Because you cannot develop devotional service without pious life. Yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpam. If you want to become associate with Kṛṣṇa, then you cannot act as a sinful man. Just like a criminal is not allowed to come out of the jail. He has no freedom. Similarly, if we act sinfully in this life, then we'll have to remain within this material world, one body after another. So we, we have to give up sinful activities. Therefore we forbid our students, no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. Because these are the pillars of sinful life. So we have to give up these things to accelerate our promotion to devotional service. We cannot go on doing this and that at the same time. It is something like that, you ignite fire and pour water. It will be useless attempt. If you want to burn the fire blazing, don't put water on it. Keep it dry. Similarly, if you want to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you cannot indulge in sinful activities. And when you are proved that you are no more sinful, yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpam, one who has become freed from the reaction of sinful life, yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmāṇi...
Freedom (Lectures, Other)
Expressions researched:
"freedom"
Lectures
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for turning everyone to become a pure Vaiṣṇava. Pure Vaiṣṇava. That is the actual aim of human life. As we are discussing this morning, mumukṣavaḥ. The aim of human life is to get out of the clutches of māyā, repetition of birth and death and transmigration from body to another. That is the real aim of life. That is real freedom. So if we neglect this opportunity, then we are called ātma-hā. Ātma-hā means committing suicide. Just like a person, knowingly, knowingly committing suicide, cutting his throat, similarly, a human being, getting so much opportunity, especially in India... We have got so many books of knowledge, especially the Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Vedānta-sūtra. Vedānta-sūtra means Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is explicit narration of the Vedānta-sūtra. Bhāṣyaṁ brahma-sūtrānām **. So Indians especially should take advantage of this human form of life and spread this knowledge all over the world. Then the whole world will be peaceful and happy.
We are under the control of the material nature. Everyone can realize it. Nobody can be free. But the process of freedom is also stated there: Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā, mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 7.14). If anyone takes to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, surrenders there, and be engaged in His service, then these laws of nature will be slackened, or almost nil. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). These are the statements of the śāstras. Laws of material nature means karma. You act in a certain way and you get the result, good or bad; that is called karma. Sat-karma or asat-karma. Actually everything is asat-karma. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). So even taking, accepting that good work is nice, but it is also bondage. Suppose you give in charity. So the laws of nature is that if you give one by charity, you get four. So now to accept that four, you have to take birth again. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, karma-kāṇḍa jñāna-kāṇḍa sakali viṣera bandha. Karma-kāṇḍa means if you act very piously, next life you get good birth, good opulence, money, janma iśvarya-śruta, good education, beautiful body.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
You are not forbidden to enjoy. Just like we say that illicit sex relation not ordered, not allowed. You should take it because it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi aham: "The sex desire which is sanctioned by religion, that is I am." That is Kṛṣṇa. Sex desire to fulfill—it does not mean that like cat, we are free. What is this freedom? That freedom has cats and dogs. They are so free that on the road they have sexual intercourse. You have not so much freedom. You have to find out a parlor, er, apartment. So do you want that is freedom? This is not freedom. This is, I mean to say, going to hell. This is not freedom. Therefore Vedic literatures enjoins that if you want sex life, then you become householder. You marry a nice girl, and then you have got very good responsibility. This, this concession, sex life, is allowed so that you have to serve the all others. That is the responsibility. Now there are four divisions of social order—brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. The brahmacārī does not, I mean to say, earn anything.
Because we have tried, we have taken the opportunity to live independently, Kṛṣṇa or the Paramātmā is so kind that He has given... Just like a child is playing, and sometimes he is going to catch the fire, and the parents are obstructing, similarly, Kṛṣṇa, being the supreme father, He is always guiding. Although we are given the freedom to enjoy this material world, but without His sanction, you cannot enjoy, you cannot touch anything. But He is giving the facilities. Because kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare, we wanted to enjoy, to lord it over this material world, He has given us chance, "All right, enjoy. Enjoy to your best capacity." But He is witnessing. Witnessing means you want something, Kṛṣṇa is supplying. The material agent, Kṛṣṇa's prakṛti, or the material nature is supplying you ingredients. But Kṛṣṇa is sanctioning, and you are desiring. You are desiring, "I want this." Kṛṣṇa says, "No, you will not be happy," but you insist: "No. I want this." "All right. You take this." Kṛṣṇa's material energy is there; He is supplying the ingredients. "All right. Take these ingredients. What do you want?" "I want a three-hundred-story skyscraper building." "All right. Take it. Take it." The ingredients... The sky... You cannot create the ingredients.
There are so many. Even if you sit down without any offense... Just like you are passing on the street, there is no offense, but from one house all the dogs begin to bark: "Why you are coming here? Why you are coming here?" There was no cause of his barking, but because it is dog, his business is "Why you are coming, why you are coming?" Similarly, we have no freedom to go from one place to another at present moment. There is immigration department: "Why you are coming? Why you are coming?" In many places we have been refused to enter. We have been refused from the airplane. "No, you cannot enter, go back." So I had to go back. So, so many disadvantages. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām (SB 10.14.58). In this material world, you cannot live very peacefully. Not very; not peacefully at all. There are so many impediments. The śāstra says, padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām: every step there is danger. Not only from these lower animals, but from the human society, by nature, on which we have no control.
Suppose one man worships a demigod and asks some benefit. Oh, demigod will ask the Lord, Supreme Lord. Or, in another sense, the demigods also do not know, because they are also living entities like us. But īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is so kind that this person, this particular man, is wanting something, "All right, give him. Give him." Kṛṣṇa is... This is freedom. There is no argument, "Oh, why Kṛṣṇa has arranged like this?" He arranges out of His causeless mercy. He can say, He can stop asking the individual soul. But He does not do that. Why He shall do? Then there is no meaning of independence. "All right, you want it? I have arranged it. Take it. Take." So He asks the demigod, "All right, he's asking from you? Give him. Give." So this is going on.
So therefore there are different kinds of literature because there are different kinds of people. But the ultimate literature is, the substance of all Vedic literature is the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Now God's manifestation, fullest manifestation, is at Vṛndāvana. Fullest manifestation. Full freedom. In Kṛṣṇa, when He's at Vṛndāvana, He has full freedom. Now there was a question: When rāsa-līlā..., Kṛṣṇa performed rāsa-līlā. So Mahārāja Parīkṣit, he questioned. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was hearing the description of rāsa-līlā from Śukadeva Gosvāmī. So he cleared out one question which is generally discussed about the character of Kṛṣṇa because He enjoyed these rāsa-līlā pastimes at dead of night, He played on His flute and all the gopīs of Vṛndāvana, they came into the forest and they had the rāsa dance. So Mahārāja Parīkṣit, or King Parīkṣit, inquired to his teacher, Śukadeva Goswami, that Kṛṣṇa is on this earth, He appeared on this earth for paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, dharma saṁsthāpanārthāya... Dharma saṁsthāpanārthāya (BG 4.8), just to establish the process of religiosity. And India at least, still, the Vedic principle is that a, a lady or a girl who is especially married, or unmarried, she cannot mix with any other men. So that is against religious principles.
So we have to rectify ourself. Unless we approach to the spiritual stage... That is the process. Just like a diseased man, he cannot imitate the healthy man. A healthy man eats as he likes, but a diseased man, if he eats as he likes, he'll die. Death is sure. So he has to be restricted, not the healthy man. So if you want really happiness, if you want really freedom, and if you really want everything is reality, then you have to transfer yourself to the spiritual world, in association with Kṛṣṇa. That is the whole process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And for that purpose, just like a student for getting a degree in the university, he, I mean to say, tolerates all kinds of inconveniences—"Never mind. Let me pass and go away"—similarly, we have to make use, the best use of this bad bargain, this material body, and continue in Kṛṣṇa consciousness just to achieve the highest perfection of life, freedom, love. This is the process. And if we imitate... The same example. If we, in diseased state, if we imitate a healthy man's activities, then death is sure. Death is sure.
Very nice. In this way we are being kicked up. The freedom of football. The football is kicked from this party and thrown to the other party. The other party kicks and it comes. The football thinks... If the football thinks that "I am in freedom movement," so what is that freedom? Kicked from this party to that party and that... So here the same thing is said, kāma-krodhera dāsa hañā tāra lāthi khāya. Just like the football players—the football is under the kicking method of two parties—similarly, we are under the kicking method of two things, lust and anger. We are lusty, and when our lust is not fulfilled, then we become kicked by anger. Two things. Just like the football is kicked by this party and that party, similarly, our position is we are being kicked sometimes by lust and sometimes by anger. So we are going on leading our life in this way.
Festival Lectures
If we agree. Kṛṣṇa does not interfere with your little independence. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Kṛṣṇa say to Arjuna, "Whatever you like, you can do." That independence we have got.
So out of that independence we have come to this material world, to enjoy freely. So Kṛṣṇa has given us freedom, "You can enjoy freely." And we are trying to do that. But the result is that we are becoming entangled. We are given the freedom to work in this material world. Everyone is trying to become the master of the material world. Nobody is trying to become the servant. Only we, the Vaiṣṇavas, we are trying to become servant. The karmīs and jñānīs, they do not like to become servant. They criticize us that "You Vaiṣṇavas, you have got slave mentality." Yes, we have got the slave menta... Caitanya Mahāprabhu has taught, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). That is our position. What is the use of claiming artificially, "I am master"? If I had been master, then why the fan is required? I am servant of this influence of summer season. Similarly, I shall be servant in the winter season, too much cold.
