So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavān mamāpi durdaivam īdṛśam ihājani nānurāgaḥ: "My dear Lord, You have sent in age Your name, which is full of potency, as much potencies as You have got. Still, I am so unfortunate that I cannot chant even Your holy names." It is so nice. You haven't got to do anything, simply try to chant the holy name of God. Then gradually everything will evolve within you, because within you everything is there. Simply you have to accept the process and everything will come out. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Our misunderstanding is due to dirty things within our hearts. So first benefit of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra will be that all the dirty things within your hearts will be cleansed. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpanaṁ. And immediately you'll be relieved from the blazing fire of this material existence.
Evolve (Lectures)
Lectures
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures
Swedish man (2): Now, a question concerning the 8,400,000's of lives which man has to evolve through. A spiritual being, having entered, or placed(?), the way of man, can he ever gain a reincarnate in the kingdom of animals?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Swedish man (2): What happens to his consciousness which he has achieved as a man during that time which he is in the animal kingdom?
Prabhupāda: Yes, consciousness is according to the body. Just like when you were a child, your consciousness was different because you had a different body. In your childhood you might have talked so many nonsense things.
So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A Kṛṣṇa consciousness, a Kṛṣṇa conscious person should not be fool. If he is required to explain how these universal planets are floating, how this human body is rotating, how many species of life, how they are being evolved... These are all scientific knowledge. Physics, botanics, chemistry, astronomy, everything. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yaj jñātvā, if you understand this knowledge, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you'll have nothing to know. That means you'll have complete knowledge. We are hankering after knowledge, but if we are in knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if we know Kṛṣṇa, then all knowledge is included.
We are thinking that "Let me enjoy this life to my best capacity," as the atheist class of people think, but they do not know how much risk they are taking. If I develop my characteristics like cats and dogs, then my next life is becoming bound up in the body of cats and dogs. But they do not know the science. How the transmigration of the soul is evolving in 8,400,000 species of life, the modern science they do not know. They do not know, but there is, there is law.
That is dharma. Dharma means to know the rules and regulation given by God. That is dharma. Dharmaṁ tu... Just like you must know the government's laws, similarly, you must know what is God's law. God's law is this, that everyone is evolving through different forms of body to come to the platform of human body. That is nature's law. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). So they do not know. Nāpi cācāraḥ. All so low grade persons at the present moment, civilization, that... Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10).
Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures
Hṛdayānanda: (break) ...you could explain something of what the scientists are always talking about, mutation and variation, and how one species evolves from another species.
Prabhupāda: By the mind, intelligence and ego. At the time of death, you think of what you have done all through your life. So the mental situation at the time of death will carry you to the different form of life as your mental situation. We do not see the mind, intelligence, although we say that "I have got mind. You have got mind. You have got intelligence.
And when he is situated in his original, spiritual platform, then his occupational duty is to serve Kṛṣṇa. These are the three positions: karma, jñāna, yoga, bhakti—gradual evolution. Because spiritual knowledge also gradually evolves. Nirviśeṣa-brahman, antaryāmī paramātmā, and ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇa-bhagavān—these are the different stages of self-realization or spiritual advancement. Karma, jñāna, yoga and bhakti. Yoga means bhakti-yoga, or the preliminary, primary stage of bhakti-yoga.
This is a problem to the modern scientist, how creation was possible. They cannot understand that without spiritual touch, there cannot be any creation. That is their poor fund of knowledge. The Darwin's theory, development, process of evolution, they are childish. They are concentrating on the matter: matter is evolving. Matter does not evolve; matter is dead. It is due to the presence of the spirit soul it evolves. That they do not understand, although actually we are seeing. Just like a child born.
So now, in this age, people are not very intelligent. They are claiming, "We are advancing in science. The brain has advanced and so on, so on." Formerly there was animal brain. The Darwin's theory: "Now the brain has evolved." No. Actually, they are degrading. They are degrading. Formerly the brain was very sharp. Otherwise why it is said, dṛṣṭvā puṁso 'lpa-medhasaḥ? The opposite word of this alpa-medhasa is su-medhasa. Alpa means less, and su means very nice. So su-medhasa. We are all alpa-medhasa, less intelligent, in this age. Out of so many alpa-medhasa rascal... In other, in a harsh words, alpa-medhasa means rascal, less intelligent or no intelligence. So there is su-medhasa. Su-medhasa. That is also stated. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ.
Where is this flavor? He does not know the flavor is in his navel. You see. The flavor is there in him, but he is finding out, "Where it is? Where it is?" Similarly we have got so many dormant mystic power within us. We are unaware. But if you practice the mystic yoga system, some of them you can evolve very nicely. Just like the birds are flying, but we cannot fly. Sometimes we desire, "Had I the wings of a dove..." There are poetry: "I could immediately go." But that mystic power is also within you. If you develop by yogic practice, you can also fly in the air. That is possible. There is a planet which is called Siddhaloka. In the Siddhaloka, the inhabitants, they are called... Siddhaloka means they have got so many mystic powers.
