Gandhi (Conversations 1976)

Expressions researched:
"Gandhi" |"Gandhi's" |"Gandhiji" |"Gandhiji's" |"Gandhis"

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- January 3, 1976, Nellore:

Prabhupāda: So where is your independence? What is the answer? At any moment you have to die. Even Munshibhai Raman or Mussolini or big, big, so..., Napoleon.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Franco. There was that Franco.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. He was given horse urine to drink, Napoleon. Such a great hero, but he had to drink horse urine. This Englishman after Battle of, what is that? Waterloo. When he was arrested, when he was asking water, he was given horse urine. Because everyone was very, very angry. Napoleon became just like Hiranyakasipu. They were threatening their children: "Oh, he, Bona, is coming. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep." He became so much.... He was known as Bona. You do not know all these things?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whole Europe became threatened, Napoleon. And there must be some reaction. And when he was under custody he was treated like an.... So where is independence? He had to drink horse urine as reaction of his atrocities. Hitler committed suicide and finished himself. Mussolini was forced to be killed. Gandhi was killed. And they are fighting for independence. You know this Sydney? Sydney? You know why the city is known as Sydney?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot, he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said, "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hm? Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible?

Room Conversation -- January 3, 1976, Nellore:

Prabhupāda: Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have...? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence. (break) ...clearly says, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate: (BG 3.27) "These rascals, out of false ego, and vidmūḍha, foolishly declaring that 'I am the doer of everything. I can do everything independently.' " Kartāham iti manyate. Manyate means "falsely think." Actually, he is nothing but a small particle. This egotism is the root cause of suffering. Discuss all these things amongst yourselves and preach and inform these rascals, so-called civilized scientists and philosopher. That is preaching. We have to present the truth in such a way that they will be convinced, "Yes." Within fifteen minutes the plane in Arabia, fifty-three men fell. Within fifteen.... It takes fifteen minutes to die. That's all. Where is your independence? You have invented so many nice machine, but when there is order from superior, "You nonsense, your machine.... You die immediately," what you can do? So why don't you accept there is superior? Hm? Why do they not accept? What is the reasoning? You cannot say?

Harikeśa: Vimūḍhātmā. Prabhupāda: Yes. That accept. If he accepts that he's vimūḍha, then it is an advance. Just like a dog is barking, "Yow, yow, yow, yow!" You just run towards him with a stick, he'll immediately go away and stop. Because he is dog, he is thinking, "I am independent. I can bark like this." And as soon as.... Simply one stick-finish his independence. You'll find psychologically, however a big dog he may be, if you just run towards him with a stick, he'll go.... (laughs) He knows that "When this man will strike me with the stick, I cannot do anything." He knows it very well. Sometimes falsely if you touch the ground, he will go away. Everyone is thinking independently. He is forming a party, "revolution," "ism," and so many things. All of them are foolish rascals. They do not see the history. Stronger men than ourselves, Napoleon, Hitler, this man, that man, Gandhi—everyone is finished. So where is.... What is the value of my planning again? (break) There are many gods?

Morning Walk -- January 19, 1976, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Yes. They will take statistics for ten years and make an average. That is the way. (Bengali) (break) ...scheme requires very huge land. So if we purchase in that way they will go on charging more and more.

Indian man: Indira Gandhi.... They have now made a new one formula called "Twenty-point formula." And in that, one part is that any society, saṁsthā (indistinct), or individual, he can keep a land, twelve acres.

Prabhupāda: Society also?

Indian man: Anyone. But gives two crops, and which give up one crop, they can keep thirty acres. And more than that, the government will take every, and they will distribute to all the farmers.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Indian man: They are doing in Haryana and Punjab. They have taken all the land. And there are many big, big gurguras. They have a land hundred acres, fifty acres, something like that. So they have given them.

Prabhupāda: So without government award it will be risky. They can take away.

Indian man: Ten bīghās she extracts.

Morning Walk -- January 19, 1976, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: No, no. Some of them are cultivating. Others are going to the city to be...

Indian man: So now everybody will go. When the rich people will take their land they have to go. They will say, "How we can live with the small land," so they will move.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, why they should not try to be rich? If the rich man exploits them, that "You work in our land and take some salary," why they will work for that? They will go to the factory, will get more salary. This way Indira Gandhi cannot solve the poverty problem. They must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like these soldiers, they for twenty years, simply eating and sleeping, and they are not engaged in cultivating-useless waste of time—and government has to maintain in big cantonment, big, big house, big, nice food, nice.... This is going on. Why the soldiers are maintained? It is waste of energy. They should have been engaged in tilling. Formerly the kings would give them free land. "You make your fortune—but on condition: when there is fight, you have to join." That was very easy. He possessed so much land, and he worked hard, and he got riches. Unless.... "Proprietorship turns sand into gold." Unless there is proprietorship, it cannot be. So therefore kṣatriyas, they were given land: "You take land as much as you like and produce but on condition that when there is war you have to join."

Morning Walks -- January 22-23, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: What you have heard from the authorities, if you speak, you repeat that, that is real speaking. Then pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt: then you'll be guru for the whole world, if you don't manufacture. So what is the difference between our Kṛṣṇa conscious and others? They manufacture ideas. Just like Ramakrishna Mission, manufacture: daridra-nārāyaṇa sevā. Where is...? Nārāyaṇa is there, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa. Where is this word, daridra-nārāyaṇa? He manufactured. (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We never heard of him in America. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Jayapatākā: They are saying that there, there are so many roads named after him. They are saying. Prabhupāda: How propaganda, lies. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We never even heard of him. Prabhupāda: I have seen one road, street, "Gandhi Street," Mexico, and there is no other. Mexico, when there was trouble with the Americans, they adopted Gandhi's noncooperation movement. Therefore they regarded Gandhi. There is Gandhi's statue and Gandhi's name, one. Who had been Mexico, any of you? That I have seen. And I never seen Vivekananda Road, never. Or India, oh, so many, this, that. No Caitanya Mahāprabhu Road. Vivekananda Road. Propaganda. The other day I saw some stamp, postage, "Vivekananda." You have seen it? But never they will publish Kṛṣṇa or Caitanya Mahāprabhu. "Kṛṣṇa is fictitious." What is called? Mythology. "Kṛṣṇa is mythology." (Bengali) The government saw, especially the police department, and they became so popular. Within two, three years, thousands and thousands of men, not only Indian. Kichu āchen. All Europeans, American, Englishmen, they are following Rathayātrā. Jaya jagannātha, jaya hare kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walks -- January 22-23, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: This is the fact. Therefore Bhāgavata says, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. They are very much proud: "I have got ninety-nine percent votes and I have become President." But what you are? You are another big pig only. Who has voted you? The voters are pigs and asses and camel and dogs. So if these animal vote for somebody, then what he is? Is there... Are... Their votes are calculable at all? Votes by the dogs, pigs, camels, and... śva-viḍ-varāha. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara, and asses. So what is the value of these votes? And that is going on, democracy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can they vote for human beings?

Prabhupāda: There is no human being. A big... I gave that a big animal, lion, is fearful to the small animal. But because he is lion, very strong, does it mean that he's a human being? That is going on. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's nothing but animal. So if other small animals praise him, "Oh, you are..." This Gandhi or Indira Gandhi or, and the Hitler and... What is the value? He's a big animal, that's all.

Morning Walk -- February 9, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Oh, still she is attractive? (laughs) A girl of sixty-eight? That's nice. Very good husband. And what is your father's age?

Bhavānanda: Sixty-eight.

Prabhupāda: And mother?

Bhavānanda: Sixty-eight.

Prabhupāda: Same age.

Bhavānanda: Same.

Jayapatākā: American system.

Prabhupāda: No, here also, some cases. Gandhi's wife was one year older than Gandhi, yes. Kaustubha Gandhi, she was seventeen years old, and Gandhi was sixteen years old, and they were married. There are many cases.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was arranged by their parents, or they did it themselves?

Prabhupāda: Yes, by their parents. Except in Bengal, in other provinces they do not take much care of the age. Generally the bridegroom is older. Boy is older than the girl. (break) ...was married, he was eleven years old.

Morning Walk -- February 19, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So Cāṇakya is authority. So I am quoting Cāṇakya. What is my fault?

Acyutānanda: No, they cannot... They cannot...

Prabhupāda: Cāṇakya is authority. Otherwise, why you have named "Cāṇakya Purī"? He's as good as Gandhi and other big, big men. So it is said, viśvāso naiva kartavyaṁ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu ca.(?)I am innocent. I am quoting authority.

Morning Walk -- February 20, 1976, Mayapura:

Acyutānanda: That Bhīṣma was waiting, lying on the battlefield for about thirty or forty days. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...was to die when he liked. That was his special privilege.

Acyutānanda: What?

Prabhupāda: He would die when he liked. That was the benediction upon him. And Gandhi will say dharma-kṣetra means this body.

Indian man: Balarāma and Subhadrā month, is that on the same, the next month, He came?

Prabhupāda: He came one sūrya-grahaṇa occasion. (break) ...in America. That is better than calling a government. What is the government? I don't care for them, these politicians. In America I never attempted to see the politicians, secretary and... Never attempted. I was sitting down under the tree and playing my dundubhi.

Morning Walk -- February 27, 1976, Mayapura:

Jayapatākā: All over India. Like Madana already got three devotees when I was there in one week. By now he may also have more. Bengalis like kīrtana very much. (break) ...devotees are Bengalis.

