Independence (Conversations 1976 - 1977)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whole Europe became threatened, Napoleon. And there must be some reaction. And when he was under custody he was treated like an.... So where is independence? He had to drink horse urine as reaction of his atrocities. Hitler committed suicide and finished himself. Mussolini was forced to be killed. Gandhi was killed. And they are fighting for independence. You know this Sydney? Sydney? You know why the city is known as Sydney?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot, he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said, "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hm? Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible?

Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there: life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that "We have no independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto..." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independent, so-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' " What is future? Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have...? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence.

Prabhupāda: I can do everything independently.' " Kartāham iti manyate. Manyate means "falsely think." Actually, he is nothing but a small particle. This egotism is the root cause of suffering. Discuss all these things amongst yourselves and preach and inform these rascals, so-called civilized scientists and philosopher. That is preaching. We have to present the truth in such a way that they will be convinced, "Yes." Within fifteen minutes the plane in Arabia, fifty-three men fell. Within fifteen.... It takes fifteen minutes to die. That's all. Where is your independence? You have invented so many nice machine, but when there is order from superior, "You nonsense, your machine.... You die immediately," what you can do? So why don't you accept there is superior? Hm? Why do they not accept? What is the reasoning? You cannot say?

Harikeśa: Vimūḍhātmā.

Morning Walks -- January 22-23, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. That accept. If he accepts that he's vimūḍha, then it is an advance. Just like a dog is barking, "Yow, yow, yow, yow!" You just run towards him with a stick, he'll immediately go away and stop. Because he is dog, he is thinking, "I am independent. I can bark like this." And as soon as.... Simply one stick-finish his independence. You'll find psychologically, however a big dog he may be, if you just run towards him with a stick, he'll go.... (laughs) He knows that "When this man will strike me with the stick, I cannot do anything." He knows it very well. Sometimes falsely if you touch the ground, he will go away. Everyone is thinking independently. He is forming a party, "revolution," "ism," and so many things. All of them are foolish rascals. They do not see the history. Stronger men than ourselves, Napoleon, Hitler, this man, that man, Gandhi—everyone is finished. So where is.... What is the value of my planning again? (break) There are many gods?

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Why they look inquisitive? No commentary. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Cent percent cheater beginning from the top. They have lost their own culture, Vedic civilization, and they are not competent to earn properly. They must be cheater. Beg, borrow, steal. They have lost their own culture; therefore they have no one honest. Formerly Indians were so honest that after one man's death, his son comes... Even we have seen it in childhood. "Sir, my father took from you the five thousand rupees. So now he is dead, so I have come to pay you." So he says, "I never seen my account that your father has taken five thousand rupees from me. I cannot take it." This is India. One man is offering him five thousand, that "We are debtor to you. Please take it." And he says, "No, I don't find in my account that your father took five thousand. I cannot take it." And now they are cheating. This is India's position. Even in our childhood I have see that Mr. C. R. Das, his father died insolvent some lakhs of rupees. So when he became a big barrister he called every one of them that "My father died insolvent. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India. And now they have become cheaters. This is svarāj, independence. Even in British times there was C. R. Das who liquidated the debts of his insolvent father. "My father died insolvent. He could not pay, so he declared insolvency in the court. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India.

Morning Walk -- February 5, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: He has created, but He has given you independence.

Jagadīśa: God wants us to enjoy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kāśirāma: Why has He given us that independence if in that independence we...?

Prabhupāda: Then you are not living being. You are dull stone. God does not want that you remain a stone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Free will" means living being.

Hari-śauri: But if he gave us the material world to enjoy, then why do we have to suffer here?

Morning Walk -- February 19, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: No, He's not permit... He forbids, but you...

Acyutānanda: You insist.

Prabhupāda: ...that you have to understand, that you have got little independence. That... Actually they do not understand that.

Sudāmā: No. They're not satisfied.

Acyutānanda: They don't...

Sudāmā: Then they say, "Why He give us independence, then?"

Prabhupāda: Then... That is the distinction between you and the stone. Otherwise you would have remained as stone. Because you are moving, therefore He has given you the independence.

Morning Walk -- February 19, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru-kṛpā: How is it that...

Prabhupāda: That is independence. That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate.

Sudāmā: It is very hard thing to understand.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult.

Acyutānanda: It is not difficult. They don't want to understand.

Prabhupāda: Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel.

Morning Walk -- February 19, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: But if he likes, he can return.

Acyutānanda: He can return.

Prabhupāda: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown.

Acyutānanda: In Kṛṣṇa book it says that there were some color fighting in Dvārakā. They were throwing color. And some men became lusty seeing the women. So is... Will that be the first part of their falldown, to be in Vaikuṇṭha and think of personal lust with Kṛṣṇa's associates?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Whatever He likes, He'll do. That is God. God is not meant for satisfying you.

Morning Walk -- March 14, 1976, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: "My only responsibility is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa"—then this very conception will save you.

Rāmeśvara: I spoke with one man who argued that "Kṛṣṇa is very cruel because He knows everything past, present and future, so He knew that we would all fall down from the spiritual sky, but still, He gave us the independence to fall down."

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Rāmeśvara: "Even though He knew we would fall, because He knows everything..."

Acyutānanda: That's a common question.

Prabhupāda: That is another foolish question. Unless you have got independence, what is your life? Then you are dead stone. You want to become a dead stone? That is not Kṛṣṇa's concern. Kṛṣṇa does not give such perfection, that you become a dead stone.

Morning Walk -- March 16, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Madhudviṣa: Any system people can deviate from...

Prabhupāda: No, no, deviate, that you have got independence to deviate from anything.

Madhudviṣa: So that is the imperfection.

Prabhupāda: That is your imperfection.

Madhudviṣa: So they will say that is the imperfection in Communism, also, that the system is perfect but we have imperfect people.

