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Gandhi (Conversations 1977)

Expressions researched:
"Gandhi" |"Gandhi's" |"Gandhiji" |"Gandhiji's" |"Gandhis"

Conversations and Morning Walks

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- January 2, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: One who has little mercy of God upon him, he can understand, but others, they can speculate for many, many births; still, they'll never be able. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvayaṁ leśānugṛhīta jānāti tattvam. Leśānugṛhīta eva hi. Leśa. One cannot know God full. That is not possible because you are limited; He is unlimited. Still, if one has learned, at least if one has accepted, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. Bas," his knowledge is perfect. If he simply believes only that "Here is God," he can understand. They don't believe that Kṛṣṇa is God. "Eh... He may be very powerful...," so on. Kṛṣṇa says aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). These rascals will not believe. "So what is there for me?" Mūḍho nābhijānāti. If they remain persistently mūḍhas, who can make them understand? Very difficult. (Hindi) Gandhi did not believe in Kṛṣṇa. Huh?

Dr. Patel: I don't know that. I think he...

Prabhupāda: You should know. You have read Gandhi's book.

Dr. Patel: He practiced Vaiṣṇavism. That is what my wife said. Always, daily, to worship.

Prabhupāda: This is not... I do not know what is Gandhi's book, his Gītā lecture. Why don't you purchase them? Explain.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'll get you some.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He mentioned that, that "My Kṛṣṇa is different imagination. My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." That is his position. He imagines. He has... (Hindi) "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa..." This is... How he can believe Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is preaching violence, and he's trying to draw nonviolence. The people will challenge, but he makes his own commentation, his own imagination. He said, "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." This is his word. And actually... He is the student of Bhagavad-gītā and in his āśrama there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. He does not believe in Kṛṣṇa. But believe or not believe, he was reading Bhagavad-gītā, had respect. That will give him some profit, there is no doubt.

Room Conversation -- January 2, 1977, Bombay:
Prabhupāda: Everything is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā. I speak, therefore, to my disciples that "You simply repeat like parrot Bhagavad-gītā and follow by your life. Don't try to become very big scholar, do interpretation. Remain foolish and believe in Kṛṣṇa. Then life is perfect." And actually that is happening. They never tried to eschew and... What is called, the English word? Draw out some meaning. Eschew or something?

Jagadīśa: Eschew is the right word. Prabhupāda: They do, everyone. The Tilak has done like that, Gandhi has done like that, Vinod Bhave is doing that. Dr. Radhakrishna has done like that, Vivekananda has done, Aurobindo has done—everyone. Nobody would take directly, that "Here is God." What do you think? They have taken directly? Do they believe? Dr. Patel: They believe in God.

Room Conversation -- January 3, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: I had such experience. I had some experience in my childhood in 1911. I was thirteen years old. There was a riot. So our house was there in Mahātmā Gandhi Road, and all sides Muhammadans. We are simply... The Mulliks and our house are simply some respectable men. Otherwise it was surrounded (surrendered?) by... That is called Kwalabala and Bastik, all Muhammadans, backside fully Muhammadans. So the riot was there, and I went to play. There is a square, Marker(?) Square. So I did not know the riot has taken place. I was coming home. So one of my class friends said that "You do not go to your house. That side is rioting now." So because we are in the Muhammadan quarter, this fighting between two parties, that was going on. It is usual. So I thought it may be like that, that two guṇḍās are fighting. I have seen. One guṇḍā is stabbing the other guṇḍā. I have seen. And they are pickpockets. When you are passing they would... I have seen, he is pickpocketing. (laughter) And they were our neighbor men. So I thought "It must be like that. This is going on." But when I came the crossing of Mahatma Gandhi... At that time Harrison Road it was. Harrison Road and Holi..., Holiday, Halliday Street, yes. So one shop was being plundered. Putamat putamat putamat..." So I was child, a boy. I became... "What is this happening?" In the meantime all, my father, mother, members: "Oh, the child has not come." They became so mad, they came out of home expecting, "Wherefrom the child will come?" So what could I do? When I saw, then I began to run towards our house, and one Muhammadan, he wanted to kill me. He took his lāṭhi and actually... But I passed through some way or other. I was saved.

Morning Walk -- January 4, 1977, Bombay:
Prabhupāda: Actually all the so-called leaders and scholars, they are blind themselves and they have become big, big leader. That is the misfortune of the present life. And, therefore, our proposition is you take direction from Kṛṣṇa and His representative. That's all. That will help you. Try to understand this point. Our system, paramparā system, is that I am just like disciple of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. I don't say that I am liberated. I am conditioned. But because I am following the instruction of Bhaktisiddhānta, I'm liberated. This is the distinction between conditioned and liberated. When one is under the direction of a liberated person... The same thing: Electricity. The copper is not electricity, but when it is charged with electricity, if it is touched, that is electricity. And, similarly, this paramparā system, the electricity is going. If you cut the paramparā system, then there is no electricity. Therefore it is stressed so much. Sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. The electricity is lost. These people, they do not know. Now at the fag end of life, they are thinking, if intelligent person, that "What I have done actually?" If one has sense, he should come to this understanding. By cutting some, what is that? Dead trees? The civil disobedience began by cutting dead trees. Is it not? Vinoda Bhave, he began his leadership forty years ago by cutting... Gandhi also, civil disobedience. So this kind of leadership might have been little enthusiasm for the time being, but actually what people gain by that, such leadership?
Morning Walk -- January 6, 1976, Bombay:

Mahāṁsa: Now we are in the process of making a brochure so that we can present to trusts and foundations for bigger donations for the farm project.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. They have amassed money. Let them spend for this village organization. This is real Gandhi's program. He wanted this village organization. But because they manufactured their own way, it was not successful. But if we follow this principle, it will be successful, without any doubt. These big, big āśrama... Gandhi's āśrama is vacant. No. They are getting money, but they have no such program.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: It must be, because there is no solid program. There is no solid program, simply imagination.

Evening Darsana -- January 7, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So if you think that Mrs. Gandhi is religious and is for Indian culture, why not ask her to take the guidance of Kṛṣṇa? Who can give better guidance than Kṛṣṇa?

Indian lady (2): Mahatma Gandhi took guidance... Of course, he also made lots of mistakes, but he did take guidance...

Prabhupāda: Everyone must make mistake because a conditioned soul are liable to four defects. One of them is to commit mistake. One of them is to become illusioned. One of them, he is a cheater. And one of them, his senses are imperfect. So every conditioned soul who has got this material body, he is defective in these four things. Therefore he has to take knowledge from a person who has no defects. Then his knowledge will be perfect. Just like a small child, he is defective, but he receives the knowledge from the father: "This is called pencil." A child does not know what it is, but the father says, "My dear child, it is pencil." And if he says, "It is pencil," then it is correct, although he's a child, because he has received the knowledge from the person who knows it. Similarly, our principle is—that is Vedic principle-evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). The knowledge has to be taken from the superior, liberated person.

Evening Darsana -- January 7, 1977, Bombay:
Prabhupāda: Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam: (BG 4.2) "First of all I said to Vivasvān." The predominating deity in the sun planet is called Vivasvān. His name is Vivasvān. So he spoke to his son Manu. Manu spoke to his son Ikṣvāku. In this way He describes, sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa: "That paramparā system is now lost. Therefore I am speaking you the old truth." Yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. That is nothing new; the same thing. And if we give up this paramparā system, then yogo naṣṭaḥ. So nobody is taking this Bhagavad-gītā in the paramparā system. He is interpreting in his own way. Therefore it is already naṣṭaḥ; it has no value. So this is going on. Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. So because... Why we have to take from the authority? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Because guru means he presents the truth as it is. And as soon as you interpret, it is naṣṭaḥ; it is spoiled. They are reading Bhagavad-gītā, but they do not take this instruction, that "I am presenting Bhagavad-gītā in a way which is spoiled." And they're insisting. So if you think that Indira Gandhi... I think so also because I have heard so many times. Why not...? His (Her) position is very nice. If he (she) actually follows the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, his (her) position will be more secure. That is sure. Let her take this. She...

Guest (1): But who will advise her, sir? Prabhupāda: I will advise!

Evening Darsana -- January 7, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: You arrange, I will advise her. I am not proud, but I am the authority at the present moment. It is not pride. It is the fact! So let her take! Let her understand. The authority is there. And what is understanding? It is simple truth. Everyone can understand. Any child can understand. There is no difficulty. We make it difficult by our rascal interpretation. And that is very simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). So there must be somebody, original person. You are existing, you are coming from your father. Your father coming from his father, his father, his father... Now, who is the original father? There must be somebody. You may or may not know. So here is the answer: aham ādir hi devānām. So why don't you take? Where is the difficulty? If you are finding out who is the original person and the original person is presenting Himself and He is being accepted by great authorities—formerly Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Asita, Devala, and later on Rāmānujācārya Madhvācārya, and all big, big stalwart ācāryas, Caitanya Mahāprabhu—so why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa the supreme original authority? What is the difficulty? The fact is very plain, but I'll not take it. If I misguide myself, then who will guide me? If I sleep while I am not sleeping, then who will help me? Take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. If Indira Gandhi... I know she is intelligent, she is religious. Let her follow strictly the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Just his, all her ambition, all her programs, will be successful—if he's (she's) serious.

D. D. Desai: Now, since you have shown the repeated willingness to talk to her directly, so I'll...

Prabhupāda: It is science. There is no difficulty to understand

Evening Darsana -- January 7, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Everyone is very worried. That is described by Prahlāda Mahārāja. When Hiraṇyakaśipu... After all, they are father and son. He inquired from the son, "My dear son, what best thing you have learned?"S So he said, "My dear..." He did not say "My dear father." He said "The best of the asuras." He addressed his father, "The best of the asuras." Tat sādhu manye asura varya dehinam. "My dear the best of the asuras..." He was the best of the asuras. "So I think that is best education..." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām. Dehināṁ sadā samudvignam asad-grahāt. (break) We have got good rooms like this, not that one has to go to the forest. Even in the Vṛndāvana we have got very good room, but nobody's coming. This is the position. After fiftieth year, voluntarily one must commit civil suicide—no family. And that is Vedic. But he will think of family up to the point of being killed by this revolver. This is going on. Even Gandhi, what to speak of others. He presented himself as very tyāgī, but unless he was killed, he did not give up his ambition. "How my sons, how my countrymen will be happy?" And what happiness you can give? You are not God. Who is taking care of them? But this is māyā. He was thinking, "If I am not there, then whatever I have got, it will be finished."

Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Here also, all these politicians, they are after woman, meat and money. That's all.

Trivikrama: Intoxication.

Prabhupāda: Yes. One... Who was speaking, that in...? Some gentleman, he was Feroz(?) Gandhi's friend. He went to America, and he was eating beef like anything.

Dr. Patel: Feroz? He was, Gandhi?

Prabhupāda: Not... No, another Indian leader. He's a Marwari brāhmaṇa.

Dr. Patel: Parsee would never eat beef, sir, huh? I heard they are...

Prabhupāda: No, no. They are eating everything.

Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Marriages are brought in famine (?) and they are never broken down again.

Prabhupāda: No, in big, big cities there is a marriage magistrate. You go... The boys and girls go and register there...

Dr. Patel: Yes, but here...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Marriage is, therefore, what is called primitive. Primitive. Modern marriage is primitive.

Dr. Patel: I think also that is correct. In your time, sir, you never used to see the girl from the year before the marriage. In our times, we never used to see the girl before the marriage. I never saw my wife. She was in Mahatma Gandhi's āśrama, and I was on this side. I never saw. And we lived very happily.

Prabhupāda: No, in my marriage, it was already settled. So one day I was going in cycle. So my father-in-law forcibly took me. (chuckles)

Dr. Patel: So those marriage, sir, sometimes they never forget.(?)

Prabhupāda: No. My wife was eleven years old.

Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And the marriage party was waiting, and he was sleeping, and when the opportune moment came, "Get up! Get up! Now you have to sit down in the..."

Dr. Patel: I think Nehru married at the age of eighteen years.

Prabhupāda: He was up-to-date, English-returned. He was Gandhi's student.

Dr. Patel: These boys make love and marry. And we marry and make love. (laughs) This is the background of Indian womanhood, this religion. That keeps up the sacredness of the Hindu marriage.

Prabhupāda: No, everywhere there is religion, in Europe, America. Church. Church. Marriage was taken in church.

Morning Walk -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham (SB 7.9.45). No, maithuna, but maithuna products. You are attached to your sons and daughters. That is maithuna product.

Dr. Patel: That way we are attached to our bodies.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Either maithuna... Just like Gandhi. The same thing, a bigger scale. Bigger scale. Maithuna product.

Dr. Patel: Our body is also maithuna product.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but that is the first instruction: "Don't be attached to this body." So if we remain attached up to the point of death to the maithuna or maithuna product, then the same illusion. That is said.

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: This is the test. Guru... The supreme guru is Kṛṣṇa, and anyone canvasses for Kṛṣṇa, he is guru, guru's represent... Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya. That guru will never say that "Kṛṣṇa is dead and gone. I am now guru. I am Kṛṣṇa. I am avatāra." That is rascaldom. So if you want such rascal, then you'll be cheated. (aside:) Who is bringing prasāda? Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Everything is there. Read Bhagavad-gītā very carefully. Don't misinterpret. That has killed our culture. They do not know what is Bhagavad-gītā, and they stand: "I am a student of Bhagavad-gītā." This is going on. Even recently I had been in Gandhi's aśrama. It is a desert. He was student of Bhagavad-gītā. Yes. Vinobhaji also never teaches Kṛṣṇa, but he's a Gītā-pravacana. What Gītā-pravacana without Kṛṣṇa? Everyone is doing that, Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. What is that Bhagavad-gītā?

Guest (2): A glass without water.

Prabhupāda: If big, big men do like that, then what the followers will do? Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). This is the position of our country, that everyone has misguided in the name of leadership, and people are in bewilderment—"What to do?"

Guest (2): But different... I mean... It was predicted that this may happen.

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ... (BG 9.12).

Hari-śauri: Baffled hope.

Prabhupāda: It will never be fulfilled, but still, they will make plan. The Napoleon made a plan. Hitler made a plan. Churchill made a plan. Gandhi made a plan. Mussolini made a plan. But the plan and planmaker—all washed away. Things are going on as it is. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: (BG 18.66) "Don't make plan. Take to My plan. You'll be happy. I'll give you." This planmaking... Our government has got planning commission. The planning commission has brought people in such a condition that they are dying of starvation. And they are taking salary, big, big, fat salary. This is going on.

