Imperfect (Conversations 1967 - 1973)

Expressions researched:
"imperfect" |"imperfection" |"imperfectional" |"imperfections" |"imperfectly" |"imperfectness" |"imperfects"

Notes from the compiler: VedaBase query for imperfect pages: "imperfect" or "imperfectly" or "imperfectness" or "imperfects" not "imperfect senses"@5 not "imperfect knowledge"@5

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation with Religious Group -- July 27, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: I am imperfect. That's all right. But I know what is perfection.

Guest (1): I cannot see that. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: No. Don't laugh. Suppose you are here. You have to go to London. If you have purchased the ticket for London and if you are sure that you have got an aeroplane, so even you have not gone to reach London, but you are sure that you are going to London.

Guest (1): Yes. I can be sure. I understand that, that you are sure. I have no doubt about that. But how can your security...

Prabhupāda: No, no, if I have understood that my destination is London—I am going to London—then if I feel secure, that is my happiness.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- January 17, 1971, Allahabad:

Prabhupāda: There is no "but." You are thinking.

Guest (1): I am thinking. One is at the lower level, and one is at the higher...

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Either in the lower level or in the higher level, you are thinking.

Guest (1): Yes, all right.

Prabhupāda: And therefore, because you are thinking in the lower level, therefore your thinking is imperfect. So to be in higher level, you have to surrender to a higher personality.

Guest (1): Higher wouldn't be better than that.

Prabhupāda: Just like child is thinking something. His thinking is lower level. But when he inquires from his father, that is higher level. The same thinking is he, but one stage his thinking is lower level; in another stage his thinking is higher level. But thinking always, he.

Guest (1): Yes, thinking is his always.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So tat knowledge is higher level, and therefore you have to accept that tat knowledge from a higher level personality, not from by yourself, because you are in the lower level.

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Śyāmasundara: A person's knowledge in the material world will always be imperfect no matter how much he may advance in scientific knowledge, he'll never be able to solve the problems of birth, death, disease and old age.

Dr. Weir: Yes. But I mean the American's I believe, they would say, "Of course, but so what? You can live without a country." If you start worrying about whether you'll ever be able to comprehend the intellect, you will really not get through the day.

Śyāmasundara: But the goal of life, being to become satisfied with my life, is not meant in that way.

Dr. Weir: Oh, I agree that to be satisfied with life is to cut down your desire for omniscience to be satisfied that you can only hope to do quite not, not, not all of the things you'd like to do, to comprehend quite not, not all of the things that are possible. If you are content with that you may be content to play. Otherwise you'll be one of these dreadful people that become paranoics. Because the world only pressures you (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Contentment... The death is there. If I, somehow or other, make a compromise, that is different thing. But I don't like to die. There is old age. I don't want to be old, but if I make a compromise that is a different thing. But my desire is not to become old, not to become attacked by disease, not to die. These are my desires. So I can make some compromise if unable to solve the problem. That is a different thing. But these are the problems.

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Rebuffed. So therefore they're...

Dr. Weir: Terrified, actually.

Prabhupāda: So because everything in this material world is the perverted reflection therefore we sometimes love somebody and we become frustrated. So therefore others see that this man has loved that girl and he's now frustrated, "Oh, why shall I love?" That is due to frustration. But there is a perfectional stage. There is a perfectional stage, therefore we say it is perverted reflection. Just like our Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa—that is the perfectional stage of love. Rādhārāṇī is a young girl and Kṛṣṇa is a young boy. There is love. So originally this love between young boy and girl is there but that is in perfect stage. Here in this material world, the same thing is pervertedly reflected. Therefore it is imperfect. So we have come to the perfectional stage, not be afraid and give it up-frustration. But, love is there. But there is a perfectional stage of love, we have to learn that.

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: That is for the voidist, not for the spiritualist. The spiritual life there is enough activity for even scientists. That they do not know. They mean spiritual life is void. That is negation of the present activities only, negative idea. But actually when you stop material activities your real activity begins. That is spiritual life. The spirit, spirit soul is active. You cannot stop it. You cannot stop it. Now it is acting through the coverings of material, matter, therefore it is imperfect activities. But if the activity is uncovered by material things that is real activity.

Mensa Member: But aren't desires biological in cause?

Dr. Weir: They're necessary.

Mensa Member: Yes, but they're biologically necessary rather than spiritually necessary.

Dr. Weir: Well, may I say, let's go farther, that when you say biologically necessary, is it necessary for you to be alive? What scientific...

Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda has told us that even in the spiritual world there is desire to have the senses enjoy. Isn't that so?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: But if you magnify the point you'll find there is...

Dr. Weir: But, coming back to...

Prabhupāda: It is a question of vision. With your present imperfect vision you do not see. When you take a magnifying glass you see, "Oh, there is length and breadth."

Dr. Weir: Ah, but that brings you, Swami, straight away into the problem of the infinite regress. It (indistinct) get smaller and smaller. But you know you might just as well stop at the beginning...

Śyāmasundara: ...I am the smallest of the small.

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Veda. (Sanskrit verse) God is greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest.

Dr. Weir: You're using materialist words, Swami. You're using materialist words, greater and smaller.

Prabhupāda: What you meant spiritual?

Dr. Weir: No, but I say you are using materialist words to describe them.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by spiritual? No speaking?

Dr. Weir: What I say is... (laughter)

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: That is the point.

Bob: Oh, I see. Is based on, you know, suppositions of this or that. So imperfect knowledge may be taught...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bob: Imperfect...

Prabhupāda: They're teaching imperfect. Just like they are advertising so much about moon. Do you think the knowledge is perfect.

Bob: No.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Bob: What do you think is the proper duty of the teacher?

Prabhupāda: No more. Huh?

Bob: What is the proper duty of the teacher in society? Let's say a science teacher. What should he be doing in the classroom?

Prabhupāda: Classroom, you should simply teach about Kṛṣṇa.

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Bob: I think that science cannot deny it, by scientific methods cannot deny it, or does scientific method show it. Science does not know of it.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, imperfect science.

Bob: Science may, though, say something. It is said in science that energy is never destroyed. It is just changed.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but how the energy is working in future, that science does not know.

Bob: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: How the energy is diverted, how by different manipulation the energy is working differently. Just like electric energy, by different handling it is creating heater and it is creating cooler. Just opposite. But the same electric energy. So similarly, these energies, living energy, how it is being directed, which way it is going, how it is fructifying in the next life, so they do not know. They do not know. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is very simplified. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). You are covered by this dress, by this shirt. When this shirt is not workable you change it. Similarly, this body is just like shirt and coat, when it is no longer workable, we have to change.

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: But follow... You must strictly follow if you are serious.

Bob: Maybe... O.K., maybe what I say now is the most foolish of all I've said, but let me tell you how I feel.

Prabhupāda: No, no, not foolish. I don't say foolish. But imperfect.

Bob: O.K., imperfect. But let me tell you. I feel that right now I admire and respect your devotees, but I don't feel as if I'm part of them or even a great desire to be part of them. I feel that I just want to do what is right and come closer to God, and if I just go to a better life next time, I'd be satisfied.

Prabhupāda: Very good life.