Prabhupāda: But if there is an ism where there is no such defects, why should you not accept it?

Prabhupāda: This is.... Already warning is there that "You smoke; you suffer." And if you still do that, suffer. What can be done? Common thing.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The freedom is always there, minute independence.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Minute.

Guru dāsa: Freedom with responsibility.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru dāsa: Just like they say that you have the freedom to yell "There's a fire" in a theater, but you don't do it.

Prabhupāda: So many examples are there. Freedom is there, but you are not absolutely free to do whatever you like.

Prabhupāda: Father takes care, "My dear child, don't do this. Don't touch fire." But still, he touches; he must suffer. The fire will not excuse because he is child. That is not possible. Nature's law will act.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This idea of freedom and independence, is it possible for anyone theoretically to surrender to Kṛṣṇa at any time?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So let's say someone is in a very degraded condition of life, modes of ignorance, passion. Their mind is always disturbed. Is surrender to Kṛṣṇa.... Is it possible that it can be independent even of the mind?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In other words, let's say someone's mind is...

Prabhupāda: Just like a good child. He has decided, "I shall do only what my father says." Then he is safe. And as soon as he misuses his indep..., little independence, he is complicated. So decide like that, that "I shall not do anything which is not ordered by Kṛṣṇa." Then it is all right. Otherwise you'll suffer. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Make it zero. Then you are safe. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply do, act, what Kṛṣṇa says; then you are safe. Why don't you do that? That is also independence. You are misusing independence. You are misusing. Then you must suffer. The government says, "Do according to the law." Then you are safe. Government will give all protection. And if you violate law, you must suffer.

Devotee: So take it that there is a man, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who is not very learned in śāstra, but he only simply does what his guru tells him.

Prabhupāda: What is learned? What is learned? A child, does he require learning. When the father says, "You do it," does it require any university education?

Morning Walk -- March 26, 1976, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: That is said, man-manā. Think of Kṛṣṇa; He'll guide you. Very easy thing. Man-manā. Always think of Kṛṣṇa, then there is no question of falling down. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). These four things, if strictly done, he is safe. He is safe. Always think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, offer Him obeisances and.... Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī, and worship Him. This is Deity worship. That will engage in always in thinking, in offering obeisances. And if we strictly follow only these, these four principles, mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te: "You are coming back to Me without any doubt." But instead of thinking Kṛṣṇa, we are thinking something else, planning something, misusing independence.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhīmasena, I was speaking to him two days ago. He says that he'll turn over that temple to us. He wants to meet you, so I'm going to call him to come and see you.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Nature? That means you are rascal. Nature is above you. Then worship nature. Be submissive. You are submissive already. It doesn't matter whether you accept or not; nature is pulling you. Nature is stronger than you. There is no doubt about it. Then why you declare that you are independent? You are not independent. Foolishly declaring independence. As soon as you are dependent, you must have to accept God. You may not know who is God and what is God, but somebody who is controlling you, your activities, He is God.

Cyavana: Prabhupāda, in the early fifties the scientists performed an experiment which substantiates their theory that life comes from matter, and they actually created a one-celled being. They made one cell which had life in it. It moved like an amoeba.

Prabhupāda: Then why do they not do now? What is the wrong now?

Room Conversation -- May 7, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: These nasty countries, in the name of giving them material facility, they'll kill them, even they're independent. Such a horrible country. How people can tolerate loss of independence? It is very horrible. I am sitting here 24 hours, this is another thing, but if I understand that I cannot go out, I have to sit down here, oh it is horrible. It is a horrible condition. Simply this impression that I have to keep myself within this room, although I am keeping myself, I am not going, only for walk maybe. But if the impression is that I cannot go out from this room, then my life is lost. This is psychology. So, they are keeping their young men. They are not allowed to go out of the country, in Russia. Similarly in China.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even more so.

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1976, Honolulu:

Hari-śauri: It boils down to this question of independence.

Prabhupāda: Ha?

Hari-śauri: They all want to be independent, but there's no chance.

Devotee (4): (break) ...in the kingdom of God, then he can become independent.

Prabhupāda: The idea of God is not for everyone. Only for the brāhmaṇas. Those who are brāhmaṇas at death, brahma-jānāti vibrāhmaṇa. Our process is to give them chance to hear. Then they'll get gradually idea, not immediate. In the beginning let him eat prasādam, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. (break) "My dear friend, please come. Chant with us, dance with us, and take prasādam." There will be no.... (end)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So why does He allow me to have this independence?

Prabhupāda: No, that is His.... Why not?

Rāmeśvara: Because it is not good for me.

Prabhupāda: Then you are not perfectly Kṛṣṇa's aṁśa. Kṛṣṇa has got independence. You see one son is born, even a father has got a black spot here, sometimes the son has got black spot.

Rāmeśvara: But if it's not good for me, if I will misuse it, why would Kṛṣṇa give it to me anyway?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So when Kṛṣṇa.... Kṛṣṇa knows that I will misuse my independence, but still He gives me independence.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy.

Rāmeśvara: Even though it is bad for me.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You say Kṛṣṇa knows you are going to misuse your independence.

Rāmeśvara: Because He knows everything in the past and everything in the future. So He must.... Kṛṣṇa is all-knowing.

Prabhupāda: This present, future, means, just like a father knows the..., how the child is. Now if the child changes, and touches the fire, Kṛṣṇa knows it will burn. He knew when the child did not touch the fire, his future. And when he touched the fire, Kṛṣṇa knew the result. So He always knows. His position is to know the future. He's always.... Now you are changing, what is the future due to your little independence?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So can you actually say that Kṛṣṇa knows you'll misuse your independence? He knows if you misuse your independence what will happen, but can it be actually said that...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...he knows you will definitely misuse...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...you can use your independence properly, it's up to you.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: But then that limits Kṛṣṇa. If you say that Kṛṣṇa did not know when I will misuse my indep.... or if I will...

