Group (Conv. 1976)

Room Conversation -- April 20, 1976, Melbourne:

As soon as you see he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is within these four groups: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayā... Immediately conclude.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Garuḍa.

Prabhupāda: Garuḍa. But he carries the Lord Viṣṇu. That is not the point. How to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is really.... To become vegetarian, nonvegetarian, that is not very important. But we are interested in Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. We are not in the group of vegetarians or nonvegetarians. We are Kṛṣṇized. We take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. That is our.... We are servant of Kṛṣṇa, so whatever is left over by Kṛṣṇa, we take. If Kṛṣṇa eats meat, we shall take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. What can we do? Therefore we offer Kṛṣṇa whatever He wants to eat, and we take the remnants. That is our.... Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26), so we offer Him. If Kṛṣṇa says, "Māṁsa, eggs, give Me," then we shall offer Him and take.

Morning Walk -- April 21, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: I think so. They have gone deliberately. We are against cow-killing, so if the movement increases, then their cow-killing may be jeopardized.

Guru-kṛpā: Then they'd have to close many farms. On the grounds that milk causes hepatitis...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru-kṛpā: ...they'd have to close many farms. The government gives aid to so many different groups, but they will not give any aid to our group, although we are doing the most work.

Prabhupāda: What is the reason?

Devotee (1): "Kṛṣṇa..."

Guru-kṛpā: No, we are too much revolutionary for them, our lifestyle, everything.

Prabhupāda: That means they do not like this movement.

Morning Walk -- April 21, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: He was begging, "Give me. Give me (indistinct) (transportion check?)" Who is the rascal that he'll give him (transportion?)? What he is? But he is such a fool, he's begging, "Give me (transportion check?)." Why they'll give you? Then what benefit they'll derive? But he has no common sense to think.

Guru-kṛpā: That is what I think this disease is, with the Siddha's group, is they are looking for followers, and they do not preach in your style because they would not attract people.

Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara's group?

Guru-kṛpā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara Svāmī?

Guru-kṛpā: No, Siddha-svarūpa.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Siddha-svarūpa, oh.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Mr. Dixon: Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains?

Prabhupāda: Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups: starch, carbohydrate, protein, and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, dahl, mean pulses, and wheat, and.... These things contain.... Pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate; and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full..., and offer to Kṛṣṇa, then it's purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasādam. If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Don't think we are vegetarian. We can become anything, provided it is eaten from the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. This is our.... To become vegetarian.... There are many animals who are vegetarians. The monkeys are vegetarian; the goats are vegetarian; the cows are vegetarian. So that is not a good qualification, to become vegetarian and become an animal. Or to become lion, tiger, dog. So either you are vegetarian or meat-eater, there are many animals. So we are not going to be animals. We are going to become human being. This is our philosophy. Grouping ourself to the vegetarian kingdom or nonvege.... The animals.... The tiger is a great nonvegetarian. Fresh blood they want to eat, drink.

Mr. Dixon: Your Grace, do you keep in touch with the world through television or newspapers or the media?

Prabhupāda: Yes, many newspaper, many television men, they come. But we speak our philosophy plainly.

Mr. Dixon: Do you watch TV yourself?

Prabhupāda: No, we have no business. We don't wish to waste our time.

Room Conversation -- April 27, 1976, Auckland, New Zealand:

Prabhupāda: So followers are like that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Like guru, like celā.

Devotee (2): It's a very cheap thing. Very much they're moving on the group spirit.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (2): It's just a personality cult with no philosophy.

Devotee (1): Social club.

Guru-kṛpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, for the abhiṣeka, do we require cow urine and cow dung and tail of cow? Is it...

Prabhupāda: If available, not?

Devotee (1): Yes, we can get it.

Room Conversation with Siddha-svarupa -- May 3, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: What is the use of following (indistinct). We have got that simple thing, you can follow. What is the use? False propaganda. Because you think that we could not accept... (indistinct) ...we are trying to follow the (indistinct).

Hari-śauri: One of the differences that first sprung up between the two groups was that one group was going out when you were saying "Go out and distribute books profusely," so they were going and distributing. And they had various means of doing it. Some were not so good, but still the books were going out. Then the group that split away, they were saying, "Ah, you're disturbing the public by these methods of book distribution. We don't want..." This is what happened in Australia, the one temple in Brisbane. They became very much against the saṅkīrtana methods, and as a result they gave up the saṅkīrtana program altogether and then went to live on farms like this, and they left the temple and the temple was finished. So like this, they were saying that "We're still following Prabhupāda's instructions, but we..." But they were saying that the devotees who were distributing the books, they were not following instructions. Like that.

Prabhupāda: His Divine Grace has said that "You distribute book," and why do you say that?

Hari-śauri: Well, their idea was that because sometimes the public is becoming disturbed by the book distribution, then therefore it's not being done correctly. So it should be stopped.

Prabhupāda: Public may disturb, but we are following our own course of action. It is not obligatory. We are requesting you, "Take this book." That is not obligatory. "If you like, you can take. If you don't like, don't take."

Room Conversation -- May 7, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: I did not study so much. Yes, there is no gorgeousness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In China they all wear the same clothes. Whatever you saw in Russia, China is ten times more oppressive. It is much more oppressive. They say that Russia is a complete failure, because they are allowing so much looseness. The Chinese are accusing the Russians of being very loose and very capitalistic inclined. China is very dissatisfied that Russians have given up the principles of Marx and they have taken after the western ways. Preferring one group above another group.

Prabhupāda: Because Russia was afraid of another revolution. People were preparing. So much pressure, intolerance, after all they are Europeans, so there was a chance of revolution.

Hari-śauri: Especially after Stalin. So many people were killed and sent to prison camps. That was the way that they enforced...

Prabhupāda: Stalin is calculated to be greatest criminal in the world. He has killed so many men. All rogues. We were taken through the neighborhood of all aristocratic men who were killed in the revolution.

Morning Walk -- June 3, 1976, Los Angeles:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While I was in New York, I've been going to the United Nations building there, and there's a organization called ECOSOC, the Economic and Social Council. It's made up of the members of the U.N. and I think there's very good chance that our society can be represented amongst this group as a nongovernmental organization, which means that in various matters which the council discusses, we would be a consultive group and we would be able to present statements as well as literature on how to solve..., on our viewpoint on how to solve various problems facing the council. And these would be distributed to all the United Nations representatives.

Prabhupāda: As soon as you say "God," they will reject.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, actually, one of the things which this council handles is freedom of religion throughout the world.

Prabhupāda: That means they do not believe in God. Freedom of religion means whatever you like, you do.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes. That's a fact.

Morning Walk -- June 3, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's prestigious, and it also allows us to have a lot of information available. Just like, as we're finding out, for example, Rāmeśvara Mahārāja is working with our lawyer here, and we find that we have the legal right to distribute in airports. Legally, we have the right. Similarly, there are legal rights for our saṅkīrtana movement in various countries in the world, and through this group we would get access to all information on what the legal position is and other things of this kind.

Prabhupāda: Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Yes, that's nice.

Rāmeśvara: (Maharishi Mahesh) Yogi, he tried to file a trademark on the words "Transcendental Meditation" with the United States government. So we protested that actually he cannot claim that he is teaching transcendental meditation, what to speak of prohibiting anyone else from using those words. So they accepted our claim and kicked out his application.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Reporter -- June 4, 1976, Los Angeles:

Rāmeśvara: His idea.... His question, Prabhupāda, is also, suppose someone wants to buy a farm or wants to do some new project. Do they ask your permission first?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole society is going on under my direction. Whatever they do, they take my permission and they put into (indistinct). Nothing is allowed without my permission.

Reporter: I wonder if you might have any opinions on some of the leaders of cults and groups in the United States, such as the Divine Light Mission, or the T.M. and so forth. I'm wondering if you have any opinions on Guru Maharaj-ji or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.

Prabhupāda: There are different groups. I know that. But I do not go in detail to understand them. But our..., we have got a crucial test. That anyone who is..., does not know about Kṛṣṇa, he is put into four different types of categories as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. One category is that he is sinful. Another category is that he is rascal. Another category is that he's lowest of the mankind. Another category is that his so-called knowledge is taken away by illusory energy. So this is our test.

Room Conversation with Reporter -- June 4, 1976, Los Angeles:

That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, that

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

Morning Walk -- June 4, 1976, Los Angeles:

Anyone who is not talking about God, he is either of these group: sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind, and knowledge taken away by illusion. This is our conclusion, and that's a fact. Because a person who does not know about God, what he is? He is animal. The animal has no knowledge about God. But a human being, if he poses himself to be very learned, then he must have knowledge about God, otherwise what is his knowledge?

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are digging up bones.

Prabhupāda: That also they cannot say, because we Hindus, we burn the bones. Where you get the bones?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but there's some groups that did not do that.

Prabhupāda: No, some group, not. As a general practice, all Hindus they burn, from time immemorial.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I mean, there are other people in other parts of the world, like in Africa, they found bones from five million years ago, and they say that it's the missing link bones.

Prabhupāda: Missing, why missing?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well they couldn't figure it out until they found these bones.

Prabhupāda: That means they couldn't. Still, he says. Just see, he has brought as if he was dog, the rascal. The dog is prohibited. Man is.... (break) (walk continues on beach) ...They have got?

Rāmeśvara: Other theories

Rādhāvallabha: Theories?

Rāmeśvara: The scientists.

Prabhupāda: Scientists or philosophers, their only business is to defy God. All demons.

Prabhupāda: Actually, we are educating; that's a fact.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many vegetarian societies now.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...they say, Santa Monica?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it is cleaner there.

Rāmeśvara: Yesterday you suggested that I send groups of brahmacāriṇīs to that farm in Oregon where Yamunā-mātājī is staying, but I was thinking that, actually, she is a very, very wonderful preacher, and if she can visit our temples more often, then she can.... In other words, it's more expensive and difficult to send so many people to her...

