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Evidence (Conversations 1976 - 1977)

Expressions researched:
"evidence" |"evidenced" |"evidences" |"evident" |"evidential" |"evidentially" |"evidently"

Conversations and Morning Walks

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1976, Nellore:

Prabhupāda: This is idea. Mano-rathena, by mental speculation, asato dhavato, they will come to materialism. As soon as they will hover over mental concoction, they will remain in the material pool, because mind is subtle form of matter.

Acyutānanda: Also, in their evidences by which they base their dialectic discussions, have they regarded the Vedic scriptures? They have avoided them very conveniently.

Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of dialectic discussion. Suppose I am discussing, you are discussing something, but if I am imperfect, you are imperfect, what is the value of such discussion? That is the point. The party discussing something, whether he is perfect? If he is not perfect, then go on discussing. We first of all say that any conditioned soul is defective, and that is admitted. They say, "We are not perfect." "I think," they say. "In my opinion," they say. Never they say, the so-called scientists, "definite." And they cannot say it.

Mahamsa: That is like Dr. Frog's philosophy when they speculate.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply speculation. So that kind of discussion, what is the value?

Morning Walk -- February 6, 1976, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Although it's missing...

Prabhupāda: "Missing" means they know only, "Oh, he knows."

Hṛdayānanda: When I was preaching in California, one very famous anthropologist came to speak there, and he gave a new theory about the origin of the species. So he said... Before the audience he said that "Actually we have very little evidence of this theory."

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hṛdayānanda: He said that "We have very little evidence for this theory," but he said that "All of you should not be disturbed because our previous theory, we had no evidence whatsoever. (laughter) So this is an improvement."

Prabhupāda: He admitted. "Previous theory, that was nonsense," and still the nonsense going on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "So don't be disturbed."

Prabhupāda: Yes. "So you are dealing with all nonsense. Don't be disappointed."

Morning Walk -- March 7, 1976, Mayapur:

Satsvarūpa: But they say that..., When we say that everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, they say that's also "perhaps, maybe." They don't see...

Prabhupāda: No, we have got evidence. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). We have got evidence.

Satsvarūpa: As we don't accept theirs, they don't accept ours.

Prabhupāda: You don't accept... You don't... Why shall I accept you? You don't accept me, I don't accept you. Why you become authority?

Guru-kṛpā: Then they say "Finished. Get out."

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, my question is that "Why they become atheists, a little knowledge, so-called scientists?"

Madhudviṣa: They have to become atheists.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Madhudviṣa: They have to become atheist. If they don't become atheists, then they can't play their games anymore. The idea of their research finishes as soon as you admit that there is God. But if you say, "There's no God," then they can research. It was explained that...

Prabhupāda: They can continue to befool you, that, and take money. And as soon as you don't give them money, there is no research. Then they starve.

Morning Walk -- March 16, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: If you think your leader is mistaken, then you are mistaken. (laughter)

Mahendra: Like a mirror. You see a mistake but it's yourself.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: The leader of mistake-therefore immediately gives evidence from śāstra. What is the use of quoting from the śāstra? "Just to prove that I am not mistaken, here is the proof."

Madhudviṣa: They would say that there is a way of life which is perfect, but all men are imperfect. There is a way of life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore they... Because you are imperfect, therefore you have to accept the leadership of a perfect person.

Madhudviṣa: They will say no one is perfect.

Prabhupāda: No, that is the... That is your ignorance.

Morning Walk -- April 17, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Then the same theory that "This side of stool is dry. It is good." (laughter) Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because it going to be manure, manure the food.

Prabhupāda: "And the other side is moist; therefore it is bad."

Dr. Patel: Yes, sir. That type of stool which goes and manures the crop, that is good, evidently.

Prabhupāda: No, no, after all, stool, this side or that side.... The whole conclusion is that unless one is surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he remains in darkness.

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupāda: That is the point. Therefore we are trying to enlighten people to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Patel: And a scientist trying to unearth the secret of nature means Kṛṣṇa. He is doing work for Kṛṣṇa, and he cannot be...

Prabhupāda: No, no, everyone has to work for Kṛṣṇa. Just like a prisoner in the prison house. He is also working for government, but he is forced to do it. Then nobody can escape Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: There is no use taking part in that meeting. Simply take a book stall. "Bhakti-yoga books." Give a signboard, "Bhakti-yoga books." And give the picture of Dhruva Mahārāja, five-years-old boy, executing bhakti-yoga alone in the forest. We have got meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). That is real yoga. And Bhagavad-gītā, yoginām api... These ślokas, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā (BG 6.47). One who's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, he is first-class yogi. Give one picture of the devotees chanting in a very nice place, and give evidence, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā: "This, first-class yogi. Here is first-class yogi." That will be our preaching. Dhruva Mahārāja is practicing yoga. There are many others. The highest perfection is Rādhārāṇī, that simply crying, "Kṛṣṇa has gone to Mathurā, not coming back." That is the..., the whole day and night crying. Who can perform this yoga? So if you, if possible, draw pictures.... Satchidananda, he is also a leader? He has?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Guru-kṛpā: Yogi Bhajan

Prabhupāda: Yogi Bhajan also?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kriyananda, Swami Nada Brahmananda from Hrishikesh, Swami Ajaya, Ph.D., from Madison, Wisconsin. (laughter) It's a small college town in America. Yogi Bhajan? There's many others. A lot of Indian doctors from Canada, India and America.

Prabhupāda: So you can give yogi import that "Hare Kṛṣṇa is the greatest of all yoga systems."

Room Conversation -- May 2, 1976, Fiji:

Prabhupāda: Yes, śraddhā. That faith increase, and when it is increased so much that he fully understands, "By worshiping Kṛṣṇa, everything is done," that is first-class faith. Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya (Cc. Madhya 22.62). If he becomes fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is first-class, means fulfillment of faith. In the beginning it might be doubtful, neophyte. But when that is, that faith is fixed up, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality," that is the fulfillment of faith. Faith also there are different stages, improvement. Devotional service means different grades of faith. Today I am in one stage of faith, next day another stage, next day another stage, next day another stage. And when you come to the stage that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), oh, that is final. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That takes time. And quickly also, if one is fortunate. If one is intelligent—"The śāstra says, 'Vāsudeva is everything,' so why not take Vāsudeva everything?"—then he gains the result immediately. And if he thinks, "All right, let me see for some time," so he may waste his time, but the point is the same. Point is the same, but he has not developed his faith to such extent. You have to wait. And intelligent person, he says, "Why shall I wait? Let me take finally vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That business is finished." Sa mahātmā. Therefore it is said, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That kind of staunch faith is not very easy. It is for the great personality. Immediately accepts. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Immediately accepts: "Yes." Then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is not very easily done. That means yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām (BG 7.28). He is completely free from all reaction of sinful life. Puṇya-karmaṇām—he is only engaged in pious activities. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānām, te dvandva-moha... He has no more doubt. Dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ. He has no doubt. "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person." That's it. That's all. If you take by argument, reason, you may waste your time. But if you are intelligent, you can take it on the evidence of mahājano yena gataḥ, all the mahājanas.

Morning Walk -- May 27, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Sentiment, there is... In your relationship with your friends and father and mother is sentiment. That is another thing. But you must know "He's my father," "He's my mother," "He's my son." Sentiment is there even in ordinary relationship. You cannot avoid sentiment. Just like we're dancing. That is also sentiment, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." That is sentiment. But that does not mean because he's dancing in sentiment, he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Sentiment must be there. That is ecstasy, enjoyment. But not blind sentiment. (break) ...you do not know, know from Kṛṣṇa. Anybody can say "I do not know who is my father." And if the real father says, "I'm your father, my son," then how he can prove? How he does not know? If he says, "No, I don't believe you that you are my father," then what is the..., what is evidence? He knows. The mother also says, "Yes, he's your father." " No, I don't believe." What is the evidence? The father is saying, "I'm father." The mother is saying, "Yes, he's your father." But the rascal is saying, "No, I don't believe it."

