there is huge profit, and some directors of the capitalists, they take it. And they have one dozen motorcars, palatial building, no work, simply wine and woman, that's all. This is going on. And the others, they are seeing: "There is no classification, neither real brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya. So he is enjoying like that. He has got so many cars. He has got such a nice apartment.
Akṣayānanda: Industry.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The industry, railway, and this way, that way, European way of life. And the result was they were kicked out. And India is now trying to perfect...
Akṣayānanda: The same thing.
Prabhupāda: Same thing. Yes.
Akṣayānanda: Tragedy.
Prabhupāda: Tragedy, yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Last year, when Governor Reddy was here, you were talking with him how "Let there simply be the government's position to check and see that everyone is following their particular religion."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is government's position.
Prabhupāda: ...give you this foolishness that in other countries they have taken to industry and they are also fully engaged in agriculture. Here the men are taken from the village for industrial work, and the agricultural work suffers.
Dr. Patel: Not so in industry. People are idle. It is just like a man having one son, another man having six sons. If the man with six sons works very hard, he is more, I mean, rich than that fellow. But those six boys don't work? Then he goes to hell.
Prabhupāda: No, he works. He sees that "In the village I shall get one rupee per day, and if I go to the town I shall get twenty rupees."
Dr. Patel: Not that, sir, even that, there is no jobs.
Prabhupāda: But he thinks there is job. He leaves.
Prabhupāda: But he thinks there is job. He leaves.
Dr. Patel: Yes, they come here in search of job.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They suffer. They live in the huts and very nasty place, still expecting.
Dr. Patel: But the highly advanced countries like the States, United States, the agricultural.... I mean, this industry is completely contracted. A percentage the population is getting less and less in agriculture than before. Now hardly ten percent, people are...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa advises...
Dr. Patel: Yes, because agriculture, however...
Prabhupāda: Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14).
Dr. Patel: Even though they have got a lot of machinery and all these things, but still, everything's all.... As, for example, chemical industry. Forty-paisa worth for ten rupees.
Devotees: Jaya! (end)
Devotee (5): They limit the supply so they can sell things for higher prices.
Prabhupāda: No, here the American policy, the Western policy, that if the people get easily food, they'll not come to work in the industry. That is their policy. If they get cheap food, then they won't work. That is human nature.
Devotee (5): That is very interesting.
Prabhupāda: Ha?
Devotee (5): That's very interesting.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they want to keep them starving or in want, so they'll come and produce and make the capitalists rich. This is the system. (break) ...idea, but...
Devotee (5): It's (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: I think in here, in Hawaii, they set fire to the huts. Poor beggars, they are living in cottages, the government set fire so that they may be without home and come to work. Do you know that? Yes? You know that?
Prabhupāda: Thinking. Thinking, he's under the influence of māyā. māyā is dictating, "Why you are trying to go away? Come on, here, Santa Monica." (laughter) And when you become detestful either this Santa Monica or any Monica, "I am not interested," then your spiritual life is...
Jagannātha-suta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I was in New York recently to check the color printing of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, 7.2, we were presented with two awards which your books had won for color and design, two awards from the Printing Industries of Metropolitan New York. They gave us big wooden plaques with a certificate of excellence, yes, for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and for Caitanya-caritāmṛta.
Hṛdayānanda: You should show Prabhupāda, bring him those plaques.
Jagannātha-suta: Yes, we have those plaques hanging up in the Press building now.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Bring it, I shall see.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...diminution on this path of devotional service, nehābhikrama-nāśo'sti (BG 2.40). So does that mean that once one enters the material world, there's only progress in going back to Godhead, although it may be slow, over many lifetimes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. One is going slow, one is finishing very rapidly. If one is serious, he can finish very rapidly. If one is not serious, it will take time.
Hari-śauri: These church fathers that we've just done on the philosophy book, they are simply speculating about what was in the original Bible.
Prabhupāda: No clear conception, scientific idea. Therefore educated persons, they are not interested. "God, give us daily bread." They will say, "Why we shall go to church for begging bread? We can manufacture it, large quantity." (laughs) Why they should go? Formality: "God, give us our daily bread." "Just open a big factory and eat as much bread as we like. Why should we go to God?" (break) ...Jawaharlal Nehru, he took this view, that "For economic development why should you go to the temple, ask this demigod, that demigod, 'Give me this. Give me this'? Develop industry and get money to enjoy." That is his.... (break)...description of God in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam begins: janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ (SB 1.1.1). This is God, the origin of everything. Who is there who can challenge this explanation, "The origin of everything"? Now, what is that origin? Whether it is matter or sentient? No. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś ca abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). He knows everything. Therefore He's a person. Otherwise, how He can be origin of everything? Anvayād itarataś ca. Suppose I.... If I have manufactured this car, then I know every nook and corner of this car, how I have manufactured. One who has manufactured, he knows how it is working, every minute feature. Even an expert driver, he knows how many parts are there, which part is.... Anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ. If he's abhijñaḥ, if he's completely cognizant of every part of the whole creation, then He has created.
Prabhupāda: Why? What is the difficulty?
Hari-śauri: Communists.
Hṛdayānanda: No, between the laborers and the management. They are having great, always strikes, and the British industry is becoming crippled.
Prabhupāda: And there is another problem, Irish problem. The Irish men, they are dropping bombs in London, in daytime. Creating always disturbance.
Gopavṛndapāla: I was in London just recently, and in the airport, where we distribute books, you cannot put your bag of books down because the police will come, hold you, and say, "You have a bomb in your bag." You must always keep it on your shoulder. And there are signs about every fifty feet, saying "Do not leave luggage unattended" because they are thinking anything which is unattended is a possible bomb.