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: When you have come?

Bhavabhūtī: Just today, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Just today from Madras. I closed the bank account there. Also I was in Madras, there's one movie playing there by the government. The name of the movie is called, "From the Indus Valley to Indira Gandhi." It's a government movie put out, and in the movie there's a picture of the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees chanting and also a display of your books.

Prabhupāda: Acchā?

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:
Prabhupāda: And that is also different standard. People are not satisfied with simple living.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So they want... Prabhupāda: Therefore there is certain age, that "At this age no more such ambition, material. Lead simple life and advance." That is after fiftieth year. This is our Vedic system. In the beginning it is not possible, but by practicing... So if one lives for hundred years, fifty years' extravagancy, "Now stop. Now be regulated and try to be mukta." This is the system. But they don't want even up to the point of death, even men like Gandhi and others. They do not want. This morning Indira Gandhi said that "I am for the mass of people." And Vivekananda, "My country." The same feeling as a person, individual person thinking of his family, these people are thinking of his country, a big family, not for the whole living entities, jīva. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Nobody is interested in the śāstric injunction. They've lost them all... Temporary... This is an institution to elevate people gradually.

Morning Discussion about Kumbhamela -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Gurudāsa: From our camp. And one and a half hours back. They kept on saying, "Sida, sida! Agi, agi!" And finally I got there. And their camp is not nicer than ours. It would mean a saving of approximately...

Prabhupāda: At the cost of inconvenience.

Gurudāsa: But it wouldn't even save that much money, because our tents... When I got there, the one thing that was up, were our tents.

Prabhupāda: Where is the Mamford(?) Gandhi? Do you know?

Gurudāsa: No. At Kapoor's house. I will go and see. Also Gopāla Kṛṣṇa mentioned a Ghosh. I'm going to get all the addresses from Jagadīśa prabhu and look into it.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Dr. Ghosh.

Gurudāsa: Dr. Ghosh.

Prabhupāda: Dr. Ghosh is a little off.

Morning Walk -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, we have got our own fight. The thought-checking. "I am thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Why you are checking me?" This will be our defense. Do you think Kṛṣṇa-thinking is illegal and madness? Then you have to condemn the whole Hindu religion.

Trivikrama: Every religion.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is taken as Hindu God. So I'm thinking of Hindu God. Why you are checking? (break) We are reading Bhagavad-gītā and killing Kṛṣṇa. This... Our national father is supposed to be a great devotee of Bhagavad-gītā, but Kṛṣṇa is killed. Why the government does not take it seriously? Gandhi wanted Bhagavad-gita as guide. Why they are not taking?

Dr. Patel: That is the Vaiṣṇava (Hindi).

Prabhupāda: That is all bogus. Bogus. Simply bogus. Politics. In Gandhi's āśrama I saw not a single Vaiṣṇava or Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Photographs, you mean to say.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "He's Vaiṣṇava." Bogus.

Morning Walk -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: The people approached him that "Mahatmaji, you have got influence over the Muslims, why not stop cow-killing?" "I cannot touch on their religious principles." Just see. Cow-killing is religious? Their religious principle. If I say my father-killing, mother-killing is my religion, so Gandhi will say, "Yes, you can do that. Nonviolent." Kill nonviolent. This nonsense contradiction can be tolerated by the fools and rascals. That's all. That is... Nonviolence, at the same time cow-killing. This rascal, another rascal... You are observing Buddha-jayantī and daily cow-killing. As if Buddha, Lord Buddha, recommended cow-killing.

Dr. Patel: Buddhists all eat, are meat-eaters the world over.

Morning Darsana and Room Conversation Ramkrishna Bajaj and friends -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Ah! Tamasa... "Don't remain in the darkness; come to the light." So this is the Vedic injunction. But we don't take advantage of the instruction. We think that "If I can make one table from a ordinary wooden plank, that is advancement." This is technology. This nice polished table is a transformation of the crude wooden plank. So if a crude wooden plank is transferred into nice table, we see: "Oh, this is advancement." What is actual benefit? I can do without this table. But we have taken: "This is advancement. Transforming the form of an element into another, that is advancement." So asate vilāsa. This is asat, this wood, either in crude form or in transferred form. So I am taking credit because a crude wood has been turned into a table. So that is my vilāsa. So sat saṅga chāḍi kāinu asate vilāsa. So I am now bound up. I can become a very nice carpenter. Does it mean that I am self-realized? If you have learned the art of turning crude wood into a table, nice table, you may get the credit of becoming a nice carpenter; that does not mean you are self-realized. They are taking credit of this turning crude wood into nice table, and they're thinking that "Our life is successful." This is going on. And the real technology, that "I am not this body; I have been put into this condition, and I am transmigrating from one body to another"—there is no such knowledge. For the temporary.... (break) ...temporary thing, flickering thing, like children. Children is very busy on the beach, making sand palaces, and he's very happy. So our position is like that. But we should be intelligent enough that "There is our real life, permanent life, not this temporary life," that "This life is temporary. There is another life." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "This śarīra is not..." Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. So many things.... The Bhagavad-gītā is full of information, but we don't take advantage. We are so unfortunate. And it is our country. This is Indian culture. We have given up this. (Hindi) Gandhiji, he was supposed to be a great student of Bhagavad-gītā. And the such a big āśrama, Sevagrama. Where is Bhagavad-gītā arcana? Boliye.

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Prabhupāda: They are endorsing. They stopped cow-killing.

Rāmeśvara: They are endorsing?

Prabhupāda: They have stopped cow-killing.

Rāmeśvara: They stopped cow-killing. Prabhupāda said that it is directly our movement...

Prabhupāda: It is not Vinobha Bhave. It is I. And they are silent. Even Gandhi did not care to stop. Now stopped.

Rāmeśvara: They have stopped it because they see we are getting so much support?

Prabhupāda: Certainly. (pause) (aside:) No, no. One skinned. (pause) So you have all answers?

Rāmeśvara: Many answers. You have all the answers.

Conversation and Instruction On New Movie -- January 13, 1977, Allahabad:

Prabhupāda: Actually India is poor. When we give food, how voraciously they eat. They cannot eat. They have no resources to eat nicely at home. That's a fact. Half-fed. At least half-fed. In the villages they are not fully fed. They have no sufficient clothing, no food, that's all. The rascal politicians, realizing heavy tax, and that is divided amongst them. It is not going to the poor. They are imitating Western way of life. They have got huge expenditure. So whatever money is coming, they are spending for their luxury, and poor men... The Gandhi's movement, boycott British goods, but they took it: "Boycott British goods and take our goods." So the consumer goods were the same. Gandhi helped to stop the British capitalist in favor of the Indian capitalist. The consumer remained in the same position, rather, worse. The foreigners, they are thinking that "These people are poor. They cannot pay more to me." And these rascals, Indian capitalists, in the name of nationalism, Birlas and others, they exploit. And they give contribution to Gandhi, Gandhi's staff, Jawaharlal Nehru's staff. And they took the opportunity that "I shall pay this rascal one lakh, and I shall utilize the ten lakhs." That's it. So the object of exploitation remained the same. Rather, by artificial inflation of money market put common men in plight, because the other day I was calculating... The things have gone high priced, thirty times, but the income has not increased thirty times. The other day I was calculating. My father's income was, utmost, three hundred rupees. So we had no scarcity. In our standard of life there was no scar... What standard of...? That standard of life is still... Now that three hundred rupees is... He calculated.

Room Conversation -- January 15, 1977, Allahabad:

Prabhupāda: In Durban. South Africa. Fighting with General Smuts to give Indians equal rights. They are very conservative. At heart they want "Indians may go away." They don't want Indians. And if they want, it is for their own benefit. The Indians have given some place to develop as marketplace, and as soon as they develop, they ask, "Go there. Leave this place. Go away, other place." This is going on. And they know very well, politicians. The Indians have been given a place where nearby there is a slaughterhouse. They know Indians are sentimental, at least for cow slaughtering. Whole night slaughtering is going on, and there are screaming of the animals. Whole night. Even those who are meat-eaters, they will be disturbed. So the purpose is that "Let them live near the slaughterhouse, so by sentiment they are disgusted, leave this country." They don't want the Asians, especially Indians, and especially due to Gandhi, because they know, due to Gandhi... At least Gandhi organized the public opinion against the Britishers by this noncooperation movement. They were not affected by the... Affected in this way, that public opinion was against them. That is also organization. Otherwise Gandhi's method was not harmful to the..., this noncooperation, nonviolent. That did not help. But he influenced the public opinion against them.

Room Conversation -- January 15, 1977, Allahabad:

Gurudāsa: Yes. India was dependent on tea and cloth from England.

Prabhupāda: But tea they also produce it.

Gurudāsa: Was it introduced by the English?

Prabhupāda: Yes. India did not know what is tea. They started the tea gardens, and they recruited labors from India. We have seen in our childhood that Mahatma Gandhi Road. When I was standing on the gate, five hundred, six hundred laborers recruited from Bihar. Bihar and Orissa, these two provinces very poor. Even all these colonies, just like Trinidad... Where is Englishmen? If the laborers and Indians were sent... Therefore we find in Mauritius, in Africa, so many Indians. Their kingdom, first of all it was conquered by Indian soldiers. Then, when it was to be organized-Indian coolies, Indian laborers, Indian guards. They have got men and money, but they expanded Empire. So I am doing the same business: American money, American... (laughs) I am also a great politician.

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: So they are servant. So every one of us is a servant. But this service has not pleased us. Therefore we are seeking other service, the service of the Supreme.

Guest (1): Sir, what is the way to serve the Supreme?

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Just like a servant, when he is not pleased, somehow or other, with the master, he seeks another service. Is it not? Similarly, the service in this material world will never please us, neither the master. Take for example Gandhi. He gave so much service to his country, to his countrymen, but what was the result? He was shot dead. So who can please more than Gandhi? So we should take lesson from this, that if you are engaged in rendering service to the material world, neither you'll be happy nor the master will be happy. It is simply waste of time.

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Hari-śauri: Only if the chanting and prasādam is there.

Prabhupāda: Prasādam, Deity worship, devotional life... Then it will be all right.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Gandhi could never implement his program.

Prabhupāda: Nobody can do. They simply... Even... What is that? Marx? He could not. There is no real attraction. Artificial, by force. Here the real attraction is Kṛṣṇa. So other thing he doesn't mind: "Let there be little inconvenience. I don't mind."

Hari-śauri: A devotee is actually getting a higher taste. He's getting some real enjoyment, so he doesn't care for the other things.

Prabhupāda: So unless there is enjoyment he cannot stick. But that enjoyment is Kṛṣṇa.

Hari-śauri: Just that chanting is enough. It's just so much nectar.

Prabhupāda: No, everything—Deity worship, chanting, kīrtana, preaching, publishing, distributing—everything.

Evening Darsana -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Guest (1): What students can do? In the topic of..., what students can do?

Prabhupāda: You read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Because Gandhi or Vinobha or Vivekananda or Aurobindo, they did not come in the paramparā system. They have made themselves important by their own ideas. That we want to check. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. You cannot make any amendment or correction in the Bhagavad-gītā. But these people, unfortunately, they take advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad-gītā and give their own comment.

Mr. Pandiya: To suit their purposes.

Prabhupāda: That's all. This is the dangerous... And they are considered as big men, and people follow, and they are misled. Otherwise, in India, so much fallen condition due to these rascal leaders. That I am speaking repeatedly, although it may be very harsh. But we have to say that. Everyone has distorted. Gandhi says Kurukṣetra, "this body." Where is the chance of talking of "this body," the Kurukṣetra? Has he not?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Where is the dictionary, "the body means Kurukṣetra, and Kurukṣetra means the body."

Evening Darsana -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: This was protested by Caitanya Mahāprabhu vigorously. Why should you interpret?

Guest (4) (Indian man): Yes. He told, the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam is the ultimate bhāṣya of prasthāna code, Vedānta-sūtra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, anything, if you can understand very clearly, where is the question of interpretation? But it has become a fashion that "If I can interpret in my own way, I become a big scholar." This is going on. If you have got your philosophy, you can speak. Everyone is free. Why you should take Bhagavad-gītā and distort it? Kṛṣṇa never meant that "In future Gandhi will come," or "Dr. Radhakrishnan will come, and he will explain My ideas." What is this nonsense? Kṛṣṇa was a foolish person that he left it for Gandhi for distortion? He could not explain Himself that Kurukṣetra means this body? Gandhi has to interpret? Do you think it is right?

Guest (5) (Indian man): Not at all.

Prabhupāda: But this is going on. What right you have got to interpret? If Kurukṣetra means body, Kṛṣṇa would have explained that. Was He not learned? He left it for Gandhi. Just see. He left it for Tilak. How harmful these interpretations are. That is going on.

Conversation During Massage -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: So you decide amongst yourselves. Majority should be taken.

Satsvarūpa: I know. We'll be doing that at Māyāpur, but we all want to follow what your direction is.

Prabhupāda: So give me detailed statement. I shall... (break) All right.

Hari-śauri: Their ideas run similar, that they wanted to... Their so-called philosophy was that all the working people should be supplied sufficient foodstuffs and there shouldn't be any capitalism and..., like this.

Prabhupāda: The Gandhi's philosophy is to wipe out the capitalist, Britishers, and his philosophy also, the same.

Satsvarūpa: But one was nonviolent.

Prabhupāda: That is only pretext.

Conversation During Massage -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: You are not killed. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Who kills and who is killed?"

Satsvarūpa: But, say for political reasons, Stalin would kill.

Prabhupāda: No, that is politics, that.

Satsvarūpa: But Gandhi would say, "No, don't kill because..."

Prabhupāda: Gandhi's a rascal. Therefore he is failure. "In politics there is no violence"—that is another rascaldom.

Rāmeśvara: How has India improved by independence? What is the improvement? They are more godless than ever.

Prabhupāda: No, he... He... When the Hindus approached him that "You have got so much influence over the Muhammadans. Stop cow-killing," he replied, "How can I stop their cow-killing? It is their religion." Just see. He accepted something as religion which is killing. He's such a rascal.