Prabhupāda: No, no. That means you do not know what is the independence. You can, you can change your position at any time. That is your independence.

Prabhupāda: No. That Kṛṣṇa knows, when something charge is given. But because you are independent, I know that "Rāmeśvara is very good boy; let him be in charge." But you can misuse at any moment, because you have got independence. You can misuse at any moment. At that time your position is different. That is this Karandhara's, he was in this position, but as soon as he misused it, immediately, Kṛṣṇa changed his position.

Rāmeśvara: He's so foolish, he blames...

Prabhupāda: That is our foolishness, that we cannot understand. That is our foolishness. How you can understand Kṛṣṇa's activities?

Rāmeśvara: That's the only answer.

Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa is doing.... You are little independent, but He is fully independent. He knows everything. His independence is not under condition; your independence is under condition. If you misuse your independence, you'll suffer.

Rāmeśvara: His argument is that "I should never be allowed to misuse my independence."

Hari-śauri: There's no question of independence then.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is not independence. Independence means you can use properly or improperly.

Garden Conversation -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, no, machine we are, but still there is independence. That means you are not absolutely independently, relatively. The state, you say we are American-independent. But that does not mean you can do whatever you like. As soon as you misuse, you are arrested, punished. Even the president is not independent. As soon as he misused his power, drag him, "Come out." What to speak of you.

Hari-śauri: That's like an impersonalist. He doesn't want any individual existence.

Prabhupāda: And he does not agree to be guided by the supreme controller. He does not agree that He is supreme controller. "I am everything." Therefore they are called mūḍhas, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). Mūḍha. He's being controlled. As soon as there is some toothache, he goes to the doctor. And he says "I am God." He's becoming old, and he says that "I am God." Why you are becoming old? God is always young.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Discuss amongst yourselves. This is the point. We have got a short duration of life, and we declare independence of the laws of nature, laws of God, and do whatever we like, and as a result of our activities, we are obliged to accept a body which is not desirable. Then where is my independence? Why do they think they are independent and act independently? Is it not foolishness? Discuss amongst yourselves.

Nalinīkaṇṭha: That's described in the third chapter: ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā.

Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you. This is the disease. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). The rascal, he is bewildered, vimūḍhātmā, on account of false egotism. Just like we are inviting everyone: Please come and learn Bhagavad-gītā. "Huh! Bhagavad-gītā, let us go the sea and swim." Surfer, surfer? They are taking so much trouble. I have not see here; in Hawaii. For hours together, struggling with waves. I've seen it South Africa also. Very fond of this surf sporting. So they are wasting so much time and laboring so hard just to become fish.

Garden Conversation -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: By His personal expansion, He is manifested in various forms like Lord Rāma, Nṛsiṁhadeva, Viṣṇumūrti and all the predominating Deities in the Vaikuṇṭha planets. The separated expansions, the living entities, are eternally servitors. The personal expansions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual identities of the Godhead, are always present. Similarly, the separated expansions of living entities have their identities. As fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, the living entities have also fragmental qualities, of which independence is one. Every living entity has an individual soul, his personal individuality and a minute form of independence. By misuse of that independence, one becomes a conditioned soul, and by proper use of independence he is always liberated. In either case, he is qualitatively eternal, as the Supreme Lord is. In his liberated state he is freed from this material condition, and he is under the engagement of transcendental service unto the Lord; in his conditioned life he is dominated by the material modes of nature, and he forgets the transcendental loving service of the Lord. As a result, he has to struggle very hard to maintain his existence in the material world.

Garden Conversation -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Ignorance means completely lost of all independence. That is ignorance. Complete loss of, even little intelligence, all lost. In the modes of passion, there is little independence, and in the modes of goodness, he has got full independence whether to remain in the struggle for existence or go back to home, back to Godhead. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇaḥ. That is real knowledge platform.

Hṛdayānanda: (reading:) "This material covering perishes, but his spiritual body manifests in its individual capacity. The following information is there in the Mādhyandināyana-śruti: sa vā eṣa brahma-niṣṭha idaṁ śarīraṁ martyam atisṛjya brahmābhisampadya brahmaṇā paśyati brahmaṇā śṛṇoti brahmaṇaivedaṁ sarvam anubhavati. It is stated here that when a living entity gives up this material embodiment and enters into the spiritual world, he revives his spiritual body, and in his spiritual body he can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead face to face.

Room Conversation Excerpt -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Hitler one side, fought with the Britishers, smashed them. This is one cause. Another cause: Hitler helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize I.N.A. Two causes, the Britishers to go away. Otherwise, Gandhi's noncooperation movement was started in 1917, and we got our independence in 1947.

Indian Man: Thirty years.

Prabhupāda: Thirty years he could not do anything. And Subhas Chandra Bose in 1940 or '42, he went out of India and organized this I.N.A with the help of Hitler, and the Britishers were obliged to leave India. What do you think? That is my estimation.

Indian Man: Yes, I think so too. Yes, and he is also...

Room Conversation Excerpt -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: There is a great history.

Indian Man: Yes. I don't know if it is true. (break) ...taken sannyāsa, and just gone out somewhere.

Prabhupāda: So anyway, although you have got independence, India, oh, what is the profit?

Hari-śauri: The independence is just about to come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you start preaching there.

