Expressions researched:
"idol"
|"idolaters"
|"idolatrous"
|"idolism"
|"idolize"
|"idols"
Guest: Money god is greater than Brahma and Śiva and Viṣṇu, just about, unfortunately. The people have made an idol of gold and silver and letter of paper, paper making the promises of government...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: ...which are never kept. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: I was going to say, it is a fraud.
Guest: Fraud.
Prabhupāda: Māyā.
Guest: But that is...
Prabhupāda: It is māyā. I give you piece of paper and you think on thousand rupees. This is māyā.
Prabhupāda: You can see by every one of us in this temple, like that. There will be, as the gopīs said, that "Since You are here, the opulences, all opulences are there." Since You are in the temple, since Kṛṣṇa is present there, all opulences will be. Just see that in the temple since Kṛṣṇa is present there, all opulences is there. If you think that this is idol worship, that is another thing. Kṛṣṇa is present here. You should believe like the gopīs, then everything (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: So western people, western civilization has become the father and mother of India.
Dr. Patel: They idolize.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is arcanā. Just like we perform in the morning, in the evening, at noon, arcā-vigraha. Viṣṇu, arcayam, Viṣṇu. It is not idol worship. Arcayaṁ viṣṇu-śilā-dhiḥ. If one thinks the arcā-mūrti, the worshipable Deity in the temple, as stone or as wood, arcayaṁ viṣṇu-śilā-dhiḥ guruṣu nara-matiḥ...
Prabhupāda: You require a scissor? Go to a blacksmith and pay something. He'll make a scissor. "No. Produce millions of scissor." Then where is market, sir? This is going on. Produce millions of TV machine. Simple they are used for wasting time. One or two or five made for some important business. Now they are producing millions of sets. They must sell. And people are induced to purchase. And as soon as they purchase, they simply see television. Idol worship. And learning vicious things. Some unnecessary picture is produced there. They like to see it. Two train are coming and they are smashed. (laughs) I have seen some television. People are learning how to smash, how to steal, how to harass people.
Brahmānanda: That statue where Napoleon is, formerly there was another statue there of Louis XIV. So Napoleon, he pulled down that other statue and put his statue there.
Prabhupāda: And somebody will come... Just like in Karachi they have pulled down Gandhi's statue, and I do not know what statue they placed. (break)
Kuruśreṣṭha: ...worship these statues by the stool of crows. They worship these statues by the stool of crows.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. No, if you want to worship, then worship as we do. We have Kṛṣṇa's Deity worshiping. But what is this, keep a statue on open place and the crows pass stool on the head? (laughter) What is this respectful? In the Vedic civilization does not required. They worship deity but not like that, exposed to the crows for passing stool. That is idolism, and this is good.
Brahmānanda: The Christians do this. They have Jesus Christ outside,...
Prabhupāda: In the open.
Brahmānanda: ...exposed. And they accuse us of idol worship.
Brahmānanda: I was seeing in one of these Time magazines. On the rear page they're advertising a cigarette that is especially meant for women. It's a slimmer size. The larger size is for the men; the slimmer size is for the women. And the title of the advertisement, they show one picture of a woman cleaner, sweeper. She is cleaning the floors. This picture was taken in the 1920's. It was taken in Washington D.C. because in the background they show the capitol building is there in Washington D.C. So then they have a picture of a modern woman. She's sitting there looking very nice. And they say that "You've come a long way, baby." (laughter) Whereas in the 1920's you were sweeping the floors and now you're sitting on a throne.
Prabhupāda: "So you accept this cigarette."
Brahmānanda: Yes. "This cigarette is meant just for you to show that you're superior."
Prabhupāda: I think there was some objection, woman taking this objection, why woman's idol should be displayed in the shopkeeper's show windows.
Brahmānanda: The mannequins.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There was some protest. Generally, they keep the dolls of woman, beautiful woman. So there was some protest.
Prabhupāda: How much they are in darkness, and they are making propaganda, "Awake." This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya... One blind man is awakening other blind men. (break) ...kalākendra.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: All of the kendras are supported by businessmen. They would much rather support a kalākendra rather than the temple because they think...
Prabhupāda: Temple is useless now. You see, Nanda has spent so much money in that Kurukṣetra, and not a single temple. You see?
Indian man (1): There is no temple in Kurukṣetra where they are worshiping Kṛṣṇa like we are worshiping. There is no temple.
Harikeśa: The Gauḍīya Math?
Indian man (1): Even they can't worship as we are worshiping.