Conversation During Massage -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: And actually India was saved on account of Russia. During the Pakistan and Hindustan fight, there was ninety percent chance that America will openly take part with the Pakistan. And because the Russians were there, seen in the Indian Ocean—they have come with their warfare materials—the Americans stopped, that "It is going to be great conflict." Otherwise that was the chance to take over India by the Pakistanis with American help. That was the plan. That is a great achievement of Indira Gandhi, that (s)he, tactfully showing herself in the side of Russia, (s)he separated Bangladesh from Pakistan, and Pakistan is physically finished, that great achievement, separated Bangladesh. Now Pakistan has no value.

Hari-śauri: Pakistan is finished.

Prabhupāda: Pakistan is finished, because the Bangladesh was supplying jute, rice, pan, great business.

Conversation During Massage -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Why discrimination? I am selling. You come. Pay me. I shall give you.

Rāmeśvara: It's dangerous. They are promoting violence.

Prabhupāda: That dangerous in every item. This Gandhi was also dangerous, although superficially nonviolent. Everyone is dangerous. Until one is devotee, he's dangerous in any position. He's dangerous. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. It is mental concoction that "This is good; this is bad." Everything is bad.

Hari-śauri: Part of their policy for that, though, was because they supported the Israelis, and then the Arabs started to squeeze them on the oil, so they had to get friendly with the Arabs again. So they started to supply them arms.

Prabhupāda: They'll have to change because it is mano-dharma, mental concoction.

Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: Just see. And he is the President.

Satsvarūpa: Now Gargamuni says a new book has come out about Gandhi, telling things about Gandhi that are shocking.

Prabhupāda: Gandhi was actually very sexually inclined. In his autobiography he was written that when his father was dying, he was having sex with his wife. After finishing sex with his wife, then he came to see his dead father. He has admitted. And his association with his granddaughters, granddaughter-in-law, that is also this... A new book has come out?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. He says it tells about that even after he pledged to be brahmacārī he traveled with some young girl.

Prabhupāda: No, even when he was old man and leader he would go, keeping, resting his hand on two young girls. That means he was very fond of sex. There is no doubt about it. What business he...? He is speaking of "Mahatma" Gandhi. He could not get the help of two young men? Why two young girls?

Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: Anything. Śarīra nā mahāśaya, yā saha mithaya saha (?) There is a Bengali proverb that the body is very nice. If you practice something, it will tolerate. Jaya. (devotees offer obeisances) (break) And whatever plan he's making, it will be all frustrated. That is the whole history. Big, big emperor, big, big politicians, they have tried. Roman Empire, the Carthagian Empire, Greece Empire, Egyptian Empire, and Mogul Empire, British Empire—all frustrated. It will never be successful. For a few days, hundred, two hundred years or five hundred years, it may go on. So real plan is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything is successful. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). These rascals, on account of false prestigious position, trying to be happy without God... That is not possible. Throughout the history you study. So many rascals have tried. The Napoleon, the Hitler, the Gandhi, this, that. What they have achieved? Nothing. If we honestly study their lives and activities, what they have achieved? Hm? Do you think they have achieved anything?

Satsvarūpa: No.

Prabhupāda: They simply wasted their time. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Simply wasting time. Therefore this is the best service, to revive Kṛṣṇa consciousness for the human society and send them back home, back to Godhead. This is the best service.

Room Conversation -- January 26, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: So therefore these four animals have been mentioned: śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ (SB 2.3.19). And he is, this class of men, selecting a leader by vote, democracy. So this class man intelligence, just see. And what class of man he will select? And how we desire to be happy by such elected men who is elected by these dog, hog, camel and asses? Are there any intelligent? And you expect good government, peaceful state and... And the śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. Therefore the others, they went to see the lion. So dog, hog, camel, ass will... "Oh, he's a lion." But what is a lion? It is also an animal, big animal. That's all. Similarly, the so-called president and leader and Gandhi, they are also another animal, big animal. So does it mean an animal big and very powerful, he has got the human intelligence? This is civilization. And when you say the right thing, that human life is meant for understanding God and prepare for the next life—"brainwash." This is life. So remain like hog, dog, camel, and asses and go on, be engaged in politics and election—"Then you are right." And if you speak against this mode of civilization—"brainwash."

Room Conversation with Two Indian Guests -- January 27, 1977, Jagannatha Puri:

Prabhupāda: No, it is circumstantial. Circumstantially means the Britishers were not at all concerned about the non... They knew that "We..."

Guest (1): Had to go.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. They knew that "We are not going. So long the nonviolence is there, we are safe." They were occasionally calling Gandhi and patting him: "Sir, why you are doing this? Let us compromise," because he knew that "So long nonviolence will continue, we are safe." But Subash Bose's protest was that "If you don't take to violence, then these people are never going." That was the difference of opinion between Subash Bose and... So when he was taking the Congress in hand, Gandhi became so angry that Subash Bose, being elected President, Gandhi did not attend the Congress. So other workers, he requested Subash Bose that "You resign. Otherwise Gandhi will not."(?) So he resigned. He done right. And then he thought that "Unless I go out of India, I cannot do anything." Then he managed to go out of India, and Singapore, he... Indians with their help and Hitler's intervention, he organized this INA. And when the Britisher's saw that "Now the soldiers are joining national movement, then we cannot rule over," then they decided, "Let us make some compromise, and as much possible, do harm. Divide this India, Pakistan and India, and go away." This is fact.

Room Conversation with Two Indian Guests -- January 27, 1977, Jagannatha Puri:

Prabhupāda: So they decided that because without soldiers and police, how they can rule over? And that, when they saw the soldiers are now joining Subash Bose and they are planning to come to India from Imphal, so they saw, "Now it is impossible." They are politicians. They could understand. So therefore the conclusion is: It is not Gandhi's nonviolence. It is Subash Bose's INA which compelled them to go away.

Guest (1): Bose had impact. Subash Bose had a great impact because, you see...

Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say, violent. When they were threatened with violence... They are not philosophers, that nonviolence will drive away. They are politicians. "You go on with your nonviolence movement." Gandhi did it for twenty years in Urban. What is that?

Pradyumna: Durban, South Africa?

Prabhupāda: Durban, Durban. No conclusion. The Indians are still segregated. I had been in South Africa. So from... What is that? Johannesburg. Johannesburg city, that Indian quarter, at least ten to fifteen miles away in a jungle. And there they have kept slaughterhouse.

Room Conversation with Two Indian Guests -- January 27, 1977, Jagannatha Puri:

Prabhupāda: Yes. And any quarter, the Indians, they organize, and they say, "You go away now, that quarter." Still going on.

Guest (1): Still going on... (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: This is the position of Indian. So that part, Gandhi's movement there, that was a failure. No concession was given, still now. So these people they don't care about this nonviolence, satyāgraha.

Guest (1): But still, in America Martin Luther King saw nonviolence so greatly.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) That is also failure.

Room Conversation with Two Indian Guests -- January 27, 1977, Jagannatha Puri:

Guest (1): This nonviolence is just put in the head of the others.

Prabhupāda: No, nobody cares for this non... (break) That is not, that India has no kṣatriya spirit. Very good kṣatriya spirit. But it was not organized. That is the difference of opinion between Gandhi and Subash. He wanted to organize it.

Guest (1): That's... But Gandhiji knew actually it's not possible to organize this violence in India, because the people are not of that nature.

Prabhupāda: No, everything has got. Just like Subash Bose organized outside.

Guest (1): Subash Bose was a very great organizer and a great politician.

Prabhupāda: He organized. He made compromise, some he made, this Hitler and Tojo, that "Whoever, Indian soldiers surrendered, you..."

Guest (1): They should go to INA.

Prabhupāda: INA. He made this... And the soldiers were voluntarily surrendering.

Room Conversation with Two Indian Guests -- January 27, 1977, Jagannatha Puri:

Prabhupāda: When the Britishers saw, "Now the soldiers are coming in national movement. There is no hope. Better break this and go peacefully so that our business may not be disturbed, our relation may not be disturbed. Make a Commonwealth and so on, so on, hodgepodge. And do as much harm as possible dividing Pakistan and Hindustan, all the food in Pakistan, East Bengal and West Pakistan, gehun(?) and rice." And this Hindustan in starvation, because they were getting gehun(?) from Punjab and rice from East Bengal, and that is stopped. They very clever. Greatest harm they did. And in politics made in such a way that these two people, Hindustan and Pakistan, always fight. So they have gained. You have not gained. Gandhi wanted Hindu-Muslim unity. They made so bitter relationship that they will perpetually fight. That is Gandhi's qualification. They are so great diplomats that "This man wants Hindu-Muslim unity, so make such arrangement that this... They fight will continuous. And give all the food to the Pakistani, so they will starve. Let them eat coal." The Hindustan has got coal mine. "So they will suffer for industrial supply, and they will suffer for food. And they will fight." British diplomats are very clever. Gandhi even offered that "Don't divide India. You better give it to Jhinna." But this commission, this Patita Lalan(?). "No, no," said, "It is... Otherwise, there will be conflagration of always fight. Let it be settled." Gandhi went to this point, that "If you think that without division India will be chaos, so you better give it to Jhinna in the hand. Don't give it to me." But they wanted division.

Room Conversation -- January 27, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: That is your intelligence. You have got a good intellect.

Gurukṛpā: But the intelligence is awarded from... Intelligence, according to the individual, is awarded according to pious activities?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Intelligence is developed by association, by hearing, by experiencing. Otherwise very big intelligence, he's also dull. Don't you see the big, big leaders, Gandhi and Radhakrishnan, they have no intelligence? They are misinterpreting the whole..., although they're passing as very big men, intelligent. And if you say to them that "You are not intelligent; you are wrongly interpreting Bhagavad-gītā," they will be offended. So intelligence is so dull even to such big, big men, what to speak of ordinary men? Big, big demigods, their intelligence also lacking. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, kona: "Somebody very fortunate, he can understand." Kona bhāgyavān. And another place, brahmāra durlabha prema: "Even Brahmā cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). These things are... So this intelligence is not so easy. Na janma-koṭibhiḥ sukṛtair labhyate. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). There are so many places that "To come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy." It requires very, very great intelligence.

Room Conversation -- January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still, we don't know we'll live for fifty years.

Prabhupāda: That is another difficulty. For general calculation a man can live up to a hundred years in this age. So in the middle, stop all rascaldom-compulsory. Now take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because you are persistent to continue your rascaldom, all right, do it up to this point. And then stop all this. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is a concession for continuing the rascaldom. But if he's so fool that he will continue the rascaldom as Jawaharlal Nehru did and Gandhi did and Hitler did and-up to the point of death—let him do. What can be done? They will continue their rascaldom. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Gandhi, unless he was killed by his own men, he did not retire. Jawaharlal Nehru, when he was just... There is no other way. He was in Dehra Dun, still Prime Minister, and he was brought very quickly from Dehra Dun to Delhi, and after one hour he died. All these politicians... And it is learned that he has become a dog in Scandinavia. You cannot say, "No," because you do not know what he has become. But tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. He must have changed the body. So where is your science? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). The prakṛti will change your body. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). And He's giving vivid example. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). And Kṛṣṇa is speaking. I shall not believe in Kṛṣṇa's word, and I shall go to some rascal? We are not so fool. Fools are bahir-artha-māninaḥ. "Oh, we are making this advancement. We will do in the future. We'll do." These are the business of the fools and rascals, not intelligent, which will never be successful. Durāśaya. But they'll stick to that false hope. Kṛṣṇa yei, bhaje sei baḍa catura: "One who takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very intelligent." Actually that is the fact. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151). All the... There are many rascals, and they are under the laws of nature wandering in this material world in different forms of life. So out of many such millions and millions, if one is fortunate, guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja: (CC Madhya 19.151) he enters into Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Room Conversation -- January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is the... What do you think? What is your definition of mahātmā?

Guest (1): Gītā said, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gītā says, but what you say? Recently I went to Wardha, Mahatma Gandhi's āśrama. Nobody is there. And they are worshiping Mahatma's lantern, and Mahatma's cādara. Not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. (chuckles) There is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. And here it is said, bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. This is going on. So read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Learn. Everything is there. Make your life successful. That is our proposal. Come here. We have developed this center in good quarter. Discuss Bhagavad-gītā and try to do what Kṛṣṇa says. Make your life perfect. (Hindi) We are misguided. Misguided... (Hindi) Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā: "This mahātmā; this is God; this is function; this you have to do." Do it. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things anyone can do. A child can do.

Room Conversation -- February 3, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Bhāgavata: Different motive. So Hitler, he had no...

Prabhupāda: No Hitler actually helped him, all the soldiers. And then the Sikh soldiers and Gurkha soldiers voluntarily surrendered to join INA. And this information obliged the Britishers to go away. Then "Now the army is joining national movement, so there is no hope." The Gandhi's noncooperation, the clerks' noncooperation the, some of these teachers' noncooperation what do they care for? But when they saw that "The soldiers are now going to join this non..." Gandhi diagnosed the disease rightly, that "The Britishers are here on account of our cooperation. Without this cooperation, they'll go away." That's a fact. So his noncooperation movement was... It was a good trick, but actually he did not succeed. And this movement succeeded. That "Now he's organizing Indian soldiers for national movement. There is no chance."

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: So you reply this, that "You come. I shall train you. You will guide. We are prepared to guide you, but it is not possible to, bring men outside to guide you. You come to us. I shall train you how to guide." This is the reply. And that is wanted. This Bon Mahārāja failed. Why? He wanted... Guru Mahārāja wanted that you start one temple in London. But he was thinking of bringing, taking men from India. Actually he had no.... (break) That is the fact. Therefore he failed. Instead of serving Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, he wanted to serve Vivekananda. To become like Vivekananda and "I shall be very much eulogized in my country, second Vivekananda." That was his ambition. He never wished to defy Vivekananda and elevate Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He has introduced in his Oriental Institute, Gandhi philosophy, Vivekananda philosophy. Just see his position. He's appreciating... We are simply condemning Gandhi philosophy, and he's appreciating Gandhi. We are simply depreciating Vivekananda, and he's introducing Vivekananda. This is his position. He cannot understand even that where is philosophy in Vivekananda and Gandhi? Gandhi is nationalist. Again problem with your finger. Twenty-four hours, finger problem or nose problem. That I am observing. No attention. So where is philosophy in Vivekananda or Gandhi? He was nationalist. Nationalist means dehātma-buddhi. Dehātma-buddhi means sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13), cows and asses. He worked throughout his whole life for Indian people. In Africa also, he wasted twenty years, and India, thirty years. Fifty years. He lived for seventy-eight years. So twenty-seven years was for his education or something like that and fifty years wasted. This is his position. And he's a big man. Actually he wasted fifty years. Twenty years in Durban and thirty years in... He started in 1917, and svarāja was, independence was given to India in '47. He had nothing... It is not due to him. It is that Subash Bose's INA.