Prabhupāda: London airport is very congested.
Prabhupāda: Let him in.
Rādhāvallabha: It's Govinda dāsī. Tell her to come in.
Hari-śauri: But the union problem they have in England, that's why the whole country now is in disruption because the labor is always on strike. They did a survey, and they found out that all the major union leaders are Communists.
Prabhupāda: And they're making money.
Hari-śauri: When I was there I remember every month there would be a major strike in the car industry, in the shipping industry, all the major industries there was always a major strike every.... And it would completely devastate the economy.
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to.... Sarva-dharmān—everything to give up, except Kṛṣṇa. It is very difficult. Sarva-dharmān. They are proud if they are little rich. And America is very proud. They are trying to accumulate money, and we are trying.... We say, "Give up this nonsense." Is it very easy thing, that "For Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we shall give up everything, our attempt to earn money"? Nobody will accept it. "Our industry, our trade, our opulence—everything we shall leave?" But the meaning is that. Yes. Who will take it? Jñānīs, yogis, the same thing—"Oh, I am so.... I am great yogi. So many people considers me that I am God, and I shall give up this profession?" Is it possible? Who will do it? Caitanya-caritāmṛta there is a verse, eta saba chāḍi' āra varṇāśrama-dharma, akiñcana hañā...(?) That's it. Varṇāśrama, even varṇāśrama-dharma one has to give up. (japa—break) ...department asked me, "Swamiji, how long you want to stay here?" (laughs) I said.... I thought that "I have got this sponsoring one month, maybe another month. So two months." I thought, "Two months is a very long duration, because I'll not be able to do anything. As soon as I will put my program, they will be: 'Go away, please.' " I was under this impression. "Let me try." That is the subject matter of the poetry, that "I have no hope. Who will accept this, especially in this country, so much engrossed in materialistic way of life? And I shall say, 'Give up everything.' Who will take it?"
Rāmeśvara: Movie company. This is that park where we sometimes go. When they have this war it will reduce everything, just finish off all the industries and factories. So everything will be reduced to a primitive stage.
Prabhupāda: No, they will again repair.
Rāmeśvara: Again rebuild everything.
Prabhupāda: In Germany.... Just like Germany was finished. The American planes bombed in such a way that Germany was finished, very heavily bombed. One lady in Hamburg, she was showing me one wall, big wall building dismantled, and it has become black on account of bombing. She was showing me how far injustice they have been done.
Rāmeśvara: So then after the war, nothing will change. System of government, the industries, everything will just be rebuilt.
Prabhupāda: They'll try at least. Just like after the Second World War, Germany or England finished. They could not recoup. They are now poverty-stricken.
Mādhavānanda: Already it's failing. They are making so many cars now, and people aren't purchasing. In the newspaper, you see big pictures of huge miles of lots of unsold cars. The whole motorcar business, industry, is going down.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They have another trick. Now they make them very cheap so the cars will break down every year.
Prabhupāda: But if I don't want it, either cheap or dear, who cares for it? If I don't want that. There was a statement by some Pope that "If the crown of England is offered to me at very cheap price, so why shall I accept it? What shall I do with it?" That is the..., that if I don't want a car.... Suppose if we advance our farming program, who will want the car? Theoretically, accept it, that we shall remain in the farm. Then where is the necessity of car?
Mādhavānanda: Therefore the government will not like.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The government does not like it now because we are not going to eat meat, we are not accepting liquor, no gambling, no prostitution. So the government is already concerned. Theoretically, suppose these things are stopped, then where is the human civilization? Everything is finished. Because they have no other alternative. We have got—Kṛṣṇa consciousness—but they haven't got.
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, according to their calculation, 93,000,000's miles... So the moon is above 1,600,000 miles. And again 1,600,000. So another three million miles above the sun, it becomes sixteen million miles. So if they cannot go to the sun planet, how they can go to the Mars? All bogus.
Ṛṣi Kumāra: I saw one scientist on television, and he was saying on Mars there are mountains that are very, very big, much bigger than the mountains on this planet, and there's beautiful landscape, and they want to start a tourist industry, taking people back and forth.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want to start a tourist industry on Mars, taking people back and forth.
Prabhupāda: But there is no life.
Hari-śauri: They already sold the tickets to the moon. Now they're going to go on to Mars.
Rādhāvallabha: They say there is less advanced life, like plants.
Prabhupāda: Why not more advanced life?
Rādhāvallabha: According to their speculation, they say that the atmosphere is...
Prabhupāda: So that means speculation.
Prabhupāda: So you are drawing the last drop of milk from the cow and sending her to the slaughterhouse. Is that very good civilization?
Dr. Sharma: Swamiji, the beef industry here is based more on... The argument of mother would be a little weak.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Dr. Sharma: The beef industry here is more based on steers, which are not, which are basically bulls given high estrogens and bred in that way.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we are layman, and we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction that cow, milk is very important, we drink the cow's milk, therefore she is mother. So at least she should be saved from being killed. This is common sense. Apart from other big, big reasoning, we take it, Kṛṣṇa says go-rakṣya, so we take it. Besides that, so far vegetables are concerned, Kṛṣṇa says that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: (BG 9.26) "If anyone offers Me even patram," patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam,"I eat them." So we take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. So Kṛṣṇa says "You give Me these vegetables, plants." So we offer Him, and then we take. Besides that, everybody has to eat something. So generally, food grains, vegetables, they are recommended for eating purpose.