Room Conversation -- April 1, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: At once. Yes. The newspaper said that "Mr. such and such went to moon planet." Oh, immediately believe. See? A newspaper, ten cent worth newspaper. And in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva vratā devān: (BG 9.25) "One who can... One can go to the demigods planets by worshiping them. You can go, yānti deva vratā devān, as others. Similarly, one can come to Me by worshiping Me." Mad yājino 'pi yānti mām. So they never worshiped Chandra, and how they can go to the Chandra planet, or moon planet? Then Kṛṣṇa is false. Kṛṣṇa is imperfect. They become perfect. They are defying Kṛṣṇa's instruction. They have gone to moon planet. Then our whole propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes bogus. Therefore I always protest.

Sudāmā: They have not gone.

Prabhupāda: They have not gone. We have got our tests. I am speaking from the very beginning, "They have not gone." And practically you see, even if you have gone, what utility you have made? They are simply planning, again planning. "We shall get petrol from there. We shall have defense from there." Simply bluffing, simply bluffing. The Americans will go to the moon planet to defend his country from the Russians. Just see. And we have to believe all these nonsense proposals. What defense they will do from there? Is it not the proposal? Yes.

Room Conversation with Maharishi Impersonalists -- April 7, 1972, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Maybe same thing, but you will be puzzled by the different opinion. Therefore you have to take the path of great personalities. So we are following Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya chanted this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are following, and we are getting result. That's all. We don't manufacture our own way because we are imperfect. We cannot manufacture. That will not be beneficial.

Room Conversation with Maharishi Impersonalists -- April 7, 1972, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Because it is the thing required. Therefore it is recommended in the śāstra. Because it is recommended that... What is recommended in the śāstra, spoken in the śāstra, that is perfect. There is no mistake. Therefore it is being accepted. Anywhere we are going, beginning from old man to child, everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is recommended. Our intelligence should be applied there, that what is recommended in the Vedas, that is perfect. There are so many instances. Just like cow dung. You know cow dung? Stool of the cow? So according to Vedic principle, if you touch stool of an animal you become impure. Even my stool, I pass in the WC, and immediately I wash and become purified. Oh, this is my stool, personal, and what to speak of other stool? So stool is impure. But the Vedas say that the stool of cow is pure. So if you argue that "Cow is an animal. So animal stool is impure. How the cow stool can become pure?" that is puzzling, but because it is said by the..., ordered by the Vedas, it is fact. You analyze cow stool; you find all antiseptic matter. So therefore we accept the Vedic injunction as truth. We haven't got to make research. We save time. So according to Vedic civilization, whatever is stated in the Vedas, we take it-fact. That's all. Śruti. Śruti-pramāṇam. Śruti means Vedas. Pramāṇam means evidence. According to Indian system... There are two persons talking, arguing, but the person who can give Vedic evidence, he is victorious. That's all. That is the system. Just like in law court two lawyers are fighting, but the lawyer who is giving evidences from the lawbook, he is accepted by the judge. And therefore, generally you will find, whenever we speak something, we give evidence from the śāstra in Sanskrit, in all our books. That is the way of proving that whatever I am speaking, it is fact. In the Bhāgavata it is already stated, lavaṇyaṁ keśa-dharaṇam. Keśa means hair. To keep long, long hair will be the practice of people because they will think by keeping long hair they look very beautiful. That is stated in Bhāgavata. Five thousand years this prediction is there: "In this Kali-yuga people will keep long hair, and..., because that will be appreciated, that a man keeping long hair is very beautiful." So that is happening. Just see. Five thousand years ago, that was written, and that is happening. There are so many things. That is called śāstra. It is truth for all the days—past, present, future. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. These things are stated. "Husband and wife will keep together so long their sex power is strong. Otherwise they will divorce." This is written. Svīkāram eva hi udvahe: "Marriage will be performed simply by agreement." According to Vedic system, marriage is a long program. The father of the girl and the boy first of all select. Then their horoscope should be consulted, how they will mix together, and then the family, then personal qualification, so many things... Then dowry... After all this consideration, when everything is satisfactory, then the father and mother of both sides will agree, and they will be married. That is marriage. Now, at the present moment in Kali-yuga, it is said, svīkāram eva hy udvahe. Boys and girls will loiter in the street and two of them, as they agree, "Yes, we will live together." That's all. Bas. This is stated. And that is happening. So this is called śāstra. Five thousand years ago, what was predicted, that is now happening. Therefore we give so much stress on the śāstra that it is perfect. There is no mistake. If you write one book, I write one book, because we are imperfect, it is all imperfect.

Room Conversation -- May 4, 1972, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Then the atmosphere is the cause. Then next question is, Who created the atmosphere? (break)

Martin: This doesn't... This is why I feel science... I don't feel...

Prabhupāda: They have not found out the ultimate cause. They take a process which is going in the middle way; therefore their science is imperfect. But our science is perfect. We have found out the ultimate cause.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇah

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

(Bs. 5.1)

The cause of all causes. Therefore our science is perfect. We have found out the cause of all causes. But the material scientists, they simply can look to the process, how it is working. Just like a child sees the machine, how it is working, but he cannot know who has produced that machine. Therefore we see the child scientist. (laughter) Not better scientist.

Morning Walk Conversation -- September 28, 1972, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this is the symptom of Kali-yuga.

Prabhupāda: Not Kali-yuga. This is the symptom of conditioned soul. It is very prominent now in this age. Conditioned soul means these four defects—to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat others, and imperfectness of the senses. The scientists say that we do not know, that means imperfectness of sense. I am trying to see but the cloud is checking me, and I am considering beyond this cloud there is nothing. That is imperfectness of my seeing. Not... It is not a fact that beyond the cloud there is nothing. So these things are going on—cheating, illusion, mistake, and imperfect. And they are trying to come to a right conclusion. Just like somebody was telling that there is going to be a big conference of the Catholics to consider what wrong they have done. They can see that the people are rejecting the so-called Christian religion. So now they are thinking (indistinct). But it is also another cheating. They are deliberately violating the principles of Christian religion, and still they say, "What we have done?"

Morning Walks -- October 1-3, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Even in ordinary dealings, people will cheat you. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (Sanskrit) Everyone is cheating. Even in ordinary talking, they will tell so many lies. (break) They live nicely in fresh air, in open air, trees, and talking about their business and they are happy. They have no problems for eating, sleeping, mating, nothing. Everything is there. And we are claiming civilized. We are dealing with science to improve conditions, the rascals they are becoming more and more degraded. They have no science, they have no laboratory, they have no university. How they are living peacefully? So it is... If this life is better or this life of cheating and imperfectness, full of anxieties, this life is better. Which life is better?