Morning Walk -- May 29, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: And still they accept it?

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: What do you think?

Devotee (2): There's no evidence, because you've explained many times that an orange always comes from an orange tree, a banana always comes from a banana tree, man always comes from man, and monkey always comes from monkey. We find that actually things are not happening by chance. That they're very much controlled.

Prabhupāda: There is. Nobody can deny it. Only this tenth-class man will deny it. Even third-class man, fourth class, he'll not deny. But what is that intelligence, one should make it a science. Intelligence there is no doubt about it.

Devotee (2): There's another theory that God created the universe, and then things are just happening haphazardly. There's no actual design or ultimate plan of creation. Simply He created, and things were set in motion.

Prabhupāda: That is another foolish notion. Just like the seed, banyan tree seed, every plan is there: how the tree will grow, how the fruits will flower, flowers will come. Everything is there. That is intelligence. Within a small seed everything is there potency. Aśakti vividaiva. Sarvavidya. It comes certainly.

Garden Conversation -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: It is observation. That is, a child is growing to another body. So the soul of the child is transferred to another body. What more proof he wants?

Rāmeśvara: There's no visible evidence of the soul.

Prabhupāda: This is visible. Your child, a baby, is on the lap, and after one year, he has got a different body. The old, the old body, on the lap, is finished. Now he is walking. It is another body. Why it is not visible?

Rāmeśvara: They say all matter goes through the stage of development and destruction.

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, this is to be answered, that this child, when he was born he was very small, lying on the lap of the mother. Now he's jumping. Now that body which was lying on the lap of the mother is no more existing. He has got another body which is jumping. But the mother knows that "It is my same child." Therefore the same soul is there; the body has changed.

Rāmeśvara: But they argue that there is no soul; it is simply the changing of matter.

Prabhupāda: The changing.... When the child is born dead, why he does not grow? (laughter) Therefore they are rascals.

Morning Walk -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles:

Rāmeśvara: It is written in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta that when Lord Caitanya entered this universe, the entire universe was blessed, or benefited. So I'm wondering how Lord Caitanya's movement is going on on other planets other than this planet. Is there some organized saṅkīrtana?

Prabhupāda: Yes. How other planetary system is going on, you do not know, but we can guess it is going on like this. Anumāna. Pratyakṣa anumāna. One thing is direct perception, another by guessing. Pratyakṣa anumāna and śabda and śruti, aitihya. There are so many evidences. Harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya prabhu...

Rāmeśvara: Devotees once told me you said that the demigods like this movement very much so that they're standing in line to take their birth in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They like to come here on this planet. Just like you Kṛṣṇa conscious men, you are very much enthusiastic to go to India. India has no material attraction, but why our men wanted to go to India in spite of so many difficulties? Similarly, in the higher planet, heavenly planet, they are so much engrossed with material happiness that there is no facility. But here there is facility, in this earth, Bhūrloka. Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām (BG 2.44). One who is too much attached to material convenience and everything, they have no opportunity for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Room Conversation -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: What is that scientific?

Jay Warner: Through empirical evidence, through evidence...

Prabhupāda: This is evidence. I ask you to show me your childhood body. Where it is? Can you show? That is finished. So if the childhood body finished, you get another body, boyhood body. Similarly, the conclusion should be that after this body—I am old man; it will be finished—then I'll get another body.

Jay Warner: That makes sense.

Prabhupāda: Very common sense. But we are so dull-headed we cannot understand.

Jay Warner: I am so what?

Prabhupāda: We are so dull-headed.

Devotees: We, dull-headed.... (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Just like in the, what is called, movie spool....

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Film strip.

Prabhupāda: Film, yes. There are hundreds of bodies in the film, and when they are played, it seems that it's the same—one man is moving—but actually, in the film there are hundreds of bodies, but it is changing so swiftly it appears one.

Morning Walk -- June 16, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: That's all right, then why don't you follow Christ? Christ says "Thou shall not kill," then why do you interpret? "Christ ate meat, therefore we shall open slaughterhouse," this is rascaldom. This rascaldom (indistinct). Because maybe somewhere he has eaten fish, therefore, by following in his footsteps, we shall open slaughterhouse and kill thousands of animals daily. The evidence is Christ has eaten fish. Do they not say that? And they are Christians. All others are sinful (indistinct), that's all right, why don't you kill (indistinct). Several times these Christians (indistinct).

Devotee: Everyone in the world is becoming tenth-class men, but Śrīla Prabhupāda is turning the whole thing around. Had you not come, there would be no hope for the whole world.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They say that "Thou shalt not kill," that's okay, but this is an impossible instruction.

Prabhupāda: This is rascaldom.

Hariśauri: That's a common philosophy. The Ten Commandments are there, but they're an ideal that no one can ever achieve.

Prabhupāda: Then you go to hell, rascaldom. (last two minutes of tape indistinct) (end)

Interview with Professors O'Connell, Motilal and Shivaram -- June 18, 1976, Toronto:

Indian man: It must be understood literally, you say.

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Suppose you have got some philosophy. So you can explain your philosophy differently. Why should you take Bhagavad-gītā and explain your philosophy? Is it honesty?

Indian man: All the ācāryas have been doing it.

Prabhupāda: No ācāryas are doing it. All lower-class men. No ācāryas do it. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, these are ācāryas. Śaṅkarācārya, Caitanya, they never did it. Outsiders, who did not care for the authority of the ācārya, they did it. Otherwise, we are the ācārya sampradāya. They'll never do that. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. Ācāryopāsanam. That is bona fide process of knowledge. Ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam. Ācāryopāsanam. This is the process of knowledge. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). This is the ācārya. Ācārya will never interpret things like that. You see Rāmānujācārya's comments on Bhagavad-gītā. Nothing changed. But in every śloka he has given evidence from the Vedas, from the Upaniṣads. Ācārya will never change.

Jayādvaita: In the list of items of knowledge, "approaching a bona fide spiritual master." Ācāryopāsanam.

Prabhupāda: This is ācārya.

Room Conversation -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: White spot means decomposed. Fungus. Nānā yoni brāhmaṇa kare kadārya bhakṣaṇa kari' tāra janma adho pate yāya.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we can point out all the defects in their system but then they say "But there is no proof that such a perfect society has ever existed as you speak of. We have no evidence that such a perfect society exists."

Prabhupāda: You can see, come and see with us. Live in our New Vrindaban, you'll see.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Then they say "Well, that is all right for you, but that is not practical for everyone."

Kīrtanānanda: Why not? We are human beings, and you are human being.

Prabhupāda: So what is not practical for you, our system, your system is also not practical for us. We cannot live in this way. Anyway, if you can maintain a perfect community of plain living, high thinking, that is sufficient. We do not canvass, but naturally they will see that this is convenient. After all, they are human beings. They are learning. So that is part of our business to preach, but to practice personally, that is our main business. To practice personally, that is our main business. Not that everyone will be preacher, but at least his own life be perfect. What is this kijariya?

Kulaśekhara: I don't know if it's spelled right, Prabhupāda.

Hari-śauri: Kī jaya.

Kīrtanānanda: Kī jaya

Prabhupāda: Kī jaya. Oh.