Prabhupāda: He was so much insulted. Because every European countries were harassed, they had very bad idea about this Napoleon. Unnecessarily expanding the interest of France. "France and Napoleon, one." Now where is that rascal? France is there. This is going on. British Empire means bring money, hook or crook, in London, and you get the title, "lord," "baron," this... This was their policy. "Sir." All hooligans, thieves, rogues, they were made big, big respectable people. A deposit in the government, this lord family means they have to deposit, say, ten million pounds, like that, and the government takes that money as fixed deposit, and the interest the family will maintain the aristocracy. This is the lord's family. Some way or other you deposit ten million pounds and your family becomes lord's family. So people become mad after money, somehow or other bring money. There was no other culture. In order to introduce their Manchester cloth, how they killed the home industry of India, cloth merchant, this weaver... Just like we are trying. It is very long time, this, the handloom. They cut the finger.
Prabhupāda: So I was at that time family man, so I thought, "Let me adjust my family affairs. Then I shall take it." So by doing the adjustment it took me long years. So I retired at the age of fifty-eight. Then I took up seriously. And when I was seventy years old, then I came here.
Interviewer: Were you a businessman?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I was connected with some chemical industry. I was manager in a big chemical industry. Then I started my own business. In this way I was family man.
Rāmeśvara: But at the same time, Śrīla Prabhupāda was always Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bali-mardana: And He was writing.
Rāmeśvara: And also he was writing transcendental or spiritual books even at that time.
Bali-mardana: 1944.
Rāmeśvara: It's not that he has adopted a new occupation now.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: No, we're very industrious.
Prabhupāda: We don't sit down idly.
Bali-mardana: God helps those who help themselves.
Prabhupāda: We are not idle preachers, we are working. All, very hard, more than the karmīs.
Rāmeśvara: These men, they go out to engage people in taking our books maybe twelve hours a day sometimes, ten hours a day, without any salary.
Prabhupāda: I am now eighty years old, I am working twenty-four hours. I think I work more than my young disciples (laughter).
Prabhupāda: This is philosophy. What is the purport?
Harikeśa: "Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment by various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that in the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma-rasa, and the Pitrloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death."
Prabhupāda: Such a pleasing planet, and these rascals say there is no life. The moon is described everywhere, the most pleasing planet. Actually, when there is moon in the sky, how it is pleasing. So that planet is meant for the high-class pious persons, and they get their life for ten thousands of years. They live very comfortably, drink soma-rasa. These are the descriptions we get from śāstra. And these rascals say it is desert. And we have to believe them. And practically we see how pleasing it is. As soon as the moon planet is there, the whole atmosphere becomes pleasing. And it is desert. And we have to believe these rascal scientists and disregard the description of the śāstra. What do you think? Is that very good intelligence?
Prabhupāda: The material world is full of miseries. It may be of different degrees, but it is full of miseries. You cannot avoid by adjustment. That is not possible. Therefore the materialists, they are trying. Just like in this country, Iran, now the Iranians are trying to become as opulent as the Americans. They are trying to build up similar cities and industries, but do you think they will be happy then? No. Are the Americans happy by having big, big cities? No. That is not possible. Now they are trying to imitate, but that is a false attempt. That is not the life. They can see that Americans have got big, big cities, they have big, big organizations, but are they happy actually or not? From practical example. Then why you are attempting again to imitate them? That intelligence is lacking. How they will be happy, they do not know. They are trying to imitate somebody else. He is already on the standard, so-called, but still they are not happy. The Communists, they're trying for the last fifty years to become happy, but are they happy actually? No. The Russians and the Chinese, they are now differing, "No, this is not the standard. This is standard."
Hari-śauri: But the same example, in the West, we weren't so materially prosperous until we started industrialism. The prosperity was not there until we started our big factories.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Just like in India, there was no industry at all. Until the British period, there was no industry. Not a single. Even in Muhammadan period there was no industry, and they were happy. There was no industry. The Muhammadans also did not know how to start industry. It is Western imported, larger scale industry. Cottage industry was there.
Hari-śauri: Such a high standard of living, that was not available to as many people as there is now.
Prabhupāda: What is that higher standard? When there was no industry, in India, there was full of gold, jewelries. And now there is plastic.
Harikeśa: Yes, but now there's TV.
Prabhupāda: TV, yes.
Prabhupāda: Right. Some tons of things. The ass does not know why he is carrying so much load. Therefore mūḍha. What for he is carrying? What is his profit? He does not know. But he's carrying so much. "I am big industrialist. I have got so much business." What for you are doing industry? That he does not know. Ass. Karmīs are described as asses. They do not know what is the interest.
Indian man (2): How does it matter what people call Kṛṣṇa, whether they call Bhagavān or Viṣṇu or what, Kṛṣṇa? If it is just only one God. We are talking removing Kṛṣṇa from Gītā but putting Bhagavān there instead of Kṛṣṇa. How does it matter?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). "There is no more superior authority than Me."
Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's desire. Nobody is useless. I was also useless. I could not do in India alone anything. This is... Again this example (laughs). Two useless makes useful. Intelligence alone cannot work. Money is required. One man was challenged, "You have no intelligence." So he said, "Yes." He was searching these..."No, why you are searching here?" "No, here is intelligence. If here is money, then my intelligence can work. Otherwise what is the use of intelligence?" But he was searching here," Whether I have got intelligence?" Simply intelligence... In industry also: land labor capital, organization, four things. Simple capital will not do. Simple organization will not do. A man may have very good brain power, organization, but if he has no money-useless. So four things required: land, labor, capital, organization. That minister in Raṅganātha (?), he is inclined to spend huge income of Tirupati, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he is bound up by other colleagues. They are applying the money. So he's willing to call all the ministers if I can convince them. I shall try it. Just... In the Bhagavad-gītā, that is, yajñārthe karma. Everyone is karmī. So the karmīs, the village cultivators or big men industrialists, they are going to Tirupati.