Please help me to get something." Now, what is Kṛṣṇa's position? (laughter) Kṛṣṇa is everyone's heart. So Kṛṣṇa has to satisfy so many prayers. The burglar and the thief and the householder, so many prayers. So Kṛṣṇa's adjustment... But He's still... That is Kṛṣṇa's intelligence, how He adjusts. He gives everyone freedom. And everyone is given facilities, but still He's in botheration. Therefore Kṛṣṇa advises to his devotees that "Don't plan anything. You rascal, you nonsense, you don't give Me trouble. (laughter) Please surrender unto Me. Just go under My plan; you'll be happy. You are making plan, you are unhappy; I am also unhappy. I am also unhappy. (laughter) So many plans are coming daily, and I'll have to fulfill." But He's merciful. If a... Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs... (BG 4.11).
Arrival Addresses and Talks
Otherwise, simply on material understanding, it is very difficult to understand what is spiritual life or spiritual platform. But there is. We can simply feel like that at the present moment, but there is a spiritual world, spiritual life. And what is that spiritual life? Complete freedom. Complete freedom. Eternity, blissful and full of knowledge. That is spiritual life. Completely distinct from this bodily concept of life. Spiritual life means eternity, blissful life of knowledge. And this material life means nonpermanent, ignorance and full of miseries. This body means it will not stay and it is always full of miserable condition. And there is no blissfulness. Always in the material (life) we have got some kind of unhappiness. But on account of our long association with this material life we have become so dull-headed that it is very difficult to understand what is spiritual life, what are spiritual activities, what is spiritual world, what is God, what is our relationship with Him.
Initiation Lectures
And the śāstra injunction is, as soon as one gives up this ceremony, garbhādhāna ceremony, he at once falls down to the classification of a śūdra. The whole family, no more. Because who knows by whom this child is born? Nobody knows whether he's a brāhmaṇa's son or a śūdra's son or a rascal's son or a paṇḍita's son. Because there is so much freedom.
So kalau śūdra-sambhava. Therefore the general enunciation is that in this age everyone has to be accepted as born-śūdra. But this principle is accepted always, by birth everyone is śūdra. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ. Everyone is born śūdra. Then? Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Dvijaḥ means this saṁskāra. This saṁskāra... By gradual process of cultivation of knowledge, of behavior, of rules and regulations, one becomes a dvijaḥ. Dvijaḥ means twice-born. The first birth is by the father and mother, and the second birth is by the spiritual master and Vedic knowledge.
Jaya-gopāla: When one is fully engaged in transcendental loving service, how is freedom of choice playing a part in your..., in choice of service? Does one have a choice? Like when Kṛṣṇa completely takes over one's life.
Prabhupāda: I do not follow what you said. (break) (chanting of Bhaja bhakata) One line is missing. Puruṣottama, you have taught them? (referring to ārati song) Thank you. That's all right. Now you learn it, it will be all right. Now you can take prasādam. Hare Kṛṣṇa. In this way one or two, practice daily, then it will come out nice. Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) take prasādam, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (ārati song) Loudly.
Yes, this initiation is not canvassing. We don't canvass that "You become our disciple." Anyone who understands, "Oh, this is very nice," if he comes, "Swamijī, initiate me," he is welcome. But there is no canvassing or selling the mantra. No. We have no such business. We give everyone freedom to hear this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra without any charges. We go from door to door, street to street: "Hear and be purified." And if anyone wants to be intimately associated with us, we welcome. But we don't canvass. That is no use. If I artificially ask somebody that "You become initiated and...," no, that will not stand. One must willingly come. Therefore, as a general principle, we distribute this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. But if we find somebody reluctant, then we become callous. We don't mind. There are many others. Then?
So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... They are trying to go to the nature. Just like there is a propaganda, nature means to become animal. They live like animals, naked. They have sex life on the street. They say it is freedom. But the rascals do not know there is no freedom at all. Where is freedom? So long you are under the grip of material nature, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), where is freedom? By nature does not mean that you have got freedom. There is no freedom. We are all conditioned. Simply falsely we are thinking of freedom. It requires little brain. Where is freedom? Nobody wants to die, and where is the freedom not to die? Who has got the freedom? Nobody wants to become old, and where is the freedom? Everyone becomes old. But I have got the desire. Even old man, old woman tries to remain young by cosmetic help, to be good looking, and where is the freedom? By nature he is becoming bad looking. So there is no freedom. It is false idea, freedom. Nobody wants to die; death is sure. (aside:) He's sleeping. Nobody wants to become old; he's becoming old.
Nobody wants to take birth... Of course, that is very higher stage. Jñānī, they want mukti; that is also not possible. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19)? To stop death, to stop birth, is not possible unless one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless one (sic) does not come to the position of loving Kṛṣṇa, there's no question of freedom. That is the nature's law. We have forgotten Kṛṣṇa. Instead of loving Kṛṣṇa, we have habituated, we have developed a consciousness to love dog. Just like in your country they say, "Dog is the best friend." So instead of loving God, they have learned to love dog. But nature ways is that you have to forget loving dog, you have to come to the position to love God. That is nature's way. Therefore there is no freedom. There is no freedom. Just like a citizen becomes criminal. The criminal department, the prison, just to correct him: "Unless you become a good citizen, you'll have to be punished in this prison house."
So instead of loving God, they have learned to love dog. But nature ways is that you have to forget loving dog, you have to come to the position to love God. That is nature's way. Therefore there is no freedom. There is no freedom. Just like a citizen becomes criminal. The criminal department, the prison, just to correct him: "Unless you become a good citizen, you'll have to be punished in this prison house." Similarly, our real position is to love God, to love Kṛṣṇa. Unless we are on that platform of loving God, the nature will give us trouble. There is no freedom. We should try to understand it. There's no question of freedom.
So I am also there, and Supersoul is also there. So, the Supersoul's business is to witness: anumantā, upadraṣṭā. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gī... The Supersoul is simply observing what I am doing, and he is the supreme witness, upadraṣṭā. And anumantā. As I desire... Not according to my desire, but because I desire I have been given the freedom to desire. But without the sanction of the Supersoul I cannot do anything.
Just like a child; a child is persisting, crying, "Father, I must have. Give me." Father does not like to give him that undesirable thing, but because the child persists in crying, making disturbance, then my father says, "All right, you take." That is father's mercy. "Oh, why this child is crying? Let him have it. That's all." We have got practical experience. So, I may recite that in my younger days when my eldest son was only two years and half, so, he was trying to catch the table fan—the table fan was moving—so I was resisting(?), "No, don't touch." But he insisted, a child.
"I don't take shelter of hell or heaven. I take shelter of Kṛṣṇa." A devotee does not discriminate what is hell or what is heaven. Nārāyaṇa-parāḥ sarve na kaścana na bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). One who is Nārāyaṇa parāḥ, devotee, he doesn't care for what is hell or heaven. Svargāpavarga-narakeṣu api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ. A devotee... Just like Nārada: he goes to hell, he goes to heaven. He has got freedom to go everywhere. Tulyārtha-darśinaḥ. For him, there is no hell, there is no heaven. He's preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness wherever he goes. That's all. He has nothing to do. Just like we went to that Savarmati jail in Ahmedabad. We were received by the jail authorities, where Gandhi was put into jail. Who was with me in that...? You were... You were also there. No. So we went to jail. There, they made very good arrangement. The prisoners, they received us, they chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So it was a good function. So we want to, went to jail. But what we have got to do with the jail?
Wedding Ceremonies
This material world we have to pass through many circumstances, but sometimes, even it is intolerable, we have to tolerate. So according to Hindu conception of life, even there is some misunderstanding between husband and wife, it is not taken very seriously. Never taken very seriously. But in your country, in the name of liberty and freedom, there are so many things. I do not wish to discuss all those things. But according to Vedic system, husband and wife, united together, there cannot be any separation. Perhaps you have heard the name of Mahatma Gandhi. He was married when he was student, sixteen years old, and his wife was also of the same age. Later on Mahatma Gandhi became a very famous man. So one day there was husband and wife quarrel. So Mahatma Gandhi, he has written in his own biography, he drove away the wife: "You get out from my house." So the wife got out of the house and was crying in the street, "Where shall I go?" And again Mahatma Gandhi went there, "Come on."
General Lectures
Again servant.
So this is our position. But why this struggle is there? I am being forced to serve, but I don't wish to serve. What is the adjustment? The adjustment is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that if you become servant of Kṛṣṇa, then your aspiration to become master, at the same time your aspiration of freedom, is immediately achieved. Just like here you'll see one picture of Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. Arjuna is a living entity, living being, a human being, but he is in love with Kṛṣṇa as friend. And in exchange of his friendly love, Kṛṣṇa has become his driver, his servant. Similarly, if every one of us, we become reinstated in the transcendental platform of loving Kṛṣṇa, then our aspiration of mastership will be fulfilled. That is not known at present, but if we agree to serve Kṛṣṇa, then gradually we'll see that Kṛṣṇa is serving you. That is a question of realization. But if we want to get out of this service of this material world, of the senses, then we must transfer our service attitude to Kṛṣṇa. This is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Sometimes it is covered by water and sometimes it is open land. This is marginal. Similarly, we spirit souls, although we are constitutionally one with God, but sometimes we are covered by māyā and sometimes we are free. Therefore our position is marginal. When we understand our real position, then... The same... Just like the same example. Try to understand. On the beach you'll find a certain portion of land which is sometimes covered by water, and again it is land. Similarly we are sometimes covered by māyā, the inferior energy, and sometimes we are free. So we have to maintain that free state. Just like in open land, there is no more water. If you come little far away from the sea water, then there is no more water; it is all land. Similarly, if you keep yourself from the material consciousness, come to the land of spiritual consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you keep your freedom. But if you keep yourself on the marginal position, then sometimes you'll be covered by māyā and sometimes you'll be free. So that is our position. (aside:) Go on.
