Prabhupāda: That's very natural. It is costly here. But these children and their parents also very much interested. So I think you should have a nice institution here to train the children in this country. And after their education, they may take to any line of livelihood. That doesn't matter. But the foundation... Just like in our Vedic system, first of all brahmacārī. That brahmacārī system is very nice. Even Kṛṣṇa, God Himself, He has nothing to learn. He is abhijñā. In the Vedas He is described as abhijñā: He knows everything. But just to teach us, He also became a brahmacārī in the Gurukula. Lord Rāmacandra, He also accepted a guru, Vasiṣṭha. So that is our Vedic system. Anybody may be anything, but the process is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to learn the value of life, spiritual value of life, one must go to a guru. Tad vijñānārtham. In order to understand the spiritual value of life one must go to a guru.
Gurukula (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Devotee (5): Śrīla Prabhupāda? I am one of the teachers in the gurukula...
Prabhupāda: Ahh.
Devotee (5): ...and one of the boys, Ekendra, his mother, Kalindi, she wants to take him away from the school.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (5): She wants to take him away from the school. So she's leaving it up to you, to your decision, as to whether the boy goes with her or stays in the gurukula school. He's progressing very nicely at gurukula. The school is just starting. He's very intelligent boy.
Prabhupāda: So why he is taking? Why she is taking?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Kalindi wants..., likes to take Ekendra.
Prabhupāda: Why?
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Revatīnandana: It was when I went to school—I was a nice little boy—in school I failed out, only (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes, you must take as intelligent. That so..., time was wasted. Our, this gurukula should be taken care of very nicely. So nice preachers may come out. Brāhmaṇa, nice brāhmaṇa.
- tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido
- na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ
- tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ
- kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā
- (SB 1.5.18)
Revatīnandana: I'm still thinking about the other morning, we were talking about how everything is actually spirit. Everything is composed of spiritual atoms actually, souls. We were talking about the...
Prabhupāda: That is Vedic version, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma, everything is Brahman.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Bhagavān: ...the society would go to the gurukula, and there it would be decided what their work would be?
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all there should be an instructor on the spiritual life, then according to his position... Our spiritual life is meant, we should always remember... But for management we have to make divisions. That is...
Devotee: Actually the whole society could be Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Ah. They're Vaiṣṇava. But because they have got to live in the material world, there must be division of work. If everyone wants to become the brain, who will act as leg? That is also required. If everyone says, "No, no, I'm not going to do the work of leg. I want simply to work as..." No. It is needed. The brain is needed, the hand is needed, the belly is needed, the leg is needed. So that we have to divide. Who will work as brain, who will work as hand, who will work as leg... The main aim is how to maintain this body perfectly, fit.
Hṛdayānanda: Would it be for a particular age group?
Prabhupāda: Yes, any education, from childhood. Yes. Education means from childhood. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). The... How... We are getting so many sannyāsīs, they should teach. Teaching should be done by the sannyāsīs. Just like in missionary school, the fathers teaches.
Hṛdayānanda: How would it be different than gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hṛdayānanda: How would it differ from gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Gurukula is only for the small children. Preliminary, primary. And when the children are grown up, they should be sent to the varṇāśrama school or college for further developed training.
Hṛdayānanda: They should... Should they be taught also some... Should there also be teaching in some particular skill or varṇa? Such as say...
Prabhupāda: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: And there should... Should there be any material subject matters taught like in gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like material subject matter, kṣatriya, or the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, as they are described in the Bhagavad-gītā, what are the symptoms of brāhmaṇa, what is the symptoms of kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There will be training how to kill.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And vaiśyas should be trained how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: Should our children who are at gurukula, when they grow up, should they go to that varṇāśrama college, or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They should go.
Hṛdayānanda: We'll start it right away.
Prabhupāda: Varṇāśrama college means for grown-up students. College means for grown-up students.
Hṛdayānanda: Is there a minimum age for beginning such a college?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ten to twelve years.
Hṛdayānanda: They can start at ten to twelve?
Prabhupāda: Yes. From five to ten years, gurukula. And after ten years, they should go to the varṇāśrama college.
Mahāṁsa: Pious people, they see that actually they are not giving any spiritual benefit by converting them into Christianity. So they are very against this. They want some original Vedic school, Gurukula schools.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is, we have done already. Satsvarūpa has got practical experience. He can give you advice. He started this Gurukula. Practically this Gurukula I suggested, but he began. Yes. So you can take practical advice from him.
Mahāṁsa: I don't think we can start building until we finish this temple.
Prabhupāda: No, you can start in a cottage.
Mahāṁsa: Yes, small way.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: We have got our educational institution in Dallas, Gurukula. From small children we are educating to become highest devotee.
Swiss Man (1): (French)
Guru-gaurāṅga: (French) This gentleman says we had difficulties with the police in the beginning. And I said, "Yes, but then I went, and I gave him all your books, and he read them, and then there were no more difficulties."
Prabhupāda: Yes, on account of our books we are being appreciated everywhere. In the beginning they might have thought that "Some of the hippies," like that.
Prabhupāda: We have started a gurukula in Dallas. Small children are being trained up. Just like formerly there was brahmacārī āśrama. (aside:) Those ladies, they have come? No? If there are any inquiries. (break) ...record?
Devotee: Which record?
Bhagavān: From this afternoon, the recording.
Devotee: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Devotee: It's upstairs, or it's right out here.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You have got?
Devotee: I think so.
Prabhupāda: So it was going on for some years, then collapsed. The movement was started by some priest or gentleman, and it was supported by President Eisenhower. It was patronized by him. So their principle was that, Christian principle, that "You do whatever you... Simply confess. Simply confess." So that man came to India also with his party, just like I travel. (break) ...substance, no movement will stay. It may go on for some time, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Now, what about our movement? It will stay or it will also go like that?
Satsvarūpa: It will stay. We already have another generation coming up in Gurukula. The big danger, you say, is faction.
Prabhupāda: We shall go straight or right?
Haṁsadūta: Right. (break) He has taken safety place, and from safety place he is killing other poor animals. That is not shooting. The kṣatriyas, they will shoot tiger face to face. Previously Jaipur Mahārāja, he used to go to the forest, and so he would simply fight with the tiger with a sword.
Haṁsadūta: That doesn't happen anymore today.
Prabhupāda: See the tiger has got its nails and teeth and jaw. So there was no firearm. He will challenge the tiger with a..., and he will take a sword and kill him. And then the tiger would be brought in procession, giving all honor, military honor.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: ...chance should be given during childhood. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). This bhāgavata-dharma, that is our idea in Gurukula. Learn Kṛṣṇa consciousness from the very beginning of childhood.
Jayatīrtha: Bahulāśva's son is only three years old, but he can chant that "ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā... (CC Antya 20.12)," chant very nicely.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Jayatīrtha: And He chants also his rounds, couple of rounds every day.
Prabhupāda: And another child? Svarūpa-da? Yes...
Paramahaṁsa: Oh, Śiva-jvara.
Prabhupāda: Śiva-jvara. Oh, he's a wonderful child. He is English. He's so busy. He wants to do everything. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh, your son?
Devotee (10): Yes, Prabhupāda. He's going to go to Gurukula this summer.
Prabhupāda: Very good. How old he is?
Boy: Ten.
Prabhupāda: Hm? How many?
Devotee (10): Ten years old.
Prabhupāda: Ten years. And how old you are?
Devotee (10): Twenty-seven.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Sometimes young father and children, we say jokingly, bap beta dui bhāi: "Father and son, two brothers." Bap beta dui bhāi. In India there are many fathers—the father and son age difference, sixteen years, seventeen years. And mother and son, twelve years, thirteen years. There are many mothers. You have got one son?
Jagadīśa: Now he's working hard to put a ball in the hole.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows, "This is life." There is no other alternative. That is his ignorance. He cannot do it. Still, he is doing. You see? You know that when there was electric failure in New York? The statistics is that more women became pregnant. (laughter) But what they will do in the darkness? "Let us have sex." That's all. (laughter) (break)
Devotee: At the Māyāpur festival the older Gurukula boys are coming. Dvārakādhīśa and Ekendra, they're all coming. How many, about twelve?
Jayatīrtha: No.
Devotee: How many?
Jayatīrtha: Four.
Paramahaṁsa: Four. All four of them are coming. (laughter) (end)
Prabhupāda: Project will be decided by the GBC.
Jayatīrtha: Say, the Gurukula, for example...
Prabhupāda: Now I have elected this committee in Europe because the German trouble is going on. When the German trouble is over, there is no need of committee. It is only for this particular purpose because there we have to defend court, we have to see... So two, three heads, not one head. One head may be puzzled. Committee means for special purposes. Otherwise, the standing committee, GBC, is already there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just as a question...
Prabhupāda: Just like I appointed the committee to investigate...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bali Mardana.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that committee is not standing. Yet similarly, a committee may be formed for some special circumstances, but otherwise the GBC committee is sufficient.
Jayatīrtha: So the agenda for the GBC meeting to decide on... First of all, Jagadīśa has made one proposal for financing Gurukula, if it has to be discussed.
Prabhupāda: Hm? Financing?
Jayatīrtha: Gurukula is having some serious financial difficulties. So Jagadīśa has made a proposal, which we'll discuss.
Prabhupāda: So everyone's son is there, all devotees' son. So from every center some contribution should be given to the Gurukula.
Jayatīrtha: Jaya. That was my proposal. That becomes a kind of tax.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: In a sense, it's like a school tax.
Prabhupāda: But, at the same time, it should be examined how Gurukula is spending money.
Prabhupāda: Not unnecessarily spending. That is the duty of the GBC.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, about this tax, about this money to be taken from each temple. Gurukula is one of the projects. For example, there may be another project...
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Atreya Ṛṣi: ...that Your Divine Grace and group, when you travel, there needs to be also... Every temple should contribute to that as well.
Prabhupāda: Well, if every temple cannot contribute, I shall manage from the BBT fund. That is not a problem.
Atreya Ṛṣi: You want...? I am using that merely as a...
Prabhupāda: And if you can pay, it is all right. If there is deficit, BBT will pay. You don't bother.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But in this Gurukula project, Śrīla Prabhupāda, temples are having difficulty in paying their debts to BBT already. I don't think they will respond, respond. On one hand, BBT, Ramesvara Prabhu is recommending that we reduce the cost of books, and on the other hand, it's being recommended that the tax for Gurukula be collected.
Atreya Ṛṣi: What I am recommending is that, instead of reducing the charge to the temple and then collecting a separate tax, do not reduce the charge to the temple. Whatever reduction you were going to give, give that reduction to Gurukula.
Jayatīrtha: Then that means that BBT is paying.
Atreya Ṛṣi: No, BBT is not paying. You're going to give them a reduction. Don't give it to them...
Madhudviṣa: That means giving them unlimited money.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Eh?
Madhudviṣa: That means giving them unlimited money.
Atreya Ṛṣi: No. Well, for example, let's say I...
Madhudviṣa: If I distribute more books, then Gurukula gets more money. Then... They don't need all that money.
Atreya Ṛṣi: No.
Prabhupāda: No, no. This... This is... Contribution is better for you.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Separate contribution.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rūpānuga: Does that, does that... What about those temples that don't have any children there in Gurukula. Because it seems that the problem is not just that... There are people besides devotees who are not paying...
Prabhupāda: No, they can give.(?)
Jagadīśa: That's part of the proposal. Why not discuss in relationship to the proposal.
Jayatīrtha: Right. We have the whole proposal. Everyone has a copy, I think. So we can discuss that. The main point, I'm just saying now, is to read through the agenda and see if Prabhupāda approves that we're talking about these things, and then..., because these things are so detailed, and we have some proposals in writing. We can discuss them more. Anyway, so one proposal is Gurukula finance. Another proposal is Brahmānanda's made some proposals about Africa, specifically manpower to be sent to Africa. Another proposal... another thing is to discuss the BBT, BBT loans, moving of the Press, several points about BBT, lowering of the prices, these things...
Prabhupāda: So what is the advantage of moving the Press?
Prabhupāda: Never mind. We will create by distributing books new devotees. These devotee may be... But others will be created. And we are creating a new generation for becoming devotee at Dallas.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurukula. Śrīla Prabhupāda? One thing in your lecture you sometimes say that we spend ten lakhs a month just for maintaining. But I figured out we spend... You can say even fifty lakhs because ten lakhs is very conservative.
Prabhupāda: No, so far I have heard.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I... From what I have seen we spend...
Rāmeśvara: Ten lakhs is just three or four temples.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Rāmeśvara: Los Angeles, New York, maybe Toronto, San Francisco, Dallas, that's all. Ten lakhs right there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every month.
Prabhupāda: So what is the actual expenditure?
Paramahaṁsa: Many devotees wish... Now they have become devotees and have had so much bad training, they wish that they could have gone to Gurukula so they would not be so mistrained.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, one boy in Sydney, he has been a devotee for a few years, three or four years, but now he has fallen away because of lusty association, I suppose, or bad association. So is this unwilling or willing, because he has become attracted to women again?
Prabhupāda: That is one of the defects, our society, that women are there, and one falls victim of these women. And it is not possible to keep the society strictly for men. That is also not possible. But actually no woman should live in the temple. That is the...
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Christians have one place for the women and another place for the men. But we find the women can't organize themselves very well, so it is difficult to organize something like that also.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, if we do not give up lusty desires, either we keep separately or together they fall down in the... All these nuns, they are all complicated, although they live separately. There was a convent school in Calcutta, and it was detected that the head minister was supplying women outside for business. Now one brahmacārīṇi āśrama is started. This means that the authority of this āśrama, they supply young women to rich, richer class, and they pay money. Business is going on.
Prabhupāda: So immediately to solve all the problems like this is to start an institution to train four classes of men. Begin it. There is no training, how you can expect if you allow a child to smoke from the very beginning and to commit all kinds of sinful activities, how you can expect a nice gentleman when he is grown up? It is not possible. It is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But somebody may not be induced to come and join. But if you train him from the very beginning, then it is possible. Just like we have got our training school, Gurukula, in Dallas, Texas. So from the very beginning, three years, four years, five years old, children they are being trained up. It is not that cent percent men will be trained up spiritually. But even a small percentage ideal men there are in the society, at least people will think, "Oh, here is ideal." But there is no such facility. We are training, sometimes people laugh, "What is this nonsense?" They criticize.
Prabhupāda: Then he is very nice. Then you are friend.
Dr. Gerson: Another thing I would like to do is go to Gurukula and test the children and show what NBC did was very false and unfair.
Jayatīrtha: On television they did a very bad story on Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they're, they cheater. He wants to cheat and get some money. That's all. Because the whole so-called human society is combination of cheater and cheated. So anyone who is acting without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is a cheater. And anyone who is thinking himself advanced without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is cheated. This is the basic principle. I mean Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness, so when we speak of Kṛṣṇa-God. Without God consciousness, everyone is cheated. And because everyone is cheated, there must be cheater. This is correlative term. If I say, "I am cheated," that means there is a cheater. And if there is a cheater there must be cheated. This is relative term.
Dr. Gerson: NBC did an unfair story on Gurukula. They cheated. And I would like to undo that. I would like to go and show that the school is very good.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is very kind of you, but there have been so many attempts to cut down this movement, but they are cheated. They could not do so.
Dr. Gerson: May I try to help?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your real business. In India also, they are still making so much propaganda. They are making propaganda that "These American devotees, they are CIA." (laughter) This propaganda is very strong in India, making the people against these American boys who are preaching. So this is going on. They financed one film, "Hare Krishna." That is spite against us. But still, those who are sincere, they are praising, "Yes, this is a real."
Prabhupāda: Yes, you will find defects. But if the devotees stick to Kṛṣṇa consciousness principle, these defects will soon become finished.
Revatīnandana: One thing specifically he wants to do in order to counteract this propaganda against the Gurukula which had serious impact, he wants to do some of this testing with the children in a way that is specifically done with children to show that these children are actually happy and they're developing nicely. He wanted to know if that would be permissable for him to do some testing at the Gurukula with the children.
Prabhupāda: That depends on your management, how you are raising the children. If they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it is all right. So far bodily defects, you might find. But we are denying from the very beginning, "I am not this body." So by finding some bodily defects how you will decide about the spirit? Because spirit is not this body. You cannot conclude that because there are some bodily defects, therefore he has got spiritual defect. That is not right conclusion. The same example: "because there are some dirty things in the Ganges, the Ganges is no more good." That conclusion is wrong.
Dr. Gerson: There has been a lot of bad propaganda that the children at Gurukula are unhappy and that they're not developing normally as children or human beings, and I would like to overcome that propaganda by showing that they are.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that the managers of the Gurukula, they should take care of. But if they follow the instruction which I have given for conducting Gurukula, then there is no question of... What is the general defect they are finding out?
Bahulāśva: No, they are not finding... They are just making up these defects, Prabhupāda?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing they say is that the parents are not allowing the children the freedom to choose whether they want to be trained in this way or not. They are forcing the children to be trained in a very limited view, only Kṛṣṇa.
Bahulāśva: And they say that by repetitive chanting...
Prabhupāda: That means they do not know Kṛṣṇa means everything. That they do not know.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Europe is always cold.
Jayatīrtha: Always cold. But this palace is in a fairly warm zone. It's got some sort of breeze coming from the Mediterranean Sea, I think. Anyway, it keeps it a little warmer than most places. And it does not snow very much during the winter, they say. Besides the palace, there are some other buildings also. One place they are going to use for a gośāla, and one place for a Gurukula. And then several householder houses.
Prabhupāda: And the land for farming?
Jayatīrtha: Yes, at least half the land is good for farming. It's level and there's a good water supply.
Prabhupāda: There is some river?
Jayatīrtha: No, there's no river, but there's a...
Prabhupāda: Waterfall?
Jayatīrtha: ...pond there.
Prabhupāda: Oh. (break)
Jayatīrtha: ...fifty devotees in Paris now. So that temple there is very crowded. Impossible.