Prabhupāda: ...ago Bengali culture was very much adored all over India. Even one big politician, Gandhi's guru, Goke, Gokule, he remarked, "What Bengal thinks today, other provinces will think tomorrow." He said like that. And actually all big, big movements started from Bengal. The national movement also was started from Bengal. Whatever we may criticize Vivekananda, when... He's a Bengali. He went first for preaching Indian religion. Rabindranath Tagore, he's a Bengali. All big, big...

Jayapatākā: Aurobindo.

Prabhupāda: Aurobindo is a Bengali.

Morning Walk -- February 27, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Bengali culture was very much adored. Surendranath Bannerjee started the political movement, and he was so well known. Even in Parliament, the Englishmen, English M.P.'s, he... They were speaking of Surendranath. They used to say "Surrendered not." "Here is a person who is not 'Surrender not.' He'll never surrender. 'Surrender not.' " Actually, the British Empire was startled by the agitation of Surendranath Bannerjee. The Congress was started by Surendranath Bannerjee, this one Congress. Two Bengali and one Englishman started this Congress sometimes in 1887, 1867, like that. So in our childhood we used to see that Surendranath Bannerjee was being elected president of Congress almost every year. And Gandhi came into prominence when Surendranath Bannerjee surrendered. Formerly he was not surrendering. But the government gave him the first ministership, that "You become minister." So he became a government man. Then Gandhi came in prominence. Surendranath Bannerjee was the first minister in India. (break) ...in our childhood, if he would speak, thousands, thousands men will gather in Calcutta. (break) ...Surendranath Bannerjee Road.

Jayapatākā: Yes, very prominent road.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where my nephews have shop, Surendranath Bannerjee Road.

Jayapatākā: They did not knight him... (break)

Prabhupāda: His father was also very big man, Dr. Durgacaran Bannerjee. My sister hus..., Durgacaran Bannerjee, that is Surendranath Bannerjee father. He was a medical man.

Morning Walk -- March 9, 1976, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Purest in the world.

Jayapatāka: Officially, he said, the government is very eager to always keep an eye on your activities, but so far, you have not had any bad record. Therefore the government is favorable.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, how Indira Gandhi could see me? Even in the midst of crisis she gave me time. She has got very impression. She said that "I have all faith in you, but because I am afraid of the these Americans..."

Jayapatāka: We understand how important it is to keep all our dealings in the open.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes, very, very careful.

Jayapatāka: Watching the dangers.

Prabhupāda: We have got good reputation all over the world. The German rascals, they wanted to minimize our value, but he failed, that police officer.

Morning Walk -- March 13, 1976, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Yes, regular... Every criminal has got organization to bribe the police. And the police does not take directly, and some in-between man, agent, he collects from the criminal and gives to the police. In India this is going on. I know that. A via-media man, he makes fortune. Yes. Whatever is collected, ten percent he takes, and balance is given to the police. There is a confectioner in Delhi. He is selling jalebi. You know jalebi?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He has got ten lakhs of rupees because he collects the bribe from others and pay to the police. Everyone knows. There was one Mullik, now, on that Mahātmā Gandhi Road. His business was that. He was collecting. That quarter, our quarter, was full of pocket, pickpockets, guṇḍās. Pickpockets, gundas, in our childhood they were our neighborhood. (laughs) I remember when I was child I was coming, and the pickpocket was pickpocketing, and he was... He was doing like that: "Don't speak. Don't talk." I have seen all this. And whenever there was any riot, so we were accustomed to see everything. When there was Hindu-Muslim riot, one boyfriend told me, "Oh, don't go to your house. It is... A great riot is..." I thought, "Riot is going on daily." It was the same thing. (break) ...quarter. Induriya prakāra(?)

Morning Walk -- March 13, 1976, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Send this copy to Indira Gandhi.

Devotee (2): Indira Gandhi.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and request him to stop to send, give passport to all these nonsense. Do this. Yes.

Satsvarūpa: "For this reason I am very excited to see the publication of Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, by Śrī A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Śrīla Prabhupāda, from his very birth, was trained in the strict practice of bhakti-yoga, and he appears in a succession of gurus that traces back to the original speaking of Bhagavad-gītā by Śrī Kṛṣṇa. His knowledge of Sanskrit is impeccable. His penetration into the inner meaning of the text is befitting only a fully realized soul who has indeed perfectly understood the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā. Personally, I intend to use this book in the courses which I am directing by invitation of the Mexican government on the language, culture, and philosophy of India. This authorized edition of the Gītā will serve a double purpose in Spanish-speaking countries. One, it will help to stop the terrible cheating of false and unauthorized gurus and yogis; and two, it will give an opportunity to Spanish-speaking people to understand the actual meaning of Oriental culture."

Devotees: Jaya!

Ghanaśyāma: Sometimes... (break) ...they say the exact things, you know. It's so nice that people...

Prabhupāda: Sometimes I myself read my reviews.

Morning Walk -- March 22, 1976, Mayapura:

Devotee: One time you told us, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to meet every man at his door and ask him to give up everything he knows and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is simple. "You rascal, you give up whatever you have learned, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Don't say "rascal," but indirectly (laughter), that "Whatever you have learned, it is all nonsense." Sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt, "You give up everything, kicked out, and simply become adherent to Caitanya." This is our preaching. And what Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128), that's all. Because ultimately He is Kṛṣṇa.

Pañcadraviḍa: Can you repeat why you said you have been successful where others have not?

Prabhupāda: Because I stick to Kṛṣṇa's word. I, therefore, present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. We do not make any amendment nor accept any amendment. And, therefore, we decry everything—Gandhi, Dr. Radhakrishnan, Aurobindo, this, that—all rascals. Because they tried to amend it. That is admitted by the science professor. They have all tried to make it modernized, but I have not done. Here is the spiritual master in the disciplic succession, so we remain indebted to him to understand the original traditional knowledge.

Morning Walk -- March 25, 1976, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: ...means ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. The more we get material possession, our false egotism increases. "I have got this. I have got this. Who is more powerful than me?" Āḍhyo 'bhijanavān asmi ko 'nyo 'sti sadṛśo mayā. These are described in the Sixteenth Chapter. What is the meaning of this ahaṅkāra? Because vimūḍhātmā, that "I have got this motorcar. I have got this property," but within a second it can be finished. There is another, superior law. That he forgets. He sees actually, but he forgets. That is called vimūḍhātmā. He is seeing, everyone. Of course, our time and nature's time, little different. So many Hitlers, so many Napoleons, so many Gandhis, so many Jawaharlal came and went. But they do not see. Paśyann api na paśyati. They are seeing actually; still they do not see. Blind. In India the Mohammedans came. They ruled over. Where is the Moghul? The Englishmen came. Where they are? Everything gone. Paśyann api na paśyati. This is called vimūḍhātmā. That is going on. The material civilization means ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. By false egotism they are bewildered and rascals. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has translated this, that jaḍā-bidyā jato, māyāra vaibhava: "All this material advancement of civilization is the paraphernalia of māyā." Because you cannot enjoy it, but you are thinking, "I possess so much. I possess so much." You'll not be allowed to enjoy, but still.... Therefore all these material possessions are the paraphernalia of māyā. So what is the wrong there? Now, wrong is this, jaḍā-bidyā jato, māyāra vaibhava, tomāra bhajane bādhā. They are hindrances for advancement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the aim of human life. That, you forget that. So tomāra bhajane bādhā, anitya saṁsāre, moha janamiyā. The result is that he becomes more attached to this temporary world and remains the rascal. Because without being rascal, nobody comes in this material world to enjoy. As soon as anyone has come to this material world, he's a rascal. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta).

Conversation with News Reporters -- March 25, 1976, Delhi:

Reporter (1): So how would you define sin? What is impurities or to sin?

Prabhupāda: You cannot understand impurities?

Reporter (1): I mean, give any clear-cut definition.

Prabhupāda: Just like when you are diseased and the doctor gives you some vaccine and injection to cure you, to make you purified. Is it not?

Reporter (1): No, but could there be any clear-cut criterion, for example, to say that I have committed sin or I have not committed sin? What is sin?

Prabhupāda: Clear-cut criterion is that we living entity, being part and parcel, we are as good as God. But when we are under the control of the material nature, that is our diseased condition. Same example. Just like you, as a good citizen, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. You are Indian; you have got all the rights. But if you become criminal, you put into the prison. So we are in the.... Conditioned state means no freedom. It is not clear?

Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted you to tell me some yardstick from which one could...

Prabhupāda: But because you are suffering, that is the sign of impurity.

Reporter (1): Beg your pardon?

Prabhupāda: Because you are suffering.... Do you admit that you are suffering? Do you know this?

Reporter (1): Suffering means that there is some impurity.

Prabhupāda: No, are you not suffering?

Reporter (1): Yes, everybody is.

Prabhupāda: That is diseased condition. Just like diseased.... When you have got fever—you are suffering—that is diseased condition. So long you are suffering, you must be aware of the fact that you are in diseased condition. Because you are part and parcel, there is no question of suffering. Sac-cid-ānanda...

Morning Walk -- April 13, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "To become My devotee means you shall think of Me twenty-four hours," man-manā. Then you become a bhakta. Not that meditation—I meditate fifteen minutes and twenty-four hours thinking of something else.

Dr. Patel: Then you never, I mean, even for, it is just like you, even for a moment you slip down, just like a (indistinct). It should be perpetual conscious within yourself.

Prabhupāda: I have seen Gandhi's prayer meeting, and I attended. Utmost, five minutes reading Bhagavad-gītā, then again politics immediately. Immediately politics. I was in Delhi. I attended the meeting when Nawa Khalia (Noakhali?) fast. So this was his prayer. I have seen. And as a result of this, in that prayer meeting he was killed. (Hindi) So nature punishment are there. (Hindi) The last stage of Kali-yuga means you die.