Room Conversation -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Hari-śauri: What was that again, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Niyataḥ. You should read Bhagavad-gītā so thoroughly for everything. That is good lawyer. Good lawyer means in the court, immediately give reference to the judge, "My Lordship, such and such law, under section...this is there." He's a good lawyer. Good lawyer means he immediately gives reference to the section on which he's talking. Immediately judgement is there. If there is previous authority and it is recorded in the lawbook, then he doesn't require to argue anymore, the evidence is there. Even in other court, if some judgement is there, they'll be accepted. This is the law. So a good lawyer means he gives references from different courts, the judgement makes easier. Instead of proceeding for a long time, he gives reference—"Here is the judgement, you see," and immediately...

Dhṛṣṭadyumna:

niyataḥ kuru karma tvaṁ
karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ
śarīra-yatrāpi ca te
na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ

"Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean to keep a set of men lazy, who cannot work. That is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone must work to his capacity. Prescribed duties. They accuse us that we are escaping. Huh? What is that? We do not escape. We are always busy.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The smṛtis are based on the śrutis?

Prabhupāda: Yes, smṛti... Bhagavad-gītā is considered smṛti. So Bhagavad-gītā also says: satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). Śruti-smṛti-purāṇadi (BRS 1.2.101). Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa: Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). And it is practiced by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam (SB 11.5.32). Kṛṣṇaṁ varṇayati. Always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So these are the evidences. So introduce this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Everyone will be purified.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is smṛti more than just rules of conduct?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Smṛti means... The Vedas are considered as, taken as śruti. But simply by hearing one cannot understand. Therefore smṛtis, they have explained. Purayati iti purāṇa. Complete. The Vedic mantra is not always understood. Just like the Vedānta mantra, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). This is very short cut. But Bhāgavata explains, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ. Explanation. The smṛti is explanation. So either you take śruti or smṛti, subject matter is the same. But these are the evidences. Śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-pāñcarātriki-vidhiṁ vinā (BRS 1.2.101). You cannot be purified or become actually God conscious without reference to the śruti-smṛti. We are pushing on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is not whimsically. It is based on śruti-smṛti-pāñcarātriki-vidhi. Therefore it is becoming effective.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is no question then of, as he says, "new smṛti."

Prabhupāda: No. New smṛti, they may take it, "new smṛti." But smṛti is smṛti. It is not new. You have to give reference to the past śruti-smṛti. Otherwise, it is not... Veda pramāṇa, śabda pramāṇa. Otherwise there is no evidence. It is invalid, not valid. You cannot change the original śruti-smṛti, but you have to take the timely recommendation. Just like Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva... (CC Adi 17.21). This is the only method. You take it. But this is śruti-smṛti-pramāṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Then they say that if this is the method, then how does Deity worship fit into the scheme?

Prabhupāda: You can avoid even Deity worship, but you cannot avoid chanting.

Devotee: Their idea is to abolish Deity worship. They consider it antiquated.

Prabhupāda: If you want... If you want... Why you should try to avoid this? That means you are disregarding the śruti-smṛti. But that is not the policy, that you should avoid it. But if you..., it is not possible... Just like it is not possible to introduce the Deity worship everywhere, anywhere. It doesn't matter. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is not avoiding. It is the circumstance that does not make very favorable. Just like I did not introduce the Deity worship in the beginning. That was not possible. But when there is favorable condition we introduced. That is not avoidance. That is conditional. But especially chanting, that is possible in any condition of life. That is possible.

'Life Comes From Life' Slideshow Discussions -- July 3, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Sadāpūta: So mathematics shows that chance alone would never begin to produce the things that go into life, because this, say, is just for one protein, but it's estimated in the simplest cell that they experiment with that there are some three thousand proteins. This is what they estimate. And in a human, in a single cell of the human body, they estimate three hundred thousand, or even three million. It's just an estimate. But it shows that chance is completely unrealistic. Now the scientists will say that both chance and natural laws somehow mysteriously go together in what they call natural selection to produce living structures. In the next slide, this is also a calculation, and it shows that that is not correct either, at least as far as the mathematics goes. What this says is suppose you look at the earth and you're going to wait four point five billion years—that's what they estimate is the age of the earth—and ask what is the chance of finding a given organized structure. And mathematically there's a thing called information theory, and you can show that the chance of getting an organized structure with a high level of information goes down exponentially, so that for an amount of information higher than that of the laws that cause these things to move, the chance goes down practically to zero. So it wouldn't happen. So this gets kind of complicated, but there's a basic point behind it; namely it indicates that the natural laws that are causing things, like that list of those laws, must already have in them, built into them, whatever is going to be manifested. That is, if some given structure can be manifested in the material world, that means the laws that are causing things must already have at least that much built into them. But their understanding of natural laws, the laws are too simple, too short to have that kind of thing built into them. So there's that argument. We'll go on to the next one. This is some mathematical formulas related to that. I don't think we should dwell on that. This slide right here gives an example of the kind of structures you find even in simple organisms. This is a bacterium. When they look at it under a microscope, they can see that this bacterium has a reversible motor built into it, and this motor spins a spiral flagellum, and by spinning it it propels the bacteria through the water, just like a submarine. So this very sophisticated motor is built into the wall of the bacterium. So that shows the kind of structures for which designs would have to be there. Actually, the scientific explanation, the way that they explain how this comes about, is completely impossible, because they would say that either by chance it came about all at once—and the chances are way too small, so that would never happen—or else it would have to come by small stages somehow. But what would be a small stage in the formation of a workable motor? Can't even think of how that would work. So it doesn't make much sense. So what we wanted to argue was that these living structures are very highly complex, they have a very great amount of information needed to specify them, and then mathematically it follows that this evolution process can't happen, because the probability is way down, it's something impossible. So we wanted to argue that. The next slide—whoops, we're going the wrong way, there. We wanted to compare some structures. This is the chemist's idea of what a diamond..., the top picture is a chemist's idea of what the structure of a diamond looks like. It's based on very simple repeating patterns. It's reasonable perhaps that chemical pushes and pulls could produce a simple design like this just by pulling the molecules together. The lower thing is a structure for graphite, which is another simple design built on hexagons. But on the other hand, in living systems you have things like this. (shows slide) According to the way they've analyzed it, there are chemical structures of this complexity. So we'd like to argue that this requires a very large amount of information to specify this thing, and so the simple natural laws couldn't account for this. On the other hand, it's very reasonable to suppose that an intelligent designer can account for things like that. These protein structures that Svarūpa Dāmodara was pointing out, it's not just any old structure, but it performs a very specific function within the cell, just like a little automatic machine of some kind. So we'd like to argue that the chance and molecular forces theory won't explain things like this, but to say that there is an intelligent designer would be a sensible explanation. The next slide, this shows some of the complexities of what goes on inside a cell, and it's only a fraction of what is there. It's hard to read, but each little bit of print refers to some very complicated chemical reaction involving big molecules like the one in the last slide. So there are hundreds of reactions like that on this one page, and this page is one out of four from a chart that we found detailing some of these things. This metabolism goes on even in the most primitive cells like this bacterium, and yet it's only a fraction of the total of what goes on. The scientists will admit they've only made a fractional study of all that's going on in these cells. So that kind of argument is one line of reasoning we'd like to present. (another slide) Now this refers to another thing. We'd like to describe the concept of consciousness as being something not material—nonphysical and nonchemical. And it turns out that actually in modern physics that's already a basic principle, and it's been that way for the last fifty or sixty years, but that's not widely admitted or taught in the schools. But actually in modern physics, it's called quantum mechanics. They realize that in order to describe physical processes you have to include the observer in the picture; you can't describe these things without accounting for the observer, and so they made an analysis. This was done by von Neumann, who was one of these physicists. He analyzed the difference between the observer and the observed. So here we have a man looking through, say, a microscope at some object, and you can see that in this case you can draw the line between the observer and the observed. So the man is observing the microscope plus object. And physically there are, according to the physicist's idea, there are these equations, represented by number one, equation number one, which describe all the molecules and forces of interaction on the observed side. But there's another kind of equation that goes in quantum mechanics, which corresponds to the observer's side, and this equation is completely different from the first equation. So this indicates that the observer must be something different in nature from the observed. Now the next slide shows here the boundary between the observer and the observed is moved. It's kind of arbitrary. You can move the boundary back so now the observed becomes the eyeball and the microscope and the object, and the observer is still on the other side. And the basic idea is you can move this boundary back, step by step, and on one side you can put, at least in principle, more and more of the parts of the body into the observed system, but on the other side you still have the observer, and he continues to be described by an equation that can't be reduced to the force laws that are used to describe the observed. So the conclusion is that the observer must be something nonphysical. He's not actually part of that physical body at all. So that's actually basic in quantum mechanics. So we wanted to present that. Now this slide... There's another line of evidence here. It's the inspiration, and Śrīla Prabhupāda has said that intelligence is the form direction of Supersoul. So it's interesting, it's really striking to observe how various people create things in mathematics and science and art, like that. It's very striking. So we made two examples here. This one is a mathematician names Gauss. He lived in the nineteenth century, and his concern was to solve mathematical problems. The interesting thing is that in a very difficult mathematical problem, the person never solves it by figuring it out consciously, step by step. But what happens is that he tries very hard to figure it out for a long time, and nothing happens, and then all of a sudden the answer comes to him. So it's hard to read that quote. This is a quotation by this Gauss describing how that happened to him.