Prabhupāda: So, why not some of them moved?
Prabhupāda: So is there any news of the land?
Nitāi: No word. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa has not been there in Vṛndāvana. He has been in Bombay.
Prabhupāda: No, it was entrusted to Praṇava.
Nitāi: Oh, Praṇava has not said anything, sent any word with me. Viśvambhara is very enthusiastic for starting the Gurukula there. He has said that he can give more than a lakh in order to build a building. Previously he promised a lakh but he said that there is more money he can continually give for supporting the Gurukula there.
Prabhupāda: So I have sent news to Praṇava to complete the negotiation, and he has done nothing?
Nitāi: I don't know whether he has done or not.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...doctor?
Nitāi: The doctor is staying there. He is... (break) ...for a few days and stays, and then he goes for a few days. Then he comes. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...Pradyumna is doing?
Nitāi: Pradyumna has gone to Māyāpur to help train the Sastris.
Prabhupāda: He speaks Sanskrit also?
Nitāi: Yes. Speaks it. He lectures in Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's good.
Nitāi: While he was in Vṛndāvana, we were taking daily a class with him in Bhagavad-gītā. We would read Viśvanātha Cakravartī's commentary.
Prabhupāda: Where is our car? (break)
Brahmānanda: ...they would help us acquire land for a Gurukula. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...sent Praṇava, how is that there is no news about the land? (end)
Prabhupāda: Jayatīrtha, you can come here. If required, you will reply. What is that?
Jayatīrtha: This is the article that Mrs. Wax has written, and it was published in Harper's. It's one of the big national magazines. It's about Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Jayatīrtha: It's nicely written.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Jayatīrtha: It's called "Raise Your Hand if You're an Eternal Spirit Soul."
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Mrs. Wax: Thank you. It's an honor to be here. Because I wrote the article about Gurukula, I'm interested in what has happened there. I was there last summer. Do you have plans for other schools? And what is happening with Gurukula now? Is it standing?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Jayatīrtha: She wants to know what our plan is for Gurukula, whether we want to start other Gurukulas in other places... (child noises)
Prabhupāda: (Aside:) Hmm, this child... So you can explain what is the idea of Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: We want to raise first-class man. Try to understand. The present society, we are creating fourth-class men. Therefore we are not in very happy condition. We want to raise the fourth-class man to first-class man. First-class man means with qualification who can control the mind, control the senses, always very cleansed and truthful, very simple, full of all kinds of knowledge, practical application in life, then to have full knowledge of God, these are the characteristics of first-class man. So at the present moment everyone is a fourth-class man. So we want to get some first-class men. That is required. Because there is no idea, first-class man, therefore people are becoming full of crimes. You have seen the article in the Time? "Crime, Why and What to Do?" That is the concern of the materialistic society. So we are trying to raise a group of men who will be ideal. Just like our devotees. You will find their characters different from all others, at least in your country. They do not have illicit sex, they do not eat meat, they do not have any intoxication, even smoking or taking tea, they do not indulge in gambling, they chant holy name of God, lead very simple life. So we are creating first-class men. There is need. It is not that everyone will become first-class man, but at least a section of man must be first-class so that others can see that what is the ideal character of man. So this Gurukula means from the childhood age we are training them so that in future it will be easier. That is the purpose of Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: This is first-class. Now śamo damaḥ... Śamaḥ means controlling the mind, mind is always peaceful. You can train. Then controlling the senses. Then truthful. Then full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life. These are the qualification of first-class man. Everything is there. If you train a boy to become first-class man, he can become first-class man. If you don't train, then he will become a debauch, criminal, disturbing. So we are training in the Gurukula to become first-class men. This is our aim. Unless in the society an ideal first-class man, then how one will become, or follow the ideal? There is no ideal. Now what is the idea of first-class man now? Can I ask you? What is your idea of first-class man? Whom do you call first-class man?
Prabhupāda: That is the defect. We have no idea who is first-class man. Everyone is drunkard, everyone smoker, everyone is gambler, everyone is illicit sex, where is first-class man? So in the absence of first-class man there must be criminals. Aiye. So there is a need of first-class men, first-class men and second-class men. Third-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, they are automatically there. So at the present moment fourth-class, fifth-class men. Third-class is also very scarcely found, and there is no question of first-class, second-class. But as in the full body we require brain, we require arm, we require belly, we require leg... Everything is required for different purposes of work. But at the present moment there is no place for the first-class men. When we ask our students that "You become free from all these four classes of sinful activity: no illicit sex, no meat-eating," people laugh: "Oh, why you are asking?" They do not know what is the ideal man. They think, "Illicit sex, what is wrong there? Meat-eating, what is wrong there?" They do not know what is right and wrong. Therefore all fourth-class men. They cannot understand even what is the value of these things. So you cannot be happy with fourth-class men. At least there must be a section, first-class men. That we are trying to create, a first-class man from this Gurukula.
Mrs. Wax: The ten-year-old boys who left Gurukula and went to Vṛndāvana and then went to Māyāpur, what will they...? They will be trained in the divisions there and come back?
Prabhupāda: No, that is the ideal, mind completely controlled, senses completely controlled, truthful and simple life. In this way they will be trained up gradually. And we have got one hundred books like that. If they read all these books and if they are trained up in their character, then they will be, in future, first-class men.
Mrs. Wax: Would you comment on the current political situation in India, what's happening right now?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that will happen everywhere because there is no first-class man.
Mrs. Wax: So it doesn't matter if Nārāyaṇa is successful?
Prabhupāda: No.
Mrs. Wax: None of them are first-class people is what you're saying.
Prabhupāda: They are politician. That also... All of them are fourth-class men. The fighting is between two section of fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class man. Although the Bhagavad-gītā is there, they do not know, neither do they care. Just like I was telling. When we propose that "No illicit sex, no meat eating," they laugh, "Hah! What is that?" But when they are put into trouble they say, "What to do?" When there is crime they say, "What to do?" They do not know how to tackle the situation because they are all third-class, fourth-class men. They do not know. They become disappointed.
Guest: ...here in America they are fighting to become independent. And also abortion. They are fighting that the abortion should be there. Now this your message, is conveyed through the reporters and I would like the reporter to assess the reaction from the masses here, whether Gurukula is sponsoring for the women liberation and equal rights...
Prabhupāda: No, no, you are asking solution of the question who is already in darkness. You should take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā. You are asking women who are supposed to be dependent, and you are asking question from them. To answer will not be from them. The answer, the standard answer, you have to take from the book of knowledge, Bhagavad-gītā. Then the answer will be perfect.
Jayatīrtha: But if the people complain that we send our children to Gurukula at five, but their children they kill before they have a chance to be born. And they say that we are inhuman.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Jayatīrtha: The people in general, they say that we are inhuman because we send our children at five to Gurukula. But they do not think that they are killing their own children before they have a chance to be born.
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore we say there is no first-class men to guide. They are killing child within the womb. They are not given chance to come out and see the light. And we are putting children at five, so we are criminal. They are denying the right of birth. So these things are happening because there is no first-class brain.
Prabhupāda: This is psychology. If woman is chaste, even though she is not very beautiful, she will be liked by the husband. So train them in that way: very chaste, faithful wife and knows how to cook very nicely. Other qualification, even they haven't, that's all right. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness is being trained up. Then there will be no difficulty. And boys should be first-class man. Then our Gurukula will be successful. What do you think? Am I right?
Jayatīrtha: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: Anything objectionable?
Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were saying that in our society the women shouldn't cook privately for their husbands.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Satsvarūpa: You were saying that everyone should take the Deity's prasādam. But it sounds like the women are being trained to cook, so...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no. The thing is that Deity or at home, she must be very first-class cook. That is wanted. That is according to convenience. If possible, they can take prasādam in the temple. If not possible, they must cook. But she must be first-class cook. That is wanted, either in the temple or outside. In India still, 80%, 90%, they are very happy in their family life, never mind one is poor or rich, because the wife knows these three things: to remain chaste and faithful to the husband, and she knows how to cook nicely. (pause) And women and men should live separately. That is also essential. Butter and fire must be kept apart. Otherwise the butter will melt. You cannot stop it.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...New Vrindaban... article... last year...(Bengali)
Lalitā: (Bengali) ...Gurudeva's remarks about their remarks. And of his...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: August 24th and 34th issue of (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) "Śrīla Prabhupāda instructs a young American student in Sanskrit at the Gurukula." (Bengali) This is my miracle.
Lalitā: You are changing actually, transforming.
(Bengali) ....Rajneesh... (Bengali) She has to go to the temple, take the prasāda, serve to... (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...Kartik Bose... (Bengali) ...Kartik Bose's laboratory... (Bengali) ...Gauḍīya Maṭha... (Bengali)
Lalitā: (Bengali) ...Māyāpur... (Bengali) ...Vṛndāvana... (Bengali) ...Hare Kṛṣṇa mandir... (Bengali) ...Guru Mahārāja... (Bengali) They are so impressed, the way they are putting the śaṇkha and then, you know, ārati... (Bengali) The same time the door opens and the same time the śaṇkha. (Bengali) Sincere, sincere devotee.
Prabhupāda: Sincere devotee. (Bengali) At least... (Bengali) ...hundred men come... (Bengali) They have nothing to do with the
politics.
Prabhupāda: How you'll do? You say you have no money. How you'll do it? Whole money is going to the stomach. All ghee, all money, everything. And becoming sick and sleepy. Whole day and night sleep. I do not know when it will be finished. What is the use of starting another Gurukula? Whatever you have taken, that is not yet finished. All savvy(?). And your report is, "Everything is all right." Everything is all right except nothing is finished. So I do not know how to do. There was shops made, and why it is closed again?
Dhanañjaya: Because Mr. Sharapi(?) came.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let him go to the court. We shall see.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Brahmānanda, you just take an idea. We shall construct Gurukula in this pattern.
Brahmānanda: This building here, double story.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Exactly. Double or three-storied.
Kartikeya: Most simple type.
Prabhupāda: Very simple type, very nice. Just get a sketch with your work. This will be done like that.
Brahmānanda: I'll ask Bhārgava. He has his camera. He can take photographs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And downstairs, all shops. Only the roadside. Other side...
Brahmānanda: Oh, no. That's the courtyard, and then other side, a building. (break)
Bhavānanda: ...at the Gurukula best thing is outdoors classes. As soon as they're in rooms it gets too hot.
Prabhupāda: As far as possible, outdoors.
Bhavānanda: Best place in Māyāpur is on the verandas of the big building. It's perfect.
Prabhupāda: That is very nice.
Prof. Olivier: Thank you very much. Might I apropos of that just say here that we have here a department, Science of Religion. Then we have a department of Christian Theology. We have now started a department of Islamic Studies, which will concentrate more on the theological aspects as we go along. And then, if we can find the right guru, we can start a gurukula, a department of Hindu Studies or Hinduism. And Mr. Chotari and various other members of the local community here are assisting us to find the right spiritual leader. As far as Hindu studies are concerned, we give a course here in Sanskrit at the university.
Prabhupāda: You have seen our books?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why they should charge for education? They'll not cut the tree. The dry branches or dead tree, they'll take the wood for utilization.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk down this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) ...parents who would give up their children to gurukula, they would never see them for about ten years?
Prabhupāda: Never see. Ten years? Twenty-five years. They may go and see, give some gifts to the guru.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Western countries they criticize our gurukula that "This is inhuman, people sending their children away at such an early age, not seeing them."
Prabhupāda: And to kill, that is very human. Rascal. Kick them upon their face. You rascal, you are talking of morality, rascal, you go to hell. Your place is hell. "Devil citing scripture." You are not... You are so shameless that you do not be ashamed to speak like that. You are so shameless. Your civilization is so shameless. You are killing child in the womb, and you are talking "inhumanity." Just see. We have to deal with such fools and rascals.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That new Gurukula picture that they had sent you in Illinois near Chicago? They have taken that.
Brahmānanda: It's a military school.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A military school.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Military school or military barracks?
Brahmānanda: No, a military school.
Prabhupāda: What is the price?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: 420,000...?
Brahmānanda: Four fifty.
Prabhupāda: So they have paid?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are going to pay 150,000 in January. It looks perfect for Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: How far? It is in Chicago?
Brahmānanda: It's about, I think, an hour and a half from Chicago by car.
Prabhupāda: Oh. It is a village.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...the description?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: There are many buildings?
Brahmānanda: Oh, there's about nine buildings. There's a main administration building and classroom building. There is two new buildings. One is a dining hall that seats two hundred.
Prabhupāda: (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: The first cultural education is how to teach the small children to become purified, brahmacārī.
Dr. Patel: In ancient times it was done by association in gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is required, gurukula. We are starting, therefore, gurukulas. And it is becoming...
Dr. Patel: Gurukula. Kula of guru.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmacari gurukule vasan danto guror hitam. This is the beginning. A brahmacārī should live in the aśrama of guru, danta, self-controlled, and only for the benefit of guru, not for anyone's benefit. Brahmacārī guru... They'll go, collect alms, and everything should be delivered to guru.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...infection and disinfection also, but you don't take to disinfection. That is our... Here is disinfection, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Who is going to take it? They will prefer to be infected. (break) ...respectable person will send their children to gurukula. They don't want. I tried in the beginning. It was a failure. They don't want. Just like Prahlāda and Hiraṇyakaśipu. What is the trouble? The Prahlāda was devotee, and his father did not like him, that "Why you should be devotee? You become politician, diplomat." That is the difficulty, that nowadays everyone is Hiraṇyakaśipu, and he wants that his son should be diplomat, politician, black market and... What is the use of this Prahlāda? That is going on, especially in India. (break) Hiraṇyakaśipu, he'll never like to see his son Prahlāda. And our system is to make Prahlāda. So nobody will like it.
Brahmānanda: They had a gurukula here at Hare Kṛṣṇa Land. Isn't it? And many of the children of the tenants were coming, and they were wearing tilaka. And then they would go home and tell their parents not to eat meat and so on, and the parents became very angry and took their children back. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...Hiraṇyakaśipu education, then it is filled up immediately. And if you introduce Prahlāda education-vacant. (break) Hm? (laughs) (break) ...meet me at night, all you. (break) Who are living?
Girirāja: Our men? One room is for the school, and Yaśomat...
Indian man (4): School, gurukula school.
Girirāja: The children. Then Yaśomatīnandana's wife was staying there, and Bilvamaṅgala and his wife used to stay there.
Prabhupāda: Who?
Girirāja: One Bilvamaṅgala and his wife used to stay there. So they've left. And Nayanābhirāma and his wife used to stay there and they have left. So actually it could be emptied.
Prabhupāda: But I saw yesterday someone living there.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? This boy wants to go in gurukula school.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Jayapataka: In your prayer we say, pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe. But now don't you think we could say "viśva"? (Prabhupāda chuckles) I think that there's no place... You've not only covered Western world but practically whole world.
Prabhupāda: I say that because my Guru Mahārāja appointed me for that purpose.
Akṣayānanda: If everything was void, then there would be no hope for living. So might as well die.
Prabhupāda: No. By combination, permutation, you create, and if you don't want it, then avoid this combination. (break) Even in four o'clock time, visiting, if he comes at four o'clock, you let him come in. (break) ...Gurukula we require teachers for teaching the small children. So our, these girls, they cannot take this charge of teaching?
Akṣayānanda: Yes, one is already teaching now. One is already teaching children now, one girl.
Prabhupāda: Who is he?
Akṣayānanda: Her name is Ruth. She's English. Every afternoon she teaches the children.
Prabhupāda: Indian?
Akṣayānanda: No, English.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's also one in Bombay. She used to be a public school teacher in England. After the school is open she can come over here. And there's one in Māyāpur, but she's teaching in Māyāpur.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, other girls, they can take up this.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of vihāya? (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: We tolerate everything. (more Hindi) The whole civilization, the modern civilization, is wholly at fault. Unfortunate. And that is the schools we are sending our children to, and these are the public schools.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi about the Gurukula in Vṛndāvana)
Dr. Patel: They're getting (indistinct) of knowledge, after all they will (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: We are opening gurukula, but who will give? A gentleman will not give. Hare Kṛṣṇa! (man stops and Patel introduces him)
Dr. Patel: He's a great scholar and poet of Gujarati literature, and he comes from the same place where the... Bet, he's from Bet, Dvaraka-bet, where all those temples are.
Prabhupāda: He's a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Very fine. After the building of this completely as per plan...
Saurabha: Yes. And then we still have area for gurukula also. Another hundred rooms.
Dr. Patel: Most people (indistinct) (break)
Prabhupāda: Yesterday... Last night, I explained at the Birla house that you have to change only your care of. Now we are care of under material energy, and you have to transfer your under care of spiritual energy. They appreciated.
Dr. Patel: They are under the care of great māyā, mah-māyā.
Prabhupāda: Everyone...
Dr. Patel: ...is sitting in the building, of all the Birlas.
Prabhupāda: Not Birlas, everyone. (laughing)
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Oh, we shall invest.
Jayapatāka: The gurukula is living on this side. And they're having classes in this original house. (break) (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Bidi.
Jayapatāka: Many people want to open up a shop. They'll pay for the...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...tulasī...
Jayapatāka: Our land.
Prabhupāda: So why not employ one man to manfacture tulasī beads? Yes. There are many experts.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have to live here as devotee?
Jayapatāka: No.
Prabhupāda: No, let them manufacture. That will make him devotee.
Prabhupāda: So why not do? (break)...ing in their health?
Sudāmā: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. (Gurukula kīrtana party, chanting, meets Prabhupāda)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...like they are doing in so many other places?
Prabhupāda: You spend it.
Jayapatāka: Just like the Tirupati temple. They have got crores and crores of rupees in the bank, so government has borrowed twenty crores of rupees for improving the worship (?) If we spend the money as soon as it's made, then they won't take.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the point.
Prabhupāda: No.
Madhudviṣa: ...Bhāgavatam you say that we should greet the sun with the verse from Gāyatrī mantra. Does that means we should wait for sunrise to say our Gāyatrī? Just as the sun is rising, we should say the Gāyatrī.
