Prabhupāda: The animals, they sleep; man also sleeps. Animal, they eat; man also eats. The animal, they are also afraid of some enemy; man is also afraid of some enemy. The animals, they mate with the opposite sex, and men also do that. But what is the special significance of man? He can understand about God, but the animal cannot. Therefore if a man does not take to this understanding, he is no better than animal. A man who has no God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is no better than animal because he has no other business than the four principles of bodily demands. So that is also prevalent in animal kingdom. Therefore this is a privilege for human being, to understand about God, and as such, in every human society there is some sort of religious principle. This religious principle means to understand God. Either you take it, Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism, every religion is trying to understand God according to their capacity. So without this understanding, means Kṛṣṇa consciousness, human life is as good as animal life.
If a man... (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Initiation means formally acceptance of the line of activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Before that, before initiation, we invite everyone to come and sit down with us, chant, dance, take prasādam, hear philosophy. And if he understands, "Oh, this is very nice," then he offers himself to be initiated. Then we accept. Then we impose this restriction that "If you want to be initiated..." We get hundreds of letters by everyone who has attended our classes. Daily we are getting some married couples or boys and girls, but most of them are younger. My students are within thirties. The oldest student I have got at the present moment, he is twenty-eight years. No, Kirtanananda is about thirty years old. That's all. So, of course, I do not get any older people. That is nice, hopeful, because younger section, if they take it very seriously, then I have hopes that they will preach in future, even in my absence. And old people, if a man becomes too much accustomed to a certain limited habits, in old age it is very difficult to give it up unless one is extraordinarily intelligent.
Prabhupāda: That means I am going to surpass the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has sent this prasādam. Oh, this is all vegetables. Why not take some animal food and liquor?" Kṛṣṇa does not send you liquor. You have manufactured. Kṛṣṇa has sent you this fruit, He has sent you the grains, Kṛṣṇa has sent you the milk. You should be satisfied. Why should you manufacture liquor? Why should you manufacture slaughterhouse? We don't eat meat. Are we dying ninety percent of Indian population, they don't eat meat. They're simply vegetarian. Yes. And you can see how they are healthy. They cannot get sufficient food, that is different thing. That is maladministration. Kṛṣṇa has given sufficient food for all the people of the world. Somewhere the foodstuff is being thrown in the sea, and somewhere people are starving. This is want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If a man becomes, if the president becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious president, then he'll think "This foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's. It is not our result. So Kṛṣṇa claims all living entities as His sons. So we are sons of God, and the Indians or other poverty-stricken countries, they are also sons of God. So if we have got enough, why not send there?" Why you are putting the foodstuff, which no human being can produce, you are throwing it in the water. This is lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness education is greatly needed for human society. Do you follow, Guru dāsa?
You are dreaming that you are thrown into the ocean. So sleeping. So simply for nice arrangement for sleeping, is that civilization? (break) Then life is successful. At least, if one understands that "This is my business. My business is not to work hard and end it by sense gratification. This is not my business." That is saṁsiddhi. That is success. If, at least, one understands this aim of life, even little understands, he gets next human body. That is guaranteed. At least, he is not going to get any cats' and dogs' body. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate (BG 6.41). When Arjuna inquired that if a man cannot execute this yoga system, Bhakti-yoga system, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if it is half finished or one-fourth finished, or 10% finished, not complete finished, then what is the result? He is good for nothing? No. Kṛṣṇa says, "No." Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Even a little understood, it can save him from the greatest danger. And śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate. If one is not successful in this life, then he is given another chance next life. Where?
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. God has no name, but by His quality we give His name.
Bob: May He be called...?
Prabhupāda: Just like if a man is very beautiful, we call "beautiful." If a man is very intelligent, we call him "wise." So name is given according to the quality. Because God is all-attractive, therefore the only name Kṛṣṇa can be applied to Him. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive.
Bob: What about a name meaning "all-powerful"?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Attractive means... Unless you are powerful, how you can be attractive? (laughter)
Acyutānanda: It includes everything.
Prabhupāda: No, he has got full individuality, but he sacrifices individuality for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." So he voluntarily surrenders. Not that he has lost his individuality. He keeps his individuality fully. But because Kṛṣṇa desires that he should surrender, he never minds. He's individual. Just like Arjuna, in the beginning he was declining to fight on account of his individuality. But when he accepted Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master, he became śiṣya. Then whatever He ordered, "Yes." That doesn't mean he lost his individuality. He voluntarily accepted, "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, I shall do it." Just as all my disciples, they have not lost their individuality, but they have surrendered their individuality. That is required. Just like if a man does not use sex, does that mean he has become impotent? If he likes he can have, thousand times sex life, but he has voluntarily avoided it. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 9.59). Sometimes we fast, that does mean we are diseased. We voluntarily fast. It does not mean that I am not hungry, I cannot eat. But we voluntarily fast.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is a woman-hunter. That is the highest pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, rāsa-līlā. But here if a man becomes woman-hunter, he will be most abominable person. That is the mistake of the people: they consider Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). They are rascals, fools, mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam. This sense has to be learned-Kṛṣṇa, how He is Absolute in all circumstance. Kṛṣṇa is teaching, "Just go and tell little lie to Droṇācārya." People will be surprised, how God is teaching somebody that "You go and tell this lie"? So they become bewildered. So one has to understand actually what is Kṛṣṇa's position in all circumstances. That requires intelligence. (aside:) What is this?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa also will do the same thing. But His energies are so fine and expert, He desires, "Let there be a skyscraper," immediately there is. But the process is there. Don't think it has come automatically. The same thing. If you want to speak to a friend a thousand miles away, you have to go there and find him, or he has to come. The process is there. By electricity, immediately he comes. Is it not be possible? Process is there that he has to come or you have to go. But by electricity, it is shortened. Similarly, the working capacity is going there, but it is so shortened and perfect, you see, "Oh, it has come automatically by nature." (indistinct) The process is so nice and short. That is real explanation. Process is there. You cannot say that... It appears like miracle because your brain cannot accommodate how quickly all these things come. You have got poor brain, you cannot accommodate. You are thinking, "If I have to..., I have to paint this, simply painting I have to take so much time."
Just like if a man asks you one thousand dollar, he is thinking, "He has to collect and pay me." But if you write a note, give it to Nanda-kumāra, and he keeps it as check, and Nanda-kumāra pays immediately one thousand dollars.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore, if a man wants to become animal, he becomes worse than animal. A tiger, a tiger eats meat and he has got equipments in his body, what is called, nails, teeth, immediately pounce upon any animal and kills and eats. But a man cannot do that, but his teeth is different, he has no nails; therefore he has to kill animal in different way, by slaughterhouse. So he is worse than animal. You kill one animal for your eating purpose, that is one thing, but if you keep slaughterhouse for business, then you are more (indistinct). Therefore for a human being to try to become animal is worse than the animals, because... Just like you are now grown up. If you imitate that "I want to become child, so I enter anyone's house," the law will not allow you. And if you say that "My philosophy is to become a child; therefore I enter this man's house," the law will say, "All right, first of all you'll be punished." (laughter) You cannot say that. Because you are grown up you cannot act as a child. Similarly, because you are human being, if you act as an animal you'll be responsible for your acts. And you'll be punished if you do something wrong. You cannot say, "No, I have made my philosophy to become a child." That may be your personal philosophy, but law will not allow you. Ignorance is no excuse. (long pause) It has become a philosophy now to become like animals.