Devotee: "I've succeeded not on account of my painful effort, but by the grace of God. Like a sudden flash of lightning, the riddle happened to be solved. I myself cannot say but when the conducting thread which connected what I previously knew with what made my success possible."

Prabhupāda: So the chance theory is the grace of God.

Morning Walk -- July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: India, Vedic civilization never cared for anything which is searched out by imperfect human beings. They never cared for it. Because he knows the man who is searching after, he's imperfect. Whatever he'll do, that is imperfect. Therefore neglect it. That is Vedic civilization. Śruti-pramāṇa: whether it is evident from the śrutis, from the Vedas. Otherwise, they reject it.

Vipina: Prabhupāda, if spiritual life and Kṛṣṇa are stronger than māyā, then how is it that religion was ever overcome to the extent it is now? In Kali-yuga it's so much neglected, whereas in past ages we learn that it wasn't neglected. How is it that māyā got such a stronghold?

Prabhupāda: There is a time, just like young man and old man. Old man is dwindling, young man is growing. It is a question of time. Kali-yuga is bad time. Therefore māyā has got chance to flourish.

Hari-śauri: Eight minutes to seven, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If those people in India who are aware of the actual science, though, if they had come out and spoken against material scientists...

Prabhupāda: I am speaking.

Vṛṣākapi: You're the only one though, Prabhupāda.

Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one problem we face with students and scientists, when we present Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy, they say...

Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't condemn the scientists. We say that "Take credit as much as you can. But why do you defy the existence of God?" That is our protest.

Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla -- July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Either you accept this Kṛṣṇa's statement, or you reject Kṛṣṇa. But He says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). What do you want more?

Guest: Well, Prabhupādajī, if anyone has gone to Gītā and if he is still bothered by the historical evidence, I don't think he has read Gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest: So we should never really be bothered by this question of historical...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we have concentrated on Gītā. This movement—when I registered this association, so when I wrote "Kṛṣṇa consciousness," some friend said, "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" But no, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are particularly preaching Kṛṣṇa's teaching. Kṛṣṇa is God, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But if you think that there is another God then you may do your business. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We cannot allow any interpretation of Kṛṣṇa. That is our (indistinct). (aside:) Yes?

Guest (2): There is a Swami, Gangesvaranandaji, (indistinct) Vedas (indistinct) books that Kṛṣṇa's name in the Vedas is mentioned.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Devotee: Kṛṣṇa's name in the Vedas is already there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Evening Darsana -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: So this is confirmation that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if we accept Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then you have to accept Him as He says.

Guest (2): As a great power, yes.

Prabhupāda: Not great power, but greatest power. Nobody is greater than Him. That is accepted by the direct listener of Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna. And he is giving evidences of Vyāsadeva, Asita, Devala, Nārada, they are authorities. And in the recent years, the ācāryas Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they have all accepted. And He speaks also. Then where is doubt? Where is doubt?

Guest (2): No, I just want to clear this thing, that thing I accept, sir, this thing that it is a great power, the supreme power.

Prabhupāda: Not a great, the great power. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). There is no more greater power than Him. That is His position.

Guest (2): My point is, sometimes this, a difference comes in this thing. Suppose a man of other religion says, okay...

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not question of religion. It is a question of God. God is great. That is accepted by all religions. So if Kṛṣṇa is great, then He is God. Where is the argument?

Guest (2): Then they didn't come, just like you stated, that...

Prabhupāda: Then you have to study Kṛṣṇa, that where is the great, the only great. Then you'll understand. God is great, there is... No religion will differ in this connection. But if find that "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the greatest," then you have to accept. There is no other argument. So I'll take a little time go to shower. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Evening Darsana -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Guest (3): Was it not true also Śaṅkarācārya Swamiji who said vande kṛṣṇa jagat-guru?

Prabhupāda: Yes, bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindam...

Guest (3): Vande Kṛṣṇa jagat-guru.

Prabhupāda: So he's the leader of the impersonalists, he accepts kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Sa bhagavān svayam kṛṣṇa. Then what to speak of the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. Rāmānujācārya has given Bhagavad-gītā comments, every line Vedic evidence. You read Bhagavad-gītā commented by Rāmānujācārya, you'll find every line he has quoted from Vedas. So there is no doubt about it. Simply one has to study very intelligently about Kṛṣṇa, then he will come to the conclusion that He is God.

Guest (4) (Indian man): I'd like to ask a question, but I'm a little bit timid about doing so, but I will ask it. Would it be possible to think of.... Well, first I have to say that I tend to think of religions as personalities. Would it be possible...

Prabhupāda: Why?

Guest (3): All the religions.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why you think like that? You are not authority.

Room Conversation -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Chapter Three. "In this chapter the author has fully discussed the reason for the descent of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, after displaying His pastimes as Lord Kṛṣṇa, thought it wise to make His advent in the form of a devotee to explain personally the transcendental mellow reciprocations of service and love between Himself and His servants, friends, parents and fiancees. According to the Vedic literature, the foremost occupational duty for humanity in this age of Kali is nāma-saṅkīrtana, or congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The incarnation for this age especially preaches this process, but only Kṛṣṇa Himself can explain the confidential loving service performed in the four principal varieties of loving affairs between the Supreme Lord and His devotees. Lord Kṛṣṇa therefore personally appeared, with His plenary portions, as Lord Caitanya. As stated in this chapter, only for that purpose did Lord Kṛṣṇa appear personally in Navadvīpa in the form of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja has herein presented much authentic evidence from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and other scriptures to substantiate the identity of..."

Prabhupāda: You are reading Caitanya Mahāprabhu. About Nityānanda, see the contents? No, in the beginning. Chapter where is contents. Nityānanda-tattva.

Rūpānuga: "The Glories of Lord Nityānanda-Balarāma."

Prabhupāda: Fifth Chapter?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: "This chapter is chiefly devoted to describing the essential nature and glories of Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu.

Evening Darsana -- July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Bill Sauer: I agree. What we are, are the resulting images of the power of creation. We are the evidence that there is a creative power.

Dr. Sharma: And consequently, since we are only a manifestation of the total power...

Bill Sauer: That's right, we are a manifestation, an image of it.

Dr. Sharma: That's why you cannot... An electric bulbs, when they are turned on and off, the light is there, but it is very hard to say where the electrons are flowing into, which...

