Prabhupāda: So I don't think your science has reached to the point to find out the measurement of the living entity.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is very true.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: That is very true. That is very true.
Prabhupāda: But we get information that there is a measurement. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya, śatāṁśaḥ sādṛśātmakaḥ CC Madhya 19.140 . The tip of the hair you divide into one hundred parts, and take that part, again divide into one hundred parts, that is the measurement. That is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. How far do you agree with this?
Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. (laughs) I don't know what you mean by that, but of course it is very true that we do not know much about life, and scientists are the first to agree to that, that we know very little.
Prabhupāda: That is real scientist.
Krishna Tiwari: But the question is, on the left hand... Of course, in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of many scientists, there is no difference between a scientist or a common man or a religious man. Both..., all these people are trying to find out about their environment. So are the religious men. They want to find out more about themselves, about the nature they live in. They want to know more about it. They want to find out why they're here, how are they to live in this world, and so I do not think there is any difference between the two.
Prabhupāda: No, there cannot be difference.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. And the only difference is that where the scientist deals with the phenomena of nature and wants to show it to others. In a strict sense he can tell how he (indistinct) better; others can go and say it. Sometimes it is very hard, I think, for all these reasons, for the religious leaders to do that.
Prabhupāda: So as so far the differences, there is no difference, because just like this body: the body has got different parts—the fingers, the hands, the eyes, the legs, so many different—but the whole purpose is to serve the body. Either with the finger or eyes or hands or legs, the whole purpose is centered on the soul of the complete whole body. Similarly, Bhāgavata says that whatever you may—you may be scientist, you may be philosopher, you may be an engineer, you may be a poet, you may be sociologist, politician, whatever you may be-their purpose should be avicyutaḥ arthaḥ. Avicyutaḥ means infallible purpose. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhih nirūpitaḥ. "It has been decided by great learned scholar," says "all of them should be engaged in glorifying the Supreme." Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. The scientists, from their angle of vision, should describe the glory of the Lord: how this biology is working by the manipulation of the Supreme Lord. Similarly chemists, physicists, engineers, politicians, there are different departments, but all of them should join together, congregation, and from their different scientific point, angle of vision, they should glorify the Supreme Lord.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like I was speaking that the measurement of the living entity is such and such. So how God has become so small? Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān . This is... This we can simply imagine: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. I don't think any scientist can have any measuring instrument.
Krishna Tiwari: I think that can be measured.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: I think they can measure that.
Prabhupāda: How think?
Krishna Tiwari: It can be measured.
Prabhupāda: It can be measured?
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It can be measured; otherwise how it is said?
Krishna Tiwari: Very easily measured.
Prabhupāda: Ah! It can be measured, but they say there is no soul.
Krishna Tiwari: Scientists say there's no soul?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: Because they don't know how to look for it.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, how they'll measure? That way it is impossible for them to measure.
Devotee: They can't find it.
Prabhupāda: They cannot find it.
Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else has.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has found it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We, I said, this is the measurement.
Krishna Tiwari: But since nobody else has found it...
Prabhupāda: Nobody else has found it, that is different thing, but the measurement is there in the śāstra.
Krishna Tiwari: How to measure it then?
Prabhupāda: How to measure, that is a different thing, but the measurement is there.
Krishna Tiwari: What is the measurement?
Prabhupāda: The one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair.
Krishna Tiwari: Well that's very easy to measure.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you find it.
Krishna Tiwari: But that's probably the reason. Nothing is there, just a number, because...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: This is just a number, because one-thousandth part of hair is just a big number that...
Prabhupāda: Not one thousandth. One ten-thousandth.
Krishna Tiwari: That doesn't matter. You can make it one millionth.
Prabhupāda: How's that?
Krishna Tiwari: It will be a measure of a distance, which is very easy. That cannot be a source.
Prabhupāda: So... No. That cannot be so easy. It is definitely said, jīvaḥ bhāgasya vijñeyaḥ . Jīva means solo, soul. Soul's measurement is given there in the śāstra.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, but what are the... This is the... I don't know. This is the measurement, one thousandth of a...
Prabhupāda: One ten-thousandth.