Prabhupāda: He is to be punished. His misusing. Suppose in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement somebody gives us money. He is giving good faith that "It is very good organization." But if I misspend that money, then I am responsible. Then I'll be punished. His business is finished. Kṛṣṇa noted that he has given his hard-earned money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If I take that money... Instead of doing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I use it for my sense gratification, then I'll be... Then I'll be responsible. What is the use of Kṛṣṇa's money being used in industry? Any purpose outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Let this money be utilized for spreading the glories of Kṛṣṇa. But they do not recognize Kṛṣṇa. All the so-called Bhagavad-gītā readers, they want to kill Kṛṣṇa.
Gargamuni: Yes, that's a fact. The Calcutta plan that you had, it is still under consideration. At first the Calcutta corporation refused, but then Abhirāma saw the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Subata Mukerji.
Prabhupāda: So I gave the meaning.
Gargamuni: He said, "No, I want this." But there's still a problem, is that they'll allow a monument, but they don't want the Deity. They'll allow us to build a monument for Bhaktivedanta Swami but no Deity.
Prabhupāda: Well, then take this proposal: "All right, no Deity." We shall hold meetings, lecture. What is that? In the park people come. And we decorate the whole hall with pictures. Gradually we worship one picture.
Prabhupāda: Now the thing is that, say, for Tirupati, it has got biggest income. But I understand that this income is being engaged for industrial purpose. But that, how to utilize in industrial purpose, that you do not know.
Commissioner: But just one thing, let me explain Swamiji. We are not directly giving to industry. What we are doing is we are depositing in a fixed deposit in certain banks, getting the highest interest. That interest we are utilizing for Sanskrit studies, Vedic studies, etc. We are not directly giving. What we are doing is this: we invest in your bank, but bank shall invest in a productive industrial purpose. We put a condition. We are not directly putting in the industry, and that's a wrong propaganda that's being done. What we are doing is the interest that comes, the funds that are there, they are safely there in a bank. The interest that comes we utilize only for religious purposes, like, as I said, the dharma-pracāra, veda-pracāra, all that we are doing.
Prabhupāda: So, I have taken this veda-pracāra. Why not come and join with us?
Commissioner: Yes, definitely.
Prabhupāda: All over the world they're accepting. Now these foreigners, they're accepting. I have done it single-handed. So if the government comes forward and join with me, we can do at least ten times work.
Prabhupāda: Nowadays people are taking to the (indistinct) of industry. But we don't find in Bhagavad-gītā, there is any suggestion for industry. Kṛṣṇa said... It started?
Hari-śauri: It's recording.
Prabhupāda: No no, you stop this.
Hari-śauri: You want to play this tape back?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) That's nice.
Paṇḍita: So until the father makes one (indistinct) of Śrī Vaiṣṇava... And the śaraṇāgati makes them assured of mukti. So kṛta-kṛtya. Now, the later part of life, (Sanskrit). (Hindi)... of Rāmānuja school. This Rāmānuja school has been fortified by his works, so many works on Vedānta, like (Sanskrit names of books) These are all the major Vedānta works he has composed. All these works I have sat before a guru and studied for eight years at Śrī Raṅgam.
Minister: Mostly it is utilized for that. Almost completely. Only one or two is mere what is called charity. The industry, there's been a wrong impression that we are working directly with industry.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is... It should be utilized simply for the purpose of awakening the devotional, what is called-inspiration. For no other purpose. Just like in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti, nitya-siddha. This is our natural... Just like these Europeans and Americans, they have become Kṛṣṇa bhaktas. So what business they had to do with Kṛṣṇa? They're coming from Christian family, Jewish families, or some of them Mohammedan family. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? They haven't got to do anything with Kṛṣṇa. So how they have become a Kṛṣṇa bhakta? Even the... Just like he is coming from Parsee family, he is coming from Jewish family, he is coming from Christian family, he is coming from Europe, he is coming from America. So what they have got to do with Kṛṣṇa? We Indians or Hindus, we may have some concern with Kṛṣṇa, but what they have got? They haven't got anything to do with Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: This risk should not be taken at any gain. Never mind Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, this-vilāsa—no risk. You must always know. No risk. That is the first point. Then we consult Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. Nobody can give reference to Hari-bhakti-vilāsa at risk. No. Not at all. Do? Anything more?
Dhanañjaya: Can I ask one question? You were mentioning that you wanted to start local industries, casting Deities.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we can purchase... We can...
Dhanañjaya: Purchase raw materials?
Prabhupāda: So, everything is all right now?
Dhanañjaya: So I was wondering...
Prabhupāda: Can you come, there... (break) There are, what is called, Deity makers here?
Dhanañjaya: Well, most of the Deities, they are cast in Aligarh.
Prabhupāda: Aligarh? Oh.
Haṁsadūta: No encouragement.
Prabhupāda: No encouragement. They are simply staying somehow or other in their original culture, but there is no encouragement by the leaders. But the leaders have lost. This is the position. Just like Jawaharlal Nehru, he was a complete rascal about Indian culture. He did not think that Indian culture has any value. Therefore he wrote the book, "Discovery of India." You know that? He has... It is little popular. "Discovery of India." So long India was not discovered by opiate or something like, as the Russians say. Now it is now discovered. And that its leaders have to become Anglicized or Europeanized. Industry, the Western way of living, eating, and everything. Pollution. Everything.
Haṁsadūta: And on the basis of this transporting of food, other industries grow. Like for instance packing. Sometimes the package costs more than the item which is being packaged.
Prabhupāda: Especially in your country. Packing is more important than the... They sent me some presentation in a huge package.
Haṁsadūta: Consequently those persons who are farmers, they become discouraged.
Prabhupāda: Now it has become a problem how to throw these packings.
Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is another problem.