Prabhupāda: No. Early in the morning. (Gurukula boys in background)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we take bath before sunrise and put on tilaka. Should the mantra be said at that time, after putting on tilaka? Or should we wait and then say it...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...when the sun rises? After tilaka?
Prabhupāda: No, no, tilaka should be done after bathing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And then when should the Gāyatrī be said? Right after...
Prabhupāda: After tilaka. Gāyatrī mantra is description of the sun. (break) ...our land?
Bhavānanda: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Gurukula boys: Hare Kṛṣṇa!
Prabhupāda: Jaya. Brahmacārīs.
Jayapatāka: (break) Not so many gosas come for prasādam. (break—to room conversation)
Devotee (1): "...Sanat Kumāras were going to Vaikuṇṭha to visit Lord Viṣṇu. They were stopped at the door by the doorkeepers, Jaya and Vijaya. But specifically, the Supreme Lord cannot be seen by ordinary eyes. But He now became visible to the eyesight of the Kumāras. Another significant word is samādhi-vākyam. Meditators who are very fortunate see the Viṣṇu form of the Lord within their hearts by following the yoga process. But to see Him eye to eye is a different matter. It is only possible for pure devotees. The Kumāras therefore..." (break)
Bhavānanda: ...aratika?
Prabhupāda: No. No. That...
Bhavānanda: They have kīrtanas...
Prabhupāda: Going on.
Prabhupāda: No, how they can? They cannot feed them.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were speaking this morning, Bhavānanda Mahārāja and myself that, we were wondering if we could make like... You know, so many people come here to eat prasādam. On the weekends, at least two to three thousand people come. So we were wondering whether it would be proper to make some kind of propaganda that "If anyone wants to enroll their children here, their young boys in our gurukula, that they can..."
Prabhupāda: So a similar counterpart leaflet you should, that "International Society for Krishna Consciousness, world organization, established by His Divine Grace, and anyone can come here and take foodstuff. We have got arrangement," like this. In suitable words you write and issue another pamphlet.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bengali.
Prabhupāda: In Bengali and in English. Which may not touch there, but we write in our own way that "By the order of his guru he went to America. Then he..." That's a fact. What is the fact, that should be written. Give the list of the books and so on, so on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not that God is not offering him sweetmeats, but the rascal won't eat them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has got such a body that he does not relish sweetmeat.
Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! Haribol!
Kāśirāma: Śrīla Prabhupāda, why do we have this rascal propensity?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Kāśirāma: Why do we have this rascal propensity?
Prabhupāda: Because you are rascal. That is the only reason. Because you are rascal.
Gurukula boys: Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda! (end)
Prabhupāda: That's nice. Bengali (break)
Jayapatākā: The Gurukula teachers had one question, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jayapatākā: At one time, you had instructed that all the children should attend the main class. They say that some of the very small children have trouble to keep their attention...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Not small...
Jayapatākā: So they found that if they attend a separate...
Prabhupāda: It is common sense. Also attend many child in the lap of his mother. You see? He should also...?
Jayapatākā: Yeah, they find those seven-, eight-year-old, they attend better a small, private reading.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. But one thing is that if they can attend, even by hearing the Vedic mantras they'll be benefited. Even they.... Therefore I give stress on chanting the mantra, so that if one cannot chant and can under.... Simply by hearing, he'll be benefited. (break) Hm.
Reporter (6): Will you be opening certain schools in India on gurukula pattern?
Prabhupāda: Yes, we are trying, but the difficulty, India, is that they are very, very neglectful.
Reporter (6): Is the government discouraging...
Prabhupāda: There is no question of government or.... The government is people's men. So if you are, we are ourselves fools and rascals, the government will also be a set of fools and rascals. And if you are intelligent, the government will be intelligent, because now it is democracy. You select some man. So don't blame government. You are government. If you are fools the government are fools. If you are intelligent the government is intelligent. It is up to you to change; then everything will be all right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only one, many.
Reporter (8): What else do you have over there besides gurukula schools and things?
Prabhupāda: We produce our own milk. In New Vrindaban we are producing.... You are Nava Bharata Times? You are, any of you, Nava Bharata Times? Is there any representative, Nava...? No. Your representative went to New Vrindaban, and he published in the November 1974, I think.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, '74.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they published one big article, Nava Bharata Time, and the heading was, (Hindi). This was the heading. Actually they gave the photograph of our Deity and activities, everything. You can find out November issue of Nava Bharata in 1974.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are.... In logic there are two causes: immediate cause and remote cause. So remote cause is taken into consideration.
Dr. Patel: The important cause is the Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: That Vijaya Datta(?) is interested for gurukula.
Girirāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Why not construct a big building for gurukula here? The students will be trained up to come here and sporting, having nice bath and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and build up their character. And in Bombay you will get many children, because there are so many rich men. They are not so much concerned to make their children technologist. If they get good education and character, they will give. Technologists they can purchase. Birla, they are not going to be technologist. They purchase technologist. I have seen in many respectable Marwari house. They don't send their children to school. They don't send.
Prabhupāda: If our gurukula children comes here they can have very good sporting. And this idea I have given you?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Remain healthy.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Twice a day.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Twice a day can come, take bath and enjoy sporting life and then chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, take good prasādam. That's all. Why they should waste their time in technology to become a coolie?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Concerning the gurukula system, after a child attains a certain age...
Prabhupāda: No age. As soon as he is able to walk, he can be admitted. What is the wrong there? If he comes to the sea and takes bath and jumps, it doesn't require any age. Any four-year, five-year-old child can do that.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When he becomes, say, twenty years old, though, when he becomes older...
Prabhupāda: First of all begin. Then we shall think of old. But.... At least when he is older, he will not become a nonsense. That.... We want to save him from becoming a nonsense. That is our duty. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Brahmacārī gurukule vasan dāntaḥ. When the brahmacārī is residing in gurukula, he must be trained up how to control senses. That is the first education. People are spoiled because they are not trained up to become controller. That is the defect of the modern age. And when one is unable to control senses, he will do all nonsense.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vṛndāvana the gurukula children went to the Yamunā for two days. Even though it was a forty-five minute walk one way, they enjoyed it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they'll enjoy.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It was a very nice procession.
Prabhupāda: Very good health.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And they're doing it every day now.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...intelligence and kṣatriya's executive power and vaiśya's productive capacity and śūdra's labor. This combined together makes the whole society perfect.
Prabhupāda: Let them organize that.
Rāmeśvara: Jagadīśa was telling me that there are some boys who are donating seventy-five acres of farmland about four hours from Los Angeles. It is the best farmland in California. So he wants to develop this, because they have given it to him, specifically to make a farm and eventually to have the children of Gurukula live there. So perhaps we could invite Yamunā.
Prabhupāda: As soon as you make Gurukula, government immediately stops.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stopped. That's the same (indistinct). The government can't raise objection. Better to keep it real small. Children are learning, then they are sent to India when they're eight or ten. The children here are doing very nicely.
Devotee: The children here are doing as nicely as in Dallas, I've seen.
Prabhupāda: Yes, small groups, small group.
Prabhupāda: Hmm? No, I do not wish to interfere. You manage now. I want to see that you are managing without my interference. Now practically I want to concentrate more, or absolutely I want to do that. But sometimes this mismanagement gives me too much anxiety. I do not wish to see that somehow or other we have built up a nice institution, on account of lack of management it may be hampered. That is my only anxiety. Now what is the position of the Gurukula in Texas? Our Gurukula, I have repeatedly said that we want simply to know English nicely—English is international language—and Sanskrit just to read and understand our literature. But we don't find any progress in that way.
Prabhupāda: That can be...
Jagadīśa: One thing, if I had not been tied up in Dallas with Gurukula, I could have spent more time in Detroit, and I think that would have helped the situation. Because he was alone, working alone...
Prabhupāda: Now one thing is, that he has given service for the benefit of the society. Very tangible service. He can be in charge of book distribution.
Jagadīśa: Mādhavānanda.
Hari-śauri: Yes, that would be good, if they were co-managers or something like that.
Jagadīśa: Govardhana president?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? You should recognize his service. He induced persons to do some.... That you cannot neglect. (break) Paper men coming?
Prof. O'Connell: Don't you have a gurukula in Texas?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. O'Connell: Is there any chance of having a gurukula in Canada?
Prabhupāda: Why not? We can...
Prof. O'Connell: Nice city.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukula means to teach them a way of life, that's all. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dānta, how to control senses, the first business. Dānta. Śānta dānta, peaceful and controlling senses.
Prof. O'Connell: Swamiji, if somebody is in the movement for several years and feels that he's not making progress and leaves, is he looked upon as a sinner or enemy? How do the devotees feel about persons like that?
Prabhupāda: Not like.... Just like in college, school, some student making rapid progress, some of them are a little slow. That does not mean that he should he rejected. He should be given chance. But if he follows the regulative principles, there is no chance of falling down. The regulative principle is that you refrain from these activities: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That will make him perfect. Very easy. We don't say no sex; we say illicit sex.
Prabhupāda: The real education is life. Gurukula means it is a way of life training. It is said that brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānta. This is the way of life: how to learn controlling the senses. Nowadays we have got school, colleges, universities, but this method is not there, how to become dānta. The method is different, that "You can do whatever you like; you simply attend class." That is not the way of life. This is tapasya.
- tapasā brahmacaryeṇa
- śamena ca damena ca
- tyāgena satya-śaucābhyāṁ
- yamena niyamena vā
- (SB 6.1.13)
- This is tapasya. This can be done.
Prabhupāda: Where is your son?
Devotee (2): He is at Pennsylvāṇīa, the Gurukula for now.
Prabhupāda: Your wife?
Devotee (2): She is here, she wanted to see you.
Prabhupāda: Yes?
Devotee (2): She can come in? She can come in for a minute, she has the baby with her.
Prabhupāda: All right, let her in.
Devotee (2): This is made with wheat from the farm.
Pradyumna: He's on Pennsylvāṇīa farm, with Paramananda.
Prabhupāda: Paramananda is there?
Devotee (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Dress? Dress is not important. Practically, as sannyāsī, brahmacārī, we dress with saffron cloth, but sometimes you do not like, but we have to do business with you; therefore we change. What can be done? "Necessity has no law."
Janice Johnson: I'm also interested in... You all have moved your school out of Texas. Is that correct?
Prabhupāda: Gurukula school, yes.
Janice Johnson: Why was that done?
Prabhupāda: Why? Gurukula school? We are training children from the very beginning of life to understand spiritual importance of life.
Hari-śauri: She's wondering why we moved from Texas.
Prabhupāda: We have... No, we have got there.
Hari-śauri: In a lot of big cities that's a major problem now. They can't get any teachers to teach there because the children are so violent and uncontrollable that the teachers are just too scared to work there.
Prabhupāda: In our Gurukula we'll improve. But the parents do not want that their children should be religious, sādhu.
Rāmeśvara: In these schools, the children are given drugs by their schoolmates. Even at an early age, six, twelve years old, ten years old, they are smoking cigarettes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only cigarettes, marijuana also.
Rāmeśvara: And all types of drugs.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I wanted to show you this banner closely, Prabhupāda, that we have a big banner, this is permanently hanging outside our building. You'll see it shows a picture of a devotee dancing with "Hare Kṛṣṇa" over it. See? Very attractive, people can see it. (break) "Founder-Ācārya His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founded 1966." (end)
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is (why) our gurukula is there. How these children are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, (indistinct), how they are learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are doing the same thing, offering obeisances to the Deities, taking prasādam, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. In the same way as his father is doing. So automatically he's being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Good association, that is required. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvidaḥ. We are keeping this house for association of devotees so that automatically they become Kṛṣṇa conscious by association. The most unfortunate position is that there is no education about future life, or the perfection of life. The education is the animal education: the animal (is) eating, we are eating. If we are eating on table, or nice place, nice chair, then we think we are advanced. But the business is the eating.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Future hope.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Therefore I wanted to organize the Gurukula very nicely. We have no objection. Let them produce hundreds of children.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that your Guru Mahārāja said...
Prabhupāda: "If I could produce Kṛṣṇa conscious children, I am prepared to produce hundreds of children." What is the use of producing children like cats and dogs? Produce children like Prahlāda Mahārāja. The whole world will be benefited. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca. (break) Progeny, that is not condemned. Why it should be condemned? Let there be pregnancy, but Kṛṣṇa conscious. That, our Pradyumna's son, these, all children.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Aniruddha.
Prabhupāda: Very nice. They should be trained up properly. Special care should be taken. That is the idea of my Guru Mahārāja, a Gurukula. Gurukula, we are not going to make some big, big scholars. We don't require scholars. We require ideal men by character, by behavior, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not by studying grammar. There are many grammarians. Let them study our books nicely, English, little Sanskrit, that's all. Gurukula organize like that. We don't want big, big scholars. Unnecessarily. There are so many scholars in the universities, drinking and woman-hunting, that's all. In the universities, I know, to get the degree, pass the examination, the girls have to adopt prostitution with the teachers, I know that.
Rāmeśvara: Gurukula. She's asking if you could tell her about the system of education you have established in America.
Prabhupāda: That you can see, what education I have given to my disciples. The first education is that they must be free from all sinful activities. That is the first education. According to the Vedic instruction, a man is supposed to be educated, even from material point of view, a man is supposed to be educated when he sees every woman as mother.
Rāmeśvara: She's referring to now the system that we have for our children, Gurukula. So what's the question?
Interviewer: My question is because they are receiving this education, physical and spiritual education so that they will be free of corruption and sin, they might still, even with this education, they still might not be intelligent, what you consider intelligent people. How, you know... Is it more likely that they will be what you would term intelligent, having been educated in this system?
Prabhupāda: No, there are different types of education. Just like in the material world. There is education for medical man. There is education for engineer. There is education for so many other departments. Similarly, there is education how to make one man spiritual. So we are going to give education how to become spiritually advanced. That is our purpose.
Rāmeśvara: Spiritually advanced, that is our purpose. No, her question was whether all the people that go to our Gurukula will become spiritually advanced.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly. That is Gurukula education.
Rāmeśvara: Even though some are born with more intelligence and some are born with less intelligence.
Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. Average intelligence will do.
Interviewer: Well, then conceivably it seems that almost the great majority of society would adhere to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Rāmeśvara: So then, since it doesn't matter whether less intelligent, small intelligent, if they go to Gurukula, they can become spiritually advanced.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because spiritually everyone is free from material bondage. So materially we find one is more intelligent, one is less intelligent, but spiritually everyone can be equally intelligent.
Rāmeśvara: So what about the common man? If he accepts the Gurukula system he can also be spiritually advanced?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, anyone, anyone.
Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: We discussed Jagadīśa Prabhu's request to primarily attend his engagement with Gurukula, and we also discussed Satsvarūpa Gosvāmī's desire to attend primarily Library Party.
Prabhupāda: It is good proposal.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: We discussed various difficulties that have been happening in Australia, and that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa should go there and help for..., just for visit, just to help. And then they will report to you.
Prabhupāda: What is Iran's business going on? I got some good report from Nandarāṇī that she is in contact with the Shah's daughter, princess. Is that a fact?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, Nandarāṇī Prabhu is doing very well. She's got a Gurukula, a school for the Indian children, they are being well attended. Also Mahārāja, Parivrājakācārya Svāmī, he has been in touch with the Shah's daughter and he's been preaching to them.
Prabhupāda: Shah's son-in-law is interested, I have heard.
Prabhupāda: They have got two daughters.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. They are there, they also attend Gurukula. They have it regularly now.
Bali-mardana: So that reporter was very impressed. He's a very big reporter. He works for the API, the Associated Press. They give their news to papers all over the world, the news.
Prabhupāda: So let him represent properly.
Bali-mardana: Yes. You have given him a very unique interview, I think, with your analogies.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is there. Why they think Eastern, Western, Jewish, and...? We are talking of the human being. That is the misunderstanding going on, that this is Hindu religion, Eastern religion. Kṛṣṇa begins from the word dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Find out this. The rascals are taking Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Dehe, the body, and the inner force of the body, He's beginning His teaching. Where is the question of Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Jewish? Still they are misunderstanding, "This is Hindu."
Gurudāsa: Gurukula.
Jayatīrtha: They have six schools now, other than that. This place in France, they have a school there, this farm, and in Dallas, Los Angeles, Pennsylvania, Māyāpur.
Hari-śauri: Vṛndāvana Gurukula also was started.
George Harrison: There's all kinds of strange things written in those newspapers, Dallas, strange things. Particularly about the little children's school.
Hari-śauri: It's because they don't bother to find out before they write things.
Gurudāsa: Just like they said that the children sleep in the basement. That's because it was in the hot summer. Everyone goes to the basement in the summer in Dallas.
Mukunda: The kids don't feel any difficulty at all sleeping on the floor. Children are naturally austere. It's just after you get to a certain age that conditioning affects you.
Devotee: They say they live without furniture. (laughter)
Gurudāsa: They're prejudiced about those things.
Jayatīrtha: They have to eat with their hands. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: You have got the last copy of Seventh Canto?
Hari-śauri: Seven, Three?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Pradyumna: This was about the brahmacārī in the gurukula, in the school, what a young child should learn to practice.
George Harrison: Yes. But I thought you were saying something about the sound of the two sounds of Kṛṣ and ṇa.
Prabhupāda: Ah, kṛṣṇeti varṇa-dvayī.
Gurudāsa: Ah, yes. "I wish I had ten thousand ears to hear the sweet sound of Kṛṣṇa, and ten thousand tongues to say it."
George Harrison: So this isn't..., I didn't get this one?
Mukunda: Not yet, no. That's latest. It just came out.
George Harrison: Seventh Canto, Part Three.
Hari-śauri: They bring the first two copies to Śrīla Prabhupāda wherever he is. This we got in New York just before we left.
Gurudāsa: It's right off the press.