Just like animals. The animal, he does not know, the dog, that "I am bound up in this dog's body. This is bondage. This is not my life." He does not know. Similarly, a human being, if he does not know what is bondage and liberation, then he's animal. From animal life, this human life is evolved for understanding this: what is mukti and what is liberation.
So mukti and liberation, if you keep your consciousness materially affected... Guṇeṣu saktam. Material world means the three qualities, tri-guṇa, guṇamayī. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, guṇamayī, mama māyā. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvaiḥ.
Śrī Prakṛti is now manifested, and we are living entities. We are here, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayo yāḥ (BG 14.4), in many varieties. So what is the aim? The aim is God realization. By evolutionary process, gradually, we come to the human form of life. Aśītiṁ caturaś caiva jīva-jātiṣu, jīva-jāti. Jīva, under different species of life, they are evolving.
Nitāi: "The material energy springs up from the mahat-tattva, which evolved from the Lord's own energy. The material ego is endowed predominantly with active power of three kinds—good, passionate and ignorant. From these three types of material ego the mind, the senses of perception, and the organs of action, and the gross elements evolve."
Prabhupāda:
- mahat-tattvād vikurvāṇād
- bhagavad-vīrya-sambhavāt
- kriyā-śaktir ahaṅkāras
- tri-vidhaḥ samapadyata
- vaikārikas taijasaś ca
- tāmasaś ca yato bhavaḥ
- manasaś cendriyāṇāṁ ca
- bhūtānāṁ mahatām api
- (SB 3.26.23-24)
So the process of creation, how, one after another, it takes place, that is described here. So the total energy, mahat-tattva, by interaction, the begins... The moving, the pushing, begins from the bhagavad-vīryatā. Bhagavad-vīrya-sambhavāt. Vīrya means energy. We understand vīrya sometimes—the semina. It is something like that; not exactly the material semina, but potency or energy, spiritual energy. That is the beginning of creation.
Nitāi: "From the false ego of goodness, another transformation takes place. From this evolves the mind, whose thoughts and reflections give rise to desire."
Prabhupāda:
- vaikārikād vikurvāṇān
- manas-tattvam ajāyata
- yat-saṅkalpa-vikalpābhyāṁ
- vartate kāma-sambhavaḥ
- (SB 3.26.27)
So this mind is material because it is the product of transformation of the modes of goodness. Then, gradually, being contaminated by different kinds of material desires, it becomes degraded. Kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. When it is deteriorated, then, from the standard of goodness, it comes to rajo-guṇa. And rajo-guṇa means lusty desires, unending desires.
Nitāi: "From ethereal existence, which evolves from sound, the next transformation takes place under the impulse of time, and thus the subtle element touch and thence air and sense of touch become prominent."
Prabhupāda:
- nabhasaḥ śabda-tanmātrāt
- kāla-gatyā vikurvataḥ
- sparśo 'bhavat tato vāyus
- tvak sparśasya ca saṅgrahaḥ
- (SB 3.26.35)
So everything is explained there one after another, subtle things, how changing from ether, this sound, sense perception. There is ether. In the space also, there is ether, and we can understand the presence of ether by sound. The sound is being produced on account of ether.
Nitāi: "In the course of time, when the subtle forms are transformed into gross forms, they become the objects of touch. The objects of touch and the tactile sense also develop after this evolution in time. Sound is the first sense object to exhibit material existence, and from the perception of sound, touch perception evolves, and from touch perception the perception of sight. That is the way of the gradual evolution of our perceptive objects."
Prabhupāda: You can read the next purport. Mṛdutvaṁ kaṭhinatvaṁ ca.
Nitāi: "By the interaction of fire and the visual sensation, the subtle element taste evolves under a superior arrangement. From taste, water is produced, and the tongue, which perceives taste, is also manifested."
Prabhupāda:
- rūpa-mātrād vikurvāṇāt
- tejaso daiva-coditāt
- rasa-mātram abhūt tasmād
- ambho jihvā rasa-grahaḥ
- (SB 3.26.41)
How water is manufactured, that is explained here. The modern scientists, they speak of manufacturing water by combination of two gases: hydrogen, oxygen. May be true to certain extent.
Nitāi: "Due to the interaction of water with the taste perception, the subtle element odor evolves under superior arrangement. Thence the earth and the olfactory sense, by which we can variously experience the aroma of the earth, become manifest."
Prabhupāda:
- rasa-mātrād vikurvāṇād
- ambhaso daiva-coditāt
- gandha-mātram abhūt tasmāt
- pṛthvī ghrāṇas tu gandhagaḥ
- (SB 3.26.44)
So further analytical study of water is mentioned here by Kapiladeva. So the rasa, taste. Taste changes into gandha, smell.