Hari-śauri: Yes. Plastic they can't dispose of, glass.
Prabhupāda: Simply creating problems. Lavana haila ithe gatila jagya.(?) This modern civilization, they could not make any profit. They have created some problems, that's all. Very dangerous civilization.
Prabhupāda: It is always cloudy; people are going to see the West Minister Abbey and Parliament.
Haṁsadūta: The whole tourist industry runs on propaganda.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: When you get there, there is nothing to see.
Prabhupāda: In Parliament they have got old records bound up, almirah. You have seen? What it will do now? Speech of such and such person, speech of... (long pause) What they... Why this water is?
Hari-śauri: Well they are watering the garden.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Hari-śauri: Were you thinking of any particular time, when you wanted to do this village program?
Prabhupāda: Hm. I have no where experience.
Prabhupāda: But industry it belongs to the other persons, not to the Maharastrians.
Mr. Malhotra: Hm?
Prabhupāda: All these Bombay industries, they belong to the outsiders.
Mr. Malhotra: Outsiders. Now in Punjab for instance, they have created sufficient wheat to cater the entire country. That is 4/5 of the total need of the country of wheat is supplied by Punjab.
Prabhupāda: But it is always.
Mr. Malhotra: Punjab and Haryana, now they are two, but both together.
Prabhupāda: Punjab is the best province in India.
Prabhupāda: So anyone's question about this, this misdirected civilization? In India there was no such misguided civilization. Now they have learned how to misguide people, and they have taken this ideal, that "Unless we become like the Europeans and Americans our progress is checked." This is going on. Actually there is no progress. We are condemned. Why they should waste so much energy not for progress. Before British period, India, there were cities, but not like this because their energy was utilized. Cities were constructed especially in pilgrimages, like Mathurā. Mathurā is very old city, but that is a pilgrimage. Dvārakā, that is also very old city. First of all there was no need of big, big cities because there was no industry. They did not know what is industry. And there were ample food-food grains, milk, vegetables. Those who were eating meat, they were eating small, nonimportant animals like goats, hogs, and they never touched cows. Cows are very important animals. Even the stool, urine, is important. In the agricultural field the cows, passing stool, they will also benefit. Natural fertilizing.
Dr. Patel: English people, they, I mean, ruined their whole industry of... Bengal textile industry was ruined by Britishers. They cut away the thumbs. That is... I'm sorry, sir...
Prabhupāda: Therefore why mahātmā? The same business you are doing, why you say mahātmā? If you are doing the same business...
Dr. Patel: He never called himself mahātmā. People called him mahātmā.
Prabhupāda: He liked to enjoy it. He liked to enjoy it. That's all. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). Mahātmā has no business to this... (break) ...fact, the present position of India, it is not very good. But we can do that. We have got the means. If we make propaganda village to village. Still, the villagers, they are unpolluted, they can be recovered. Still, when we hold meeting of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, thousands of men come. And that, our Hyderabad land is very suitable for this purpose.
Guest (1): If it is told by (indistinct) who accept it.
Prabhupāda: No, why these boys are attracted ? They have not come here to see your industry for materialism. They have come here for spiritual. They have not come to see your cycle and sewing machine. Actually, they have come, Vṛndāvana, Māyāpur. And they are not poverty stricken. We go to Europe being poverty stricken. That Lady Wellington, he (she) challenged one of my Godbrothers, Bhakti Tīrtha Mahārāja, that "You Indian people..." She was very proud, Lady Wellington. Wellington was Iceland. She said that "You Indian people..." Of course, it was friendly talk. "You come to our country, we give you some stamp, degree, and you earn your livelihood in India. What you have come here to teach?" This was the challenge. Actually, that was happening. We were sending our men to England to become bar-at-law, to become MS, CP, to become this and that, and they became here big men. So why you people come here to teach us? This was the challenge. In those days a little favor of Englishman was considered a great boon.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Factories and industry and export and import and then slaughterhouse, drinking, prostitute—these are all British contribution. In India, before that, they did not know, although there was Muhammadan kingdom. Muhammadans were happy as ruler. They did not... They thought that "Let them execute their own religion, and let us our religion." That was the relation. And Hindus, they took it that "Somebody must be government..." (break) ...policy that "If the Indians remain as Indian, it will be impossible to govern. Give them education and condemn everything Indian." And they engaged their own men, engaged our men, and gradually they developed the industry. Naturally people became very much astonished: "Oh, they are making such a nice bridge. We have now laid down the railway. We have got facilities, so on, so on..." They gave them, for developing these enterprises, a little knowledge in English, ABCD, they would get good job. In this way they established. Money and export, import... This business enterprise and industry, these..., all these things, were introduced. There was not a single factory before British days. Industry idea is completely Western. And tea garden.
Jagadīśa: With just a stick.
Prabhupāda: Yes, with a stick. (chuckles) They are so submissive. The cow is going this side, "Raa-raa!"—immediately. (Jagadīśa laughs) When in Bible they say, "The animal is given to the care of man," like that... There is. This is care of, not that "Because we care of, we shall kill them." What is this interpretation? How demonic this Western civilization. "Because Jesus Christ, the God, has given the animals to our care, therefore we shall kill and eat." Anyway, try to introduce a renovation of civilization. Therefore they are trying to oppose us. Now they are conscious about the movement, that "If it is allowed to increase, then our program will be finished. And young men are taking. They are not rejecting." That is their concern. They are concerned about their business and industry. If these young men are held up in plain living, then where their industry...? Industry means to exploit the work of others and give them one dollar and make profit ten dollars. This is industry, at the cost of others some capitalist gaining huge profit. This is industry. "And let them live in a hellish condition, go to hell. Never mind. You work in the factory, and we make profit." The Communist is trying to take over the industry and get the whole profit. (laughs) That's all.