Prabhupāda: How they can worship? The worship is done by devotee. Unless you create devotee, where is the question of worshiping? Without devotee it is idol worship. There is no life. And without life, how can you pull on artificially? Aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-rañjanam. Which way I shall go?
Prabhupāda: Just to cheat you because you sleep more. (laughter) Because you sleep more, to cheat you. You do not rise early in the morning; therefore they are engaged sometimes to cheat you. (break) ...found a very nice house in London. Jayatīrtha is going to take the credit of purchasing it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, we found a very nice house in London, and you're going to get the credit for purchasing it. Just see.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayatīrtha: Well, if Kṛṣṇa desires.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything Kṛṣṇa does, but one takes credit. That's it.
Jayatīrtha: We think that we're the doer, but actually Kṛṣṇa is the doer.
Prabhupāda: Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's been a feeling that all year their hard work has all become worthwhile simply by coming here.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Make it more.... Therefore I wanted first of all this house, not the temple, because where they'll stay? They'll come to the temple. Where they will stay? If you get staying place, then you can act your brain and improve. And if you are harassed—no place—then brain will not work. Therefore I wanted first of all the residential place. And they criticize me, "Oh, you did not construct temple first." And a temple of the devotees is first, our temple. Then God. God will come if there are devotees. Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyantī mad-bhaktāḥ. Unless there is devotee, where is God? God is not a stone. Any stone is God? Unless there is devotees, there's no God. Therefore, without devotee: the idol, this is idol worship. That is not worship. Therefore they cannot understand what is the form, what is the distinction between form of the Lord and idol. They do not know how to worship in devotion. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). They are thinking, "It is stone, and God is remaining here, stone. He will never speak," because they are not devotee. If you become devotee.... Just like Sākṣī Gopāla. For devotee He went to give witness, "Yes, I'll walk." That is God. And if you are not devotee, how you can expect the stone statue is walking? You have read that Sākṣī Gopāla?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, very nice.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Gopāla was saying that "You are asking Me to go to give witness. Do you think a statue can go?" So he is devotee. He said, "Yes, if statue can speak, he can go also." So he had firm faith. So Kṛṣṇa had pledged him, "Yes, I'll go."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you also have that firm faith, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: No, without firm faith there is no beginning of God worship.
Guest (4): Can I ask a question?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (4): Do you consider.... Is it your Deity? Do you consider that glorified?
Prabhupāda: No, the Deity is the form of the Lord, but when you say, "the bone and flesh," so how we can accept as Deity?
Guest (4): Now, you say that the Deity is the form of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (4): Now you've also...
Prabhupāda: Also here is. Here is the Deity.
Guest (2): No, that's an angel called Moronai.
Prabhupāda: "Angel," but you cannot dishonor him.
Guest (2): It's in honor of him.
Prabhupāda: You honor him.
Guest (2): No.
Prabhupāda: Then why you put this?
Guest (4): It's just a picture.
Prabhupāda: Oh, you don't honor him.
Guest (4): Don't honor him.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of picture? (laughter)
Guest (4): Could I ask you another question? Could I ask you another question? You've been hitting on some of the Ten Commandments tonight like "Thou shall not kill." Now, if you believe the Ten Commandments like that, it also says in there that you shouldn't worship idols, bow down to idols.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we don't worship idol. We worship God.
Prabhupāda: But we, if we keep that statue in a temple, is it not more respectful?
Guest (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: If I expose the statue on the open field and the crows and birds are passing stool on his head and it is going down his mouth, is it respectful? Do you think it is respectful?
Guest (2): Probably not.
Prabhupāda: So if that statue is kept in a temple and you dress, you garland, you offer food, is it not more respectful?
Guest (2): Offer food to an idol?
Hari-śauri: It's not an idol. This is a point Prabhupāda is making.
Prabhupāda: The point is how to offer respect, that if you respect a person, so if you expose this form of the person on the public park, giving the crows chance to pass stool on his head, that is more respectful? Or if you keep that statue in a temple and daily dress him and garland him and offer him food, that is more respectful? Which is more respectful? You are doing the same thing, but you are exposing to the stool of birds and crows.
Guest (2): No, see, you have a misunderstanding of the representation...
Prabhupāda: No misunderstanding. It is a common sense that if you have got respect for a person, instead of installing his form—either it is statue or stone, it doesn't matter—keeping it outside and giving chance the bird to pass stool on his head, if you keep that statue in a nice place, which is more respectful? That is my question. It is a common sense. If you have got respect for a person.... You have installed the statue. Don't call Deity. Statue. So which is more respectful, to keep him exposed on the open field or to keep him in a temple?
Guest (2): Well, I think if I was looking at it in your point of view, it would be more respectful to put him inside.