Morning Walk -- April 15, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is the example in the Bhagavad-gītā. When Arjuna saw that "Kṛṣṇa wants it positively. Never mind my..."

Dr. Patel: Then the kariṣye vacanam...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is bhakti. "Never mind, I do not agree with Kṛṣṇa, but I see that He wants it, I must do." This is bhakti. Kṛṣṇa should be given preference. That is bhakti, not my whimsical way. That is not bhakti. And because we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore Kṛṣṇa is giving direction.

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ

jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

(BG 4.34)

Go to the person who has seen actually and take information. Simply by reading you will be misleaded. Even persons like Gandhi or Dr. Radhakrishna, Aurobindo, they were misled because they wanted to manufacture their own meaning. They did not like to act as Kṛṣṇa says.

Room Conversation -- April 30, 1976, Fiji:

Prabhupāda: Yac chreyaḥ syāt, yac chreyaḥ syāt tat brūhi me niścitam. So the spiritual master's duty is how to benefit the disciple, śreyaḥ. What is the translation?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. So because he accepted discipleship, so He immediately chastised him that "You rascal, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are on the platform of bodily conception of life, the platform of the animals." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Anyone who accepts this body as self, he's animal. He's not even a human being. So the whole world is on this bodily concept of life. That is going on. "American," "European," "Hindu," "Muslim," "black," "white," this, that. They do not know what is education. That is the first education, that "You rascal, you are not this body. You are within the body." So who understands this? And they're declaring that "We are student of Bhagavad-gītā. We have studied Bhagavad-gītā." Hmm? Even Gandhi, he takes photograph with Bhagavad-gītā, but his fighting is for nationalism. The others are doing that. So what is the use of taking Bhagavad-gītā? The Pakistanis are also doing that. But you have taken Bhagavad-gītā, you are doing the same work. So what is your credit? This is going on. So nobody is learning Bhagavad-gītā. It is first time that we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Otherwise, everyone is misled. The subject matter is that the soul is different from this body.

Room Conversation Excerpt -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Hitler one side, fought with the Britishers, smashed them. This is one cause. Another cause: Hitler helped Subhas Chandra Bose to organize I.N.A. Two causes, the Britishers to go away. Otherwise, Gandhi's noncooperation movement was started in 1917, and we got our independence in 1947.

Indian Man: Thirty years.

Prabhupāda: Thirty years he could not do anything. And Subhas Chandra Bose in 1940 or '42, he went out of India and organized this I.N.A with the help of Hitler, and the Britishers were obliged to leave India. What do you think? That is my estimation.

Garden Conversation -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Hm. I was in South Africa in, what is that city?

Hṛdayānanda: Johannesburg.

Prabhupāda: Johannesburg. From the downtown, the Indian quarters about ten miles or fifteen miles away. Indian.... African, black quarters, they are not allowed even to enter the city. They require a pass. If any black man enters the city without that passport, he will immediately be taken to police. The bus for the black man is different from the white man. I think Indians also they have got separate bus. But the bus in which the white men travel, the Indians and the black men are not allowed. Gandhi tried to adjust this injustice, but he failed. Then with determination he went to India, that "I must drive away the Englishmen." These South African white men, mostly they are Englishmen and Dutchmen. Originally, they were Englishmen and Dutchmen.

Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, the strange thing is that the fiercest racists in South Africa are the Boers, the Afrikaners...

Prabhupāda: That is Englishmen, Dutchmen, Dutchmen.

Morning Walk -- June 11, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: They'll try at least. Just like after the Second World War, Germany or England finished. They could not recoup. They are now poverty-stricken.

Rāmeśvara: Germany?

Prabhupāda: Germany is little recouped, but England is finished. Therefore I say India got independence not due to Gandhi. It is due to Hitler. That is my opinion. I have got reason. The Hitler fighting with England made them smashed, so their political power became nil almost, and on this opportunity, Hitler helped Subash Chandra Bose, one of the leaders of India, to organize Indian National Army. This Indian National Army, when attacked, at least made a show of attack from Imphala(?), especially on Calcutta dropped bombs, and the whole Calcutta became vacant. Perhaps myself and a few others remained. I sent my sons.... Of course, daughter was married, but they sent to Navadvīpa, Śrīdhara Mahārāja's āśrama. My wife refused to go out of Calcutta. She said, "I'll be bombed maybe, but I'll not go out." (laughs) So I had to remain in Calcutta. So I've seen bombing and Calcutta all vacant. And one day I was eating in the evening, at night—immediately bombing. Kachori... I was hungry, (laughs) but the eating finished.

Garden Conversation -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Someone may say, though, "How the fighting is religious? After all, it is a family feud."

Prabhupāda: That is your ignorance. But the beginning is dharma-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Yuyutsavaḥ means fighting. Two parties, they, actually, the two parties... Pāṇḍavas māmakaḥ caiva kim akurvata. Every word is significant. Fighting can be executed even in dharma-kṣetre. That they cannot understand. Gandhi misunderstood. If it is dharma-kṣetre, how there can be fighting? He wanted to prove nonviolence artificially. How it is possible? Kṛṣṇa is instigating him to fight, and how can you make it nonviolent? That is artificial. And if you want to explain something artificially, how long you'll do it, it will be failure. So Gandhi's philosophy of nonviolence and reading of Bhagavad-gītā went with him. Nobody is interested in that kind of explanation. And we are explaining Bhagavad-gītā as it is, it is increasing. It is increasing. There is no artificial way.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You'll get it. "How I, shall I get it?" Now, kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā. By the arrangement of eternal time, everything is available. The example is given that you do not want something distressful. As it comes upon you, similarly, even if you do not want, the happiness for which you are destined, it will come. Now, Prahlāda Mahārāja says, na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam. You should not waste your energy for material happiness. Because you cannot get material happiness more than what you are destined to have. That is not possible. "How shall I believe..." Because you get something distressful condition although you do not want. Who wants? In our country Mahatma Gandhi was killed by his own countrymen. Who did want it? Or why did it come? He was great man, he was protected by so many and.... Still, he was to be killed. Destiny. He was killed. Who can protect you? "So if the distressed condition come compulsory upon me, the other condition, the opposite number, also will come. Why shall I waste my time for this rectification? Let me utilize my energy for Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is intelligence. You cannot check your destiny.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a second part to this question also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They ask: if it's false that actually Hinduism is not fatalistic or sanātana-dharma is not fatalistic...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Fatalistic in this sense, that the destiny cannot be changed. Just like I have given already the example, that the Mahatma Gandhi, nobody expected that he would be killed by his own countryman. Why it happened? This means destiny cannot change. This is a prominent example, that Mahatma Gandhi, he was in a big meeting. Who expected that Mahatma Gandhi could be killed, and by his own countryman? But it was done. That is destiny. You cannot check it. So our point is that... The whole Vedic civilization is that destiny, a certain amount of happiness in this material world... Nobody is enjoying uninterrupted happiness. That is not possible. A certain amount of so-called happiness and certain amount of so-called distress. There must be always. So as you cannot check your distressed condition of life, similarly you cannot check your happy condition of life. It will come automatically. So don't waste your time for these things. You better utilize your energy for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they think that "These people are wasting time."

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Make everything clear.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that is very clear. Would you like to hear the next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No, it is clear or now?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So long it is not clear, you can go on asking. One question after one question.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The point was made by you that they don't understand what actual progress is.

Prabhupāda: Actually, destiny cannot be checked. That I have already given. Even Mahatma Gandhi could not. The destiny you cannot check.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. He was destined to be killed by his countryman, he was not? Such a big man, such vigilance and so many people were guarding him and still he was killed in the meeting. Why Mahatma Gandhi? Your president, ex, Kennedy. Was less protection was taken? No, every was there, everything was there but still he was killed. Who can stop this destiny? So destiny cannot be checked. The fatalists, they know, "My material happiness or distress, it cannot be checked. It will happen so why shall I waste my energy for this purpose. Let me utilize my energy for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Therefore it is said tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labyhate yad bhramatām (SB 1.5.18), that is intelligence.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if destiny cannot be changed, what does Kṛṣṇa mean when He says, "Be thou happy by this sacrifice." Prabhupāda: Do you know what is meant by sacrifice? Devotee: Sacrifice to Viṣṇu, to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means to please Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa is pleased He can change destiny. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti bhājāṁ (Bs. 5.54). Sacrifice means to please Kṛṣṇa, yajña. Yajña means to please Kṛṣṇa. The whole, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to please Kṛṣṇa. That is the whole program. In all other business there is no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. When they declare war, one nation to another, there is no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. They're pleasing their whims. The two, big, big wars began, it was not for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. The Germans wanted that their sense gratification is being hampered by the Britishers, "Declare war." That means it was a war of sense gratification. "The Britishers are satisfying their sense gratification; we cannot do. All right, fight." So, there was no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another part of this same question: if the harijanas, who constitute a sizable population amongst the Hindus, are made to feel that their very religion...

Prabhupāda: These are all artificial. The harijana word was used by Gandhi unnecessarily for a class of men who are not fit for the position. Harijana means "the men of Hari." Just like Nārada. Nārada is called harijana. Great devotee is called harijana, "the persons related with Hari." But if you select some bhangis and camaras and keep them as he is and rubberstamp it, "Here is a harijana," what will be the effect? There is no harm to pick up a low class man and to elevate him to the position of harijana. There is no impediment. You can do. But if you keep him a low class man and if you stamp him harijana, then what will be benefit? Just like we are initiating selected men. "Are you ready to follow these rules and regulation? When he says, then "Come on. Become harijana." Not that "I'll keep myself in that same abominable condition of life and I shall become harijana." So this "harijana" word has come from Gandhi. He did not try to make him real harijana. He simply rubberstamped him. So what is the value of this harijana?