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- April 20, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: But... Thing is that they are studying the laws very nicely. That's good. But they should appreciate that who has made this law? That is their defect. They are studying how the laws of nature is working. That's nice. But they should appreciate at the same time: Who made such subtle laws that they are working so nicely? That is our philosophy. We do not only study the laws and appreciate it, but we study the law-maker also. That is the difference between ourself and the so-called scientists. They are left, poor fund of knowledge. They cannot appreciate that there is a law-maker of these subtle laws. That is their defect. That is called poor fund of knowledge. And as soon as we accept law-maker, we have to accept that He's a person, He has got brain. Therefore He can make laws. Just like the great ocean is working, but there is a law. It cannot come here. Although there is potency. At any second it can cover the whole city But there is a law. Just like state laws. Up to this. No more admission. You have to stop. Similarly, there is law of God. Where there is order: You mighty ocean, you cannot come beyond this. This is law. There is sun. "You must rise at half-past, at five o'clock in the morning." "Yes, sir." This is law. "You must rise on the Eastern side." "Yes, Sir." Not whimsically. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side, sometimes that side. Cannot do whimsically. That is law of nature. And behind the law of nature, there is the order-giver, law-maker. This is perfect knowledge. mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Under My superintendence, the laws of nature is working." This is intelligence. We are teaching people this intelligence. That's all. We don't decry that your studying of the laws of nature is useless. We don't say that. We say: "Not so much. This is imperfect. Go forward still." And that is perfection. You are a science student. By your scientific knowledge, you prove that behind these laws, there is Kṛṣṇa. Then your scientific knowledge is perfect. Either from the chemical department or physical department or electrical department.

Morning Walk -- April 20, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Eh.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Computer will reject, saying that: "I cannot do it."

Prabhupāda: They reject?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Something which is not possible...

Prabhupāda: Then, then it is imperfect. If he cannot count, reject, then it is imperfect. Hare Rāma Hare Rāma...

Karandhara: They would estimate.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karandhara: They would estimate.

Prabhupāda: What is that, estimating. Estimate how many...?

Karandhara: They cannot count perfectly. So they estimate.

Prabhupāda: Rough idea. (pause) So on the sea side, it is more pleasant than in the park. Is it not? Brace air. (pause) This is bike route? Bicycle route?

Karandhara: Yes.

Morning Walk -- April 25, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Without the proper guidance...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything requires guidance. You are working in the laboratory under guidance. Similarly, everything requires guidance. Just like these small birds. First of all, they learn with the mother. The mother goes and they go. The mother come back, they come back. So guidance. Nature's way, guidance. And when they become little habituated, then without mother, they can do their business. That guidance is there everywhere. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause—break) ...kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti (BG 8.15). "Anyone who reaches Me, he does not come back to this material world full of miseries and temporary life." That means anyone who goes back to home, back to Godhead, there is no misery, there is no temporary life. It must be the opposite. Mām upetya punar janma duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti (BG 8.15). Saṁsiddhiṁ paramām... That is highest perfection. Paramām. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramām. Every... all this scientific research is going on for perfection. They say the world is imperfect. That's, that is a fact. Imperfect. Imperfect means here you cannot get happiness and cannot live permanently. This is imperfection. That they do not know. That question they set aside. The problem, if you say to the scientist: "What you have done for the human society to live eternally in perfect happiness?" What is their answer?

Morning Walk -- April 26, 1973, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: It's too hot.

Prabhupāda: Too hot. Electric fan required. So we are always in miserable condition. We are trying to avoid these waves so that I may not be in miserable condition by wetting my shoes. So there is always struggle. Nature is trying to put me in miserable condition, and I am trying to save myself or to keep myself comfortable. This is called struggle for existence. They say that the world is imperfect. They, do they not admit?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So imperfect means it is not congenial for my joyful life. Therefore we are inventing something to become joyful.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is what scientists are trying.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is...

Prabhupāda: That means you are struggling. That means you are in miserable condition. So why you are put into miserable condition? Why do they not ask this question? This is intelligence. You are submitting. You are trying to get out of the miserable condition, but you are unable. You are submitting. Therefore nature is very forceful. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot surpass. It is not possible. Then the next question will be: "How we can surpass?" That is real inquiry.

Morning Walk -- April 29, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That, that, that also shows that the, there is superior person than man to worship.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is my point. You have to worship somebody superior. Now it is up to you to select who is that superior. But the principle is there. Now so many political parties, they have selected one god. Somebody has selected Churchill. Somebody has selected Gandhi. Somebody has selected somebody, somebody. But they must have to select. Our proposition is: "If you are selecting somebody to worship, why not the perfect? Why you select the imperfect?" That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have to do it. You have to select somebody as your leader. You cannot do without it. So the answer is that if you are selecting somebody to worship, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā: mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is nobody superior than Me." Then why not go to the best person? Why should we go to the inferior?

Karandhara: For all the six opulences, they will choose someone.

Morning Walk -- May 5, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So consciousness is also subject to body's changes, change of body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Body's circumstances association. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. According to association, atmosphere, circumstances, the desires changes. So that is, desire means consciousness. Just like our boys, they had different consciousness before coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like you are also scientist, there are other scientists. But your consciousness is different from theirs. Therefore you could challenge him like that. If you can create life by accumulation of these facts. He says that I do not know. He is not confident in his science.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He is not experienced. He has not seen yet.

Prabhupāda: He is not above the defects, four defects of conditioned life. You know these four defects?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Illusion, mistake, cheating, imperfectness. They are aware of the imperfectness of the senses. Still they are proud of their knowledge. This is illusion. (end)

Morning Walk -- May 9, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: What is that experiment?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Boil water first of all. Without boiling water, they can detect so many organisms, small, small bacteria and these small, small living entities under microscope. But when they would boil it and it kept for some time, and then they tested, there was no organisms.

Prabhupāda: But that microscope is imperfect. That is our contention. Because the living entities, the dimension of the living entity is 1/10,000th part of the top of your hair. So what you can see?

Karandhara: Also, they make the condition unsuitable for the spirit soul to occupy. Just like if we take and kill all these bodies and put them somewhere, and come back in a week, it's not that life will come back to the bodies. They make the circumstances unsuitable for the spirit soul.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another explanation. It takes time. Besides that, according to Bhagavad-gītā, life is not killed by fire. Aśoṣyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam. You have not read it? Adāhyaḥ: "It cannot be burnt into fire." So how life can be killed by boiling water? That is their nonsense.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Paramātmā is not material body. Paramātmā's energy. Just like heat and light is the energy of the sun. The sun is not feeling heat and light. For him, everything is all right. There is no heat in the sun, body of the sun. He doesn't feel any heat. You are feeling heat. Similarly, for Paramātmā there is no such thing: this is material, this is spiritual. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). We hear that He has got different energies. His energy is one. Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā. That is spiritual only. Just like sunshine. That is sunshine. Now we are seeing it is covered with cloud. It is our imperfectness. But there, in the sun, there is no such thing cloud. Experience, practical experience. The sun is not experiencing cloud, although there is cloud. We are experiencing. Similarly, this matter and spirit is for us, not for Him. He, either He comes in so-called material body or spiritual body it is the same. It is the same. For Him it is like that, the same, because it is His energy. He can turn matter into spirit, spirit into matter. That He can do.

Morning Walk -- May 14, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness because, as this body... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As this body's changing in my experience, similarly, there's another change.

Karandhara: Well, actually, they're able to observe this change, but they can't observe that change.

Prabhupāda: But you cannot observe, your rascal eyes are so imperfect, you cannot observe so many things. That does not mean science. Why don't you admit your imperfectional senses? You first of all admit the imperfectional senses. You cannot see. You cannot experience. That, does it mean that is science? So many dogs they cannot understand what is the law of nature. Does it mean that nature does not exist? Why do you think your sense are perfect? First of all, admit that you're the most imperfect.