Prabhupāda: Huh? You have done already upasannān. So is Kṛṣṇa unable to maintain you? Why should you go to this blind man? So we go not for our maintenance. We want to engage his hard-earned money to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our mission. Not for this belly. For belly we refuse to go anywhere. You'll find in Kumbhamela, still there are sādhus, they are not going anywhere. And they are starving? We go-gṛhināṁ dina-cetasām—"This rascal is absorbed in the thought of comfortable life, and he has taken only these wife and children, everything. Give him some other..." This is our mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa.' Let him go there and sit down and talk with him and give some instruction of Kṛṣṇa. This is our... We are not going for this belly. (Hindi) They are criticizing that "This man is empty stomach, and he has come to me." What does he care for empty stomach? No. Even they insult that, "They are empty stomach," it doesn't matter. It is my duty to give him some enlightenment about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Never mind. Let him insult. Nityānanda Prabhu, He was injured. Still, He said, "All right. You have injured. I don't mind. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa... "I don't mind you have injured, but I request you that you chant." This should be missionary... But they are thinking, "These people, empty stomach, they have come to us. We are... We don't require any God. We have got industry." This is going on. Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. Find out this verse, Bhagavad-gītā.
Rāmeśvara: Their big propaganda is that "India is so poor and they are so stupid, they are giving all their money to the temple, so they are remaining poor, so what is the use of this religion?" That was the propaganda, that "Religion is the opiate of the people."
Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not... Therefore they are... The Indian rascals, they using this income of Bālaji for industry. They are bringing, that "The poor people, on account of their innocence, they are blindly, so..." Communist movement is against us because we are constructing costly temples, crores and rupees. This could have been utilized in industry. That is their protest. Temple construction was practically stopped in India. And I have again revived. Nobody was interested to construct temple anywhere within the recent at least hundred years or fifty years.
Gurudāsa: You told me they wanted to be paid in gold by the Home Bill just to deplete the economy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Home Bill. Because I was student of economics. So Home Bill. Home Bill means all the Englishmen were engaged in India, either government, railway, industry, factory, and so on, so on, so on. Whatever... They have got some charges. So all the bills were sent to London, and they made a Home Bill. Their home is in England, so they won't take payment here. They'll take payment at home. And the government there, they'll present the whole bill to India and debit India's account in gold. That means, other words, all the payments which were to be made to the Englishmen in India, they were paid at home in gold.
Prabhupāda: Oh. They're educated.
Gargamuni: Yes. And most of the business and industry is in the hands of the Mussulmans. But they... We walked around like this, and there was no trouble—at that time.
Prabhupāda: They have got a Bengali language.
Gargamuni: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gargamuni: Oh, yes. They speak Bengali.
Prabhupāda: No, they kept Bengali language-state language.
Gargamuni: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: And you also mentioned not so much these ugra-karmic jobs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Rāmeśvara: Industry. Now hundreds of thousands of people have their jobs in this way. So...
Prabhupāda: Let them go to the farm. We are therefore organizing farm. As soon as they are jobless, "Come on. We shall feed you. We shall give you food." There is no scarcity of food.
Hari-śauri: Does that mean we have to wait for the situation to arise where they are jobless?
Prabhupāda: No. Wait... We are waiting, but if anyone comes, we have already big, big farms. "Come, hundreds. We shall provide you."
Hari-śauri: But this is talking in terms of millions of people who are engaged in America in the cities.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Let millions... The land is also millions' acres. We shall utilize gradually.
Prabhupāda: Like monkeys, yes. Markaṭa-vairāgya. (break) And they are living very rich. And if you make big, big cities without industry, cities cannot be maintained. You'll require so many instruments, machine. That means you require (indistinct). If you require food, there is no need of industry.
Satsvarūpa: I remember in school seeing films of India, and they would say, "This is very backward. They're living as they used to live hundreds of years ago by using the ox and the plow."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have, hundred years after, we have learned how to kill ox and bulls. That is your advancement. And kill your own children also. Rascal civilization. They say "primitive." I was talking with a priest in Australia. So he said, "This civilization you are suggesting, this is primitive." Do they call it primitive?
Satsvarūpa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Motorcar benefit means you have to start big, big industries and neglect farming.
Gurukṛpa: In America they can say, "We have enough food. We have no shortage."
Prabhupāda: We are not thinking "We have." We are thinking how the human society is having.
Satsvarūpa: Well, they say "Let everyone help himself. We're taking care of ourselves."
Prabhupāda: But why not you? What is your humanity?
Gurukṛpa: So they say, "We work hard, and then they, they sit back."
Prabhupāda: So why do you make...? Who...? Who do you mean by "we"? It is, everything, belonging to Kṛṣṇa. You have plundered Kṛṣṇa's property. You won't allow others to come in. The Chinese, the Indians, they are congested. Why? What do you mean by "we"? It is your father's property? You have stolen Kṛṣṇa's property.
Prabhupāda: They are not independent. Fully dependent on the employer. So they give poor salary. Dai Nippon has their own hospital, own education, and everything, big industry. And little salary, that's all. So whatever house they allot, they have to accept. And I have seen the director living in a cottage like this almost. So Japanese actually they are poor. Only the capitalists, they have got... Therefore their yen value... You go to purchase—"Two thousand yen." You'll be surprised, "So much paying!" But it has no value. "One million yen." (laughs) In the beginning I... "What is this nonsense? So much?"
Hari-śauri: Our devotees, Gurukṛpā's party, they're talking about they collect a hundred thousand, eighty thousand, but it means, that means...
Prabhupāda: It means few dollars.