Krishna Tiwari: ...of a tip of hair?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is... I don't understand that, because that will be, at that time I think it was all right, because people thought nobody could measure one thousandth, ten-thousandth of the tip of a hair.
Prabhupāda: I, we don't say people could not measure. People could measure. People measured; therefore it is, the measurement is given there. It is not that people could not measure. People measured it, definitely, and then gave it, "This is the measure."
Krishna Tiwari: Okay, so what you are trying to say? What symbolically it means, very small. Is that what it means? Is that what it means?
Prabhupāda: Very small..., that small part is there in every body. The soul is there. Now, they, without finding it, they say soul is nirākāra; there is no measurement. That is my point. I say there is ākāra, form.
Krishna Tiwari: There is a form of soul, according to you.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. But they say there is no form. That is my point.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, they don't know probably, at this moment. But I don't..., I..., we have trouble, at least I have trouble, in understanding whether anybody else knows about soul. According to you...
Prabhupāda: Now, so far we are laymen, we have no instrument to measure. We simply hear from the śāstra and we try to perceive, that's all. But there is something. That measurement very, may be very, very small, but there is the substance. That is our point.
Krishna Tiwari: Right. But, I mean, with due respect to śāstras , after all, in my opinion śāstras are written by very intelligent people, and how so ever intelligent they would have been five thousand years ago, they could not have...
Prabhupāda: Not five thousand years.
Krishna Tiwari: Or ten thousand?
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot calculate.
Krishna Tiwari: How... Well, this is a different game then.
Prabhupāda: No. We have got... Because this, if we take on the strength of śāstra, we understand that after the birth of Brahmā... Brahmā created this universe.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Lord Brahmā.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Prabhupāda: But, uh, Brahmā's one day you cannot calculate.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. I agree with that.
Prabhupāda: So now, at the present moment, we are in one day's..., Brahmā's one day we have passed only half.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ BG 8.17 . So one yuga is calculated to be forty-three lakhs of years. Now...
Krishna Tiwari: That is also 4.3 million years.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: That is 4.3 million.
Prabhupāda: Yes, and multiplied by 1000.
Krishna Tiwari: OK, we've got 4.3 billion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, that is the duration of daytime, one daytime of Brahmā, and similarly calculate night, similarly you calculate, that is twenty-four hours, one day and night. Similarly, you calculate one month.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I understand that, Swamiji, but uh...
Prabhupāda: In this way he lives for one hundred years, according to these calculations.
Krishna Tiwari: I can understand that, but, see, we do know. We do know the age of the earth, and we know better than anybody else does.
Prabhupāda: How can you know?
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, we know. We know our own measurements, which are very reliable. Different people will come up with the same number, and we do not have to depend upon any, you know, round-about answer.
Prabhupāda: No, we have to depend...
Krishna Tiwari: No, we don't.
Prabhupāda: You theories changes every year.
Krishna Tiwari: No... Well it changes (laughter), because it is very...
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to depend.
Krishna Tiwari: No. Change is the law of nature. Change is the law of nature. Change...
Prabhupāda: "Change is the law of nature," that's fine...
Krishna Tiwari: And therefore...
Prabhupāda: ...but one should know the whole duration of change. Just like we know that sunrise, from the morning 'till evening, there are so many changes, but I know what is that changes. That is knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: That is true, but you...
Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that "I know seventh year. I do not know what is going to happen ninth, eighth year."
Krishna Tiwari: No, that is not the point. Point is that..., point is how to, how long this earth where we all live... Now we're talking about only this earth. How long this earth, we know, existed?
Prabhupāda: I'm not talking of the earth. I'm talking of the whole universe.
Krishna Tiwari: Right. Well, we'll talk about one object first, before we talk about universe next. (laughing)
Prabhupāda: That means you are not in the knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: No. But some of you, I mean, you want to talk about something, you want to start from something which is easy to comprehend and go further. How is it...
Prabhupāda: Now, the whole universe is one unit.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree with philosophy...
Prabhupāda: If you study my whole body, you cannot begin studying my nails.
Krishna Tiwari: But you have to study nails.