The man follows restriction; animal cannot. Because man has got developed consciousness. He should know what is the aim of life. Therefore he should not live just like animals. He should be just like human being. That is the crossing stage of devel... In the ordinary way, we have evolved our life from lower animals, lower species of animals, to this human form of life. No (?) where another junction to promote yourself still higher, higher, higher life, unto the liberation life. But if you don't follow the restrictions, then you again glide down to lower animals' life. If you like, you can do that. Here is a chance. You haven't got to work so hard like the animals. God has given you so many facilities. You can live very nicely, better than animals. Therefore you must be better habits, I say, better habits than the animals.
Guest (2): Swami, I'm going to work to formulate this question. I don't know if I can speak it clearly. Now it's true that a soul must evolve through perhaps many lifetimes in order to reach the point at which he is ready to attempt renunciation. Right?
Prabhupāda: No. Renunciation, that depends on your understanding. If you understand that "This thing is not good," you can renounce it immediately.
Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of force. There is no question of force. We don't force. There is no question of force. Force cannot act. If I force you, then it will not act. You have to evolve yourself, from this platform to this platform. That is possible for everyone.
Guest (2): So if someone feels he has an overwhelming need, he shouldn't try to hold back to the point at which he suffers pain, but he should also chant or do something that will elevate him. And gradually he will.
They are not concerned anymore that "My son should be truthful, self-controlled, mind controlled," śama dama. Śama means mind-control, śamata, and dama means sense-control. Without controlling the mind, how you can control the senses? The yoga system is practiced to control the mind, to control the senses, because we have to evolve from animal platform to brāhmaṇa platform or spiritual platform, sattva-guṇa.
Then again become dwindled, become old man, and again vanish. So bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Everything material will have to change like this. And there are 8,400,000's of different kinds of bodies, and you have to evolve in the cycle of such body. So if you want to get out of this circulation, continually, then here is the formula: tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Simply try to understand what is God or Viṣṇu, then you get that opportunity.
Exactly like gold bar and gold particle. The chemical composition of the gold bar and the gold particle is the same. So, ātmā nitya eternal. The materialistic scientists, they have no information of the ātmā. They think that this material combination of elements evolved some living force. That is their theory. As such they think that in other planets, where the atmosphere is different, they think there is no life, because they do not know that life means presence of the ātmā, and the ātmā, the soul, can live in any condition of material existence, any condition.
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
Duḥkhālayaṁ nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ saṁsiddhiṁ paramām... So our aim should be how to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is the real mission of human life. Because after... Asatiṁś cāturaṁś caiva lakṣaṁs tān jīva-jātiṣu. There are 8,400,000 species of life. After evolving, we have come to this human form of life. Tad apy viphalā jātaḥ. So if we do not understand Govinda, govinda-caraṇa-dvayam, then it is viphalā. It is simply misused. The modern civilization, they do not know this. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for educating people that "You are simply wasting your time."
Sri Brahma-samhita Lectures
So there are very, very big, big fishes. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. You get immediately information, without being a biologist, scientist, you can get information. The Darwin's theory, in most perfection, there is in the Padma Purāṇa: jīva-jatiṣu. The evolutionary theory is there. But Darwin is missing the real point: Who is, who is evolving? He's missing the spirit soul. He cannot explain. That is imperfect.
Wedding Ceremonies
Just like there is distinction of the duration of life between the microbes and the human being, similarly, there are different grades of different duration of life in different stage of planetary system. So the life is evolving. Now after evolutionary process from the lower animals, from the aquatics to plant life, vegetable life, then microbes, reptiles, birds, beasts, then we come to the human form of life, this civilized form of life. Now here it is just like crossing. Where we should go next life? Whether I shall promote myself to the higher planetary system or into the spiritual sky, Vaikuṇṭhaloka, or I shall go down again in the evolutionary process of lower animals? That is to be decided.
General Lectures
Darwin's theory, evolution of the organic matter, they are very much prominent in the educational institutions. But there is Padma Purāṇa and other authoritative Vedic scriptures. They give the magnitude of the living entity. They have different forms of body. How they are evolving one after another—everything is there. It is not a new thing. But people are giving stress only to the Darwin's theory. But in the Vedic literature we have got immense information of this living condition in this material world.
That is the way of material nature. Therefore self-realization is the opportunity of this human form of life. This human form of life... According to... Most of you, many of you may be students of anthropology, of Darwin's theory, that the life is evolving. This anthropology long, long years was stated in the Padma Purāṇa. There it is, it is stated, aśītiṁ caturaś caiva bhramadbhiḥ jīva-jātiṣu. Bhramadbhiḥ jīva-jā... These very words are there. These are Sanskrit words. What is that? Aśītiṁ caturaś caiva lakṣāṁs... That means 8,400,000 species of life, and you have got this human form of life, civilized form of life. This life has to be properly utilized. That is the whole purpose of Vedic literature. It is not to be spoiled like cats and dogs simply for sense gratification.