Prabhupāda: Well, it is still man's duty to become the husband and woman's duty to become the wife; so these propensities are there. But all this can be adjusted. I have many students and am getting them married, and they are living peacefully and advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not that everyone is brahmacārī. We have many gṛhasthas and children. In this way the propensities of the women and those of the man are adjusted. A man wants a woman, and a woman wants a man, so we say, "All right, take it. Live peacefully, but don't change partners." We don't allow divorce; once they're married there is no separation. Nor do we allow boys and girls to live together as friends. If a man wants a woman and a woman wants a man, they should become united by marriage, live peacefully and advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our proposal. In this way all facilities are there in this movement. Our program is to make people become godly, and everyone should help us. Every sane man should help this movement for the good of society.
Prabhupāda: This is the right... Another definition is God, God is all-attractive. Now, if you try to understand what is this attractiveness, just like your American country is very opulent, very attractive. If a man is very rich in the society, he is attractive. Then if a man is very strong, then he is attractive. If a man is very famous, he is attractive. If a man-man or woman—if a man is very beautiful, he is attractive. If a man is in the renounced order, he is attractive. If a man is very wise, he is attractive. These six features are attractive features. Now, these attractive features, every one of us have to some extent. Just like you are ambassador, representative of USA, so you are attractive. So this attractiveness you have got. Sometimes I have also got. Somebody comes to me, "Let me see this Swami speak," you see. So this attractiveness everyone possesses. But God means who has got all the attractiveness in full. That is God. You may be very rich, but you cannot say that "I am the richest person in the world." That is not possible. But God can say "I am the richest person in the whole creation." Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29).
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. But there is none complete. Except Kṛṣṇa. Nobody's complete. Our pro, philosophy is that we have to select if we... That we must have to. Otherwise, there is no life. Just like you scientists, you quote so many leaders, scientific leaders. Without this, there is no life. So... Just like in the Bengali there is a proverb that if I to, if I have to steal and become a thief, why not plunder the government treasury? Why pickpocketing? If I have to be punished as criminal, as thief, let me plunder the government treasury and then let me go to jail. So this is our policy. So if we have to submit to somebody, why not the best and perfect? That is our philosophy. You cannot avoid submission. That is not possible. Who is there who does not submit to anyone? Find out anyone. If you, if a man has nobody to submit, he brings a dog and submits to him. The dog is passing stool. He's standing. He's submitted to the dog. The dog is passing urine, he's submitting: "Yes sir, you pass your urine. I take care of you." This is the nature. If you do not submit to God, then ultimately you have to submit to the dog. This is nature. You cannot avoid it. You have to submit. There is no other way. Because your position is like that. Without submitting to one, you cannot live. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). This is the philosophy given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Prabhupāda: No. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Iso Invocation). He is so complete that one minus one equal to one. That is Absolute. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is expanding Himself by so many energies, but Kṛṣṇa is the same. There is no loss in His energy. Even in a human being or animal, he produces so many children. Just like hog—he produces at least one dozen children every year, but the hog is the same. If a hog can have so much power... And formerly one man used to produce hundreds of children. Wherefrom the potency comes? If a man is giving birth to hundreds of children, but still, he is the same man, wherefrom the potency comes? Why man? Even the fish, thousands of eggs they produce, and thousands of fishes are again produced. Wherefrom the potency comes?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: From the supreme controller.
Malcolm: If a man reaches his maturity of years and leaves a western school, and he has the words which say "Know thyself," may he reject his family ties?
Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of rejecting or accepting to understand the goal of life. The goal of life is meant for everyone. Maybe a family man or without family. It doesn't matter. Just like eating. Eating is for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's a family man or not family man. It is his essential. Similarly, the goal of life is also essential to know for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's family man or not family man. It doesn't matter.
Malcolm: Is the medicine in the seeking?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Malcolm: Is the medicine in the seeking?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Some are seeking, but the medicine is there.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Śyāmasundara: And you concluded that if men came out of this age who had developed a spirit of renunciation, true renunciation from material pursuit, that this would enable the world to rectify its present precarious position.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
Śyāmasundara: So... Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Do you see any signs of change in the western world or not?
Prabhupāda: Well, change can take place any moment, provided they will take this movement little seriously. Change for good.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Change for good. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And your article showed that you are also for change for good.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So our movement and your honor, we can cooperate for the good of the general people.
Prabhupāda: No. We become separated from the physical body, but we remain in the astral body, or subtle body, mind, intelligence... mind, intelligence and ego. That mind, material mind, material intelligence, you give up when you actually remain in your spiritual body. So this is also a great science. But unfortunately, there is no discussion on this point in any university of the world. But this is a science. So actual human civilization means they should study, they should inquire about this science and be well conversant. And that is the human... Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra it is said that human beings should be interested to this science first. Because animals cannot inquire about this science. The animals, they are simply interested how to eat. So similarly, if a man also simply interested in economic development which means how to eat, how to sleep... That is also there in the animal kingdom. They are trying in their own way. But they have no problem.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if the commandment is "Thou shalt not kill," if somebody kills, so that is good life?
Jesuit Priest: No, no, no. Father, you're being a bit unfair. It isn't... Interpretation, "Thou shalt not kill," thou shalt not unjustly take away life. If a man walks in this afternoon through those bushes with a revolver, I have every right... I'm not saying I'm going to do it, but I have every right to defend myself against that unjust aggressor. And if I kill him...
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can, you can protect yourself...
Jesuit Priest: ...that is justified.
Mother: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...from the aggressor, but when you kill innocent animal, what is the reason?
Prabhupāda: Eight kinds of criminals. In killing animals, there are eight kinds of criminals. That he has explained. One who is killing, one who is ordering, one who is purchasing, one who is eating, one who is cooking, in this way... Just like if a man is killed. If a man is killed and there are so many persons implicated, it does not mean that only one who has killed, he becomes criminal. All others who are implicated in that killing business, they are criminals. This is pollution.
Revatīnandana: This, this...
Schumacher: Let me make myself clear. I happen to be a vegetarian.
Revatīnandana: That's all right. We understand that. We're talking about the matter, the issue.
Prabhupāda: Yes, when you learn to give God. Generally...
Guest (1): Therefore, if a man feels empty, what he can offer?
Prabhupāda: No, no, empty... God says that you can give Him patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). You can give Him little flower, little fruit, little leaf, little water. He is satisfied. Not that you have to give millions of dollars. But if you have got millions of dollars, and if you think, "God will be satisfied with little fruit," that is cheating. God knows, "He is a cheater. He has got millions of dollars and offering me little leaf, little water." He is intelligent enough. He knows that he's a cheater. People do that. Bhakti in the mind God, and for others, garama garama puri. And for Kṛṣṇa, within the mind, meditate. (laughter) God knows that "He is a cheater number one. He is preparing puri for himself, and for Me he is meditating." What is this nonsense? How meditation will help?