Bill Sauer: Well in our case, our electrons are flowing from one place, the sun, and the imagery in your magazine is just beautiful. It shows the imagery of the man and the sun, and what we are, scientifically, as you know, (devotees laugh) we are images of sun energy, and this is where electrons come from. And when the sun goes out, we go out, unless we go to another star where there is another sun.

Vipina: Bill, could you explain to Śrīla Prabhupāda how you think life is created?

Bill Sauer: How it is created?

Vipina: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Who is the creator?

Bill Sauer: Well, there is a creative force. The power of life is light, and you say (laughs) Godhead is light, nescience is darkness. I believe it, it's trite and very true, in my understanding.

Vipina: He thinks everything comes from light, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Bill Sauer: Now all the religions refer to God as light. Most of the religions, and science agrees. Light is that very fugitive bit of energy that allows life to be possible.

Prabhupāda: Unless there is fire, wherefrom the light comes?

Bill Sauer: From the fire in the sun.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the fire is the source of light.

Room Conversation -- July 10, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: They have never gone. Simply bluff. That is my point.

Ṛṣi-kumāra: Whenever they don't know something, they say it doesn't exist.

Prabhupāda: I have got evidence, our Vedic literature.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have other informations other than Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have other evidences?

Prabhupāda: We have evidence from astronomy, Jyoti-śāstra. Jyoti-śāstra.

Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Manasvī is here.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rādhāvallabha: Manasvī. Tell him to come in?

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sit down. Wherefrom you are coming?

Manasvī: New Jersey, Hoboken.

Prabhupāda: Where is your child?

Manasvī: She's downstairs.

Room Conversation -- July 10, 1976, New York:

Rādhāvallabha: They have here proof that his mantra is no different than any ordinary sound. It says "In a Stanford Research Institute experiment, a group of TM trainees was compared to a control group who had been taught a fake mantra that they believed would be effective. In both groups some subjects were able to bring unpleasant psychosomatic symptoms under control. Three of these dropped out of the TM training group. Their symptoms returned. Two dropped out of the control group; their symptoms came back too. Evidence like that suggests that whatever works in the TM system, it does not depend upon the mystical mantra."

Prabhupāda: Let their men come and talk with our men in a public meeting. Then people will understand what is the difference.

Evening Darsana -- July 11, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Go on, finish it.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal killing in the Vedas, Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas. This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted..."

Prabhupāda: Just like, you said that in the Vedas there is animal killing, therefore... (break) That was not killing. So, instead of wasting his time he said "I don't care for your Vedas. It is my order that you stop if you love me." You cannot open slaughterhouse giving reference to the Vedas, or any sacrifice either. The Jews, and everyone, the Muhammadans, they also make sacrifice. One day in the year they sacrifice. It's not that they recommend open a slaughterhouse. This is all nonsense, rākṣasa. That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing, there will be a class of men who will eat meat—to give them some concession. So this is recommended, "All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice." Amongst the Hindus, just like Kālī-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā, the animal eaters, they are given this concession, that "If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kālī," and this goddess Kālī-worshiping is recommended on the amāvasyā, the dark moon night, one day in a month, at the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he'll automatically give it up. "So much botheration, better give it up." Actually deny. "Yes, you can eat once in a month at the dead of night, when everyone will sleep, nobody can hear the screaming of the animal..." These are the recommendations. That is indirectly denying. If one is intelligent, he'll accept it, "Why so much botheration for eating meat? Better give it up."

Room Conversation -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: So tomorrow I shall take lunch at 1:00. That's all. Then, by 3:00 o'clock, I shall be ready. (to Indian man:) (Hindi?) Kṛṣṇa is preparing you to join this movement wholeheartedly. It is very nice. Now you have got it?

Jayādvaita: Yes. Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja quotes, ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). "All these incarnations of Godhead are either plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras, but Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself." Then he says, "The Bhāgavatam describes the symptoms and deeds of the incarnations in general and counts Śrī Kṛṣṇa among them. This made Sūta Gosvāmī greatly apprehensive. Therefore he distinguished each incarnation by its specific symptoms. All the incarnations of Godhead are plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras, but the primeval Lord is Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the fountainhead of all incarnations. An opponent may say, 'This is your interpretation, but actually the Supreme Lord is Nārāyaṇa, who is in the transcendental realm. He, Nārāyaṇa, incarnates as Lord Kṛṣṇa. This is the meaning of the verse as I see it. There is no need for further consideration.' To such a misguided interpreter we may reply, 'Why should you suggest such fallacious logic? An interpretation is never accepted as evidence if it opposes the principles of scripture. One should not state a predicate before its subject, for it cannot thus stand without proper support.' If I do not state a subject, I do not state a predicate. First I speak the former and then the latter. The predicate of a sentence is what is unknown to the reader, whereas the subject is what is known to him. For example, we may say, 'This vipra is a greatly learned man.' In this sentence, the vipra is the subject, and the predicate is his erudition. The man's being a vipra is known, but his erudition is unknown. Therefore the person is identified first and his erudition later. In the same way all these incarnations were known, but whose incarnations they are was unknown. First the word ete, 'these,' establishes the subject, the incarnation. Then 'plenary portions of the puruṣa-avatāras' follows as the predicate. In the same way, when Kṛṣṇa was first counted among the incarnations, specific knowledge about Him was still unknown. Therefore the word Kṛṣṇa appears as the subject followed by the predicate, describing Him as the original Personality of Godhead. This establishes that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead. The original Personality of Godhead is therefore necessarily Kṛṣṇa. Had Kṛṣṇa been the plenary portion and Nārāyaṇa the primeval Lord, the statement of Sūta Gosvāmī would have been reversed. Thus he would have said, 'Nārāyaṇa, the source of all incarnations, is the original Personality of Godhead. He has appeared as Śrī Kṛṣṇa.' "

Prabhupāda: So everything is given with logic and argument. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). First of all He's grouped among the incarnations, but Kṛṣṇa is not incarnation. He's bhagavān svayam.

Room Conversation -- August 2, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Just see how rascal they are. My Guru Mahārāja every step condemned this Ramakrishna Mission and Vivekananda. He said frankly that if there are any impediments for our movement, that is this Gandhi and Vivekananda. He said frankly. Hodge-podge. Gandhi's also hodge-podge. He was a politician, and in politics he mixed some spiritual ideas, hodge-podge. And this Vivekananda was also politician. His name was recorded in the government as "sannyāsī-politician." Because after returning from America, he began to preach to make the poor man rich, and these weak, fatty, and so on, exercise. So the government took it that he's, under the dress of a sannyāsī, he's preaching social and political upliftment. So his name was recorded as "sannyāsī-politician." And his name was also recorded, "political saint," Gandhi. After all, the British government, they were very intelligent. They could understand what is what. Otherwise, how they were managing this big empire? Very intelligent, there is no doubt about it. And actually they were intelligent. When they were managing, we were happy, actually. Nobody can deny it. Although they were exploiting. But nobody could understand. Everyone was feeling happy. And as soon as they left, everyone is unhappy. That distinction I can give evidence, I can, from my personal experience. Things were very, very nice. Calcutta, oh, it was so nice city. Now it is hell. It is same Calcutta. Why it is now hell? Hidden(?) garden, that was a nice garden. So... Everywhere hell, only hell. Calcutta was considered the nicest city in India, better than Bombay, but it has become now hell. The streets, especially those quarters in our temple.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: They are wonderful rascals. Shameless. Wonderful shameless rascals. They say that the moon planet is desert, vacant, no living entities. And we say that it is the planet for the pious men to live there very opulently for ten thousand... Of these two classes of knowledge, which is better? We have got some evidence from the śāstra, but they have no evidence. They are simply speculating. Now this moon..., er, Mars, they'll find the same result. Then how long they will go on like this?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: As long as the society is godless...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: As long as the society's godless, then...