We are teaching that "Don't spoil your this rare human form of life simply by engaging yourself in the matter of sense gratification." Because sense gratification ample, or sufficient sense gratification opportunity you had even in the hog's life. Because we have migrated, we have evolved from hog's life also. Sometimes we had been a hog or a dog or something like that. Now we have come to this stage of life, this life should not be spoiled like the cats, dogs and hogs. But we should have some restraint and realize ourself. This possibility is there simply by chanting these sixteen words: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. This is possible. This is practical. Since I came to your country in 1965... Of course, for one year I was traveling here and there, but in 1966 I established first my class in New York at 26 Second Avenue.
This life is the preparation for the next life. Next life we have always, but we do not know what kind of life we are getting next. That we should know. That is the business of human form of life, not to waste life like animals and evolve. By the laws of nature, we get another form of life. We are evolving by the evolutionary theory. It is not theory. Of course, Mr. Darwin has called it theory, but in the Padma Purāṇa, Vedic literature... This evolutionary process is very nicely explained in Vedic literature. Aśītiṁs caturaś caiva bhramadbhiḥ jīva-jātiṣu. These Sanskrit words are there in the Padma Purāṇa, that "A living entity is traveling or evolving from lower grades of life to the higher grades of life in 8,400,000 species of life."
Then beasts, four-legged beasts, there are 3,000,000 species of life. Then, from beastly life, he comes to the human form life. There also variety, 400,000's of varieties. In this way we come to the point of civilized human form of life. The evolution is coming. Just like we evolve our body or grew our body from the womb of our mother. It is stated... Everything is there in the Vedic literature. After the sex intercourse of the man and woman, there is an emulsification of the two kinds of secretion.
That is my responsibility. If you don't take this responsibility, "What kind of body...?" It may be, if I am of doggish mentality, my next life will be just a dog because I will have to accept the dress of a dog. And if I am evolving my godly mentality, then I'll have to accept, or I will accept another body just like God. So that is in my hands.
Bahu means many, and janma means birth. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante: at the end of. At the end of many, many births. Perhaps you know that we believe the theory—not theory, the fact—of transmigration of soul. We are changing bodies one after another. There are 8,400,000's of different species of life, and we are evolving. And at last we come to this form, human form of life. This is also called bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). After many, many births. Labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte.
Indian man: I don't know the equivalent verse in Sanskrit from the Gītā, but somewhere it says that..., Kṛṣṇa says, "All roads lead to Me. No matter what one does, no matter what one thinks, no matter what one is involved with, eventually he's evolving towards Me," this Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice, but...
Indian man: In this evolution, is it a natural evolution that you can teach people, you can guide people, you can show them the path, but the actual progress that one would make towards the supreme knowledge, is that a natural evolution or is it...? Can that be influenced by external teaching?
Just like amongst the animals, amongst the birds you'll see. Take the pigeons. You give them some peas—they will eat. But if you give them some particles of meat, they'll not eat because they are living natural life. A tiger, he will not accept. You give him nice foodstuff, prepare your vegetables, he'll not accept. So natural life evolves up to the animal life. But when you come to the human form of life you have got developed consciousness, and instead of using your intelligence and consciousness for further develop naturally, you put unnatural impediments; therefore you are covered. That is called yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati, tadātmānam (BG 4.7). Therefore you require instruction of Kṛṣṇa.
It is not possible. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (CC Madhya 17.136). He is not... Kṛṣṇa is not perceivable by our material senses. "Then why you are troubling so much, because you have nothing but material senses?" No. It can be purified. How it can be purified? By love of God. When you evolve your dormant love of Godhead, your vision becomes different. That is called premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). They are also yogis. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ (BG 6.47). The same process. Either you go through the haṭha-yoga process or jñāna-yoga process, the ultimate goal is Kṛṣṇa, ultimate goal is Viṣṇu. And if we miss this point, then...
We learn from Vedic literature that after sexual intercourse of the male and female, if it is fruitful, then the living entity is injected in the emulsion of the two secretion and in the first night it takes the shapes of a pea. And because the living entity is there, it grows gradually, and then nine holes evolve, which are later on developed into two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, and one rectum, one genital, like that.
Our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just an attempt to educate the foolish human civilization without any sense of God. Our life... As we are spirit soul, we are evolving through many species of life, and if we don't take advantage of this human form of life, then we are missing the chance. Without God consciousness or without Kṛṣṇa consciousness there cannot be any peace. Everyone is hankering after peace, but he does not know how to achieve peace. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the greatest welfare activities in the world, and we request everyone to take advantage of this great scientific movement.