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He had given a positive suggestion that one of the best ways for the harijanas to command respect amongst all sections of...

Prabhupāda: Where Vivekananda was there when harijana word was manufactured by Gandhi? At that time Vivekananda was not there. So why he's putting Vivekananda?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Vivekananda has already died when this harijana name...

Prabhupāda: Long, long ago. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: He's just using the word "harijana" in place of śūdra or what was formerly "untouchables."

Prabhupāda: He can use, but this "harijana" word was manufactured by Gandhi. Vivekananda died some time, 1900... I do not exactly remember. When Gandhi's movement was not started. Gandhi's movement was started in 1917. And long ago Vivekananda expired.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Dhṛṣṭadyumna:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

(BG 9.32)

"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth, women, vaiśyas, as well as śūdras, can approach the supreme destination."

Prabhupāda: Yes. The condition is that "those who take shelter unto Me." Now, Mahatma Gandhi manufactured the harijana, but where there is the teaching that "You take shelter of Kṛṣṇa?" So how this harijana will be effective? The condition is there, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32).

Morning Walk -- July 10, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: He has got some international name. So he says that "It's great fortune I have met you." He's now realizing his mistakes. He has still some respect for Vivekananda; that I did not disturb; he might misunderstand. Actually this Vivekananda rascal, what he has done? What is his contribution?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You always add on "rascal" whenever you mention his name.

Prabhupāda: No, no, what he has done? He has ruined the Vedic culture.

Hari-śauri: Completely misrepresented it.

Prabhupāda: And the Bon Mahārāja is his follower. He's in name a disciple of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, but he's a servant of Vivekananda.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's very similar to him.

Prabhupāda: He's a great appreciator of Vivekananda. He has put in his curriculum Vivekananda philosophy, Gandhi philosophy. Rascal, what philosophy they have got?

Evening Darsana -- July 11, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Because whatever we are discovering, it will be taken away by death. So discover something which will stop death. And that is real discovery.

Indian man (1): But don't you think it will be a bad thing, because there are some bad people in the world, like Hitler and Stalin and others, they may be the first people to use the technology to prolong their life?

Prabhupāda: The thing is, bad or good, everyone will be taken away by death. Is it not a fact? Hitler is no longer existing, neither Stalin nor Gandhi. Gandhi was supposed to be very good man. He's also taken by death, and Hitler is also taken by death. And Stalin also taken. And I'll also, you will be also. So death will take away everyone. There is no doubt about it. Therefore discover something which will stop death. That is real discovery.

Evening Darsana -- July 11, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) And they talk of Bhagavad-gītā and keeping Kṛṣṇa background? Somebody says?

Bali-mardana: Yes. Mostly they don't even talk of Bhagavad-gītā, they talk about social things, but Kṛṣṇa they keep to the back. They have named the place Gītā Mandira. Gītā Temple. But they do not discuss Gītā, just for show.

Prabhupāda: That is the disease. Even Mahatma Gandhi, he was talking of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā, but throughout his whole life he never established a temple of Kṛṣṇa, although his photograph you'll find with Bhagavad-gītā. This is the calamity.

Indian man (1): In the last days Mahatma Gandhi kept saying rāma rāma, rāma-nāma is the only way chanting... One of his article he says there is no other cure but to chant the name of the Lord.

Prabhupāda: Mahatma Gandhi would have preached Bhagavad-gītā, the world would have taken very seriously, because he was respectable.

Bali-mardana: You wrote him to preach Bhagavad-gītā.

Comments on Bhagavad-gita Play -- July 12, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: The whole basic principle is this, that people should understand, as I was explaining this morning, the sat and asat. So at the present moment we are living in the way that is asat. But there is another life, sat. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to raise a person from the asat platform to the sat. Under illusion they are, what is called, amock? They (laughs) have gone amock. So it is a humble attempt to stop their, this suicidal policy. They are practically committing suicide. They do not know what is the value of life and how they are spoiling it, this valuable life. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are trying to adjust things by the arrangement of external energy. That is not possible. Whatever adjustment they are making, so many big, big leaders, politicians, they came. Napoleon, Hitler, Gandhi, this, that, by the waves of material nature everything is driven away. In that way there is no possibility of adjustment. It is not... Kathacaturamanam mali mali javanam(?) How many, caturānana. Caturānana means Brahmā. They come and go, come and go. And there is no permanent life, it is all asat. So they should come to the sat platform, that is perfect. The more you remain strong in your spiritual life, then more it will be impressed, it will act. And if it actually is not spiritual life but theatrical performance, then it will not help.

Evening Darsana -- July 13, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Real love can be achieved when it is exchanged with Kṛṣṇa or God. Premā pum-artho mahān, that is the recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is the highest (indistinct) when we come on the loving platform with God, then we are satisfied. Big, big political leaders in our country like Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country so much. But the result was that he was killed by his own men, by his country men. But this is not possible when the love is exchanged between God. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31), a little love for God can save you from the greatest danger of life. That is real love. So if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love with everyone. Just like we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is out of love for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we would have sat down at home and love Kṛṣṇa. Why you are trying to spread this love exchange to others? Because I know or we know that here in this material world, the so-called love exchange is frustrating, and people are being frustrated. So let him love Kṛṣṇa, then we'll be successful. This is our mission. Everyone has got loving propensity. So this child has now love for his mother, for the mother has got... But as soon as the child will grow, the love is finished, he will love somebody else. When he becomes young man, his love is transferred to somebody else. So here the so-called love is not permanent, but when you love Kṛṣṇa it is permanent exchange of loving humor or mellow. So that is required. Sai this called sai-eva. Sai(?) means permanent it will never end. You'll relish loving mellows eternal.

Interview with Trans-India Magazine -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Interviewer: Prabhu, the... Can you tell us a little bit about the plans you have for your project in India?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I wanted to start this movement from India. I even requested Mahatma Gandhi, that "Mahatmaji, you have got some respect all over the world, and you are known as a great student of Bhagavad-gītā. Now you have got your sva-rājya, the Britishers have gone away. Let us preach Bhagavad-gītā." But I don't think I got any reply from him. Of course he was very busy man. My letter might have reached him or not reached him. The secretaries might have rejected. I think received from secretary, like that. But then after few days he was killed. So I was trying for this purpose in India. I approached many friends, that "You have got four sons. Give me one son so that I can train him how to become a real preacher of Bhagavad-gītā, how one can understand." Because Bhagavad-gītā is being misinterpreted. So I wanted to preach it as it is. That was my mission. So practically nobody joined me. Then I decided to come here. And these boys cooperated. So I have got great desire to... Because India is by nature Kṛṣṇa conscious, but our modern leaders keeping them suppressed. That is the difficulty. There are so many other difficulties, and leaders are misinterpreting Bhagavad-gītā. To tell you frankly, there are so many commentaries on Bhagavad-gītā by Dr. Radhakrishna, by Gandhi, by Tilak, by Aurobindo, or many others. But nobody has said that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." Do you admit or not? Has anybody said that, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. You are searching after God. Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Worship Him"? Nobody has stated. Am I right or not?

Interviewer: I am not that... I have not read all the, I have read Gandhiji's, I have read Radhakrishna's, I have.

Prabhupāda: Gandhiji has preached or Dr. Radhakrishna has written, but who has preached that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is to be worshiped? Just like we are preaching. Here in America, you have seen our temple? How they are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. So Bhagavad-gītā, main purpose is that. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So who has preached this? So, although they came, so many swamis, yogis, and politicians, they came, but they talked, what can I say? All irrelevant. Nobody spoke that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You worship Him." Nobody has said. This is the first time, I am saying. Do you agree or not?

Room Conversation -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: So fools cannot be enlightened. That is the difficulty. If they do not accept the authority, then they are fools.

Indian man: Yes. After I teach Gītā and I try to tell them to please sing...

Prabhupāda: That is not their fault. Even the big, big leaders of India, even Gandhi, they do not know actually. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. The Bhagavad-gītā has been misinterpreted, misused by the leaders, by the politicians, by the so-called philosophers. Everyone has misused.

Indian man: I'll tell you one thing, that Swami Chinmayananda...

Prabhupāda: He's a great...

Indian man: He's great, but I'll tell you what happened.

Prabhupāda: "Great" means great fool.

Room Conversation -- July 18, 1976, New York:

Bali-mardana: In India. Even that elderly gentleman, Nārāyaṇa, put him in jail. He's so old.

Prabhupāda: The result is that the Congress Party and Indira Gandhi will never be elected anymore. That is sure. Therefore he's postponing election. Now they have lost all their credit. They will never be elected. Congress Party and Indira Gandhi finished.

Bali-mardana: They have lost all respectability.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- July 19, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Somebody should send this clipping, not our men, to...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To your Godbrothers.

Prabhupāda: To Indira Gandhi.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some Indian people.

Prabhupāda: She is little anxious to cooperate with Americans, because the most criticism for his (her) present act... Everyone will criticize, the Americans have criticized like anything, and they are thinking that the American people are... Actually, her nation is under danger.

Room Conversation -- July 27, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are some. They are not all. Even they criticize that "You cannot see Kṛṣṇa." So similar argument can be, "You do not see Lenin. Why you are worshiping?" That's it. "Is Lenin present before you? So why you are worshiping?" You'll see. You have got, in Moscow got, every street corner a big picture.