Karandhara: They'll admit that, but they say the way of becoming perfect is through objective information and experience.

Prabhupāda: No. Way of becoming perfect is different. You cannot become perfect by your imperfect thinking. How you can become perfect?

Paramahaṁsa: Another question, Prabhupāda, that could be raised is that "If the soul is eternal and passes through one body after another, how is not possible that it accepts, let's say, three, four, five bodies and then dies?"

Prabhupāda: You are accepting millions of bodies and then die. That you do not know. I say that your body of yesterday is not of this body. So, similarly, if we live for one hundred years, how many bodies you are changing every moment? Just calculate.

Room Conversation with Krishna Tiwari -- May 22, 1973, New York:

Prabhupāda: That's all. That you don't know.

Devotee (1): So then your process is imperfect. You admit. We're saying that there's a process which is perfect, and it's a process of receiving knowledge which is absolute, that is descending, and receiving that with a submissive attitude. And you're saying that by your sensuous endeavor with your different machines and instruments, you can ascend to the Absolute Truth. But the symptom of a person who is in knowledge is that he's satisfied, he's peaceful within, and we can understand that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness society is developing, is helping living entities, people, become satisfied within by receiving knowledge and actually coming to, to understand themselves and what's around them and so forth, whereas, let me ask you, how many people have actually come to this stage of peacefulness and knowledge, of being freed from the need for intoxication and so many different things, by your scientific method? In other words, has this process helped you to be actually filled with knowledge and bliss, or has it simply sent you into more questioning and more doubt until you come to a point of what we were discussing the other day, the Heisenberg's theory of uncertainty? Ultimately you come to the theory of uncertainty. So we're saying, when you come to this point, then you may as well just relax and try to have a submissive attitude, or any scientist, and try to receive knowledge which is descending.

Prabhupāda: Another, another thing is, he says, he says that he does not know what is there beyond this material nature. But he's still satisfied with that imperfect knowledge.

Devotee (1): That's right. You should not be satisfied with that imperfect knowledge.

Krishna Tiwari: Wait a minute.

Prabhupāda: To be satisfied with imperfect knowledge is the qualification of an animal.

Room Conversation with Krishna Tiwari -- May 22, 1973, New York:

Prabhupāda: But you are happy with imperfect knowledge.

Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. (laughing) Again it's the same thing.

Prabhupāda: You said, you said... No. You are happy with your imperfect education of an animal.

Krishna Tiwari: Everybody is.

Prabhupāda: Imperfect knowledge and happiness.

Krishna Tiwari: Only perfect can be then your superpower, which you're talking about. You cannot be perfect either.

Prabhupāda: No. no. I am not perfect, but I am following the perfect. That is...

Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well, superpower, everybody is following a superpower, everybody else...

Prabhupāda: That is... No. You have no such power. You have no such superpower.

Room Conversation with Krishna Tiwari -- May 22, 1973, New York:

Prabhupāda: That, then our knowledge is perfect and your knowledge...

Krishna Tiwari: Then sit and just request him to do something.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Devotee (1): No. The process is given. If, he, he...

Prabhupāda: Just... We, the difference is that your process is imperfect because you do not know exactly who is the controller of the laws of nature.

Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else does know either.

Prabhupāda: I, nobody... I say know, still you say nobody knows.

Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yeah, I agree. That's your belief, but I don't think you know that.

Prabhupāda: Why belief? I say your belief also. That there is no controller there, that is also your belief.

Krishna Tiwari: No. There is a controller. I say you don't know.

Prabhupāda: Why you are giving so much importance to your method of understanding?

Krishna Tiwari: (laughs) Because there is only one each of us can do.

Prabhupāda: That is (indistinct). So if you give so much importance to your method of understanding, why don't you give importance to our method of understanding?

Krishna Tiwari: Well, I haven't seen the results of...

Prabhupāda: Your method is imperfect. I have seen.

Krishna Tiwari: But others is more imperfect.

Room Conversation with Krishna Tiwari -- May 22, 1973, New York:

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Krishna Tiwari: Others is...

Prabhupāda: No, others are perfect.

Krishna Tiwari: Very imperfect, Swamiji. Very imperfect.

Prabhupāda: No, very perfect. Very perfect.

Krishna Tiwari: Exactly what I'm saying to... Well that's what I'm saying.

Śyāmasundara: What is your standard of perfection?

Krishna Tiwari: What?

Śyāmasundara: What is your standard of perfection?

Krishna Tiwari: My, well my, to understand the law of nature, first thing. Now, when, when scientists have gone to understand the law of nature... (end)

Room Conversation with David Wynne, Sculptor -- July 9, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Again, the same... You are comparing with yourself. Because your person can stay in one place only. That means you are simply comparing the Personality of Godhead with your personality. That you have to forget. He, He stays everywhere. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (Bs. 5.37). Therefore we have to consult the authoritative Vedic literature. This answer is there, that goloka eva nivasaty, "He is living in Goloka Vṛndāvana; still, He is everywhere." You cannot think of. You are in this apartment. You are not in your office. But Kṛṣṇa, although He's in Goloka Vṛndāvana, He's everywhere, in everyone's heart. He's seeing everything. That you cannot imagine, how it is possible. That means you want to compare with your, this foolish, imperfect personality with God's personality. That is our defect. He's distinct from our personality, but He's a person. Yes. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He's also a person like us, He's also living entity like us. But what is the difference? He's the maintainer; we are maintained. How many persons you can maintain? A family of two children and one wife, you are embarrassed. And He's maintaining everyone. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti... Innumerable living entities, He's supplying food everyone. He's supplying food the ants within the hole of your room there are thousands of ants. You are not supplying food.

Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London:

Mr. Wadell: Oh, I see. You mean just as you distinguish from white, black because it is different...

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is relative world.

Mr. Wadell: I agree, but I am using this in, as an example, not as an absolute description. I think my view—may I explain this—of the whole of which I am, as I say, I think, an imperfect part, a part which is trying to learn something which I am not even quite sure what it is that I am trying to learn...

Prabhupāda: No, no, this is... You are perfect gentleman, means that you say that "I am imperfect." That is nice. But our point is that from imperfect man, imperfect knowledge is received. We cannot expect perfect knowledge from imperfect man.

Mr. Wadell: No. But where does your perfect knowledge come from and how do you recognize it?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very important point, where to get the perfect knowledge. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Therefore the Vedas says, gurum eva abhigacchet: "You go to a guru." "Guru" means heavy, who knows better than you, or who knows perfect. That is injunction.