Prabhupāda: No, we have got experience. If there is a good man, he'll do, he'll act very nice. That we have got experience. Just like if a man is honest, you can trust him. This is our experience. So similarly, if the leaders be good according to this standard, then the whole human society will be happy. This is our propaganda. We are not after the post, but we have to disclose this rascaldom, that "All these rascals, animals, fools, they are taking the post of leader, and you are suffering repeatedly, but you have no sense that 'How we can be happy with this Nixon and company's leadership?' " So therefore we want to disclose the fact, that's all. We have no ambition. Just like we are brāhmaṇas. We have nothing to do, but according to Vedic civilization, the brāhmaṇas guides the kṣatriyas how to rule. So our position is to reform the politicians. We are not going to compete with them, we have no business, neither we have time. But because people are suffering—we want everyone to be happy-therefore we want to reform these rascals. That is our goal.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: If a man has seen a place, that man will show you that place. That is how it is.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (3): But to reach that place there are several ways.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, tattva-darśinaḥ. You have to approach a person who has seen the truth. You don't manufacture your own truth. That will be misleading. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This is Vedic instruction. In order to understand scientifically, you must approach a guru.
Guest (3): And with a clean slate.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prabhupāda: ...even the richest man, their wife has no bangles. You see? And they are jewelries. Jewelries. Cow, butter, throwing butter like anything, and silk sari and enough food grains. What is more want for material advancement? That is real material ad... You have got everything, material needs. (break) If a man can feed his wife and children, then he is successful. There is no question of charity. There is no question of charity. But here it is said they were also giving in charity. (break) ...stopped to become real brāhmaṇa and give instruction to the society, and they also stopped giving charity to the brāhmaṇas. So therefore the society is so fallen. There is no instruction from the brāhmaṇas and no charity from the kṣatriya and vaiśya. (break) ...proṣita bhārtṛkā. By the dress a woman is recognized. When she does not dress very nicely, it is to be understood that her husband is out of home. When there is the vermillion, that means she is married. When the, what is called, division? Siti. Siti is in this side, then she is prostitute. The dress, when the woman dresses with white dress, they are widow, no husband. Yes, in this way by dress...
Prabhupāda: So everything, solution is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, and we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world, and people are accepting. Now we have started in America a political party, "In God We Trust." So they are doing very successfully. People are accepting. They are criticizing the so-called leaders. After Nixon, people are disgusted with the so-called leaders. So we are teaching them what kind of leaders should be selected. The king, the public leader, the brāhmaṇa, and... At least these three men, they should be free from the four kinds of sinful activities. If they are personally sinful, how they can lead other people? That is not possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If a man is himself blind man, how he can lead other blind men? That is not... It is dangerous for both of them. So the leaders, the politicians, the king, the brāhmaṇa, they should be very much pure, without any sinful tinge of life. And the pillars of sinful life is illicit sex life and meat-eating and intoxication and gambling. Now, unfortunately, the leaders are teaching people how to enjoy illicit sex life, meat-eating and intoxication. Then how the society can be happy? It is not possible. If you become criminal or if you infect some disease, you must suffer. Similarly, in the material world there are three guṇas: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, children they learn it from their parents. Otherwise they do not know. (break) ...by memory, by mercifulness... People are not so merciful now. Suppose in your presence somebody is being killed. You avoid to stand there. No more merciful. What to speak of the animals? If a man is killed, nobody will take care. I have heard it in America that if somebody is killed or attacked, nobody will go to help. Is it not?
Mahāṁsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So the mercifulness has gone. And what to speak of religiosity? That is completely gone. These things will reduce: mercifulness, religiosity, memory, bodily strength, and so many, eight, eight. They are mentioned in the Bhāgavata. Religious principles.
Pañcadraviḍa: There is big difference between animal killing and...
Prabhupāda: Why big difference?
Pañcadraviḍa: If a man goes into the road he runs over a dog, there will not be so much punishment. But if a man goes into the road, he runs over...
Prabhupāda: That you have made, your laws. You have made that, if you kill a man and if you kill an animal, that is not equal. That is your... But that does not mean when it is said, "Thou shalt not kill"... This is no argument.
Pañcadraviḍa: That law was made for some reason. Because human being and animal are not on equal levels. Human being has soul, but animal does not.
Prabhupāda: Then you interpret in your own way. That is actually... (end)
Prabhupāda: No. Man is supposed to be elevated position, how to love God. Animals cannot make (break) ...any distinction between a human being and animal. That is really the symptom of God, that sarva-yoniṣu... Just like if I am obedient son of my father, how can I neglect one son who is very stupid? Rather, if I say to my father, "Father, this son is stupid. He does not bring any service. So please allow me to cut his head," the father will never agree. The father, either a stupid son or very intelligent son, he is kind to everyone, because they are sons. So similarly, if a man is real lover of God, he cannot cut throat of the animals. I think, therefore, Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." That is not... If actually one is lover of God, how he can give trouble, pains, to others? That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is civilization. Poor girls, they are victims. These rascals are enjoying without any responsibility of marriage. And sex impulse is very strong between thirteen years up to thirty years. So people take advantage of it, and the poor girls become victim. So many anomalies. This is a doggish, demonic civilization. This is not civilization at all. They are not interested. They do not know what is the aim of life. First mistake is that "I am this body." This is doggish. Just like the dog is barking. He is thinking, "I am a big dog here. Don't come." Similarly, if a man thinks, "I am a big American, I am great Englishman," then what is the difference? The dog is also thinking like that. And Vedic civilization says, "No, you are neither dog nor human being." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am spirit soul." This is Vedic civilization. One is being trained up to understand this philosophy, that "I do not belong to this, any material condition. I am Brahman part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Where is that conception?
Prabhupāda: You haven't got to say. But because he hasn't got brain, because he is not guided by the brain, he will misspend and create disturbance in the society.
C. Hennis: Well, we try to look after that in an indirect way. We don't, as I said, we don't tell people how to spend their money. We don't tell them what to do in their free time. We do try to make sure that they have proper facilities for leisure, that they have proper opportunities, sportsgrounds, swimming pools and so forth, although that's not our primary concern. But what we do try to do, and this will interest you very much, we have a very big program concerned with worker's education. We endeavor to provide programs of education to the worker in teaching him how to understand the problems of modern industry, to understand the problems of management, the people on the other side of the table, of the bargaining table; to understand how to read a balance sheet, for example, in a company, or understand what are the problems that face the management as distinct from the workers in a firm; to understand of the basic rudiments of economics and finance and that kind of thing. This is a very highly developed program which is addressed to adult workers. Now, clearly if a man wants to drink, he wants to drink.
Prabhupāda: In Delhi? He said that a man who has learned the art to, what is called, barking like dog, and people will go to see, purchasing ticket, ten rupees, twenty rupees, how the man is barking like a dog. And there are so many dogs barking. They won't see. This is our advancement. If a man has artificially learned how to bark, they'll go to see by paying fees. And the natural barking, they don't care. So these rascals are like that. They're trying to manufacture life. And so many life is coming by nature's process, millions and millions, that is no credit. And he's trying, utopian, he'll create life by chemical combination, he's given all credit, Nobel Prize: "Oh, here is a man." This is rascaldom. So what credit you'll get. Suppose if you can manufacture a man or an animal in the laboratory, where is your credit? There are many millions and millions are coming automatically. We are trying to give credit to Kṛṣṇa who is making all this creation.
Guru-gaurāṅga: They say that if a dog bites a man, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that's nothing special, but if a man bites a dog, that's news.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Yes. Just like the men ate some human flesh. That became news.
Yogeśvara: That airplane crash.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is their business. (break) ...is when the dog barks, that is not science. When the man barks like a dog, that is science. Is that not? The man, how scientifically he has learned how to bark like a dog. This is their aim, how to imitate dog-barking. This is scientific.