Harikeśa: They're trying to replace everybody's desire to worship some greater authority.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, but if you or somebody argues, "Where is Lenin? You are.... Why you are worshiping? You cannot see Lenin..." Because they say, "Where is your Kṛṣṇa? You are worshiping a statue," so we can say the same thing, "Where is your Lenin? The statue, it is?" In the airport station, street crossing and everywhere there is picture. And they go to worship Lenin's tomb every day. Many other fools also go there, tourists, that Red Square. They tried in India for Jawaharlal Nehru's tomb, for Gandhi's tomb. So in the beginning there was little crowd. Now nobody goes. But Vṛndāvana, Govindaji's temple, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple? Without invitation-crowd. This is culture.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: You follow that, brahmacārī gurukula, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"—Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life, everything is stated there, try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to... Our students are not going to... Our students should be fit for teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biology, chemists, physicists, and mathematician there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that Gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist, don't want that. There are many other educational institutions. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of wasting your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare.

Room Conversation -- August 2, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Just see how rascal they are. My Guru Mahārāja every step condemned this Ramakrishna Mission and Vivekananda. He said frankly that if there are any impediments for our movement, that is this Gandhi and Vivekananda. He said frankly. Hodge-podge. Gandhi's also hodge-podge. He was a politician, and in politics he mixed some spiritual ideas, hodge-podge. And this Vivekananda was also politician. His name was recorded in the government as "sannyāsī-politician." Because after returning from America, he began to preach to make the poor man rich, and these weak, fatty, and so on, exercise. So the government took it that he's, under the dress of a sannyāsī, he's preaching social and political upliftment. So his name was recorded as "sannyāsī-politician." And his name was also recorded, "political saint," Gandhi. After all, the British government, they were very intelligent. They could understand what is what. Otherwise, how they were managing this big empire? Very intelligent, there is no doubt about it. And actually they were intelligent. When they were managing, we were happy, actually. Nobody can deny it. Although they were exploiting. But nobody could understand. Everyone was feeling happy. And as soon as they left, everyone is unhappy. That distinction I can give evidence, I can, from my personal experience. Things were very, very nice. Calcutta, oh, it was so nice city. Now it is hell. It is same Calcutta. Why it is now hell? Hidden(?) garden, that was a nice garden. So... Everywhere hell, only hell. Calcutta was considered the nicest city in India, better than Bombay, but it has become now hell. The streets, especially those quarters in our temple.

Hari-śauri: I think Calcutta was voted the second dirtiest city in the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācchā? Just see. And it was next to London. People used to say, "In the British Empire, first London, second Calcutta." And now it is...?

Evening Conversation -- August 8, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu has not bluffed. He said kalau nāsty eva: the Kali-yuga you cannot do anything more. You do simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty? A boy can chant. It is simply practice, association. Your son, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. So these chances should be given to everyone, then everything will be all right. Let him be practiced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then everything will go on. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Where is the difficulty? Unless we make it difficult. Otherwise there is no difficulty. Otherwise suffering. Just like this lamb. It has got the Iranian body, but he's kept there for being killed. So what is the benefit of this Iranian body? But people are very much enthusiastic to remain nationalists, "I am Iranian, I am American, I am this, I am that." So, but he has worked in a different way, so he has got attachment for becoming American and Iranian, "All right you become." And according to work you have to become a lamb. And other Iranians eat you. That's all. This is designation. They do not understand, or they are not educated that what he will get by these designations. Big, big movement is going on on this designation platform. In our country, Mahatma Gandhi, he is supposed to be a great personality, but what is his teaching? He remained in designation, that's all. Feel like Indian and drive away the English. And one designation, you drive away another designation. This is going on. And he took Bhagavad-gītā, he never said "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." This is going on. Karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa sakale viṣera bandha. This is karma-kāṇḍa. Designation movements. And higher than this karma-kāṇḍa, the mental speculators, jñāna-kāṇḍa. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura (says) both of them viṣera bandha. Pot of poison. If you waste your time in this way, then they will get another body, that's all. Nana yoni bhraman kare kadārya bhakṣana kare, tara janma adha pate yaya. These are simple words but, it contains very, very grave meaning. This is Vaiṣṇava ācārya.

Evening Darsan -- August 10, 1976, Tehran:

Atreya Ṛṣi: ...about Gandhi.

Prabhupāda: This Indira Gandhi?

Atreya Ṛṣi: No, Mahatma Gandhi. When I was in America three months ago, this was in a magazine, a new study. And it was very interesting because it showed that how subconsciously this man was very much, very much affected by sex, influenced. After I read it, I understood your comments a lot better, because it was a very frank study of details of his life and...

Prabhupāda: You sit down, I'll show you.

Nava-yauvana: I should sit in front here.

Atreya Ṛṣi: No, you stand and do it. Do it but do it strongly. Or you can do it like this, just comfortable. Comfortable. He was used to getting massage from woman.

Prabhupāda: Acchā?

Evening Darsana -- August 11, 1976, Tehran:

Guest: I think the temples are increasing, particularly in Germany, England, and I suppose in America as well.

Prabhupāda: Yes, in America we have got forty branches. Our philosophy is simple. We educate people to understand that there is God. This is a godless civilization. So we say that there is God. Try to understand, and love Him, that's all. This is our philosophy. Then you'll be happy. And so long you do not love God, you simply love dog, you'll never be happy. That is our philosophy. You have diverted your loving spirit to the dog. You change it. Instead of loving dog, you love God. Then dog will be loved and everyone will be loved. If you simply love dog, then your love will be simply in dog. But if you love God, then you'll love God and dog also. Just like you are eating. So the eatable is going to the stomach. If you distribute this eatable to the eyes, to the ears, to the nose—there are nine holes—it will be uselessly spoiled. And if you give this foodstuff to the stomach, the energy will be immediately distributed to the ears, to the eyes, to the nose, to the... Similarly, if you have got a propensity to love, you love God, your love will be distributed everywhere. And if you fix your love to the dog, then it is uselessly spoiled. That is going on. They have manufactured love for country, for this, that, so many things. But without love of God. Therefore the disturbance is going on. However big nationalist you may be, you cannot make happy anyone. That is not possible. Take for example our Mahatma Gandhi. He's recognized nationally, but he was killed by his countrymen. That's a fact. That means he could not make happy anyone. So we have got some loving propensity. If we love... That is our natural position. If we love God, then our love for others will automatically be done. And on account of loving God, our life will be perfect.

Evening Darsana -- August 14, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: French Bhāgavatam. No, Dutch Bhāgavatam? Dutch also. No, they have printed, I have seen it.

Devotee: Spanish also.

Prabhupāda: They may read and translate. And why in India where there is Bhagavad-gītā? Apart from all other Vedic literatures, set aside, the gist of all Vedic knowledge, Bhagavad-gītā, there is. And still, people are kept into darkness. How much lamentable. Still, big, big leaders, at least, they want to preach Bhagavad-gītā—without Kṛṣṇa. They have set aside lakhs of rupees for preaching Bhagavad-gītā, but condition is if you preach without Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Bhagavad-gītā in every page it is written "śrī-bhagavān uvāca." Not even it is said "kṛṣṇaḥ uvāca." Because some rascal may take Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being, therefore Vyāsadeva has specifically said... People know it, "kṛṣṇaḥ uvāca," but he says "śrī-bhagavān uvāca." The bhagavān word. People may not mistake that Kṛṣṇa is somebody else. And they want to banish Kṛṣṇa from Bhagavad-gītā. Even Gandhi did it. So you explain Bhagavad-gītā as it is there in Ahmedabad?

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They like it?

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Many young people are very attracted.

Prabhupāda: Yes, when real thing will be presented, it will act.

Room Conversation -- August 14, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Anyone. Take Mahatma Gandhi. He was so great student of Bhagavad-gītā. Did he preach kṛṣṇa-bhakti? Bhagavad-gītā minus Kṛṣṇa, this is going on. Yes. Kaṁsa. Kill Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. What is the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? And everyone is preaching like this. Very worse condition of the world. Godlessness, and they'll suffer, there is no doubt. Prakṛti is very strong. You can do whatever you like, but kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya, that will act. You may be very proud of your so-called prestigious position, but the kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya... Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi... (BG 13.22). Find out.

Guest: Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān.

Prabhupāda: Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān. He has to, he has to. Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān. So we are now put into the material prakṛti, and prakṛti-jān guṇān, we have to accept another body.

Room Conversation -- August 20, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: ISKCON Juhu? That is sufficient address?

Saurabha: Well, this was hand-delivered. It would be nice if... I think now it is sufficient. Many letters come like that now.

Prabhupāda: No, we are famous now, Juhu.

Saurabha: But your official letters, the name of the street is called A. B. Nyer Road. I never knew that. I thought it was the road in the back.

Prabhupāda: No, they said Gandhi, Juhu Road?

Room Conversation -- August 20, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: This movement was started by President Eisenhower with the help of a Christian priest.

Saurabha: Now the son of Gandhi, he is the main president...

Prabhupāda: Who?

Saurabha: The son of Mahatma Gandhi.

Prabhupāda: Shri Ramdal(?) Gandhi?

Saurabha: He's the head man of that institute there. And then some very big European industrialist they are also involved. They've spent two crores of rupees on that complex. It's very well maintained also. I went into the building. It's excellent. But there is nobody.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Nobody. (break) So it is immediately cut.

Room Conversation -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: When the Englishmen were ruling over this country and Gandhi had to do so much labor, his life sacrificed, some way or other they were gone. Now the same Englishman is working here as book distributor. (laughs) Who was our ruler. So whose achievement is better? Gandhi's or mine?

Gargamuni: Yours.

Prabhupāda: And one Englishman is giving me massage. This rascal criticizing. But they have come to me for money? They are poor or they are illiterate fools? They have come to me for money or some material gain? No. Unless they are convinced about the spiritual gain, why they should give me such service? They have no eyes to see.