Prabhupāda: Real sva-raja is to go back to home, back to Godhead. (end)

Garden Conversation -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, no. You make a choice; you can change it. But as soon as you change it, God knows what you are going to do. This is very common sense. Suppose you are honest man; I entrust you with something. But as soon as you become dishonest, immediately I withdraw my interest (entrust?), because I know what you'll do. So you have got little independence. You are put into certain position, but you can change it at anytime. So your position is, actually, you are eternal servant of God. As soon as you change it, then your suffering begins. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find, after instructing Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, Kṛṣṇa is asking, "Now I have instructed you everything. Now whatever you like, you can do." Yathechasi tathā kuru. That independence you have got. Kṛṣṇa, or God, does not interfere with the little independence He has given to us. And because we are part and parcel of God, God is fully independent, so we have got little portion of independence. So by misusing that independence, we can desire to become God, and we suffer.

Garden Conversation -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles:

Arnold Weiss: Isn't it within the nature of our souls to have...

Prabhupāda: That is the nature, little independence. That is the nature. You can properly use independence, and you can improperly use. That is the meaning of independence. That you can use it improperly. Then you suffer. That is the meaning of independence. If it is that I have got independence—I cannot use it otherwise—that is not independence.

Arnold Weiss: So that small, miniscule amount of independence we have represents our free will in making decisions and choices towards either returning toward God or trying to go on our own way, which is the origin of our original position, being in this material world. Very interesting.

Garden Conversation -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So therefore Kṛṣṇa said that "The most confidential part of knowledge I am giving you, Arjuna, because you are My very intimate friend, that you give up your nonsense plans." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: (BG 18.66) "You just surrender to Me. This is the most confidential knowledge. You can misuse your independence, but I am instructing you most confidentially because you are My intimate. Don't make plans like rascals. You just surrender to Me. This is confidential." Or in other words, "Don't foolishly try to become God. You remain a servant. Surrender to..." This is the ultimate instruction. Find out in the Eighteenth Chapter, sarva-guhyatamam. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru.

Morning Walk -- June 11, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Germany is little recouped, but England is finished. Therefore I say India got independence not due to Gandhi. It is due to Hitler. That is my opinion. I have got reason. The Hitler fighting with England made them smashed, so their political power became nil almost, and on this opportunity, Hitler helped Subash Chandra Bose, one of the leaders of India, to organize Indian National Army. This Indian National Army, when attacked, at least made a show of attack from Imphala(?), especially on Calcutta dropped bombs, and the whole Calcutta became vacant. Perhaps myself and a few others remained. I sent my sons.... Of course, daughter was married, but they sent to Navadvīpa, Śrīdhara Mahārāja's āśrama. My wife refused to go out of Calcutta. She said, "I'll be bombed maybe, but I'll not go out." (laughs) So I had to remain in Calcutta. So I've seen bombing and Calcutta all vacant. And one day I was eating in the evening, at night—immediately bombing. Kachori... I was hungry, (laughs) but the eating finished.

Interview with Jackie Vaughn (Black Congressman) -- July 12, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: Read it.

Mādhavānanda: "Personal Secretary to the President, Office of the President of the United States, White House, Washington, D.C. Dear Sir: On your new two-dollar note it is stated 'In God We Trust' and directly beneath, 'Declaration of Independence, 1776.' On the two-hundredth anniversary of this occasion, why not begin teaching the science of God as described in the Vedic literatures, like the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is authorized and appreciated by all learned professors in the universities throughout the whole world? This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on since 1966 throughout the whole world, especially in the United States of America. It is a great fortune for the American people that they trust in God. Why shouldn't this spiritual education be given to the American people in an organized way? The whole world is going down and becoming Godless.

Garden Conversation -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: Why not our way of? If you want to enforce your way of life, why not I enforce my way of life? Then where is my independence? You cannot enforce your way of life. This is standard life.

Devotee: The neighbors around the farm, they like us.

Hari-śauri: Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja was saying that we're very popular with the neighbors there.

Prabhupāda: That is good sign.

Devotee: One farmer called his tractor the Hare Rāma tractor.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) They are getting daily fresh vegetable, fresh milk. It is very palatable.

Room Conversation with Ambarisa and Catholic Priest -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: You see this black men. They earn sufficient money, but see their home. See their home. You America, you have given them equal rights, they are getting money, but they have no culture. Therefore you may pay them as much as you like, but still poverty-stricken. In Africa also I have seen that they have got their own kingdom, independence, but if we go to the African slums, they are poverty-stricken, wretched. So this civilization will not endure. If there is no culture, simply by money you cannot maintain a standard of civilization. That is not possible. Now the American leaders they are thinking, "Let us have money, then everything..." Of course, by money you are covering all the defects of the social culture. But this will not endure. Day will come and everything will be exposed. Therefore culture required.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Kern: But to make a person ask is not the right kind of society. Shouldn't, if a person be the first-class citizen and therefore independent and therefore seek his own so that he could serve God by his own intelligence and his independence.... There's no virtue to be giving; it's more of a virtue to receive.

Jayādvaita: He's suggesting that because we are requiring that a person come to us for food, that somehow this is interfering with his independence.

Prabhupāda: Where is that independence? With his family he can come and take food. What is wrong there? We say that we should not..., we are not simply supplying food. Anyone who is coming, he is getting spiritual education. Not that it is a free hotel. No. It is not that. We give them spiritual education. You come here, you take your shelter, you take your food and learn how to be first-class man. That is our program. Don't be implicated in sinful activities. Be God conscious and live here with us comfortably, take your food. We have got this nice palace.