Satsvarūpa: On a morning walk in Los Angeles, Svarūpa Dāmodara said they are now going to produce babies in a test tube, and you said "But that's already being done in the womb. That's a very nice test tube." He said, "But he'll get a Nobel Prize." So that's the example. Nature's already doing it nicely. (break)
Nitāi: In Los Angeles, you were saying about the system of monogamy, how in this way most of the women are left unmarried.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is prostitution. If a man... First of all, the problem is... That they do not know, that they should produce sufficient food grains. These, all these contraceptive methods, this and that, monogamy, they are trying for checking population. Is it not?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The basic principle is to check population. Now, if they follow the Vedic principles, automatically the population is checked. Just like brahmacārī. So if the, both the boys and girls remain brahmacārī, then where is the unwanted population? Where is the question of this contraceptive method?
Prabhupāda: No, you'll not compromise; at the same time, you'll not make enemies. That is tactics. If you make enemies, then what is your tactics? You must speak the truth; at the same time he'll not be displeased. That is tactics. If you can defeat him by your argument, then he'll not be displeased. After all, everyone is human being. If you can find out his defect, why he shall be enemy? Therefore, it is said, "You better make a reasonable man an enemy, but don't make a friend fool." You don't make friendship with a fool, but if a man is intelligent, better make him an enemy. Because, because he's intelligent, although he's an enemy, he'll not do any harm. Because intelligent. But a fool, he may pose himself as friend, and he can do anything which is very harmful.
Prabhupāda: They have prepared very nice, nice preparation and exhibited. People come and purchase. So animals, cows, as soon as they take some opportunity, they push their head and take something. Get away. Now, the animal, the cow is passing, and a human being is also passing. But the human being, although he's hungry, he likes to take some of the preparation, but he'll not do like that animal. He knows that "I have no money. So I shall have to restrain my tongue." That is human being. The animal pushes the head. So anyone who cannot carry the regulative principles is animal. The law is for human being. "Keep to the left, keep to the right" for... This is not for the dogs. Dogs can keep to the right, keep to the left, anywhere. But he's not criminal. Because he's animal. But if a man, instead of keeping to the right, he goes to the left, immediately, he's criminal. Therefore human society means to abide first-class law. That is human being. The laws must be made for advancement of spiritual life. That is human society. Because animal life, it doesn't require any law. How to eat, it doesn't require any law. Everyone knows. Man knows, animal knows. How to have sex life, it is not to be educated. Everyone knows. But they are philosophizing on sex life. Freud. What is this Freud?
Prabhupāda: His mind is being... His mental expression is Kṛṣṇa. He's always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma. We have got some propensity to create. Just like this beautiful place. We have got creative energy. Therefore it is advised that nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe. Make it for Kṛṣṇa. You'll find in India, they have also created big, big temples, four flight, but for Kṛṣṇa. Then the energy spent for creating this park, in relationship with Kṛṣṇa will be utilized as service to Kṛṣṇa. And if it simply meant for sense gratification, then you are under the laws of nature, contaminated. Just like if a man is very powerful, he's creating this park, but he is contaminated with some infection, he, will he not suffer?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: He must suffer.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He must know... He may understand or not understand. Somehow or other, he has become crazy. So if the craziness is cured, then he is normal man.
Bhagavān: Yogeśvara, let Pṛthu translate.
Pṛthu Putra: His point... He says if a man understands that he is crazy, then he is not crazy any more.
Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda says somehow or other, if he understands or not, if he gets cured of his insanity...
Prabhupāda: So the insanity is just like you are dressed and if you identify yourself with the dress, that is insanity. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says he agrees. That means to be identified with the appearance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Hmm. So this kind of leadership will not make any solution, if you do not know what is the real goal. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He doesn't agree if a man create or imagine a goal, he says, the real goal, the real things...
Prabhupāda: No, it is not imagination. That is another foolishness, to imagine a goal. If we imagine some goal, that is another rascaldom. We have to understand what is the goal of life from superior. Just like a child. He does not know what is the goal of life, but his parents know he must be educated. So goal has not to be imagined. Goal has to be understood from superior. So if the superior man is also blind, then he cannot lead other blind forward. If a blind man takes the position of superior, then he will lead these followers to the ditch only. That's all. (French)
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Mādhava: Does the scientist actually observe something external to his mind or does he only observe...
Prabhupāda: Speculation.
Mādhava: Only in his mind.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Just like you cannot see actually what is beyond the wall, and there is some sound. You can simply speculate, "This sound is due to this. This sound is due to this. This sound is due to this," but you have no clear knowledge. This is called speculation. But if a man behind the wall says, this sound is... (end)
Prabhupāda: No, unless you take the real instruction, how you can stop disaster? You must agree to take the real instruction. If you don't agree, then you suffer. That is your business. But the remedy is there. The instruction is there. Just like Bhagavad-gītā says, "Produce food grain." The remedy is there. But you will not produce food grain; you will produce motorcar. Then you must suffer.
Reporter: But do you foresee a time when many people will receive that remedy?
Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but the remedy is there. If you like, you can take it. If a man is suffering from some disease, the remedy is there, the physician is there, but if he does not take advantage, then that is his business. What can be done? This is very nice... Every Bhāgavata, every line is so important.
Prabhupāda: The students, they are going to school, college, and they are talking of sex. Where is tapasya? How it is possible? So therefore bhakti-yoga is the only way of spiritual improvement in this age—all age, especially in this age. No other method will help you-yoga, karma, jñāna, nothing. Bhakti-yoga is always strong, especially in this age, Kali-yuga. Therefore it is said, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva, especially. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva... (CC Adi 17.21). This is the simplest. But people do not know what is the ultimate goal of life. They are so much in ignorance. They do not know what is spiritual life, what is ultimate goal. Simply like cats and dogs. The dog jumps over with four legs, and if a man can jump over with four wheels, then that is advance. Just see. They think, "Now we are advanced. We have got four-wheel car to jump over. And the dog is jumping with legs. Therefore this is advanced." They do not know this is also the same dog's business. They do not know it. (break) ...again they have made this car, coming from miles away, but the business is fishing. Just see. Bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. "Advancement of civilization, we have got car, we are nicely dressed, we are human being, ev..." But what is your business? Fishing. Bambhārambhe... Ārambha, gorgeous arrangement—the business is the same. The skylark, what is called? Skylark? These birds?
Prabhupāda: Oh. Both of them are new.
Śrutakīrti: Yes.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad-gītā it says that if a man simply works for Kṛṣṇa, he can come to the perfect stage. Is that perfect stage... When he fixes his mind on Kṛṣṇa... But is that achieved via the regulative principles?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Devotee (1): If a man simply works for Kṛṣṇa for his whole life, yet he doesn't follow the regulative principles...
Prabhupāda: Then how he follows Kṛṣṇa?
Devotee (1): That's not possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śrutakīrti: You will advance to the other stages.
Prabhupāda: Just like if a man is working hard, but he will never become rich, then what is the use? Working hard means one must become rich. But if he does not become rich, simply working hard, then what is the use? Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. You must follow the regulative principles. Sato vṛtteḥ. This is your honesty, and sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), this can be done-association with devotees. Ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati: "This is the way of increasing devotional service." (end)
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jesuit: But a person is more than just matter. I'm more than matter.