Room Conversation with Endowments Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Yes, plan is there. Just like we are doing. And we can give you in detail. Provided you accept this principle that we shall abide by the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā.

Commissioner: Who questions the Gītā and the Upaniṣads?

Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. Very difficult. You see. Big, big scholars, big, big politicians, they are supposed to be preaching Bhagavad-gītā. They take their photograph in front of Bhagavad-gītā, but without Kṛṣṇa. They'll never talk of Kṛṣṇa any time. Banish Kṛṣṇa. Even Gandhi has said, "My imagination of Kṛṣṇa is different." Perhaps you have read in his Gītā-Press edition.(?) Kṛṣṇa is speaking... Radhakrishnan said when Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, he says "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad bhaktaḥ, and he says it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person. Just see how misleading it is. And if a person like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi, misleads, then who will hear me? What I am? There is one big person in Bombay, he said that he has set aside ten lakhs of rupees for Gītā-pracāra. But when I proposed Gītā-pracāra means Kṛṣṇa pracāra, so he said, "No, I want Gītā without Kṛṣṇa." Everyone...

Room Conversation with Endowments Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Commissioner: Then who is the Gītā-pracāra? Gītā-pracāra.

Prabhupāda: They are doing that. You can see from this big, big person. Gandhi used to say that he believes in Gītā and Gītā gives him solace in difficult times and so on, so on. But has he ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Tilok has ever preached about Kṛṣṇa? Radhakrishnan has ever preached Kṛṣṇa? Nobody. Their policy is take Sītā and kill Rāma. Rāvaṇa's policy. Take away Sītā. Take away Gītā and kill Kṛṣṇa. So Rāvaṇa's policy will never be successful. Rāvaṇa's policy means he will be destroyed. You cannot do any harm to Rāma, but he will be destroyed. This policy, that take Sītā and kill Rāma, means he will destroy himself. So this is going on. Take Gītā and kill Kṛṣṇa. This will destroy the whole thing. This Rāvaṇa's policy. And Hanumān's policy is somehow or other rescue Sītā and get her seated by the side of Rāma. Therefore he's worshiped, Vajrāṅgajī. That is the difference between Rāvaṇa's policy. Sītā is the via media. But one is trying to bring back Sītā and seat her by the side of Rāma, and another is trying to take away Sītā and kill Rāma. This wrong policy will not take. We have to accept the instruction of Gītā and accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. Then everything will be all right. Prasāda? So thank you very much for your coming. So, kindly if you will agree to take the instruction of Gītā, I am always at your service. I'll give you such guidance, our men, our everything. But you have to decide this. You cannot take up this policy, take Gītā and banish Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted.

Room Conversation (Bullock Cart SKP) -- September 12, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: I have seen, Gandhi wanted to organize a program, village (break) ...in the field, that this program for constructing toilet in the village, they have spent so much. You know that? The first business was toilet. To restrict them to pass stool here and there, they must have. Now in constructing that toilet paraphernalia, (indistinct), they... Therefore it failed, village organization. Not for that purpose. There were many purpose. Because they had no engagement, so why they should remain in the village? There are so many attraction in the city, and they get money. The factory-wallas, they're inviting, "Come here. You shall get twenty rupees per day." Why shall he remain in the village? So if you can organize in the villages, they are interested in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and getting nice prasādam, then... One must have some attachment. In the city there are so many artificial attachments. So on what ground they'll remain in the village? Mind, always remember this. Unless you have got some attachment, there is no possibility. Gandhi's program was very nice, village organize so that they may not come to the city and help the capitalists. Remain satisfied in the village. But where is that satisfaction? That is the failure.

Press Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh:

Interviewer: Now two priests of your temple in America have been arrested on certain charges as we read from the newspaper...

Prabhupāda: Well, the charges will be there. Gandhi was also charged, and was arrested. And that you cannot stop. That will go on in any movement. That is not any fault. Because the counter-charges are already there, everywhere. What is the American charges? I do not know. What is that?

Interviewer: That you have money from... Extortion of money from the devotees. Asking their parents to pay or some such thing.

Prabhupāda: Parents to pay. This is a farce.

Interviewer: As a donation or contribution.

Prabhupāda: So we can ask donation from anyone. What is the fault there? Is it extortion? What is that extortion? Suppose if I ask for donation...

Interviewer: No, they equate that this donation was extortion.

Prabhupāda: No, no, extortion, what do you mean by extortion? If I ask you donation and if you pay, does it mean it is extortion?

Interviewer: They say those two people were kept in custody before...

Prabhupāda: That is false accusation. There was no such charge. Besides that, we do not have many contributions. We have got contributions, big lumps of money. One of my disciples is the great-grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. So he has given a big contribution, and he's always prepared to spend for me. He has got enough money. Another boy, George Harrison, Beatle, he has given us the London temple. It is worth about fifty-five, sixty lakhs worth. So we don't get any money, but they have given us many buildings. And our main source of income is the selling of these books. We are selling books daily all over the world, five to six lakhs rupees.

Press Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh:

Prabhupāda: We're not only chanting, we are giving them work. We are trying to become self-sufficient, the same idea of Gandhi's village organization, so they may not come out from the village. They'll be satisfied, village economics. That we are doing.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, Prabhupāda is doing the same thing in America now.

Prabhupāda: America we have nine, eleven centers like that.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Farms. This is a review from a local, from O.P. Baradraj, Principal of Government College for Men, Chandigarh.

Prabhupāda: One minute. Perhaps you are, any representative of Novara Times?

Interviewer: Yes, he is here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you published I think two years before, about our New Vrindaban. And you stated that it is a wonderful land, that... What is that?

Room Conversation -- October 31, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Indian and American, all learned scholars, they have spoken. Where is that statement? And Doctor Saligram, he has spoken very nice. Where is that? Doctor Saligram, Indian Professor, anthropology or something like that. So now better to see the movement from behind, who is that man behind it? (laughter)

Haṁsadūta: Now they're looking for you.

Prabhupāda: That British government said, "Gandhi in jail is more dangerous than he is free." (laughter)

Hari-śauri: These are the statements.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Dr. Saligram?

Hari-śauri: Yeah, Dr. Saligram Sukla.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Room Conversation on New York court case -- November 2, 1976, Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Their whole economic structure will fail. Theoretically, take it for granted that if people give up meat-eating...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No smoking, no drinking.

Prabhupāda: Then whole civilization finished. Even theoretically taken, no smoking, no gambling, no intoxication, no illicit sex, their whole civilization is finished. Lord Zetland said... Not only that, one Sir Valentine Chiro (?), I think, Sir Valentine Chiro, British, important, when Gandhi started non-cooperation. So he remarked that "If Gandhi's movement, this non-cooperation movement is one percent successful, then we will have to leave it." And actually that happened. Because they were ruling over India by Indian cooperation. Gandhi struck to the right point, non-cooperation, and he scented the danger, and he remarked at that time, that if one percent of the Indian people non-cooperate then we are, our British empire finished. So there are intelligent persons, they are thinking in their own way that this movement is so strong against this modern material civilization, if it is allowed to spread then our whole civilization, whole economic structure will be finished.

Room Conversation -- November 3, 1976, Vrndavana:

Hari-śauri: Potato pakorā.

Prabhupāda: Oh, hm. (break) ...just in front of our house, attached to our house. That means the house belonged to one of our relatives and her son, stepson, he sold the whole house to a Marwari without the knowledge of this, my, she was in relation grandmother. So when the house was sold in those days, about say about 100 years ago, not 100 years, about 90 years. In Mahatma Gandhi road, most important, that Mullik's house you have seen? That was one of the Mullik's house, for 12,000 rupees. One bighā of land and grand building. So it was unknown to the stepmother, the stepson sold it. Then she appealed to the high-court that, "I belong to a respectable family and this my spoiled stepson has sold the house without my knowledge, then where shall I go?" The high-court considered that, "The drunkard son has sold at a cheap price, and she's belongs to a respectable family, where she'll go?" And the high-court order was, "The half of the house shall be used by this lady. During her lifetime, you cannot take possession," the Marwari who purchased. So under that grandmother, we used to live. Therefore this half portion of the house was a Marwari school. So it is just like our temple and this. So my father first admitted me in that Marwari school. So I learned this devanāgarī there, for a few days I was going. I was the only Bengali student there. Because I was little, my father thought that instead of going outside the house, within the house there is a school, get him admitted. The school name was Visuddhana(?) Marwari Vijnala(?), something like that, and later on they constructed huge building Visuddhana(?). Then the house was vacated. So in the beginning I was admitted in a Marwari school and I learned a little Hindi there, that's all.

Room Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper -- November 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: No, they don't want simple thing.

Indian man (2): And what is the use of becoming rich man? It is all fruitless.

Prabhupāda: Rich man you can become but for how long you shall be rich? The nature is so cruel; at any moment he'll take away everything. Then what is the use of becoming? No, you become rich man. There is no... But you should know that "Although I am rich, powerful, everything can be taken by nature at any moment." Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). That is statement of God, that "Any moment... You try to become rich, powerful, and president or minister, that's all right, but any moment, I can take everything from you." So who will protect himself? They have no brain that "Whatever I have created, it can be taken at any moment." So what is that confidence? They have no inquiry even. That this is a fact. Either you become Napoleon, Hitler or Gandhi, or this or that, any moment everything will be taken away. "Get out." Not only that, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), you have to accept another body. And that is no guarantee what body you are going to get because fully under the control of nature. They therefore don't believe in transmigration of the soul. And that is very great botheration. They try to evade. But Kṛṣṇa says, God says, "You cannot evade. It is nature's law." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Within your body the soul is there. On account of presence of the soul—you were a child; now you are a grown young man—the body has changed. You were a boy; now you are young man. So on account of presence of the soul, the body is changing. So when this body will be finished, the soul will exist. Therefore, naturally you have to conclude, there will be another body.