Interview with Professors O'Connell, Motilal and Shivaram -- June 18, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: To come to that Kṛṣṇa consciousness rightly and surrender to Kṛṣṇa, it takes many millions of births. But if one is intelligent, if this is the ultimate goal, that one has to come to this point, to surrender to Vāsudeva, why not do it immediately? That is intelligence. That is intelligence. Kṛṣṇa is canvassing. One has to take millions of births to come to this point, and Kṛṣṇa is personally promising, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). Why not take advantage? That means you do not agree. If you agree, the result is immediate. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). They are thinking, "Ah, Kṛṣṇa is also human being like me. Why shall I surrender to Him?" They are mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ. Then remain a rascal. What can be done? We have got little independence, because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. But because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, we have got little independence, so we can refuse. Although Kṛṣṇa canvassing, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), we can refuse: "Why shall I surrender to You?" That is our misfortune. But if you agree, you get immediate result. Therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

Interview with Professors O'Connell, Motilal and Shivaram -- June 18, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: So we have to come to that point, how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is nature's way, pulling by the ear: "Come here, do this." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). This will go on as long as you are not agreeing to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, there is no infringement by māyā. (break) (Bengali) You understand Bengali? So the process is going on by the laws of nature to give us different types of trouble. The main trouble is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). It will go on unless we surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Better surrender in this life and be perfect; then things are all right. And what is the benefit of our so-called independence? If we declare that we are independent of the laws of nature, is it possible? Is it possible? Then where is your independence? Why you are declaring falsely independence? If you declare yourself independent of God, then you become dependent on māyā. Just like the criminals. They don't care for the laws of the government. They become under the laws of the prison house, that's all. There is no question of independence. Either you remain free or in the prison house, you are under the laws of government. So why falsely declaring independent and don't care for the government? Outlaws. That is called māyā-false prestige which is not possible.

Garden Conversation -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: If he wants to remain in this material world, creates a situation and continues his desire, then he has to take... And when he understands that "To live in this material condition is very troublesome. Why shall I live here?" then he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious and he goes back to home, back to... And so long he desires, "No, why not? If I remain in this situation, I'll be happy," then he'll have to get a body. Nature will give him all chances: "Get this body." If one is very pleased to take raw flesh, "All right, why artificially? Take this body, tiger." That's all. Nature is... God is so kind. Before we were talking of God's mercifulness, so if you are thinking that it is very happy life to eat, without any discrimination, anything, so immediately God orders nature, "You give him body of a pig. He can eat anything, even up to stool. Give him this body." Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). This yantra, this vehicle, this body, is given to him: "Yes, now you can eat anything, up to stool." And he is very pleased. He wanted it. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). He does not hesitate or feel any inconvenience. God is there, even within the heart of the pig, "My dear pig, you wanted a body like this. You have now got it, now eat, here is stool. You eat." And he enjoys. So the living entity within this material world, he wanted to enjoy, "I am the monarch of all I survey." So God gives him all facility: "Whatever you want, you do." Karaṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad yoni-janmasu. He wanted it, therefore he gets different types of body. That is transmigration. But still He comes and teaches, "Rascal, why you are suffering in this way? Give up this plan; surrender to Me immediately." But he is making plan only. Just like in your country, there is everything opulent. The hippies are making plan, "We shall be happy in this way." What can be done? Everyone has got little independence.

Morning Walk -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Kīrtanānanda: This is a dog's business.

Prabhupāda: Dog's business. Without any fault, they'll chastise. We have no fault, still they are chastising. Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. You have got this independence. Little independence, more than the animals.

Kīrtanānanda: It's the end of the road, so I think we can turn here.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break).... in the kitchen, this wood or gas?

Kīrtanānanda: Both. Mostly wood.

Prabhupāda: There are so many jungles, we can use wood.

Kīrtanānanda: Actually we like it better.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, it is better, nice.

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Kīrtanānanda: Where is this?

Prabhupāda: In India, if you want to give one car donation, they'll not allow. They'll charge 230 paisa(?). (indistinct) Very nasty government.

Kīrtanānanda: Everywhere you go.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Kīrtanānanda: Everywhere now is nasty government.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dasyu-dharma, rogues and thieves, they'll... Government means people in general, they are losing their independence. Personal independence, nil. Russia, cent percent, no personal independence. Simply like animals who live. (end)

Rūpānuga: They are coming to watch the fireworks. You see, from here, the fireworks are going to be very high in the sky. They can see it from this point. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...celebration, independence from our point of view?

Hari-śauri: From our point of view, it doesn't have any meaning. For a conditioned soul to think that he's independent...

Prabhupāda: It is foolishness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think they're free from being controlled by the British, for example. Free from being controlled.

Prabhupāda: There is some meaning. That's all right. But where is your independence? You are fully under the control of the laws of nature. So where is your independence?

Yadubara: There is none.

Prabhupāda: Simply dog dancing is independence?

Vṛṣākapi: Ultimately, they are declaring their independence of God, Kṛṣṇa. They can do as they like.

Prabhupāda: Then where is that independence? You can declare anything. A crazy man can say anything, but where is your independence?

Rūpānuga: In fact, they are bound up.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is the question of independence? Whatever you do not want, it is being forced upon you. So where is your independence? Nobody wants any miseries. So everyone is miserable condition. Struggle for existence means to get out of miserable condition. So where is the independence? Now there is mist. How you can say you are independent? You cannot drive this mist, this fog. Unless sun rises, it cannot be cleared. So where is your independence? There may be so many accidents. Actually, it so happens. But you do not want. But here is an unfortunate. So where is your independence? It is not under your control. If the sun rises, then it can be dissipated. Otherwise, there is no question. Poor thoughts. What is here, this park?

Prabhupāda: Yes, sun is not your father's servant. He may not. It is not under your control. That is the point. You may think so.

Hari-śauri: They can only be hopeful.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Hope against hope. Independence means fully under your control. Whatever you like, you can do. Where is that independence?

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

(BG 3.27)

Foolishly thinking that "I am independent." Has anyone anything to say?

Vṛṣākapi: I was thinking that they are talking of independence, but they cannot even become independent of old age and disease. Their body, they try to control things, but their own body is out of control.

Prabhupāda: So many things.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One may say that if there's no independence, then where is the question of initiative in the material world, taking initiative?