Prabhupāda: No, the person, just like... that is... If a man is sitting on a Rolls Royce car, he's thinking, "Very important." And a man sitting on some ordinary car, he's thinking, "I am poor." But as man, both of them (are) equal. Falsely, because he is sitting in a particular type of car, he is thinking, "I am bigger."
Jesuit: Yes, I can see I agree with all that.
Prabhupāda: So the soul is the same. So there is no difference, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7), find out this verse. Soul is the part and parcel of the supreme soul, Supersoul, God.
Prabhupāda: No. I am brāhmaṇa yes. Yes. But we are not... We do not recognize brāhmaṇa by birth. Brāhmaṇa by these qualities. Anyone who has got... This is the shastric injunction, that if the qualities are found somewhere else—that means one who is not born in a brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the brāhmaṇa—then he should be accepted as a brāhmaṇa. That is shastric injunction. Yasya hi yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ varṇābhivyañjakam, yad anyatrāpi. Anyatra means elsewhere. Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). "He should be accepted as such." Similarly, if a man, born in brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the śūdras... Paricaryātmakaṁ kāryaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Paricarya means service. To accept... (break) So therefore, according to Bhagavad-gītā, nobody is brāhmaṇa. A brāhmaṇa should remain independent. He should live by his qualities. People will honor him. Just like we are training. We do not serve anyone, but we are maintaining big establishment.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (break) ...Paṇḍita says, vidvat tvaṁ ca nṛpatvaṁ ca naiva tulyam kadācana: "A rich man, or a king, and a learned man, learned vidvān, they should not be compared. There is no comparison." Why? Sva-deśe pūjyate rājā. "A rich man or a king may be worshiped in his kingdom," vidvān sarvatra pūjyate, "and if a man is learned, he will be worshiped everywhere." Therefore, he says, "Never compare with rich man with learned man."
Bahulāśva: Therefore it's very important that all the devotees study your books so they become learned.
Prabhupāda: That means they have created thieves and rogues. Therefore they are suspicious. Nowadays in the airport, everyone is searched. Then it is now taken for granted that all of them are cheats. So what is the value of this education if all of them are cheats? There is no discrimination, "Now, here is a educated professor, Dr. Ph.D., he cannot be searched." No, he will be also searched-because, "You may be Ph.D., but we know you are a cheat." (laughter) Is not the conclusion? Will he be excused if he says, "Oh, I am Ph.D." No, you must be searched. "You may be Ph.D., but you are a cheat." This is education. So what is the value of this education? And according to Vedic civilization, as soon as one is a brāhmaṇa, he is not within the jurisdiction of administration, immediately. The government has no right to check in his activities. Because he knows he is a brāhmaṇa. Four person, four or five, they are excused from the jurisdiction of law. The first is brāhmaṇa, the second is cow, the third is woman, and the fourth is old man, and fifth is the child. These five persons are not in the jurisdiction of law. No. Just like we have got practical. If a child comes and takes my spectacle away, he is not criminal. Everyone knows. But if a man takes my spectacle, then he is criminal. Similarly, a brāhmaṇa is never criminal. A cow is never criminal. These are the Vedic civilization. Woman, woman is also excused. No punishment for woman.
Prabhupāda: Well, what is scientific proof, that is equally applicable to Mrs. Gandhi or to any ordinary woman.
Reporter: Is she having problems because she is a woman, though? If a man were in her position...
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why you are trying to put me in the emergency law? (laughter)
Reporter (2): In the what?
Devotee: In the emergency rule.
Reporter (2): Did you say emergency room or emergency law?
Brahmānanda: Emergency rule that is going on in India.
Jayatīrtha: He will be arrested if he says like that.
Prabhupāda: I'm asking you, I'm asking you...
Sandy Nixon: Well, I think there's always been castes. It's just that we don't recognize the fact that they're there.
Prabhupāda: No, recognize means if a man is qualified medical man we accept him as medical man. And if a man is qualified engineer, we accept him as engineer. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā suggests—not suggest, it is there—there are four classes of men, the most intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men and ordinary worker. That is already there. Bhagavad-gītā says how they should be classified, that "He belongs to this class, he belongs to that class." That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, not that by birth, hereditarily, one becomes a caste. You don't try to misunderstand. The classification is already there: one class of men, very intelligent. Is he not there in the human society?
Prabhupāda: Dr. Atmaram, that "We have simply learned how to bark like dog, but we don't care so many dogs are already barking." He admitted that if a man learns how to bark, people will purchase ticket and see him, and so many thousands of dogs, dog, are barking—nobody cares. This is scientist. You learn how to bark, imitate the dog, and you become important man. You have create one third fruit by mixing peach and plum, and one who is creating millions and trillions of fruits that is lying on the floor—nobody cares for that—he has no credit. These rascals wants credit for this most insignificant...
Satsvarūpa: They say their barking is an improvement on the original dog.
Prabhupāda: To another dog appreciates like that. (laughter)
Rāmeśvara: (break) ...philosophy is that originally God's creation is not perfect. It is... Nature is very wild, and man can make it perfect.
Prabhupāda: You have not come to that perfection, so you are not important. (break) ...Muslim country there is a word, khodaka upar kimvar dhari. (?) Khoda (?) means God. These rascals want to go above God. (break)
Prabhupāda: Full attention. And attention means with good intelligence, (dog barking) not foolishly. (Hindi) That "You are not body. Why you are fighting?" Will they hear? (Hindi) That "My dear dog, you are not this body. Why you are fighting?" He will never understand. Similarly, if a man does not understand, he is no better than the dog.
Dr. Patel: śuni caiva śva-pākeṣu paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we like everyone. We do not reject anyone. Dog cannot understand the philosophy. Therefore we call him and give some prasādam. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: So if we take also prasādam, don't... (laughing)
Prabhupāda: Therefore prasāda distribution is one of our program.
Dr. Patel: For?
Prabhupāda: No līlā. It is compulsory.
Dr. Patel: Why compulsory?
Prabhupāda: Just like if a man is beaten with shoes, that is not his līlā. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: What it is?
Prabhupāda: It is force, that "You must be beaten with shoes." That is not līlā. Nobody says, "Let me play this līlā and you beat me with shoes." (laughter) No sane man will do that. When a man is punished, that is by force, superior force. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). This is force, prakṛti, nature's. You cannot say that "I don't care for the prakṛti." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: (break) ...by mental platform, on the mental plane.
Jagadīśa: When I was in the university I took a course...
Prabhupāda: (break) Yes. The same example. This was spoken by one scientist in Delhi, that if a man has learned how to imitate the dog barking, people will go to see him by purchasing ticket. But he won't hear the dog, real dog, barking. So we are like that. We are trying to imitate dog.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it here, Jayapatākā? Yes, here.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...fective, what you can see from the observatory?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why they use a telescope, to make their eyes perfect.
Prabhupāda: Everything is imperfect.
Hṛdayānanda: Telescope also imperfect.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of...
Acyutānanda: ...and the person misuses the money, does he benefit?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Acyutānanda: If a man says, "I am giving you this donation because it is a spiritual organization," but if the money is misused, does that man benefit?
Prabhupāda: If money is misused, then both of them become implicated. If it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, then both of them becomes under the laws of karma.
Acyutānanda: But that man is sincere.