Room Conversation -- December 20, 1976, Bombay:

Guest (Indian man): Could it be that there may be different interpretations?

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. That is not the process. You cannot interpret Bhagavad-gītā. If you want to preach Bhagavad-gītā, you must preach what Kṛṣṇa has said. If you have got a different philosophy, you can say differently. You don't cheat people that you take Bhagavad-gītā and interpret in your own way and cheat others and be cheated yourself. You cannot do that.

Guest: Well, for example, Tilak Maharaj...

Prabhupāda: Tilak may be, Gandhi may be, whoever may be. But the point is that you have to understand Bhagavad-gītā according to the direction of the author. Because you are Mr. Tilak or Mr. Gandhi, you can do everything on Bhagavad-gītā...

Guest: No no, that is not the idea. But there are different type ślokas.

Prabhupāda: Now how you have got a different types of... Just like the Bhagavad-gītā begins, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). So dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre, how you can interpret in a different way? Kurukṣetra is already there. But how you can interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this, Kurukṣetra means that?" You cannot interpret.

Guest: Yes, but who is decided what exactly the meaning...

Prabhupāda: Exactly the meaning is there.

Room Conversation with Life Member, Mr. Malhotra -- December 22, 1976, Poona:

Prabhupāda: These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life. The aim of life is to go back home, back to Godhead. That they do not know. They are trying to adjust things by material arrangement. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā. This hope will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. This material energy is the external energy of the Lord. So they are enamored by the external energy; they have no information of the internal energy. Svarūpa-śakti. Just like every one of us in the conditioned state, we are busy with this body, the external energy. And the internal energy, the soul, is there. We have no information. Although we practically daily see that as soon as the internal energy is off, it is nothing but as good as the stone. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are giving importance to the external energy. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And they are being encouraged by the so-called leaders to give stress on this external energy. Although they are tightly tied with the laws of nature. The laws of nature will finish this body. But still they are attached to this body. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. I had been to that Gandhi's place.

Mr. Malhotra: Gandhi's place, Wardha. Prabhupāda: Wardha. And I saw his cottage and everything. So I said this is the... After all he wanted to live very simple life in a cottage, why he declared war against the Britishers? What was the necessity? (Hindi) Britishers would never tackled you or objected. The villagers were using. Why so much energy was engaged, to drive away the Britishers?

Room Conversation with Life Member, Mr. Malhotra -- December 22, 1976, Poona:

Prabhupāda: Maharastrians are very neat and clean. Upper class, they are very. (break) ...karmī.

Mr. Malhotra: Good man.

Prabhupāda: Good man from worldly point of view, but from spiritual point of view, in the lowest stage. Karmī is the lowest stage. Then jñānī, then yogi, then bhakta.

Mr. Malhotra: More a politician.

Prabhupāda: Yes, karmī means this how to enjoy this world. Whole life they have struggled how to enjoy this, how to enjoy myself, how to allow my men to enjoy. This is karmī platform. Everyone is doing that. Everyone is working hard for himself, for his family, and expand the family, for society, and expand the society, for the nation. Here is karmī plan. Gandhi, Birla they are all... There is no question of spiritual life.

Morning Walk -- December 25, 1976, Bombay:

Guest (1): Sir, I read in one of your lectures at London, before the British office (indistinct), and you gave the example of Mahatma Gandhi and Kennedy. In particular, Mahatma Gandhi you said that four types of (sic:) defaulted mind and this condition and those condition.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Every living being is polluted by four kinds of deficiencies. A conditioned soul commits mistake. He takes something for something. And because he has no perfect knowledge, he wants to become leader. That is cheating.

Guest (1): Right. You have said that in that speech.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And, above all, his senses are imperfect. Therefore, from such persons with deficiency, how you can get real knowledge? That is not possible. We have to approach a person who has no deficiency. Then we shall get real knowledge. So Kṛṣṇa and His representative are persons without any deficiencies. So we have to take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa or one who represents Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we'll be cheated, because he has got deficiencies.

Guest (1): But that you have said, that one of his colleague or assistant told to Gandhi that "There is danger, and you shouldn't go to the meeting," and in spite of that...

Prabhupāda: No, no, I did not say. I wrote one letter to Gandhi that, "Mahatmaji, you have got some respectability throughout the whole world. Now you struggled for so-called svarāja. Now you have got it. Better retire from this life and preach Bhagavad-gītā."

Morning Walk -- December 25, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He was implicated. This is māyā, that although he got svarāja, he was not free. He was full of anxiety, and he he was not at all... (aside:) Ayi. Jaya. So long one is absorbed in material thoughts, he'll be full of anxieties.

Guest (1): That's true. He was full of anxieties.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he could not get any spiritual idea. Asad grahāt. Material existence means accepting something which will not exist, asat. Asato mā sad gamaya. The Vedic instruction is: "Do not remain in this material world, and make your progress..." Asato mā sad gamaya. But people are so accustomed to materialistic way of life that they are reluctant. That is māyā, very strong. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very, very difficult. Māyā tries to punish every conditioned soul, and as soon as there is some attempt to get out of the clutches of māyā, she becomes still strong: "Where you shall go my dear son? You remain with me." Yaḥ devī sarva-bhūteṣu nidra-rūpiṇa sam...(?) In the Caṇḍī, yaḥ devī, he is situated, keeping the conditioned souls in dream. He is simply dreaming, "I'll be happy in this way; I'll be happy in that way." And that is mental concoction. He'll never be happy. Kṛṣṇa said moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ, āsurīṁ bhāvam āśri... (BG 9.12). Because he has not recognized the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all his hopes and endeavors will be baffled. So even a person like Mahatma Gandhi, he became baffled.

Guest (1): Yes, that's right. He admitted also.

Prabhupāda: And what to speak of others. His ambition was Hindu-Muslim unity. So that was banned.

Morning Walk -- December 25, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, as soon as you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā in your own way, it is finished. It is finished. Naṣṭa. Yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. So naṣṭa cheese, what is naṣṭa, what is the use of...?

Guest (1): It should be destroyed. No use to it.

Prabhupāda: Suppose if I supply you something which is spoiled, then what benefit you will derive? Therefore no benefit is derived by the people in general either from Gandhi or Vinoba Bhave or Tilak because it was naṣṭa.

Guest (1): Sir, how do you compare it with... This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement...

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is...

Guest (1): ...for the common man, for the downtrodden, for the poor...

Prabhupāda: Yes, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they will understand.

Morning Walk -- December 25, 1976, Bombay:

Guest (2): What are the aims of the Indian society. Although it's given birth to so much, it still doesn't take it as success. What is the weakness in the Indian society that they don't...

Prabhupāda: Because they have got bad leaders, the rascal leaders. Just like see. Mahatma Gandhi, he misled. But he did not know how to lead. And what to speak of others. They do not know. I saw this Vinoba Bhave, he does not know anything. He has become leader. I saw in his āśrama about one dozen women, they are reciting Bhagavad-gītā. That's all. And for the last forty years he's working on Bhagavad-gītā, and the result is some forty women is reciting Bhagavad-gītā. So this is the result. So what they will do? They do not know how to lead. And he has written one book on Bhagavad-gītā, but he has become a great leader. And that is also not according to Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on. This is going on.

Morning Walk -- December 25, 1976, Bombay:

Guest (1): Not only take it but they'll ridicule and say that something has gone wrong somewhere.

Prabhupāda: They'll not take it: "No! What is this Swamiji...? Mahatma Gandhi says this and this... Tilak says this, this, that." And if we say that they are wrong, then people will criticize, "Oh, he has become more than..." This is the difficulty. We don't say anything except what is said by the great personalities that are Kṛṣṇa conscious. So I am not saying anything of my own manufacture. I am simply saying what Kṛṣṇa has said. But they will reject that. I say that Kṛṣṇa says that you become a Kṛṣṇa's devotee. It is very simple for me. And they will say, "Huh! What is this nonsense Kṛṣṇa? We have seen this Kṛṣṇa. Now we have got this leader." This is the problem. Upadeṣo hi mūrkhāṇāṁ prakopāya na śāntaye.

Morning Walk -- December 25, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: They wanted for graft, to manipulate their empire. They wanted some subordinate hands. They never wanted to give real education.

Guest (2): That's true.

Prabhupāda: They wanted that the... That is cooperation. That is one of the Gandhi's understanding, that "These people are ruling over us by our cooperation. Therefore let us noncooperate and they'll fail. They'll not be able to rule."

Guest (1): Carry on their...

Prabhupāda: But that program was also failure because India is so poor that there was no possible to noncooperate, because Gandhi's civil disobedience movement only 60,000 men joined, and we have 600,000,000. So what is the percentage?

Guest (1): Not even one percent.

Prabhupāda: And that also, when they came back from the jail life, they decided not to do it again. Therefore Gandhi did not recommend mass civil disobedience next time. He recommended individual... (break) ...but (indistinct) 19l7, and we got svarāja in 1947. So it was not due to civil disobedience or noncooperation. It was due to Subash Bose's INA. He thought that when he organized soldiers, and...

Guest (1): Put them on the battlefield, fought them, defeated them...

Prabhupāda: Yes. And when the Britishers found, "Now the soldiers are non-cooperating. There is no hope of ruling," they left.