Prabhupāda: That's the.... That is the point.
Guest (4): That's your point of view, not ours.
Prabhupāda: Then? That is your.... I do not know what is your point of view, that you expose this to the open air and the birds pass stool on it and you still...
Guest (2): It is simply a workmanship of man to make the building maybe more...
Prabhupāda: I am just talking on the practical point of view. Which is more respectful? Apart from other points, if we actually offer somebody respect, then you must give him proper respect.
Guest (2): But, see, we do not see Moronai in that.... Moronai does not reside...
Prabhupāda: You do not see that the crows passing stool? You do not see it?
Guest (2): He might. He might do something on it. But he's not doing it on Moronai.
Prabhupāda: Suppose your father's statue is there, and crow passing on the nose stool. You don't feel that "My father's statue is..."
Guest (2): Well, I don't think that it was done on Moronai because Moronai is not in that statue.
Prabhupāda: No, no, Moronai, anyone. I am not.... But there are so many statues, so many statues in the open field, and they are exposed to the birds for passing stool. Do you think it is more respectful than one keeping the same statue in a nice sacred temple and worshiping?
Guest (2): Yes, it's nice. They should.
Prabhupāda: So you criticize the person who is keeping the statue within a temple, "the heathen worship, idol worship," and you keep your father's statue exposed for passing stool on his head.
Guest (4): You know, if you're going to liken it unto that, I can also liken it unto your statues down here in your temple...
Prabhupāda: No, take it as statue, but where is good sense, to keep a statue within a temple or to keep it open field for passing stool by the birds?
Woman guest (2): Could you... Do you think you could explain to me about the Deities and how it's different from idol worship? Because no one has been able to explain that to my understanding.
Prabhupāda: Idol means your imagination. And Deity is not imaginary. Deity is installed by the authorized person and it is worshiped according to authorized methods. So it is not idol. Idol worship, you imagine something and, some doll or idol, and do in your own way, that is idol worship.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: She's saying but it's manufactured, it's made, graven.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. But it is made according to the Vedic principles. Just like in the Vedas, Kṛṣṇa's form is described, veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣam (Bs. 5.30). Kṛṣṇa is playing on His flute, veṇuṁ kvaṇantam. His eyes are like the petals of the lotus flower. So if you follow the description, then it is coming from the Vedic literature or Vedic knowledge. It is not that an artistic way of imagining some idol, the eyes are like this and He must play flute. It is not like that.
Woman guest (2): That's because it came from scriptures instead of from men's minds.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is authorized. When you take anything from the statute, book, that is law. And if you manufacture something, that is not law. Just like, I'll give you one very good example. Just like in your front of your house there is U.S. letterbox. So another man, he sees that the box is in front of his house, "Why shall I go so far? Let me manufacture a box here." So he's posting. After six months, he'll see all these letters are lying there. (laughter) And one who is posting that authorized box, his letter is going to thousands and thousands of miles away. So you cannot imitate. If you imitate U.S. letterbox in front of your house and post your letters, it will never go, it will remain there.
Prabhupāda: He's a Hong Kong man?
Devotee (1): No, he is from Thailand.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Bangkok.
Devotee (1): And he's a multimillionaire. He owns approximately one third of all the land in Thailand.
Prabhupāda: Oh!
Devotee (1): Chairman of many big businesses.
Prabhupāda: You have given some books?
Devotee (1): He has received books.
Prabhupāda: Where you will meet him?
Devotee (1): His former secretary is now a devotee in this temple, she is from Thailand. And when he came to visit her in Paris, she introduced me to him, and since then he has spoken about us to his family, to businessmen. Many big people in Thailand.
Hari-śauri: People in Thailand are quite pious.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are Indian culture. Their original culture is Indian. It is called Siam. (pronounces like Śyāma) Kṛṣṇa's name. And they have got the airplane, Garuḍa.
Hari-śauri: Yes. Garuḍa Airlines.
Prabhupāda: So they are devotees originally, all Kṛṣṇa devotees.
Devotee (1): The king is speaking Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It was known, it has been changed now. Formerly, it was known as Syam state, Siam. Syam is the name of Kṛṣṇa. Whole state was named under Kṛṣṇa. So, and they manufacture very nice idol of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. They're accustomed.
Devotee (3): " 'I worship the primeval Lord Govinda who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Śyāmasundara situated within the heart of the devotee.' At this stage Lord Kṛṣṇa never disappears from the sight of the devotee, nor does the devotee ever lose sight of the Lord. In the case of a yogi who sees the Lord as Paramātmā within the heart, the same applies. Such a yogi turns into a pure devotee and cannot bear to live for a moment without seeing the Lord within himself."