Prabhupāda: So how long they'll present the same theory over and over again? They're already putting the same thing. They have concluded in the moon there is rocks and sand, nobody can live. The same thing they are saying in a different way, and in the end they will have to say like that. Because they have no knowledge, it is simply theoretical. And they have no other alternative but to say the same thing again and again. What they will say?

Evening Darsana -- August 12, 1976, Tehran:

Mrs. Patel: It is convenient for them to.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not convenient, foolishness. A rabbit, when there is some big animals, he closes his eyes. He thinks, "There is no danger." That does not mean he's out of danger. He'll be eaten up. So simply by concocting that there is no life after death, you'll not be escaped. In Bhagavad-gītā informs, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. There is no need of studying any literature, Vedic literature. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ, Kṛṣṇa is giving evidence. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). This dehāntara-prāptiḥ, I was not this body in the beginning, I was a very jubilant child like this. Where is that body? That body is not existing. It is different body, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. So why they do not believe dehāntara-prāptiḥ? I am the same soul who possessed a child's body, young man's body, boy's body. Now I have got the old man's body. So dehāntara is there, and I am still. I remember, I was a child, I was lying down on the lap of my elder sister. I remember still. But where is that body? It is different body. This is dehāntara-prāptiḥ. I am the same man who was lying down on the lap of my elder sister, and now I am differently situated. The body has changed. This is the proof, Kṛṣṇa is giving you this proof. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So if we accept authority of Kṛṣṇa and His statement, so reasonable and so scientific, then our life is successful. And if we don't care for them, let us do our business. But nature will not excuse. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). Simply our false ahaṅkāra, egotism: "Ah, I don't care." You may do that, but prakṛti will take action. Because you are under the control of the nature's law. Uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Uru means very hard, tight. Or uru means the thigh. And dāmni (means) by ropes, baddha. We cannot transgress the laws of nature. If we willfully transgress, we can do that, but we will have to suffer. If you touch fire, it will burn. It will not excuse that "Here is a child, he did not know." No excuse. Either a child or elderly, you have touched fire, then you must be burned. This is nature's law. Very strict. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). Why you have got different bodies? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. As we have associated with the modes of material nature, we have got different types of bodies. Otherwise, why there are so many varieties of forms? The forms are different, but within the form, the soul is one.

Evening Darsana -- August 12, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: Books means solid ground. What we want to preach, it is recorded, not any concocted ideas. There is direction by Rūpa Gosvāmī:

śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-
pañcarātra-vidhiṁ vinā
aikāntikī harer bhaktir
utpātāyaiva kalpate
(Brs. 1.2.101)

Without the support of śruti, smṛti, purāṇa, any religious movement for understanding God is simply disturbance-utpātāyaiva kalpate. Utpāt... That is the... It is the version given by... Even Kṛṣṇa, He's God Himself, He's speaking, He's giving reference to the Vedānta-sūtra: brahma-sūtra-padaiś caiva hetumadbhir viniścitaiḥ (BG 13.5). So without reference to the Vedic literature, anything you speak, it has no ground. Śruti-pramāṇa, this is Vedic culture, śruti-pramāṇa. It must be supported by śruti. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta you'll find whenever Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, He gives immediately Vedic evidence, śruti-pramāṇa. Then it is solid. So we are trying to present this movement with śruti-pramāṇa. Our Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will be finished in sixty volumes, and Caitanya-caritāmṛta is already finished in seventeen volumes. So altogether at least we'll have hundred volumes of books, small and big, to give śruti-pramāṇa. This is the example.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mrs. Patel has prepared some khicuḍi.

Prabhupāda: Khicuḍi? Where it is?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's here.

Prabhupāda: I'll take. How many children? You have children?

Mrs. Patel: Two sons and one daughter.

Prabhupāda: Two sons.

Room Conversation -- August 16, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Vedas, when Lord Buddha wanted stop animal killing, these rascals came with Vedas. "Vedas there is sacrifice, there is animal killing." So he thought that these rascals will create botheration. By bringing Vedas, there is... He said, "I don't care for it."

veda nā māniyā bauddha haya ta nāstika
vedāśraya nāstikya-vāda bauddhake adhika

Similarly, these rascals are giving evidence of Rūpa Gosvāmī's advice, that "Here is Rādhā-kuṇḍa..." But whether you have followed other things.

Guest: Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha-vegaṁ, pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. Etān vegān yo viṣa... You are manipulated by the udara-vegam, upastha-vegam. First there is test: etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ (NOI 1). Then for him Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). He has got three dozen sevā-dāsī, and living in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. My Guru Mahārāja wanted to publish Govinda-līlāmṛta. He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So first of all Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, "I'll tell you some day." And when he reminded, he said, "Yes you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it, print one copy. You'll read and you will see that you have printed. Not for distribution." So we are printing all these books for understanding properly. Not that "Here is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Let us go." Jump over like monkey. "Here is rāsa-līlā. Immediately..."

Room Conversation About Blitz News Clipping -- August 21, 1976, Hyderabad:

Pradyumna: "In mid 1975 the Union Home Ministry took, however, a lenient view and allowed the immigrants to stay for long periods on the specious plea that the mastering of Vaiṣṇava literature, the spiritual diet of the cultists, was not like learning shorthand." Then heading: "Contrary Pulls in Government." "Lately, of course, the center has become wise, though contrary pulls in the thinking process still persist. This was quite evident at the Raj..."

Prabhupāda: This article no sane man will take notice of it. No sane man will like. It is not very important article.

Hari-śauri: Trouble is, we're in a land of insane people.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the largest circulating newspaper in India.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. So bring him into court. But what will be your charges?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, slander, it was trying to slander our character, our whole movement.

Gargamuni: Defamation of our religious cult. Because we're recognized by scholars as being bona fide. It says here, "Ungodly face of Kṛṣṇa cult." How is that ungodly?

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the charge. They are trying to minimize our...

Gargamuni: We are godly. There are so many quotes from big scholars.

Hari-śauri: Just at the end this article gets worse.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that very heading is a defamation.

Room Conversation About Blitz News Clipping -- August 21, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: So you quote from all these quotations. Ananda Bazaar and others. You give quotations. They may make a fresh pages so when court case is there this should be presented.

Gargamuni: Yes. Newspaper articles can stand as evidence because the Ananda Bazaar, they sent a whole team there, and the article they wrote was fantastic.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You have to give me all of them.

Gargamuni: They're here on Prabhupāda's desk.

Hari-śauri: No, Harikeśa has got them.

Prabhupāda: So go and pick up and make arrangement immediately show them. One thing, that we have got this śālagrāma-śilā. So if you like to personally worship, we can keep it. Otherwise I am sending to Bombay. Do you like to worship?

Pradyumna: We can take with us? Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is good to take with you.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: We can make small thing like you used to have, small Deities? We can do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Make a small box.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here there are carpenters. We can get it made before you leave.

Prabhupāda: So we can carry and every morning just put in a siṁhāsana and tulasī and water and flower and little fruit. That's all. He has got tendency to worship.

Room Conversation About Blitz News Clipping -- August 21, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Yes. This case must be brought. Challenge them, "What do you know about God?" Explain. And we can prove God consciousness from every page of our books. That will be very interesting case. And we shall continue this unless this man is sufficiently fined.

Hari-śauri: This is a... That bit about... Some of it, there's the front page also. Thought you might like to read.

Prabhupāda: "Evidence of fraud"? No?

Hari-śauri: That's Sai Baba.