And this ignorance prevails in animals also. The animals do not know. Because they are not advanced in knowledge. But they have got also soul. Their soul is evolving or transmigrating from one body to another. There is a system. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa viṁśati. From the aquatics. Because the whole world was merged into water, devastation. Therefore the beginning of living entities, (is) the aquatics. From the aquatics, they come to the plants, trees. Then from plants, trees, to insect. From insect to birds. Then bird to beast. From beast to human being. Aśītiṁ caturaś caiva lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu. They're all mentioned. The evolutionary theory, it is not new thing, as it is stated by Darwin.
Philosophy Discussions
Śyāmasundara: But my point is they excavated down into the ground and they found that gradually, through the years, animals are evolving towards more and more complex forms, from very simple forms in the water to land animals, plants, and these big dinosaurs, then they died out.
Prabhupāda: If they died out, that means there is no more existence of that animal. But how can you say that the animal is existing somewhere else? Now, according to his statement that from a certain basic principle, by gradual evolution, the human body is coming. Now his theory is that the human body is coming from the monkey.
Śyāmasundara: They are related; they come from the same...
Śyāmasundara: I'm just saying that it appears, because layer after layer is deposited in the earth's crust, that the animal forms are evolving toward more complex forms, from simple animals to bigger animals, and then more complex, then to the man, civilized man.
Prabhupāda: From where it began?
Śyāmasundara: It began with the simplest forms.
Prabhupāda: What is that simplest form?
Prabhupāda: But we don't see that. Because at the present moment we see that all the species are there existing, including human beings.
Śyāmasundara: But he says they evolved. That's because they evolved.
Prabhupāda: Evolved, but they are still existing. Evolved, that is another thing. But all of them are existing still. So how you can say that millions of years they did not exist, all? His theory is that...
Śyāmasundara: Because there is not evidence that they exist.
Prabhupāda: Evidence, this is the evidence: if now all the species of life are existing, why not millions of years ago? What do you say?
Śyāmasundara: They say that there is new species always evolving.
Prabhupāda: That is not new. That is within the eight millions. You could not find the same thing, you could not find, before that; now we are finding. Your species, you could (not) give us a complete list. What is the evolutionary process wherefrom it began and how it's coming? You cannot give any fixed-up list. That is your imperfect knowledge. You are simply imagining. "It may be changed," "It may be chance," or this or that. That's all.
Śyāmasundara: Darwin, he was not so much interested in those questions of origin and those things, but he was a botanist and a biologist, and he simply wanted to investigate how things evolved from one simple form to a more complex form...
Prabhupāda: That he cannot say, how the evolved. He captured something out of his imagination, but he cannot explain scientifically.
Śyāmasundara: From simple forms to more complex forms.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: But all that Darwin is interested in is in the evolution of species: how one type of body evolves to the other type due to the changing conditions, and that because he has evolved a certain body he is best adapted to survive in that condition so that his species survives. So the scientists have shown that by bombarding the cosmic radiation or radioactive elements, that a gene or cell can change, mutate, so a different kind of animal comes out. From one kind of mother a different kind of animal comes out.
Prabhupāda: But we say that different kind of animal is not beyond these 8,400,000 species.
Śyāmasundara: Just like Darwin first investigated some islands off of Peru, Galapagos Islands, and he found different species of life that exist there that don't exist anywhere else, so that they must have evolved...
Prabhupāda: That means that he has not seen all the species, because he has not traveled all over the universe.
Karandhara: Deductive. It's a deductive conclusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has seen one island but he has not seen the whole creation.
Syamasundara: No.
Karandhara: In a sense we know from Vedic information that the species from one end from the smallest germ up to the highest demigod, they are progressively more advanced. So anyone can come along and take out a small eclipsed portion of that sequence and propose the theory that the species is advancing, but that gamut, that range, perspective of higher and lower is existing, but not that it's evolving...
Prabhupāda: It is already there. I am simply changing place, transmigration. That is our theory-transmigration.
Prabhupāda: Theory of evolution we accept.
Śyāmasundara: ...from simple forms of life, more complex forms evolve.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. But they are all existing still. They are not extinct. That is the point.
Śyāmasundara: All right. But on this planet, now if we could examine this planet...
Prabhupāda: Again you come to this planet. Why you are sticking to this planet?
Karandhara: Lord Brahmā, the most complex... From the Vedic information we find that the most complex living entity was first, and from him, he created all the variations. So from the most complex the most simple was evolved. Then if you have the wrong information, you could look at it and say it was the opposite, that from the most simple the most complex evolved. The sequence is there, and if you observe it in the wrong way, you may conclude it's going in the opposite direction.
Śyāmasundara: But in the Vedic scriptures...
Prabhupāda: The first creature is Brahmā, the most intelligent, the most learned.