Prabhupāda: So, do that.

Devotee: The children here are doing as nicely as in Dallas, I've seen.

Prabhupāda: Yes, small groups, small group.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, and it forces all the temples to have a community, which is nice.

Prabhupāda: Government rascals will come, "Do this, do that, do that," and they will never be satisfied, because their business is to tease.

Hari-śauri: Simply to harass.

Prabhupāda: Harass. So that they may not extend this philosophy, no meat-eating, Then their business will be spoiled.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. We represent a threat to them.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore they do not like this program anywhere. No meat-eating, no drinking, no illicit sex. Then what remains? Everything is finished.

Prabhupāda: No, I know that.

Rāmeśvara: It is mostly from parents. Parents have had bad experience that they have lost their children to this movement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's the big propaganda now. The, there's one.... There's a number of men who kidnap, their professional business is to kidnap devotees and other people who belong to other groups like ours. And they're paid by the parents to kidnap the children back, and they call it deprogram the children, deprogramming.

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda saw that article on that Ted Patrick.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I saw it in New York recently, our president, (sic:) Ādikeśa, he went up against Ted Patrick on television, big television show, and he completely defeated him. So Ted Patrick was saying that, you know, these people are all fanatics. So (sic:) Ādikeśa, at the end, he said, so, if we're fanatics, then the Pope is even more fanatical, so why don't you deprogram him? And everybody laughed at that Ted Patrick. (laughter)

Rāmeśvara: He says we teach our.... I mean he has many arguments. He knows all about the incidents in Germany and Japan, and he uses this against us.

Prabhupāda: He's collected all these bad.

Morning Walk -- June 7, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. There was no life.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: But it was a good organization, that's all. On account of good organization, it was going on. But there was no life. The Marwaris, they can organize business very nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First-class, yes. Same thing with even someone like Swami Chinmoyananda's group. It is organized nicely, but there is no...

Prabhupāda: No, no more organization also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really?

Prabhupāda: Organization is also finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Mean.... Dead life organization, how long it will go on? Aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam... If this body is dead, how long keep it alive by simply painting? Is it possible?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: It will decompose.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: A women's group and a men's group.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a women's group with about twenty-five or thirty.

Hari-śauri: The thing is that they're going around and they're soliciting for people to come and join their group, and then immediately they come, they immediately take them into all the details of the gopīs with Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Then let them.... Unless they follow the regulative principles, there is no place for that in the temple. Let them go out.

Rāmeśvara: They are following.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is their fault. They want to utilize the love affairs of Kṛṣṇa and gopīs for their debauchery. That is a support for their debauchery. That is sahajiyā.

Morning Walk -- June 7, 1976, Los Angeles:

in India."

Rāmeśvara: He's thinking that this is a small group.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in India, but now I see it's an easy mentality for anyone's mind that can be adopted. That's why Prabhupāda was stressing.

Rāmeśvara: And as our movement gets more and more members, there will be more and more people who will be exhibiting this sahajiyā tendency.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why it's in every book Prabhupāda speaks about it without fail.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, keep your movement very pure. You don't mind if somebody goes away. Don't mind. But we must keep our principles pure.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I always remember that you said that in the battle sometimes some men may be lost.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is natural.

Morning Walk -- June 7, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Āula bāula, kartābhajā, neḍā, daraveśa, sāṅi sahajiyā, sakhībhekī, smārta, jāta-gosāñi. They are all counted in one group.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing I've noticed, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and I see it as a direct link, that most of these people who get involved like this, they're not engaged in active preaching work, and because of it, their mind has time to create these fantasies and get attracted. Someone who's engaged in forcefully preaching...

Rāmeśvara: He has to be more practical.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Practical and purified by the activity. Have you noticed that? That these people who are engaged, they're all in the Press, or all day writing, or something like this.

Rāmeśvara: Sometimes sitting and painting.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sitting and painting. The boy who's going out every day, trying to think of how to get the books out, he won't be.... (conversation in background) You have come to the hellish planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to deliver us. That's all there is. It's amazing enough you have made such a gigantic movement, but the fact that you have made it with such mlecchas as us is what is most astounding. It's like building a skyscraper with swabs and straw. Building a big skyscraper with straw and mud.

Rāmeśvara: In the Fifth Canto, you've quoted from Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura that the most sacred place in the whole universe is Śrī Māyāpur-dhāma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Garden Conversation -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: After all, imitation is imitation. Sometimes it is perfect imitation.... Perfect cannot be. But as far as possible. But imitation is there. And the material life is imitation. Because material life means we want to imitate God. That is material life. God is all-powerful; we want to become all-powerful. That is material life. And the struggle for existence. Because we cannot become God, it is impossible, but artificially, they are trying to become God. And that is struggle for existence. So material life means imitation. Everyone is struggling to become God. Even when one is so-called liberated, self-realized, just like the Māyāvādī philosophers, they are also writing "Self, my own self," but "I am independent." That is the material disease. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. He's always thinking that "I am independent," which he's not. He's completely under the laws of nature, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27), but he's thinking "I'm independent." That is foolishness. They'll not accept knowledge given by God; they'll manufacture knowledge. That is material disease. And that knowledge is also uncertain. One stalwart man of knowledge is speaking, "I think, I believe," and another stalwart is saying, "No, no, I think, I believe." What is the meaning of this "I think, I believe"? We say "You are all rascals. Whatever you believe, whatever you think, they are all rascaldom." That's all. This is our decision. There are many persons, they are simply saying, "I think, I believe," and we say, "You all people who are thinking independently, believing independently, you are all rascals." That's all. So far our position is concerned, we never say "I think." Whatever we say, we support it immediately by some quotation of the Vedic literature. That is our process. So this morning I was talking with Hari-śauri that our test is this: that because it is written in the Bhagavad-gītā that na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15), so anyone who is not surrendering to God, he's thinking independently, so he is either miscreant, a rascal, lowest of the mankind, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ, all knowledge taken by māyā, in these groups. Our test is very simple. As soon as we see somebody is not thinking as God thinks, as Kṛṣṇa thinks, we take him in either of these groups. That is our test. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ—we see, practically, they do not speak or they do not think as Kṛṣṇa says, but he's thinking independently. Therefore he is mūḍha. His thinking is imperfect, so therefore, he's mūḍha. And because his thinking is imperfect, another mūḍha comes, he says that "I think like this." This is their controversy. So many independent thinking philosophers have spoiled the broth. Too many cooks spoil the broth. Real knowledge is lacking. Hmm? Anyone, any questions? Yes? Just attend to the question.

Garden Conversation -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). The best thing is to follow the formula given by Kṛṣṇa: na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). As soon as one denies the supremacy of God, he is either sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind, in these categories. This is the qualification. So we shall take things very simplified. As soon as we see somebody not Kṛṣṇa conscious, immediately we take him in either of these groups. That's all. Then if he objects, then you come to argument. Hmm? What do you think?

Mādhavānanda: In argument, we can never be defeated.

Prabhupāda: So in the school, college classes, there is sometimes argument?

Satsvarūpa: All the time. (laughter) We always save half the time for questions, and immediately, "How do you know that that is true?" All challenging. "Why should I believe?" "How could God present the scriptures?" All faithless.

Jayādvaita: In this part of the country, I think the students, generally they admit there is God. They're a little pious in this central portion. There are so many farms and they're not so deteriorated.

Prabhupāda: Polluted.

Morning Walk -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda? When we're distributing on this program, we go to very small towns where people are not very much exposed to the degradedness of the big cities, and we're having great success with the people because they are a little more innocent. But we're having a problem with this other group that goes around, and they do saṅkīrtana just like us, but for māyā. And then when we go in the parking...

Prabhupāda: They chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?

Devotee (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Then, that is not possible. (laughter)

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They'll not last.

Devotee (1): But Śrīla Prabhupāda, they mistake us. When we go up and approach them with our books, they think, "Oh, you are this rascal." They know he's a cheater. And it's causing a lot of difficulty with our distribution. I was just wondering what we can do about it.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Hari-śauri: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Satsvarūpa: This Moon group?

Devotee: Moon, yes. Interfering with some...

Mādhavānanda: Preaching is never easy.

Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda said on one tape that.... Somebody said it was difficulty. He said, "When there's fighting, you can't expect it to be easy." (break)

Makhanlāl: There are many different levels of pure devotional service?

Prabhupāda: Pure devotional service is one. So long you are not on the pure platform, there are many. (break)

Makhanlāl: ...between the neophyte devotee who is following the principles.

Prabhupāda: Neophyte devotee is not on the topmost platform. He's learning. (loud foghorn blowing in background)

Makhanlāl: So a neophyte devotee who's following the principles of sādhana-bhakti is still considered pure devotee?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Room Conversation with Ambarisa and Catholic Priest -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Stansky: I wanted to know whether it would be all right to keep the log and to write at the..., work out the outline for the book. You told me to go ahead. So I will do that. Basically, this is what I wanted to do. I would like to continue with the group. I would like to travel with the group and keep an accurate log and start an outline and see possibly within a year's time I will have sufficient material to start the book.

Prabhupāda: That's nice, huh? You like this idea?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) These boys who are working for this movement?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do you like our men, the devotees?

Stansky: Oh, I'm very, very impressed. This impressed me to begin with, their enthusiasm, their joy, and their complete surrender. This is what...