Room Conversation with Two Buddhist Monks -- July 12, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So that is, I am pointing out. Leadership,... God means "the leader." According to Vedic injunction, God means "the supreme leader." Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the chief living entity. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). God means the Supreme Leader. So leader you have to accept. That is the conception of God. Either you select Buddha or Lenin or somebody else, you have to accept one leader and follow. That is your business. So our philosophy is that Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, He's the Supreme Leader. And we are to obey His orders. This is our philosophy. So if you do not obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa, if you obey the orders of Lord Buddha, or somebody obeys the orders of Lenin, the principle is there that you have to follow the orders of somebody. Now, you select Lenin, Kṛṣṇa or Buddha or Gandhi or anyone. That is a different thing. But the principle—to accept one leader and follow his leadership—is there everywhere. That nobody can change. That is not possible. So the professor could not give me any satisfactory answer, you see. The leadership you have to accept. You cannot do anything independently. You have to accept. That is our constitutional position, that we have to follow somebody. Now you select whom you shall follow. If you are following the most perfect, then you become perfect. And if you are following less perfect or imperfect, then you are imperfect. This is our philosophy. You have to follow some leader. If your leader is perfect, then you are perfect. If your leader is not perfect, then you are also not perfect.

Room Conversation with Lord Brockway -- July 23, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So if he gets understanding from God, how there can be any defect? If he's not getting direct understanding from God, that means he's still imperfect.

Mālatī: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Pradyumna: Need some table.

Devotee: I have some kind of table.

Śyāmasundara: Can we use this table?

Devotee: I have some... (Sounds of setting up prasādam?)

Prabhupāda: Just like...

Lord Brockway: Thank you very much.

Mālatī: Thank you for waiting. I'm sorry it's a little late.

Prabhupāda: This is... These European and American girls, they have learned to prepare... (some background noise) Oh, you have prepared for me? No, I don't want any more.

Room Conversation with Mister Popworth and E. F. Schumacher -- July 26, 1973, London:

Haṁsadūta: So they have invited youth from all over the world to come and see what they are doing there. So some of our devotees went there just the past week. And they reported to me that at every moment during the day that they were there they were surrounded always by at least three hundred young people who simply stood taking notes and asking questions about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They want to know what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what they are doing. That means that there is some dissatisfaction. They want something. They want something substantial. And they're getting it from Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This philosophy is substantial. It is practical. They are hankering for it. Their so-called communist philosophy is not perfect. It's imperfect.

Popworth: They were communist youth who were surrounding?

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Popworth: The people.

Haṁsadūta: Yes. They were surrounding our devotees and asking questions and taking notes and taking addresses.

Popworth: But the people who are at the conference are not all communist youth, are they?

Haṁsadūta: Well, whoever they may be, they've gone there with some interest about communism. Otherwise, they would not go there. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is perfect communism, Prabhupāda always explained, because communism, so-called communism, they give advantage only to the human being, but not to the animals or the other living beings. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is pure, genuine, absolute communism because we recognize that the Supreme... Everyone should work for Kṛṣṇa. Everything should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is the supreme head of state, and everything is utilized for His purpose, His service. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you do as work, whatever you eat, whatever you give away, you do it for Me." The same philosophy... Communist philosophy is "Everyone works for the state; the state will distribute." Right? But it's imperfect. But here is the perfect thing. Kṛṣṇa, He is the supreme creator, He's the proprietor. Therefore everything must be used for His pleasure. Then it becomes perfect communism.

Prabhupāda: Instead of making the state center, make God center.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Yogeśvara: Very popular today is the idea that if we are use, misusing our independence, it's because of our upbringing, our childhood, our society, something is wrong in our psychology. Not that it's the soul, not that it's a question of spiritual problem, but material one, that our parents were cruel or our society, our education was imperfect or something. But not spiritual problem.

Prabhupāda: So that is independence. Your parents were cruel. Therefore you have revolted against the parents. That is your independence. Why you revolted against parents? Because you have got the independence.

Devotee: What shall we say to someone, Prabhupāda...

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, if you are doing stereotyping, then in spite of your father being cruel, you would not declare independence and go away from home. Because you have got this independence, therefore you can understand that: "Why shall I obey this father? I go out." That is independence. They do not understand the meaning of independence.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: That, that is independence. That is also independence. You accept: "Yes, what you say, it is right. But I'll not accept." That is also independence, misuse of independence.

Yogeśvara: Like Dhṛtarāṣṭra, when he heard the arguments from Vidura.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So God's creation is perfect. There is no imperfect.

Guru-gaurāṅga: Does there come a time Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one misuses his independence, the independence is taken away? For example, if...

Prabhupāda: Now why shall He take away. What He has given to you, why He shall take?

Guru-gaurāṅga: In animal life?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guru-gaurāṅga: Animal life?

Prabhupāda: Animal life, what is that?

Yogeśvara: Do animals also have independence?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got little independence.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Guest (2): Yes, I accept that view. But how do you prove that a man...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore you take from the perfect, Kṛṣṇa. We take from Kṛṣṇa's representative. One who speaks as good as Kṛṣṇa. That is our process. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). We don't take, don't accept knowledge from any rascal. We accept knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. I may be rascal, but because I am receiving knowledge from the perfect, whatever we speak, that is perfect. A child may be innocent he does not know. But he has learned that this article is called spectacle. So when he says, the child says, "Father, this is spectacle." This is perfect knowledge. Similarly, if you hear from the perfect and act accordingly, then you are perfect. Now Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. After death there is another body. So we accept it. It doesn't require any proof of so-called science who's imperfect.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: No, then it is skepticism. There is no progress of knowledge. There is no progress of knowledge. As far as man can understand, as Mr., you are Mr. Bannerji?

Guest (1): Mr. Howler. (?)

Prabhupāda: Howler? Yes. So, there is little logic there, as a human being can understand. That's all. And if we accept this theory, that logic, our logic is imperfect, we cannot understand, then we have to accept authority. Just like a child. Mother says, "Here is your father." There is no logic. There is no logic. He has to accept. Only the mother version is logic, That's all. Authority. Is it not?

Guest (1): Yes, that's true.

Prabhupāda: Then where there is no logic, the authority must be accepted. Therefore we accept that authority. Śabda-pramāṇa. The best evidence. Śabda-pramāṇa. There are different evidences. Out of that, veda-pramāṇa, śabda-pramāṇa is first class. All right, thank you very much. Jaya.

Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Pearl has been attending our temple and following the regulative principles.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, Dr. Suneson -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: Prakṣepātmikā.

Pradyumna: "...śakti, the power to throw the living entity in the ocean of material existence, and āvaraṇātmikā-śakti, the power to cover the knowledge of the living entity. The function of the āvaraṇātmikā-śakti is explained the Bhagavad-gītā by the word: māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. Why the daivī-māyā, or illusory energy of Kṛṣṇa takes away the knowledge of the Māyāvādī philosophers is also explained in Bhagavad-gītā by the use of the words āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ, which refer to a person who does not agree to the existence of the Lord. The Māyāvādīs, who are not in agreement with the existence of the Lord, can be classed in two groups, exemplified by the impersonalists Śaṅkarites of Vārāṇasī and the Buddhists of Saranātha. Both of them are Māyāvādīs, and Kṛṣṇa takes away their knowledge due to their atheistic philosophies. Neither of them agree to accept the existence of a personal God. The Buddhist philosophers clearly deny, clearly deny both the soul and God, and although the Śaṅkarites do not openly deny God, they say that the Absolute is nirākāra, or formless. Thus both of them are aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32), or imperfect and unclean in their knowledge and intelligence."

Prabhupāda: What do you think?

Professor: That's... Of course, in the introduction to Śaṅkara's commentary to Bhagavad-gītā, he does, it seems, if it is for him, which is that...