Prabhupāda: Initiative? What is that question? Initiative I understand, but do you think that by taking initiative of independence you become independent, like this, by dancing and fireworks, you become independent? This is initiative, dancing like dogs, (sings) "We are independent, we are independent." (laughter) Does it have any meaning? Dance like a dog, that's all.

Hari-śauri: It's a big show, that's all.

Prabhupāda: Many fields, that is also conditioned. That is conditioned, that is not independence.

Hari-śauri: One has choice to become a dog or a cat, or...

Prabhupāda: Everything is conditioned. Therefore it is called conditioned life. There is no question of independence. That is foolishness. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that they are not independent, completely under the control of laws of material nature, and still they are thinking independent.

Rūpānuga: It is like a prisoner in the prison house thinking he has some freedom.

Prabhupāda: That freedom is danda jane raja jana nadi secu bhau.(?) Drowning the man in the water and, "Now you have independence, so breathe." (laughter) So he breathes in, "Ah! Ah!" "All right, you are now a little relieved, all right, again. Again become drown." "Oh! Save me, save me, save me, save me." "All right," take out, "now breathe, independently."

Prabhupāda: This is independence. Danda jane raj jana nadi secu bhai.(?) The rascal does not know "I am breathing independent, but at any moment I can be drowned again." Very correct example, danda jane raja jana nadi secu bhai.(?) No independence. Independence is only there when you fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa. You surrender your all independence to Kṛṣṇa. Then there is. "Kṛṣṇa, I have foolishly acted as independent, so many lives. Now I surrender all my independence at Your lotus feet. If You like, You can kill me; if You like, You can...," that is independence. Otherwise, there is no independence. All foolishness. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. By false egotism, he's thinking that "I am independent."

Prabhupāda: Misusing the energy. Yesterday, some two and half million the government has spent, and we also, combined together, we have spent ten million by power, gas, going there and coming. So many cars. Another ten million. So all these twelve million, three, thirteen million dollars spent for nothing. Dancing like dogs, independence, māyā. (break) (out of car) Ask him this question.

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda was saying in the car that yesterday the American people were declaring their independence. So he's asking what is the value to it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the value of it? They are enjoying their senses.

Prabhupāda: Now dog dancing. What is that song? Dog dancing? I sang that song?

Hari-śauri: (sings) "We are independent, we are independent."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) That is the spirit of patriotism.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you can say any name, any style or any trademark. Where is the independence? That is the question.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But Śrīla Prabhupāda blessed yesterday around the Capitol. There were so many people, and they seemed like they liked...

Prabhupāda: So many people, there are so many earthworms also. Ants also, gathered together. Does it mean they are independent? Hare Kṛṣṇa. You know the earthworms? They heap up earth and disappear. So you are, if you take it in that way, that big, big buildings, just like earthworms gathering up earth and then disappears. Actually that is the... Like the worms, we gather together and become a nation and apply all our energy, heaps of buildings, then finished. We go somewhere, you go somewhere. And who knows what he's going to be next life? Everything is going like that, family, community, national. Like the same earthworm, they gather so much huge dipi..., what is called dipi (?)in English?

Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla -- July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Not hills. Anyway, small or big, they gather together and then goes away, finished by the laws of nature. Washington, he gave you independence, but where he is? What he is doing? Where is that person who gave you independence?

Vipina: Would you like to walk this way today, Prabhupāda?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a basic difference between the earthworm and the man.

Prabhupāda: No difference. It is also living entity, you are also living entity.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But difference in the sense that the earthworm is, actually, it is not trying to violate the laws of nature. Just follows.

Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, the process of life is the same, biological. These rascals say that there is no soul of the animal, but is it correct biologically?

Prabhupāda: So, what is the difference if a dog is thinking that "I am dog," on account of his body, and if I am thinking I'm an Indian on account of this body. Then where is the difference between this dog and me? He is working under the impression that he's dog, and I am working under the impression I am Indian or American. Then where is difference? Yesterday you observed this great festival under this impression that "I am American. I must observe this independence." Is it not? What was the meaning of this festival? It was interesting to the Americans. Other nations, they are not interested. They are not observing this independence festival. But the Americans are observing. Why? Under this impression that "I am American." This yesterday...

Mr. Loomis: Under the impression that what?

Room Conversation -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: If devotees take up the whole world for management, then everyone will be happy. It is no doubt it. Kṛṣṇa wants that. He wanted the Pāṇḍavas should be in charge of the government. Therefore He took part in the fighting. "Yes, you should be the... All the Kauravas should be killed, and Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira installed." That is the dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). He wants everything goes very smoothly and people become God conscious. So their life be successful. That is Kṛṣṇa's plan. That, "These rascal misleading and therefore... the (indistinct) the human life has been spoiled." Therefore I was talking about the "What is the meaning of the independence, (indistinct)?" ? The life is spoiled. And they will spoil their life and become next life a dog, and this big, big building, with stair, that's all. What the big buildings will do benefit to these people who is going to be a dog next life? Taking as a theory, that those who have constructed this big, big building and next life they're going to be a dog.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.

Prabhupāda: Many, there are many reasons.

Devotee (4): I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature... Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how māyā works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how māyā works and how I might fall.

Prabhupāda: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa? They were Kṛṣṇa's doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiraṇyakaśipu or Hiraṇyākṣa?

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this.

Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?

Prabhupāda: That means you lose your independence.

Vipina: And no love.

Prabhupāda: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? (laughter) "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." (laughter) Is that love? So Kṛṣṇa does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape?

Interview with Trans-India Magazine -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: So we are not meant for that civilization. We are meant for the civilization by which one can understand his position, constitutional position, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Therefore our activities are different from the hogs and dogs.

Interviewer: So what is generally taken here... I mean, this is the American bicentennial year, and the Declaration of Independence talks about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Are you suggesting then that what is taken to be life is actually the antithesis of life? What is taken to be liberty is actually enslavement? And what is assumed to be the pursuit of happiness is nothing more than a rat race in which you try to make the best of what you can?