Pradyumna: One man is trying to prove Sai Baba is fraud. One professor.

Hari-śauri: He's a scientist. He says he can prove that Sai Baba's making things appear and disappear is just a trick.

Prabhupāda: He is a fraud. What is this paper?

Hari-śauri: This is the same issue.

Pradyumna: But there's something very interesting. When he manifests something, he gives evidence, he says, "This cannot be a creation, because to be a creation, to be God you must be creator. To be creator you must produce something which is uniquely not made by anyone else." So he said he's only making things that are already created by someone else—a watch. So he is...

Hari-śauri: He's producing a watch, then it's a watch that's made by some manufacturer. It's not made by Sai Baba. Like that. So there was a comment that even if he has some... He may have some supernatural power, but he's not God.

Pradyumna: He has some yogic siddhi, but he cannot be God because he does not create.

Prabhupāda: So this paper is against Sai Baba also?

Pradyumna: No.

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: "I am God. I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." Therefore his name is Ramakrishna. He was Gadadhar Chatterji, and he said to his disciple, Vivekananda, first-class rogue, that, "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." So he took it. This is evidence. Because Kṛṣṇa says "I am the Supreme." So he said, "I am the same Rāma, same Kṛṣṇa." This is the evidence. If Kṛṣṇa can say, he can say also. This institution is the most harmful institution for Vedic culture.

Jayapatākā: At one town, Beturhari, that, it is called Nakashiparathana. That's about thirty miles north of Māyāpur. One day in advance they advertised that we were coming and we were having a public showing of the cinema and Nitāi-Gaura ārati. And they had one maidan called Library Maidan. There was one, like, one stage there.

Prabhupāda: It is in West Bengal?

Jayapatākā: West Bengal. That's in Nadia district. Just before Pulasi, south of Pulasi. And when we came there and I saw the police in the afternoon, we told them we were going to have a function. So they said that they would send a few policemen. They said that "We will send some policemen for keeping the order." But that night so many people came the space could only hold four thousand. But another two, three thousand people came, and they were turned away because of insufficient space. So they were standing on the wall and on the rooftops all around, and all you could see were people's heads, just like an ocean. The policemen, after it was over... When I chanted, I chanted, "Everyone please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And I chanted the full mantra three times. They chanted so loud that even two, three blocks away people thought that the heavens were shouting. It was like a thunder...

Prabhupāda: Thunderbolt.

Garden Conversation -- September 7, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So that land was donated by a prominent man. Nityananda Kananda (?) was central government minister and later on governor of Gujarat. And he often comes to see me in Calcutta.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Point ten. Blitz: It has started taking interest in politics. It has started a political party in U.S.A. called "In God We Trust" party. ISKCON: ISKCON is not involved in politics at all anywhere in the world. Two American devotees did contest some civic elections for which a party called 'In God We Trust' was formed. The purpose of that campaign was to remind everyone to remember the Lord at all times, as everything belongs to God. Our spiritual master dissolved In God We Trust party in U.S.A. four years ago. Furthermore, there were never any plans to set up In God We Trust in India. We challenge Blitz to show us any evidence to support their claim. Point eleven. Blitz: As far back as 1971, the Maharastra government has taken action against the foreign devotees who have chosen to overstay in Bombay and elsewhere. ISKCON: This statement is also incorrect. The Maharastra government has never taken any action against our devotees. Point twelve. Blitz: The government has decided to stop specialized facilities rendered to foreign devotees seeking to popularize Kṛṣṇa in India. ISKCON: We are very grateful to the government of India for giving us facilities for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The government has not withdrawn any special facilities that have been given to us earlier. So I'm sure you can see by now the extent to which Blitz has misreported ISKCON activities in India. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that one day in every town and village of the world this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement would be spread. The Vedic culture is India's real heritage and we want to popularize it in every corner of the world. Even in black Africa we have locals that have joined."

Prabhupāda: Every corner of the world for world peace.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, for "world peace." Do you have a pen? No.

Hari-śauri: You don't have any light.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I need my pen. It's missing. I found it.

Prabhupāda: Because this is the only platform for united nations which is practically demonstrated.

Letter to Sai Baba -- September 13, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: There is, but we are missing.

Pradyumna: I have the Bengali.

Prabhupāda: The all ācāryas say that Your personality, although there are so many evidences in śāstra and authorized persons, still, the rascals cannot understand. So here is another verse, āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve.

Pradyumna: So do you want to quote this verse?

Prabhupāda: Hm. Must quote.

Pradyumna:

sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye
yan māṁ vadasi keśava
na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ
vidur devā na dānavāḥ
(BG 10.14)

Prabhupāda: (dictating:) So one has to accept the statement of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, how He is originally the puruṣa or person. Impersonal Brahman is expansion of the rays of His personal body, exactly like the sunshine is expansion of the rays of the sun-god Vivasvān. Vivasvān is a person in the sunglobe and Kṛṣṇa is also a person who spoke the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā long, long years before He spoke the same to Arjuna. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). Therefore the conclusion is that originally God is always a person. Impersonal Brahman is emanation from the personal God. In other words, God, personal God is not from impersonal Brahman, but impersonal Brahman is from the personal God. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā as follows.

Letter to Sai Baba -- September 13, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: Now someone may bring up the one point, they say "Well, if an avatāra comes if he must show all kinds of great opulences and powers, then he says sometimes the incarnation shows this, but sometimes, like when Lord Caitanya appeared He didn't show viśvarūpa or..."

Prabhupāda: But He never claimed that "I am avatāra." But we understand from the śāstric evidence. He never claimed. Rather when He was addressed as Kṛṣṇa He blocked His ears, "You don't say like that." He never claimed. He fully displayed Himself as a devotee. Not Bhagavān. Therefore Gaurāṅgavāda is illegal. Gaurāṅga-nāgarī. That is illegal. Moha-vāda or something like that.

Pradyumna: Gaurāṅga-nāgarī, mentioning Lord Caitanya in the role of Kṛṣṇa dancing with the...

Prabhupāda: In this way, find out the faulty statement and give him proof. He can claim... Hm.

Pradyumna: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)

Room Conversation -- October 31, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: He says, "Important Hindu sect." How they can say whether it is a genuine? Important, not only genuine but important, Vaisnavism.

Hari-śauri: Hm. (continues reading) "...whose worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, in one of His many forms is one of the most important religions of India. The American devotees of ISKCON worship Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Being, the highest Personality of Godhead, whose worship according to the archaeological and epigraphic evidence, is pre-Christian in origin, as found in India's early sacred texts, the Ṛg Veda, Atharva Veda, etc. The detailed history of Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is found in the religious text of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa, and the philosophical basis of the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement is found in India's most sacred book the Bhagavad-gītā. These sacred texts and others have been translated and commented upon by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda and are being studied today in many major universities across the United States. The particular form of Vaisnavism of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement dates from Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, one of India's saints born in 1486 A.D. in Nadia, India. His immediate followers organized this philosophy in a number of Sanskrit texts, and His religious practices such as chanting and dancing are most authentically represented in America by the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees according to this tradition. Lord Caitanya, worshiped as the last incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, initiated a disciplic succession. In the mid-19th century, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appeared in this spiritual lineage. Soon afterwards, his son Bhaktisiddhānta, Sarasvatī became the spiritual master of India's Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, and his most prominent student was Śrīla Prabhupāda. It was at Bhaktisiddhānta's command that Śrīla Prabhupāda later came to America to bring the teachings and practices of Caitanya to the West. My study of these American devotees, which I have pursued since 1968, was published in my book, Hare Krishna and the Counter-culture, published by John Wiley and Sons in 1974, New York. The sociological data revealed through a detailed questionnaire and many hours of taped interviews, indicates that many of the devotees had been influenced by the hippie culture of the 1960's. However, after they joined the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, their lives became completely changed from a life of drugs, illicit sex, and violence to one of dedication to a spiritual discipline and morality and to helping others in their search for happiness. In this period of rapid social and cultural change..."