Prabhupāda: He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, Dr. Suneson -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm:

Professor: Hm.

Prabhupāda: The instrument which he is using for speculation, that instrument itself is imperfect.

Professor: Well, normally our knowledge will be imperfect in some way or...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Professor: Normally our knowledge is imperfect in one way or another.

Prabhupāda: How it is perfect?

Professor: Im...

Haṁsadūta: Imperfect.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: Imperfect.

Professor: That is...

Prabhupāda: So imperfect knowledge, one who has got imperfect knowledge, how he can give lesson perfect?

Professor: No, but you can still give something, even if you...

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right, you get something, but that is not perfect.

Room Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist -- September 10, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: Because it has began from imperfect. Therefore conclusion must be imperfect.

Dr. Hauser: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But if we begin from the perfect, the conclusion will be perfect. What are the four defects? Explain.

Haṁsadūta: Uh, four de... Every conditioned soul, you or I, anyone, born in this material world, he's defective by four things. He has got imperfect senses. Just like you don't see what's happening beyond the wall. So this is imperfection of the senses. There are so many examples. The next thing is you're subjected to be illusioned. You may accept a thing for real which is not real. Just like we accept the body as self, but we are not the body. The body is a lump of matter. We are simply witnessing the changes of the body, but we are not the... So this is illusion. Then...

Prabhupāda: Mistakes.

Room Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist -- September 10, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Bhāgavata verse, janmādy asya (SB 1.1.1), asya janmādi (indistinct) concise word but volumes of meanings. Volumes. Each word is like that. Vidyā bhāgavata-vali(?). Therefore one's learning is complete when he reads Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Otherwise he remains imperfect, in spite of all learning. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), from where? Now the creation of this cosmic world, from where? But you do not know from where. This is explained in Bhāgavatam. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. That is actually true. In this way simply if you analyze one verse, you'll find each word is full of volumes of meaning. Janmādy asya yataḥ, anvayāt (SB 1.1.1). Like the creation, anvayāt, directly and indirectly, itarataś cārtheṣu, in the matter of understanding, abhijñaḥ. Abhijñaḥ means completely cognizant. That is the Absolute Truth. He knows everything—how this universe is created, how it is maintained, how it annihilated, directly and indirectly. Just like, I always, regular, everyday thing, when I am massaged by my student, I see so many veins so I think that I claim, "This is my leg," but I do not know what are these veins. Directly I know this is my leg, but indirectly I do not know how this leg is working with these veins and nerves and muscles. I do not know. But so far God is concerned, He has created. He knows every veins and everything. That is called abhijñaḥ. In this way you analyze every word, you'll find volumes of meaning. The next question, "Where you got this experience?" You say He's abhijñaḥ, He knows everything. To get experience one must have teacher. But the next word is svarāṭ, He's experienced and self-sufficiency, svarāṭ, independent. He hasn't got to go anywhere for experiencing. In this way each word is full of meaning. Janmādy asya yataḥ, anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ, tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1). We have very shortly described this one verse. I think five, six pages. You've got that verse?

Interviews with Macmillan and various English Reporters -- September 12, 1973, London:

Reporter (3): Do people lose this consciousness, the God...?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Reporter (3): Do people lose God consciousness as they grow older?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, unless a person comes to God consciousness, his consciousness is imperfect.

Reporter (3): And the actual importance of the Hare Kṛṣṇa chant, is that in saying the name?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a...

Reporter (3): Or is it a...

Prabhupāda: ...spiritual process.

Reporter (3): ...continuous flow?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a spiritual process because Kṛṣṇa and the name Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa the person and Kṛṣṇa the name, They are nondifferent, Absolute. That is the God's special power. Just like in the material world, if you want water, simply by chanting the name "water," you'll not be benefited.

Room Conversation -- September 18, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Preaching is our only business, preaching. Whatever we do, it is aimed at preaching. Namaskāra. (break) That is our business. Whatever we are doing, it is for preaching. (break) In, in the practice, or in the engagement of preaching, their position is better than those who are worshiping the Lord in a secluded place, bhajanānandī.

Acyutānanda: What about those who are preaching, but imperfectly, and those who are...?

Prabhupāda: Even it is imperfect...

Acyutānanda: It's better than just sitting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) If he's sincere, it cannot be imperfect. Because... We are always imperfect, but Kṛṣṇa will help us. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam (BG 10.10). How he can be imperfect? Kṛṣṇa will give him intelligence. Imperfect means whose intelligence is not perfect. But when Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence, how he can be imperfect? He may be imperfect, but he's being helped by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's not imperfect.

Guest (1): Pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation).

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's associating with Kṛṣṇa. And unless one is confidential devotee of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa does not speak with him. But when he becomes perfect, confidential servitor, Kṛṣṇa speaks with him, "Do like this, do like that," and he'll do that. And therefore in his action, you won't find any fault. (break) If somebody perfect instructs him, "Do like this," then my action is not imperfect. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). If I say, "Yes, you give up everything. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then I am perfect. And if I say, "So 'ham. I am Kṛṣṇa," then you are imperfect. Is that...? (break) "...the same. I am the Lord. I am the Supreme." They're all imperfect. Vimukta-māninaḥ. They have been described as rascals. They are strongly thinking that they are liberated. They're rascals. Ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). They are talking like nonsense because their intelligence is not..., it is purified. He's therefore wrongly thinking that "I am the Supreme Lord. I am moving the sun." These rascals, they meditate, "I am moving the sun, I am moving the moon. I am this, I am that." This is their meditation. So 'ham. So they are rascals.

Room Conversation -- September 18, 1973, Bombay:

Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa says, yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here it is. Kṛṣṇa is giving opportunity of eating for the cats and dogs, the birds and beasts, and I am engaged in His service, He'll not give me food? Because we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore we are thinking, "If I do not work like these cats and dogs, I'll starve." That is my imperfect Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And perfect Kṛṣṇa consciousness means he knows that "I have engaged my life in Kṛṣṇa's business. Kṛṣṇa is..., Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He's feeding millions and millions of living entities. And he'll keep me starving?" Is it possible? That means he, he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. He's thinking Kṛṣṇa is a fictitious thing. That is his position. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...then they would have been confident, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is feeding everyone. Why not me? What I have done? Because I am engaged in His service, therefore I shall starve?" And the devotee has no such question also, whether he'll starve or eat. It doesn't matter if he starves. It doesn't matter. He thinks, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has put me in this position, to starve." Just like in hospital. A patient is ordered by the physician: "You should not eat anything." So he knows, "It is good for me." Similarly, a devotee, when he's starving, he knows, "Kṛṣṇa has put me in this starving condition. It is good for me." He never complains.

Room Conversation -- September 19, 1973, Bombay:

Acyutānanda: Yes, they say that animals have no soul.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Such rascals, they are leaders. How much imperfect that institution is. But if you say, then they will be angry.

Acyutānanda: Yes, one girl, she is Hindu, but she is studying in a convent. And they were catching butterflies in the garden. So the head sister said, "No, don't harm them because they are God's creatures." So she said, "Well, why do you eat meat?" So the sister left, but she failed her. She failed her in her classes. She gave her a failing grade, because she spoke back to her.