Prabhupāda: These pictures are made by our boys.
Prabhupāda: Just fix on the light.
Bhagavān: Is now the right time to ask? She has some questions on Gurukula. Is now okay?
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Harikeśa: They haven't come as yet.
Bhagavān: Yogeśvara has just come back from Italy.
Prabhupāda: What is the news, Italy?
Yogeśvara: They've finished the preparation for the printing of the French edition of Kṛṣṇa book and Śrī Upadeśāmṛta and the Italian Bhagavad-gītā, and they should be ready within the next ten days.
Prabhupāda: French language.
Jyotirmāyī: I came to ask you some questions for the Gurukula, because now if I don't ask them today...
Prabhupāda: So Gurukula means, find out that chapter, brahmacārī gurukule.
Hari-śauri: Seven, Two.
Prabhupāda: Vasan dānto guror hitam. The beginning of life is how to become cent percent obedient to guru. That is Gurukula. That training should be given. The whole process is that our life will be successful when we strictly follow guru and Kṛṣṇa. Guru means Kṛṣṇa; Kṛṣṇa means guru. Not Māyāvāda, but guru means one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. So guru is directly God, sākṣād-hari. Sākṣād means directly. So sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas **, in every śāstra it is said the guru is one, Kṛṣṇa. So, it is stated in the śāstra and it is accepted by authorities. Not that it is simply stated. Samasta-śāstrair, uktas. You understand little Sanskrit?
Jyotirmāyī: Some verses from Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Ukta, ukta means "said." And sadbhiḥ, "by great personalities." Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas **, tathā, and "accordingly," tathā means "accordingly," bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ, those who are actually in transcendental platform, they should accept it. So why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva... It does not mean Māyāvādī, that he has become God. But kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya, he is the most confidential servant. He's therefore servant-God. He's God, servant-God. God is master-God. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. So why he has become priya? That is, Kṛṣṇa says personally, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ: (BG 18.69) nobody is dearer than him in the whole world. Why? Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidā... (Bg 18.68). "Who preaches this gospel of Bhagavad-gītā among My devotees." So the guru has got two business. He has to make devotees and teach them the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore he's so dear. Not that he has become God, not Māyāvādī philosophy. He's living entity, but because he acts very confidentially on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's as good as God. This is bhakti. Not the Māyāvādī philosophy that guru has become God. Guru as God, not become. He's servant-God. And Kṛṣṇa is master-God. So the success is that both the Gods, when one is accepted by both the Gods, then his life is success. Guru-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Therefore one has to fix his faith staunchly in the bona fide guru. So if one has got bona fide guru, and if he follows that bona fide guru, then his life is success. This is the process. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair **. So Gurukula means to teach how to become very, very faithful, cent percent faithful, to the bona fide guru. That is Gurukula. So you have to teach like that. By behavior, by life, by action. That is Gurukula. This sum and substance of... Brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānto guror hitam. Where is that?
Prabhupāda: Any other Bhāgavata? Just see. Reference book must be always there. This is the principle of Gurukula. Now from this platform, on this understanding you have to organize.
Jyotirmāyī: You were saying that there are mainly three principles to learn: how to be obedient, how to know, read your books and be self-controlled. So that's what I explained to the teachers, that they should do that.
Prabhupāda: Guru says there are four principles to be followed, they should be taught in that way. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, no intoxication. Guru says that you chant at least sixteen, that should be taught. Risen early, rise early in the morning, that should be taught. So whatever guru says, you have to teach them perfectly, from childhood; then there will be no deviation when they are grown-up.
Jyotirmāyī: We have them chant now down there. When they chant japa, they chant very enthusiastically. So the teacher himself chants...
Prabhupāda: No, no. According to age, according to... But this is the principle. Gurukula means to learn how to become obedient, self-controlled, and act on behalf of guru. This is Gurukula. Not to learn grammar very scholarly, grammarian. No, that is not Gurukula. There are many thousands scholars—who cares for them? Put in the life. That is important. Our movement has drawn the attention of the world on account of life and the knowledge. They are finding the knowledge in the book and they are finding the practical application in the life. That is the important thing. Books there are many, but the books as they are described, they are being followed. That is Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Guror hitam. So, a brahmacārī, a brahmacārī should live in the Gurukula for the following purposes. The first is that he should be trained up how to control the senses. So that, if you teach, any child from the childhood, he'll be trained up. In that case, that female children should be separated.
Jyotirmāyī: I wanted to know also what should we do once they are sixteen, because you said they should be trained in a Gurukula until they are sixteen. So once they are sixteen...
Prabhupāda: Once Sarasvatī said that "We have no sex with woman." (laughter) So, innocent, she does not know. That is, if they are kept separate, they remain innocent. And they are taught that all women should be addressed as mother. Whatever self-control. And female children should be taught how to become faithful to the husband, and to learn the arts of cooking, arts of painting—that should be their subject matter.
Yogeśvara: Can the older boys be trained in a particular kind of devotional service? For example, press work?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everything is devotional. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23), there are varieties. We are not Māyāvādī, impersonalists, finished, all business. It is not like that. So whatever business is going on in our movement, everything should be taught according to the capacity, boys or girls, it doesn't matter. Some department is suitable for the boys, some department are suitable for the girls. In this way, they should be trained up. But everyone should be trained up to give service. That is Gurukula. And brahmacārī, this sex impulse should be controlled. That ruins the whole character. Our big, big sannyāsīs are becoming victimized. So that is the danger. Woman is good, man is good; when they combine together, bad. This is the material world. Both of them are good, but when they combine together, they are bad. This is material world. In the spiritual world, there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore it is always good. Everyone is part and parcel of God.
Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking about that, that because the girls are trained like brahmacārīnis also in the Gurukula, they should be also kept very, very simple, just like the little boys, brahmacārīs.
Prabhupāda: No, our life is simple. We don't want luxury. We don't want luxury, but as we are accustomed in so many ways, as far as possible. But life should be very simple. To increase unnecessary things unnecessarily, that is material life.
Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking in that way, simple clothes, no jewels, just like the boys, simple...
Prabhupāda: Don't say "no." But give a taste for the good, then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no" then he'll, they will rebel. The four "no's," that is very difficult. Still they are breaking. No illicit sex, they are breaking. But if they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be automatically "no." So don't bring many "no's," but give them positive life. Then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," that will be a struggle. This is the psychology.
Bhagavān: Our restrictions? Yes, they are impressed. They sometimes write about the Gurukula that we are treating roughly the children by making them so austere. But every time they show the picture, the children are always happy.
Prabhupāda: They have standardized their happiness on these principles—illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling. That is the standard. And if you deny that, they say, "Oh, it is impossible. These are the primary principles of life." Yes. Such a big man like Rolan(?) said, he said, "Oh, it is impossible." He was a big man, philosopher, very nice gentleman; still, he said "Oh, it is impossible."
Prabhupāda: You follow that, brahmacārī gurukula, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"—Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life, everything is stated there, try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to... Our students are not going to... Our students should be fit for teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biology, chemists, physicists, and mathematician there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that Gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist, don't want that. There are many other educational institutions. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of wasting your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare.
Hari-śauri: Lockers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not possible for us. We welcome. But we must be well organized to utilize these poor souls for becoming first-class devotees. That should be done. Otherwise, sex life and the by-product, that is always troublesome, either you take this way or that way, it is troublesome. If it is not troublesome, why they are killing their own children? To avoid trouble. This is psychology. They want to avoid trouble. But our process is, if you want to avoid trouble, then don't marry, remain brahmacārī. If you cannot, then, all right, have legal wife, get children and raise them very nicely, make them Vaiṣṇavas, take the responsibility. So we are organizing this society, we welcome. Some way or other we shall arrange for shelter. But to take care of the children, to educate them, that will depend on their parents. Now our Pradyumna was complaining that in the Gurukula, his child was not educated to count one, two, three, four. So I have told him that "You educate your child. Let the mother educate in English, and you educate him in Sanskrit." Who can take care? So similarly every father, mother should take care that in future they may not be a batch of unwanted children. We can welcome hundreds and thousands of children. There is no question of economic problem. We know that. But the father, mother must take care at least. Properly trained up, they should be always engaged. That is brahmacārī gurukula. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). From the very beginning they should be trained up. From the body, they should be trained up how to take bath, how to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or some Vedic mantra, go to the temple, offer obeisances, prayer, then take their lunch... In this way, they should be always engaged. Then they'll be trained up. Simple thing. We don't want to train them as big grammarians. No. That is not wanted. That anyone, if he has got some inclination, he can do it personally. There is no harm. General training is that he must be a devotee, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That should be introduced. Otherwise, the gurukula will be... Otherwise Jyotirmayī was suggesting the biology.
Prabhupāda: Vans. (child crying outside) "Prabhupāda?" (laughs)
Bhagavān: We brought the Jagannātha Deity here from Paris for Ratha-yātrā, and He stayed here for eight days and then went back. And when He went back all the Gurukula children, they were all crying and running after the truck.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā (laughs). So... It is natural affection.
Bhagavān: The little boys also, they were crying, little girls.
Prabhupāda: So Ratha-yātrā was functioned here?
Bhagavān: Oh, yes, very big, two hundred devotees here. It was very ecstatic. Nice prasāda and nice procession. When He came, all the cows came up and they were looking. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: The villagers joined?
Bhagavān: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (laughs)
Bhagavān: They are here now. He had his own business and everything, very successful. His children are in the Gurukula and he is doing saṅkīrtana.
Prabhupāda: His wife also?
Bhagavān: She is the secretary. Very nice.
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom they came?
Bhagavān: South of France.
Prabhupāda: South of France.
Hari-śauri: If we had a big farm in the south it would be very nice. In the south of France the weather is always very good.
Prabhupāda: South of France is near Mediterranean. Marseilles is south?
Bhagavān: Marseilles is right on the Mediterranean. We have very big saṅkīrtana there.
Prabhupāda: Marseilles? Oh.
Prabhupāda: They are also chanting.
Nandarāṇī: It is good for them here because they can preach. The guests who come, they are very attracted to these little children who can sing so many wonderful songs and read Sanskrit and preach from these heavy philosophical books that the Iranians cannot even understand. So they are learning to preach. I have a Gurukula here for the Indian children. Thirty children I have.
Prabhupāda: Oh, very good.
Prabhupāda: Atreya Ṛṣi recommending another house.
Nandarāṇī: Yes, we actually want two places because when Iranian businessmen come, we cannot just show them the altar and say, "Here is our program." It must be very careful. And yet when the Indians come we want to have Deities, we want to have kīrtana. So we are trying to do two things in one house and it is very difficult. So he wants a separate place for a restaurant, for Deities, for my Gurukula school, a big room for my classroom, and then a separate home when we have some sophisticated guest we can bring them for dinner. But then we have many Indians, we can bring them for Deities. The Indians, they think this is a temple, but because there are no Deities, then they are not inclined to come. They want to see the Deity.
Prabhupāda: Indians, they want Deity.
Nandarāṇī: They want to see the Deity.
Prabhupāda: Temple means Deity, there must be Deity.
Prabhupāda: Is there any objection?
Mr. Sahani: No objection.
Mrs. Patel: Of course not. Because there's already Gurukula-dwara (?) here. There shouldn't be any.
Mr. Sahani: They have no objection, there's no restriction from the government.
Prabhupāda: So make a nice temple.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: First we need the land.
Prabhupāda: Take that land that you showed me.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we need a piece of land.
Prabhupāda: Why piece? Take big land. Make something gorgeous. Kṛṣṇa is not poor. Although He likes to live in the village, but He is Dvārakādhīśa also.
Prabhupāda: Unless one is put into practice, it is not possible. That is Vedic culture. From the beginning of life students were sent to gurukula for practicing how to become brahmacārī. That training (indistinct). Then they are trained as gṛhastha, then vānaprastha, and ultimately sannyāsa, completely renounced. Immediately, a person cannot be renounced, therefore gradually, step by step. So unless there is proper training... Now just like we are selling millions copies of these books, they are reading, and how many of them coming forward? So it requires training. Training is essential to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: (break) By practice. We are training them to practice how to become devotees. By superficial seeing the activities of Kṛṣṇa, this is not... One has to practice. Just like we are going to start gurukula. Gurukula means practice. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dāntaḥ (SB 7.12.1). How to become self-controlled, dānta. That is the... So our mission is to awaken the original consciousness, and that can be done by practice. Without practice, it is not possible. It is not by seeing some picture one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is not possible.
Yaśomatīnandana: But they don't go too long, because in Ahmedabad they have started one Gujarat, one Bhāgavata-hṛdaya-pīṭha.(?) Just outside Ahmedabad. And he had a plan to build a whole huge temple and dharmaśālās and schools, gurukulas. That Krishna Shankara Shastri, that poor fellow, he started something, and now he has scarcity, he cannot find funds to finish his project. So the project is lying idle for almost two years. They collected sixty, seventy lakhs initially, but then...
Prabhupāda: Sixty seventy lakhs? And he squandered it?
Yaśomatīnandana: No. He has got land and he has got some buildings, but now he has no funds to go further. And there also no local people give. All he collected in London and Africa from the Gujaratis. (break) ...in becoming trustees and managing the things, but they will not give any money.
Prabhupāda: So bring some sitting place.
Prabhupāda: Maintenance, twenty thousand?
Gargamuni: Well, that includes agriculture, the gurukula, everything. It includes everything.
Jayapatākā: Actual maintenance, about eight or ten thousand. Other things, landscaping and other things...
Gargamuni: Landscaping... We built you a very wonderful park, very nice park. We've also put a walkway around the ghāṭa with stairs.
Prabhupāda: Now, what is the position of our big project?
Prabhupāda: No, they said Gandhi, Juhu Road?
Saurabha: No. Now on the latest letter that I got from the government it was written A. B. Nyer Road. Maybe it was an old letter, I don't know. When we submitted the new plans for the gurukula building, there was a letter I had to sign about the work, that we have given to the architect, an official letter so that we can get the permission. And it was written that the plot was on the A. B. Nyer Road, our land. So I inquired, and they said, "Yes, that's the name of that road."
Prabhupāda: Is there any signboard, A. B. Nyer Road?
Saurabha: No.
Prabhupāda: Then?
Saurabha: That is only in the back near that new hotel, that Holiday Inn Hotel. This one portion says A. B. Nyer Road. So that road goes like this-here is the Juhu Market and the road goes...
Prabhupāda: No, we go on as Hare Krishna Land, Juhu.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Enclose this quote.
Maṇihāra: "ISKCON has generated many community farms like New Vrindaban, providing the ideal atmosphere of a busy, yet peaceful village, fully devoted to spiritual progress. Swami Prabhupāda has also established the first Kṛṣṇa conscious gurukula in the West, a primary school in Dallas, Texas, for one hundred boys and girls between the ages of five and fifteen. Soon after its success, many such gurukulas have sprung up all over the world. Aside from teaching reading, writing, mathematics, geography, etc., the gurukula teaches the child how to cultivate God consciousness. Once a year members of ISKCON journey to the Society's international headquarters at Śrīdhāma Māyāpur, ninety miles north of Calcutta, and the birthplace of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. It is the site of a ten crore rupees international Vedic village comprised of community farming projects, high-class gurukula school, free medicinal facilities, and handloom weaving center. An institute of Vedic studies is proposed to be established at this site. Other major ISKCON centers in India are in Vṛndāvana, Bombay, and Kurukṣetra, the site of a three-crore rupee international Sanskrit university. This project will be sponsored by Alfred Ford, a nephew of Henry Ford. This will be the cultural..."
Prabhupāda: Nephew, nephew of Ford, that's a fact. Alfred is from the daughter's side. So the present Mr. Ford, his nephew, certainly, because daughter's side. His mother is the daughter, granddaughter of Henry Ford. Alfred's mother is the granddaughter of Henry Ford. Therefore the present Ford is the maternal uncle of Alfred.
Maṇihāra: "This will be a cultural gateway of India for the people of the world. Hyderabad is the South Indian headquarters for ISKCON in India. The magnificent Śrī Śrī Rādhā-Madana-mohana temple at Nampally Station Road, inaugurated by Swami Prabhupāda, will serve as a center of the cultural, spiritual, educational and social activities given to uplift the lives of people here. According to Śrī Mahāṁśa Swami, the president of the Society here, the devotees will hold seminars in colleges, factories, business centers, universities, schools, etc., to teach the techniques of spiritualizing the day-to-day life. Deity worship accompanied by the constant chanting of the holy names will be a special feature at the center. Besides, there will be daily classes in Sanskrit, Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavatam, and the Upaniṣads. There will be a Vedic library consisting of Swami Prabhupāda's books and various books on comparative study of religion. A cassette library will be a special feature here. Devotees will travel into towns and villages and do saṅkīrtana for the uplift of the masses. ISKCON Hyderabad is introducing for the first time in South India its major 600 acre community farming project, 40 kilometers from Hyderabad, to benefit about 20,000 villages. Besides regular free nutritional food distribution program, ISKCON is also planning to set up a model high-yielding 600-cow dairy farm, handloom centers, nature-cure hospital, and gurukula school project. Swami Prabhupāda's most substantial contribution, however, is to be found in his books, a veritable storehouse of knowledge and wisdom. He has written more than 50 books so far, explaining the principles of Kṛṣṇa or God consciousness in a logical, practical, and scientific way. Through his books people are understanding the eternal wisdom of the ancient Indian scriptures. That ISKCON has made a significant contribution to the intellectual, cultural, and spiritual life of contemporary man is obvious from the fact that people of all ages and..."
Prabhupāda: A very important article.