Conversation on Roof -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Ne, one or two will do. Why so many? That's... So what benefit he has got, this Manasvī?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually he is at a great loss. Any position he had here when he was a devotee, he has lost everything. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...with this lantern? Electricity was introduced when we were boy, and that also not every house could provide electricity. Formerly they used to utilize gas, coal gas. If one man has got gaslight in his house, he is considered to be rich man. And gas... Mantle... Formerly electricity was... What is that? Carbon? Two carbon? In the morning it has to be changed. That Mahatma Gandhi Road was Harrison Road. So in our childhood, when the carbon would be changed, they would throw. We shall collect it.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: If I require, I'll take. So Gandhi discovered, and the discovery was there Surendranath Ban... That they're exploiting us, so noncooperate. They are ruling over us by our cooperation, so let us noncooperate." But that is a foolish policy. Poverty-stricken country, how they can noncooperate? That was not successful, but this program, Subhash Bose's tit-for-tat, military, that was successful. They're keeping our men as soldiers and police, and by their strength they're ruling over India. And Subhash Bose made a plan—the soldiers and police will noncooperate. They'll join his INA. And when they began to join Indian National Army, these intelligent Britishers could understand, "Now it is no more possible. With whose cooperation, we shall kick?" Then they made a friendly settlement. Friendly means "Divide it so that they'll perpetually fight, and let us go."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like that division was simply spiteful.

Prabhupāda: That is politics.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Still, they're prosperous. They have got car. They have got business. They have got factories. Although they are harassed in so many ways, still they are prosperous. They have got their shops and business house in Johannesburg, and they cannot remain there. They must go back. So that was a failure of Gandhi. Gandhi for twenty years agitated. General Smuts, he was the head at that time. And he was beaten. He was so much troubled. Once upon a time Gandhi was captured and beat so severely that he was going to die immediately. Some English South African friend, he saved him. So Gandhi's life from this side is a failure. He could not achieve any success there. Then he thought that "I shall drive these Englishmen from my country." He came here in 1917.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gandhi was born in...?

Prabhupāda: Gandhi is a Gujarati.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he went to South Africa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. South Af... He had no practice here. One attorney, he told me in Bombay that "Your Gandhi was waiting for cases here, sitting in this chair." He was not even successful lawyer. Then he got a case in Africa. He thought it wise, "Let me go there." And there, instead of becoming a lawyer, he became a political agitator. So to take equal status for the Indians he fought there. And that was failure. Still it is going on. They are very determined not to give any advantage to anyone except these whites.

Morning Room Conversation -- February 16, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think the government knows what you are doing.

Prabhupāda: They know. They appreciate. The Home Member has appreciated. He personally told Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, "Yes, we want that this movement should spread all over the world." Not in writing, but verbally he has stated, although he's Christian. Every sane man will appreciate. Indira Gandhi also. You said that she has advised.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Unless she appreciates, why she has done? And the ambassador.

Morning Room Conversation -- February 16, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Indian government should be proud that Indian culture is being accepted in America.

Hari-śauri: They can see that we're a lot more effective than any Christian ministry. We're a lot more effective in the work we're doing for spreading their culture, or Indian culture, than the Christians are in India.

Prabhupāda: Just like Gandhi. Gandhi was so big man. His nonviolence creed, who has accepted it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one.

Prabhupāda: Although nonviolence is a very good word, but who can accept it? We don't say such rascal things, imagination. We introduce Kṛṣṇa, encouraging, "Fight!" Nonsense nonviolence. (chuckles) "Kṣatriya, you should fight. Don't talk nonsense." Kutas tvā kaśmalam idam. "What kind of talking you are doing? You're My friend." And he wanted to introduce nonviolence. Where is nonviolence in Gītā? Artificial, all artificial.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Not thousands. Millions. Kṛṣṇa says within the Bhagavad-gītā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But until you came and gave us this knowledge, we were thinking like that.

Prabhupāda: Everyone. And there were so many Gītā scholars.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I read the Bhagavad-gītā, but I still thought like that.

Prabhupāda: And leaders like Gandhi. They would never say all these things. Nonviolence. He has manufactured his own idea, taking, cheating people with Gītā. This is first time, we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is.

Room Conversation with Adi-kesava Swami -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: When Gopāla is coming? He'll be able to...

Hari-śauri: Twenty-sixth or so, he's coming.

Ādi-keśava: Another question is...

Prabhupāda: We can take help from Indira Gandhi if we bring recommendation from the embassy.

Ādi-keśava: Right. Another thing is sometimes the intellectuals, they are backing us, and the very low class people, they also like us very much because they feel... The black people feel, for instance, that we are being persecuted like they have been persecuted. But the middle class people, they are the ones who are against us, and they are by far the greatest number.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Evening Darsana -- February 24, 1977, Mayapura:
Prabhupāda: This is material nature. Asuras are being created, and the whole plan is to kill them. So struggle for existence. The asuras, they want to live. Mahiṣāsura he's struggling with the weapons of Māyā, Durgā. He'll be failure, but still-ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham (BG 3.27)—by false egotism he's thinking, "I shall conquer over the material..." That is scientist, so-called scientist. Asuras are... They are planning that "We shall do without nature's control." That is mūḍha. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā dura... (BG 7.14). They cannot conquer it. That is not possible. But you are struggling. You do not want the control of nature. And nature is so strong... Now it is raining. Within one hour they can vanquish the whole world. Doesn't take time. If there is one cyclone and heavy rain, then you are put into danger. So long it is mild, it is all right. And as soon as becomes ferocious, then finish you. What you'll control the nature? When there is no rain, you cannot bring in rain; and when there is heavy rain, you cannot stop it. Then where is your control? You rascal, you think like that, "We shall control over nature." This is your rascaldom. You cannot control over. So everything has its use, and how to use it properly, that is all described in the Bhagavad-gītā. And if you take instruction of Kṛṣṇa and ultimately surrender to Him, that is success of life. Otherwise, struggle for existence, survival of the fittest... Nature is fittest. You'll die; nature will be... You are not fit to fight with the nature. That is asura temperament. And that will never be successful. So many asuras came. Formerly there was Hiraṇyakaśipu, Rāvaṇa, Kaṁsa and others. In the recent years there was Hitler, there was Churchill, there was Lenin, and Gandhi and so on, so on. For few days. Then gone: "Get out. Bas. Finished." Big, big scientists, big, big asuras, big, big leaders, what they could do? Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvaiḥ. Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Read from the... Tribhir guṇamayaiḥ. Seventh Chapter.
Evening Darsana -- February 24, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Who has done it?

Jayatīrtha: Parīkṣit.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Actual.

Jayatīrtha: People I've shown it to like it much better than this picture. It's more realistic. Has a very classical look.

Prabhupāda: This is a protest against Gandhi's nonviolence, (laughter) bogus nonviolence. So it is a protest against that idea.

Jayatīrtha: Yes, this is not a nonviolent picture.

Prabhupāda: I do not know how he wanted to draw nonviolence from this idea. This is going on, distorting the real fact. Politics without violence is impossible. There is a Bengali proverb, Naste base gun tata:(?) "A girl has come to the stage for dancing, and she is pulling her veil." (laughs) She has to dance freely, and what is the use of...? Nasta base gun tata.(?) In politics nonviolence, there is no history. The Britishers took it an opportunity to continue their ruling.

Room Conversation With Artists and About BTG -- February 25, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: In my old Back to Godhead I discussed Gandhi, Churchill, Jhinna, but with reference to the philosophy. I criticized them on the basis of our philosophy.

Rāmeśvara: For example, Rūpānuga just wrote one article which we published, and in this article he was describing some work of some scientists in Europe. They were trying to prove by their experiments that life comes from life. So he was quoting them. He was describing their work, but the whole purpose was to get people to accept the Vedas, to show that even the scientist's conclusion is the same as the Vedas. Therefore the Vedas are authorized.

Prabhupāda: Hm. That is nice.

Rāmeśvara: So that idea, if it's done expertly, can be used...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Evening Darsana -- February 26, 1977, Mayapura:

Lokanātha: It's fortune to take birth in the West now. It's fortunate to take birth in America or England? (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Not all. (laughter) Not all. The fortunate, those who are so fortunate, they are now opposing me. The Western people, they are now opposing this movement, so they are not fortunate. So everywhere there are fortunate and unfortunate. But mostly in this age they are unfortunate. Either in the Western countries or in this country, they are unfortunate mostly. They cannot understand. In India at least those who are not very educated, mass of people, they believe transmigration of the soul. They very easily believe it because culture is based on that, pūrva-janma paro janma. They believe that "If I act sinfully, then I'll have to suffer next life, and because I did not do properly, therefore I am suffering in this life." Still they believe. But the so-called educated people, they are trying to set aside this. They say, "Superstition." And the leaders say that "India, giving more stress on the soul, not on the body, India's position is so degraded." This is the leaders' opinion. Big, big leaders, they think. Therefore the so-called leaders or learned scholars, they write notes on Bhagavad-gītā, but they never give any idea of spiritual life. They utilize Bhagavad-gītā for material end. This is going on. Just like our big leader, Gandhi. He was supposed to be very strict follower of Bhagavad-gītā, and he has never instructed about spiritual life.

Nārāyaṇa: Satsvarūpa Mahārāja was telling a story on the way back from the Ganges that you had said that Gandhi, he was supposed to be mahātmā, but after he won victory, independence, by his activities, then they said, "Now you can stop meat-eating. You can stop cow slaughter throughout India." He says, "No, no. How can we do this? The Muhammadans, the Muslims, they are eating meat."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- March 22, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Suppose I am a very big business magnate. Next life, if I am going to become a dog—according to my karma, the nature's law will act—then what is benefit? One day before, Indira Gandhi was so important. Next day I'll maybe(?) nowhere, finished. Nobody knows where is Indira Gandhi. Just twenty-four hours she was most prominent woman. And after twenty-four hours nobody cares to look at her. This nature's law, how you can check? This is going on. Any moment, anything can be changed by the laws of nature. So India's importance is there. They know the law. Therefore so long the body, full of intelligence, human body, is there, they'll utilize it very... That is life, not to be carried away by the waves of nature. This is India's duty. So we want to make our institution at least a place for understanding this knowledge. It doesn't matter only a few persons may understand. That is sufficient. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ sahasraśaḥ: "If you keep one moon in the sky, that is sufficient for light. What is the use of millions of stars?" Modern education, they are creating twinkling stars, millions. All useless for light. No light. And our Vedic civilization is: "Create one moon. That's all." That is sufficient. We respect, therefore, ācāryas. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, not the so-called voted leaders. We don't care for them. What is their value? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). You say, "Oh, they are being liked, eulogized, by so many hundreds and thousands," but what these hundreds and thousands of people are? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara. They're kept in ignorance like dogs, hogs, camels and asses. This propaganda should go on by the ISKCON movement. Bombay is the nicest place. Invite them. Convince them. We have got answers for everyone, however big scientist, big philosopher, big politician. Bhāgavata has answered everyone. How selected animals' name has been given. This is Bhāgavata. How the comparison is perfect. I have tried to explain why a particular animal has been selected.

Room Conversation -- March 22, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So the sum and substance is that I have got the opportunity of human form, everyone, and they should not be kept in the same animal consciousness. This is civilization. They should be raised to the standard of inquiring. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is civilization. This, civilization? To keep them in darkness? Hm? Sanātana Gosvāmī went to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The first question is ke āmi kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya. "Sir, I was prime minister, and I was very much eulogized by the people as paṇḍita." Grāmya-vyavahāre paṇḍita tāi satya māni. "These village people, they call me paṇḍita, and I also, such a fool, I accept, 'Yes, I am paṇḍita. Yes.' But factually, if I inquire, 'What kind of paṇḍita'? then āpanāra hitāhita kichui nā jāni: 'I am such a learned paṇḍita that I do not know what is the ultimate goal of my life. I am such a paṇḍita.' Therefore I have come to You, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You say what is my ultimate goal of life." This is approaching guru, not that "I am paṇḍita, I am brāhmaṇa, or minister. Why shall I go to learn? I can teach everyone whatever nonsense I know. Let them..." What is that injunction? That emasculation? That Sanjay Gandhi became?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sterilization.

Prabhupāda: Rascal, he's a boy, and he thought by sterilization the country will be delivered. Just see. By force. He thought... He became learned leader in one day, and he thought, "This will be sacrifice now." This is going on. "Because I am Indira Gandhi's son, I am perfect." Nature's law—"Yes, you are perfect. It is all right. But I kick out in a moment—finished."

Room Conversation -- March 22, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: There is no question of becoming impatient. You have got diamond. No buyer of diamond—that does not mean you have to throw it away.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And sell something less.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Diamond is diamond. It must be purchased by the suitable customer. Because there is no customer I shall throw it away? So we have got diamond. It is not possible that everyone will purchase it, but there must be diamonds. People must know that "Here is diamond. If I want it, I must pay the proper price." That I want to establish. Why India's culture should be lost in this way, in the wilderness?I am not cheap patriot like Gandhi and... I want to give Indian culture to the whole world. I'm not going to cheat people, taking Bhagavad-gītā and speaking all nonsense. I want to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is my mission. Why shall I cheat you, a gentleman? (Hindi)

Guest (1): We'll try to follow your message properly.

Room Conversation -- March 22, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Five thousand. Is that education? Better not to be educated. Those who are not educated, they purchase ten rupees' worth of potato and sit down anywhere and half... (laughter) Five rupees. Yes.

Guest (1): All vegetable are...

Prabhupāda: You take some dāl. Go to house to house, dāl. They have no scarcity. And after spending so much money, living at the cost of fathers, mothers—unemployed. No job. No food. Then plan something, Naxalite, this party, that party. Join some political movement and help Indira Gandhi. They are paid to make propaganda. They are paid. And they earn money by smuggling.

Guest (1): But that all has vanished now. That plan has failed now completely.