Prabhupāda: That we, that will include.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But, if you study my body, you have to study the whole body, not my nails or my hair.
Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to start somewhere.
Prabhupāda: No. That is...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The scientific process.
Prabhupāda: Scientific process, you begin studying... Suppose you are studying biology, you begin from hair, do you mean to say?
Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but something I..., can I have my some doubts?
Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all you answer me.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I answer you because, uh...
Prabhupāda: That because you are studying my body you begin studying from my hair?
Krishna Tiwari: Some place, some place. It is hair, eyes, ears, someplace.
Prabhupāda: You think that is, uh, scientific?
Krishna Tiwari: Scientists will study... If they want to study a body, they study first outside, looking at what they can learn. Then after sometime it is stopped. Then one has to go inside.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. So our point of view is when we study the body, we study first of all the soul.
Krishna Tiwari: But how we know about soul?
Prabhupāda: We know from the Vedic knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well somebody said there is a soul, but the question is, unless we all realize, and there is a way of...
Prabhupāda: We realize, everyone realize. As soon as the soul goes away, your body is lump of matter.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well (laughs), this is just dead. I mean, I don't know whether soul went away or not. I don't know.
Prabhupāda: You don't know, but I know.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's your belief.
Prabhupāda: No belief. I'm taking...
Krishna Tiwari: That's your belief.
Prabhupāda: I'm taking my...
Krishna Tiwari: It's my belief too that there's a soul (laughing), but I, scientifically I don't know.
Prabhupāda: Your, your, your belief is also based on some scientific data.
Krishna Tiwari: No. No. Beliefs can be anything. But I can believe he's out to kill me. He can believe I'm a bad man.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Krishna Tiwari: Belief has no foundation.
Prabhupāda: No.
Krishna Tiwari: Not necessarily foundation.
Prabhupāda: Belief, belief is there. Fact is not belief. Fact is fact.
Krishna Tiwari: Well fact has to be established.
Prabhupāda: Established? Is established. I say, I say that this is the distinction between dead man and living man.
Krishna Tiwari: Will that extend to animals also?
Prabhupāda: Anyone. Anyone.
Krishna Tiwari: According to our Hindu philosophy, I understand everything has a soul.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everything. Everybody has a soul.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that makes me doubtful, because if I go into my laboratory and I can create as many souls as I like. I can breed animals, as many as them I like.
Prabhupāda: You cannot create. The souls are already there. You can find out...
Krishna Tiwari: Well I..., then I'm putting a lot of pressure on God. Every time I make lot of rats, I'm asking for rat souls.
Prabhupāda: Rat has soul, yes.
Krishna Tiwari: I know, but that's... Why, why then I can do it? When I can, or when I want them to be here, they will be here, not on the will of God. According to our concept of soul...
Śyāmasundara: If he's in the laboratory, and he's breeding rats, he's making rats have sex life and have babies, then he is controlling the souls of those rats.
Prabhupāda: He is not controlling. He is controlling the body.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, so body has soul.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Krishna Tiwari: So I'm controlling the soul.
Prabhupāda: No.
Krishna Tiwari: No? I'm making them come.
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot, you can..., you cannot control the soul.
Krishna Tiwari: I understand that.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise... Otherwise, when the soul is gone from the body...
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...you could replace one soul.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's true. I mean that, I, uh, if you go... But my point is that the rat has a soul, and if God has something to do with the soul, then I should have no control of it.
Prabhupāda: Apart from God. Apart... We're not going to God. Just like here...
Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Let's talk about soul.
Prabhupāda: You are studying the hair. Your point is you're studying... Soul is the part of God, mamaivāṁśo BG 15.7 . God says, "The soul is My part and parcel."
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So first of all you study the part. What is the deficiency in the dead body? Have you studied it? That he's a dead body.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You are biologist.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: When the body is dead, what thing is missing? Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: The body gets dead because every reaction comes to equilibrium.
Prabhupāda: (to Śyāmasundara) What is that?
Śyāmasundara: Every reaction, chemical reaction, comes to a standstill.
Prabhupāda: How? How is this?
Krishna Tiwari: Huh?
Prabhupāda: How it comes?