Prabhupāda: This is the qualification.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Kern: I think there are many good signs, however—your own movement. And we have..., I noticed you use the beads. We have a priest, Father Peyton, who gathers thousands to recite the rosary. Mostly young people. There are other movements that gather young people, which require a discipline. And perhaps since we think more in terms of the individual rather than the group, and the individual's decision, we possibly have forgotten that group discipline is very important. Therefore the attraction of your own movement and many others like that.... Within the Roman Catholics, there is now a very hopeful sign of mostly young people who are in what is called the charismatic movement, seeking to learn more of the Holy Spirit, seeking to change their lives for the better-however, at the same time, staying involved in the world. And it could be said that they seek to carry on the redemptive work of Jesus that he wishes done in the world, since he would be the key to our, to our advancement in the world. Our advancement, I say, and I'm not speaking of myself as a young man. But I think many young people in this charismatic movement, this is within Protestants and Catholics and others, I would say. There's a great emphasis among Jewish young people in the schools, to the development of the Jewish religion.

Prabhupāda: What is the difference? Can you explain? Young..., I have been several times inquired that why young people coming in this movement? What is the reason?

Jayādvaita: The specific qualification of our movement is that Śrīla Prabhupāda is giving information very scientifically in understanding God as the Supreme Person.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Kern: I suppose that theology, study of God, is quite specific. Now whether would that information be given to groups, yes, I think so. We would speak of God as revealing Himself to us in very many ways. And therefore a group as large as this.... For example, tonight, Tuesday, there would be meetings of young people, Roman Catholics—and probably Protestants too, but I'm just thinking of Roman Catholic young people—who would be praying very earnestly and searching for God's revelation to them through their friends, neighbors, and their own experience of God. I don't know if.... I'm not familiar with the charismatic movement yet, so I'm only speaking in great generalities.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The difficulty I have found by my personal experience with these groups is that it couldn't give me a concrete enough realization, neither a whole practical lifestyle by which I could stay on the platform of God realization. You can go to the meeting, but then when you go out in the society you're forced to act in so many sinful ways because of the conditioning and the advertising and the force of pressure in the society. But even.... I lived in a Trappist monastery in Spencer, Massachusetts, with the monks there, and there was still that gap between how I could not only fulfill my own spiritual life there, but also how to help others in theirs, without losing my purity. And that I've been able to find in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, because it gives you a twenty-four-hour a day program to remain in God consciousness.

Prabhupāda: In our Bhagavad-gītā there is a verse. Find out:

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

(BG 7.28)

Those who are addicted to sinful life, they cannot understand God. So therefore we have to stop sinful activities. If you keep them in sinful activities, and if you expect that God will be revealed to them, it is not possible.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Kern: Are you speaking specifically about all animal killing, Your Excellency? Or, how do you speak of animal killing? In other words, vegetarian living, is that what you're speaking of?

Prabhupāda: No, animal means the four-legged animals. Vegetables are not called animals, even in dictionary.

Kern: Does the group live a vegetarian life, without any meat? Is that what you're saying?

Scheverman: I see. That's a basic principle of your way of life, is not eating any meat, any flesh.

Prabhupāda: The verse..., I think there is no Bhāgavata here. The Second Canto, I think, it is said,

nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād

bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt

ka uttamaśloka guṇānuvādāt

pumān virajyeta vinā paśu-ghnāt

(SB 10.1.4)

The glorification of the Lord is done by the liberated persons. It is so nice, glorification of the Lord. So who can refrain from the glorification of the Lord unless he is animal killer? It is said there.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Kern: The origin of the group, where...? Who was the original founder, Your Excellency? The original founder of the group?

Prabhupāda: Which group?

Kern: This group, your group, Kṛṣṇa movement.

Prabhupāda: I am the founder, I am the founder.

Kern: You founded it.

Prabhupāda: In 1966.

Scheverman: 1966. And you utilized the traditions of oriental, especially Indian origin.

Prabhupāda: This book, this book. We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is.

Scheverman: So this is a collection of the ancient writings as well as modern writings that reflect the way of life.

Prabhupāda: This is the summary of all Vedic literature.

Kern: Of what kind of literature?

Prabhupāda: Vedic.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Scheverman: So your particular plan is then to provide this kind of enlightenment, this kind of direction and education, through the ascetical process in which your group is involved. Yes. We, of course, have made efforts along this line through our schools and through our religious communities that have been successful more or less depending on efforts given to it.

Prabhupāda: The second-class man is also described, who is the second class.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas," or the administrators.

Prabhupāda: This is second class. They are not first class, they are second class. First class is above mentioned.

Scheverman: The brāhmaṇa

Prabhupāda: Yes, then second class. Second class also required.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: No, our process is that everyone who is hungry, come and take your food. But our program is going on, but feeding the poor is automatically there. If anyone comes to our temple, even here, anyone comes and take prasāda.

Kern: Couldn't get in. If a poor person came here, they could not get in to eat. (laughing)

Makhanlāl: No, we have many people coming from the neighborhood here. They are coming regularly. Even young children. Everything. They are coming. We have groups, community groups are coming.

Kern: Oh, do you? Very good, that's fine.

Scheverman: And we too. We have always responded to those who have a need for food or clothing or shelter. This comes to us every day, too.

Kern: But to make a person ask is not the right kind of society. Shouldn't, if a person be the first-class citizen and therefore independent and therefore seek his own so that he could serve God by his own intelligence and his independence.... There's no virtue to be giving; it's more of a virtue to receive.

Jayādvaita: He's suggesting that because we are requiring that a person come to us for food, that somehow this is interfering with his independence.

Prabhupāda: Where is that independence? With his family he can come and take food. What is wrong there? We say that we should not..., we are not simply supplying food. Anyone who is coming, he is getting spiritual education. Not that it is a free hotel. No. It is not that. We give them spiritual education. You come here, you take your shelter, you take your food and learn how to be first-class man. That is our program. Don't be implicated in sinful activities. Be God conscious and live here with us comfortably, take your food. We have got this nice palace.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is work on higher authority.

Kern: In other words, there would be no election. Like if you go to San Francisco...

Prabhupāda: No, I have got my secretaries. I have got about twenty secretaries who are in charge of some group of temples.

Scheverman: I see. And you appoint the secretaries then who are in charge of the groups, each local group.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I try to manage as far as possible, but I'm not getting any government's cooperation. It is all my personal endeavor.

Scheverman: Do you hope to acquire school buildings for teaching school?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? If there is arrangement for financing such school we can start, very nice.

Kern: Father would sell you a fine school.

Scheverman: We have a building that will be available shortly (laughs) if you want to start a school.

Prabhupāda: So let us cooperate.

Room Conversation -- June 17, 1976, Toronto:

Viśvakarmā: 'Cause all the Christians have their churches, and we are the only church for them. The other...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Then you can (can't(?)) allow it.

Viśvakarmā: There are four temples in Toronto of other Indian groups. But they are political and social. The people really don't like them. And they don't have Deities like we have.

Prabhupāda: That is a farce. That is not temple. In London also there are Hindu Center, this, that. All nonsense. Now they are installing Deity. But it is not taken care of properly.

Viśvakarmā: They invited me, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to visit one of their Sunday services, and I went, and they had a fire, an installation of the Deities. They had one brāhmaṇa, and they had a small Deity of Viṣṇu, and he had the fire sacrifice in four minutes, and then they installed the Deity on the altar. That was it.

Prabhupāda: They, what do they know?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The press reporter's here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)

Interview with Professors O'Connell, Motilal and Shivaram -- June 18, 1976, Toronto:

Devotee: Well, the previous owner didn't want to sell it to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They said they'd prefer to burn it down. (Prabhupāda laughs) One Indian gentleman who is a prominent businessman in Toronto purchased it in trust, saying that he was representing some Indian social group. So he purchased it in trust. Then the chairman of the committee of trustees who were in charge of selling the church noticed some tilaka on Viśvakarmā's face. He had a hat on so his śikhā wouldn't show. When he saw it was Hare Kṛṣṇa, he became very disturbed.

Viśvakarmā: He said, "Oh, no, the Hare Kṛṣṇas."

Prabhupāda: So they are not very favorable to the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. (laughs)

Indian man: How long did it take for Swamiji to write the seventeen volumes, translation of Caitanya-caritāmṛta?

Prabhupāda: It can be finished, but I have to look after this management, that is the difficulty.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking about the Caitanya-caritāmṛtas.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā, it is finished.

Hari-śauri: How long did it take?

Prabhupāda: Oh. It took one year and six months.

Guest (1): When do you usually write?

Prabhupāda: I write in the night. I get up at half past twelve. I go to bed at half past ten, and I get up at half past twelve. Then I finish my chanting, if there is any balance, and then I begin dictating. And the morning they take it and type it. So this dictaphone is always with me, wherever I go, so my writing book is not stopped. Maybe few pages, but something is there daily. Little drops of water wears the stone. So in that way we have translated so many books. About fifty-four books are already published, besides the small booklets.

Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Kīrtanānanda: Barking for the last thirty years.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody has criticized them. They have taken it seriously; otherwise, why they have published? Yes, that's right. What they have done except barking? "I am American," "I am Russian," "I am this," "I am that," that's all. If you keep them dogs and hogs and, nicely dressed, they go to United Nations and talk of unity, is it possible? Can the dogs and hogs can unite? Common sense. You bring all the dogs of this neighborhood and ask them "Don't bark now. Live peacefully," (laughter) will they be able? (laughs) The United Nation is like that. They're kept as dogs and they're advised, "Now keep peacefully." Is it possible? They have no common sense even. First of all, let them become human beings. Conference is going on, big conference, and Jawaharlal Nehru has imitated, that in the conference there are different languages, different..., but if somebody is speaking in any language you'll hear it in your own language. Remember? In New Delhi he has done that. This rascal thought, "Now I am finished, I have done my duty." All rascals. (japa) Thus our definition, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's either in these four groups, bas, final. You just try to prove it. Hm? Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? You have any doubt about it?

Kīrtanānanda: No.

Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Whether this is fact. It is fact, but even if we do not accept it, what is the wrong there, find out. We don't find any wrong, everything. Because Kṛṣṇa said it, then it's all right. Because they will say it is too sectarian, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's the most miscreant, sinful and ass and lowest of the mankind; he has lost his all knowledge. This is our accusation. Now defend. Any gentleman will protest that "I am such a respectable gentleman, and because I do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I'll fall amidst these groups? What is this?" They will say. Now you'll have to prove, that "You are not a gentleman."

Kīrtanānanda: Gentleman means one who is cultured. So culture is not of the body but of knowledge.

Prabhupāda: But what do you mean by culture? First of all, the question will be "What do you mean by culture?"

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's some idea of progress involved, advancement of life. Otherwise, there's no need for any kind of progress. One remains as a child.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Culture means advancement in knowledge. We say, "You're a gentleman of culture." That means he's advanced in knowledge. So what is the advancement of knowledge? Next question will be.

Prabhupada Inspects New BTG -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Reporter: "But if society is divided into different groups, won't there be envy?"

Prabhupāda: "No, no. Just as in my body there are different parts that work together, so the society can have different parts working for the same goal. My hand is different from my leg, but when I tell the hand, 'Bring a glass of water,' the leg will help. The leg is required and the hand is required."

Reporter: "But in the Western world we have a working class and a capitalist class, and there is always warfare going on between the two."

Prabhupāda: "Yes, the capitalist class is required and the working class is also required."

Reporter: "But they are fighting."

Prabhupāda: "Because they are not trained up, they have no common cause. The hand and leg work differently, but the common cause is to maintain the body. So if you find out the common cause for both the capitalists and the workers, then there will be no fighting. But if you do not know the common cause, then there will always be fighting."

Garden Discussion on Bhagavad-gita Sixteenth Chapter -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: What is that? Explain further.

Hari-śauri: The Mafia is an organization that was originally coming from Sicily. They were an organized group of men that would control all the politics in the area by manipulation of money and businessmen.

Devotee (1): And violence.

Hari-śauri: And violence. So many things they'd do. They used to organize all the heroin that comes into the country, like this, for revenue, to get revenue, money. So many things. And places like Las Vegas, which is a big gambling city, that is also run by the Mafia. They control all the casinos and they control the police, they pay everyone off, like that, and if they don't agree, they kill them. So like this, their influence is spread everywhere, any illegal things that are going on.

Prabhupāda: Terrorism.

Room Conversation -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: The black men.

Hari-śauri: No, just the people in general, for happiness. Because they understand that if there are so many different groups, then there will always be fighting and dissent. So they are always looking for some compromise how to get the groups to live together.

Prabhupāda: This is equal—Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise not.

Hari-śauri: No. Materially speaking, they've tried so many ways to integrate the black with the whites here in America, but what has actually happened is, through those efforts, they've created a worse situation. By deliberately forcing black children and white children to go to the same schools... Sometimes they have what's called here bussing. It's a big major issue in politics now. Because they take all the black children and they take them to a white area just so that they can go to the school there. They actually take them further away from their local schools to another school, where it is all white children, so that they'll integrate and mix. So it's very controversial.

Prabhupāda: The parents won't like.

Garden Conversation -- June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Then? It is the same thing. Suppose Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja has brought this car, so he says, "All of you can come." So I go, you go, does it mean that you and your spiritual master is equal? Do you think like that? It is same thing. Everyone can go to Godhead, there is no doubt, but still there is difference between brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, śūdras. So far going into the car, the equal right is there, but it does not mean that your spiritual master or the next group, they are not greater than you. Don't think like that. The same car, Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is driving, I am also there, you are also there. Does it mean that we are all equal? There must be gradation. The right is given to everyone. It does not mean that immediately they become all one. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He accepted everyone, "Come on." But the distinction is there. We are inviting everyone to partake Kṛṣṇa prasādam. That does not mean that immediately all of them have become of the equal rank. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was so kind, but still there was distinction. When He was taking prasādam, personal associates, they were sitting with Him. Is it not? So this is called maryādā. Maryādā means honor. That must... Varieties must be there. Otherwise we become Māyāvādīs—everything is equal, all one. This is Māyāvāda philosophy.

Garden Conversation -- June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban:

yourself."

Prabhupāda: That is the proper treatment. (laughter)

Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one common philosophy also held by a lot of religious groups that God can be understood directly from within, and that no guru or spiritual master is necessary. If I desire to approach God, and if He's all-powerful, He can instruct me from within. They feel like this. Therefore they dispute our claim that we understand God in a different way, that you need a genuine spiritual master. And yet when we approach them, one man will say he has God within his heart and he understands God in this way, and another man is receiving instruction from God from within the heart, and yet he's saying another thing.

Prabhupāda: So?

Devotee (2): Yet, they continue to claim like that, so...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, when God teaches Arjuna... His realization from within should be the same as Kṛṣṇa is teaching to Arjuna. It should be confirmed by śāstra.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He was saying that these people say "God is instructing me from within," but they all have different philosophies.

Prabhupāda: But he's a rascal, and who accepts him, he's a rascal. How do you think that God is speaking to him? How do you accept it? How do you accept that God is speaking to him?

Devotee (2): Well, I don't accept it.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So can all people have an equal interest in religion despite their different classifications?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already explained, that any human civilized man, he has got some religion. So religion, basic principle of religion is with reference to God. So here is God, What God says, if you take that system, then it will be perfect, not only for the Hindus, for Christian, for Mohammedans, for everyone. And that is being practically done in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We have got devotees from all groups of human society and they are taking to it. It is practical. There is no difficulty. So Hindus, Muslims, Christian, everyone take to this Kṛṣṇa religion, Kṛṣṇite. Kṛṣṇian. (laughter) Not Christian, but Kṛṣṇian. The word christo is also a Greek word. From this christo the Christ has come. So instead of c-h-r-i, k-r-i, the same thing. Christian or Kṛṣṇian, or Christian. Krishta is also another broken, I mean, another spelling of Kṛṣṇa. In India, if one's name is Kṛṣṇa, we say Krishta. My younger brother, his name was Kṛṣṇa. So we were calling him Krishta. So Krishta, Christian. So actually, if we take the root meaning, Christian means Krishnian or Krishtian. So that is a controversial point, but everyone can take to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be settled up. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... (BG 18.66). Make everything clear.

Morning Walk -- July 4, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: They have become less intelligent on account of their bad habits.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This man, there's a Professor Mitra, he's in Emory University in Department of Sociology. They claim he's a Vedantist, and they have a group. And this Das, actually his name was Das, he told me that he has Śrīla Prabhupāda's Bhagavad-gītā As It Is and worships it, he recites every day. And he told me that he praises very much, that it's the best Gītā he has seen. So although he's involved in something else, but still he's taking Śrīla Prabhupāda's.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any man who is reasonable, he'll come. If he's animal, he cannot come. That is the difference. The first charge is that anyone who is in bodily concept of life, he's animal. First of all, refute. If you are thinking that "I am this body," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that," then you are animal. This is our first charge. What they will answer? What is the difference? If a dog is thinking "I am dog," and I am thinking "I am Indian" or "American," what is the difference? What is the difference between the dog and the man? That first charge should be answered.

Room Conversation -- July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: That you do, but the position is like this. Our conclusion is that whatever they are saying, that is imperfect. That is not possible. And that is a fact. Therefore they change, after fifty years, they change. Because it's speculation. Therefore we say totally they are wrong, and they will take totally "From mythology," like that, this is going on.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now one aspect in that, now in Christian group also, some are trying to preach that these things are created by God, but they have a problem there.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact, everything is created by God. It is being done by one, that Supreme. We are simply studying how it is acting. Otherwise everything is being done by Him. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). That is a fact. How He is working so nicely, that is the subject matter of our study, or something is explained in the śāstra or something has been studied by these material scientists, but the things are being done by the supreme arrangement of manager. That is a fact.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The difficulty in this Christian aspect is that they claim that it was created about five thousand years ago. That is the reason why we want to bring up this...

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. (laughter)

Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla -- July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Dr. Sukla: Therefore you are doing so with tremendous success.

Prabhupāda: Yes, people say that "Swamiji, you have done wonder, you have..." so on, so on, so on. But I do not know what is wonder. I know it is certain that I have not adulterated. That much I know. But I do not know how to play wonders. That I do not know. But I am certain that I have not adulterated what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. And I study everything by the crucial test of Kṛṣṇa's teaching. That's all. Kṛṣṇa says:

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

Room Conversation With Scientists -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

As soon as we see that somebody is not Kṛṣṇa conscious or Kṛṣṇa's devotee, I take them immediately he's a duṣkṛtina, he's a mūḍha, he's a narādhama. "Oh, he's educated!" māyāyapahṛta-jñānā. Finish. Our study finish. We take it immediately that here is a māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. That's all. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Because he denies to accept Kṛṣṇa, he must be within this group. Duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. So people will be sorry or happy, we take them like that, that "Here is a duṣkṛtina," that's all.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that, that is not given. But they, all these metals, they are different forms of earth. You find in ores.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are all impure.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, you have to purify, but they are in the group of earth. We have to purify. Gold is also purified. It is taken from the mine, it is not pure gold. You have to treat it, then pure gold comes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that treatment must involve a lot of process.

Prabhupāda: That may be, but by treating you can get, that's all. The metallurgists, they know.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So actually the Vedas must have known these techniques, because otherwise they cannot get this gold so easily.

Prabhupāda: No, there are gold mountains also.

Room Conversation With Scientists -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: That is spiritual variety.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Spiritual variety.

Prabhupāda: There is no difference.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That doesn't mean that it is complex, Śrīla Prabhupāda, yes?