Room Conversation -- March 24, 1977, Bombay:

Pañcadraviḍa: We can bring some ḍābs from down the road if you like.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have already ḍāb.

Karttikeya Mahadevia: I'll bring it.

Prabhupāda: Nobody speaks about Indira Gandhi. (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's like she never existed.

Pañcadraviḍa: There's one big sign up that says, "When Mrs. I became All-I, then the people say, 'Goodbye.' " (laughter)

Prabhupāda: There is a sign like that?

Pañcadraviḍa: Yes, a big sign. I think it's on Marine Drive.

Room Conversation with Ratan Singh Rajda (Member of Parliament) -- March 27, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: The material adjustment... Just like we felt little danger under the regime of Indira Gandhi. Now we have another feeling. This is material adjustment. Material adjustment may be temporary beneficial, but that is not permanent beneficial.

Mr. Rajda: Unless there is adhyātmika adjustment, there cannot be lasting benefit.

Prabhupāda: The difficulty is... That we do not know. Just like you take a fish from the water and put it on the land. It will never become happy. Again you throw him in the water, he will feel happy. So the living entity is different from prakṛti. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly stated, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtim. These material elements, earth, water, air, fire, ether, mind, intelligence, ego, these are gross and subtle material elements. And the living being, jīva-bhūta, is superior than the inferior material elements. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. Parā-prakṛti, it is part and parcel of God. Unless we understand this fact, which is very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, this material adjustment will never make us happy.

Room Conversation with Scientists, Svarupa Damodara, and Dr. Sharma -- March 31, 1977, Bombay:

Dr. Sharma: I was going to bring to your kind notice, ever since we become independent, our moral fiber is really breaking down. We are spiritually, I think, the..., the deterioration has been very fast after 1947. Somehow this is...

Prabhupāda: This is our so-called leaders misled them. Even Gandhi misled. That Vinobha Bhave is misleading, what to speak of others.

Dr. Sharma: Many of the even small temples in villages, their revenue have been taken away after independence. There are many small temples in where I come from, our village in Rajasthan. And when I was a small boy I used to go to the temple because, you know, my grandfather and my father used to go. And there was a very rich life in the villages because, you know, early morning, we would take a shower, bath, and go to the temples and do our pūjā, and the temple also we'd get some prasādam, and there was some land grants attached to a temple, some cows...

Prabhupāda: Some contribution.

Interview with Mr. Koshi (Asst. Editor of The Current Weekly) -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have been taught to become group of dogs and crows. That's all. These political party.

Mr. Koshi: You are against politicians.

Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not against, neither for. But these things will go on. This is going on since the creation, but that will not help. There have been, in other countries there has been Napoleon, there has been Hitler, there has been Mussolini, there has been Churchill. In India also we had many leaders like Gandhi and others. So what contribution they made? People are suffering.

Mr. Koshi: But you yourself were involved in some of the movements.

Interview with Mr. Koshi (Asst. Editor of The Current Weekly) -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Mr. Koshi: Interpretation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spoil their own life and spoil others. This is going on. The meaning is clear, but these rascals are thinking that "Meaning is not clear. Kṛṣṇa left for me to clear the meaning." That's all. Such rascals, they are touching Bhagavad-gītā. As if Kṛṣṇa left for him to clear the meaning. These rubbish things we want to stop. Of course, it is not possible. Many others are. But we are trying little, that's all. We cannot make any compromise. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is a fact. They are completely under the grip of material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). They are declaring independence. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). False, ahaṅkāra, egotism. Nature in one slap, crack! Indira Gandhi is so powerful, one slap, "Get out." What can you do? One slap is sufficient. They do not understand. Jump. They do not know. They are completely under the control of prakṛti, and prakṛti is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). They do not discuss this. Still they are scholar in Bhagavad-gītā. Simply picking up some words, they become scholar. Is that scholarship? They do not read even the whole Bhagavad-gītā, neither they understand. This is going on.

Interview with Mr. Koshi (Asst. Editor of The Current Weekly) -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Mr. Koshi: Do you take interest in the political happenings?

Prabhupāda: That will go on.

Mr. Koshi: No, but do you take interest?

Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi goes, another Gandhi comes, another Gandhi goes, another Gandhi comes, another. That is the history, whole history of the world. There is nothing new. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed. Politics means chewing the chewed, that's all.

Mr. Koshi: Chewing the?

Prabhupāda: Chewing something, just like sugar candy. You have chewed it, taken all the juice, you have thrown it away. Another man is chewing it. It is like that. Indira Gandhi also promised so many things, and she is now out, and somebody is speaking something.

Room Conversation -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: America gave a lot of money to the Congress Party because Sanjay Gandhi was very friendly with America, with agent of many American companies.

Prabhupāda: America was against Indira?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. In the last one year they had changed. Because of Sanjay. One good thing about Sanjay Gandhi was he was completely anti-Communist. He was pro-American and pro cap-free society. So India's relation with Russia was getting loose and with America was getting tight. Because of Sanjay Gandhi. So that was one good thing.

Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). What is the goal of life, they do not know. Svārtha-gatim. Everyone says, "I must see first of all my self-interest." But he does not know what is self-interest. That is not unnatural. If I say that "I must see first of all myself," you cannot blame me, because everyone does that. But you must know what is your svārtha-gatim. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). So it is in paper published that they have been forbidden to go out?

Room Conversation -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prakash Narayan.

Prabhupāda: Jaya Prakash Narayan. Even in old days they were dealing with this politics. What they will do good to the people? But they do not know. This is disease. They do not study the whole history of the world. What Gandhi has done? What Hitler has done? What Napoleon has done? And what they will do? But they are applauded. "He is promising within one year poverty will be driven away." All false propaganda. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). Vimūḍhātmā. Rascals. They are promising so many things. They will never be able to do anything. And they are applauded.

Room Conversation -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you advised Gandhi that he should retire.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I advised Gandhi that he should retire. He never retired. That's all right. And our program is, they have chucked out. Pañcāśordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet. You show your all nonsense ability up to fifty years. Don't go more than that. Because you are rascal, you will never be able to do anything, but jump like monkey up to fifty years, not more than that. Monkey jumping may be continued up to fifty years. Then retire. They will continue monkey jumping up to the last point of death.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And then he'll jump into the grave.

Prabhupāda: That's all. And then go to hell. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So after jumping, when this body is finished, he is going to accept another body offered by nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). Rascals, they do not know how nature is working. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). Making plan and wasting time, wasting their valuable life. At least, this institution which we have started to give this enlightenment, they must be maintained in India in a first-class standard, that at least some intelligent persons can take advantage.

Room Conversation -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Wonderful Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Yes. If simply they appreciate that Kṛṣṇa is wonderful, their life will be successful. This very simple thing. A child can do it. Kṛṣṇa is wonderful, there is no doubt. Let them admit only. They will be pushed forward in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I'll request only these big, big men that maintain this institution to attract intelligent persons from all over the world. And you do all nonsense, whatever you like, but maintain this. And if possible, after retirement come and do practical something. What is this nonsense? Andhā yathāndhair upa... What he will do? They are promising so many rascal things. What you will do? What you have got? Indira promised so many things. Bluffed. What she can do? Now she is, herself, Indira Gandhi. Te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Īśa-trantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. They want to do something. What happens? Gandhi, when he started nonviolence, "Within one year" And he dragged for fifty years. Twenty years in Durban and thirty years in India. Could not do anything. If you say that Gandhi could not do anything, people will be angry. But see, study the whole history. What did he do? Did the Britishers care for Gandhi's nonviolent movement? Pat him. "Let this rascal go on with his movement. We'll go on." That was the disagreement with Subhash Bose. Subhash Bose said, "Mahatmaji, they will never go by this nonviolence. You have to take to violence." He said that "I will never have independence, but I will not take it." Therefore he left India. When he organized that INA and when the Britishers felt the (indistinct), "Now the soldiers have joined," all hopes lost. They did not give up India for Gandhi's nonviolence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is what the usual belief is. The usual belief is that it was due to Gandhi's nonviolence.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is said in Hong Kong, somewhere. People were astonished. Nobody said like that. And this is the fact.

Room Conversation about Harijanas -- April 10, 1977, Bombay:

Bhakti-caru: But the thing is Dr. Amritsar is dead now. He was the leader of the harijanas.

Prabhupāda: Whoever may be, but they could not do anything. Neither they can do. They do not know how to elevate them. We know that. We can help. And we are actually doing it. The idea is they are feeling frustration for want of leader. We are prepared to guide them. To the highest perfection of life. (pause) The defect was Gandhi started this harijana movement, keeping them where they are, and at the same time, changing by rubber-stamp, "harijana." That must be failure.

Room Conversation about Harijanas -- April 10, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Now harijana, he has..., Gandhi has degraded the name of harijana to such a position that if somebody comes and if he says, "I am harijana," immediately we shall hate him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We hate him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we know there is camar bhangi, he has changed the name, "harijana."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is another thing that we should point out in our letter. That what is the actual meaning of harijana? "One who serves Hari, or Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: One who has been elevated to the position of associate of Hari. That has to be done. Then it will be first class. That we can do. Nobody can do.

Morning Conversation -- April 11, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...the planes. It was kept checked by these rascal leaders. Dr. Radhakrishnan, Aurobindo, this, that, nonsense, interpreting in a different way, Gandhi. It could not distribute its brilliance. Now it is being distributed to show the brilliance and the knowledge first of all. Is it not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very much being distributed now, and everyone is appreciating.

Prabhupāda: I am confident this will go on, provided our men are following the process which I have given to them, following the rules and regulations, chanting. Books they have got sufficient already. Simply have to repeat. You haven't got to manufacture. Any fool you are. Nobody can...

Room Conversation -- April 13, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: It is a dangerous civilization. You... You should... (pause) Dangerous civilization that labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte. After many, many millions of years one gets the chance of becoming a human being, especially civilized and especially in India. They will bring the same. And Kṛṣṇa personally says that if this chance is missed and a person does not become God realized, then he again returns back to the..., to the... Today I am a prime minister. Tomorrow, if I become a dog... What is this civilization? And they will have to become. Nature's law we cannot avoid. And there is no question, "Why you are touching me? I am prime minister." Who cares for you? You have to take account of your activities, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). So human life is so important, and we are simply wasting this valuable life with this temporary adjustment of so-called happiness or distress, big, big plans. Simply bluffing. Indira Gandhi, one daridrāṇaṁ hata(?): "Poverty drive away." Now she is poverty-stricken. "Oh, you want to drive away poverty? Now drive away your own poverty. Where is your position? How you can drive away? You do not dare to come out." Twelve nights. Within one day. Who has made this? This is possible for everyone. Why do they not care, this important knowledge? This knowledge is India's knowledge, and India government is callous. They are not interested in distributing this knowledge. Sarasvatī jñāna-khale yathā satī. Just like a person who has got enough knowledge, but he does not give it to others, it is to check the flame. Such a risky civilization... The knowledge is there, and people are kept in darkness. What is this? Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So we are the only friends, within this world, of the human society.

Room Conversation -- April 13, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Prakash Narayan.

Prabhupāda: Jaya Prakash Narayan. Morarji Desai, Indira Gandhi, and... What they'll do? Churchill and this and Napoleon, Hitler. Simply misguiding, whole history. Simply mis... They are rascals. They do not know what is what, and they lead. Gandhi... All rascals. Vivekananda and Sai Baba, this, that, so many... They should be stopped. That is real philanthropic activities. Where is...? Now we are going to show this planetarium. These rascal scientists: "All desert. All rocks and desert." Simply this planet, for his father's property. This is now happening. "The moon planet is a desert." And from the desert such brilliant light is coming that is illuminating at night the whole universe. And we have to believe it because they are spoken by scientists. You see? All rascals, fools, rogues, thieves, they are leading. And our determination is to stop these rascals. That is our... It is not that "Let the rascals go on with their... Let us make our salvation." Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "No, no, no, I don't want. I don't want. If there is salvation, I must take them also." This is Vaiṣṇava. "I don't want such salvation for my personal..." This is Vaiṣṇava, para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye (CC Madhya 6.254). Naturally a Vaiṣṇava will be unhappy. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). You know this verse? So we must know that these so-called leaders... Just see. He could not do it nicely.

Room Conversation -- April 13, 1977, Bombay:
Prabhupāda: Any intelligent person gets the Bhagavad-gītā. The rascals are reading Bhagavad-gītā, do not understand a line even. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They do not question even. And after the destruction, body, I am not annihilated. Then where I am going? What is my next life? Na jāyate na mriyate vā. He does not die. The body is changed. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). So everything is clearly said. They do not inquire even that "After changing this body or change dress, what kind of body or dress I am going to have?" Answer is there. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. Everything there. And they are reading Bhagavad-gītā. Gandhi's reading Bhagavad-gītā. Tilak is reading Bhagavad-gītā. Where is their knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā? And misleading all, writing commentary, "Bhagavad-gītā means nationalism, nonviolence," protesting that "If Kṛṣṇa is fighting, I don't want that Kṛṣṇa, even I am extricated from the Hindu society." Gandhi has said. Bhagavad-gītā should be according to his whims. If you can change the verdict of Bhagavad-gītā, then why you take Bhagavad-gītā? Is that authority? If you..., government gives you some law. If you say, "No, no, I don't like this item. I... It should be like this," then is that law, that "I'll take Bhagavad-gītā..."? All these rascals are doing that. The Cinmayananda, they are now: "I'll change according to my whims." Then where is the authority? If I say that "Girirāja, you go there, to the bank," "No, no, I cannot do this. I can do only this," then where is my authority? (laughs) Just see. These rascals are doing that. We are therefore presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, no change. We do not change. Anybody seriously reading our book, he'll be liberated. There is no doubt. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That's a fact. If not all books, simply Kṛṣṇa book, if one reads carefully, daily, he is liberated undoubtedly.
Room Conversation with Ratan Singh Rajda M.P. 'Nationalism and Cheating' -- April 15, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Why they should accept this? And this is one man's attempt.

Mr. Rajda: It has got to be institutionalized.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not make that? This political change, this political situation change, it will go on. Today you are powerful. Tomorrow I am powerful. That does not make any difference. Indira Gandhi was so powerful. In one day everything finished. So it may be finished, my position. Mohitaṁ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvaiḥ. They do not know, behind these all activities there is a person who can do anything He likes. So what about to know about Him? So these things are there in India. The knowledge is not secret. It is open. So without distorting it, without breaking it and spoiling it, why not give it as it is for the benefit of the whole humanity? You are young man. You can think over.