You have come here by your individual will. Nobody has forced you. If you like, you can go. Somebody comes here, somebody never comes, somebody comes daily. Why? Even you are small, you have got individuality. Even in this conditioned state, you are so free, so much free. And when you are unconditioned, purely spirit, you do not know how much freedom you have got. It doesn't matter you are small, but you are a spiritual spark. Don't you see that a small spiritual spark which no physician, no medical science has still discovered, where is the soul, but the soul is there. That is a fact. As soon as the soul is gone from this body, it is useless. Find out what is that important particle. That is not possible, because it is so small that your, with these material eyes or microscope or any scope you cannot find out. Therefore they say there is no soul. But they cannot explain what is gone. Even that small particle of spiritual soul is so powerful that as long as it is within this body, it keeps it fresh, nice, beautiful.
Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda, I read in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Volume Three, that when one becomes a liberated soul, he attains perfect freedom, and even sometimes that freedom is on the same level as Kṛṣṇa or even more than Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Madhudviṣa: Can you explain that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this Vasudeva, he's more than Kṛṣṇa. Yaśodā, you have seen the picture? Yaśodā is binding Kṛṣṇa.
Madhudviṣa: Oh, the little baby. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, He has become... The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is, I mean to say, afraid, who is fearful by everyone, Yaśodā..., and Kṛṣṇa has become fearful to Yaśodā: "My dear mother, kindly do not bind Me. I shall obey your orders." So Yaśodā has become more than God, more than Kṛṣṇa. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they want to be one with Kṛṣṇa or one with Lord, but our philosophy is to become more than Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Why one with Kṛṣṇa? More than Kṛṣṇa. And actually He accepts. He makes His devotee more than Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa took the part of a driver, and he was the hero of the fight. Actually, Kṛṣṇa was the hero, but He gave position to His devotee: "You become the hero, I shall become your charioteer." That's all.
Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a stage after liberation. Brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ means "I am now free from all material anxieties." That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Just like a person suffering prison life for years together, and if he is given freedom, "Now you are free," how much delight he'll feel. "Oh, now I am free." You see? So that is the stage of brahma-bhūtaḥ. Prasannātmā, joyful, immediately. And what is the nature of joyfulness? Na śocati. Even in the great loss, there is no lamentation. And big profit, there is no jubilation, or there is no hankering. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Equipoised.
If somebody comes to kill them, government immediately calls for military or police to protect them. But because they are condemned, they are put into the prison. Similarly, all living entities, they are children, they are sons of God. So God is giving them all protection. Kṛṣṇa is giving them all protection. But by misuse of their little freedom, they are misusing, they are misusing their liberty. Therefore they are put into this material world. Otherwise, generally, the protection is there. Any other questions?
Yes, try to understand clearly this philosophy. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). These things are required. You should try to understand the transcendental subject. First of all surrender, praṇipāta. Then paripraśna. You cannot question if you are not surrendered. Just like the other day one rascal was asking—he is not a surrendered soul—"Swamijī, you know Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Just see. So this is not the process of question. One must surrender.
The hint is given there that in the sky of freedom, in the spiritual sky, there is no need of sunshine. That is the distinction. Try to understand. This is also confirmed in the Upaniṣads. In the spiritual sky there is no need of sunshine, there is no need of moonshine, there is no need of electricity, because everything is shining there, all Brahman effulgence. And as we have got one huge planet here, the sun planet, which is efful..., effulgent, dazzling, bright, in the spiritual sky all the planets are like that. So therefore, there is no question of darkness. Darkness is here. So you try to understand that there is a spiritual sky. That is not like this sky where we experience darkness. Now we are experiencing at night... Night means we are experiencing darkness; therefore we require this electricity or moonlight or sunlight. But the Vedas say, tamasi mā: "Don't remain in this darkness." Jyotir gamaḥ: "Go, just try to reach that system, that planetary system, where everything is dazzling, bright."
Prabhupāda: Not believe. Is practical.
Student (2): And I think the reason I don't believe that is because history has told me differently. History has told me that people who have managed to achieve freedom for themselves have not achieved it by doing something like chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. And I refer you to...
Prabhupāda: You can show in the history there was chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa? Is there any history?
Student (2): I won't say chanting only Hare Kṛṣṇa, but give you a similar time and place.
Prabhupāda: What is that similar time?
There are so many things. If you like, you take it; if you don't like, you don't take it. There is no enforcement. Every individual soul has got little independence. Not full independence. That can be used properly; that can be misused also. That depends on me. I am the master. So similarly... Just like the government. The government does not force anybody to go to the criminal department, neither government forces anybody to come to the university department. It is your individual liberty. You become criminal or a high standard scholar. (break) ...has to make his choice. He has got the freedom. He may be Kṛṣṇa conscious or he may be material conscious. If he's material conscious, he'll never be happy. If he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, he'll be always happy. Now it is up to you whether to accept this or that.
It is very easy to understand. Although you are proprietor of the business, you cannot do anything without being permitted by the government. Similarly, although this body is yours, you are the proprietor of this body, you have been given freedom to utilize the body to your best interest, still, you cannot do anything without the permission of Kṛṣṇa.
That is the subject matter to understand spiritual life. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi... Kṛṣṇa confirms this in Bhagavad-gītā, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo: (BG 15.15) "I am entered in everyone's body." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: "Through Me, one remembers and one forgets." Because our capacity is very limited. We forget very soon. Even we do not know two hours before, what we were doing. That is our nature. Therefore Kṛṣṇa helps us from within. Even though we forget, Kṛṣṇa does not forget. That is also there in the Bhagavad-gītā. When Arjuna asked Him, "Kṛṣṇa, You say that You gave instruction on Bhagavad-gītā long, long ago, some forty thousands of millions of years ago to sun-god.
This is going on. But actually our position is not to lord it over. Our position is to be lorded by the Lord. That is our position, actually. If you don't agree to be predominated by the Supreme Lord, then you shall be predominated by other agent, other energy, the material energy. I met one great professor in Moscow. The subject matter was freedom, Communism. So my last question was that "You people, Communists, you have surrendered to Lenin, and we have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. Then where is the difference? You have selected a personality like Lenin or Stalin or Marx. We have selected a personality, Kṛṣṇa. Now, so far the principle of surrender is concerned, it is there in Communism and our Vaiṣṇavism. Now it has to be seen whether Kṛṣṇa is good or Lenin or good. That is a different question." So actually we are trying to be free, but we surrender to some rascal, that's all. Instead of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa we prefer to surrender to some rascal or fool. That is māyā. We have to surrender. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109).
One thing is that nobody can understand God if he is sinful. But Kṛṣṇa says, God says, that "You surrender unto Me. I shall help you how to get rid of the resultant action of your sinful life." So to approach God, either you become sinless by your own efforts or you simply surrender unto God, and He will help you to become sinless. Whichever you like. He is giving full freedom. He is asking that you surrender. He is not forcing. God can force you—He is all-powerful—but He doesn't interfere with your independence. Because we are part and parcel of God—God is fully independent—so we have got also little particle of independence. As soon as we misuse that independence, disobey the words of God, we become sinful.
That is our plea. We are imploring everyone. If you think that there are many objection, "If I keep one picture of Kṛṣṇa or I offer Him something, fruits and flowers," all right, don't do that. But what is the objection if you chant? You have got freedom, Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all right, simply Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.
The point is that we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is; therefore I am representative of Kṛṣṇa. If you do that, you become also representative of Kṛṣṇa. So it is not very difficult. Don't think it is a very hard job: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so great personality, God, and how one can become His representative?" No. Anyone can become His representative provided he follows the Kṛṣṇa's instruction. That's all. Anyone. Actually they are doing that. They are representative. Not only I, but they are also. Every one of our members, they are Kṛṣṇa's representative. They are not trying to malinterpret. As there are so many so-called scholars... When this verse is translated and commented upon by big scholar... I do not wish to utter his name. He is very big man. But now he is living dead. Because he has committed so many offenses, now he is living, but he has lost his memory. Very recently I went to see him. He cannot... He is like that.
No, the universe, this material world, is created by God. That's a fact. But if the question is that whether God has created this body for suffering in this material world, that is not God's creation; that is our creation. Just like the government creates the prison house. That does not mean that government wants that somebody should be criminals and fill up this prison house. It is a freedom to the citizens. Government creates university also, or government creates prison house also. But it is your freedom. You make your choice: either you go to the university or you go to the prison house. It is your choice. Just like government opens some liquor shop, gives license. That does not mean that government is encouraging drinking. The liquor shop is there. Those who are drunkards, they can go. That's a facility. That's all. Otherwise, that is not encouragement. Similarly, the... When God created this material world... I think in your Bible also it is said that the Adam and Eve, the forbidden apple... That means He made some rules and regulations, "Do this; do not this." And if you do this, what is not sanctioned, then you suffer. God forbade not to eat the apple—I do not know actually—but by the request of Eve, Adam ate it, and he became conditioned.
They dip here and they rise there. These are yogic powers.
So we have got immense independence, but we are now conditioned by this body. Therefore in the human form of life it is an opportunity to get back our original independence. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Freedom. When we have got our spiritual body, without being covered by this material body... We have got our spiritual body within this material body. Very small. That is my real identification. Now I'm covered by two kinds of material bodies. One is called subtle body and the other is called gross body. The subtle body is made of mind, intelligence and ego, false ego, and the gross body is made of earth, water, fire, air and ether mixed together, this body. So two kinds of body we have got. And we are changing. Generally we can see the gross body; we cannot see the subtle body. Just like everyone knows... I know that you have got your mind. I know that you have got intelligence. You know I have got mind, I have got intelligence. But I cannot see your mind, I cannot see your intelligence. I cannot see your determination. I cannot see your thoughts, thinking, feeling and willing. Similarly, you cannot see.
