Prabhupāda: Is there water? Bring it. Hmm, yes?
Arnold Weiss: The mind questions some of these things, and these questions kind of flow naturally, and one wonders why the structure of the universe or of the world has been made in such a fashion that it takes a great deal of misery and difficulty for us to turn towards God.
Prabhupāda: Because he doesn't want to turn towards God.
Arnold Weiss: Because we don't want to?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like God says that "You surrender unto Me." And who is going to surrender? He says clearly, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), and who is doing that? So why he'll not suffer? He must suffer.
- daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
- mama māyā duratyayā
- mām eva ye prapadyante
- māyām etāṁ taranti te
- (BG 7.14)
He would not do that. He'll try to become himself God: "No, why shall I surrender to God? I am God." He is dog, he is kicked even by dog, and he's still thinking, "I am God." This is the difficulty.
Arnold Weiss: So as I understand it-tell me if I interpret it correctly-we're being put more or less into our place, being shown where we really are in relation with God through our suffering.
Prabhupāda: Yes. God is giving you the remedy, that "You surrender to Me, you are immediately relieved from all sufferings." But we shall not do that. So what is the alternative than suffering? This is common sense.
Arnold Weiss: This is a lesson in learning through contrast, then.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Arnold Weiss: This is a lesson in learning through contrast, the contrast of suffering versus not suffering.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Suffering, this is only suffering. This material world is only suffering, but under illusion we are accepting suffering as enjoyment.
Arnold Weiss: Is this because the illusion that we see is a representation of the spiritual world in a sense?
Prabhupāda: Illusion is another punishment. We wanted to forget God, and God's illusory energy is giving him facility to forget God. This is called illusory energy.
Arnold Weiss: In the beginning, when we were first part of God, as I understand from reading Bhagavad-gītā and some of your other translations and purports, which I enjoy very much—I thank you for making them available—I understand that our souls are also part of God, as a drop of water is part of that ocean. How... Is there any knowledge or information of how we incurred this first separation from God?
Prabhupāda: Separation... Generally, when we want to become God, there is separation.
Arnold Weiss: A rebellion.
Prabhupāda: You cannot... There is one God, and if you want to become God, you are immediately driven away: "Just become God in the material world. Go there and try to become God."
Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda? There is a parallel in the Bible that Lucifer broke away from God because He wanted to be God.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Arnold Weiss: I was thinking that too.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) This rascaldom... This rascaldom makes him a dog. Instead of God, he become a dog. So this rascaldom is going on, that "I am God." For this purpose he's suffering, and still, he wants to continue it. Nobody can become God; God is one. Ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti. So how we can become God? But that endeavor is going on.
Arnold Weiss: As I understand it, since God is omnipresent, omnipotent, all-knowledgeable and all-remembering, then He is in a position where He can know what our choices are going to be, and what is going to happen with us in the future.