Prabhupāda: You are seeing also Kṛṣṇa, but because you have no love, therefore you cannot appreciate how we are seeing. If you love some person you keep his photograph on the breast. Is it not? So you are seeing Kṛṣṇa in the temple, but because you have no love you think that "I am not seeing Him." That is the defect. They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why they have sacrificed everything for worshiping Kṛṣṇa, for dressing Kṛṣṇa, for feeding Kṛṣṇa? They are seeing Kṛṣṇa. They are not wasting their time. But you have no love for Kṛṣṇa. You're thinking that "They have not seen Kṛṣṇa. They are worshiping an idol." That is the difference. One who loves somebody he keeps his picture on his chest. He does not? He throws it, same picture. It is question of love. Therefore it is said, premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu (Bs. 5.38). One who has developed that love and bhakti, he can see Kṛṣṇa at every moment. Otherwise it is not possible. And because you cannot see, you ask them also, "Can you see?" But the seeing process is different. We do not know the process; therefore we are thinking that Kṛṣṇa cannot be seen. And one who knows the process, he sees every moment. Is it clear? You learn the process; you will see Kṛṣṇa every moment. Therefore this word is used, premāñjana-cchurita. By the eye ointment of love you have to smear your eyes; then you'll be able to see Kṛṣṇa. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). Find out this verse. Yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ. When one's eyes is covered by the yoga-māyā he cannot see, see Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Hari-śauri:
"Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence."
Prabhupāda: Just to keep you everlastingly in darkness He shows this līlā, that "See? I am dying. You are right that I am a man." Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). "You rascal, mūḍha, you remain in that condition." This is explanation. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa can die? We do not die, His part and parcel. And how He can die?
Gargamuni: Well, they will try and separate Kṛṣṇa from His soul, His body from His soul.
Prabhupāda: Whatever you do, that is for you. It is not Kṛṣṇa's actual position. It is for you: "Yes. You see? I am dying." Just like sometimes Hindu-Muslim riot, many Deities of Kṛṣṇa, all broken. So the Muhammadans, they think, "Now Hindu's Deity I have broken. Finished."
Hari-śauri: "God is dead."
Prabhupāda: "God is dead." So it is like that. By breaking the Deity, he thinks that "Now Hindu's Kṛṣṇa is dead now, finished. We have finished." (laughs) But does it mean that he has broken the Deity, therefore Kṛṣṇa is finished? But he thinks like that, "Yes, we have finished the Hindu Deity." So that he will continue his foolishness that "These people worship idol and we can break that, finish." This is the answer.
Rāmeśvara: This will be very difficult for them to understand.
Prabhupāda: So how they will understand, atheist?
Rāmeśvara: They cannot understand anything.
Prabhupāda: They cannot understand. So keep them in darkness. This is the only way. Mūḍhā janmani janmani (BG 16.20), life after life. (break) Mūḍhā janmani janmani. In another place Kṛṣṇa said, bahūni me janmāni tava cārjuna, ātītani tava cārjuna.
Prabhupāda: Lord Buddha appeared to cheat the atheist class of men. Sanmohāya sura-dviṣam. Sura-dviṣam means those who are envious of the believers, sura. They are called sura. And those who do not believe in God, they are called asura. Just to bewilder them that "Here is incarnation..." They do not accept incarnation. They do not accept God. Where is the question of incarnate? "Here is our leader." So they did not believe in God. And Buddha said, "Never mind. There is no God. You haven't got to believe in God. You believe me or not?" "Yes, sir, I believe you." That is cheating. He's God. He's supporting that "Don't believe in God. But believe me." (laughs) This is cheating. He supported them: "Yes, there is no God. But what I say, you believe?" "Yes. What you say, we shall believe." This is cheating. Sanmohāya sura-dviṣam. Mohaya. So God has to deal with so many rascals, fools, in this material world. Sometimes He displays His pastime like that. Therefore who will understand? Only the devotees will understand. So you do not understand Kṛṣṇa. We are devotees of Kṛṣṇa. We know the secret. To keep you perpetually in darkness, He manifested such līlā that He is dead, finish. Just like the idol-breaker. They think, "Now their Kṛṣṇa is finished. We have broken." During Hindu-Muslim riot they do that. They break their mosque, and they break their temple and idol also.
Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja underwent so much persecution. He was never disturbed, because he was confident that "Kṛṣṇa will give me protection. Never mind." That is another position. Mahā-bhāgavata. We are kaniṣṭha-adhikārīs. We have to worship Deity.
Guest (1): No, that is very difficult. That is very, very difficult.