It is very easy to understand. Although you are proprietor of the business, you cannot do anything without being permitted by the government. Similarly, although this body is yours—you are the proprietor of this body, you have been given freedom to utilize the body to your best interest—still, you cannot do anything without the permission of Kṛṣṇa. That is the subject matter to understand spiritual life. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi... Kṛṣṇa confirms this in Bhagavad-gītā. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo: (BG 15.15) "I am entered in everyone's body." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: "Through Me, one remembers and one forgets." Because our capacity is very limited. We forget very soon. Even we do not know two lours before what we were doing. So that is our nature. Therefore Kṛṣṇa helps us from within. Even though we forget, Kṛṣṇa does not forget. That is also there in the Bhagavad-gītā. When Arjuna asked Him, "Kṛṣṇa, You say that You gave instruction on Bhagavad-gītā long, long ago, some forty thousands of millions of years ago, to sun-god. How can I believe it, because we are contemporary?" So Kṛṣṇa answered, "Yes, at that time you were also present, but you have forgotten. I have not forgotten." That is the distinction between ordinary living being and the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being is also nitya.
Prabhupāda: But that is your statement. But the Bible statement, Bhagavad-gītā statement is different. Why shall I take you as authority?
Jyotirmayī: (translating) He says that God means freedom, and God will not be...
Prabhupāda: How do you know it? First of all let me know how you know it about God that He is freedom or this or that. How you know it?
Jyotirmayī: (translating) "Because everyone has inside him knowledge of God, and one just has to listen within himself and he will know."
Prabhupāda: So I have got my own knowledge of God as you have got. Why you disagree with me?
Jyotirmayī: (translating) He says but he doesn't sit on a throne and he doesn't ask people to pay obeisances in front of him.
Prabhupāda: So if you want to hear me, I can get down from the throne. (big applause and yells) (some man makes an announcement in French) (general talk in French and many people yelling things out from the audience)
We are conditioned in every step by the laws of material nature. Still, foolishly we are thinking we are free. This is foolishness. We are so much controlled by the material nature, exactly like a small child is pulled by the ear by its mother. "Come here"—he comes here. "Go there." Just like a dog. A dog may feel very freedom jumping, but as soon as the master says, "Come here," he comes and immediately chained. This is our position.
So that is our position, that we are completely under the clutches of material nature, and according to the modes of material nature, we are acting and changing our body in different species of life. So our real business in this human form of life is to get, try to accept the process by which we can get free from this conditioned life. The process is that we have to give up all our false consciousness. We are under false consciousness. I am thinking, "I am Indian," you are thinking you are German, and the dog is thinking, "I am dog," and cat is thinking, "I am cat." So this bodily consciousness, bodily concept of life, will keep us conditioned within the material nature. Therefore our first business is how to get free from all these designations.
So we are praying to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy. If we pray to Kṛṣṇa's energy, she is Kṛṣṇa's energy, she will understand, "Now, he is now correct." So she gives facilities. She gives facilities, "Yes, now you can serve Kṛṣṇa. I give you... I give you freedom. You are no more under my clutches." Māyām etāṁ taranti te. Immediately you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you are immediately liberated. We haven't got to search out liberation separately. Immediately surrender to Kṛṣṇa, immediately you are liberated, immediately, simultaneous. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). At that time māyā takes another feature. That is called yoga-māyā. The same māyā Just like the same government laws acting in the prison house differently, and acting in the university differently. But the potency is the same. If we take protection of the civil laws, then you are happy. And if we take protection of the criminal laws then you are unhappy. That's all. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that you have to take shelter of one of the potencies of Kṛṣṇa.
Therefore our request is... This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is specially meant for this purpose, that do not try to be overlord of Kṛṣṇa. Don't speak anything manufactured by you on the plea of Kṛṣṇa speaking. If you want to speak something, good or nonsense, you can speak. Everyone has got the freedom to speak about his philosophy, about his thesis. But why through Kṛṣṇa? Why through Bhagavad-gītā? This is our protest. Let Kṛṣṇa speak Himself as He is and as He wants. Why should you speak by malinterpretation? That is the practice now, that everyone can interpret Bhagavad-gītā as he likes. Then where is the authority of Bhagavad-gītā? Can you interpret the law given by the government in your own way? That is not possible. Similarly, if Kṛṣṇa is accepted, He's accepted actually. (aside:) Find out this verse, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Tenth Chapter.
Philosophy Discussions
Śyāmasundara: He says that because God has freedom of will, God decided it would be best to give man such freedom of will.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because every living entity is part and parcel of God, although very minute portion, similarly proportionately, he has minute proportion of freedom of will. Not absolute. That is natural. Every man has got a little freedom of will, but it is not absolute. A man cannot will as he likes. That is not possible. Therefore it is said, "Man proposes; God disposes." Although the freedom of will is there, it is subordinate to the freedom of will of God. You cannot fulfill your desire unless it is sanctioned and approved by God.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the fact that there is more good than evil in this world justifies its creation.
Śyāmasundara: So his third antimony is the causal, or relation (?) of the world. He says, first of all, thesis: "Causality in conformity with laws of nature is not the only causality from which all the phenomena of the world can be derived. To explain these phenomena it is necessary to suppose that there is also a free causality." And the antithesis is, "There is no freedom, but all that comes to be in the world takes place entirely in accordance with laws of nature." So on the one hand he is saying that sometimes we observe an exception to the laws of causality, that something happens which is completely uncaused or unexplainable, so that there must be no such thing as a strict law of cause and effect.
Prabhupāda: No. There is, strictly. He cannot explain—you do not know—but there must be some cause. Therefore ultimate cause is Kṛṣṇa, or God.
Śyāmasundara: Sometimes when there is some aberration...
Śyāmasundara: He comes to that point in a way by saying that he has limited all that we can know to mere phenomena, and he has therefore found it necessary to deny knowledge of God, freedom and immortality in order to find a place for faith. In other words, he says that through the reason and the senses we cannot know anything about God, soul, immortality or freedom, so the rest has to be done by faith.
Prabhupāda: No. Faith, that is a compromise, you see. That is not fact. But this is good that he admits that we cannot approach the final God by our senses or reason. To have faith, that is also not perfect. Therefore the Western philosophers, they have created different faiths, and religion means faith. Somebody may believe in some faith, others may believe in another faith. But that is not factual. The factual is this: if we are actually convinced that there is God, and God is omnipotent, so by His omnipotency He descends. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). "Whenever there is discrepancies in the process of religious principles," abhyutthānam adharmasya tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham, "when people become irreligious, at that time I descend." He descends for two reasons: paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8), for relief of the devotees.
Hayagrīva: Immanuel Kant. Being a son of the Enlightenment, Kant strongly advocated the right and duty of every man to judge for himself in religious and secular matters. Indeed, he considered the motto of the Enlightenment to be, "Have courage to make use of your own intellect." The emphasis here is on individual freedom and on the ability of man to intuit the truth.
Prabhupāda: Does it mean that anyone, whatever he does, that is perfectly right? If he is given that freedom, then anyone will do anything as he likes. So it will be taken as...
Hayagrīva: Well he, at the same time, he considered the Bible to be the best vehicle for the instruction of the public in a truly moral religion.
Prabhupāda: Then he has to accept some authority. Where is freedom?
Hayagrīva: He believed that the individual can intuit truths within, but could be helped from without by scripture.
Hayagrīva: He maintains that certain knowledge of God's existence would destroy a man's freedom and reduce human experience to a show of puppets frantically currying the favor of the Almighty.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is favor. Just like nobody wants to die, but the superior power obliges everyone to die. So he is dependent. Why should you think that he is independent? That is foolishness.
Hayagrīva: He sees uncertainty as a necessary ingredient for faith.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Hayagrīva: Uncertainty is a necessary ingredient for faith.
Hayagrīva: For Kant, the true religion is the divine ethical state. He is..., he was fond of quoting the Christian Bible. When Christ was demanded of the Pharisees when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, 'Lo here' or 'Lo there,' for behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Now Kant footnotes this passage by saying, "Here a kingdom of God is represented not according to a particular covenant, but moral, knowable through assisted reason." So again he insists on the priority of God within, on the priority of ethical action and the freedom to accept ethical action. And this is epitomized in his famous line, "The starry sky above and the moral law within." The starry sky above is the abode of God, is very far away, but the moral law within is very close. Thus he emphasizes that the kingdom of God is within you.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If one is actually aware of God and His instructions, then the kingdom of God is within himself.
Śyāmasundara: Does someone who has been in prison and then he becomes free, does he appreciate his freedom more than someone who has always been free?
Prabhupāda: So, that's very easy to understand. You can apply the same thing in your life. That is not very difficult. Everyone can understand.
Śyāmasundara: So to enhance the understanding of freedom is it, if someone...
Prabhupāda: You come to the platform of freedom.
Śyāmasundara: But say one has always been free. His understanding...
Prabhupāda: No, why? So long as we are entrapped by this material body you are not free.
Śyāmasundara: No but for instance, just an example, there is someone who has always been free in the spiritual world and he comes into the material world...
Prabhupāda: Yes. He comes for a mission, just like Kṛṣṇa comes. He is not born. He is not born like a materialist. Similarly Kṛṣṇa's devotee also comes, he is also not born. They come with a mission.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Learned something, has become free; just like Nārada is giving history of his past life to Vyāsadeva. You have not read it, conversation between Nārada and Vyāsadeva? He knows perfectly well that I was a maidservant's son and in this way I have become free. That is freedom. Anyone knows. As soon as he comes to spiritual consciousness, he knows, "Oh, I was this in abominable condition, now I am decent(?) position. (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: So it's in the... Is it good if someone comes to the material world and then they leave? I mean is the fact that they should come here...