Kīrtanānanda: It means they have no philosophy.

Prabhupāda: No philosophy. No authority, no philosophy.

Room Conversation with Indian Guest -- October 4, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: But Bhagavad-gītā says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Bhagavad-gītā says that if you understand the Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy, janma karma me... First of all, you always remember that whatever we are talking, we are talking on the Bhagavad-gītā, on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa, then tyaktvā deham, giving up this body, you'll not have to accept another material body. This is the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. But so long you'll accept this body, material body, you'll remain imperfect. There cannot be any perfection. It may be gradation. There are eight million, four hundred forms of life. There is Brahmā, and there is ant also. Both of them are living entities. But the status quo of the ant, and the status quo of Brahmā is not the same, higher consciousness or mental... So they're all in the material world. None of them are perfect. Between Brahmā and ant, there are millions of other living entities, eight million. Not only one million. Millions. 8,400,000 forms of life. They're all imperfect because they have accepted this material body, either Brahmā or ant, but your perfection will come when you do not accept this material body. That is the, I mean to, the destination of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti: (BG 4.9) "After quitting this body, he does not accept any more this material body." This, that means he, he becomes perfect. That is stated in another place.

Room Conversation with Indian Guest -- October 4, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So as soon as you have to take birth, you have to die. Just like Aurobindo took birth; he died. Everyone. Everyone, even Brahmā. It may be a long duration or a small duration. That doesn't matter. Everyone. That is the perfectional knowledge, how to solve this birth and death problem. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). As soon as we are under these clutches of birth and death, old age and disease, we are imperfect. We are imperfect. Whatever I may be, you may be, but if I am subjected to birth, death, old age and disease, then I am imperfect. Therefore the perfectional, perfection of life is when you haven't got to take birth or die or become diseased and old. That is perfection.

Guest (1): That world must be somewhere in existence.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. That is, that is indicated...

Guest (1): But that...

Prabhupāda: Yad gatvā na nivartante tad... (BG 15.6).

Morning Walk -- December 4, 1973, Los Angeles:

Karandhara: They'd say there is no perfect source.

Prabhupāda: Because you are not... You're cheater, you're cheater, you are cheated, therefore that is your version.

Karandhara: We are imperfect. How do we know what a perfect source is?

Prabhupāda: No, I do not know. Therefore it is said, tad-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet. You must know from the person who knows.

Karandhara: He's also imperfect.

Prabhupāda: Ah? Well his perfection is proved there is satisfaction. The so-called scientists, philosophers, politicians, they could not bring peace in the world. That is their fools.

Karandhara: We have also not brought peace in the world.

Prabhupāda: No, our all followers are peaceful. We... I'm getting thousands of letters, how much you are benefited.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Why "Should have created"? He has created already perfect. Because you are perfect, therefore you have got the independence to misuse. You are not a dead stone. That is perfection. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). You can go anywhere, sarva-ga. You can go to the Vaikuṇṭha. Yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can go to the higher planets. You can go to the hell. When you go to the hell, it is your choice. God has given you all perfection. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation), everything is complete, perfect, and because you are perfect, you have got the independence. But misusing that independence, you are imperfect. Again, reviving your independence, you can become perfect, although you are imperfect now. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means raising the imperfect to the perfect platform. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other fools, they say, "We are perfect now." In a fallen condition also, they're thinking perfect. That is māyā. Āsurīṁ rākṣasīṁ caiva mohinīṁ prakṛtiṁ śritāḥ. Kṛṣṇa has made you perfect. There is no doubt about it. Just like some of our students. All of a sudden, they deviate, go away. So what is that? Our movement is imperfect, or he's imperfect?

Hṛdayānanda: He's imperfect.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: He's imperfect. Our movement is perfect. But he becomes imperfect by his misuse of independence. He thinks that "This is nice," and goes to hell. What can be done? That independence is there. That is perfectness.

Hṛdayānanda: So in other words, these, uh, the people that argue like that, they, they actually are lazy. They don't want to surrender to God. Then they blame God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they have become imperfect, therefore they are blaming God. "God is good;" they forget this. That is their imperfectness. One side, they say, "God is good." Still, they're blaming God. What is this nonsense? If He's God, God is good, how can you blame Him? God is good; in all circumstances, He's good. That is the meaning of good. Good does not mean that one time you are good and next time you are bad.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: And what you manufacture, is that God?

Prajāpati: They see...

Prabhupāda: What do you manufacture? You are imperfect. So whatever you manufacture, that is imperfect. How it can be God?

Prajāpati: Well, God is simply the way we view each other, relationship with each other, as the...

Prabhupāda: Well, that is your manufacture. Why do you say like that? Each other's relationship? The relationship already there. What is to make new there? The already... God is great, and we are small. The relationship is already there. So how you can make another relationship? God is great. Is it not? God is great. Is it not?

Prajāpati: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And then what you are? You are small.

Prajāpati: Yes.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: They are called kutarkī. Kutarkī. "Bad logicians. Bad logicians." Kutarkī.

Prajāpati: So much of it is based on politics, also, Prabhupāda. They...

Prabhupāda: Yes, They, they, they're everything, motivated. So therefore they're imperfect. I have got... Just like this United Nations. They have gone there for becoming united, but they remain disunited forever. Just see. All the best men go there for becoming united, but forever they will remain disunited. Just see the practical. Because they're all imperfect, rascals, motivated. How they can be united? They cannot be united. Simply spoiling their time and public money. That's all. Simply spoiling. But public have no eyes to see them. They're also rascal. Therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say that the whole society's now combination of cheaters and cheated. That's all. The cheated want cheaters, and cheaters take the opportunity of the cheated. And that is the combination of the present day society. Somebody, they want to be cheated. And there are some cheaters. So the whole society is combination of cheater and cheated.

Morning Walk -- December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. That is their foolishness. Nobody has seen George Washington.

Karandhara: No. believing in George Washington is not the same thing.

Prabhupāda: Why not same thing?

Karandhara: George Washington is still a mundane figure, imperfect.

Prabhupāda: Well, mundane figure, because you have got picture of George Washington, that's... We have got picture of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. You think George Washington fact because you see the picture of, that's all. So we see daily the picture, the photo, the statue.

Karandhara: Well, they may accept Kṛṣṇa as a person, but not as God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is person. Kṛṣṇa is person. God is person. That we accept. God is person. God is not person.

Bali Mardana: The demons at Kṛṣṇa's time could not even accept Him as God, what to speak of the demons now.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, many years ago you once gave the example that when the master craftsman is working and he has got an apprentice, when the apprentice works, it is also considered the same quality because he is under the direction of the master.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you are under direction of a perfect teacher, then your conclusion is perfect. The difficulty is that we are following imperfect teachers. Blind men. And what is the benefit of following a blind man? If the man is himself a blind man and if he follows another blind man, what benefit he will get? Both of them will fall into the ditch. That is going on. Just like this rascal Guruji Maharaja. He is a rascal and he is preparing so many rascals. And there are so many others. They are doing the same mischief, and there is no control by the government. The government is rascal. Government does not know who is real, who is imitation. Otherwise they should have checked immediately. But they do not check. They do not know.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Umāpati: Actually, the people feel helpless. They feel there is nothing they can do anyway, about anything. That's why they are engaging so much in intoxication. They feel hopeless under this government.