Prabhupāda: No, there is no complexity.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One point, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that matter as it is, it has not even a specific form or pattern as compared with matter associated with life. When matter is associated with life it has specific groups of forms meant for a definite purpose and function. Now this is lacking when matter is left as it is. For example...

Prabhupāda: Yes, matter is utilized for the purpose of spirit soul. Otherwise matter has no independent existence. The whole thing is matter, but it is formed according to the desire of the spirit.

Hari-śauri: So if matter is inferior to the spirit soul, then isn't it correct to say that the spirit soul is more complex or sophisticated than matter? If matter is inferior?

Prabhupāda: Spirit soul is living. Naturally he has got desires. That is not complexity. That is a symptom of life.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: They should be trained up. Therefore Vedic civilization is training. Some section of the people, they should be very intellectuals, brain, just like to maintain this body we require first of all the brain. If the brain is not order, then other parts, they may be there, but they are also useless. So similarly, in the society, some intellectuals should be maintained. They are called brāhmaṇas, and some of the brāhmaṇas, they are sannyāsīs. They are simply meant for giving good instruction. They should personally become very good and intellectual, and they should give instruction to other people what is the value of life, how to live. This is one section. They should be free from the anxiety of maintaining themselves. The society should treat them as children and give them all necessities, bare necessities, not they are meant for living very luxuriously. No. Simple living. Then the next class, kṣatriyas, the politicians, administrators, they are also required to give protection to the people from injury. Kṣatriya, kṣat means injury, and trāyate, "one who saves people from injury." It is kṣatriya's duty. So kṣatriya should protect all the living entities, including the animals. They are also subjects. So the first, intellectual brāhmaṇas, then kṣatriya. Then vaiśyas, their business is to produce food. Food production you can do by agriculture, kṛṣi, and by giving protection to the cows. If you get sufficient food grains, like rice, wheat, pulses, and sufficient milk—from milk you get yogurt, butter, ghee—then your all food problem is solved. You must eat. You must eat, you must live properly. So this first, second, third, the intellectual class, the administrative class, and the productive class, these three classes must be there in the society. And those who cannot be grouped either of these three classes, they should generally help as workers. They are called śūdras. So the workers means... Suppose you require a sitting place: the carpenter is there. Suppose you require a knife: so the blacksmith is there. You require clothing: the weaver is there. In this way, four classes of men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I asked, there's another very special magazine came out, and I asked Rādhāvallabha to bring it and present it to you. It's from New York, but I wanted him to read some of the things. He read the whole thing, it's a whole magazine devoted to meditation groups, and they have featured our society as the best. It's clear, our society was featured more than any others. They mentioned Maharishi and so many others, but they gave...

Prabhupāda: We are also mentioned.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They gave us the most space in the magazine.

Hari-śauri: They did it in sections. There was a bit about kīrtana, there was a section about shaving the head, there's a whole section about Kṛṣṇa prasādam, how to offer it and cook it and everything. It was very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's getting it ready. He wants to read you certain things in the magazine. He likes to prepare things to discuss with you, Rādhāvallabha, controversial topics.

Prabhupāda: What is that controversial? (laughter)

Rādhāvallabha: They have here proof that his mantra is no different than any ordinary sound. It says "In a Stanford Research Institute experiment, a group of TM trainees was compared to a control group who had been taught a fake mantra that they believed would be effective. In both groups some subjects were able to bring unpleasant psychosomatic symptoms under control. Three of these dropped out of the TM training group. Their symptoms returned. Two dropped out of the control group; their symptoms came back too. Evidence like that suggests that whatever works in the TM system, it does not depend upon the mystical mantra."

Prabhupāda: Let their men come and talk with our men in a public meeting. Then people will understand what is the difference.

Prabhupāda: He has also come?

Rādhāvallabha: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His group is big here. He's very popular in America.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were doing this in Bhopal. In Bhopal, we were there when we had our Jeeps. So in the same place we were staying they let this group Rajneesh do it. So they were going with that mantra, "Who who." So we were standing out from the balcony shouting, "Kṛṣṇa, that's who." Every morning they would do that meditation, and we would answer "Kṛṣṇa." (laughter)

Hari-śauri: They call his method "chaotic meditation."

Prabhupāda: They say?

Hari-śauri: That's the heading, it says "Chaotic Meditation."

Rādhāvallabha: That's the name of it. After they go "Who who who who who who..."

Prabhupāda: What about..., what they have written about us?

Rādhāvallabha: About us?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A big article.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. The group above are performing a kīrtana, the chanting of the names of Kṛṣṇa, the Vedic Deity they believe to be the supreme personification of Godhead. They are shown before the doorway of one Astor Plaza in Manhattan's Times Square area. Their chant, increasingly familiar on street corners in all large cities across the country, runs, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.' These Kṛṣṇa devotees belong to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, ISKCON, less formally known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement and still less formally to the man in the street as the Harry Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Actually, Prabhupāda, one...

Prabhupāda: Harry Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Still more?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "After the sermon, more chanting. Now it really becomes frantic, and even compelling. Many curious first-time visitors begin to take up the mahāmantra chant. The hard-core group at the shrine seems to be completely carried away. The terrazo floor literally vibrates. Gradually the crowd begins to thin. Other things are happening in the center. On the third floor there is a traditional Vedic play in costume, acted with enthusiasm." (sound of kīrtana)

Hari-śauri: It's going downstairs somewhere, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Ādi-keśava: They're getting everybody together to go out on saṅkīrtana party.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "On the second floor there is a store which attracts many visitors who want to buy Indian costumes, jewelry and the movement's books. Prasādam is served in the basement restaurant. Visitors eat at tables in the same area where monks had breakfast on the floor. The prasādam features Hindu dishes served in the compartments of plasticized paper mess trays." Then it goes on. Now there's another article about you. Why are they holding a kīrtana now?

Ādi-keśava: They're getting a kīrtana party together to go out on hari-nāma down at Times Square (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Hmm. What does he say?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Prabhupāda, ācārya-founder, born Abhay Caran De in India in 1895, the founder, future founder-ācārya, spiritual leader of ISKCON, came under the spiritual direction of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja, ascetic scholar and preacher who had devoted his life to the spread of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Umhm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Others insist that the style of shaving the head identifies devotees of various spiritual orders. The long śikhās marks a man as a follower of Kṛṣṇa. Still another group says that the head-shaving simply stands for renunciation of the material world, its values and its pleasures. One or more of those reasons may be the true one. Possibly all of them have a multi-determined, have multi-determined the Kṛṣṇa cut. The how of the cut is simplicity itself. Commonly two men cut each others hair. Our pictures show how. Phase one of the cutting, known as the buzz-off, is done with ordinary..." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Buzz off? (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "...is done with ordinary hair clippers. The post buzz-off effect..." (laughter)

Rūpānuga: This guy's made a science out of it. (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "...shown in the second picture. Next, the prickly sconce."

Prabhupāda: What is that meaning?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prickly sconce.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, he has given more pages for our movement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, he's given us three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve pages. And the whole magazine, including many advertisements..., actually the nonadvertised part is about fifty-five pages, of which we have twelve. At least one fifth of the book is for Hare Kṛṣṇa. The other groups only have three pages, four pages. And he blasts them mostly. Some of them are really nonsense. Here's one called the Deichman experiment. You stare at a vase...

Prabhupāda: Another meditation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, this is another one. Deichman experiment. Then they have one about Zen Buddhism, it shows Zen meditation. Here's a Zen master sitting in front of a basketball. I don't know why.

Ādi-keśava: They have a meditation that they call Zen basketball.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Ādi-keśava: They're trying to use all kinds of machines and wires to measure consciousness. They have one group that has tin cans attached to wires, and they hold them in their hand, and then they measure it on the machine as they meditate. And when they meditate right, the needle on the machine goes right in the middle, and they think they have achieved perfection.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here is an article called "Travels Beyond the Body: what is it that travels, and what is it that's seen?" They're talking about traveling beyond your body. Here's an advertisement, "Because I have taken the mystery out of transcendental meditation, I will teach you to master transcendental meditation in a single evening." "About the author." Then it says, "Free private mantra based on your own name, selected by the great Norbell, translated by his special Sanskrit system, so that no one else in America has the same mantra twice. No other system of transcendental meditation..."

Prabhupāda: What is this? Maharishi?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi?

Hari-śauri: No, this is competition.

Evening Darsana -- July 11, 1976, New York:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's another group called Arika.(?) This Arika(?) costs three thousand dollars, this process. They charge three thousand dollars for a ninety-day course.

Ādi-keśava: Part of their whole meditation is they have cocktail parties. They drink liquor and they have these therapy, and they charge him money to go to a cocktail party, they call it yoga.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, it's got a good article about us. You want to keep it to show guests who come the article?

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Hari-śauri: Anyone who reads that magazine will immediately become attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there's no comparison.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's got the best article I've ever seen though, about us, in great detail. It really reports the details.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. This is also good article. (break) Hm! Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa, where is the key? Key? Distribute this prasādam.

Hari-śauri: He said he can understand meat-eating is sin, but when we are doing our ordinary work and normal functions, aren't we killing so many other things? So is that sin or not?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also sin. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that whatever you eat, bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). Anyone is cooking something, meat or vegetables, for his own eating, he is eating only sin. It is not that the vegetarians are not sinful and the meat-eaters are sinful. Everyone is sinful if it is not cooked for Kṛṣṇa. It is not that we are propagating that you become vegetarian. We are propagating that you become Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our propaganda. But because we are trying to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, we offer something to Kṛṣṇa. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So not patraṁ puṣpam, whatever within this group available, fruits, flowers, grains, milk, so we offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you do not perform yajña, then you will be bound up by the resultant action. So this is yajña, to offer to Kṛṣṇa. Yajña means to satisfy Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-ārādhyate. Yajña means satisfy Kṛṣṇa. But if you don't Kṛṣṇa's prasādam, then you are sinful. Not that if you become vegetarian, then you are not sinful. Not that. Because you have to eat something. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Either you eat vegetable or meat, you have to eat something. So somebody prefers eating animals, and somebody prefers eating vegetables, but all of them have got life. Therefore you cannot kill any life. So if you eat for yourself, then you are simply eating sin. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt. But if you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, then if there is any sin, it goes to Kṛṣṇa, you take pure prasādam. And Kṛṣṇa is apāpa-vidham. So our duty is to worship Kṛṣṇa and offer Him so many nice things—fruits, flowers, grains, milk, milk preparation. We are doing that. You are taking prasādam. So that is our business.