Interview with Trans-India Magazine -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: When a man becomes diseased, when a man becomes old, or when a man dies, they take it it is usual. They have been accustomed to these distresses so much that they do not take it as distress. So this is their ignorance. This is their ignorance. They do not know what is distress and they are struggling for moving the distress. Just like this independence. They do not know what is meaning of independence. Real independence is when you are free from these four kinds of distress. Does it mean that observing this kind of independence is real independence? It is simply fictitious. If you are not free from the laws of nature, nature will enforce you to die. Then where is your independence? Nobody wants to die, so why he's enforced to die? Nobody wants to become old man. Why he's enforced to become old man? But they have no brain to understand what is independence, what is happiness. They have taken distress as happiness. So that is due to lack of knowledge. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to elevate a person to the real standard of knowledge. Without knowledge a madman can say anything. A child can speak all nonsense.

Room Conversation With French Commander -- August 3, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: She cannot be alone. Na sataritatam ananti(?). Woman should not be allowed... Just like children. Children cannot be alone. They must taken care of. Similarly a woman, in childhood, should be taken care of by the father; when she's young, she should be taken care of by the husband; and when she's old, she should be taken care of by elderly sons. You'll find in the Vedic literature, the father's responsibility is until she's handed over to a suitable young man. And the husband's responsibility is so long she hasn't got elderly children. At that time, when she has got elderly children, he can leave home and take sannyāsa. So the process is a woman is kept under protection always. There is no independence for woman. That is... Still, in India it is going on. The father is obliged to find out a suitable husband for the daughter and give her in his charge. Then his responsibility finished. Until that, she is, he's responsible to take care of the daughter. Unmarried girl to remain always under the protection of the father.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is a supreme controller. That you have to admit. You are not independent. Why they foolishly think independent? What is the reason they're foolishly thinking independent? What is their independence? Nobody is independent. So why they are foolishly thinking independent? You first challenge them. They are not independent. Are you independent? So why they foolishly declare independent?

Jñānagamya: They are ignorant.

Prabhupāda: So what is the position then? They are in ignorance, and they are leading the society as scientist, philosopher, politician. That is misleading. They cannot go even freely in the so-called moon planet excursion or Mars. Still, they are declaring independence. What is their independence?

Prabhupāda: What is sectarian? Every sect the child is dependent of the parents. What do you mean by sectarian? Does it mean the Hindu child does not depend on the parents? The Muslim child depends on the parents? Everyone depends on the parents. Either he may be Hindu child or Muslim child or Christian child, that is the nature of the child. Similarly, you may be Hindu, you may be Muslim, you are dependent on God. This is a fact. What is sectarian? Can the Muslims say that "No, no, we are not dependent on God"? Can the Christians say like that? We have to take the general condition: everyone is dependent on God. Where is the question of sectarian? Now this cloud, it is clouded, everyone is expecting some rain. Does it mean the rain is Hindu rain or Muslim rain or Christian rain? Dependent on cloud. Everyone is expecting rain. It doesn't matter whether he's Hindu, Muslim or Christian. Why they declare independence?

Jñānagamya: They say independence means you don't need anything.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Nava-yauvana: He's trying to define independence, and he said independence means you don't need anything.

Atreya Ṛṣi: If you have no needs. Independence means that you have no need for anything else.

Prabhupāda: No, even if you have needs, if you can supply need, your needs you can supply yourself, then you can call independent. But that is not the position. You cannot get the supplies independently. Why you are expecting cloud? Because if there is rainfall, there will be vegetation. Then you will be able to grow food. So you are dependent. Independently you cannot create cloud. So where is your independence? Every step, you are dependent. Independently you cannot create cloud. So where is your independence? Every step, you are dependent. Why do you declare independence? What is this foolishness? What is their answer?

Hari-śauri: Well, they think they have some independence because they have to make so many decisions about how to live and how to operate society.

Prabhupāda: He'll answer for them. Law of gravitation.(?) (talking about child?) What is your independence? Are you independent?

Atreya Ṛṣi: There are all sorts of rascals, Śrīla Prabhupāda. One kind of rascal is the mūḍha kind, who like to enjoy. He thinks he is independent.

Prabhupāda: That is also dependent.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, but he thinks, "I can eat chicken or eggs or fish."

Prabhupāda: That's all right, that is dependent. Wherefrom the chicken comes?

Atreya Ṛṣi: From the fields.

Prabhupāda: Fields? No, it comes from the chicken.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, from the chicken, yes.

Prabhupāda: So therefore he has to depend on other chickens. (laughter) What is his independence?

Atreya Ṛṣi: But I can kill them and eat them.

Prabhupāda: That means if there is chicken you can kill. If there is supply of chicken, then you can kill. Otherwise, where is the opportunity of killing and eating?

Jñānagamya: You cannot kill all the chickens.

Prabhupāda: No, even they kill, they are killing, but killing facility will be there if there is chicken. Just like a tiger in the jungle. They are very expert, but they do not get food daily. Because the other animals, they also know, that part of the jungle there is tiger. They avoid going there. So he doesn't get daily food. He kills one animal and keeps it hidden and takes little, little. He cannot... They are always hungry, although they have got good strength, but where is the opportunity? And there is one small animal, he's called feow.(?)

Prabhupāda: That also I have already explained, you depend on another chicken's egg. You cannot manufacture the egg. That is my challenge, that you manufacture the egg by chemical combination and put into the machine. That you cannot do. Another living chicken must lay down the egg, then you can reclaim. You're dependent. Where is your independence? Everywhere you are dependent. How you declare independence? Where is your independence?

Dayānanda: They think that the countries that have the materialistic advancement or scientific advancements, that they are very well situated.