Prabhupāda: It is not good. Then where is the question of taking him back to Godhead? It is not good. But if someone falls down somehow or other... But not that those who are coming with a mission, they are fallen down. When the governor goes to the prison house to inspect, it does not mean he's also prisoner. If the prisoners think, "Oh, the governor has come here, therefore he's also one of us." That is not. Therefore it is forbidden, guruṣu nara-matir, you never should think of guru as ordinary man. Guruṣu nara-matir, vaiṣṇave jāti buddhiḥ, arcye śilā-dhīr, if you think that is stone, "Ah, we are worshiping stone," these are forbidden. Actually they are not. Arcye śilā-dhīr, guruṣu nara-mati, vaiṣṇave jāti buddhiḥ.
Śyāmasundara: In this regard, later Śrīla Prabhupāda said that a man who has fever and a man who has never had fever, they enjoy... When the man who has fever recovers he enjoys equally with the man who never had fever. Therefore someone who has fallen into the material world, if he is liberated, he enjoys equally with the man who has never fallen into the material world. Neither he enjoys more, for instance, that he has learned some lesson so therefore he enjoys more his freedom, nor does he enjoy less than the man who has never fallen. (break)
Prabhupāda: Well, everything is the expression of spirit.
Śyāmasundara: So everything is art?
Prabhupāda: Well, what is his definition of art?
Śyāmasundara: He says that the state, I will just read a segment of what he says about the state: "The state is the realization of the ethical idea. The true state is the ethical whole and the realization of freedom. The state is the march of God through the world.
Prabhupāda: March of?
Śyāmasundara: God.
Prabhupāda: God.
Śyāmasundara: Through the world. The state is an organism. The state is real and its reality consists of the interests of the whole being realized in particular ends. The state is the world which the spirit has made for itself. One often speaks of the wisdom of God in nature, but one must not believe that the physical world of nature is higher than the world of spirit. Just as spirit is superior to nature, so the state is superior to the physical life. We must therefore worship the state as the manifestation of the divine on earth.
Prabhupāda: What will be the answer? If you want to worship God, you must worship according to the dictation of God. If you have no such dictation, if you have no idea of God, then how you can worship God? You can worship a ghost, according unto you. If freedom is given to your conception, then you can worship a dog instead of God, because you do not know what is God and what God wants you to do. So without the conception of God, real, how one can worship God by whimsical ideas?
Hayagrīva: This has always been a very touchy subject in the schools.
Prabhupāda: This is the real subject.
Hayagrīva: In the schools, now in the United States, the schools are not even allowed to mention God, not even allowed to mention God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is living force, it must be dynamic. It is not a dead stone. Because it is living force, it must be dynamic. We are all living force, sitting here, we may sit down or we may go away. That nobody can check. Similarly, we are dynamic forces, and God does not interfere with our dynamic force. He allows us, "Do whatever you like." Because if He interferes with our independence, then we are no longer living entities; we become dead stones. So God does not interfere. He gives us full freedom. But at the same time He comes down and instructs us, "But why you are engaged in this foolish activity? Please come to Me, back to home, back to Godhead, (indistinct)."
Śyāmasundara: So if he says that the physical world...
Līlāvatī: Does that mean that the spiritual body changes, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: The evolution is all harmony. Just like from aquatics one has to become insect. From aquatic one has to accept the body of plants and trees, then he has to accept the bodies of insects. This is harmony. Changing is there, but it is in harmony. Now, when one comes to accept the body of human being, then his consciousness is developed. Now he can accept, because he has got greater freedom than the animal, so he has to make his choice whether he is going to stop this evolutionary process or he wants to remain in this evolutionary process. So if he takes instruction of Kṛṣṇa, then he can stop this botheration of evolution, and if he does not take, then he remains. (aside:) Find out this verse, aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya parantapa. What is it?
Hayagrīva: He gives and example that's something similar to the Vedic. He speaks of "a center from which worlds shoot out like rockets in a fireworks display, provided, however, that I do not present this center as a thing but as a continuity of shooting out. God thus defined has nothing of the already made. He, that is God, is unceasing life, action, and freedom."
Prabhupāda: It is just like a wheel. A wheel is rotating. There are spokes, there are rims, there is a hub, and in the center, what is they call that, that supports the hub?
Hayagrīva: Axle.
Prabhupāda: Spindle, axle, axle. So He is the axle. So the round is going on, but He is the center. Everything is going on but He is the center. Aham ādir hi..., what is called? Devānām. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). So the central point is God, and other things are just like a big wheel, and the big wheel has got so many parts. The, it has got the rim, it has got the spokes, it is going in force, but the axle is the same, always in the center.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the demigods? They are also rotting in this material world. So devotees are not concerned how to become a demigod. They do not care. That is said by Prabhodānanda Sarasvatī: vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate. Vidhi means Lord Brahmā, and mahendra means the king of heaven, Indra. So he says, "I think this Brahmā and Indra, Candra, the demigods just like as good as the germs and small insects." He says that. Vidhi-mahendrādiś. You have to attain such a position that you think this Brahmā and Indra and demigods, they are as good as the insects. Vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭa. Kīṭa means a small insect. So actually that is the position. Everyone has got a different type of body according to his karma, either Brahmā's body or ant's body, so he is under material laws. So that is not the position of freedom. One has to become above these material laws. That is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). So anyone who has actually attained that position, what is the importance of Brahmā's body or Indra's body?
Śyāmasundara: He sees this happiness in a communal aspect. It must be for the greatest number. So he advocates a democracy where everyone is given unlimited individual freedom.
Prabhupāda: That is also another nonsense. In democracy nobody is happy. The so-called democracy does not give anyone any happiness. Otherwise in America, the greatest democratic country, why there are so many unhappy people? That also another nonsense. It is not possible.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the interest of the community would be the sum of the interests of the individuals in the community.
Prabhupāda: That is a compromise. That is not happiness, that "You don't harm me, I don't harm you, and we remain happy." That does not mean you are happy, I am happy. These are simply speculate.
Śyāmasundara: He advocates complete individualism and freedom, that everyone should have complete freedom to do...
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That is nonsense. That is nonsense. Nobody has got that.
Śyāmasundara: He says that everyone should be free...
Prabhupāda: Then everyone should be philosopher. He has got his own philosophy. Everyone has got his own philosophy.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that in this way by everyone being free to compete, the best ones will come out.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is not freedom; that is competition.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is not freedom; that is competition.
Śyāmasundara: Competition. But in order to compete, there has to be freedom.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another thing. But nobody is independent. That is our point of view. Everyone is dependent. Somebody is voluntarily dependent on Kṛṣṇa and somebody is by force dependent on māyā. That's all. But he must be dependent.
Śyāmasundara: He says in this way that society should be organized so that there is freedom of belief, freedom to unite, freedom of taste, freedom of competition. But one individual's freedom should not encroach upon another individual's freedom.
Prabhupāda: Then why they are killing? The freedom of the poor animals, why they encroach on the freedom of others? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam (ISO 1). Do not encroach upon others' freedom. That is Vedic injunction. That is nice. But why these people are encroaching upon the freedom of these animals? The birds, they are flying, freedom, the ducks. Why they kill? Encroaching upon other's freedom. Without any harm, the birds are flying, without... If you kill an aggressor then you are right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Providence desires only good. The man, the living being, is in this material world on account of his imperfect will. God is very kind that even though he is willing imperfectly to enjoy this material world God is giving him a directed facilities. Just like a child wants to play in certain way, still the child is guided by some nurse, or some servant by, engaged by the parent. So our position is like that. We have come to this material world to enjoy, giving up the company of God. So God has allowed him, "All right, you enjoy and experience. When you will experience that this material enjoyment is not good, then you will again come back." So He is guiding the enjoyment of the living being, especially of the human being so that he may again come back to home, back to Godhead. And nature is the via media agent, under the instruction of God. So if he (is) too much addicted to misuse the freedom, then he is punished, and that is also according to his desire. It is not God's desire that a human being become a pig, but he develops such mentality to eat everything.
Hayagrīva: Three, he speaks of, "An immense elation, or happiness, and freedom as the outlines of the confining selfhood melt down."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66). This material selfishness is māyā. Actually that is not selfishness. Real selfishness is to know the relationship with God. But persons who are engrossed with the spell of māyā, illusory energy, they do not know that. Mostly, 99.9%, they have vague idea of God, and how they will know the relationship? So, so that our actual business, first business is to have complete idea, complete sense of God and our relationship. That is the business of human life. Therefore in the Vedic process, the real business is realize God. Either you take yoga system or jñāna system, and bhakti is cent percent simply realization of God. That is the business of human life. He hasn't got to do any other thing. That is practical understanding of God. A perfect human being knows that "My necessities of life is supplied by God, so I have no business to improve the economic condition."
Śyāmasundara: So he proposes these three stages of existence. The first one we talked about is the aesthetic stage of noncommitment—simply sense gratification and speculation. The second stage he says that a man makes a leap in commitment and begins to concern himself or involve himself with the world on an ethical level. And the third stage is the religious stage, or self-realization. But in the second stage he says that "The despair of life has lead one to the commitment to make choices, to commit himself to action and to enter into life's involvement and become ethically concerned; that suddenly he's turned within himself and in his passion and freedom and decision or subjectivity, then he begins to find himself."
Prabhupāda: What does he find?
Śyāmasundara: Just like, just like Hitler, they might say, or actually the whole hippie philosophy comes from these men, these existentialists. It's not... It doesn't matter what you do, it's that you do it with conviction, determination, passion, freedom.