Prabhupāda: That is the speciality. The guru... One should go to guru to serve him as menial servant. That is acceptance of guru. That is required. Nīcavat. Nīca, nīca means menial. Just like menial servant, he does everything. Similarly, to live with guru means to serve him as a menial servant. That is Vedic injunction. Nīcavat. You should not be puffed up, that "I am coming from such royal family, I am coming from such rich family." And that tendency is trained up from the childhood. A child does not know. Just like Pradyumna's son. You can engage him in any menial service. He does not discriminate. He's trained up. So this is gurukula. Very word is used, nīcavat. He gives service to the guru just like a menial servant. And this training being given from the childhood, he does not know what is low or what is high. His spiritual master asks to do something... Even Kṛṣṇa went to the forest to collect some dry wood. Vasudeva's son, in royal family, but he had to go. And all of a sudden there was storm and, what is called?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Lightning.
Prabhupāda: Hailstorm. And they became entrapped in the jungle whole night. And in the morning guru with other disciples came to search out them. And this Sudāmā Vipra and Kṛṣṇa was stranded, and they were found out, then taken back. So even Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He served the guru as menial. The guru's wife asked Him, "Bring some fuel from the jungle," and they went immediately. This is gurukula. No, I mean to say, prestigious position. "Guru has said—has to be done." This training. Then?
Maṇihāra: There's just a few more sentences. "The Society has indeed set for itself a noble and laudable ideal, producing men and women of high character, sincerity, and God consciousness."
Prabhupāda: Send this rascal.
Prabhupāda: And a professional dancer is going and the government is paying.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'd like you to take this because this also has an article at length about our Gurukula system in America.
Prabhupāda: Unless they are appreciating this culture, how they are accepting?
Krishna Modi: It is perfectly right. But they must do it like that.
Prabhupāda: Who will do. Do it... We can give you all information.
Prabhupāda: Latest?
Krishna Modi: Latest. Also I heard that this Channa Reddy, Governor of the U.P.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's one of our Gurukula children.
Prabhupāda: Let us cooperate. You'll see how I can change the face of India.
Krishna Modi: Let us train some members also.
Prabhupāda: And this is the only platform where real United Nations can be made. That is practical. That is practical. That United Nation has failed. If this Indian culture... I have given this philosophy to the American students. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya. That a lame man and a blind man, separately, both of them are useless. But when they combine together, the lame man is taken on the shoulder of the blind man, and the lame man has got eyes but he has no legs. He gives direction and the blind man goes. So the, at the present moment I am trying to spread this movement all over the world. But we have no means. So let America supply the money, and let them take our direction for the culture. That will be United Nation. And actually it will become. How they are dancing, black, white, Indian, American, European, in Ratha-yātrā? There is no politics. It is out of really spiritual ecstasy.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Bank is going nice?
Akṣayānanda: The bank is all right.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) So the Gurukula building, how far? (Hindi)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When devotees come for Gaura-Pūrṇimā... (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: So let them come first of all here from Delhi.
Indian devotee: They come first here.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Thing is, the whole thing has to be completed in three weeks because the American GBCs don't like... They think it is a very big loss financially. (Hindi) Book distribution stops completely. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Is that correct? Is that correct key?
Hari-śauri: This one's for some of the locks on the doors.
Prabhupāda: Which door?
Hari-śauri: Ah, from the... I think it was one on the bedroom originally. They may have taken them off again.
Prabhupāda: Find out the door.
Rūpa Vilāsa: Gurukula.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's in charge of Gurukula. He's here for the last six months. Jagadīśa left him here. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...he has got?
Devotee: What taste does he have?
Rūpa Vilāsa: He seems to have a taste more for studying, but not too much for teaching.
Prabhupāda: Study is not to teach. What is that study?
Rūpa Vilāsa: I mean to say he likes very much studying languages and writing. He's a good scholar. But...
Prabhupāda: Has he written anything?
Rūpa Vilāsa: In the classroom with the children he is not so expert.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Has he written anything? You say that he likes to read and write. So has he written anything?
Rūpa Vilāsa: Just as far as I know, some articles for Back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Hindi is essential. It is not difficult. The same principle as Sanskrit. Reading and writing, that's all.
Jagadīśa: So far as the financial situation, I've discussed with Bhagatji and it seems that the best idea is to open a separate gurukula maintenance account with co-signers Bhagatji and Rūpa-vilāsa, so that... Because there's so much...
Prabhupāda: So then some of them, they are getting money.
Jagadīśa: Yes, the parents are sending money.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Jagadīśa: Because with the temple there has been confusion.
Prabhupāda: Now the temple, you can make separate account.
Jagadīśa: Hyderabad?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hard work. He should be given hard work. This gurukula is for high, high class brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, not for the vaiśyas and śūdras. (man laughs in background) No, everyone is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, but there... That I was describing today. There must be division. Don't put horse before a cart.
Pradyumna: Race horse before the cart.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pradyumna: Race horse before the...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that will not be nice.
Bhagatji: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Vaiśya is meant for kṛṣi.
Indian man: If you don't teach vaiśyas for this gurukula then how do they do the accounts?
Prabhupāda: No, we are not taking vaiśyas by birth.
Jagadīśa: Accounts is just a skill. Anyone can learn to do account.
Indian man: No, vaiśya is special work.
Jagadīśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, accounts are meant for kāyasthas, śūdras. (Indian man laughs) Vaiśyas are meant for producing grain and protecting cows. Yes. According... One Englishman used to say, "This clerical job means educated laborer, educated śūdra." (laughs) Śūdra... Actually the kāyasthas are counted amongst the śūdras. You know that?
Bhagatji: In Bengal kāyasthas is the...
Prabhupāda: No, no, Bengal. Mean in U.P.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. Let him take care. He should take care. Therefore we must have all these engagement. He'll be encouraged to take care of the cows.
Bhagatji: But he's not in Gurukula. How can you send him? He is with (father's name withheld). (father name withheld) left him for five days. (father name withheld) is keeping him.
Prabhupāda: If the father takes care, that's all right. Otherwise he can go to Hyderabad. Hyderabad should be for gṛhasthas, for plowing, for growing, and flowers, like that. No education required.
Bhagatji: He is not interested in education, not at all.
Prabhupāda: No, no education... That is waste of... For such boys who are not interested, why they should be enforced, education? They are not meant for that. Education is for higher brain, sober brain. And not that everyone has to become literate. It is not required. He can do other work.
Jagadīśa: Head, arms, belly, and legs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Whichever suitable, that... One must be suitable for any of these. It is the guide's intelligence: for which purpose he is suitable engage him, like that. That is required, not that everyone has to become a big scholar in Sanskrit. That is not required. Let him come to gurukula, but if he is not suitable... Gurukula, this... So far character is con..., that is for everyone. Just like early rise in the morning, chanting, and going to the... What is the objection? Anyone can do it. That is practice. And for working, if he is not suitable for higher education, let him go to the farm, take care of the cows and grow food, flowers, fruits, eat, and dance and chant. Chanting, dancing, everyone will take part. There is no doubt.
Prabhupāda: That should be educated from the very beginning. Therefore we are opening gurukula, sane brain. Otherwise their brain is spoiled by so-called bad education. I inquired from your state secretary that "You write on the bills, 'In God We Trust,' so why not spread this God consciousness—what is God? You blindly say, 'God in Trust,' but what is God? Do you know? So why not spread this science?" I received no reply up to date. They might have said, "Here is a crazy fellow. Nobody has inquired like this." That's all. They do not like to enter into the controversy. Actually they do not believe in God, but they write, "In God We Trust," is it not?
Dr. Kneupper: That's what they write.
Prabhupāda: Kurukṣetra, the government has not yet decided to give us land.
Indian man: The Hyderabad Gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Hyderabad land we have got.
Indian man: Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: It is very nice place, Hyderabad. I was going (indistinct). I liked it very much.
Indian man: Prabhupāda, there is a place here, near (indistinct). That's about sixty, eighty miles from here. (indistinct) mentioned to you before. (break)
Prabhupāda: That's what they're eating, that lamb's flesh.
Prabhupāda: No lose money.
Jagadīśa: There are rooms in the gurukula.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but that cannot be used for tourists at the moment.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why cannot be used?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A gurukula room? They are not ready for use. The people who come...
Prabhupāda: Well, it will be finished by the time your customers...
Hari-śauri: Your tourist traffic is not going to come immediately.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These are the months now, December, January, February...
Prabhupāda: All right, it has to be done like that, that all classes are going on every day. One who comes on Wednesday, it does not mean he has to wait. The class is there. It doesn't matter Wednesday or Friday. Next day he goes there, next class, next day he goes, next class. The difficulty may be that we have to set aside seven rooms. That we have got, room.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That we have in the gurukula building...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...but not at the moment.
Prabhupāda: No, no. gurukula building.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And also...
Prabhupāda: Gurukula building is meant for instruction. And the guesthouse is meant for boarding and lodging. That's all.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we wanted to take advantage of it in a month or so, like the tourists...
Prabhupāda: By month, it will be done. The gurukula downstairs will be ready.
Prabhupāda: If not, for the temporary you can hold somewhere. That doesn't matter. But the system will be this education will be given in the gurukula building.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Now, we're also going to do this in Bombay, Śrīla Prabhupāda because...
Prabhupāda: But first of all, you make one successful here. Then you think of other.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But now we should not teach them any exercise at all?
Prabhupāda: This is exercise. If he sits down two hours like that, it is more than exercise.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But this may not satisfy them. They may want to do...
Prabhupāda: No, we are not going to satisfy them. This is our... This is our process. If you want to learn, then we have to learn according to Bhagavad-gītā. We are not going to flatter you.
Prabhupāda: No, we have our own shop and...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we are having our own shop now in the gurukula. We are having it before the festival. We are having that before the festival.
Hari-śauri: It should be open for this course.
Prabhupāda: Another thing, that... I don't think they are very serious, that... They have paid that 250 rupees rate? This bank? They wrote they are going to pay.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Last I heard when I left is they had got their approval to pay two hundred rupees, but they haven't paid so far.
Prabhupāda: No, they have written 250.
Prabhupāda: He gave me twice funds. Four thousand once, five thousand. Five thousand he gave me when I went to America for the second time.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They gave fifteen thousand about three months ago for gurukula in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Oh. No, they are sympathetic.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have promised that after they complete their building, their temple in Janma Bhumi they will give us money regularly. Now they are diverting all their funds to complete that building in Janma Bhumi.
Prabhupāda: No, if we want management of that Janma Bhumi they can give it.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The corner land to the left? Left of Gurukula? Or...
Prabhupāda: No Gurukula... When we go to the chuni,(?) in front of...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ha, ha, ha. In that direction.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is agricultural land.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Right opposite...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: Where that gate is.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Not long time. They'll give us, because it is lying vacant.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: On the sewage problem in Vṛndāvana, we'll have to make, do something quickly because even the Gurukula will not be able to open till we can...
Prabhupāda: So you can do it immediately. But go on, purchase. It is lying vacant.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, that's a very good idea. But we'll still have to put a pipe underground coming out.
Prabhupāda: That is not much, a few you, few yards only. And then introduce it and distribute that water, the whole land, and you will get good agricultural produce, very good. You can have very good business.
Hari-śauri: That can be used for agriculture?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This water is very valuable for agricultural purpose. Nature has made in such a way. Aiye. All rejected water, you can utilize for agriculture.
Prabhupāda: Immediately. That is... That will be proper utilization. And in the court, unless they arrange for this dirty water out, why shall I pay tax? We shall stick to this position.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We are sticking to it. The only harm to us is our Gurukula is going to get delayed now, the opening.
Prabhupāda: But in the meantime you...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And also we are running out of time because we can't let water accumulate the way it is.
Prabhupāda: So why you can't? We have purchased that land. They have to...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that is... We'll try for that now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means... We have purchased that land. By force you can drive out? We are trying for that. Go to the court: "We have regularly purchased that land. What can be done? The municipality is not doing anything." We have to fight like that.
Prabhupāda: No, Ekādaśī, that is automatically... By Ekādaśī is one of the process for... (Hindi)
Indian (2): (Hindi)
Indian lady: May I ask one question? I'm running my own school in Hosharpur, and it starts to A-class, and I want to convert it into gurukula. How I can make arrangements for the books and the examination or the students can take Welley(?) certificate and examination from recognized book? We should make something.
Prabhupāda: Running on...? What is that school?
Indian lady: All kind of school, English-speaking.
Prabhupāda: But if you have to work under government regulation, then you cannot do it. You won't get government help.
Indian lady: But I want to convert it into gurukula on the basis of Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Our gurukula means how to teach them to become self-controlled. That is first business. This literary education secondary, grammar secondary. The first necessity is how to create them śānta, dānta, self-controlled.
Girirāja: Of course that is our business to construct temples.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Temple (indistinct). Temple means preaching center. This Gurukula I have made for temple (indistinct) center. Now they have made it but that (indistinct). Purpose is, that whole world in the neophyte stage, they will (indistinct), man-manā bhava mad..., think of Kṛṣṇa, offering obeisances, offer (indistinct) from the persons maintaining the temple (indistinct). Therefore they do not like that a temple should be constructed, it is waste of... (indistinct) ...must be engaged to work hard, produce money and enjoy sense gratification. Hog civilization. We are restricting that "Don't work hard like hog and dog or animals, just satisfy your minimal necessities of life, save time and (indistinct) spiritual understanding. This is our mission. Their mission is, "What is this nonsense, spiritual understanding? Simply some sentiment, waste of time. Produce, enjoy, invent so many things for sense gratification." Western civilization.
Prabhupāda: ...in Vṛndāvana. And try to organize this Gurukula as their world attraction. That will be your success. Simply teach them nicely English and Sanskrit. And our books are there. And regular habits: going to the Yamunā in procession, timely get up early in the morning, attending class, clean dress, clean bedding, clean room. Śikhā-sūtra. The Vāmanadeva gave this description. Where is that book?
Jagadīśa: I don't know. Pradyumna may have taken it.
Prabhupāda: There were two books. Woman... Girls should be taught how to become faithful wife, how to learn nice cooking, cleansing, dressing. Simple method. There is no objection of their becoming scholar, but that is not necessary. They have got natural inclination to give service by cooking, cleansing, dressing. Cleanliness is the first necessity. That is hygienic, spiritual, and calm, quiet. India has got special facility to remain clean. Only in this country you can take thrice bathing. In other countries... Easy there. In your country there is hot water. There is no difficulty if one practices. I think our men have such practice. But this cleanness is this taking bathing at least twice. That keeps a man very clean.
Prabhupāda: I am giving one lakh rupees per month.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no. That is for Gurukula. Plus we contributed about three lakhs to Gurukula's construction. Two lakhs.
Prabhupāda: Now we are paying two lakhs per month.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the initial stages the Gurukula construction was done from the money that we had collected in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: No, from the beginning I am paying.
Rāmeśvara: That will all continue, but it will be adjusted so that Kṛṣṇa consciousness...
Prabhupāda: Yes, Gurukula, Gurukula education.
Rāmeśvara: Still we'll be teaching subjects like history and math.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Without teaching, how the human society will exist? There must be.
Hari-śauri: No, he's talking about some of the subjects they teach now.
Rāmeśvara: Material science as well as spiritual science?
Prabhupāda: No. No, no. There is no need of so-called material science—how to kill children in the womb. These things will be kicked out. Nonsense.
Prabhupāda: No, no, why better quality?
Hari-śauri: Actually this man that was here from that college the other day, he saw one of those Gurukula books and he said, "Oh, what is this?" He saw the Gopal Coloring Book. He said, "Can I get a sample?" Very nice.
Satsvarūpa: At any rate, even that one had many illustrations in it, that Mādhavendra Purī. So he was wanting to know if he could... In order to get all these paintings done, these so many drawings, whether he could employ some Jaipur artists that Saurabha is working with, which would be inexpensive.
Prabhupāda: Jaipur artists?
Satsvarūpa: There's some... Just like village craftsmen and workers that Saurabha is working with in Bombay who are making the furniture and different decorations in Bombay, and he says that Saurabha also knows some men in these villages who are artists, and they work for very little, but they can make nice authentic illustrations of all these things, whether...
Prabhupāda: Hm, that is all right. I do not know.
Prabhupāda: I simply know there are some books. Why they are being rejected?
Satsvarūpa: Actually, you think a better engagement for him would be that along with his wife to go back to French translation rather than so much attention on the children's books.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: That last letter that he wrote, he mentioned to you that now there are other devotees who are qualified to do the jobs that he was doing, and he wanted to get more into organizing the Gurukula, because they need someone to organize.
Prabhupāda: That is another... That is all right, Gurukula organize. But the former books, why they should be rejected? (end)
Prabhupāda: Centering that farm?
Yogeśvara: Centered at the farm. They come back maybe once every two months. And then there are about eighty devotees at the farm, of which forty are children. Of those children, twenty or twenty-two are Gurukula children. The others are too small.
Prabhupāda: So nobody is engaged in production, fruit, flowers, grains, milk?
Yogeśvara: There are not many full-time devotees doing production, maybe four full time.
Prabhupāda: And why part time?
Yogeśvara: Part time, everyone is trying to do an hour a day.
Prabhupāda: So what they do, others?
Yogeśvara: Well, from the other forty devotees left there is the staff of pūjārīs, press, temple maintenance. So not so many are left for doing full-time work on the land.
Prabhupāda: You are not getting new devotees to join?
Yogeśvara: In Paris.
Prabhupāda: And building?
Yugadharma: Building is going on very well also. They say the front of the Gurukula will be finished by the time the devotees come, at least partial. Dhanañjaya will have one store opened so the devotees can buy, purchase paraphernalia so they won't go into town and make an array, a display of lakṣmī like that. They are setting it up very nicely.
Prabhupāda: The mūrtis are made nice?
Yugadharma: Oh, yes. Very nice. This Spanish artist is very, very first-class, very first-class.
Prabhupāda: It is locally molded?
Yugadharma: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And he is giving the finishing touch, polishing.
Prabhupāda: That you can do in Hyderabad. Six hundred acres.
Hari-śauri: At least we have our gurukula in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Vṛndāvana.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Was that your plan for Kurukṣetra, to have a university there?