Prabhupāda: Well, scientific advancement, all this nonsense you can say. Just like Iran. God has given the oil underneath the ground, you are so proud. But if God would not give you the oil, then you starve in the desert. Then talk of improvement, nonsense. You're dependent on the oil. That is given by God. By God's grace, you have got some stock of oil, and there is good demand of oil. Then you are proud of making advancement. You are depending on the oil. The oil is supplied by God. You're dependent. Where is your independence? When the oil is finished, then your all pride is finished. Where is your independence?

Prabhupāda: He's giving intelligence. But if you don't accept, what can be done? He has come Himself, and He's giving intelligence. You take it and be happy. But if you don't take it, what God can do?

Hari-śauri: Then your argument that I have no independence, that's not correct.

Prabhupāda: No. You have got independence, little independence.

Atreya Ṛṣi: You have freedom to choose intelligence or be a rascal.

Prabhupāda: You have got independence to misuse your independence. That independence you have got. You have been given intelligence. Now you have got, because you have got intelligence, little independence, you can misuse that. Just like you are all my secretaries. So I give you some independence.

Prabhupāda: Says. He doesn't force you—you must do it. You do it. That means independence. Now it is your choice. You have got independence of misusing it. So independence is a quality inherent in living beings, because he's part and parcel of God. The quality of the father is inherited by the son, even physically. Similarly, you have..., God is fully independent, you have got little touch of independence. Now that independence is properly utilized when you carry out the order of God. That is proper. Ordinarily, every country is independent. Does it mean that he is cent percent independent? No. Then why there is police department? Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. We have got little independence. But if we misuse it, then we shall be punished. So there is no question of independence. Independence, little. That is interdependence, not independence. Why they declare independence? That is their foolishness.

Hari-śauri: It's always very relative.

Prabhupāda: Not absolute. Absolute independence, God. Even if you have got little independence it is relative, under condition.

Nandarāṇī: And the purpose of śāstra is to direct this minute independence so that it is not misused?

Prabhupāda: Just like in your state, you are independent citizen, but you must be guided by the laws. If you violate the laws, immediately you will be prisoner. The śāstra is like that, law. You have little independence, you can utilize it fully, under the laws. As soon as you violate, you are immediately put into suffering. Because you are a citizen of an independent country, America, doesn't mean that you can do whatever you like. But you do according to the laws of the country.

Prabhupāda: No, this question. Anyone can become criminal, any moment. There is no question of beginning. At any moment you can begin. You are honest gentleman, very good. You are working in a nice spot. At any time, any moment, you can become a criminal and go to prison house. That is... You are prone to... As soon as you misuse your little independence, you become a criminal. That is the difficulty. You have got some independence. As soon as we misuse that independence, immediately we are criminal, go to prison house. Daivī hy eṣa guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot cheat material nature. Immediately she captures. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare pasate māyā tare japati 'dhare. That beginning is possible at any moment. You haven't got to trace out the history. Event if you are very honest, you can become subjected to these criminal law at any moment. You are prone to that. So there is no use wasting time how it was begun. You are criminal. Now make your treatment that you may not become criminal again. If you go to a doctor, you have got some sickness, and if the doctor inquires, "How it began?" How it began? What business? Now I have got sickness, you treat me. That's all. What is the use of wasting time how it began? Some way or other, it has begun.

Prabhupāda: You are criminal. Now make your treatment that you may not become criminal again. If you go to a doctor, you have got some sickness, and if the doctor inquires, "How it began?" How it began? What business? Now I have got sickness, you treat me. That's all. What is the use of wasting time how it began? Some way or other, it has begun. Now I've come to you, make treatment. That's all. Why should we waste our time to find out the history how it began? That beginning can be possible at any moment. As soon as we misuse our little independence, immediately the beginning is there. A criminal means one who has violated the laws of the state. That is a fact. So when that violation began, so that is not very important thing. You have violated, you are in the prison house. That's all. That is important thing.

Ali: Yes, that's right. My question is answered, but my confusion is still...

Prabhupāda: What is that confusion?

Prabhupāda: Nobody. Do you think your king, Shah, is also happy? No. His sons, daughter, they are happy? No. He is also anxious how to keep his position, exalted position, he has to makes many plans, satisfy so many ministers, so many. He is also full of anxiety. And a small bird eating some grain here, he's attracted for the grain, but he's looking this way, "Oh, here is a man, here is man, he may not do some harm to me." So everyone is full of anxiety. Nobody can be free from anxiety. That is not possible. Sadā samudvigna dhiyam asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because we have adopted this material life, asad, our mind should always be full of anxiety. Nobody can be free from anxiety. That is not possible. Sadā samudvigna dhiyam asad-grahāt. Because we have accepted this temporary body, we have to be full of anxiety. This is law of nature. And if we act in this life to create another material body, then our all activities are spoiled. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. He did not ask about the constitutional position of himself, he simply engaged himself in dog's place(?). Then whatever activities he has done, it is simply defeat. Next body what he's going to get he does not know. If you become a minister in this life and next life you become a dog, then what is the benefit? Can anyone challenge this? "No, no, I'm not going to become a dog." Nobody can say. You are going to change the body—tatha dehāntara prāptir—now what kind of body you'll get, that will depend on nature, not on yourself. If you go to a tailor's shop, so you have to pay for if you want a better garment. Similarly, what kind of body you will get, that will depend on your work. So in this life you may be a prime minister, but if you have worked like menial dogs and hogs, then you are going to get body of a dog and hog. That is nature's gift. You cannot check it. You have no hand on the administration of the nature. That is not possible. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). If you have infected some disease, you must suffer from that. This is nature's law. You cannot say, "Although I have infected the smallpox disease, I'll not suffer." No, you have to suffer. Or you have to die of that disease. You cannot check it. So they do not know how nature is going. Declaring independence.