Prabhupāda: Hm. He came to see me.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ādi-keśava's mother is very big in the field of education. Public speaker and intelligent. His father owns a number of industries.
Prabhupāda: You can bring case against them. Just like fight in same position, that brainwashing. Not brainwashing. Whatever they have said.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bring a case against them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Back to back.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes. We're planning to do that. After this case is finally won, then we'll turn around and sue them for damages.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Help is for everyone, but if they remain stubborn to their own way of life, then it is not possible. They have to wash the brain. Otherwise it is possible.
Hari-śauri: You explain in the Bhāgavatam that everything actually is just an extension of the sex desire.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Hari-śauri: Their whole big cities and so much industry...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: ...and work is just simply...
Prabhupāda: For the central point-vagina. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). The other day... Maithunyam agāram ajñaḥ vindati tāpān.
Hari-śauri: Ṛṣabhadeva's instructions. (end)
Prabhupāda: Third World? We have no place there? We want Fourth World? Or what is that? (laughter)
Tripurāri: I think there is more animal slaughter in Argentina than anywhere in the world.
Prabhupāda: Most sinful.
Ādi-keśava: That is the national industry there, cattle slaughter.
Prabhupāda: It has become national industry in Africa also.
Hari-śauri: And Australia...
Prabhupāda: Australia.
Hari-śauri: ...New Zealand.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the world is suffering, so much sinful activities. The greatest sinful activity is cow slaughter, and they are committing. They do not know what will be the result. Such brain, stool, stool-bound brain. Thorough overhaul is required. That we are doing. Otherwise the stool cannot be cleansed. (Bengali) (end)
Brahmānanda: They have much farming there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is wanted. Farming is wanted. What is this nonsense industry? When I passed through Berkeley and New York, really hellish, these buildings. Some of them are finished, all broken. Similarly London also. This civilization has no value. It is a demonic civilization. Jagataḥ ahitāya. Find out this, Sixteenth. Ugra-karma, jagataḥ ahitāya.
Hṛdayānanda:
- etāṁ dṛṣṭim avaṣṭabhya
- naṣṭātmāno 'lpa-buddhayaḥ
- prabhavanty ugra-karmāṇaḥ
- kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ
- (BG 16.9)
"Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world."
Prabhupāda: That's it. This is going on. And what is their prakāra? Kāma? But simply sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: In the history of India there is no woman leader. Throughout Mahābhārata you'll find... Mahābhārata is the greater history, history of greater India. Mahā means greater, and bhārata. So "Greater Bhārata." That means this whole planet. So you won't find woman leader
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are... Some letters have come from some prominent personalities. Here is one from Mr. S. P. Mondalia. Surya Prakash Mondalia. "Your Holiness..." It's from Industry House, Real(?) House. "Your Holiness, I was indeed happy to know from yesterday's newspapers that the suit filed against ISKCON has been decided in favor of ISKCON by the New York High-Court. Admittedly this is a clear vindication of the dharmic way of life chosen by ISKCON. I have great pleasure in extending my heartiest congratulations, and I hope that the ISKCON will progress from strength to strength in the service of the Lord. With respectful regards. Yours sincerely, Surya Prakash Mondalia."
Girirāja: And probably the industry minister will also come.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today, you were saying, it is Monday.
Girirāja: I was saying that since today is Monday, yesterday was Sunday, so must people probably thought that "I'll go Sunday or else I'll go on Rāma-navamī. " So today I think fewer people will come.
Prabhupāda: Tomorrow speak.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what you were thinking originally, that you would be going only on certain days to the pandal, important days. Do you want to ask Prabhupāda about the press conference?
Girirāja: So we wanted to invite the newspaper men to Juhu, and usually they are more inclined to come for these meetings if we give them a nice meal. So that would be..., what I was thinking is that if you are taking your meal at 12 o'clock, then if you could meet them for a short time after that, say, at about 12:30, and then, after that, then they can take their prasādam. Otherwise we could have it in the afternoon, but I don't think we'll get as good response, because they are after that; they like that meal to be served.
Prabhupāda: Well, whatever time, you decide. But after taking my meals, I require a little rest.
Prabhupāda: Another rascal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "He said that industry must rest on a secure foundation and a healthy land-man relationship. It cannot rest where man owns thousands of acres of land and villages, but stays in Calcutta or Patna and is only interested in collecting money."
Prabhupāda: That I say always. Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: We have already seen the defect.
Prabhupāda: No Indira Gandhi's news?
Bhakti-caru: (continues to read news articles) No... Indira Gandhi... "Infighting with Civic Congress Party leads to more powers for laborers." "Civil judge regrets motives against magistrates." (reads more headings and newspaper articles) " 'The revolutionary work of eliminating poverty and unemployment in the rural areas can be accomplished by a considerable extent through the khādi and village industries. To achieve these objectives modern technology must be used to rise to the extent possible.' He hopes the new commission would take steps in this direction." (continues reading news articles; Prabhupāda is silent)
Prabhupāda: Hm. Hm. That's all. (break)
Girirāja: ...lal to meet you. So far, he hasn't shown himself to be too...
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Girirāja: So far, he seems to be more preoccupied with his own ideas, so we don't know whether there will be any benefit to this meeting.
Prabhupāda: But if he wants to meet, I have no objection. (break) ...and the host was very rich man in anywhere. And he has no son. He expressed his desire to father to take me. This is the position.
Prabhupāda: ...material body. So as soon as there is material attraction, the village organization will not stand because the other material attraction is industry. So because he's materially attracted, he'll say that "If I do industry, I get hundred rupees. Why shall I plow for five rupees?" That simply they do not know. Gandhi's plan failed there. If materially they are after material enjoyment, so if he gets hundred rupees, he thinks that "I will enjoy more. Why shall I be sticking to the service?" Then the village program will fail. They will go for the hundred rupees. That civilization they do not know. After all, they are all rascals. They won't take lesson from us or from the Vedic culture. Therefore it is failure.