Prabhupāda: Well, this word sincere, there is no meaning unless he is a devotee. Ei bala ei manda sab mano dharma: "These are all mental concoction." There is no meaning. "This man is good. This man is sincere. This man is bad. This man is..." They are all mental concoction. Only good is he who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Others all rascals.
Prabhupāda: She may be angry. She is woman and man. Actually this is physiological. If a man is too much addicted to sex life, he'll become impotent, and if he begets child, it will be a girl. With no potency to give birth to a male child.... That requires potency.
Haṁsadūta: When we were going around in London making life members, I noticed that in so many families, all the children are girls.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole world is full of girls, girl children. Why? There is no potency. Potency finished. Or impotent. And if you keep one boy brahmacārī, no sex life, and get him married, the first child must be a boy, must be, without any doubt.
Lokanātha: That means, then, woman is more potent than...
Prabhupāda: It takes immediately, provided a man is intelligent. Just like the same principle: If a man is intelligent, he can immediately understand that the machine is not important; the pilot is important.
Mike Barron: The same with the body...
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you take this body as everything, then analyze part by part. Just I was talking about breathing. People generally say, "The breathing is stopped; therefore the man is dead." And that can be replaced, breathing. Breathing? What is this breathing? It is simply air. Just like in tire tube, when the air is lost, you can immediately replace it and take it into work. Similarly, if breathing is lost, therefore the man is.... You can replace it. You are big, big scientist. You replace it. Just find out some machine which will "Hans! Phans!" just like bellows. That's not possible.
Prabhupāda: That is suffering.
Rāmeśvara: If a man can have an affair with many different women, he's considered fortunate. It is his success.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's on the front page of all the magazines.
Hari-śauri: "Bachelor daddy."
Prabhupāda: Therefore they want to become gopīs. That is the tendency, sahajiyā.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like transcendental hippie-life.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No responsibility.
Rāmeśvara: Yes, that would have been a big tragedy for all of us. That is premature. That's the example Prabhupāda is giving. If a man wants to educate his sons, but he dies before they can be educated, then, to him, that is a premature death. So therefore he does not want that. In fact he's afraid: "Please, I don't want to die before I see my sons educated." So that is a fear of death.
Prabhupāda: Therefore death is an obstacle. That is the point.
Rāmeśvara: An obstacle to the goals of his life.
Prabhupāda: One who has no responsibility, that is another thing. But a responsible man wants to finish the responsibility, and if death comes before that, that's an obstacle.
Richard: Um hm. Okay. Ah, how about smaller obstacles in life, though, than death? I mean this...
Prabhupāda: This is the major obstacles, and subordinate to these obstacles there are hundreds and millions of obstacles.
Prabhupāda: The physical life is struggle for existence.
Richard: Is a struggle for existence. Why is...? Why, if a man who is an alcoholic, if that's the best that he can make of life, why is that bad?
Prabhupāda: That is not.... He's wrongly, he's going in the wrong path.
Richard: Well, if that's the best that he can do.
Prabhupāda: He can think.
Richard: He can change?
Prabhupāda: Yes, he can change. Change is possible, but if he sticks, that is his selection.
Prabhupāda: It is not possible that, because, at the present moment the number of educated persons, there are many. Many Ph.D.'s, D.H.C.'s but nobody understands it. You cannot expect a fair number of persons understanding it. It requires little higher brain. But even some percent of the population understands this philosophy, then there will be peace and prosperity. Not that everyone. Just like in my body, not that every part of my body is brain. But if the brain is in order, then other parts of the body will act nicely. The leg is not brain, but if the brain is in order, the leg will move nicely. The difficulty is there is no brain. So without brain, without head, when the body moves it is ghost. So it is ghostly civilization. All ghosts. There is a kind of ghost, perhaps you know, that without head. If a man is chopped of his head, and if he has got attraction, then he becomes a ghost without head. So at the present moment, all these so-called educated civilized men are ghosts without head. You now this, there is some ghosts without head?
Prabhupāda: Āyur, duration of life. The maximum duration of life in Kali-yuga is hundred years, but who is living hundred years? It is being reduced, and it will be so reduced that if a man would live twenty years, he is an old man. It will come to that stage. Now it reducing, from hundred years to ninety years to eighty years.
Hari-śauri: The average is seventy-three years now.
Prabhupāda: Seventy, then sixty then fifty. In this way, if a man lives from twenty to thirty years he will be considered grand old man. These are the symptoms, āyur. Then?
Pradyumna: Balam.
Prabhupāda: That is the purport. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsu śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). One has to go to guru when one is inquisitive. Jijñāsu. Jijñāsu means we want to know so many things; that is our nature. Child also wants to know. He asks his parents, "What is this, father? What is this, mother?" That inquisitiveness is there in everyone. So when one wants to know about the Supreme, then he requires a guru, or spiritual master. It is not a fashion that "Everyone keeps a guru; let me also have a guru." Not like that. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). "In order to understand the transcendental science, one has to go to guru." Jijñāsu śreya uttamam. After artha,... Just like generally, naturally, one goes to temple, church... Four classes of men. One is needy: "O God, give us our daily bread." One thinks... Actually, that is the fact. God gives us bread. So traditionally we are trained up. So we go to God, "Give us our daily bread." Similarly, one who wants to know what is God. Just like in our society, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they see that these boys, young boys, they have given up everything, they are after Kṛṣṇa. What is this Kṛṣṇa? That is intelligent. Why they are after this Kṛṣṇa? Then he has to go to a person, guru. In this way, there are many circumstances. But the real purpose is to know the Supreme. One who is inquisitive or anxious to know about the Supreme, then there is necessity of guru. Otherwise, what is the use of it? One who is not inquisitive to understand the Supreme, he has no business for a guru. But everyone has necessity to understand the Supreme. That is human life. A dog cannot inquire what is God, because he is dog. But a man can do that. He has got that developed intelligence. So if a man does not inquire about the Supreme Truth, he is no better than a dog.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So how to use it? What they'll use?
Rāmeśvara: Sometimes if a man is in critical condition he will donate his bodily organs, so they will kill him just to take out his heart so that they can use it for transplanting.
Bali-mardana: When his brain stops, even though the heart is beating, they take it out.
Prabhupāda: So? (pause) That is the question put by Sanātana Gosvāmī. Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya. "I want to live, but what is that force that does not allow me to live?" This is the question, this is the question. They are trying to find out so many laws, so many, what is the purpose? They want to live, but there is a force that will not allow you to live. That is the human question. When this question arises, then he is human being; otherwise he's a dog. Dog never inquires.
Prabhupāda: They have been described as mūḍha. Mūḍha means asses. So this is the first understanding, that one should not identify with this body.
Interviewer: What understandings come after...?
Prabhupāda: Just like dog. Dog understands that he is body. If a man also understands like that—he is body—then he's no better than the dog.
Interviewer: What other understandings come after this one?
Bali-mardana: After you realize that you're not the body, then what comes next?
Prabhupāda: Ha! That is intelligent question. Then one has to find out that "I am engaged only in this bodily concept of life. Then what is my engagement?" That is the inquiry of Sanātana Gosvāmī, that "You have relieved me from this material engagement. Now let me know what is my duty." For that reason one has to go to the spiritual master, to know, understand that what is his duty now. "If I am not this body, then what is my duty? Because I am busy whole day and night for this body. I am eating, I am sleeping I am having sex, I am defending—these are all bodily necessities. If I am not body, then what is my duty?" That is intelligence.