Śyāmasundara: Just like they find evidence of large bird, pterodactyl, which has beastlike properties. It has legs also, and they say from that kind of bird evolved a more beastlike, like you say, beasts.
Prabhupāda: Just like we say that kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakāḥ pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam. From the insect life the bird's life developed. That we see practically. One have becomes flies, butterflies. In the grass, worm becomes a butterfly. That is, there is evidence.
Śyāmasundara: But at that time were there only insects existing?
Śyāmasundara: No. It does mean something if you accept that forms are evolving from simple to complex. That means that we can expect in the future that mankind will even be of a more superior nature than they are now.
Prabhupāda: Forms are... One form is superior than the other form. (indistinct) you said.
Karandhara: That possibility is also there. We know that by performances of certain types of sacrifices you can become, and go to the demigod planet...
Śyāmasundara: They would say that from the lowest apartments we are evolving to the better apartments.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So according to your position. Just like if you... There are different apartments: first-class apartments, second-class apartments, third-class apartment. But as you are fit to pay the rent or price, then you are allowed to enter in the apartment. The apartments are already there—first-class, second-class, third-class. They are not evolving.
Śyāmasundara: They say all living things on this earth are evolving in that way, from lower to higher. In the history of the earth...
Prabhupāda: That also may be accepted, because just like at certain period, people are constructing a certain type of apartment, next stage they construct a different type of apartment. That can be accepted. But the apartment itself is not evolving; the evolution is taking, of the apartment, on the desire of something else.
Śyāmasundara: On the desire of something else.
Śyāmasundara: Just like if it suddenly got cold, the spirit soul would desire to be warm so he would evolve a body with hair.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we say. That is our..., according to the mentality at the time of death you get another apartment. But the apartment is already there.
Śyāmasundara: I see. So if conditions suddenly change...
Prabhupāda: Change of mind.
Śyāmasundara: ...a new apartment would arrive on the scene because the...
Prabhupāda: Not will arrive, it is already there.
Prabhupāda: It is, apartment is not evolving. I am evolving in this sense that I am changing one apartment to a better apartment. The better apartment is already there.
Śyāmasundara: To go back to this survival of the fittest theory, supposing we are all here and the water comes, like you said. Supposing one of these persons in Los Angeles has the ability to breathe in water, somehow or other he can breathe under water...
Prabhupāda: So we have no objection.
Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow we can discuss ethical evolution, how ethics evolved. That is also part of his doctrine.
Prabhupāda: Ethic morality?
Śyāmasundara: How morality is also a product of evolution.
Prabhupāda: We change morality within six months. The most immoral man, you can make the most moral man within six months. This is practically happening.
Śyāmasundara: It also helps the fittest to survive.
Śyāmasundara: He says that at some point a man who had developed sympathy for others, he was able to survive because he would cooperate with them to survive when others were killing each other, like that. So gradually morality also evolved. Tomorrow maybe we should finish Darwin. (break)
Prabhupāda: An animal is put in some certain atmosphere, he adjusts. But there are different types animals. Just like we see while walking (in) severe cold, we try to adjust by covering. Others, the birds, the skylark, the so on, they do not adjust.
Śyāmasundara: His finding is that new types of species will come out, which will be better adapted. The swans, if it becomes too cold, they will die.
Śyāmasundara: But Darwin is the one who introduced this whole concept that we are evolving towards something better.
Prabhupāda: That we accept. That we accept. Just like we are now in human form of life. Now we can go, can make our position better. Either we go in so many higher planetary systems or we go to Vaikuṇṭha.
Śyāmasundara: In terms of species actually living on this planet, he thinks that we have come up from apes, now we may go up to higher forms of men or species.
Prabhupāda: That is already... The apes are already there. You are also there.
Śyāmasundara: He had a vague idea that societies or species would evolve toward something better, so he wanted to help that evolution.
Prabhupāda: That is a fact, but not that Mr. Darwin's foolish theory that he is going to be matter. He'll remain spirit but another species of life, another form of life. That another form of life will decide whether you are degraded or elevated.
Śyāmasundara: Darwin passed on his traits to his son, Charles Darwin, and his son's great contribution to the world was that the moon was moving away from the earth at the rate of five inches per year. So what good is that knowledge?
Śyāmasundara: If Darwin's theory is correct, some new form of cancer will evolve which will survive...
Prabhupāda: Why? Any disease will be (indistinct). You can check the disease. Therefore our conclusion is that however scientifically you advanced you make, you cannot stop birth, death, old age and disease. That is our conclusion. So why should we waste our time for that purpose? We are utilizing our time, and after giving up this body we may go back to home, back to Godhead. That is our business. But everyone has to give up his body. Mr. Darwin and his company will give up this body like cats and dog. We shall give up this body for higher elevation of life. Therefore our philosophy is better, far better than all these things.