Morning Walk -- July 13, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: ...to discredit the Vedic literature.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's just like a bunch of demons.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like it's such a concerted effort, a conspiracy of all the leaders of the world.

Rāmeśvara: Greed conspiracy. Leaders, the bankers they say.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's another deep point. Scientists are pointing to the bankers, each group points to the other, and they all cheat together. Just like we used to do... (indistinct)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These demons, Śrīla Prabhupāda, all of them are dehātma-buddhi?

Prabhupāda: Yes, all they have... (end)

Interview with Newsweek -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Not yet settled up. Not yet settled up.

Interviewer: So what process would the Hare Kṛṣṇas...?

Prabhupāda: We have got secretaries. They are managing.

Rāmeśvara: He has appointed from all the disciples a group of secretaries. Each one is in charge of a different sector of the world.

Interviewer: How many secretaries?

Rāmeśvara: Presently there is eighteen.

Interviewer: And so that group of eighteen secretaries will choose another leader?

Prabhupāda: I am training each one of them as leader so that they can spread extensively. That is my idea.

Interviewer: So, in other words, you started this whole movement here in the United States ten years ago. Would you say that the United States had the most active, financially, group of followers.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Rāmeśvara: She wants to know, seeing you chose the United States to begin this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement ten years ago, now do you find that in the United States there is the most active membership financially speaking. In terms of contributing to this movement, supporting the movement, is the best field America?

Prabhupāda: No, without finance we can go on.

Interview with Newsweek -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Just like... These are all discussed in the Bhagavad-gītā, what kind of social arrangement should be. That... It is called varṇāśrama-dharma. A brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha—these are different groups, and if they are favorably trained up then spiritual understanding becomes very easy.

Interviewer: Can you tell me a little bit about the future direction of the movement, how you plan to expand.

Prabhupāda: That is... That is going on already. Just like these boys, they did not know about Kṛṣṇa some years ago, but they are taking seriously. The same process, if it is continued, then people will take.

Rāmeśvara: In other words, Prabhupāda sees that if we just continue the programs that he has introduced, just like we have already become members, similarly, many others will continue to become members in the future if we just continue the same programs which made us members, namely the chanting of the mantra, distributing of the books, distribution of the...

Prabhupāda: And following the regulative principles.

Interview with Religious Editor Of the Associated Press -- July 16, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Yes, so our business is to educate them that "Your hammering business is not your life. Your freedom is real business."

Interviewer: Freedom is what?

Prabhupāda: Real business.

Interviewer: You've, I'm sure you've heard or read about these claims by these parent groups that claim that the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement members are, ah, sort of controlled by intensive indoctrination? Brain-washed they call it, you know, by getting up and having the two hours or three of chanting in the morning and prayer beads constantly and the group life, that they're sort of controlled, and denied their freedom. What do you say about that?

Prabhupāda: It is due to misunderstanding. They do not understand what kind of preaching, what kind of education we are giving. We are giving education how to become free from the hammering business in the jail. They think hammering business and keep oneself within the jail is the real life because they have been accustomed to that. And when we speak that "Hammering or to keep within the jail is not your real business: your real business is freedom," naturally they find contradiction, and they think that we are doing something against their business. That is the difficulty.

Interview with Religious Editor Of the Associated Press -- July 16, 1976, New York:

Bali-mardana: With God.

Prabhupāda: That is my real home. That means every temple is my home.

Interviewer: Did you work out the spiritual disciplines for the group yourself? I mean about the morning chanting and the recital of the two thousand Hare Kṛṣṇas a day and... Did you work those out yourself?

Prabhupāda: Still I am working.

Interviewer: Still working, on those disciplines.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you see, I have got, these men, they have got.

Bali-mardana: He's saying did you think of these things yourself, to chant on the beads and follow the program in the morning, have you made these up yourself?

Prabhupāda: No, this is the disciplic process.

Interview with Trans-India Magazine -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: So this is the civilization of the asuras, and without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, without any knowledge of Kṛṣṇa or without any knowledge of the Kṛṣṇa's instruction, people are grouped as duṣkṛtina, miscreants; mūḍhas, rascals; narādhama, lowest of the mankind. And if you say that "So many people, they are educated highly in the university, how they can be taken as miscreants, rascals and lowest of the mankind?" the answer is māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. They have got knowledge, so-called knowledge, but they are lacking in real knowledge. Knowledge means to get out of distress. That is knowledge. But the real distress remains as it is. They cannot avoid death, they cannot avoid birth, they cannot avoid old age. And still they are claiming they are making progress in happiness. So that is called illusion.

Room Conversation -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: So everything is given with logic and argument. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). First of all He's grouped among the incarnations, but Kṛṣṇa is not incarnation. He's bhagavān svayam.

Indian man: He comes original.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you argue against the authority of Bhāgavatam, then that argument has no value.

Indian man: That's where the problem in India is. Everyone is saying God is Mahā-Viṣṇu, and Kṛṣṇa and Rāma are only avatāras, and that's where the big argument came in. In fact, I talked to so many...

Prabhupāda: Otherwise why Sūta Gosvāmī, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28)? And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). So how one can say like that? That means less intelligent. If Kṛṣṇa... If one accepts the authority of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). Then how they falsely say? Aham ādir hi devānām.

Room Conversation -- July 18, 1976, New York:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They said it was very orderly.

Prabhupāda: And that cannot be expected from any other group, only in this group. Such a huge crowd, and there was not a single instance of violence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Except that one tie. One boy was punched out.

Hari-śauri: (referring to 7-UP) I sent someone out.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The procession was very well attended.

Prabhupāda: Television.

Bali-mardana: Oh, yes, ABC, CBS, and Channel Five.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All of the GBC men said it was the biggest single festival ever held in ISKCON's history. They all admitted that there was no festival ever held anywhere, even in India, no single festival in India. There was not any one day at any pandal where there was that many people who took prasādam and who attended such a long procession for two hours.

Prabhupāda: I think in the beginning... (microphone rattling) You were there.

Room Conversation -- July 18, 1976, New York:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There were devotees from Miami, Gainesville, Atlanta, Washington, Baltimore, Boston, Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, Los Angeles, Vancouver, South America—all over South America, I think. A gigantic turnout of devotees. Very international group.

Bali-mardana: This could be like Lord Caitanya used to invite all His devotees to come and see Him at Ratha-yātrā...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bali-mardana: Similarly, if you come here, we can invite...

Prabhupāda: I'll come.

Bali-mardana: ...from all the temples.

Prabhupāda: I'll come.

Bali-mardana: Then you do not have to travel so much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we will make all arrangements. This year is nothing. Next year we will make ten times more arrangements if you come, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: From anywhere, I'll come.

Room Conversation -- July 19, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one is not, it's not bad, but it's not so accurate. "In size it was dwarfed by 'Operation Sale.' In popular concern it was outweighed by the Democratic National Convention. But for hundreds of Hare Kṛṣṇa followers, including many Indian immigrants to New York, yesterday's Ratha-yātrā festival was by far the most important event in an eventful month. Pulling three brightly-colored chariots down Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, the religious group's adherents were celebrating one of the oldest holy days of the Indian calendar, the feast of Jagannātha, the Lord of the Universe, according to Kṛṣṇa doctrine. Most of the participants in the parade were young Westerners, followers from as far away as Caracas and Montreal. But the crowd included hundreds of Indians who brought the basic Kṛṣṇa faith with them from Bombay and Calcutta."

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that nice. "Like many other immigrant groups who preserved their forms of worship once they came to America, the Indians who watched or participated in the parade were pleased to see that they could keep the faith even in New York City." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: These rascals, let them come, they become baḍa sāheb.

Car Ride -- July 20, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: When another came?

Rāmeśvara: Not in the same way. This city has so many, they have so many different groups, religious groups and minority groups from other parts of the world, they call it a melting pot. So they accept us because they've accepted so many others, the Puerto Ricans, the blacks, so similarly they are accepting us.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Rāmeśvara: This city, the people of this city.

Prabhupāda: America.

Rāmeśvara: New York.

Prabhupāda: New York.

Rāmeśvara: In other places they consider us to be very foreign, alien. But here there are so many foreigners, so it fits right in.

Prabhupāda: This is the Tenth Street? No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Amsterdam Avenue.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Radio Interview -- July 27, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means one who is serious to understand this science-he's member of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. There's no question of he belongs to some group, anyone, student. Just like in a college, students can be admitted. He may be a Christian, he may be a Hindu, he may be Muhammadan, it doesn't matter. It is a science to understand.

Mike Robinson: And what difference would it make to him, being taught what the Hare Kṛṣṇa people...

Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of education, that you are a spirit soul. Because you are spirit soul you are changing bodies. This is the understanding, beginning A-B-C-D. So when the body is finished, annihilated, you are not finished—you get another body. Just like you have got this coat and shirt. If you change tomorrow, you come to me in another shirt or another coat, that means you are not finished. This science has to be understood. Then one can make progress about the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Jyotirmāyī: Then they can take responsibility themselves.