Prabhupāda: One has to realize that he's not this body, he's spirit soul, and the spirit soul is within the body, and after annihilation of this body, the spirit soul is transferred to another body. So there are 8,400,000 different forms of life. And we have to transmigrate to any one of these forms. So today I am in American body or Indian body, very comfortably situated, but at the time of death my particular mentality will transfer me to a particular type of body. Exactly like if a man infects some contagious disease he has to develop that disease. It is very subtle material laws. So similarly, we are composed of gross body and subtle body. The gross body is made of this earth, water, air, fire, ether, like this. And the subtle body is made of mind, intelligence and ego. And the spirit soul is within that outward gross and subtle bodies.
Prabhupāda: Just like if you have got a car to drive on. So naturally you take care of the car also. But not that you identify yourself, "I am this car." That is nonsense. They are doing that. They are taking too much care of the car, thinking that the car is one. He forgets that he is different from the car, he has got different business. He cannot eat the petrol and be satisfied. He has got different eating. But these rascals, they are thinking that "Petrol is also my eating." And they are drinking petrol and dying, that's all. Petrol is meant for the car, and for you there are so many fruits, flowers, milk. But if a man thinks that "I am the car, I must drink this petrol," then he is doomed.
Mike Robinson: I see. There's two things if I could perhaps bring up. One is a quote that we had.... I was given this literature by some of your people before I came, in which one of the things you say is that "Religion without a rational basis is just sentiment." Can you explain that to us, and the converse of it, which...
Prabhupāda: Attachment maybe, that is not a very important thing. But if there is a process, how to become independent of this body, why should we not take it? That is intelligence. Just like a man suffering from illness, attachment or no attachment, he's now suffering from that illness, but he has put himself into hospitalization under some physician. So that process will cure him and he'll not suffer from this disease. That is the hope. Or that is the fact. Similarly, circumstantially, we may be dependent on this material body, but if there is a process how we can become independent of the body, why should we not take it? The same example, if a man is diseased, he's captured by the disease. Attachment or no attachment, it is difficult. But he must put himself under treatment so that he can be detached from it. That is intelligence. I am caught by the disease. So let me suffer without any treatment. That is not intelligence. I must take the process of treatment by which... That is explained there, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9).
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Now then, Arjuna was so advised that he should fight out. So in that case, I mean we all consider he was right to follow Kṛṣṇa advice? Then if a man is overtaken by disease and if he fights out that...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't say that, that he should not fight. It is my personal... Not that one should not take care of the body or one should not eat medicine, that is not. I like this, let me do without medicine. That is my personal... It is...
Dr. Patel: What is medicine? Any herb is a medicine, even food is a medicine.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, I don't decry medicine. That is not my business.
Dr. Patel: No, no, I don't say decry. But you don't want to take advantage of medicine.
Jayapatākā: To the governor?
Prabhupāda: Governor, Mr. Chandra Reddy. "Why, wherefrom they are getting money, where, why?" That is my very, very hard labor, that's all. Is it wrong if a man works hard and gets money in foreign country and bring in India?
Gargamuni: I think they cannot believe that a sādhu could have so much money from selling books.
Prabhupāda: That may be beyond their dream, but I am not so-called sādhu. I am trying to execute the orders of my Guru Mahārāja, predecessor. I am not a so-called sādhu, taking a saffron robe, begging for fulfilling the belly.
Gargamuni: They have to accept you as an international leader.
Prabhupāda: You can describe like this. Just like if a man is diseased, so the physician imposes upon him some restriction, do and do not. So if by mistake we give up the do not's, then it is useless. He should observe the do not's. Then he'll be cured. And if he does not observe the do not's—whatever he likes, he does—that means his disease is increasing. Therefore it is useless. The real aim of life is how to get out of the clutches of māyā which is forcing me to accept the cycle of birth and death. That is my disease. Therefore tapasya. Tapasya means restricted life, not unrestricted life. So if we do not follow the restricted life, that means I shall continue my disease or increase my disease. The modern civilization, we are teaching how to enjoy this material world to the fullest extent, bhogaiśvarya, sense gratification and for sense gratification, material opulence. But he does not know that he is killing himself. He is aggravating the disease. He has to accept another body. But that he does not know, that he'll have to take birth and die, again the same business. That he does not know. Therefore this civilization is misguided. Yesterday we were reading, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We have to purify our existence.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: The highest evolved man, the brain trust of the country, has got to be poor and has to be protected by other men. That is the highest. Otherwise, if a man with the brain becomes rascal, that is...
Prabhupāda: Miscreant. They are called duṣkṛti. They have got merit, but engaged in sinful activities. That is called duṣkṛti. Kṛti means meritorious. But duṣkṛtina. There are now... The education is there, but their brain is misused. That is called duṣkṛtina. Therefore they do not believe in God. Big, big men, they are nirākāra-vādī.
Dr. Patel: This co-education is no education at all. Education, that was really imparted by (indistinct) and ...
Prabhupāda: Education... This is craftsmanship.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's from Benares.
Prabhupāda: Pandiya means paṇḍita. Brāhmaṇa. (Hindi) Illiterate.
Indian man: Actually if a man is literate but if there is no saṁskāra, I can't say he is better than... If saṁskāra is there and no education, then still I call he is better man. The man without saṁskāra is nothing.
Prabhupāda: It is..., that brahmacārī means saṁskāra, to become satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñāna... Jñāna... You can have knowledge simply by hearing, not by reading books.
Indian man: Yes, by reading and writing all these things. (Hindi) By hearing, knowledge by hearing.
Prabhupāda: They can't. That, this nonsense speaking, is going on throughout the history, but they'll never be able. That is the fact. "We are trying. We shall do in future"—these things are going on. But this is all stories. We don't believe in these nonsense things. They'll never be happy. That is not possible. Therefore I challenged your technology that "Where is that department? Do it!" First of all do it. Suppose if a man is in business. He may say that "I am trying to become a millionaire." But he cannot say that "I am millionaire." So the so-called scientist, "Yes, we are trying." You are trying, that's all right. But when you become, then you call scientist. There is no possibility, and because you are trying I have to accept you are scientist? Recently in California University one professor came. He has gained the Nobel Prize, Chemical Evolution. They are trying to prove that life is generated by chemical evolution. So in that meeting I had my one student. He's Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara. He's also big chemist. So he knows. He talks with me. He has got the idea.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gargamuni: We went door to door for two hours.
Rāmeśvara: No, I mean it is practical that if a man comes with artistic talents, then I will try to engage him as an artist. Different talents...
Prabhupāda: No, engage him. There must be engagement. Either as a artist or bookseller, there must be engagement.
Rāmeśvara: According to different talents.
Prabhupāda: Nobody should be allowed to keep himself lazy. That is not good. Niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. That is... Find out this verse. Oh, he has taken away?
Hari-śauri: Bhagavad-gītā. Oh, I can get another Gītā.
Prabhupāda: You bring any "ist." They are all rascals. Take it. Then you are intelligent. You can bring any ism, but they're all rascals. You cannot change the law of nature.
Hari-śauri: If a man is destined to be poor, he'll be poor.
Prabhupāda: You cannot change. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). That is ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. That is the false ahaṅkāra. "Oh, I can become. I know something. I have become scientist. I have become politician." That is ahaṅkāra, simply. It is useless. You cannot do anything. Hm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Understanding the laws of nature and the provider of the laws of nature is necessary.