Prabhupāda: If you can develop all this, you don't require separate. But if the government donates the land or give us acquiring, then we can do something. That life member, big life member, came to see?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Very big man. I don't remember his name. New member. Girirāja was giving a tour. It should be very finely built. It should not be too hastily made.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Prabhupāda: That building is also coming very nice.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Gurukula. Very gorgeous and nice. And if there are gates and road in our name, (laughing) that will be unique in India. Then people will come to Vṛndāvana to see our... Nowadays also, they are coming to see our temple. Anyone who comes. That prasāda distribution is going on in the evening?
Devotee: Daily.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That must be done. Anyone who comes to see the ārati, at least two puris, little vegetable, halavā should be given. Prasāda distribution should go on everywhere. Who said that that is my trick? Who was...?
Prabhupāda: No, no. The British policy was that "If you keep the Hindus as Hindu, it will not be possible to rule over them." That was their policy. Therefore, from the very beginning childhood, everything Indian condemned.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So this is the same mentality in America now. They are seeing us... Just like the gurukula, their opinion of gurukula—"Oh, children are getting up early? Forced to get up early? Forced to eat on the floor? Not being given proper diet?"
Hari-śauri: "Don't sleep on beds?"
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Same mentality as the British had when they came here.
Prabhupāda: But India, there is no such objection.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When these boys grow up a little they can be sent all over India.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. They can be trained up very nice, from the very beginning.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that should be one of their programs here, saṅkīrtana parties with the young gurukula boys when they get to be twelve, thirteen.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, Vṛndāvana also can be done.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are they making devotees there? Not so much.
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana locally you cannot do. Mostly they rogues, the bābājīs. But there is good potential. (door opens and closes)
Hari-śauri: I can't find him.
Prabhupāda: Oh. He's not in his...?
Hari-śauri: He's not in his room.
Prabhupāda: They all bokā, rejected. Let them become happy in their own way. (break) But because I talk with everyone, they are...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What will be the difference between the Vṛndāvana gurukula and this gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Nothing. The same thing. (break) Civilized man. "Beware of Dog." "Keep aloof, private place."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fearful.
Prabhupāda: And just see result. Cannot believe in faith(?). Human being. And dogs are so trained... You have not seen the dog. It is within the house. You're passing, they'll bark, unnaturally disturbing. You cannot peacefully walk on the street.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise you must accommodate him in our place.
Rādhā-vallabha: Most of the rent I pay is to the ISKCON property account, and that all comes back to Māyāpur, etc., so there's no problem there. Also another thing is children's books. I was looking at the gurukula books. You don't want to get into that. Oh.
Prabhupāda: They are not wanted. We have got one color book?
Rādhā-vallabha: Coloring book and Prahlāda book.
Prabhupāda: That is sufficient. No more.
Rādhā-vallabha: So gurukula should do their own books.
Prabhupāda: Hm? Why... That one book is sufficient. Why more books about this?
Rādhā-vallabha: Well, gurukula already has ten books, but they're printed very, very poorly.
Prabhupāda: Why ten books? Not a single student knows well English, neither Sanskrit, and ten books.
Rādhā-vallabha: These are the Americans, American boys, American gurukulas.
Prabhupāda: Why I do not know. You just discuss this. They do not learn anything, and we are printing books.
Rādhā-vallabha: Those books, they print themselves, the gurukula.
Prabhupāda: "Themself" means?
Rādhā-vallabha: They have a little... In Dallas they a little photostat, and Nandarāṇī would write and they would print it.
Prabhupāda: So it is waste of time, waste of money and waste of time.
Prabhupāda: So what you have decided? Yogeśvara was doing nice in translation, his wife was doing nice. So why should we lose these important hands?
Rāmeśvara: He hasn't been working at the French BBT for many months. He gave that up some time ago and was working with his wife at the gurukula.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He told me that he was frustrated. That's why he gave it up. When he was in New York he told me that had become discouraged.
Prabhupāda: So if Bhagavān and he does not agree, then he should be given better place that both husband and wife, they can go on with the translation work. It is not that he has to remain under the control of Bhagavān. That is not necessary. Let him translate independently, and wherever he likes, he can remain. What do you think?
Prabhupāda: Give me some example that "This is difficult, and if you put it in this way it will be easier."
Rāmeśvara: It's for telling a story, whereas in the Bhāgavatam...
Jagadīśa: We're talking about children's books.
Rāmeśvara: Children's books.
Jagadīśa: For the gurukula.
Rāmeśvara: Yes. Can you explain that?
Jagadīśa: For example, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we take Bhagavad-gītā...
Gurukṛpā: Eight hundred dollars.
Prabhupāda: Oh. This is American?
Bhagavān: It's French money.
Hari-śauri: Francs.
Jagadīśa: If we take the first purport in the Bhagavad-gītā...
Prabhupāda: Purport is not for the children. They should simply understand the word meaning. That's all. Purport is not for the children.
Mr. Rajda: Yes, religious principles.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). We are opening gurukula in Vṛndāvana. We can open here also. We have got land, so let us cooperate. The things are there. We haven't got to manufacture it. Simply we have to take the program seriously. Then everything will be all right.
Mr. Rajda: Por how many days you are here in Bombay?
Prabhupāda: At least for one month.
Mr. Rajda: To one month. I am returning on seventh again here. Then I shall come here. Tomorrow I am going for Delhi, but on seventh I am returning. Seventh I will come here again.
Prabhupāda: So you come and let us (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: And what about municipality?
Girirāja: I met Mr. Rajda, and he had written a very nice letter to the Commissioner, and, the thing is, the typist made many mistakes, so in his office I personally retyped it, but by that time it was too late to meet the Commissioner, so he said to ring up today. But I also met the architect yesterday, and he says that the permission for the Gurukula is ready. It's signed and everything, and he's going to pick it up, I think, tomorrow morning. So in retyping the letter I minimized that. He said that actually those people were helping us, but they just had to, you know, dispose of Matrey's objections first. So the main things we're approaching for is this ten-foot piece of land, which is going to be a constant trouble.
Prabhupāda: They have no use to ask for this ten feet.
Girirāja: No.
Prabhupāda: Neither they have paid for it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...fifty percent for construction.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And that money should be reserved for their world propaganda, scientific. And this gurukula should be by local subscription, in this way. And settle up this by paying them also compensative, and begin immediately. And you acquire those lands immediately. They are ready to give. Take.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, I'll write to those members in Manipur.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That "We want to take it and develop it immediately."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's still many rooms in this two towers which have not yet been sold. So that could also bring in money.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Thakur is coming today? No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. We didn't decide a date.
Prabhupāda: So you can say, "Any day you are welcome." So he talked sense.
Prabhupāda: So far gurukula is concerned, that also, I have given program. They have given the name of "girls." We are not going to do that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is that?
Prabhupāda: Girls. Boys and girls. That is dangerous.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: In that article.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, oh, oh.
Prabhupāda: Girls should be completely separated from the very beginning. They are very dangerous.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we're... I thought there were girls in Vṛndāvana now. They said that they're going to have the girls' gurukula behind the boys' gurukula. Gopāla was talking about that.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No girls.
Prabhupāda: So our gurukula should be ideal. Not all these boys... You should take care of these things from the very beginning—if you want actually spiritual life. If you want to progress like animals, that is different thing, as the whole world is doing. We want to maintain an ideal institution. People may see. In Christian idea also, the nuns were separate.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nowadays the nuns, every... Twice a week they get their hair set. They wear miniskirt now.
Prabhupāda: And so many scandal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're not strict anymore. Priests are smoking cigarettes, watching television.
Prabhupāda: If there is no training, naturally it will deteriorate.
Prabhupāda: He arranged for a very palatial building, yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He says you would make him listen to your writings. Sometimes you would write all night, I think he told me. I spoke to him on the phone when I was at Vele(?). He sends you his daṇḍavats. He says he's ready to move in when the Vṛndāvana gurukula is ready. He says he'll move to Vṛndāvana and do whatever you want him to do in the gurukula.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Mohatta, he also passed through Shivapuri. So he... When I told him there were some woods, some forests, he said, "Oh, then it must be Shivapuri." I said, "How did you know that?" He said, "Because of all the pla... That is the only place where there's even a little bit of forests." He said, "It is not much forest, but there is something." He said, "Otherwise, Madhya Pradesh is generally very dry, but the Shivapuri district..."
Prabhupāda: Hm, Shivapuri.
Prabhupāda: So let them begin the foundation.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Let it go on slowly, but it must begin.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. What is the idea there?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, what is the idea in "Even if it goes slowly, it must begin"?
Prabhupāda: No, if there is no money, it can go slowly.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But at least the work should be there.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Something should be seen to be going on.
Prabhupāda: Somebody has promised there. So as you get help, you go on. But it must be begun.
Prabhupāda: This is our thesis.
Jayapatākā: And educated young people, they're very... They're very susceptible to being devotees. When we traveled in one city, two people joined with us and traveled with us and said they'll be shaved and everything. Very easily they give up. Even when I returned in Māyāpur about five or six new young men had joined. In the twenty days I was gone Bhavānanda Mahārāja had enlisted about five or six men and about fifteen gurukula students and two families. And they were all very enthusiastic. They want to go and preach also. Things are improving.
Prabhupāda: So building work is finished?
Jayapatākā: They're just finishing the top waterproofing, jalja(?). They're building that now. That'll be finished in fifteen days.
Prabhupāda: Others things are going on.
Prabhupāda: Anyone.
Jayapatākā: The gurukula put on a drama just the day before we left. What was the play?
Bhavānanda: Valmiki Dasu Ratnagara(?).
Jayapatākā: Dasa Ratna, Dasa Ratnakara, and Nārada Muni, how he became Vālmīki, that... Two or three gurukula students and two or three teachers, in Bengali.
Bhavānanda: English, Western devotees speaking Bengali. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Very successful.
Jayapatākā: That who will take his pāpāṁśa? Neither his wife nor his son nor his old father, no one would take share of his sin.
Bhavānanda: Only his money.
Jayapatākā: So he took shelter of Nārada Muni and became Vālmīki Muni.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good news, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A translation has come from the...
Prabhupāda: Hm. Very good.
Bhavānanda: People are always saying "Work is worship." Actually they're almost right. Work for Kṛṣṇa is worship. I know that's why they're attracted to Māyāpur temple. Because there's so much work going on, people are attracted: "Why these people are so happy while they're working?" Especially the gurukula boys, sweeping the road hard as anything, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa while they're sweeping.
Prabhupāda: What about my house?
Bhavānanda: That money has just been received, and the plans have arrived from Delhi, but we are wanting an architect in Calcutta, competent architect to... Because we don't want to have anything go wrong in the middle. Ram Nrisinghatar(?) was saying that Mistri is interested in doing Prabhupāda's house. The house and gorgeous garden we have, with fountains and terraces and walkways, all around, before and behind the house, on either side, all enclosed and private.
Prabhupāda: Not yet begun?
Prabhupāda: Now you can go take rest.
Rāmeśvara: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They asked me what program can be initiated for the Bhaktivedanta Gurukula and Institute for Higher Studies. So I suggested that during some auspicious time in Vṛndāvana like Janmāṣṭamī we'll hold a conference, the Institute, when the... They told us it will be opened in July. So I suggested that we're coming, all the scientists together. We would like to present "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, the Scientific Philosophy." We can invite scholars from Delhi and surrounding Vṛndāvana communities and...
Prabhupāda: Seminar.
Prabhupāda: Keep always busy. Make execution. Something must go on. We have got our guesthouse to provide respectable gentleman with quarter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think it will also be good for the gurukula, to tie together, 'cause we have this Institute and gurukula together. That way, it will be more attractive for program.
Prabhupāda: Hm. So did you talk with Bhakti-prema Swami?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. I'm going to talk with him too.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Keep me forward. Yes. Keep always busy. That I wish to see.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. I suggested to Dr. Sharma that first of all we hold that conference in Vṛndāvana and come here. So we can announce some nice topics, so he can also speak. And we can invite some scholars. They can also speak. We can have open discussion, exchange of ideas and philosophy, so that we expose Kṛṣṇa consciousness on this scale. So Prabhupāda wants that Bhaktivedanta Institute is also here in Vṛndāvana along with the Bhaktivedanta Gurukula, an institute for higher studies, and there be one office in the gurukula building so that...
Prabhupāda: No, I request you all that you keep this building always busy with some conference, with some meeting, with some... It shouldn't remain vacant. And for expenditure, I shall arrange. There is no want.
Dr. Sharma: That is disease. It has become now plague.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So both of you are very intelligent boys. I want to see that you are always busy in these affairs. (Bengali) Bhaktivedanta Institute and Gurukula for Higher Studies. (Bengali) I want to see that you are always busy. Busy-ness. That will give me pleasure. Laziness I don't want. Personally I was never lazy. I did not like laziness.
Dr. Sharma: (indistinct) We create in our mind problems.
Prabhupāda: Because sometimes I become morose that I became lazy, so therefore, if I see you busy, this moroseness will reduce. When I see that you are working and the whole thing is busy, oh, that gives me pleasure. Yes
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I'm also thinking of writing some books for children, for Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Write.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Welcome. But no cooking there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. No, that's cleared up. Immediately we can start using that hall for feeding our meal. Actually there's no reason why certain parts of that building can't be utilized now, not just sit. On one day there has to be some, you know... We may have that to show opening ceremony, but still, certain places can be utilized at a time. Just like they're using some of the...
Prabhupāda: No, opening ceremony... Gurukula is going on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Some of the offices are already being utilized. So the dining hall can be utilized and the kitchen floor.
Prabhupāda: That offices I cannot understand. There is no management; then office. Big, big office, but no management. All bogus. Office means management. But there is no management, and the office. Office, what does it mean, office?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good management.
Prabhupāda: So how they can be reliable, so-called, this way...? (background whispering) Hm?
Yaśodā-nandana: In the Gurukula we were teaching Īśopaniṣad class to the children. So we took... (break) ...Prabhupāda and the words which the recent edition of the Press is wrong. Many changes were brought. They were trying to make better English, but sometimes, to make better English, I think they were making philosophical mistakes also. There is no so much need of making so much better English. Your English is sufficient. It is very clear, very simple. We have caught over 125 changes. They're changing so many things. We are wondering if this is necessary. I will show you today. I have kept the book.
Prabhupāda: I know that these rascals are doing. What can be done? How they can be relied on?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's not the responsibility of the BBT trustee, to see these things don't change without Prabhupāda's sanction?
Prabhupāda: And Rāmeśvara is indulging this. The great rascal is that Jagannātha? He's there in Los Angeles.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed. It has been unsuccessful many times. Still they'll do. When the sewer ditches will be complete? Sewer ditches?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The sewage line? They should be completed in a month. Before the Gurukula opens, it has to be finished.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) You can eat it immediately.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, sorry.
Prabhupāda: You like it?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: And you did not take?
Akṣayānanda: I take. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...I stressed in other that in India strictly maintain an institution, following Bhagavad-gītā's conclusion. That we are trying to do. It is not a new invention. It is already there. If it is not possible to maintain such an institution, then human civilization will be finished. There is no hope. And it is now being effective worldwide. Why India should not maintain?
Prabhupāda: So people were inclined to send their children to gurukula. Now they are inclined to send their children to cinema, this, that... A difficult task, to institute. Loafer class, they should be trained up as śūdras, in carpentry, moving(?)... It doesn't, do not require academic education. Simply make a skill. They'll learn.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're not after the loafer class.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They are not loafer. They are also useful. But they are... Bringing them to the education, university, they are becoming loafer, ironclad. As soon as the low-class men are given education, he thinks, "Now I have become educated, baḍa bāpu. Why shall I work as a carpenter? I must have credits here." And they're bribing in government office, and sixty percent of the clerks-useless. They do not know how to make file, cumberous. Because everyone is going in New Delhi. And all fourth-class men are admitted. I have seen. If you have to find out an old file, you have to wait six months. Because these people are neither for this purpose nor that purpose.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we should get this gurukula accepted by the government also...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Never do that.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, when our gurukula children apply for entry visas, they should give them visas right away, because these kids from abroad will come to India for gurukula...
Prabhupāda: Our program is open. Brahmacārī gurukule vasan dāntaḥ. We are training like this, covered in the Bhāgavata. Never mind government.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you get accepted by the government, you may have to change you curriculum so much.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I mean, just this is a Vaiṣṇava institute, so when our students apply abroad for an entry visa, they'll get it right away, and they can get a student visa for four, five years. I don't think the gurukula kids come from abroad and then train them six, you know...
Prabhupāda: No, no, the parents are prepared to pick up the expense. That's all. Government curriculum is useless. They'll enforce kids to take eggs, three eggs...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's right.
Prabhupāda: ...in daytime, and four pounds flesh. Otherwise there will be vitamin, less vitamin. Or "Give them vitamins pills, this..." These... "Don't go to Yamunā. It is polluted."
Prabhupāda: It is for them. It is for them, not for the outsiders.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And what will happen to the gurukula overseas? There are many gurukulas...
Prabhupāda: And if we can maintain, maintain them. But there the government says, "Make this like this. Make this like this. Make this like this."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why you made this gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The Dallas gurukula was lost only for this purpose. They could not manage. Jagadīśa said the government was imposing this, that, this, that. Here you can do without...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is no restriction, yes.
Prabhupāda: You bring students from all over the world. But according to our own selection. And if you make an ideal institution here, then the local men also will... The management is difficult. It is not so easy, that simply "I open my office here. I keep my bank here. I get my work." That is not management. Management is little difficult. Everyone is thinking, "Where to keep my leg? Where to keep my leg?" Nobody's thinking how to manage. The same thing, (Bengali). "Warning: Don't keep your head on the northern side." He says, "Oh, where is my head?" So I can give you suggestion.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should overseas gṛhasthas be encouraged to send their children to Vṛndāvana gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Our devotees abroad, should they who have children, should they be encouraged to send their sons to the Vṛndāvana gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is... Practically the gurukula was planned for our own children. We have got gṛhastha devotees. They will have children, and they should be trained up. That was the idea of gurukula.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are a lot of boys in the Los Angeles gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Anywhere. There are lots and hundreds and thousands, but you have to collect them and give them proper education, vidvān, bhaktimān. Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁvā cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam. So if you don't educate them as vidvān and bhaktimān, it is just like blind eye, kāṇa, with some disease, simply giving trouble. That's all. Pluck it out.