Prabhupāda: In this way. Elderly student... That is the way of Indian teaching, that there is one teacher, and how he's managing hundreds? That means there are groups. One who is elderly student, he's taking some beginners: "Write a or A like this." That he can teach. What he has learned, he can teach. Similarly, next group, next group. So in this way, one teacher can manage hundreds of students of different categories. This is organization. Not that everything I have to do. I cannot teach anybody to do it. That is not intelligence. Intelligence is that employ others to help you. That is intelligence. Not that "Oh, I was busy, I could not do it." Why? What about your assistant? Train assistant so that in your absence things can be done. So the elderly students, they could be... Just Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do that. When He was sixteen years old he could argue with Keśava Kāśmīrī, because He was practiced. In this way, stage after stage, everyone should be expert. Everyone should be teacher and student.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Yogeśvara: ...some group doctors? Some portion of the devotees medical knowledge?

Prabhupāda: There is no harm, but when medical men are available by paying something, why should you waste your time? There are so many things we purchase, you pay for them. Not that we have to learn everything. So many things we have to do. Does it mean that you have to learn everything?

Hari-śauri: There's lots of doctors, but there's no brāhmaṇas, devotees.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the principle is, don't waste time. If one has already learned medical science, all right, bring him to some service. But not that our men have to go to the medical college to learn medical science. That is not the point.

Room Conversation -- August 3, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Seems they're always carrying little snippets of information about what we're doing. Before there was a report about the restaurants, and here there's two reports about..., one about the Jagannātha festival in New York and one about the proposed Vedic university in Kurukṣetra. These were on consecutive days. The one about New York, it says, "Washington, July the 19th." That's where it's reported from. It says, "New York saw on Sunday an unusual spectacle of three brightly colored chariots being pulled along the city's prestigious Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, a distance of about five kilometers, by members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa group. The rathas, built in Orissan style with giant wooden wheels, attracted large crowds of spectators all along the route. It was a novel experience for the New Yorkers. Many resident Indians who are not members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement enthusiastically gave a hand in the pulling. The Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees were celebrating the feast of Jagannātha in the traditional Indian way. The police and the city administration readily cooperated. In a city that is coming to be known for its tolerance of diverse cultures, chariot processions promise to be an annual event. While a few citizens booed and some altercations were reported, the spectacle was well received by the New Yorkers. 'I think it is great,' the New York Times quoted a man as saying. The person, who identified himself as a visitor to New York and was not a Hare Kṛṣṇa fan, referring to the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, added, 'They are all happy and dancing, and that's what life's all about.' Later a vegetarian feast was served to the admirers."

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Room Conversation -- August 3, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: This man has come means after appreciating. Everything surrendered-money, family, everything.

Bhagavān: Of all the different groups in this country, we have the best reputation. They hardly ever write any bad thing about us.

Prabhupāda: French people are, I think, cultured than other states.

Bhagavān: They like to read. When they distribute the hard-cover books door to door, many people always look at the binding, how the book is made, and they like the pictures.

Prabhupāda: We have got our own mung dāl?

Bhagavān: Mung dāl. This is the first year we're growing. We have a large patch.

Prabhupāda: Not yet harvested.

Bhagavān: Not yet harvested. But the plants are all very healthy, strong.

Prabhupāda: So in the morning you can give. We have got other mung dāl? Soak it, soak it, and raw mung dāl also. Ginger and this cucumber.

Room Conversation -- August 3, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Bhagavān: Several months ago we had a parents' meeting. Because on account of this man Moon, there was much agitation about groups taking young children away. So we had a very nice meeting with prasādam and slides, and one of the parents was saying that "We want to be angry at you, but the problem is that you are all so nice that we cannot be angry."

Prabhupāda: One gentleman has joined, he has paid five thousand dollars. His whole family has joined.

Harikeśa: Just now? That's nice.

Bhagavān: His wife's the same too.

Harikeśa: Oh? (break)

Bhagavān: I wanted to get Kṛṣṇa book published while you are here. So I really pushed our printer to work very hard. I told him, "But the thing is, I have no money to pay you right now," because we had just printed Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. He said, "You try to give me five percent down and I'll give you eight months' credit."

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (laughs)

Bhagavān: So I didn't have the money because we were fixing up. So one girl joined, and she gave eight thousand dollars.

Prabhupāda: And what is the whole bill?

Bhagavān: That was..., the whole bill was about forty-five thousand dollars. So that was sufficient for the downpayment.

Prabhupāda: It is about more than ten percent. He wants five percent.

Bhagavān: But I gave him. (end)

Room Conversation with Professor Francois Chenique -- August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Yogeśvara: Professor's upstairs putting on a dhotī. He brought his daughter. Professor Chenique teaches a course in Bhagavad-gītā at the University, and he is also doing translations of Śaṅkarācārya and teaches for the Federation of Yoga. He considers himself a Christian Advaitist. (break) ...some questions regarding the publications in French. For example, on the front of Back to Godhead magazine, in the English edition and other language editions, they have kept the phrase "Godhead is light, darkness is nescience. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." Now in French it is difficult to translate that. There is no word Godhead. And if you say "God is light," in French it sounds very impersonalist. In French, Dieux est lumiere, "God is light." Many groups say like that. We use the word Godhead, and that distinguishes us from the other groups. Now is the phrase very important, and do you want us to keep it on the front of the magazine? It should be there.

Prabhupāda: There is a little difference between God and Godhead.

Yogeśvara: So when we will have to try to find...

Prabhupāda: Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ. Īśvara, more or less everyone, but īśvaraḥ paramaḥ, that is Godhead. The Māyāvādīs, they do not distinguish between one īśvara to another īśvara. That may be on the ordinary level, but there is parama īśvara.

Evening Conversation -- August 8, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: So this life should be utilized for purifying ourself from this designation. If you keep the designation then there is no possibility of purification. You'll get another designation. Now we are Indian or Iranian, next a sparrow or a crow or a tree or a demigod. Another designation. Just like the same, the child, a baby, on the lap of the mother, a baby, and another designation, boy, another designation young man, another designation, old man. But the spirit soul is the same. He's simply changing designations. So freedom means freedom from all these designations. I am spirit, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. I am spirit soul, my business is spiritual activity. So long we want to keep designation, you'll have to accept material body and suffer. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to educate people how to become free from designations. Therefore we accept from any group. If I think that he is under designation... But our business is to make him free from the designation. We therefore welcome anyone. He may come with designation, but if he lives with us, he follows our rules and regulations, he becomes free from designation. And this so-called designated religious system will not help us. If we keep ourself on the designated platform—I am American, I am Indian, I am Iranian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian, I am Buddhist—then we have to continue in that designation. There is no question of freedom. That requires tapasya.

Evening Darsan -- August 10, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: THat is misfortune. Ignorance means misfortune. The unfortunate persons are those who are ignorant, uneducated. Therefore you have to take education to become fortunate. And that education is being imparted by Kṛṣṇa, but you don't take it. That is misfortune. If you take education from Kṛṣṇa, you become fortunate. So why don't you take it? Kṛṣṇa has said this very thing.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

These are the classes. One who does not take the advantage of Kṛṣṇa's instruction, he's immediately grouped in these category: duṣkṛtinaḥ, mūḍhāḥ, narādhamaḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā, āsuraṁ bhāvam. Kṛṣṇa says personally. One who does not take to Kṛṣṇa's instruction, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66), then how he's grouped? He's grouped:

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

Room Conversation -- August 10, 1976, Tehran:

He is grouped. Duṣkṛtinaḥ means he has got intelligence, kṛti. Kṛti means one who has got intelligence, merit. But his merit is being utilized for sinful activities, duṣkṛtinaḥ. If merit is used for good work, that is called sukṛtina. And if the merit is used for manufacturing something harmful to the human society, then it is duṣkṛtina. Merit is there. A thief, rascal and cheater, he has got good merit, but he's using it for bad purpose. They are duṣkṛtina.

Prabhupāda: Devotees are devotees. If you want to preach to the public, what impression they'll have? Some of our documentary film, just like we are feeding the poor, or we are working, making such things, that may be favorable. Say we're doing something in America, the Indians may appreciate, or we are doing something in India. That's all right. There is little effect of course, but not very much.

Jñānagamya: But if we make a film to go in the movie houses all over the world, the big movie houses, not just for little schools or little groups, not just for the temple.

Prabhupāda: What kind of film?

Jñānagamya: A film that would show activities of devotees. And have some story...

Prabhupāda: But you said they do not like it.

Jñānagamya: No, I never said they do not like it.

Prabhupāda: You said that sense gratification. How they'll appreciate?

Jñānagamya: They will appreciate, it is something new, it is very different, it is very beautiful and attractive.

Prabhupāda: Of course, I cannot understand. What is the favorable condition of film?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jñānagamya prabhu is interested in making a very big film.

Room Conversation -- August 10, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: What you are doing practically? You are fighting only. Every ten years after you are fighting. What you have done?

Dayānanda: The fighting they say comes because humanity is divided into sectarian groups.

Prabhupāda: You have done it, you are also one of the members of the... How you can check it? It is your fault.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They want brotherhood amongst men. There is no way...

Prabhupāda: But without father. Brotherhood without father.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right, impractical.

Prabhupāda: How it is possible? You don't accept father, where is the question of brotherhood? If there is father and we are sons, we are brothers. If there is no father, then where is the question of brotherhood?

Hari-śauri: Even the Communists are fighting amongst themselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes, unless you accept the father, where is the question of brother? Artificial brotherhood.

Room Conversation -- August 10, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that good quality is God consciousness. So unless humanity comes to the position of God consciousness, unless he thinks that everything belongs to God, there is no question of humanity. That is "dognity," doggish mentality. Humanity means that he understands that everything belongs to God, I am servant of God. That is humanity. Otherwise, there is no question of humanity. If you think like dog, where is humanity?

Dayānanda: They think that everything belongs to humanity as a group.

