Trivikrama: If Christ was the son of God, the good son, how is that he didn't, he never mentioned Kṛṣṇa by name? Sometimes they criticize us like that: "Why is there no mention of Kṛṣṇa in the Christian Bible?"
Prabhupāda: He might not have mentioned, but why there are twelve names in the Bible?
Pañcadraviḍa: That's Old Testament. That's not Christ...
Prabhupāda: The name is there.
Acyutānanda: And Christ, Prabhupāda has...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The point is that just like when you're...
Prabhupāda: No, first of all, one should be answered.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm going to answer his point.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The answer to his point is that just as there's a president of the United States, so when someone is talking about the president, according to how intimate that person is, you discuss different subject matters. For example, if the person is just a common person, a regular person, you may discuss about the president's powers in the government. But when you meet someone who actually is intimately connected with the president, then you describe the president's family, how the president's family is doing, what is the president doing in his time of relaxation, etc. So similarly, Jesus was speaking to persons who were not very intimate with God. They were not so much spiritually advanced. Therefore, for those persons, simply the power and glory of God is mentioned in the Bible. But Kṛṣṇa, the description of Kṛṣṇa in the Bhāgavatam, is meant for the pure devotees. And for them the very detailed, intimate description of Kṛṣṇa is given there.
Pañcadraviḍa: Nirmatsarāṇām.
Prajāpati: A very major thing happenned to the Christian tradition in about 400 A.D. Up until that time, as best our records are, Christianity was very much like Kṛṣṇa consciousness, very much like our movement. But at that time it became the official religion of the Roman Empire under Constantine, and it took on many of the paraphernalia of the old Roman demigod worship, and at that time it became a whole...
Prabhupāda: Just to make it favorable for your government, for the government.
Acyutānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then deterioration began.
Trivikrama: Deterioration.
Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they don't... Again, mentioning this Saul. Saul was converted on the way to Damascus, and he became a believer in God. Then, by himself, he traveled all over the known world and convinced everyone in the Roman Empire to accept, to accept Christianity. So it may have taken on those formal signs, but actually there was no process... According to them, there was no process done to dilute the religion or to weaken it or to change it, but it was only accepted by the masses. That's all.
Prajāpati: Actually a very interesting thing, in terms of this point, is that this Paul, Saul, was in conflict with the direct disciplic succession from Jesus in many points. Those who were his, Jesus's, direct disciples, Paul disagreed with them and cut out many of their teachings or the teachings that were coming down in direct disciplic succession to make it more palatable to the outlying areas.
Pañcadraviḍa: The government.
Prajāpati: Yes. So at that moment there, the disciplic succession was broken.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: What is the time difference between Paul and Jesus' (?) disciples?
Prajāpati: He was here at the same time. Peter, James... He was a contemporary, but he had never had any personal contact with Jesus while Jesus was in Gospel. (?)
Pañcadraviḍa: In fact, he lived... He... In the beginning, he was against Christianity. He was antithetical to it. And then he experienced...
Acyutānanda: He was a professional religionist who made it popular to the...
Pañcadraviḍa: And then he experienced a so-called conversion, isn't it?
Prajāpati: Yes.
Acyutānanda: He fell off his horse and saw...
Prajāpati: He heard a voice, fell off his horse, and he was blinded, and his eyesight would only be restored when he would approach a certain man in Jerusalem who was part of the Christian fold, and when he approached that man then his sight would be returned.
Acyutānanda: This story...
Prabhupāda: Now, another question, that we say that God's name and God-all-powerful. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā: "In the name of God, all God's potencies are there." So have you got any name like that? That means if you chant that name, you get immediately contact with God.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: That idea is put forth in the Psalms repeatedly. It says, "Sing the names of the Lord with high-sounding cymbals, with drums." It says in one place that "The name of the Lord is exalted even beyond heaven."
Trivikrama: "Hallowed by Thy name." There's a prayer.
Prabhupāda: That... What is that name?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: They don't... The Christians... It says, "Sing the name of God," but they don't do that.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if you have to chant name... Just like we prescribe, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," so what is the name they recommend to chant?
Prajāpati: Adonai.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prajāpati: Adonai.
Acyutānanda: "Adonai" is a... It's an apostrophe.
Prajāpati: But that's the name that was chanted. Adonai (Hebrew).
Pañcadraviḍa: No, by the Christians.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: What about Christians?
Viṣṇujana: Jesus, Jehovah. They say Jesus is the name.
Prabhupāda: Adonai, whose name it is?
Pañcadraviḍa: Jewish.
Acyutānanda: In India Christians say that Jesus Christ is God.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: They're trying to substitute... In the beginning of the Bible it says that "In the beginning was the word, and the word was God." And modern-day translations, they have substituted the word "Christ" for "the word." So it says, "In the beginning was Christ, and Christ was God." So they're trying to make, they're trying in that way to make Jesus God. And that is the name, because they don't know what is that word.
Acyutānanda: Yes.
Prajāpati: We can understand this...
Prabhupāda: That is again another adulteration.
Prajāpati: It is adulteration, but the tendency is there because Kṛṣṇa is a person. Because God is a person, they, everyone, wants to worship God as a person. It's the only way God can be worshiped. So because they do not know Kṛṣṇa, they make Jesus God so they can worship him as a person.
Prabhupāda: That is also good. But do they do?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To worship means to follow the instructions, and they...
Prabhupāda: Do they follow?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...do not follow the instructions.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The... Do they follow the Ten Commandments?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Then?
Trivikrama: They say, "You cannot. It is not possible. Only you have to accept Christ. Then you will be saved."
Acyutānanda: As Lord Zetland.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Acyutānanda: Lord Zetland said, "It is not possible..."
Trivikrama: It is not possible.
Acyutānanda: ...to give up meat and illicit..."
Prabhupāda: Then? Where is Christian?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are. We are the Christians.
Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they say then, "You can't do any of these things, so you have to accept Christ in your heart."
Acyutānanda: That was my challenge, that "We are doing them better than all of you, so you... That's..."
Prabhupāda: No, if you keep God or Christ within your heart, then your heart will be purified. That means you are cheating.
Trivikrama: Yeah.
Pañcadraviḍa: Yeah, that's what it boils down to.
Prabhupāda: You are all cheaters, not Christians, but cheaters. You do not keep in the heart Christ's name or God's name, but you keep your own ideas. Therefore you think it is impossible. Otherwise, your heart would have been cleansed. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12).
- śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
- puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ
- hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi
- vidhunoti (suhṛt satām)
- (SB 1.2.17)
Anyone who is keeping Kṛṣṇa within his heart, he becomes cleansed of all dirty things. And because the dirty things are there, that means he is not keeping.