Bhagatji: First the gurukula children are there. We have to see to the comforts of the gurukula children.
Prabhupāda: Their comforts first. They have done very nice. (Hindi conversation) ...university, but producing hippies. (Hindi) Library in your... It is all nonsense. Who is going to read the books, big, big library? It is simply waste of time. Train them how to become self-controlled, how to become God conscious, how to become humble, obedient. This is required. And so-called education and last result is to become a hippie, what is the use? Simply waste of time. Education is meant for the first-class men. A kṛṣana does not require education. He should see how to plow, and he'll learn. This mistri does not require any... He should work with other mistri, and he'll learn. Architecture, this, that, so many... Why? Why waste your time? This nice building has been constructed by these laborers. They have got training by seeing, by practice.
Prabhupāda: At least.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At least five hundred.
Guṇārṇava: The top portion also will be kept for gurukula purposes. We were thinking the brahmacārīs and sannyāsīs should move from the guesthouse and live on the top.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Guṇārṇava: So they can mix with the gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not?
Yaśodānandana: What about householders and ladies?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Not at all.
Prabhupāda: Intelligent class. We cannot make them interested. Some of them may come out, but not all. It is not possible.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes wealthy people are afraid that if their sons come to this gurukula, they'll become sādhus.
Prabhupāda: So that I am seeing, how to... That was the problem. They said, "What will be the benefit, satyavādī?" Satya śamo damo titikṣa, jñāna... (Hindi) So culture is lost. That is the difficulty.
Indian man (4): The other day two parents have come, and they have said, "We will give our two boys and let them be first class, for the school here."
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) That is... (Hindi) This is the defect of modern civilization. And Kṛṣṇa wants to impress in the beginning, na jāyate na mriyate vā. (Hindi) Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). (Hindi) This darkness is going on. People are kept in darkness in the name of so-called university education. This is... (Hindi) It will be successful. It may take time. That's all.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Gurukula building... (Hindi conversation) Very, very... Very exalted building.
Dr. Kumar: (Hindi) You got it here or at Bombay?
Prabhupāda: Where we got that, that...?
Dr. Kumar: My book?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We got it here in Vṛndāvana.
Dr. Kumar: (Hindi) Philosophical background of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, so that people may know that this is not a new religion. It's well founded. I've traced the history, the development of Vaiṣṇavism, earliest Vedic period to the present. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) "The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is genuine, bona fide." (Hindi) So you are ready? (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (Hindi conversation) (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The only explanation can be that Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam: "I give him intelligence."
Prabhupāda: In Marwari community they have now degraded. Otherwise they are very nice. Now they have become, recently, hippies.
Śatadhanya: Hm. The young... This new generation, we have seen. They are copying Western...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When I see that boy, that Dalmiya's grandson, unless he comes to our gurukula, he will be spoiled for sure.
Prabhupāda: Hm hm. But Dalmiya agreed. That means if you approach the grandmother, you'll get the boy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Aurora's son, he agreed. I talked to him yesterday. Before he left, he was determined to... He said, "I will send my son there."
Prabhupāda: They are (too faint).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Aurora is very qualified, very important. He was a judge in South Africa. He was an international lawyer. He graduated from Harvard, so many big schools-Oxford, Harvard. I know he wasn't lying. It's true. He held very good position.
Prabhupāda: Is Aurora pleader? Is Aurora pleader, you mean?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that barrister. We have to take very good care to make the gurukula bona fide and genuine. It's really lucky you got that Dr. Sharma. Clearly he's the best. I mean, he's already been principal of big schools.
Prabhupāda: Human activity should be guided toward Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then it is human. Otherwise it is animal. Take minimum demand, be happy, and make progress. That is the platform of progress. Very little... (too faint) The same shape, (too faint) they are improving to make straighter, topless, bottomless, in this way and that way, miniskirt. They are arranging. The thing is the same, but they want to change the taste in different way. No knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Manage nicely.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And this big gurukula as well, if we can organize that, phew!
Prabhupāda: The whole Vṛndāvana Gosai, they are perturbed that this temple is becoming very popular.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How are they feeling about it, the Vṛndāvana Gosais?
Prabhupāda: Envious. They know the future. This will be the first-class temple. This is already.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This temple will be more important than Bankabihari.
Prabhupāda: Hm, hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm sure.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are simply exploiting, and our mission is to give. That is the difference. They know their deficiency, that their business will have to... Common sense.
Prabhupāda: There is no secrecy. Everything is open. Now you have to take advantage. That's all.
Rasāṅgī: She was also considering sending her boys to gurukula here. Turīya has three children..., four children. Three are boys, nine through thirteen.
Prabhupāda: Let them come.
Rasāṅgī: She's considering that. She spoke to Dr. Sharma, and she's very pleased with the type of education and displeased with education in the West, in our...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (break) ...how he'll do better. Big lawyer in the court means he'll be (indistinct). "My Lord Justice..." Deception, this, that... He's a big lawyer.
Prabhupāda: They cannot be expert, these men, managers. They are not... They are giving up everything. But as soon as there is big establishment, we require a top manager.
Mr. Myer: Sometimes there are so many different areas. There is temple management. There is book distribution. There is guesthouse. Now the gurukula is coming.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we want some expert manager to stick to this. When they cannot manage, it is not their fault, because they are not meant for this.
Mr. Myer: Quite right.
Prabhupāda: So if you kindly take up the general management, you are welcome. Money is being squandered. I know that. If you can save some money, that is your great success.
Prabhupāda: But whatever they're doing, simply by training, that there may be some...
Mr. Myer: Yes. We can develop some sort of training program. The gurukula facilities are there. So if some young men are taken who are trained in that fashion, they could do quite a lot. And then we are having major problem in the distribution of some of the literature. You see, Back to Godhead seems to be a very powerful magazine. It has always been very dear to you. You started this even in India. Unfortunately it comes one year late, and we have about several thousand members in India. So I was wondering whether we should try to publish it in India now, because the quantity is not enough. And then have some members who are subscribing for the Back to Godhead... Because some people are unable to afford the very large membership. Otherwise we will remain very exclusive. We won't be able to reach the common man. So one of the things is that each man who comes into the temple, if he can buy a copy of Back to Godhead magazine, he takes away something with him which he can remember. Otherwise people come to Mathurā, they visit so many temples, and they don't carry any souvenir.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we're selling our literature here.
Mr. Myer: Yeah, but that's very old. Some of the copies are very old.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they don't know that when they buy it.
Mr. Myer: And secondly, that doesn't cover much of the activity in India.
Prabhupāda: There is no "old." By date it does not become old.
Prabhupāda: Take one room in the gurukula building.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It will be very interesting. They can use this for teaching.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Explain there in bold and this picture.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, explanation can be... This book is the explanation.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's amazing how Kṛṣṇa has made each universe. It's just like all the fruits. When you get a fruit, it's protected by a skin. This universe is very much protected, first by uninhabited land, then by huge mountain, then by golden land. And then only in the center of these dvīpas there are all the inhabitants and all the activities are going on, very much protected.
Prabhupāda: And they are going to the moon. (devotees laugh) I... So far I remember, the moon is also like the sun, that it is fire blazing, but it is surrounded by a cool atmosphere. Therefore it is soothing. I think there is such description.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that...
Mr. Myer: See, a lot of here, they made the school(?).
Prabhupāda: Therefore we are opening this gurukula.
Mr. Myer: No, even in the other schools, they must give something about the...
Prabhupāda: You say, "They must give," but who takes, "Yes"?
Mr. Myer: In some school...
Akṣayānanda: That is up to us.
Mr. Myer: ...if we can make some beginning of some sort...
Akṣayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So you show by example. Bring these brahmacārīs. Teach them, and gradually... Just like our organization not all of a sudden has become so big. I was... For more than one year I was simply loitering on the street of New York like a vagabond. Who was hearing me? Still, I am going once in a month to the ship company that "When your next ship is coming to go to India?" So the manager: "Swamiji, you are coming. When you are going away?" I said, "Yes, I have no business practically here. But still, I want to stay and see if things can be pushed." Therefore I am writing. Otherwise I am useless. I am simply loitering and seeing the Fifth Avenue and the... And within the subway station, after taking my lunch I used to go by bus here and there, in the subway, anywhere go, it stops.
Prabhupāda: That is expected. He's a good man. But...
Mr. Myer: And people have got very happy for his personal life. He's gets up in the morning and does the spinning, and he's dedicated... He's not even taking medicines or any type of... Very, very strict. He does not wear any cloth which he is not spinning. I don't know how he finds the time, but he is doing so many things. The people are amazed at his... It is very fortunate that he has come now. I think certainly they will all adopt some special... Because people has to come. Once they see the gurukula and Bhaktivedanta Institute coming up... Whoever's not in the gurukula, we're going to post there also... So you don't work the modern language. It is a university also. Perfectly represent special...
Prabhupāda: No, our books are more than university standard. If they simply can study our book, it is more than the course he was given. Tan manye adhitam uttamam. All right.
Akṣayānanda: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...of first grade, one hour there. That doesn't mean necessarily life is shorter. (end)
Prabhupāda: So I can stop?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Gurukula boys are waiting to greet you with kīrtana. They can come in?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Anyway, don't be sorry.
Vrindavan De: No, no. It will be (Bengali).
Prabhupāda: So what you have paid for you coming and going? What is the amount?
Vrindavan De: (Bengali)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From the Mathurā station?
Prabhupāda: No, no. From Calcutta to here. Ticket, what is?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Something like about... The ticket's about fifty-six...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...the modern kīrtana. Kīrtanāt... (break) "We shall improve our economic condition for more and more sense gratification." And that is the mistake. People are trying for that. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā (SB 1.2.10). Yāvad artha-prayojanam. Whatever money is required for maintaining, that's all. And as soon as we increase the so-called standard of happiness by sense gratification, then there is trouble. That is going on all over the world. They want money. They're not satis... "More money.
Prabhupāda: And police did not help?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it was in the middle of the night. So probably by the time they informed the police, you know, by the time the police came, whatever was done was done. I mean, Gopāla didn't have the full information, and he's going there. And, of course, we were only talking over telephone, so even if he knew... He told me as much as he could over the telephone. But I asked if anyone was killed. He said no. But five devotees were in the hospital. You know that teacher who was here? Hiraṇyagarbha? Remember the gurukula teacher? He was stabbed. I think that's about the most serious that anyone was hurt. No one was killed or anything, but... The government now is very precarious there. It's all Communist government. I mean, I remember when Bengal was with the Communists in 1971. It was horrible there. So many marches, and so many of our members were being attacked. So maybe it was the Communists who did this. I don't think the Gauḍīya Maṭha could have organized such a thing. They would not do that.
Prabhupāda: No.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It sounds like... I don't know if there's any... Probably they won't attack again immediately. Now there must be police all the time there. I remember, in Calcutta once we had some trouble. Immediately they put a police guard all the time. The question is, of course, how much the government will protect us if the government is Communist and these were Communists who attacked. That we'll have to see.
Prabhupāda: No. It has to be taken to the Central Government.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Regarding that land, if they want to give it, they'll give it. It's not that somebody's going to come, like Mr. Arora, and by his coming suddenly they're going to give us the land. It's a big political matter. It's not friendship. We just have to become very much prepared now for such occurrences. Those gurukula boys, as they grow up, they should be trained to protect Māyāpur.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say kṣatriya. Some of our men should be trained as kṣatriya.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is required.
Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). There must be division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—not that all one class. That is all wrong.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some people are inclined in that way. Guṇa-karma.
Prabhupāda: But everyone can be utilized if you organize it rightly. Three hundred dacoits there means government is very weak.
Prabhupāda: Never mind.
Mr. Myer: ...know exactly what is happening, once we commonize the kitchen, the office, accounting chain and everything. At present we are slightly under capital, small space, but... Gurukula is coming out very well. In fact we met the contractor yesterday. So we're hoping that by next month this time the whole thing should be shifted and so many more guestrooms will be released for people coming here for the festival. Possibilities are very good.
Prabhupāda: Everything is there by Kṛṣṇa's grace. Simply if it is nicely organized, things will... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa is very much appreciating.
Mr. Myer: Nothing is done by us.(?)
Prabhupāda: So gradually...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a letter from Śrīdhara Swami from Hyderabad temple. Would you like to hear it?
Prabhupāda: You have read it?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Government published this. The Statesman, therefore, has not given any description.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I didn't notice. Here's a little news clipping. It's probably the same. You probably have seen this already. This is from Indian Express. "Why Krishna Mandir Men Fired Salvo." By a... "An attack on the devotees and destruction of the premises of ISKCON Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir, West Bengal, led to the shooting incident, according to Mr. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Dāsa, Secretary, Bombay center of the organization. Mr. Dāsa, in his statement issued on Monday, said the news from their sources in Bengal stated that on July 8th about fifty miscreants were found encroaching on our agricultural field and stealing our crops. When a devotee requested them to stop, they became angry and beat him up, fracturing his skull. Nearly 250 supporters of the miscreants..." Notice how they're not going to use "Muslims." They say "miscreants." They don't say "Muslims." Probably the paper wants to avoid. This is a hot issue. No one wants to write "Hindu-Muslim." "Nearly 250 supporters of the miscreants armed with sticks and spears suddenly appeared from behind the bushes and all of them entered the temple area. Mr. Dāsa said the miscreants beat several more devotees, including the Gurukula school headmaster, whose both hands and skull were broken. They also stripped naked a female disciple. They cut off electrical connections, telephone lines and water pipes. The police did not come for two hours, and meanwhile the group destroyed the gate, broke windows and stole two bulls. According to ISKCON Secretary, as a final resort, one ran for a gun, appropriately licensed and registered with the government, and fired a shot in the air. As the group persisted, he fired again into the ground which injured eleven of the miscreants. All of those injured have been discharged from the hospital." They're not injured seriously at all. "Mr. Dāsa said the police advised the devotees to go to the Krishnanagar police station to report the incident, and when they did go there they were arrested. Two devotees in critical condition were also detained in the jail hospital. Asked why our men have been kept in jail, the police replied, 'As a precaution.' "
Prabhupāda: This report is already there.
Prabhupāda: Dismiss. Whoever will remain, they'll eat in front of us. Nobody will be allowed to take food.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was the problem. There were three different kitchens, so they were all eating one place or the other, and you couldn't watch them. Now everything...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In one kitchen is very good, Gurukula.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually there were four kitchens. Including the snack bar, there were four kitchens.
Prabhupāda: One pakki, one kachi. Expert.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Both in the Gurukula building.
Prabhupāda: Everything. And one storeroom. That's all.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: By Kṛṣṇa's grace we have a very nice devotee cook now. He just came from Toronto.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's grace is always there, but we spoil Kṛṣṇa's grace. That is our business. "But Kṛṣṇa is giving us so much grace. Let us spoil it." That is our proposal. If there was no Kṛṣṇa's grace, how this institution would have come into existence? It was not possible, such a big institution, all by one man's endeavor, starting with forty rupees. Simply Kṛṣṇa's grace. So don't spoil that. This... This... That's not good. Then Kṛṣṇa will not help. Just like the father gives you money. If you squander that, He'll be very sorry. Tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇaḥ (SB 10.14.8). "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so kind by giving me this opportunity." You should take things like that, not that "For nothing the father has given me so much money. Let me squander it." Have to work much for it. So anyway, Mr. Mani has said.
Prabhupāda: How you like this temple?
Gaurasundara: Very nice. Beautiful. And that school is very nice, gurukula.
Prabhupāda: We require a large amount of... If possible, you try to help. What is your source of income?
Gaurasundara: Not so much income. Some donations, and we have a farm. We're selling produce.
Prabhupāda: If you can, try to. Cows you have?
Gaurasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is the news of our Hawaii?
Gaurasundara: I brought some pictures from the Ratha-yātrā. Have you seen any?
Prabhupāda: No.
Gaurasundara: Ratha-yātrā. Yes. In Honolulu. This is near the ocean.
Prabhupāda: President, what is the name?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They've arranged a very big room for the men, the biggest room here, so it's practically like a temple room in itself. It's where the gurukula used to be.
Gurukṛpā: It is better. We cook separate for Them.
Prabhupāda: Cook separate?
Gurukṛpā: Just for the Deity.
Prabhupāda: That is not very good.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not a big thing here to cook. Prabhupāda just closed four kitchens down.
Prabhupāda: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). No cooking. Tulasī and jala. You can offer little fruits, nuts, milk. No need of cooking. Takes much time. I want here no hired... But for the Deities and the devotees it is false.(?) Their association is bad. Make some arrangement so that you can avoid hired cooks unless it is absolutely necessary. The hired cook, they are most wretched people.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That gate looks very good, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Bhaktivedanta Swami gate, Bhaktivedanta Swami Marg, Bhaktivedanta Swami Gurukula.
Bhagatji: (laughs)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma's garland, tulasī garland. Fragrant.
Upendra: Would you like to go back into sitting up here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? It's more comfortable. (pause) (break)
Bhagatji: (Hindi) For eleven days it stopped, and then from since last two days it has again become.
Prabhupāda: And rate have been...?
Bhagatji: The rate of the grain has gone so high.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one Dr. Sharma wanted to open a Gurukula account. So they told him, "You have no authority whatsoever. Bhagatji has no authority, Akṣayānanda has no authority, Gopāla... Only Prabhupāda has authority." The funny thing about this, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that according to our memorandum, they're not correct. Actually, according to the memorandum, two members of the Bureau can pass a resolution to open an account. But the most amazing thing is they don't accept the Bureau. They accept something called the Governing Body, which legally in India doesn't have any weight. And when I tried to explain to them that there's a memorandum and there's a Bureau, they said, "We don't accept it. Everything is Prabhupāda, and he's the chairman of the Governing Body." When I told this to Girirāja, Girirāja just laughed and said that...