Mr. Myer: Our new prime minister is now very much appreciating the movement, especially about Prabhupāda. He may like to visit. He says he does not want these foreign industries. He wants people to have religious... And he is very big sannyāsī himself. That is why he is...
Prabhupāda: Who?
Mr. Myer: Morarji Desai. He is very much in favor of the movement that we are carrying on.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mr. Myer: Because he himself is following the four principles very nicely for fifty years.
Prabhupāda: So why does he not do? Let him do it.
Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). That is required. You... How do you know Morarji is interested in...?
Mr. Myer: Well, all the government bosses now, they have defined that "We don't want any big industry." They want all the people in villages. They don't want to use fertilizer.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is our...
Mr. Myer: They want to use compost.
Prabhupāda: This is our...
Mr. Myer: That is what has been in Ahmedabad. I spent one night with Mahāṁśa Swami, and they are also digging up the pits. They are making their own fertilizer. Everything is... That's... You see, that's a policy of Ram Mandir's(?) because they want to create more jobs. The village must become very...
Prabhupāda: Let government help us. If they do not help us even with some men to stay here... Indians are not joining. But they are willingly joining, sacrificing everything.
Prabhupāda: It will stay.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "Aid the Fresh Air Fund." This is a fund. They collect millions of dollars for keeping the air fresh. But they never think why the air has become unfresh due to all these foolish industries pumping so many obnoxious things into the air. That they won't stop. But they'll devise new machines to clean the air.
Prabhupāda: Hm. So here is one of the machine. That we are creating, the farms. Air fresh.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is fresh air.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes when you go to the farm... I would go there every week. I would immediately become... The air is so clean that it makes you exhausted to breathe it almost. You're not even used to it. You get so much...
Prabhupāda: Immediately you become refresh, immediately, as soon as you see the fresh milk, fresh vegetables.
Prabhupāda: That's what I... Similarly, weaver, that cloth weaving, "kat, kat." The wife is spinning, her husband is weaving, the children is weaving, and combinedly at the end of the day there is a cloth. And people were satisfied with simple necessities. They would not charge very much for the labor. And one nice cloth requires half a pound cotton. Half a pound cotton means maybe one rupee. Another one rupee for the labor. So now they are paying twenty to thirty rupees. Unnecessarily he has to earn this money and pay to the millionaires, and he will keep three dozen motorcars, so another man will be engaged in motorcar industry. In this way time is being wasted without any search after spiritual realization. Time is wasted in such so-called technology advancement. And the real purpose of life, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā, that is missing. And when you present that "This is the most important business of life," they say, "It is brainwashing." And they fight to check us, Communists and others, that "It is useless, God consciousness." (break) (long pause) So... Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Because they are missing the aim of life, they are committing suicide.
Prabhupāda: Why not make mango industry?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mango industry.
Prabhupāda: Mango is such a fruit, when it is not ripe, the green from that, up to the full ripe you can have.
Indian man (1): (Hindi conversation about mangoes) (break)
Prabhupāda: ...known as a religious man so that they can do business very exploitively. They were called by Guru Mahārāja, dharma-dhvaji.(?) Exploit (Bengali). Guru Mahārāja used to say dharma-dhvaji. "Daṇḍavat class." Yes. He knows simply to offer daṇḍavats. (laughs) Even so nice word: "Oh, he's a daṇḍavat class." My Guru Mahārāja was very humorous. He was a Calcutta bhap.(?) Therefore he liked me. All others, they came from East Bengal. I was the only disciple, Calcutta.
Prabhupāda: So do nicely, quickly, and spend money. That's all. (laughter) I want to see things are done very nice. Never mind money is spent.
Dhanañjaya: I also looked into this weaving of silk Benares saris.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Dhanañjaya: You mentioned that we should encourage cottage industries here and...
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Cottage industries.
Prabhupāda: Ha.
Dhanañjaya: And so these handlooms are available, but along with the looms you must have expert weavers, handloomers.
Prabhupāda: So why you are bothering if you have no expert? You have to find out expert weaver. Why? We are not for industry. Why should we divert our attention unnecessarily?
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a challenge to the, all these Nobel Prize-winner scientists. So our position is better. Hm?
Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. The new government there, they pride themselves in being a dharmiṣṭha society, based on the teachings of Buddha. So I submitted an open letter to the same press, that "How is it dharmiṣṭha if the government is in fact supporting the organized slaughterhouses, that the government maintains the liquor industry, the tobacco industry, the tea industry, and they encourage cinema, nightclub, hotel, tourism, which encourages prostitution?" I said, "Where is the dharma? Dharma means four things: no animal slaughter, no intoxication, like that." The editor promised that he would publish it today. So if they publish it, it will also be a very controversial...
Prabhupāda: So, and they are giving us some status to stay there?
Haṁsadūta: No, we have no official status. The way to function there is that you can stay for six months if you bring three dollars a day for them, and then go out, and you can come back the next day. They want to get rid of all religious groups. They want only their Buddhist group. They want to make the Buddhist religion as the state religion.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Girirāja: The air is very, very pure. They hardly have any industry there, and very few motorcars. It's very unspoiled. So the air is clean and the people are also nice. Until a few years ago, there was no system of compulsory education, so the new ideas, Western ideas, have not come very much there.
Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Bengali)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like a little soft chanting?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you haven't passed urine in some time. Would you like to try?
Prabhupāda: There is no...
Bhavānanda: No need. (end)
| Page Title: | Industry (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 07 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=134, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 134 |