Room Conversation with Ratan Singh Rajda M.P. 'Nationalism and Cheating' -- April 15, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And this designation can be moved, removed at any moment. Indira Gandhi, no more prime minis... Designation finished. So sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170), when one become free all designation, tat-paratvena nirmalam, simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness he becomes purified. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhakti... Then bhakti begins.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
(BG 18.54)

This is the preliminary condition. So it means as soon as they have become devotee, they have no more designation. This conception is not there: "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim"—no.

Mr. Rajda: Right. Very good.

Prabhupāda: Finished. Nirmala. So... So you are giving note?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What would you like in the note?

Mr. Rajda: Just the problem that you...

Prabhupāda: Write. What I am saying, write him and give him. This is the most important point.

Room Conversation with Ratan Singh Rajda M.P. 'Nationalism and Cheating' -- April 15, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: By keeping one lion and fighting him and it is enjoyed. What is this? What they have gained? In this way, the privileged... Is it not subject perception? What Napoleon has done? Or Hitler has done? Or Churchill has done?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about nationalism here in India?

Prabhupāda: They are imitating. What Gandhi has done? These things are cheating, spoiled. Then they have now a slogan to drive away poverty. Vivekananda imitated, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. So Vivekananda started his mission in India hundred years ago. Why there are so many daridras lying on the street at night? Hm? Everywhere. Here you can say, "India is poverty-stricken." That is your imagination. Accepting that, those who are materially opulent, why they are also, they're lying on the street? Why in Bowery Street they are lying on the street? Why in the Bedford Park English boys are lying on street?

Room Conversation with Ratan Singh Rajda M.P. 'Nationalism and Cheating' -- April 15, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Cheater. The government is cheater; the government men, they should be honest?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Therefore how can the citizens be honest?

Prabhupāda: Why Indira Gandhi is condemned? She was cheating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nixon too.

Prabhupāda: Everyone. And what is guarantee they will not do, this present government?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So force in this age is finished as means a for influencing honesty. Force will not work, because the leaders are dishonest. Then we have to teach the principle of love.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Ram Jethmalani (Parliament Member) -- April 16, 1977, Bombay:

Ram Jethmalani: But I don't know that animals, on the contrary, serve each other. It is men who do.

Prabhupāda: But what is the use of serving? What you can do? What service you have done? You cannot do anything beyond the laws of nature. Now Indira is in difficulty. What can you do? In one day, everything is finished. The law of nature is so strict. You cannot do anything. You are falsely proud that you want to do. It is not possible. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). You can do only the service, that "You are not this body, you are spirit soul, your business is this." This is dharma(?).

tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ
tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham...
(SB 1.5.18)

Now they are declaring... Our Mrs. Gandhi also said, daridra-anadha.(?) Then what she has done?

Ram Jethmalani: No, she has not done anything.

Prabhupāda: No, no, now she is adha(?). So who is doing this? You are completely under the laws of nature. You cannot violate. If you are tied up, hands and legs, what you can do? First of all liberate yourself. Then talk of liberating others.

Conversation with Yadubara (after seeing film) -- April 17, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you are spoiling your life, according to them. Then why is he coming here to see you?

Prabhupāda: Anyways, these rascals, we have to deal with these rascals. Whatever little service they can give us. Even Gandhi was of opinion that "There was no Kṛṣṇa, there was no battle of Kurukṣetra. It is imagination."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Battlefield of the mind," he said.

Prabhupāda: Everyone takes Bhagavad-gītā as fictitious, and you can interpret it in any way you like. That is the... This Swami Cinmayananda is also that class. He is a sādhu.

Morning Talk -- April 18, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: But if he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he may rise up to that position by endeavor. Then he will fall down. And I have given this example, Nixon and Indira Gandhi. This is factual. To come to take the post of prime minister, to become the president, is not easy job. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa, great hardship. Similarly, the Māyāvādīs, they also undergo severe austerities to become one with the Supreme, impersonalists. Any... I have given the... Karmī, jñānī, yogi, politicians, and everyone—everyone has got some aim. Many rich men, they commit suicide. So this is possi... This is the ultimate result of nondevotee. He may rise up by endeavor to certain position as he imagined, "This is the best position." Just like we are also trying to occupy the best position, to become associate of Kṛṣṇa, to live with devotees. We have got also some aim, and the nondevotees, they have also got aim. But the devotees will never fall down, while the nondevotee will fall down. And if devotee circumstantially, by chance, falls down—not like them-he'll be again picked up by Kṛṣṇa. This is the science, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A devotee's position is certain. Now, take for example my position. For ordinary karmī to possess so many properties all over the world and so many other things, money and everything, if karmī had to do it, how much hardship he had to go. And actually they are doing. Is it possible for one's life to acquire so many?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, even Birla doesn't have.

Room Conversation -- April 19, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So what is this yoga? (laughs) Sanjay Gandhi's yoga, just see. A rogue, devil, he is practicing yoga. His mother was practicing also yoga, the same.

Bhakti-caru: They want to pull their youth back.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Bhakti-caru: They are practicing yoga. They want to pull their youth back. (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: No Indira Gandhi's news?

Bhakti-caru: (continues to read news articles) No... Indira Gandhi... "Infighting with Civic Congress Party leads to more powers for laborers." "Civil judge regrets motives against magistrates." (reads more headings and newspaper articles) " 'The revolutionary work of eliminating poverty and unemployment in the rural areas can be accomplished by a considerable extent through the khādi and village industries. To achieve these objectives modern technology must be used to rise to the extent possible.' He hopes the new commission would take steps in this direction." (continues reading news articles; Prabhupāda is silent)

Prabhupāda: Hm. Hm. That's all.

Room Conversation -- April 22, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So good milk, you give little, not at a time much. Half a cup. So I said these political rascals... Just see. Trouble. They don't want democracy. "And we'll by force remain." Where is the democracy? Indira Gandhi was to give like that. Where is democracy? Vote rejected him that his (her) election was invalid. Still, he (she) would call, "Emergency." People of Kali-yuga, unfortunate, they are controlled by these fourth-class, tenth-class men. All unhappy. Nobody is in peace. That is also punishment because they are godless. Nobody will come to hear us, follow us, and they'll be punished by these politicians. They'll corrupt.

Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 23, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And you want cloth. That is primary necessities. So if you become independent about these things, your eighty percent economic problem is solved. So this is a wrong type of civilization only. That Gandhi's program was very nice. We want to revive.

Mr. Dwivedi: No, we... In fact, we have sent our students at Sabarmati Ashram itself, and the person... He is still with us. He's top of the list in the Sabarmati Ashrama, who was doing it.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, we can take up this enterprise immediately. Whether we can induce the villagers, neighboring inhabitants, to cooperate? That is wanted. Otherwise what we shall do with this building?

Mr. Dwivedi: Correct.

Prabhupāda: So our Gandhi's program failed because he could not attract the villagers to these activities. Everyone wants some attraction. That we were discussing, rasa, catur-vidhā-rasa, dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90). So we have to educate them to be attracted by the mokṣa-rasa. Then they'll stay. Unless there is rasa... Just like if you put a little sugar, small black ants will come immediately. The rasa is there. Raso vai saḥ. If... If you cannot attract people to some rasa, they'll not stay.

Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 23, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So our Gandhi's program failed because he could not attract the villagers to these activities. Everyone wants some attraction. That we were discussing, rasa, catur-vidhā-rasa, dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90). So we have to educate them to be attracted by the mokṣa-rasa. Then they'll stay. Unless there is rasa... Just like if you put a little sugar, small black ants will come immediately. The rasa is there. Raso vai saḥ. If... If you cannot attract people to some rasa, they'll not stay. Just like these Americans, foreigners, they have tasted little rasa in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore they are sticking. That we have to create. That is bhakti-rasa. So our first beginning is that the villagers may come, we have our temple, and they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and give them nice prasādam. And then, gradually, they will be attracted to this rasa. So that we want. So if we people cooperate... We have got our program already. The present problem is that they are being attracted with this artha-rasa. There are four kinds of rasa, catur-rasa: dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa. So somebody is tasting dharmārtha, ritualistic ceremonies. Somebody is economic development in the cities, artha. Somebody is attracted, sense enjoyment, sex. And somebody, very pure, mokṣa-rasa. Catur-rasa. So in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness all the four rasas are there. Simply we have to present. So that is possible by the bhakti-rasa. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanam... (SB 7.5.23). So we have to begin. The villagers must come, sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, and give them prasādam. If you can bring them, so far money is concerned for giving prasādam, that we shall arrange. Then, gradually, let them be engaged in spinning all their necessities of life, in plowing, in protection of the cows. They get some... We have done it already in foreign countries—enough milk, enough vegetables, enough food grains. They're so happy. They're so happy. This nonsense civilization, attracting to earn money and construct anthill... These skyscraper buildings are as good as the anthill. It has no meaning. But they are constructing. So the change of attraction. Raso vai saḥ. All the rasas, they should be trained up to take it from Kṛṣṇa. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: (CC Madhya 22.42) "I have got the rasa from You. I don't want anything more." This is perfection. Otherwise, for these material rasas, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). That I was discussing last night. They have got sex rasa at home. Still, they're going prostitute-hunting. (break) "Mahatma Gandhi, you have got influence over the Muslims. Why don't you stop cow-killing?" And he said, "Oh, how can I stop it? It is their religion."

Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 23, 1977, Bombay:

Mr. Dwivedi: It is nobody's religion, what little I know of the few religions, that to advise that "You must take a particular type of flesh and not the other type."

Prabhupāda: No, flesh you can take if you are carnivorous, but not this cow's flesh. That is particularly instructed in Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Kṛṣṇa did not say that "You be non-meat-eater." That is not possible. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Every living entity is living by eating another living entity. That is the laws of nature. But there are different types, so in the human society, if there are persons who want to eat flesh, so they can eat that nonimportant, small animal. But don't touch cow. That is Gītā's instruction. Go-rakṣya, He has particularly said. If you are so mean that you have to eat some flesh, there are hogs, dogs, and... And you can eat. But don't touch cow. Gandhi posed himself as a great student of Bhagavad-gītā, but he did not understand a single line. That is the defect. Gandhi took it, Bhagavad-gītā, as a childish play. Dangerous... Therefore country is ruined. You must take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Then there is authority. You cannot change it. If you change it, where is the authority? Can you change the simple law, "Keep to the right; keep to the left"? No. It is authority. If the direction is "Keep to the right," you must keep to the right. You cannot say that "What is the wrong if I keep to the left?" Then there is no authority. So Gandhi, Tilak, and Aurobindo and so on, so on, they took Bhagavad-gītā as a childish play. Whatever they want, they interpret that. And Vivekananda supported, yato mata tato patha: "You can have your own opinion." These are all nonsense. Therefore country is ruined. You must take as it is. Then it will be... You cannot change the authority of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya... (BG 18.44)..

Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 23, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: All violating. You see? I had been recently in Gandhi's āśrama at Trinoba(?). I do not wish to say, but they do not understand Gītā.

Mr. Dwivedi: Because they mixed politics with religion and wanted an adjustment...

Prabhupāda: It is not religion. Why you take...? Religion is also, we shall do. As soon as I say religion, you say, "I have got my religion." It is science. "Two plus two equal to four" is equally understandable by Hindus, by Muslim, by Christian. "Two plus two equal to four," everyone knows. Everyone should accept. "Because I am Hindu, therefore two plus two equal to five"—that cannot be. So Bhagavad-gītā was misrepresented that it is meant for the Hindus. If it is meant for the Hindus, why they are coming? What is the use? They were Christians. They were Jews. Why they are coming? It is a science. So we have to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is—science. It is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). But they misunderstand religion.

Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 23, 1977, Bombay:

Mr. Dwivedi: We are sample of Kṛṣṇa. Correct.

Prabhupāda: But... So your duty is to cooperate. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). Living entities, Kṛṣṇa says, they are part and parcel. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. It's duty, primary duty, is to cooperate what I say. I say the finger, "Come here." Immediately... That is the duty. That is cooperation. And I say the finger, "Come here," and finger goes anywhere, that is not cooperation. Similarly, whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. That is cooperation. Then it will be successful. If you manufacture your own meaning, amendment, and your scholarship, nonsense, then you spoil. In politics, nonviolence? Hm? Just see. Do you think Gandhi became successful by nonviolence? Do you think? Violence. When Subhas Bose organized this I.N.A. it was successful. Otherwise he failed in South Africa; he failed in India.

Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 23, 1977, Bombay:

Mr. Dwivedi: ...for my paper for all India. I do not know whether it was Subhas Bapu's influence or I do not know my own karmas, but at least in Gandhi...

Prabhupāda: That it is a fact.

Mr. Dwivedi: I could not appreciate him.

Prabhupāda: No, it is a fact. When Subhas Bapu... He was always pleading, "Gandhiji, these people are not to go by your nonviolence, and we have to take to violence." Gandhi would say, "I will not fight. Sva-rājya." Then Subash went outside India. Somehow or other, he organized. And when the Britishers saw that "The military force, they are joining national movement. Now it is no hope..." Because the Gurkhas and the Sikhs and other military races, they were cooperating with the Britishers, therefore they were maintaining. They could not bring soldiers from their country. And when they saw, "The soldiers are joining Subhas," they left. "Now independence." This is a fact. Otherwise Gandhi he was patting, "Mahatmaji, you are such a great man."

Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 23, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: I was present in that meeting.

Mr. Dwivedi: So I was in the working committee with Shrinivas Iyengar from the South and this Ganesh Shankar Vidyapati from Kanpur. Subhas Bapu used to be very plain. When we used to put certain question to Jawaharlal, then he would say, "If you don't believe in Gandhi's ahiṁsā, you get out. Who will follow him, eh? Where shall I get the crowd to hear me?"

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa condemned it, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam: "You are trying to become nonviolent." And Gandhi became more than Kṛṣṇa, nonviolent. What is this nonsense? Kṛṣṇa chastised Arjuna, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam, anārya-juṣṭam: "These things are spoken by the anāryas, not by the Aryans."

Second Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 24, 1977, Bombay:

Mr. Dwivedi: But I... I'll have a phone call with him today, and I'll ask him where he may stay. Of course, I would like to meet him.