Satsvarūpa: A legal committee of Balavanta, Ādi-keśava, and Rāmeśvara will investigate whether certain techniques are legal or illegal according to the laws. Then one of the popular means to distribute books is by women's party. A party of women will travel under the care of a man devotee. But in taking care of the women, we have noted that some of these parties have been preaching a false philosophy of the relationship of the man who's taking care of the women, and that philosophy is that the saṅkīrtana leader is the eternal husband and protector of the women in the party. We want that this philosophy should be rejected. If a man is taking care of a number of women in a saṅkīrtana party, he should be regarded as the son as well as a representative of the spiritual master, of Śrīla Prabhupāda, and not the husband of these women.
Prabhupāda: Husband, but why he does not marry them? (laughter)
Mr. Koshi: Yeah, but who is the owner?
Prabhupāda: Ah. Yes. Machine, if you take the importance of the machine and not the machine driver, then what is your knowledge? If a dog is thinking "I am a bulldog, gow gow," and if a man is thinking "I am Indian, gow gow," what is the difference? He is embarrassed with the machine body, and he is also embarrassed with the machine body. The dog is jumping, monkey is jumping with a machine body, and if we also imitate jumping like the dog and the monkey, so what is the difference? The human being is to understand that "I am not this body." That is the first knowledge. That is the first principle.
Prabhupāda: "This is the definition of becoming a brāhmaṇa." Give this.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śamaḥ damaḥ kṣamā śaucam.
Prabhupāda: So you have to learn it. How you can become a brāhmaṇa?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like if a man has a disease, just by saying he doesn't have the disease, you can't change the fact that he is diseased. If someone is actually in a certain position, you can't... The way to change it is by actually changing him, not by simply saying, "Now you're okay."
Prabhupāda: These are the symptoms of becoming a brāhmaṇa. You develop these symptoms. Who checks you? Practically we are doing all over the world. There is no such thing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All the measures...
Prabhupāda: Whatever name you can give, it is not civilization. That we have to... Not that "How they are cheating." But it is not human civilization; it is animal. Just as animals cheat naturally. Animal fight. So we have to prove this is animal civilization. (Bengali or Hindi) This is not human civilization. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness it is not human civilization. That we have to prove. How it is not? You have to prove that "This is animal civili... This is not human civili..." Real human business is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's para-upakāra. In ignorance they are doing all nonsense. Stop them. Give them knowledge. This Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is real civilization. That we have to prove. It is clearly stated in... Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious-duṣkṛtina, simply cheating. And therefore narādhama, lowest of the mankind. And human life he's spoiling by cheating like animal. Who cheats? The man who doesn't care for the authority. He cheats. And if a man is afraid of law and government, he does not cheat. So godless person means cheater.
Prabhupāda: Nature. Nature's way.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Time factor. They cannot defeat the time factor. They want to make an old man a young man, without spiritual qualities. Only Kṛṣṇa can do that. What a rascal! I saw on the front page... There was one Muslim leader. He died. But he's being lauded as a great humanitarian welfare worker. And he gave one statement. He ended, "I have been an atheist, and I will die an atheist." He said, "Burn my body. Do not let it be at any ceremony. No plaque, nothing." He was against the Muslim making the women keep their heads covered, and it said he was a great worker for humanitarian rights. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Just like they praised that Dr. Ambhetkar for burning the Manu-smṛti. Manu-saṁhitā was burned, and he's praised, "A great man." It is coming to the time now when if a man is God conscious, he's considered the enemy of the people, and if he's an atheist, then he's praised for being humanitarian. Therefore they don't recognize you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Young man (4): Swamiji, if a man admits or comes to the conclusion that his mind is chaos...
Prabhupāda: Chaos?
Young man (4): In seeking to bring order into the chaos...
Prabhupāda: Mind's business is...
Young man (4): In seeking to bring order to this chaos, won't his natural path open before him? Won't he naturally come to spiritual sādhana?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the question?
Young man (4): I say, if a man sits down and admits to himself that his mind is chaotic, in trying to bring order to this chaos, won't his natural spiritual path open before him, when he sets about purifying his mind?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said, if someone is sitting down and the mind is very chaotic, and, he says, is there not something inherent within the living being that automatically that chaos will go away of its own accord?
Young man (4): No, no, no, that's not what I said.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It isn't?
Young man (4): No, it's not what I said. What I said was, when finally man comes to the conclusion that his mind is chaotic—there is no order—when he admits this to himself and he looks to find a way to purify his mind, will not the spiritual sādhana open up naturally?
Indian man (1): Without a guru.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's the point I'm making. I mean that's something within himself.
Prabhupāda: Without a guru? That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: "Don't waste time by seeing these rascals," I told him. Still thinking of so many poli... I said, "No, don't see. There is no use." If a man is not of character, what... And especially if he's not a devotee... Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. There cannot be any good qualities. Immediately he is rejected. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). As soon as one is not devotee, we tell him, narādhama. Bas. That's all, finished. Why should I waste my time with...? But for some business we have to do, associate. That is another thing. So the student, the ideal... Then think of managerial arrangements. "Don't keep your head on the northern side." And he searched out, "There is a whole head. Oh!" On the northern or western side. So anything, if you have to inquire, you can put. (break)...Kali-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). They like this disturbed condition. "Politics, diplomacy, crookercy, I like." This is the position. One is a great cheater, crooked, diplomat—"Oh, he's very nice."
Prabhupāda: Summer residence.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Why not? If a man can have summer residence, Lord Śiva...
Bhakti-Prema: Actual residence is in Satyaloka. Brahmā is there in Satyaloka. That means 2,200,000,000 miles away from sun planet.
Prabhupāda: That... Then it is universe.
Bhakti-Prema: Yes, in the universe. It is very high.
Prabhupāda: And where is that cakra?
Bhakti-Prema: Cakra?
Prabhupāda: That polestar, center?
Prabhupāda: Strong eye, but looking third class. (Bharadvāja laughs)
Bharadvāja: We're also showing that human life means responsibility. Even on an ordinary level we are showing that a man may break a law and he's punished, but a dog, he's not punished for breaking man's law. He may cross the street in the wrong place, he is not punished by the law, but the man is. Animals are walking without clothes, but if a man goes out in the street without clothes, he's arrested. So we are making the point here that man is held responsible for his actions, whereas animal is not. And then we show... The conclusion of this is "Therefore human life has responsibility to engage in the pursuit of knowledge and advancing, not degrading himself." Then we want to show that misuse of this human form of life, or giving up that responsibility, has created a chaos in the world, that the world has become full of madness and fear and pain, and the whole civilization is misguided. We want to show on film, side by side, U.N. politicians barking in U.N. and cats and dogs barking in the street.
Prabhupāda: At least five thousand rupees business must be given otherwise... That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Immediately there should be business. If a man spends nearly a thousand rupees for travelling every month, he must be making fifteen, twenty thousand rupees. But he is not giving any money at all to the BBT. So where's the one thousand rupees going that he's given? He couldn't be using it for...
Prabhupāda: So we have given in charge and now stop it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was giving him travel money now for about two years. And he hasn't given any money to the BBT out of it so I, I really question. I'll talk with him further.
Prabhupāda: You deal.
| Page Title: | If a man... (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 31 of Aug, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=84, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 84 |