Prabhupāda: Not difficult, but it requires elevation. So we should not imitate.
Guest (1): No, I mean desires... Just like your idol worship. Idol worship is not actually fruitless or anything. It's only to imagine God in it and just to have the concentration.
Prabhupāda: No, but idol worship is... These atheists, they say "idol worship," but we do not say. The... Here is Sākṣi-Gopāla. You know the story, Sākṣi-Gopāla? Two brāhmaṇas? So he never saw that He is idol. He saw Kṛṣṇa. So he said, "Kṛṣṇa, before You this man has promised. Now he's declining. So please come and give witness." And that is Sākṣi-Gopāla. So for a devotee, no. There is no idol.
Guest (1): No idol. No, that idol is actually, they are planned to...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is actually happened. The so-called idol, He went to be witness. He came from Vṛndāvana to Cuttack. So "idol worship" is they say. But devotee... Just like people are coming by thousands to see Jagannātha. Do they come to see idol? Wooden Jagannātha? They come to see real Jagannātha, Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why they will spend so much money and take so much trouble and come here? The atheists may say, "How foolish they are. They are coming here to see a wooden figure and spending so much money." That is the statement of the atheist. But a devotee comes to see—"Kṛṣṇa is here." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw—immediately fainted. So there are two visions. Therefore it is forbidden. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. So the atheist class, they see, "Here is a wooden... Oh, what is the Jagannātha made of? Wood or stone?" They're seeing wood and stone. Similarly, Vaiṣṇavas also they're seeing, "a American," "European." They are blind. They have no capacity to... Therefore śāstra says, "Don't think like that, nārakī. If you think like that, then you become hellish." Because he has no vision, he's warned only, that "Don't do this. It is very dangerous." Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. "Don't do it." Because he cannot see as it is, he has not elevation, but he is warned, "Don't think like that." Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, he has no such vision. Therefore he's warned, "Do not do this." Just like a child. He does not know that to touch fire is dangerous. He's warned, "Do not do it. It will be..." So similarly, this is warning, "Don't do this." Therefore śāstra is there. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate: "Without śāstra, if one does anything," na sa siddhim avāpno..., "he'll never be perfect." So śāstra-vidhi we have to follow. Then we come to perfection. (aside) Hm. So that is I think scorching heat.
I am glad that your friendship with Mr. George Harrison is gradually working, so much so that he is now prepared to spend $3,000 for an altar slab and a block of bluish marble for carving Krishna or Lord Caitanya. For Lord Caitanya yellowish marble or white marble should be used. If yellowish golden colored marble is available, that is very nice. Another thing is that these Forms should be worshiped. Our Deity worship is not heathenism. If we keep Forms of the Lord without worshiping the Deity under regulative principles, it will gradually turn into idol worship, which is an offense. The Deity of the Lord and the Lord Himself are identical. Krishna can act through the Deity perfectly. As I have given several times the example, the mailbox can act perfectly as the post office because it is authorized. Similarly, when the Deity is installed under authorized regulative principles, the Deity is as good as Krishna Himself.
Regarding your questions, it is not very good to put "statues" of Radha and Krishna on a shelf. If they are not worshiped as deities what is the use of such display? Visitors will get the wrong idea that they are merely decorative figures or idols, that we do not take them very seriously. Why you do not worship them on the altar?
Now some of our men have met with the Maharaja of Bharatapur here in Bombay, he sent his men to fetch us, and in a bitter mood he requested us immediately to return his idols of silver Radha and Krsna. So let us return them to him, we do not want any ill feeling to be against us. So you may return those deities to him at earliest opportunity, either at Delhi or at Govardhana. He also has requested his book. I do not know which book that is, but he said that Acyutananda has it and he wants it back without delay, so return him.
In Germany you have to follow this principle. Once opened it cannot be closed. Somehow or other you have to manage to continue the temple worship. That is the devotional cult. If they are closed and it is impossible to re-open, then what can be done? If there is no Deity, then it doesn't matter. If possible re-open the Hamburg temple and transfer the Deity again and worship. A center without a Deity can be closed, but a center with a Deity if closed it is a great offense. The Deity is not an idol; it is Krsna. We cannot say to Krsna personally, now go away.
Unless one understands what is Krishna they will simply accuse us of having idol worship. They must first understand the science of Krsna then they may appreciate the temple. So go and and distribute as many books as possible.
| Page Title: | Idol (Conv and Letters) |
| Compiler: | Labangalatika, Suan, Visnu Murti |
| Created: | 01 of Feb, 2010 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=17, Let=5 |
| No. of Quotes: | 22 |