Prabhupāda: But that is not practical. Everything belongs to the humanity, then why you are making divisions of nations?

Dayānanda: That's what they say, that that is the problem.

Prabhupāda: And the problem will continue because you are taking account a section of living entity. You, because you have no idea of dog and other animals, what they are, they are also sons of God. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ. Unless you come to this understanding, there is no question of humanity. This is the humanity understanding. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ.

Room Conversation About Mayapura Construction -- August 19, 1976, Hyderabad:

Gargamuni: Now on the weekend we have tours of the building. Many groups of people come. Fifty in a group sometimes come and visit.

Prabhupāda: Tourists.

Gargamuni: Yes, tourists, and we take then on tour of the building. That's Subhaga. He takes them on tour and he gives some preaching. So many people are coming.

Prabhupāda: Subhaga is in charge of that?

Gargamuni: Yes, he does.

Jayapatākā: Others are there also. One new boy is very good.

Gargamuni: Kiśora.

Jayapatākā: Kiśora dāsa. He's also translating. He's a little more strong than Subhaga, although new. Very good boy, very humble. He's from a good family also.

Prabhupāda: What is the flood situation?

Gargamuni: Very mild monsoon this year. Almost drought. Almost. Very mild. Very little rain.

Prabhupāda: Rain is not very strong.

Room Conversation About Mayapura Construction -- August 19, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: That is their business, especially Mādhava Mahārāja.

Jayapatākā: It not materially by poison, then spiritually by ear. One way or other, they have to give poison. So I didn't even want to go. I didn't go, either.

Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara Mahārāja is also within the group?

Jayapatākā: Of course, all those details we don't know. By the way, Tīrtha Mahārāja very sick.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gargamuni: Oxygen.

Jayapatākā: He can't breath. He is on a bed with oxygen. Life and death any moment. Injection, oxygen, barely staying alive. One day better, one day worse. Now they say better; then again they say worse. (Break) That is what we simply need, are people... I saw the program so nicely if people would simply come and work sincerely, they'll make spiritual advancement. They'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very quickly they'll become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So now we're seeing that... We're demanding that sincere people come.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it may not be the association of lazy people. Free hotel. No.

Room Conversation -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Uganda. They got English citizenship. Now they cannot refuse them legally.

Maṇihāra: There's one group, the National Front group, they are trying to stop the citizenship. Because the government they are saying, "Yes, we will make you citizens if you come here, get business." And they are fighting against this.

Prabhupāda: They are refusing citizenship to the children. Children born of Indians in England, naturally they should be citizens. But now they're refused.

Hari-śauri: They're making all of them get six-month visas. That's partly the reason why India is now thinking to impose visa regulations on the British, on British people who come here.

Prabhupāda: Why they are doing that? Why not make world citizen? So much space. Let anyone go anywhere and live as he likes.

Room Conversation with Endowments Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Commissioner: Yes. That is also part of the, that is the other part of it. We are having dhana-prasthānam,(?) bhajana group, hari-kathā group...

Prabhupāda: But kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. The Vedas are meant for the brāhmaṇas. So there is no brāhmaṇa practically. Neither there is training of brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa means he must speak truth. Satyā śama dama titik—and if you ask nowadays anybody that "You don't speak lie, you speak truth," he will laugh, that "What a rascal this is. By speaking truth one can live nowadays?" he will say. The first business is satyam. And if you ask him, "You speak truth," he will laugh. So where is brāhmaṇa? A brāhmaṇa is so simple that if you ask him about his secrecy, he'll tell you, "Yes, this is..." Satyam. Just like Jābāli? Upaniṣad, he was asked, he went to Gautama Muni. Satyaka, yes, for initiation. Gautama Muni asked him, "Who is your father?" He said, "I do not know." "Go to your mother." He went to the mother. Mother said, "Oh, my dear son, I do not know." He was a prostitute's son. So he came to Gautama Muni and said, "Sir, my mother does not know, I do not know." So he said, "You are a brāhmaṇa. Because you don't keep any secrecy you are brāhmaṇa. I'll initiate." So it is not the birth, but the quality-truthful. But these qualities will come when you make him a devotee. So this process should be taken, how to make him a devotee. And the easiest process of making devotee is let them come to the temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasāda. Then gradually they'll become... I began this movement on this. Very simple.

Meeting with Endowments Commissioner -- August 24, 1976, Hyderabad:

doing so many things. That is also mentioned by Kṛṣṇa.

Harikeśa: Iti te jñānam...

Prabhupāda: No. That one verse is that one does not... Kṛṣṇa's mission is that "Surrender unto Me." Now who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa? That is stated by Kṛṣṇa.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

Evening Darsana -- September 1, 1976, Delhi:

Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped either duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam. We do that. Anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he must be grouped among them. And for them, what is their... Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram. Find out this verse, tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān... If anyone is envious of Kṛṣṇa, then what is his punishment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. (Hindi) What is the purport?

Pradyumna: "The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna-yogis, and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord are called bhakti-yogis. Now here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa personally says bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). (Hindi) If you like to tolerate adi-kleśa, that is your choice. Otherwise, Bhagavān, sac-cid-ānanda...

śrī vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-

śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau

yuktasya bhaktāṁś ca niyuñjato 'pi

vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **

(Hindi) You can accept any way. That is your choice.

Garden Conversation -- September 7, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes. B.N. Sarkar, he was going on cycle in London, busy street and his eyes bound up. Everyone has seen it. He was going on cycle in busy... Ordinary street he was going, and his eyes were bound up. Everyone has seen.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The Vice Chancellor of Bangalore University along with some other professors, they decided to do research into all these so-called gods like Sai Baba. There's another six year old "god" called Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa. So they sent Sai Baba a questionnaire. He did not reply. Then this Vice Chancellor with a group of professors, they went to this six year old Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He was producing ash with some magic.

Prabhupāda: Ash?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ash. So all the local, a big crowd would come to see him. So they went and they sat right next to the child. So that day the ash was not produced. So later on the whole thing got exploded and the child's parents admitted it was bogus. Now that "god" is finished. Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He was six year old Śrī Kṛṣṇa. So this Sai Baba refused to answer the questionnaire. He said, "Why should I respond to these people?"

Indian man: He's angry from that.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This group of professors, they're exposing all these bogus gurus who are saying they are God.

Prabhupāda: Have you got it?

Pradyumna: Yes.

Press Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh:

Interviewer: Are you getting any opposition from the church?

Prabhupāda: No. That is very favorable. No. Otherwise, it was impossible. At least in America they have never prevented me. But in Europe especially in England and Germany, they, the Christian group, they are little angry with me. But so far America, they are very liberal. They never put any impediments in my movement. Rather, government appreciates. The appreciated one point, that the American younger generation, they have become addicted to this LSD, intoxication, and they have spent millions of dollars to stop this, but they could not. But they are surprised that as soon as this LSD man becomes my disciple, he gives up immediately.

Prabhupāda: Just like there are so many men now, they are against this Sai Baba.

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Sai Baba is actually doing that brainwash. But they don't think of... (break)

Haṁsadūta: Yes, because people cannot discriminate. They have no power to discriminate. They group us with all these other bogus people.

Prabhupāda: But that happened when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was being praised by the Nawab. They were asking about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "What is the position of this man that so many people are following him?" So, Sanātana Goswami, who was very bright, took it as a warning and asked Caitanya Mahāprabhu that you leave this place as soon as possible.

Haṁsadūta: Hm.

Prabhupāda: So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was not afraid, but He, as usual, He left that place. But Sanātana Goswami, at that time minister...

Haṁsadūta: He could understand.

Prabhupāda: He took advice, the Nawab was so serious about Him. A Mohammedan may do something. So he said, "It is not good to stay here. You should go away." They decided that we shall go now with Him but in the meantime let Him go. Because there were parts of India, Mohammedan influence, especially Bengal was Mohammedan kingdom. So this was warning. Then he told the Nawab that, "He is a beggar. Why do you think of him as serious man? He is beggar. Some people follow him, not many." So he said. "Don't try to mislead me. I know. He's not beggar, He's God. Otherwise how so many people are following Him?" The Nawab he said that.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) (break) "What is this pressure?" "Sir is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (laughter) And very bad." Some day somebody says, "No it is good." (laughter) But Kṛṣṇa pressure.

Haṁsadūta: That pressure is being felt.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Otherwise who cares for whom? There are so many things. Here also, they are feeling the pressure, the so-called swamis, yogis, Gosvāmīs, religious groups, Māyāvādīs...

Hari-śauri: Communists.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hari-śauri: Communists, too.

Prabhupāda: Communists. That is our success. Everyone is now feeling the pressure. (Bengali) and they are talking (Bengali). In such a short time, so much money, so much expansion, so many devotees, what is this? That is Kṛṣṇa.

Haṁsadūta: Like Vāmanadeva expanded His foot and He covered the...

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.

Prabhupāda: These are charges? (laughter) I'm controlling your mind charges. No you are controlling mine. These are the charges. (chuckles) He's controlling his mind. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "The fault of this religion differs from our western thought. Throughout history the group tried to find God through beliefs other than those which were held by the majority, and if those beliefs were very different from the majority's, such beliefs were almost always..."

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)...their arguments so strong.

Devotee: (indistinct) ...debaters.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, and their theories were that because... Because they are, they have accepted your Divine Grace as the absolute authority, that they will do anything that you say and therefore these people are very dangerous. They don't care for anything. They're not interested in the normal standards and goals...

Prabhupāda: Charmistic, charmistic, what is that?

Haṁsadūta: Charismatic.

Hari-śauri: Charismatic.

Haṁsadūta: Charismatic. There is, they usually use this word to describe a person who attracts people, but no one can understand why.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they cannot explain, brainwash, mind control, charismatic, like that they use.