Prabhupāda: You can also inform him that we are going to organize the village organization according to Gandhi's program.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is our proposal.

Mr. Dwivedi: He will help me.

Prabhupāda: With spiritual idea.

Mr. Dwivedi: Mr. Jetthi, he will also help me with this program.

Prabhupāda: Gandhi's program plus spiritual. Gandhi's program...

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...plus spiritual idea. Gandhi had no spiritual program. Therefore it was a failure. But here that simple living plus spiritual program, that will affect.

Second Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 24, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: If you... If you think kuṭumbakam. Suppose some kuṭumba has come to your house. You ask him, "Go out"? This is our system. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptam. This is Indian culture. When you receive somebody at your home, even if he's your enemy-gṛhe śatrum api prāptam—you should treat with him in such a way that he'll forget that he's your enemy. Viśvastam akutobhayam. That was India's culture. Bhīma went to Jarāsandha to fight. Whole day it was fight. It was kṣatriya's fight. Unless one is dead, the fight will continue. So Bhīma and Jarāsandha were equally powerful, so no decision. But still, he was guest at Jarāsandha's house. At night they were eating together, talking together. This is India's culture. They forgot. Arjuna went to see in the battlefield to Duryodhana. And Duryodhana immediately said, "Come here, my brother. You have come. What do you want? How can I help you? You want your kingdom without fight? I can give you." He said, "No, no, that is not my business." This is kṣatriya. He... He thought that "He has come to beg." "No, no, that already... That we shall decide in the battlefield." This is kṣatriya. But when he's at my place, I offer, "All right, if you want without fight, you can take." This is... They... This is India's culture. Ei sab mahābhārata hai, "History of Greater India." (Hindi) Apkara Gandhiji (Hindi) fiction hai.

Mr. Dwivedi: Gandhi thought that the Mahābhārata is within.

Second Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 24, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa gave him within—bullet. Yes. "Your nonviolence is within. You take it within. Take this bullet." Such wrong theory. These are wrong theories. "You want to establish nonviolence, and the violence is within. Take it." So don't theorize. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti (BG 16.23). This is Gītā's word. If you do not follow the śāstra—you manufacture ideas—you'll never get success, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukham, no happiness, and what to speak of parāṁ gatim? (Hindi) Tasmāt śāstra-vidhānoktaṁ kāryākārya... What is that verse? Real guidance, śāstra, and Kṛṣṇa is speaking. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is very easy. But we have given up all these things. (Hindi) So you have to give up this. Otherwise there is no hope. (break) And to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is not at all difficult. Very simple thing. Otherwise how they have become? Ten years before, they did not know who is Kṛṣṇa. So how they have become Kṛṣṇa conscious? And our position is that even a person like Gandhi, he could not become Kṛṣṇa conscious in hundred years. Because the wrong way. And they have become within ten years fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now ask him that "Go back to your Christian." Will they go? They have been kidnapped. They have been forced. In so many ways they have been harassed. No. In America it was going on.

Second Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 24, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Now, how they have become Kṛṣṇa conscious? And our men? They are dragged, somebody, to this conscious, that conscious, that conscious. Take this steady instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Try to implement. Everyone will be happy, everyone, undoubtedly. Take this seriously. It is not that, because we are pushing Kṛṣṇa ... We are not pushing something new, manufactured. It is already there. It is already there. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So what do you think? Is it possible to push Kṛṣṇa consciousness on this line, strictly on Bhagavad-gītā? What do you think? It is not difficult, but we have made it difficult. Recently I had been to Vinoba Bhave's aśrama. And there is no Kṛṣṇa, and he is writing Bhagavad-gītā pravacana or something like that. Even in Gandhi's āśrama, Wardha(?), the Gandhi's lantern is being worshiped. And where is Kṛṣṇa? So the Bhagavad-gītā's instruction is mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and they are worshiping Gandhi's lantern. You had been with me?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but I've seen it.

Prabhupāda: You know, that so...

Second Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 24, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This is the definition of mahātmā, not that I create mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ (BG 9.13). (Hindi) This is mahātmā.

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti
sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ
(BG 7.19)

That is mahātmā. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). The Mahatma Gandhi... (Hindi) Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. (Hindi) If you read Bhagavad-gītā, you must read properly, act properly. Then you'll get the benefit. If you manufacture your ideas-useless waste of time. (Hindi) Whether they'll tolerate? Boliye.

Morning Talk -- April 25, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: I am also going there for that. Otherwise...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it's a real good challenge. I mean, I feel it's a nice challenge.

Prabhupāda: Now the... We can see practically how the system of civilization is bad, that this Indira Gandhi, rākṣasī, she became exalted in the topmost rank, and she thought... A person who is equally good or more than her, he was imprisoned. Then how the system is bad, that a rogue comes to the topmost post and a good man is put into the prison? Is not the system defective? Imperfect? Some way or other, you can become very important, and the actually important man you can cut down.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Envious system.

Prabhupāda: Animal.

Morning Talk -- April 25, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, hanged. They are not guru. They are not missionaries. They do not know. They have no knowledge. And missionaries? You see? The so-called politicians, philosopher, religionists, rascals, distorting the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā. And yato mata tato patha. And "I like. Whatever I like, I can speak, and that is supported." What is this? Chaotic condition. There is no standard. We are giving the standard, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. And Gandhi said, "Oh, how can I stop cow-killing? It is their religion." Just see. Such a rascal. "My religion is to kill others, and it should be supported by the government." Such a foolish man, they are on the government power. Parīkṣit Mahārāja, did he consider that? "So you are killing cow? You must be killed." That's all. Life for life. "It is my religion, sir." "Then get out here! Get out of my kingdom! Perform your religion outside." This is king. This is government. He said like that, Kali. You know?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: "Yes, all right, I don't interfere with your business, but not... You leave my kingdom. Get out."

Conversation: Animals' Expertise -- April 28, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Expecting. Hope against hope. This is struggle. That they do not see. They do... We have got this valuable life. What we are doing? We are doing the same thing as the small ants do. So what is the difference between that life and this life? Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes that "This is not your business. Your business is to surrender unto Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). That will be solved automatically. But they don't. They take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and apply it for solving these problems. Gandhi and Bhagavad-gītā—what is that? Political struggle. Such a rascal. And he's leader? He does not know what is the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā. Has Kṛṣṇa come down to speak how to defend, how to eat, how to sleep? Is there any statement there? Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Solve this problem. This is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. And who, nonsense, understands this? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This teaching... This is a teaching of Bhagavad-gītā. And they are taking Bhagavad-gītā for solving these problems. That's all. Ants' struggle. Violence, nonviolence and... So such big, big rascals are guiding us. What benefit they have given? And they are praised. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ... (SB 2.3.19). He's an animal, and he's praised by some small animals. That's all. This is their position. They are not actual leader. They are animals, but because we are small animals, we are praising. So it is very difficult to understand our philosophy, but still, we have to preach. That is our mission.

Morning Conversation -- April 30, 1977, Bombay:
Prabhupāda: So they are not careful about these things, so what do they understand about Bhagavad-gītā? The real problem they do not touch. And the body will change, and he'll live in India or in America, say, for fifty years. He's busy. That is cats, just like these cats and dogs at night. Nobody has given him charge, but he is thinking "I am in charge of the road. Why this put-put motorcar, you have come here? Go on. Go on. Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" But who has given him charge? But he's starving, and people are throwing stone upon him, but he's thinking "I am in charge of this business. Why at night this car has come?" Dog mentality. Is it not exactly like the dog? He's disturbing all others—"Gow, gow! Gow, gow, gow!"—but he's thinking that "I am in charge." Is it not dog dancing, these politicians, politics? Who cares for you? Gandhi or there, he has gone. Does it mean the world activities stop? Churchill was there. He has gone. Hitler was there. They are coming and going like so many insects. Napoleon was there. Who cares for them? We are licking up their so-called activities: "Oh, Napoleon was so great. Gandhi was so great." And what he has done? The dog dancing. Who can understand that unless one is Kṛṣṇa conscious? What he has done actually? Has he stopped death? No. Population, birth, sterilization... Will they be able to stop it? Simply manufacturing concoction and jumping like a... That's all. And if you say the real thing, upadeṣo hi mūrkhāṇāṁ prakopāya na śāntaye, they'll become angry.
Morning Conversation -- April 30, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: They created untouchables, repressed, sidual,(?) so many partition.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who created them?

Prabhupāda: Britishers. Then, when Gandhi tried to accommodate them, then rupture between Hindu-Muslim, Muslim League, riot. To keep their kingdom they were doing... So many innocent persons were massacred. Anyāyena artha-sañcayan. The Britishers committed so many sinful activities. They will suffer.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they're suffering for it.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is doing.

Room Conversation -- May 2, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: To make another enemy. Just see. Even Shriman Narayan and other, I repeatedly indirectly said that Gandhi made a great mistake. So who hears me?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. If he was to hear that, it means his whole..., he himself has to admit that half of his life he's spoiled, 'cause he's been following Gandhi, praising Gandhi his whole lifetime. They are afraid to admit...

Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They remain blind, yes. They like to remain blind. Their leaders are blind, and the followers want to remain blind. This is māyā. Unless there is training... This is instruction, ādau gurvāśrayam. If he doesn't understand the aim of life... It is meant for the most fortunate. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhram..., kona bhāgyavān jīva. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). But still, as far as possible, we shall take opportunity to try to convince him.

Room Conversation -- May 2, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...the mess. He has paid only one hundred rupees from his pocket, and he's everything, and he has squandered so much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who?

Prabhupāda: The Sanjay Gandhi.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That, I haven't read that yet. Is he going to be put in prison for...?

Prabhupāda: I think so.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about her?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about his mother?

Prabhupāda: Well, mother, personally what did she do, I do not know.

Room Conversation -- May 8, 1977, Hrishikesh:

Trivikrama: Yes. It seems they can't get away from Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Trivikrama: They can't get away from Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they cannot. They can cheat, but with Gītā. They are like Gandhi. He cheated with a Gītā, in the name of Gītā. Even they cannot cheat with Gītā. Bhaja... What is that, Gītā-pravacana?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, Gītā...

Prabhupāda: That is another cheating.

Evening Darsana -- May 9, 1977, Hrishikesh:

Prabhupāda: And big, big leaders, they are utilizing Bhagavad-gītā for so-called nationalism. Why? There is not a single word as "nationalism." As Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya (BG 14.4). Where is nationalism? There is no question of nationalism. So the difficulty is they do not understand even a line of Bhagavad-gītā, and still, the so-called scholars, philosophers, politicians, they are advertising that "I am student." They do not understand even a line of... This is my challenge. What do you think? They do not understand. Even Gandhi did not understand, not a single line.

Indian man (1): Gandhi did believe in trusteeship theory.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (1): Gandhiji believed in trusteeship theory of Īśopaniṣad.

Prabhupāda: Trusteeship... Trustee... Who will be trustee? Who is trustworthy? All thieves and rogues? Who is trustworthy? Trustee is Kṛṣṇa.

Evening Darsana -- May 9, 1977, Hrishikesh:

Indian man (2): Very passing reference he made once.

Prabhupāda: Why? That means he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (3): Who made this reference? Who made this passing reference, where Kṛṣṇa is...?

Indian man (2): Gandhi made...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gandhiji.

Prabhupāda: I don't speak especially of Gandhi, but there are so many. Everyone takes Bhagavad-gītā and misinterprets in his way. Why? Boliye. Why they should misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā? What right they have got?

Conversation with M.P., Shri Sita Ram Singh -- May 19, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Where the Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Why don't you come? You'll not come. You'll stick to your own principle. Here is the way out. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti. "No." You'll make your own party, that's all, and suffer. What can be done? You'll never take good advice from Kṛṣṇa. You'll take advice from Indira Gandhi. That's it.

Sita Ram Singh: (Hindi) And discontentment.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are trying to adjust things by the external nature. (Hindi) Mūrkhāyopadeṣo hi prakopāya na... (Hindi) Come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and be happy.

Conversation Pieces -- May 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: As soon as this Indira Gandhi and her son disturbed Vṛndāvana people, within a week... Just see. This is practical. The poor, these bābājīs, they were going to beg, and by force, once, twice, injection. So immediately, after one week...

Rāmeśvara: For sterilization?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is practically... And I was surprised how such a abominable falldown came to Indira Gandhi. It is simply Kṛṣṇa's hand. No politician fallen in such a way in the history. Finished business. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān yoniṣu (BG 16.19). It is simply Kṛṣṇa's hand. They are "This party, that party, that..." But to curb down Indira's power, it was simply by Kṛṣṇa directly. Hm. Go on reading. (break) "Don't worry. I am here." This is Kṛṣṇa. A boy, ten years boy, Kṛṣṇa, He was, "Come on," challenging. This is Kṛṣṇa.

Talk with Svarupa Damodara -- June 20, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: All these big, big leaders, they want to become āśraya. Gandhi wanted to be āśraya. And he was kicked out: "Get out! You are viśaya. You are trying to be āśraya." Immediately kicked out. That is false theory, Māyāvāda. Bhakativinoda āśraya... What is that song?

Pradyumna: Nāmāśraya kori' jatane tumi thākaha āpana kāje.

Prabhupāda: There is another... Yaśomatī...

Satadhanya: Yaśomatī-nandana, in that last line, Bhaktivinoda āśraya.

Prabhupāda: Āśraya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, the spiritual master is the shelter.

Prabhupāda: No, spiritual master is under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Conversation -- June 23, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: ...material body. So as soon as there is material attraction, the village organization will not stand because the other material attraction is industry. So because he's materially attracted, he'll say that "If I do industry, I get hundred rupees. Why shall I plow for five rupees?" That simply they do not know. Gandhi's plan failed there. If materially they are after material enjoyment, so if he gets hundred rupees, he thinks that "I will enjoy more. Why shall I be sticking to the service?" Then the village program will fail. They will go for the hundred rupees. That civilization they do not know. After all, they are all rascals. They won't take lesson from us or from the Vedic culture. Therefore it is failure.