Prabhupāda: However foolish it may be. That is nice. (laughter) However foolish it may be, you go on.
Śyāmasundara: They would admire Hitler because at least he stuck to his principles.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They would admire Hitler.
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They would admire Hitler for sticking to his principles and acting upon them.
Prabhupāda: So what happened? Hitler became vanquished. That's all.
Hayagrīva: Schopenhauer's second book was entitled The World Is Will. He writes, "My body is the objectivity of my will. Besides will and idea, nothing is known to us or thinkable. But if we narrowly analyze the reality of this body and its actions, we find nothing in it except the will." And he goes on to state that "The genitals are properly the focus of the will, and consequently the opposite pole of the brain, which is the representative of knowledge. The former, that is the genitals, are the life sustaining principle and share an endless life to time. In this respect they were worshiped by the Greeks in the phallus and by the Hindus in the liṅgam, which are thus the symbol of the assertion of the will. Knowledge, on the other hand, affords the possibility of the suppression of willing, of salvation through freedom, of conquest and annihilation of the world."
Prabhupāda: Therefore that is bhakti. Sarvopādhi, this willing... Why? This willing is (indistinct), because this willing is according to the body. So I get one body and will again, we get another body. So I am willing, but I am. So I have now identified with this willing situation. That is my trouble. When I understand that I have nothing to do with this material world, with this, the production of my will, material will, and I am spiritual, so when I will spiritually, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is wanted. Materially willing means I get different types of body, that's all. That is dream life. But what he says?
Śyāmasundara: Well, you were just saying before that if someone analyzes everything scrutinizingly, they will find out that it is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. But unless they are able to make that analysis, then what is the point of analyzing? Shouldn't we have the freedom to analyze something?
Prabhupāda: Suppose that when he says to analyze, analyze. When he will not take help? (indistinct) analyze.
Śyāmasundara: This is just the first step of his process. There are three steps. The first step is simply to reduce the phenomenon to their self-evident (indistinct)...
Prabhupāda: What is that self-evidence?
Śyāmasundara: ...that it is green, that it grows on trees—those simple things that anyone can see, they're self-evident.
Śyāmasundara: So the Western system of bring up children is artificial, because they allow the child unrestrained freedom either to repress or to enjoy his sex desire.
Prabhupāda: No. That is not predictable.
Śyāmasundara: The Vedic program is a social program.
Prabhupāda: Social, yes. Just like Cāṇakya says. He is an experienced moralist, his ethical laws. He says, (indistinct), if you indulge in freedom, (indistinct) and if you restrict and restrain, that is very, very (indistinct). Therefore one should take care of his disciple and serve by chastising them, not giving them independence.
Śyāmasundara: Freud would say that this system of repression, by saying "Don't do this," is harmful to the child.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) repression of course—his idea of repression is different. Our idea is different. Our repression is you must rise early in the morning, you must attend maṅgala ārati.
Hayagrīva: Sublimation is, well let me read, "The excessive excitations from individual sexual sources are discharged and utilized in other spheres, so that no small enhancement of mental capacity results from a predisposition which is dangerous as such." In other words, he didn't believe that..., in total sexual freedom as it's conceived today, but that a man would be better, instead of trying to totally deny the sex drive, to try to redirect it, oh, perhaps in artistic activity or in, in study, or in some other activity. Not to deny it.
Prabhupāda: That means, in one word, to divert his attention.
Hayagrīva: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is brahmacārī. That is recommended in the Vedic culture, that from the very beginning of his life, divert his attention for spiritual activities, he, he will forget about sex life. That is the experience. Not only a trained-up child, even a grown-up person, if he takes Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, he also forgets sex life. So that is possible by training, one can forget sex life. That, that is experience of Yamunacārya. He expressing, yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde. He says that "Since my, my mind and attention has been diverted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness activities, as soon as I thing of sex life, I spite on it."
Hayagrīva: Jung sees atheistic Communism as the greatest threat in the world today. He writes that "The Communist revolution has debased man, because it robs him of his freedom, not only in the social but in the moral and spiritual sense. The state has taken the place of God. That is why, seen from this angle, the socialist dictatorships are religions, and state slavery is a form of worship."
Prabhupāda: Yes, I agree with him. That is the degradation of human civilization. But the philosophy of the Communist, that everyone has equal right or everyone must take share of the state equally, that is little, basic principle of real communism. According to our understanding, God is the father, material nature is the mother, and we, all living entities, are sons of the father and mother. So as sons everyone has right to live at the cost of father's property. The whole universe is the property of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and all living entities, they are being supported by the father. But one should be satisfied with the supplies allotted to him. That is, Īśopaniṣad says, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). There is no need of encroaching on others' property. We should not become envious of the capitalist or rich man, because everyone is given his allotment by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I should be satisfied with my allotment. I should not encroach upon others' allotment. But the exploitation idea is not there. The same thing, that nobody should exploit.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the structure of man's essence, his consciousness, is freedom. He is continually free to change as he chooses.
Prabhupāda: As soon as you say freedom, it is freedom of some living being. Matter has no freedom. So as soon as you speak of freedom, that freedom must be a living being. A huge mountain, dead mountain, or any dead body, it has no freedom. It is lying down. You keep it with some chemical process and the body will remain lying down, just like the Egyptian mummies, there are so many. So it has lost its freedom because the active principle is not there. As soon as you say of freedom, the freedom is only applicable to a living being, not to the matter. Matter has no freedom.
Śyāmasundara: He says that matter is something and that the living being is nothing.
Prabhupāda: No. That is his nonsense. He has no perfect knowledge. If matter is something and the basic principle on which the matter stands, it is nothing, that is the most imperfect statement. These are all nonsense philosophy.
Śyāmasundara: He says that we cannot escape this situation of freedom, that somehow or other we are therefore responsible for our activities. We cannot escape the situation of being free. Everyone is free to determine what is his future.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you speak of accident? If you are irresponsible, then why do you say accident? The two things cannot go. If he was responsible, he must be responsible to something else, who is condemning you or blessing you. How it can be accident? These are contradictions.
Śyāmasundara: This situation that we find ourselves in, choosing our future, everyone has to choose his future, what is the next step...
Prabhupāda: Then why do you say accident? First of all you withdraw the word accident, then you can talk all this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Inattention. We should be always very attentive. Therefore the military laws, first they say, "Attention!" As soon as there is no attention, you meet with so many so-called accidents.
Śyāmasundara: He says that man's nature is an indefinite state of freedom. There is no definite nature that a man has, that it is continually created as he...
Prabhupāda: That means he is eternal. He has to accept it that he is eternal.
Śyāmasundara: Because he has no definite nature?
Prabhupāda: No. Indefinite. What is that indefinite?
Śyāmasundara: That means he is constantly changing. Just like tomorrow my body will be slightly different, my mind may change, I may decide...
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that we have the freedom to control it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have the freedom, but your freedom is now choked up, being conditioned. Just like you have freedom to move, but if you are thrown into the ocean, your freedom is choked up. Therefore your duty is how to get yourself released from the condition where your freedom is choked up.
Śyāmasundara: Ah, I see. This is one reason why he says that we are nothing, because...
Prabhupāda: Because he cannot explain, he has no such knowledge; therefore it is very easy to say nothing.
Śyāmasundara: Because today we are one thing, tomorrow we are another thing. So therefore we are nothing.
Śyāmasundara: He says that because I have freedom to choose, that makes me susceptible to bad faith, to a condition which he calls bad faith, irresponsibility.
Prabhupāda: You have freedom of choice—that's nice—but if you do not make your choice nicely, then you have to suffer. That is responsibility.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that because we have freedom, this makes us tend to be irresponsible, to shy away from taking responsibility.
Prabhupāda: No. Responsibility is there, and still freedom is there. Just like ordinarily, in our dealing, out of responsibility the direction is "Stick to the right." Or there is a red light, "Stop." So if I do not care about the red light, then I become criminal. That is responsibility. You have responsibility, but at the same time you have got the discrimination. Without discrimination there cannot be any responsibility. So responsibility is not blind. That means you should discriminate. You should know what is right and wrong. That is responsibility. If we do wrongly, then we will have to suffer. That is responsibility.
Prabhupāda: That is freedom, that you can make your choice between right and wrong. That is freedom. Freedom does not mean you are dull.
Śyāmasundara: But what if you avoid even choosing right or wrong, you simply drift without any decision of right or wrong?
Prabhupāda: No. That is irresponsibility.
Śyāmasundara: That's what he is saying, that because we are free, we are susceptible.
Prabhupāda: We are free means you have to make your choice between right and wrong. That is freedom.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. But his idea is that because we are free, sometimes we neglect to even choose between right and wrong.
Prabhupāda: That is wrong decision. Then you should suffer. That is responsibility. Why you have done wrong?
Devotee: He is not recognizing that that is a choice. You could not choose that way unless you had this freedom.
Śyāmasundara: No. It's not like that. Supposing there is a war, a country goes to war. There is the choice whether to say, to choose whether it is right or wrong, but I avoid the choice altogether. I don't enter into it. Apathetic.
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot avoid the choice. At the present age there is democratic government. When we agree to fight with another, that means you have got your assent. Why should you not fight?
Śyāmasundara: I haven't made this very clear, but because we have freedom, we become susceptible to bad faith. Bad faith means that we avoid making any decisions at all, good or bad. We simply drift. He calls it drift. We go day to day without entering and becoming involved with any responsible decision-making.
Prabhupāda: That drift means that is decision. Yes. That is decision. When you drift, that is decision.
Prabhupāda: Urchins. No. This is the condition of the hippies, not for a gentleman.