Śyāmasundara: There's a corollary to his theory of evolution that our standards of morality have also evolved from primitive stages. For instance, in a group, within a group of apelike creatures who were normally fighting with each other for dominance, one may develop the quality of sympathy for someone else. So by that sympathy he cooperates with the other person and together they survive when the others die. So that evolution of sympathy, morality, love, compassion—the good qualities of the human being—have evolved due to necessity, evolution, survival of the fittest.
Karandhara: The thing is this whole perspective of evolution... There doesn't have to be a sequence, that one came before the other. They all were there.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: ...hasn't evolved. The ancient Greeks had a much higher standard of morality than the British or Darwin's time.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) degrading (indistinct). We see every day, every moment.
Prabhupāda: So we have seen in our childhood, they're also. No voucher or receipt. I'll tell you one little story. My father was dealing in cloth. So supposing he has come, my customer, he wants so many things.
Śyāmasundara: Darwin did that. He made the appearance and disappearance of animals' bodies seem so mechanically arranged that God was removed from the picture, and it appeared as if combinations of ingredients created animals and they evolved from each other.
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. Combination means God. He is combining. Combination does not take automatically. Suppose I am cooking. There are so many ingredients for cooking—they are not combined together. I am the cooker; I am cooking, first of all oil, and the spices, then the rice, then the dahl, then the water. In this way nice foodstuff is coming out.
Hayagrīva: This is Darwin. Darwin's conception of evolution rests on the contention that there is a real genetic change from generation to generation. In other words, Darwin rejects the platonic igos. Igos is the Greek for idea, type or essence. There is no human igos, human type or essence. There are no fixed species. This is in contradistinction to the platonic idea that the species exist in essence or, as Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, bījam, "I am the seed of all existences." Darwin would not recognize any bījam, or seed, particular type for any species. Rather, he sees shifting, evolving physical forms constantly changing.
Prabhupāda: The different forms are already there. Just like the form of monkeys also there, the form of man is also there, other animals, other birds, beasts. So he has no clear conception how the evolution is taking place, neither he has any idea about whose evolution. He simply takes account of the body. A body never evolves.
Prabhupāda: The different forms are already there. Just like the form of monkeys also there, the form of man is also there, other animals, other birds, beasts. So he has no clear conception how the evolution is taking place, neither he has any idea about whose evolution. He simply takes account of the body. A body never evolves. It is the soul within the body—he evolves, transmigrates from one body to another. Just we see that a child becomes a boy. The..., if the child is dead, it no more evolves. So it is the soul that is concerned. The soul is within the body, and he desires and evolves. That is Vedic conception and that is life. For example, if a man is within an apartment, the man desires to change the apartment to another apartment, it does not mean that the apartment evolves, but the man desires a change, and he goes to different apartment. That is (indistinct). So Darwin has no such conception. He has described the idea of evolution from the Vedas in his own way.
Prabhupāda: That is education. Every individual person, he is a soul, and he has got a particular type of body. Especially in the human body he requires education. What is this animal and what is higher than human race, these are Vedic description. So there are 8,400,000 different forms of life, and the body is being evolved. The body is machine, and the individual soul desires and he gets a suitable body made by material nature under the order of God. This is Vedic idea, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is existing within the core of everyone's heart, and the individual soul is desiring something, and upon the order God he is given a machine made by material nature.
Hayagrīva: From this, Bergson concludes that we are evolving, that we learn from an accumulation of experience, that we cannot, in a sense, repeat the same mistake twice. He writes, "From this survival of the past, it follows that consciousness cannot go through the same state twice. Circumstances may still be the same, but they will act no longer on the same person since they find him in a new moment of his history. Our personality, which is being built up each instant with its accumulated experience, changes without ceasing. Thus our personality shoots, grows and ripens without ceasing."
Prabhupāda: No. There is no cessation because the soul is eternal, so his consciousness is also eternal. But it is changing according to the circumstances, association, time, place, and the party changes. Therefore good association required. Sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83).
Hayagrīva: Bergson sees the universe itself as expanding and evolving. He writes, "For the universe is not made but is being made continually."
Prabhupāda: Yes, we also say that, that universes came from the breathing of Mahā-Viṣṇu. So just like we can imagine from breathing with the air, something may come very minute form, then it develops.
Hayagrīva: Bigger then?
Prabhupāda: Bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger.
Hayagrīva: Well then Bergson is actually incorrect in saying that the universe is evolving toward some grand harmony.
Prabhupāda: That is his imagination. What does he mean by this harmony? Just like I am increasing, your body is increasing, your child's body is increasing. So everybody's body is increasing, so where is the, what does he mean by harmony? It is increasing and it will dwindle and it will finish. That is material nature. If you say this process of increasing and dwindling is going on, that is harmony, then there is no harm, but the, individually everything is going under this process of increasing and decreasing and at the end finished.
Hayagrīva: But that a man may evolve to a state like unto the demigods. Is that a possibility?