Morning Conversation -- June 23, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Everything will be shortage. That is nature's arrangement. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). They cannot make any plan successful without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long they'll insist upon this point, that "Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness we shall do everything successfully..." That is durāśā. As long as they persist on this, they'll remain rascals. Every plan will be failure. Durāśā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī. Nature, material nature, is against them. No plan will be allowed to be... Just trace out the history. Every plan has been unsuccessful, either Eastern, Western. Napoleon made plan, Hitler made plan, Gandhi made plan. So many rascals, they made plan. Everyone's plan, impersonalist, they are unsuccessful at the end. Gandhi was killed, Napoleon was dishonored, Mussolini was killed, Hitler nowhere... Take all these big, big...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Still they have not learned their lesson.

Conversation: 'How to Secure Brahmacaris' -- June 24, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: This idea, that "My son should be B.A., M.A., Ph.D.," it is wrong idea. Why? What is there, Ph.D.'s? First of all one must earn. Self-preservation is the first law of... But not... The Marwaris used to do that in Calcutta. Many pakorā. No business—he was frying pakorā and selling. Why unemployment? This is disastrous, unemployment. As soon as there is unemployment, there are so many devils. They'll plan. And the first plan will come-wine and woman. So we want to save the society from this downfall. At least keep one ideal. And that is our mission. Otherwise there was no nece... But at the present moment they cannot take so much trouble. We are trying to give them as much as possible comfortable life, but become an ideal vidvān and bhaktimān. That is required. Otherwise it is animal society. Prime Minister's son is a debauch, rogue, thief. They are not ashamed even. And people are adoring him: "O Sanjay, you are Indira Gandhi's son. I take your blessing." Doing practically. He was very much anxious to see Sanjay Gandhi. So what did I say?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You said not to waste time with these...

Conversation: 'How to Secure Brahmacaris' -- June 24, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: "Don't waste time by seeing these rascals," I told him. Still thinking of so many poli... I said, "No, don't see. There is no use." If a man is not of character, what... And especially if he's not a devotee... Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. There cannot be any good qualities. Immediately he is rejected. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). As soon as one is not devotee, we tell him, narādhama. Bas. That's all, finished. Why should I waste my time with...? But for some business we have to do, associate. That is another thing. So the student, the ideal... Then think of managerial arrangements. "Don't keep your head on the northern side." And he searched out, "There is a whole head. Oh!" On the northern or western side. So anything, if you have to inquire, you can put. (break)...Kali-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). They like this disturbed condition. "Politics, diplomacy, crookercy, I like." This is the position. One is a great cheater, crooked, diplomat—"Oh, he's very nice." You have seen it. This Sanjay Gandhi ruined the whole Congress organization, and he was being worshiped. Just see practically. It is due to him that the old, oldest political party, Congress, is ruined. And he was being worshiped. This is society's position. And Morarji Desai, he's now prime minister, he was put into jail. This is going on. This is the example to learn. For nineteen months he was put into jail. How much it is troublesome. If I am asked that "For so many months you cannot go out of this room," I'll become mad.

Conversation: 'How to Secure Brahmacaris' -- June 24, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That is required. But it will be a failure unless they are taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That... Gandhi's failure was there. He did not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because the material civilization means pravṛtti-mārga, and spiritual civilization nivṛtti-mārga. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalām. So pravṛtti... Suppose he is in the village. He has to work with plow. And in the city, Goodyear Tire Company offering him twenty rupees per day. So he'll see that "What is the use of working with this plow? Let me go to Goodyear Tire." Then here the business will be finished. That is the position of India. So much land is lying vacant because there is no worker, and all the rascals have gone to New Delhi or big cities. And overpopulation? "Give them sterilization." Here there is no men to work and they're sterilization... How the leaders... And who is leader? Another debauch number one, Gandhi, Mrs.... And she has produced a Sanjay Gandhi. Very precarious si... So there will be no scarcity of simple living and eating. We shall give nice food, milk, and place. So bring student and teach them. Then gradually increase. They will preach throughout the whole world. The defect of the society, modern—the rascals are worshiped. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given all in his moral instructions. He said, mūrkhā yatra na pūjyante: "Where rascals are not worshiped..." But at the present moment rascals are worshiped. And he says. He was experienced politician. He said, mūrkhā yatra na pūjyante dhānyaṁ yatra susañcitam. "In the society where rascals are not worshiped and food grains are properly stocked..." Mūrkhā yatra na pūjyante dhānyaṁ yatra susañcitam... Another... Dampatyo kalaho nāsti: "And where there is no quarrel between husband and wife," tatra śrīḥ svayam āgatāḥ, "all fortune will come there automatically." Svayam āgatāḥ. You haven't got to pray, "Mother Lakṣmī, please come to my house." She'll come. Three things wanted. You should not give unnecessarily honor to rascals, and you should keep your food grains very nicely, and don't quarrel, husband and wife. Then you become fortunate. Just see. Check how these instructions are there.

Room Conversation with Mr. Myer -- July 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: They do not marry for being... Or they kill children. They are doing that. Where is the question of "four," "two"? These are all nonsense program. They do not know how to do things. We welcome. Four, nei. Four hundred. Come on. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "I am a brahmacārī-sannyāsī, but if I can bring Kṛṣṇa conscious child, I can beget hundred children. I have no objection." And that is... There is no question of four or two. Four hundred—if you can make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the criterion. That is required. But that, they do not know. They'll not be able to maintain properly even one children, one child. That's not possible. But that is the difficulty in In... They do not know the laws of nature, the laws of God, how things are going on, although they are being explained. They'll... There are so many things. They are jumping like monkey. That's all. They... They take photograph for "Gītā student," and they do not understand one line, even one line. In the beginning, the Bhagavad-gītā is tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) "This body will change." Do they take it seriously? So what is the use of their reading Bhagavad-gītā? Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara, na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). Do they take seriously, that "I am eternal. I do not die after the annihilation of the body. And the body will change. What I am going to do?" So this is going on, and still, they are... Gandhi is... "He is great student of Bhagavad-gītā." He is... "Tilak is a great student." "Dr. Radhakrishnan..." All rascals. All rascals. They do not understand even one line. If they study only one line, they'll be able to bring a great transforming to the... Do you think they do understand this line?

Room Conversation With Son (Vrindavan De) -- July 5, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: We don't want to touch them even. I never did so.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He got a review already on his book. This is from the... It's called Books West.

Prabhupāda: Keep your position respectable. Don't create many enemies. It is very simple. Why should I try to understand the rascal Gandhi philosophy and Ramakrishna? I take it from the beginning, they're useless. Why shall I waste my time? I know it is useless. They'll require superficial touch, no important. I therefore say in every..., "I do not know who is this."

Room Conversation With Son (Vrindavan De) -- July 5, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So this kind of, that "I do not know who is Vivekananda." "Oh! You do not know?" Then you can know what he is. Then he can say, "This is his philosophy." Then you criticize, "This is nonsense!" Let him present Vivekananda's philosophy and smash it. Let the other party present Gandhi's philosophy and you crush it by kicking. That is the opportunity. Otherwise it will be the same philosophy, to kill that... What is that animal?

Devotees: Skunk.

Prabhupāda: Skunk, and the hand becomes badly flavored. Hm? (break) Therefore three books, Bhagavad-gītā... All my other small books, they are also on the basis. That Topmost Yoga, it is based on Bhagavad-gītā in a different name. Easy Journey to Other Planets is based on Bhagavad-gītā in a different name. Why shall I waste? I don't want to waste time. In this condition of life I try to write book because I do not try to waste my time. All right, I am not having sleep. Let me try at night. If I can write one, two lines, that's all right. I don't want to read any other book or criticize or play. Waste of time.

Room Conversation With Son (Vrindavan De) -- July 5, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). All cheating. So if I know... Just like Vivekananda is cheating. Gandhi is cheating. He is cheating. Why shall I waste my time? Actually they are cheating. What do they know about religion? Therefore in the beginning, "I do not know this man."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It really takes the air out of their sails. It really diminishes their position to say that, more than anything else, when you say, "I don't know who they are. Who is that you're talking about? Never heard his name."

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is sufficient.

Room Conversation With Son (Vrindavan De) -- July 5, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Patitānāṁ pāvanebhyaḥ. Pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo, tāra sākṣī jagāi-mādhāi, brajendra-nandana jei, śaci-suta hoilo sei. Kṛṣṇa is coming. He has come as Caitanya Mahāprabhu to deliver these pāpīs and tāpīs. Whole process is scientific. It is not (laughs) the Ramakrishna, Vivekananda. It is not that. What do they know? Or Gandhi. They are also trying for the betterment, but they do not accept the standard process. Everyone is trying. That is struggle for existence. So who is fittest? The fittest is the devotee. He'll survive. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). I have now explained how Kṛṣṇa became subordinate to devotee. (turns on dictaphone, plays back from tape:) "Yamarāja, controller of all living entities, is afraid of the order of Kṛṣṇa. Still, Kṛṣṇa is afraid of mother's stick. This contradictory thing cannot be understood by one who is not devotee. Devotee can understand how much powerful is unalloyed devotional service to Kṛṣṇa, so much so He can be controlled by such devotee. Bhṛtya-vaśyata. That means under the control of the servant, but He is under the control of pure love by the servant. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, we see, Kṛṣṇa became the chariot driver of Arjuna. Arjuna is ordering Him, senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta (BG 1.21). Here Kṛṣṇa has agreed... (break) '...my chariot...' (break) '...to execute my order. Place my chariot between the two party soldiers.' Kṛṣṇa immediately executed his order. One may argue in this connection that Kṛṣṇa is also not independent. This is ajñāna, ignorance. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. When He becomes subordinate to the devotees He is ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Humor of transcendental qualities increases transcendental pleasure. One who worships Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore sometimes desires to be controlled by somebody controller. Nobody else... (break) ...pure devotee." (end of tape playback section) Everyone worships Him as the Supreme, but sometimes He desires, "Somebody will control over."

Room Conversation about Mayapura Attack Talk with Vrindavan De -- July 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Why shall I waste my time? I never read all these.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes devotees say, in order to defeat... This is their philosophy.

Prabhupāda: They are defeated, already dead. Few days they can quack. That's all. Who asks for Marx now? Gandhi, Marx, Tolstoy, who cares for them? Vivekananda? Now Kṛṣṇa's Bhagavad-gītā is taken.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in the law court it's quoted.

Prabhupāda: So what is the Marx philosophy?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that the people are suffering at the hands of the capitalists. One or two people...

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. That we admit, but not to adjust in that way.

Room Conversation -- July 17, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Just see practically. Indira Gandhi, she came to a point, and then falls again. Is it not? The same golo dhana(?). She was all-in-all powerful, and once again finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Finished.

Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi, finished. President Nixon, finished. They do not see, these big, big stalwart men of the world. They can be finished in one second. Prahlāda Mahārāja said that "I have seen my father, such a powerful man, finished. What benediction I shall ask, this material world? Don't allure me. Better engage me as the servant of Your servant." Anything, any opulence. Now nobody utters the name of Indira Gandhi. Every... Every day the people or newspaper filled up with Indira Gandhi. That the Russian minister, Krushchev? Nobody knows where he is.

Room Conversation -- August 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Gandhi tried twenty years to get little equal rights. The General Smuts refused. He was failure in South Africa. And then he decided that "I shall drive these Europeans, Englishmen, from India." He came. That also he could not do. Here also, for thirty years he struggled. He was failure, nonviolent. It is Subhash Bose's INA which drove away these Englishmen. You know that? That Indian Army, what is that, INA, Indian National Army? When he organized this National Army, then the Englishmen came to sense that "Now we cannot rule over." This rascal was going on, nonviolence... (laughter) While... "We shall pat them: 'Oh, yes, you are so powerful. Oh, why you are trying to drive away?' " And he'll be... "Oh..." The Baitland(?) Colony in a loincloth, and engaged in the sun chair.(?) He had no practical knowledge. He started the movement from 1917, and actually it was... Independence was given, 1947. Thirty years he failed. Twenty years he failed there. He spoils fifty years for nothing, and distorting Bhagavad-gītā, that in Bhagavad-gītā there is nonviolence. Such a rascal. Bhagavad-gītā begins with, with this word, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre yuyutsavaḥ: (BG 1.1) "Two parties desiring to fight." That is the beginning. Yudhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). And Kṛṣṇa's whole life is yuddha, fighting. Before His birth, plan was being made how to kill Him. This is yuddha. Kaṁsa was planning. And after His birth He had to go away, just to make a show, from His father's house to another house incognito to avoid yuddha. And when yuddha began, three months old, He killed Pūtanā.

Room Conversation -- August 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Violence from the beginning.

Prabhupāda: Then Tṛṇāvarta, big, big yuddha. Then Aghāsura, Bakāsura, Śakaṭāsura, this asura, this asura, that asura, in childhood, in Vṛndāvana, so many. Then, when He went to Mathurā, big, big elephant, big, big wrestler. Then Kaṁsa. Then, after Kaṁsa, then Jarāsandha, Pauṇḍraka, then kidnapping His wives. Fighting, only fighting. And these rascals say, "I do not like this Kṛṣṇa." You have heard that? He is creating his own Kṛṣṇa, this Gandhi.

Yaśomatīnandana: They also say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the Kṛṣṇa of Mahābhārata is different from Kṛṣṇa of Bhāgavata.

Prabhupāda: Just see. How they are distorting history and everything. And in Mahābhārata... He's advertising himself as staunch student of Bhagavad-gītā, and he is distorting the meaning in so many ways. That is his business. And he's mahātmā. Mahātmā means mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya... (BG 9.13). Mahātmā is a great devotee who has no other business than to obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa. Bhajanti. Bhajana-sevā. And he's is discarding, distorting, and he's mahātmā. Just see. If you study, scrutinizing, these men have done greatest disservice to the country, to the people in general. And they have received no result. And I have worked ten years only with Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.

Room Conversation -- October 4, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Anywhere, not only Ceylon.

Haṁsadūta: They still have wild elephants in the jungles. Here is Bhagatji, Prabhupāda. Bhagatji has come.

Prabhupāda: In which paper the arrest of Indira Gandhi?

Bhagatji: Indira Gandhi was arrested last night at eight o'clock.

Haṁsadūta: Which paper reported?

Bhagatji: In the radio it came at once, throughout whole India. And she was released in morning on bail.

Prabhupāda: Who gave her the bail?

Haṁsadūta: Who gave the bail?

Bhagatji: So many persons.

Page Title:Gandhi (Conversations 1977)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, Serene
Created:08 of Aug, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=126, Let=0
No. of Quotes:126