Śyāmasundara: He says that because we are free, that we are susceptible to this condition. That's all. But he says that this condition...
Prabhupāda: Free means to make right or wrong decision. That is free. Freedom does not mean dullness or passive.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. But because we are free we become susceptible to being dull.
Prabhupāda: Just like a dog. A dog is free. He can go to the right or the wrong side, and nobody cares for it. That is for the dog. But if a human being, if he decides instead of going to the right, to the left, then he is criminal, because he has got responsibility. So either you take dog's philosophy or man's philosophy. Dog's philosophy, he has no decision. He is an animal. He can go this side or that side. But we cannot do that. So whether he is man or dog. If he is a man, he must decide right and wrong. He is responsible. That is a man.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, that individuality.
Śyāmasundara: And that his decision-making power, his freedom to make decisions, is his real essence, his real nature.
Prabhupāda: So he agrees also at the same time, responsibility.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that means he must have the power to make decisions, right and wrong. That is responsible.
Śyāmasundara: The main thing, though, is that he must abide by his decision. Whatever he chooses, that he must live it.
Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. If I decide to steal, it is better to avoid it. Not that because I have to decided to steal, I must do it just like a hero and then go to prison.
Prabhupāda: So that is animal decision. That is not human decision. Human decision that there is signboard, "Speed Limit 35." If he doesn't care, he is not a human being, he is animal. A human being, he will take care, "Why shall I drive 100?"
Śyāmasundara: This philosophy gives rise to so much freedom.
Prabhupāda: This philosophy has given rise to these hippies.
Śyāmasundara: Hippies, yes.
Prabhupāda: So they are without any responsibility. Whatever he likes, he can do. So that is animal. There is no question of human civilization or human beings.
Śyāmasundara: He has an optimistic side to his philosophy in that he says the fate of the world depends upon man's decision. Obviously, if men decide to do things properly, the world would be a better place.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, there is government. In the Marxist, Communist country, there is government, so how you can avoid the government and leadership? That is not possible. Then the society is in chaotic condition.
Hayagrīva: He believes that each man is responsible for other men, but that he believes..., he also believes that each man has the freedom to work out his own destiny, so to speak.
Prabhupāda: Say, suppose if I want to do with you some, something good, and you are free. So if you don't accept me, then I don't accept that, that is, means chaotic. How you are responsible for me? If I don't obey, so how you can become responsible for me? So he says that a man should be responsible for other men. But if he does not obey you, where is the responsibility? So crazy fellow that.
Hayagrīva: It appears to be contradictory.
Prabhupāda: So that is already there. The Vedic injunction means the (indistinct), they are conditioned, so that under conditions they also can be fruitful(?). What is his idea?
Śyāmasundara: He says that society should be full of love and security and harmony, and everyone should work in unison. But because people have freedom to choose what they want, then too much freedom, the society is falling apart.
Prabhupāda: That is Western society, not the society controlled by the Vedic literature. Just like marriage in Vedic society, that is a religious obligation. They cannot cancel. The freedom, the so-called freedom is allowed in the upstart Western society.
Śyāmasundara: So he says we have to change all this now.
Prabhupāda: Then we have to take to the Vedic principles. That is the way.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is conditioned, that is a fact. Unless he is conditioned, there is no question of material life. Material life means conditioned life. There is no question of material life. Material life means conditioned life. There is no question of freedom. Just like prison life. Prison life means conditioned life. You may be a first-class prisoner, a second-class, a third-class prisoner, that is another thing, but as soon as you are put within the walls of the prison house, you are conditioned. That is a fact. Similarly, anyone who has accepted this body (Sanskrit). Just like Bhāgavata says, nayam deha dehabhajam nrloke. Nrloke. Everyone is conditioned, accepting this material body. But he says nayam deha deha-bhajam nrloke. But those who have accepted this material body in the human society, for them it is not good to be engaged in sense gratification like dogs, hogs and camels. Everyone who has got this material body, he is conditioned. But, so when one gets the body of a human being, he should not be so conditioned like the dogs, hogs, camels. This is the truth, that we are conditioned. We have got the body. We have got the bodily necessity. We have to eat, we have to sleep, gratify our senses, protect ourself from fear. The conditions are there, but still, we can make the conditions better. How? Tapo. We have to undergo austerities, penances. Just like we, we don't say, "No sex life," but "No illicit sex life." This is better life.
Prabhupāda: You will clean automatically like that, with clean heart.
Devotee: That is the difference.
Śyāmasundara: Another thing is that they reject the idea of modesty and sin. They say that sex is all right. It is a pleasant pastime like anything else. Freedom of sex life.
Prabhupāda: Just like animals. Sex life like animals.
Śyāmasundara: They said.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) say that. (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: They do not reinforce the sin of sex life.
Prabhupāda: Sex life, we don't say it is sin, but there is rules and regulations of sex life.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: That is their whole thing. All their philosophy tries to have good sex life so that they don't have to think that they will be punished. So if I can have this freedom then I am right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The real point is sense gratification. Freedom of sense gratification. That is their point. But these fools, they do not know that by sense gratification you are entangling yourself in repetition of birth and death.
Śyāmasundara: So Skinner nonetheless allows himself some relaxation. He drinks vodka and tonic in the late afternoon (laughter) and sees an occasional movie. He reads George Simon detective novels once in awhile and enjoys the company of friends. He has two children and his grandchildren. There is a note from his diary: "Sun streams in (indistinct) room. My hi-fi is midway through the first act of Tristan and Isolde. A very pleasant environment. A man would be a fool not to enjoy himself in it. In a moment I will work on a manuscript which may help mankind. So my life is not only pleasant; it is earned or deserved. And yet, yet, I am unhappy."
Prabhupāda: In that sense he is a truthful man. Yes. Truthful.
Prabhupāda: That, that I explain always, that state duty is the freedom of religion, but the state must see that a person advocating particular type of religion, whether he is acting according to that religion...
Hayagrīva: But he felt that if this religion should be allowed, it should be individual and not communal. He says, "Liberty as a right of man is not based on the association of man with man but rather on a separation of man from man. It is the right of separation..."
Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of separation, that if we accept God as the supreme father. Now the Christian religion believes God as the supreme father. So if the supreme father is there, and if we become obedient to the supreme father, then why, where is the difference of opinion? But we do not know the supreme father and we do not obey the supreme father. That is the cause of dissension. The son's duty is to become obedient to the father and enjoy father's property. So if we know the supreme father, and if we live according to the father's order, so there is question of antagonism, dissension. It is all our own, father being the center. That, the difficulty is that we call supreme father but we do not accept the father's order or what is the order of the supreme father. That is the defect.
Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. If I know that "This land belongs to me, government has allotted me," so I can develop in my own way. I have got freedom. Wholesale dependence, what is the value of this?
Śyāmasundara: He believes that that's a false idea, this idea of freedom or proprietorship. That it only leads to exploitation and misery for others.
Prabhupāda: Misery for others?
Śyāmasundara: If I have proprietorship of something, then that means someone else is deprived of that.
Śyāmasundara: He says that there is freedom of the will in two different senses. One, activity that is surely not subject to compulsion by extraneous forces, and... Activity that is merely not subject to compulsion by extraneous forces, and expression of integrated, self-directing persons acting in a purposeful, coherent way in order to serve the best interest of all. In other words there is the freedom of the will, which is merely not subject to extraneous forces, and there is also the self-directing free will, who is aware of ethical values, and he is...
Prabhupāda: That two cooperation, two kinds of cooperation is going on. Just like in a state a citizen is cooperating as a free citizen. The same citizen is cooperating in the prison by force. The jail superintendent says, "Now you break these bricks." He has to do; otherwise he'll be punished. He is cooperating by force. But this cooperation is inferior cooperation. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). By constitutional position, a living entity is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. In the Vaikuṇṭha jagat, the cooperation, the service is voluntary. And here in this material world the service is forced because it is māyā.
Śyāmasundara: And he says that freedom of the will is relative, that in our higher level it becomes clear that the lower stage was actually determined, predetermined or directed by external forces.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called karma-phala. That we have explained. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). Unless superior superintendence he is working, and as a result of his work, he is getting a particular type of body for enjoyment or suffering.
Śyāmasundara: Even though he thinks he's free. He thinks he's free.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Śyāmasundara: It is that the supreme principle of world order is freedom.
Prabhupāda: Yes, freedom. Our present condition is not freedom. We are completely under the laws, te 'pi svatantra rudhāṇī vardhya (?). They are tied up by the ropes of material nature, hands and legs, and still they are thinking, "I am free." That is illusion. Nobody is free. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). We are seeking freedom but nobody is free. Nobody is free. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27), they are pulled by the ear, "Do this." Prakṛteḥ. You have to do this.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the free will, which creates itself or realizes itself is the truest of all realities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if by free will if you choose to surrender to Kṛṣṇa they you'll get your real free will, freedom. Otherwise you are under the clutches of māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot surpass the stringent laws of material nature, that is not...
Hayagrīva: Insofar as man resembles God, he is ethical. Evil forces within man combat his efforts to attain this ultimate goal. Plato is not a determinist. He emphasized freedom of the will and insisted that evil acts are due to man's failure to live up to his responsibility. They do not come from God, who is all-good.
Prabhupāda: Everything comes from God, but we have to make our choice. This ideal example: that the university comes from the government and the prison house also comes from the government, but the prison house is meant for the criminal and the university is meant for the highly learned scholar. The government spends money in both the departments to maintain it; therefore, so far government's recognition is concerned, it has to be maintained. But it is we, we make our selection whether go to the prison house or go to the university. That is, that little independence is there in every human being. We have to make our choice.