Morning Walk -- December 25, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Subash Bose was always against this nonviolent means. That is the difference of opinion with Gandhi. So he wanted to capture the whole power, and he captured, but Gandhi became so angry upon him that he did not attend the Congress when Subash Bose was elected President. Then other lieutenants-Subash Bose also was Gandhi's student—so when others planned, requested that "Gandhiji is not happy. You better resign." So he resigned, and tactfully he went out of India. He knew that "So long Gandhi is there, my policy... I'll not be able because there will be..."

Guest (1): Always opposition.

Prabhupāda: "...opposition." Therefore he went out and organized the INA, and that was successful. It is not Gandhi's noncooperation movement.

Guest (1): That's true. Now in the British official records which they are publishing their secret papers of twenty-five years, that knowledge is very clearly that it was this armed fight of Indian National Army which convinced the British that they could not rule India with the Indian soldiers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real noncooperation. (laughter) What this public noncooperation will do. They are simply clerks. Some of them may be high-court judges, but no responsible post was given.

Guest (1): And all these atrocities were committed by Indians upon Indians at the orders of the British.

Prabhupāda: All the big, big secretaries, under-secretaries, governors... There was no minister, all European, only some clerks. So what is the use of clerks' noncooperation? They didn't care. And in order to pat Gandhi, the governor sometimes used to invite him. "Sir, you are so powerful. Kindly stop this movement." And Gandhi became puffed-up that the Britishers are very afraid of him. "No! I shall do." And Subash Bose insisting, "In this way, they'll never go by this nonviolent."

Morning Walk -- December 27, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Chandra Swami. He is the president?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, of Bharat (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: He has recommended our case, that "This is the only institution who is making the Christian Hindu. Before this movement the Christian converted Hindus. Nobody could convert the Christian to become Hindu. And this is the only movement that is converting Christian to Hindu." So he is very much in favor of this movement, and it is understood that he talked with Indira Gandhi in telephone. So maybe that if that Hindu movement is increasing and in India the cow slaughter is going on, and it is against Hindu, (they) might have considered like that.

Morning Walk -- December 29, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Now how they cannot fight? They are swines and dogs. How they will remain peaceful? It is not possible. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Unless they are spiritually elevated they cannot be peaceful. It is impossible. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Simply by stamping.

Dr. Patel: And there is another class of...

Prabhupāda: Gandhi became mahātmā, but his mission was, "Get out, Englishmen, get out." Where is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu? He declared himself mahātmā, but his business was how to drive away the Englishmen.

Dr. Patel: Sir, he, I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt you. He never hated Englishmen. It's their method he wanted to drive out.

Prabhupāda: I do not hate you, but I beat you with shoes. (laughter)

Morning Walk -- December 30, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: He has written books, Bhagavad-gītā Pravacana. In his bhāṣya there is no kṛṣṇa-bhakti. So what is this Bhagavad-gītā Pravacana. Why he has avoided kṛṣṇa-bhakti? What is the reason?

Girirāja: He's envious.

Prabhupāda: Gandhi has... He's envious. The same thing. Bhagavad-gītā, he is writing essays on Bhagavad-gītā but the main principle of Bhagavad-gītā, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. What is that?

Girirāja: Mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me.

Prabhupāda: So where is that?

Girirāja: They don't follow.

Press Interview -- December 31, 1976, Bombay:

Indian man: What do you find, you know, that when you impart this knowledge to Western disciples and when you talk to someone who are in India, what difference do you find?

Prabhupāda: Indian men refuse this culture. India's leader, beginning from Gandhi and all, they do not know what is India's culture. They have forgotten.

Indian man: Would you like to include Gandhi also in that?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Otherwise, how it can be? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31).

Indian man: But he was the one who also preached Gītā.

Prabhupāda: But he did not know Gītā. Actually. Recently I have been in his āśrama. They are maintaining the chattai (?) and the lantern in memory. What is that? If Mahatma Gandhi understood Gītā, he should have introduced that āśrama in Gītā. Where is that? The chattai (?) food arrangement is there.

Indian man: So that is done by his disciples and not by him. He never...

Prabhupāda: That means he could not make his disciple correctly.

Press Interview -- December 31, 1976, Bombay:

Indian man: But what was your experience of that saksaska?

Prabhupāda: Now how you will understand unless you come to the science? (break) Gandhi manufactured. The Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and he wanted to draw the conclusion of nonviolence. What is this? Kṛṣṇa says kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame... "In this battlefield you are talking of nonsense, that 'I'll not fight.' " He says so and Gandhi wanted to make it nonviolent. Just see how from the very beginning he distorted. And people accept it. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ (BG 3.21). He was a śreṣṭha, leader. So whatever he will say people will accept. The whole India became spoiled.

Indian man: But the way to saksaska (?) is only...

Prabhupāda: Saksaska is... Kṛṣṇa is speaking, "Here I am." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Now why not saksaska? You can have. Unless you believe... You do not believe it.

Press Interview -- December 31, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Ah. Central point is to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Then?

Pradyumna: Vivikta-deśa-sevitvam aratir jana-saṁsadi (BG 13.11).

Prabhupāda: Ah. Not to mix with this rascal class of men. Aratir jana-saṁsadi. Not that I hold a meeting and some rascals give me clapping, (claps hands) I become... Don't be after this. Try to understand the reality. But we, we become political leader, and if one thousand or one lakh of people give me a few claps I think I become perfect. What you are perfect? The next moment by the laws of nature you'll be slapped and taken away. Who could save Gandhi when he was fired by the laws by the nature? That clapping would not save me. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). When Kṛṣṇa will come and put you death, what you will do? With you clapping and your bank balance. You'll be taken away. Then?

Pradyumna: Adhyātma-jñāna-nityatvaṁ tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam.

Prabhupāda: Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. Tattva-jñāna. What is tattva? These things are absent completely from the whole world. But everything is there. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. If people take it they'll be benefited. This simple mission. We are following Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said that you become guru. Everyone become guru. So how shall I become guru? Very simple thing.

Press Interview -- December 31, 1976, Bombay:

Indian man: What does, as you were telling about Gandhi and Aurobindo or Tilak or Gyaneshwar. What...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are asking? You study then whether they have spoken something else or Bhagavad-gītā. It is your business. Why you are asking me? But we say anyone who says against Bhagavad-gītā, he's a rascal.

Indian man: No, but they have said something in favor of Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: But I don't see that they have made one single Kṛṣṇa bhakta, neither they were Kṛṣṇa bhakta. What kind of Bhagavad-gītā they have read I do not know. I see by the result. The last word of Bhagavad-gītā is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto... Mām eva... Sarva-dharmān. That is study of Bhagavad-gītā. They do not speak of Kṛṣṇa anywhere, that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, you become a devotee." Now how he has read Bhagavad-gītā? I shall take it? Simply make jugglery of words? We have to see the result. They have neither made one Kṛṣṇa bhakta, neither they were Kṛṣṇa bhakta. How he has read Bhagavad-gītā? Tell me. This is the test. They... Whole country is after Gandhi or Aurobindo or big, big. But who is Kṛṣṇa bhakta under their direction? Now we are simply following Caitanya Mahāprabhu, yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Just see. Thousands are become Kṛṣṇa bhakta. See by practical.

Room Conversation -- December 31, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you simply repeat as Kṛṣṇa says. That will save you. The so-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam. This is the process of knowledge. These so-called scholars and politicians, they have no ācārya. Instead of being amānitvam, they're mani... "I have become a leader, so whatever I shall say, it will be accepted." This is going on. Very bad. It is clearly said, as soon as you give up the ācārya system it is rotten. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. So things which is rotten, what you'll get benefit? That is going on. Therefore in spite of so many Gītā commentators, big, big leaders, scholars, not a single person is converted into a devotee. Not a single person amongst their followers. It's useless talking. Therefore it is forbidden. Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtam... Because they are not Vaiṣṇava, politicians and—reject them immediately. Immediately. That is the injunction. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are so respectful. People have got... Now you have got your svarāja. Please take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and let us preach."

Room Conversation -- December 31, 1976, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: I grant you. And take the fruit and realize.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni (BG 18.61). If you have done then you must suffer or enjoy. That's all. That is your business. You get... Now you have created a karma. You have to enjoy it by accepting a certain type of body. Now you take it. I ask māyā, "Give him this body. He wants to eat stool. All right. Give him the body of a hog." Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The yantra, the body is supplied by māyā under the order. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate (BG 9.10). Everything is there. But these things they do not preach. They preach unnecessarily nonviolence. From Bhagavad-gītā, which is being taught in the battlefield, and Gandhi wants to draw some meaning—nonviolence. Immediately it is, what is the value? Not only Gandhi. Everyone. If he can give a new interpretation... I think in Bombay, was there any Dr. Reilly? He wrote some Bhagavad-gītā commentary as...

Dr. Patel: I think it's not that Reilly. Not that Reilly, Dr. Reilly, but there is another Reilly in Baroda who taught...

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be.

Room Conversation -- December 31, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And commentary, interpretation required when you cannot understand. It is very easy and still these rogues will exploit and mislead people. This is... And perhaps, this is the first time I am pointing out. Before that nobody did.

Dr. Patel: And you wrote I have read your commentary twice and it has become very harsh on those people.

Prabhupāda: I must be. They are doing wrong thing. They are doing great harm to the... They are misleading the... If I become little more powerful, I shall do it more harshly. I did not show because I was non-entity. But I knew it. Now people are taking me little seriously, I am talking. (break) In the beginning I thought, Who will hear me? Better wait for the time. Therefore I wrote Mahatma Gandhi, that "Now you have got your svarāja. Please come, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā. You have..." If he would have given the chance at that time, then long ago this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would have been started.