Prabhupāda: That is the defect, that the government itself is imperfect. How they can check?

Umāpati: Well, they're so foolish. There was an article in the paper the other day about this shot going to Jupiter and the scientists were described, the scientists that everybody is supposed to depend upon, they were described as biting their fingernails in the hopes that everything would come out all right.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Yaśomatīnandana: They said that they were simply taking chances that it might come out all right. They were not sure themselves.

Prabhupāda: That everyone is taking chance. A poor man is taking chance to become rich man. So what is the difference between the poor man taking chance and the scientist?

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Because they are under this impression the doctors are scientifically advanced. But the doctors' science is also imperfect. Because they do not know what is the soul. They do not believe in soul.

Karandhara: They trust the doctors the first, and they trust television the second.

Prabhupāda: Television.

Karandhara: Whatever they see on television, they accept.

Prabhupāda: Why they give so much authority to television?

Karandhara: Well, everyone watches it. So they just become indoctrinated.

Prajāpati: That is their altar in their home. It is in a permanent place in the center of their house, and they put flowers on top and they worship like that.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we don't experience, we may not know that we are suffering.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have got little freedom. Therefore this freedom is given, "All right..." So by freedom, sometimes we are becoming Lord Brahmā and sometimes the germ in the stool. This is going on. Otherwise, why there are so many different types of living entities? That freedom is acting under three modes: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, and tamo-guṇa. And when they are multiplied, three into three equals nine, nine into eighty-one; therefore 8,400,000 species. They experience everything. That is evolution, coming down, again going up, coming down again. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). So when they become exasperated, "No more." They want to become merging into the Supreme. When they are fatigued. After being karmī, then jñānī: "This is not good. What is actually our aim of life, let us search out." But because they make research in their teeny brain, they come to the conclusion, voidism and impersonalism, that "Make it zero, this botheration." That is also imperfect. So when they come to Bhagavān and engage himself in the service, then it is perfect, original.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Well, foolish men cannot accept any logic. Their logic is stick. "If you don't accept, I shall kick on your face. Accept it." That is the... That is wanted.

Karandhara: Like the example when Hitler killed the Jews. They will say, "Well, what should we do, just let Hitler go on killing the Jews because the Jews were sinful? Or should we try and stop Hitler?"

Prabhupāda: Well, Hitler was imperfect and everything was imperfect. That you cannot compare Hitler's action with God's action. God is all-perfect. That is first proposition. God is all-perfect.

Karandhara: That may be accepted in retrospection, but when it is happening, they don't accept that.

Prabhupāda: No, that is their ignorance, foolishness. Therefore a devotee will not say like that. A devotee will say, tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇaḥ: (SB 10.14.8) "My dear Lord, I am suffering. It is due to my past mischievous activities, but you are rescuing me by giving little punishment. I would have been punished more, but you have given little punishment. Thank you very much." This is devotion.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles:

Viśvareta: Scientists, they have their mental process, but what is our process to understand this knowledge?

Prabhupāda: Ascending. Ah, descending, not ascending. We have to take knowledge from superior. We should not try ourself to know. That will be imperfect. Avaroha-patha. Just like we're receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. We are not researching. Those who are researching, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. They understand Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being, maybe little learned. That's all. The Dr. Frog's calculation of Atlantic Ocean. That's all. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). (break) ...automatically. You see? But he does not know that behind this automation there is brain. He'll see, "Oh, how nice." That's all. Similarly, child-like scientist, they will say, "Everything is going on automatically." (break) ...but there is brain behind that.

Morning Walk -- December 17, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Therefore everything is limited. Under condition you can see. So what is your seeing? Imperfect seeing. If the sun rises, then you can see. That also not correctly. So what is the value of your seeing. You say, "We want to see God." And what is the value of your seeing?

Karandhara: Well, they think they can make machines.

Prabhupāda: That is also imperfect.

Karandhara: They have one machine they have they could see right now... Infrared telescopes.

Prabhupāda: No, that machine is imperfect. That is also imperfect. That machine is made by imperfect senses; so it is imperfect.

Karandhara: Imperfect, but they think it is becoming more perfect.

Prabhupāda: That is imperfect. They are becoming more perfect means they are imperfect. Becoming more perfect means their always position is imperfect. That very word means that, that you are perpetually imperfect.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That means you have no... You cannot see so many things. Does it mean that it does not exist? What is the value of your eyes? That I already explained. You cannot see. Now it is a misty. You cannot see anything. Does it mean your eyes are perfect. How you can see? Your eyes are not perfect. What you cannot see, you have to hear. Suppose in a distant place I cannot see. "What is that light?" I say. But if somebody knows, "Oh, that light is from..., there is a skyscraper building like this, and the light is coming." So I know what I cannot see, I can hear. Therefore what you do not see, next life, you have to hear from authority. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) "As you have changed so many times in this life, this body, similarly, after death, you will change your body." That is authority. You have to hear. Anything you do not, cannot perceive, you cannot experiment with your senses, you have to hear from another person who knows. That is the process. Why you think your eyes are so perfect that you can see anything? Why you are thinking like rascal? Your eyes are imperfect, and why you are thinking that eyes are perfect? That is rascaldom. I cannot see. You cannot see so many things. Is that a right proposition? I cannot see. What you are? What is your position of eyes? If there is darkness, you cannot see. So does it mean that your seeing is the only evidence? What do you think? Suppose if you are a blind man, what can you see?

Morning Walk -- December 30, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prajāpati: We have all the theology then. This is theology.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You present Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in true perspective. Then it will be perfection of your education. The so-called theologicians, they cannot understand God. It is not possible. That is not the way, that "I put my theory." He does not understand his value first, that "What is the value of my theory? If I am imperfect, so what is the value of my theory?" He does not understand the first principle, and he puts theory. Another rascal, he is putting theory. So what is the value of these theories?

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Actually they are simply selling their theories. Whoever will buy it, they are selling it to.

Morning Walk -- December 31, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Ah. So you simply show the card, you get the goods. So to exchange, it has become very cheap. So cheaply you can purchase. Therefore cheaply you can purchase sinful things also. The people are becoming sinful. The modern economy is, "Engage people in hard working to produce, and by artificial cheating, secure the goods, commodities." This is modern economy. So a worker is getting three thousand dollar per month, but he is getting paper. But he is thinking that "I am getting money." He is giving his labor, and things are being produced. This is the policy. "Cheat him. Without giving money, give him paper, and get his labor, and produce goods." This is modern economy. Is it not? A laborer, a worker, is given high salary, high wages. So what he is getting? It is paper. And he is very enthusiastic to give his labor. So production is more. And when you go to purchase the products, then you have to pay again. Whatever you have earned, you have to pay everything, pay to the bank or pay to the man. Simply cheating process is going on. There is no solution. People are cheaters. They have been taught how to cheat. Everyone has got a cheating propensity. That is conditioned life. Four defects: to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat and imperfectness of the senses. So cheating propensity everyone has got. So that cheating propensity is being encouraged more and more. Instead of minimizing it or stop it, it is being encouraged.