Hayagrīva: He says that perfection within the world of the senses can never be attained...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That the individual soul, being attracted by this illusory energy, he comes here for sense gratification. It is not by the desire of the Supreme One. By his personal desire. So God gives him freedom. So he begins the life from a very exalted position in this material world—sometimes like Brahma. But on account of material activities he becomes entangled, so much so that degradation from the exalted position like Lord Brahma, he comes to become a worm in the stool. Therefore we find so many species of life. The degradation and elevation is going on—sometimes elevated, sometimes degraded—and in this way they will..., individual soul is suffering. That is his suffering, material miserable condition. When he comes to understand that "This kind of degradation and elevation going on perpetually, this is my suffering," then at that time he becomes fortunate. Then he seeks after the Supreme One, Kṛṣṇa, and by the grace of Kṛṣṇa he gets bona fide spiritual master. So by the mercy of both the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, he gets the chance of being engaged in devotional service, and little effort and sincerity makes him perfect, and he goes back to home back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already explained, that...
Hayagrīva: "Once having tasted the pleasures of independence, they use their freedom to go any direction that leads away from their origin, and when they have gone a great distance, they even forget that they came from it."
Prabhupāda: That's a fact. More and more degraded. That I have already explained. He begins his life as Lord Brahmā and goes down as the worm in the stool. That is his degradation. And again, by nature's way, by evolution, he comes to the human form of life. That is a chance to understand that how he has fallen. And if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then from this life he goes again back to Kṛṣṇa. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). If he fully becomes trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness... And everyone has to give up this body, so a devotee will give up this body, but he is not going to accept any more material body. Immediately transferred to the spiritual world. Mām eti: "He comes to Me." That is the advantage. They sometimes, foolish persons, say that "You are also going to die."
Prabhupāda: Yes. When he understands his pleasing, as situation with God, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate... (BG 9.59). When he understands the transcendental pleasing situation of his life, he automatically gives up this material bodily attachment. That is his freedom. And when he actually, in his spiritual identity, engaged in the service of the Lord, that is his normal position. (break)
Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of Origen. Origen believed that all the elements that are found in the material body are also found in the spiritual body, which he called the interior man. He says, "God created man not taking the dust of the earth like the second time, but He created him after the image of God," that is initially, "this being after the likeness of God was immaterial, superior to any corporeal hypothesis. There are thus two men in each one of us, as every exterior man has for homonym the interior man. So it is for all His members, and one can say that every member of the exterior man can be found under this name in the interior man." So that for every corresponding sense that we have in the exterior body, there's a corresponding sense in the interior or the spiritual body which exists within.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Vedic injunction, that don't beget children unless you can give the children relief from the cycle of birth and death. One should not become father and mother. That is responsible father and mother. And without this responsibility, if a man gives birth to a child and if a woman bears the pregnancy, that is prohibited. One should not become a father, one should not become a mother unless they are competent to give freedom to the children from the cycle of birth and death.
Hayagrīva: His argument, well, he says, "Marriage is natural to man, and an irregular connection outside of marriage is contrary to the good of man; therefore fornication must be sinful."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: Continuing Descartes, he writes, "It is not an imperfection in God that He has given me the freedom of assenting or not assenting to things of which He has not placed a clear and distinct knowledge in my understanding. On the other hand, unquestionably it is an imperfection in me that I do not use this freedom right, yet..." So but one may then ask, Why doesn't God give us the understanding whereby we can choose properly in all cases?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: Why can't we have free will and at the same time...
Prabhupāda: Free will means...
Hayagrīva: ...infallible judgment?
Prabhupāda: But God has no past, present, future. So where is history? It is all nonsense. He does not know what is the meaning of God.
Hayagrīva: Hegel placed a great deal of emphasis on human freedom.
Prabhupāda: There is no freedom. That is another nonsense.
Hayagrīva: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) He is subjected to birth, death, old age. Where is his freedom? That is another nonsense.
Hayagrīva: He accuses the Orientals, mainly the Indians... He says, "The Orientals do not know that the spirit is free in itself or that man is free in himself. Because they do not know it, they are not free."
Prabhupāda: But is he free? Why he died? The Orientals he is accusing. Why he died? This is their nonsense speculation.
Hayagrīva: He says, "They only know that the one"—that is, the one Brahman—"is free; therefore such freedom is only arbitrary."
Prabhupāda: Then why he says that the human being should be free?
Hayagrīva: He says this one, supreme one, is therefore a despot, not a free man, not a man. Only the Germanic nations have in and through Christianity achieved the consciousness that man as man is free and that freedom of the spirit constitutes his very nature. This consciousness arose first in religion and the innermost region of spirit.
Prabhupāda: Christian religion is that the man either goes to heaven or goes to hell. So he has got the freedom either go to hell or go to heaven. This freedom he has got. But who gives him hell or heaven? He has got the freedom to make choice, but when he is going to hell, then where is his freedom? That where is the distinction between hell and heaven? These are... If he is Christian he should answer that the man is given chance, once, either to go to hell or go to heaven. So all right, if he goes to heaven it is all right. Then if he goes to hell, where is freedom? This common sense also, that every citizen has got the freedom to live as free citizen or to go to the jail, but one who goes to the jail, where is freedom? And who gives him the chance of free citizenship or prisoner's life? Therefore his freedom is dependent on somebody, higher principle, who gives him chance to remain free or go to prison. That God is the supreme controller. He gives the living entity freedom to make his choice, either go to hell or go to heaven, but he is not completely free as God is free.
Prabhupāda: But first thing is that if you have got will, but reasonable will, first of all you have to think, "Who has kept this gold here? I am claiming proprietorship simply by coming here, but who has kept this gold here?" Why don't you think like that? What kind of human being you are?
Hayagrīva: A final point: he believed that man should have the freedom to choose his occupation. He writes, "In the Platonic state, subjective freedom was of no account. Since the..."
Prabhupāda: That means there are already different occupations, and you have freedom to select one of them. But the occupation is already there, created by somebody else. You have the freedom to make a choice. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: (BG 4.13) "I have created these four principles of occupational duties." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Now, if according to your qualification you can make a selection, "I, I like this occupation." But the occupation is already there. Just like a shopkeeper, he has got varieties of goods. The customer goes, he can say, "I like this." "All right, you can take it. This is the price." Similarly, the occupational duties are already there. The (indistinct) are already there. That is created by God. Now you can select one of them according to the price you can pay.
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, yajña-arthāt karma. Only for yajña or Kṛṣṇa you should work. Yajña-arthāt karma, anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ. Otherwise you are entangled. This is freedom, to work for Kṛṣṇa; then you are not under entanglement. This is..., there are many practical examples. Just that a soldier, he is killing, his business is killing, and the more he kills he gets recognition. But as soon as he kills one man on his own account, he is murderer. Just like when... The soldier's business is to kill, and so long he is killing for the satisfaction of his state, of the government, he is getting recognition medals. The same soldier, as soon as he kills one man for his own sense satisfaction, he is a murderer, he is to be hanged. This is the karma-bandhanaḥ. The business the same—killing. But one killing is on the order of the state and one killing is for his sense gratification. So killing business is the same, but the position is different. Similarly, when you act for Kṛṣṇa, that is not karma-bandhanaḥ; that is freedom. And when you act for yourself, that is karma-bandhanaḥ. That is the teaching of Bhagavad-gītā throughout.
Hayagrīva: His most famous book was Walden II, which was... Thoreau lived in Walden, Henry Thoreau. He lived alone. It was a solitary experiment of plain living and high thinking. He writes, "We practice the Thoreauvian principle of avoiding unnecessary possessions." Thoreau pointed out that the average Concord laborer worked ten or fifteen hours of his..., fifteen years of his life just to have a roof over his head. We could say ten weeks and be on the safe side. Food is plentiful and healthful but not expensive." So he goes on to say that "We strike for economic freedom, we do not believe in unnecessary consumption, we consume less than the average American." So it's an attempt to construct a society somewhat similar to New Vrindaban, with the exception of no spiritual basis as such.
Prabhupāda: That is primitive life, jungle life. Monkey civilization. Of course they claim to be descendant of monkey, that they will go on like that. But that is not human civilization, to keep the monkey in the jungle. We want life, very peaceful life without any unnecessary, what is called, necessities. That is all right. But the aim should be spiritual perfection. Therefore the first thing is what is the aim of life, that should be ascertained. Without aim, if you lounge on this ocean, where you are going? That is useless attempt. We must first of all know what is the aim of life. These people, they do not know what is the aim of life. Simply, superficially they are trying to adjust, "This will be done, this will be done." No. These are all mental speculation. First of all you must know what is the aim of life, and to this, to that direction, we have to adjust things. That is perfection.
Purports to Songs
There is no enjoyment. But they are thinking, "I am enjoying." This is called illusion, māyā. There cannot be any enjoyment. When you are not free, when you are conditioned under the stringent laws of... You do not like to die. You are forced to die. You must die. You cannot say, "No, I will not die." No, that is not possible. So where is your freedom? But we are declaring, "Now we are independent." This is all illusion.
So Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared to save us from all these illusions. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya means living, not dead. If we have no spiritual consciousness, if we have not Kṛṣṇa's consciousness, then we are dead. This, what is this body? This body is dead. Alive or dead, so-called dead, it is already dead because it is matter. But because there is spirit soul, it is moving. The same example: the motor car, what is this? A lump of matter, some iron, some other metals or some rubbers and combination. And so long the driver is there—it is moving—it is important so long it is moving. And as soon as the movement stops, you throw it away. That is very good experience in your country. So many useless motor cars are heaped together. So similarly, the brāhmaṇa means one must know that who is the driver of this body, brahma-jñāna.
| Page Title: | Freedom (Lectures, Other) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 09 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=101, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 101 |