Prabhupāda: What is demigod? That, there is a difference between demigod and a man. A demigod is in the better position, that's all. Just like a high-court judge and layman. Both of them human being, but the high-court judge in a better position, that's all, but both of them human being.
Hayagrīva: But that's not the purpose of the universe.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is, the exact quote is, "That order is gradually one and always in the making." In other words, the universe is evolving toward ultimate unification, which is never fully achieved.
Prabhupāda: That means he has no knowledge, poor fund of knowledge. The universe is complete, but he is not complete. The same example: The deaf husband is considering the wife is deaf, because he cannot hear the response given by the wife. So because he has got imperfect knowledge, he has no knowledge of God, he has no knowledge that the... God has created this universe, and because it is created by the perfect being, it is also perfect.
Śyāmasundara: Because his vision of a unified universe is evolving, then he ascribes that the universe itself is false...
Prabhupāda: No. The universe is not evolving. It is perfect since it was created. But because we have no perfect knowledge, you are thinking it is evolving.
Śyāmasundara: Because he... Because my observations of the universe are evolving toward a unity. This is his criterion for truth, that only that which I can perceive is true, or which I can experience.
Śyāmasundara: So perhaps due to Darwin, these men, they don't think that truth exists independently of man's experience. They think that truth is developing as man evolves.
Prabhupāda: No. Because he is imperfect, he does not know what is truth. The same experience: because he cannot hear, other who is hearing is answering and he cannot hear him, so he thinks that he is dumb, deaf. Ātmavan manyate jagat. The difficulty is that everyone thinks others on his own standard. If a fool, he thinks others fool. So that is not the fact. We have to take experience from a person whose experience nobody can surpass. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, vedāhaṁ samatītāni vartamānāni bhaviṣyāni (BG 7.26).
Prabhupāda: He is identifying the body with the soul. And our preaching is different—that we are not this body. Our first principle of understanding is to know that we are not this body. I am different from this body and I am transmigrating from one body to another. That they cannot express. They are explaining that the body is evolving from this body to that body. That is the basic misunderstanding.
Śyāmasundara: He says that whatever exists is subject to space and time and to these categories. However, evolution is progressing and new emergents appear in all the qualities which are envisioned to the mystic qualities. That the living entity, or life, he says that it could evolve into new things, other things, other than what we know about because it is continually emerging, evolution is continually emerging to something new.
Prabhupāda: So?
Śyāmasundara: Does this follow with...
Śyāmasundara: The conclusion is that everything is evolving into ever newer and newer forms, and in the future that...
Prabhupāda: Old order changes, yielding place to new. This law?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. But this new form which may appear in the future, we may have no idea about it now. We may not be able to say what it is, what it will be like.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that man may evolve to a demigod platform in the future.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: That he will have super consciousness, this and that.
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yānti deva-vratā devaṇ (BG 9.25). If you become fond of the demigods, you go to the demigods. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ. You can go to the Pitṛloka. Or bhūtejyā, you can remain in this material world.
Śyāmasundara: It's not that accidentally nature will evolve a race of demigods on this planet.
Prabhupāda: No, no. There is nothing accidental. It is not that accidental, one becomes high-court judge. (laughter) This is nonsense. Accidental(ly) one becomes a very high grade medical man. This is all childish proposal. They have no sense even. It is all childish. Where is the, in our practical life, where is the evidence that accidentally one has become like this? Is there any evidence of how they propose these childish things? I do not know. And they are passing as philosophers.
Śyāmasundara: So you don't see that the whole world will evolve to this.
Prabhupāda: No. That is a nonsense proposal. It is a nonsense proposal. Just like sometimes we are questioned by some rascals that "Swamijī, if everyone becomes God conscious, goes to back to home, then who will remain here?" (laughter) Just see the nonsense. He is anxious, who will remain here. He is not anxious for himself. (laughter) It is an argument that "Everyone becomes honest, then who will go to the jail? (laughter) To keep up the jail is very important business. You see? So these are foolish questions. You see?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the fact. He is right. That is Vedic conclusion. Sarva-yoniṣu, all different forms of life, there is soul, part and parcel of God. How some foolish person can think of animal has no soul? What is the reason? There is no very strong argument. The animals may be less intelligent. A child may be less intelligent than the father; that does not mean there is no soul. This gross and doggish mentality, animal mentality, is killing the human civilization. Now they have degraded so much that they think that the embryo has no soul. In this way man is being put into darker and darkest region of ignorance. Everyone has soul. That is real. We get it from Kṛṣṇa: sarva-yoniṣu. In different forms of life the soul is there, undoubtedly. That is real conception of soul. Evolution means he is evolving from one lower grade of body to another, higher grade of body, and in this way by evolution he comes to the human form of life.
| Page Title: | Evolve (Lectures) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 23 of Nov, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=81, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 81 |