Prabhupāda: If Girirāja can deal with these men, then let him do it immediately.
Prabhupāda: Where?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Bombay.
Prabhupāda: In our?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in our Hare Kṛṣṇa land. In that Gurukula building, because now we have so many books and we don't have enough space, so we're going to start work on the go-down. I just need three lakh rupees, but when Rāmeśvara comes I'll talk to him and then start it.
Prabhupāda: No, three lakhs we have got.
Prabhupāda: They appreciated?
Yaśodā-nandana: Yes. People liked it very much. They had never heard before.
Prabhupāda: Very good. The Gurukula is meant for this purpose. Teach them and let them go around the world to teach. Taroho e bhava-sindhu. Durlabha mānava-janama sat-saṅge, taroho e bhava-sindhu re. This is our mission. Īśopaniṣad?
Yaśodā-nandana: Īśopaniṣad? Recite?
Brahmānanda: Sing it, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Jijīviṣo.
Prabhupāda: Everyone, if one is actually gentleman. So we have this Gurukula, good chance for teaching future preacher. Here is Yaśodā-nandana Mahārāja and others. You can do. Prepare, send. Prepare and send.
Brahmānanda: "Prepare and send," Prabhupāda said. Prepare them and send them.
Prabhupāda: How much tremendous work we have to do.
Brahmānanda: The whole world, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Hari-śauri: It's unlimited.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Unlimited.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many boys are in the Gurukula now?
Bhavānanda: Now there're eighty-six boys in the Gurukula.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eighty-six. How many residents are there at Māyāpur now?
Bhavānanda: We've thinned out.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many?
Bhavānanda: There's 160 including Gurukula. After the incident we lost some devotees.
Prabhupāda: How many?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many did you lose?
Bhavānanda: About twenty, twenty-five.
Bhavānanda: Śatadhanya Mahārāja and I have formed the welcoming committee, and we're going to greet all of the guests when they come. We're having... The guesthouse will be empty tonight and cleaned up and all arrangements made for their stay there. That's as much as I've been able to do to date, because I don't know what Svarūpa Dāmodara has done. That's all I'm able to find out. There was nothing done as far as that goes-greeting the people and seeing that their living arrangements are made. They've made a temporary kitchen over in the Gurukula building for cooking, and we're seeing that the prasādam is... We're going to go over the menu, that that is all nice and nicely served. I'm waiting for...
Prabhupāda: And what about the conference place?
Bhavānanda: The conference place is being cleaned up now.
Prabhupāda: Which room?
Bhavānanda: On the ground floor in the front, the conference room? They had a big conference room there?
Hari-śauri: That was going to be the bank.
Bhavānanda: Right. That's being cleaned now, and that will be all ready. So everything is going on.
Prabhupāda: When the conference begins?
Jayapatākā: No. It is not required that you talk to him. There's no... Everyone says that there's no case for that. The previous ADM said that actually the person that was doing it is this woman district magistrate. That woman is quite inimical to us. So there's very strong talk that after Durgā Pūjā she'll be transferred. If she's transferred, then our situation would become much better, I hope, by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. She's just trying to harass us, but actually she has no legal scope. Indian Overseas Bank came out, the additional general manager, to Māyāpur, and he's very eager to open up the branch at Māyāpur also, because they have already in Bombay. I think... They have here also? I don't know. But he was eager to open a branch there. They have made us an application. The Central Bank sent a letter, withdrew their application for opening the bank. Right now the Gurukula, they have just finished their examinations. Their examinations were writing an English sentence in Sanskrit and writing Sanskrit in English and similar type tests. They, most of the students got seventy percent on the examination. Then the bigger children went out on saṅkīrtana with the two traveling parties, one to Darjeeling. In Darjeeling they sold seven thousand books in less than ten days. They had very good reception in Darjeeling. And one party is still in Bihar. They did four thousand books.
Prabhupāda: Bengal book.
Jayapatākā: In Bihar—they were doing the border of Bengal in Bihar—so they did both Hindi and Bengali. And in Darjeeling they did Bengali. Every day we're getting about twenty letters in the mail from people who want to be devotees or want to subscribe to the magazine. We get a big stack of mail. So there's a lot of interest from the books.
Prabhupāda: So utilize them properly.
Jayapatākā: Now there's eighty boys in the Gurukula, and they're all very bright-faced, chant very nicely. In the other temple that Lokanātha Swami had begun in Orissa, Bhadrak, there they also had a nice program during Janmāṣṭamī and Vyāsa-pūjā. I visited there. There it's in a small town, and it's about two hundred feet from the side of a small river. All the local people there are very favorable and very cooperative. So they help in all the functions.
Prabhupāda: Where is that place?
Jayapatākā: That's in Balasore district.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That much we want to keep. The people may not think of it as bogus.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our chief guest for tomorrow has already arrived. And he's very impressed. I took a tour of our temples, also the Gurukula. And they're very impressed with the whole building and the whole program that we have here. Very nice. He brought also an architect. He's a retired engineer, Chowdury from..., together. Also we already have a mathematician from Delhi University for tomorrow. So I took three of them tour of our temple and gave them nice prasādam. They were very impressed.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This has never happened before, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are the real ācārya for this age, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You perfectly know how to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You're making people who would ordinarily never take interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness become devotees.
Prabhupāda: In the beginning, when I was selling Back to Godhead alone, I wrote one practical businessman, Mr. Bande(?) I think. He said, "Swamiji, why you have made Vṛndāvana headquarter? (laughs) It is not a place for..." (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we have decided that the function will be started with the Brahma-saṁhitā prayers with our Gurukula boys to open the conference, followed by the short speech by the chief guest. Then we'll start our main talk. Our main talk is going to last at least two hours. Each of us will speak. And then I've decided to open about half an hour for questions and answers and general discussion. On Sunday I'm leaving more than an hour for discussion. We'll summarize the whole conference and also make some conclusive remarks about the previous two days' talk that we are making.
Prabhupāda: So the place is cleansed or not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Elegant.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very elegant. All the scientists who are attending, they're dressed a little informally. But our men are very formal. They have the ties on. Everybody has a badge. All the people who are attending have a special badge mentioning the scientific conference's name and the individual person's name. That's in one place. Then in another room is the conference room. It was the room where we were going to have the bank there. Really big room with fancy backdrop. Some decorator has come and made a very fancy backdrop with a big... There's a long table and podium with microphones and very nice seats. In the dining hall all the seats have special white linen cloths over all the chairs. Very fresh looking and clean. And in the other room it's very cool. There's curtains so that the sun can't come in, and now there's a big yajña going on. Yaśodānandana Mahārāja and the Gurukula boys are inaugurating the conference by chanting Sanskrit mantras, and some of the scientists are... Actually they were very amazed to see how our men could chant like that. The whole building is first-class for this purpose. When we build this Bhaktivedanta Institute hall... It's the most wonderful idea to have this conference here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. These scientists, they're going to be converted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I was certain of it by seeing these arrangements. They never could have... They're being tricked.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Any respectable gentleman, they hate to come to Vṛndāvana.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But by your mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda, now I think many will come later. The man who came yesterday is the friend of our chief guest. His name is Dr. Chowdury. He's also a retired architect. He had a strong appreciation of the architectural design of the temple. He said the Gurukula also... They looked all over the Gurukula, and they were very appreciative. So I told him that we are planning to build another auditorium for the Institute and for the ISKCON activities. So they didn't know these things before. This Ghattack, Professor Ghattack, he's the head of the physics department of India Institute of Technology. He told me last night that never expected that such nice things might exist in Vṛndāvana. So he said there is an atmosphere of purity and cleanliness. He was thinking that maybe he could bring his child for the Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Make it an ideal institution. Who are you?
Abhirāma: Abhirāma, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Massage.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday... Last night some of the scientists were asking how our Gurukula boys here studying Sanskrit. Some of them were telling that they have given up to study Sanskrit because they want to study the English. So how the change of views. The Westerners are trying to learn Sanskrit, and they're saying that they are giving up. So he had a strange feeling how these things are happening. Then I told him that Śrīla Prabhupāda sometimes commented that in the future we are importing brāhmaṇas from the West so that we can learn even the brahminical culture from the Western world. So he was telling me that that is now becoming a fact, how the Western devotees are taking so seriously in trying to spread the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world. (break)
Bhāgavata: ...were all banging on the drums and the karatālas. They started going, "Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hari bol!" very loud, tumultuous sound. All the devotees were very happy. That sound shall go everywhere in the world. Everywhere the devotees... (break)
Jayādvaita: I'm bewildered again. Kṛṣṇa's again doing something impossible.
Prabhupāda: Possible or impossible (break) It is not very...
Prabhupāda: And Dr. Ghosh has his scheme, but actually the scheme is there in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. We want to introduce that scheme to our Gurukula. We haven't got to manufacture scheme. Is that correct?
Girirāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Let them learn to rise early in the morning and cleanse. This is the first scheme. This will keep their health nice. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). Unless in the human society the varṇāśrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful.
Bhagavān: Everything is there very clearly in your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: A man-made scheme-useless. Sāttvika-yuga.(?) What is that verse? Sattvāvalambi-para-sattva-viśuddha-sattvam... From Brahma-saṁhitā?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Sattvāvalambi-para-sattva-viśuddha-sattvam.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that's all right. But still, I feel that even for a Gurukula child we need a hall, small or big. We need something... It's quite common in any academy, institute, whether it's big or large, something where people can get together. Just like friends meet or any other functions that is normally associated with academy institutions. So some sort of hall, it's, I think, will be of value.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara says, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that even if the hall is not simply for the Bhaktivedanta Institute, that the Gurukula here requires to have at least one big auditorium with seats. And also if you remember, the upstairs was going to be living quarters for women. Right now the women are living on the inside part of the guesthouse, and they're very noisy with all the children there. So perhaps it's a good idea to go ahead with that building anyway. He says that the Bhaktivedanta Gurukula could use that hall in any case.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It can be a multipurpose hall. It doesn't have to be just for Gurukula or Bhaktivedanta Institute. It can also be cultural...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cultural or wedding... We could rent it for wedding ceremonies, things like that also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. It's already a cultural center. Just like the Gītā Conference is coming next month, I was told? They would like to hold here. Something like that, we can always get some engagements. Also we can get some...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What do you think, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No, whatever you think is approved.
Pradyumna: Jebā jāne cintāmaṇi?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi, jebā jāne cintāmaṇi, tāra hoy braja-bhūmi bās. And we have got such a nice place, open place, palatial building, such finer...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This will be added incentive to complete, to build your house.
Bhavānanda: Everyone will be in ecstasy, especially the Gurukula boys most of all. They're always asking, "When is Śrīla Prabhupāda coming? When he's coming? Tomorrow?"
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And I will cash those certificates when we get to Calcutta, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Then I don't have to call for them. If we go there, then I'll do everything there. It will be very easy.
Prabhupāda: So that is my proposal. Now you think over seriously and arrange for.
Bhakti-caru: And the śṛṅgāra is so unique here. It's the best.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, everyone says the śṛṅgāra is the best. But for flowers we have not yet the best. So we have to make that. Bhavānanda Mahārāja was suggesting a program, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He was suggesting that in that open land on the side of the Gurukula, that we could build a prasādam pavilion, and we could serve the public every day free prasādam at noon time. That might become very popular in Vṛndāvana. Ḍāl and cāpāṭis. All the sādhus would come. I don't know if it's a good idea, but he was suggesting.
Prabhupāda: Good idea. Very good idea.
Pañca-draviḍa: Just like these Gurukula kids. You have also taught us even how to dress ourself.
Jayādvaita: And you brought us to Vṛndāvana, richest place.
Pañca-draviḍa: Full of desire trees and jewels.
Prabhupāda: You can provide five hundred students very easily.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Such a nice building. Who would not like to go to school here in Vṛndāvana? Nice, pure atmosphere. (break) (Bengali)
Śatadhanya: ...Vrindavan, he's going to Delhi. From Delhi he'll go to Calcutta.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, Vrindavan.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Brahmānanda: Yes. And we went to visit one colonel, full colonel, in charge of supply. He's a very pious men. He tells his soldiers not to drink, not to eat meat, and he teaches them Bhagavad-gītā. So we went to go speak with him, and he was very impressed. He himself admitted that he was taking eggs and drinking tea. So I requested him to stop this, and then you'll be on the..., purely. And he could understand that. He agreed. He said, "From now on, from this day, I will stop." And we showed him the film, "Hare Kṛṣṇa People," and he was very impressed. He called another officer in, and they called their wives to come to the base, and we showed it a second time. And then he wanted some of our books. I gave him Bhagavad-gītā and Hindi Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and then told him about our Gurukula here in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: How much he paid? (?)
Brahmānanda: Well, he was wanting to pay, but Nava-yogendra Mahārāja said it's all right... We asked him to become a member. He didn't want to pay so much money. So we gave him... Because he was an important officer, we gave him. Then he offered... He has some land 25 miles from Delhi, and he said, "We would like to give it for a Hindu temple."
Prabhupāda: Who was there, this meeting?
Brahmānanda: This meeting? Well, the meeting was led by the three men who came to see you this morning. The center was the man from Auroville, and then Mr. Nārāyaṇa and Mr. Bajaj.
Prabhupāda: So that will be three.
Prabhupāda: Recently there was a scientific meeting here. Where is that Statesman report?
Śrī Nārāyaṇa: The report from, about Māyāpur? Some literature?
Prabhupāda: No, here. We... Just describe.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We had a science conference here in Gurukula just about a little more than a week ago.
Śrī Nārāyaṇa: Here in this new building?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the same building, at the same hall that you're going to hold your conference. I invited several scholars, scientists around Delhi and Agra. Also Śrīla Prabhupāda's disciples, scientist disciples, came from around the world. The basic theme was to show that life is coming from the supreme life. In other words everything is coming from Kṛṣṇa. But modern science says that we are just product of atoms and molecules.
Haṁsadūta: This is an article which was published in The Statesman, October 22nd, which covers this meeting. It says, "The Nonphysical View on the Origin of Species. Materialists and men of faith continue to disagree over the origins of life. According to the first group life is..." (break)
(Bhakti-caru and kavirāja-Bengali to end)
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Śatadhanya: In Māyāpur, when they heard that Your Divine Grace was coming, it was like electricity. There was... I've never seen anyone so excited as they were. They were electrified. Everyone was... All the Gurukula, little boys who had never even seen... "Prabhupāda is coming! Prabhupāda is coming!" There were shouts all through the āśrama. And everything was very well organized by Jayapatākā Mahārāja for your arrival.
Bhavānanda: Mrs. De at the airport?
Śatadhanya: At the airport that Mrs. De, who... I think she met you previously. She had told you, "I am also a De."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Remember when we flew to Bombay that lady helped us for getting special seating?
Śatadhanya: So she very kindly made all the nice arrangements at the airport. There was a big caravan with flowers to take you to Māyāpur.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You expected Prabhupāda on that plane?
Śatadhanya: Yes. We had the car out. Everyone was expecting.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They couldn't get through in time to tell them you weren't coming, Śrīla Prabhupāda, so they were all ready at the airport with the cars.
Prabhupāda: So we failed to catch.
Prabhupāda: What is that sound?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's one of the brahmacārīs shaking out the dust in the rugs. In my office we have some rugs, so he takes them outside and shakes them. He's a nice brahmacārī, young boy from the Gurukula, from Mexico. Is it time to go on, Śrīla Prabhupāda? (break) ...today. So I would meet him last night, and if he was to come this evening I wouldn't think that there would be any harm, that he could come this evening, I think it's not bad in that it sort of sometimes has an effect to encourage the patient if the doctor or kavirāja comes. It's reassuring. So I think it's nice that he comes. There should be someone with a little bit of knowledge who we can consult each day. He may not be as expert as the Calcutta kavirāja. Still, he is more expert than we are. And he was appointed by the Calcutta kavirāja to come and check up on you and see how you are doing, see if there were any side effects. The real question is that your kidney and liver should be getting better. There's no doubt that you're getting weaker now. That I can see. I've never seen you this weak. But according to the...
Prabhupāda: Very weak. I sit up..., oh, everything...
Prabhupāda: What is the news of Māyāpur?
Jayapatākā: Actually everything is going very nicely now. Everyone was... When the news came that you were coming, it spread just like electricity. All of a sudden, all Gurukula boys, all devotees, they started to cry out, "Haribol! Haribol!" jumping up and down. Just within a few moments everyone was immediately jumping. Now the book distributors, they've been very eager to fulfill your order to do hundred thousand books. So already last month they did almost forty thousand. Last week they did twelve thousand books. One party in Assam, they were selling Bengali, mostly Bengali books. They did seven thousand books in one week.
Prabhupāda: Which one?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Which book?
Jayapatākā: Gītār Gān and Bhagavānera Kathā and...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seven thousand. That's pretty good, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in one week, just for one party. And they have four parties.
Prabhupāda: Now when we construct the other building, further down, it will be (indistinct).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Godown will be on the ground floor, and residences and Gurukula on the other floors. The only problem is that it's such a good place that now we can't get the residents to move out of those other buildings. They say, "Why should we move? Now we have a temple. There'll be a Gurukula. There's a bank." It's very hard to get them out. Of course, we don't care if they stay, if they're nice.
Prabhupāda: Gradually they'll be devotee.
Prabhupāda: You are coming back?
Lokanātha: Yes, we came back from saṅkīrtana. We had kīrtana in the town, Vṛndāvana, Loi Bazaar and Banke Bihārī temple, that route. We had a bullock cart filled in with Gurukula school children, and there was a big group of devotees chanting and dancing in front of the cart, and there was also van, making announcement, inviting people for our afternoon program of ārati, kīrtana, and prasādam distribution.
Prabhupāda: So go.
| Page Title: | Gurukula (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 26 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=211, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 211 |