Prabhupāda: This is the fact, in many cases. So many drunkards, so many violence... This is... (name witheld)?

Haṁsadūta: (name witheld).

Prabhupāda: Big drunkard.

Room Conversation -- October 31, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Can read it, yes.

Hari-śauri: My son Daniel, Sravananda Das, entered the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement almost 5 years ago. The only request that he made of me and my husband was that we read about the Hare Kṛṣṇa philosophy and try to understand his new way of life. My husband and I have read everything we could find about the movement and the philosophy. We have visited the Hare Kṛṣṇa Centers in Philadelphia and New York frequently, always speaking to the devotees and having our questions answered. Evidently these youths feel a revulsion towards the sense gratification of forbidden permissive values of our society. When I see how happy the devotees are..."

Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta, Haṁsadūta?

Hari-śauri: Haṁsadūta?

Prabhupāda: The Ceylon is educated and if they are receiving, why not open a branch?

Hari-śauri: (continues reading) "He recently returned home after almost 3 years in India. My husband and I could see the awareness and maturity in him gained from his experiences in working with the Indian people. He learned first-hand about a different culture and it certainly has enriched his life. In our minds we can compare our son's life to the life of a Catholic monk or a religious Jew of the Hasidic sect. Do I think that my son is brainwashed? I can best answer this by answering the question, is our whole society not being brainwashed daily by the advertisement media? Liquor, smoking, pornographic movies and literature and which is worse? And what about the children who are being educated by the violence and killing on T.V.? I prefer that my son is devoting his life to the love of God and the service of humanity, a rare endeavor in this age. Since I know that my son has voluntarily chosen the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement to exercise these rights and that he can leave it whenever he wishes I cannot see how the term 'brainwashing' can be applicable to this movement. I sincerely believe from my contacts with many devotees that they are happy and have found fulfillment by loving and serving Lord Kṛṣṇa, God. This may not be my wish for my life but my son has chosen it for his, and I whole heartedly respect it."

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. (Bengali conversation) (end)

Room Conversation -- November 24, 1976, Vrndavana:

Hari-śauri: Most of this magazine is... Somehow or other, in all the articles there's something about how the chanting is actually producing greater intelligence, clearing the mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Akṣayānanda: Books and devotees.

Prabhupāda: This issue is very important. There's so many evidences. (break) Who are present here...

Akṣayānanda: Who are present here.

Prabhupāda: ...their charges, including their... Write the names and the work in which department he's in charge. That I want to know.

Devotee (1): Would you also like to know the... 'Cause some of them are not in charge of certain departments but they work within a department.

Prabhupāda: Oh. He is assistant.

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then assistant name also the different, these departments. One man in charge and he may have several assistants. That is different thing. (pause) Robinson could not protest any, in any of my statement. He had to admit.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. I told you he was very interested in the philosophy, asking some very good questions.

Prabhupāda: Still he's asking, "Are you saying that we were something else before this life?" I said, "Yes." (laughter) (break) ...issue will help 99% about this controversy, brainwashing.

Evening Darsana -- December 3, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: The scientists' position denying God, do you think?

Mahāṁśa: It's always changing. They simply...

Vāsughoṣa: They feel great anxiety to talk about God. Once, about three years ago, I had met one big scientist from University of Chicago. Just a chance there was one... My father had invited me back home for something. The scientist was there. We got in a big discussion with him and his daughter. They were just saying, "We don't see God. There is no evidence of God." Even logically we could show them. They still didn't want to accept. It was so obvious to them. Ultimately they couldn't say anything.

Prabhupāda: What is their logic to deny God?

Vāsughoṣa: They don't have any logic. And ultimately, if we present our conclusions of Bhagavad-gītā to them, they are silent. They can't say anything but they still refuse. They don't accept it, but they can't deny it.

Prabhupāda: That is dog's obstinacy. The dog, however you ask the dog to stop barking, it will go on barking. Dog's obstinacy. Hm. What is that? I have taken.

Room Conversation -- December 20, 1976, Bombay:

Guest: Literal, literally.

Prabhupāda: Literally, yes. The thing is the interpretation is required when you cannot understand. If, if I say, "This is a stick," everyone knows it is a stick. So I say, "Here is a stick." So if you say, "No, I do not accept it is stick." So what is that interpretation? Everyone knows it is stick. Similarly, Kurukṣetra means that the place, still existing. And in the Vedic śāstra it is ordered, kurukṣetre dharma yajayet. You go... From time immemorial it is a place of pilgrimage. Even Kṛṣṇa, during solar eclipse, Kṛṣṇa with His family, He came there, Jagannātha. The ceremony is there, Ratha-yātrā. Because Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma and Subhadra came in the same chariot. That is being performed. So Kurukṣetra, dharmakṣetra, at least five thousand years ago the system was that people used to come to Kurukṣetra as a place of pilgrimage, dharmakṣetra. And Kurukṣetra, the place is there. And the the two family members, the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, they fought. The Battle of Kurukṣetra took place. These things are evident. Then why there is need of interpreting? That is the first point.

Room Conversation -- December 20, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you first of all learn Sanskrit, then you (indistinct). If there is (indistinct). This practice should be stopped. If you want to preach Bhagavad-gītā, and if you want to preach your own philosophy through Bhagavad-gītā, don't do this preaching. You preach your philosophy, your (indistinct). You can preach any philosophy you like, but don't take Bhagavad-gītā and (indistinct) on it. (?) That is my (indistinct). That is being done. That is being done. So therefore, instead of studying, collecting so many literatures, why not take Bhagavad-gītā as it is and preach? And as evidence to prove he is (indistinct) ...all over the world. Before me for 200 years there was preaching of Bhagavad-gītā. Not a single person became... It is the history of (indistinct). Now you see thousands. Why? Because there is no interpretation. There is no interpretation. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the Supreme." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). We are presenting, "Here is God." You are searching after God, Kṛṣṇa, and they are accepting. They do not (indistinct), what is Kṛṣṇa. What is this? How they are accepting? Because it is the real thing, there is no interpretation. They are not Hindus, they are not born in India. How they have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? They have given up bad habits, no illicit sex. Because you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa unless you are free from all sinful activities. Anyone who is sinful, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). We test him. We test like this, that Kṛṣṇa says this, that anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord, he is under the four groups: duṣkṛtina, mūḍhāḥ, narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. That's it. We are fools and rascals, we have no such education. But we take Kṛṣṇa's word that "Here is a fool, here is a sinful man, here is a narādhamāḥ, here is māyayāpahṛta." So unless you stick to this point, that we shall preach Bhagavad-gītā (indistinct) then there is no meaning of it. You are misled, you will mislead others. But if you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, as Kṛṣṇa said, then... If you are not prepared to do that, then however (indistinct) interpretation, thousands of literatures, the result is (indistinct). This is practical.

Room Conversation with Life Member, Mr. Malhotra -- December 22, 1976, Poona:

Prabhupāda: That they write in the books. They don't call, but write in the books.

Hari-śauri: There was one article in the Blitz where they quoted him saying, God is man and man is God.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He said he is the incarnation for this age.

Prabhupāda: And where is the evidence? Anyone can say, "I am incarnation." (laughter) Any rascal can say.

Mr. Malhotra: Anyone can say. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: What is the proof? Just like this Ramakrishna, he was an illiterate priest, and at the time of his death he said to Vivekananda, that I am Kṛṣṇa, I am Lord Rāma, and he accepted. He accepted. (Hindi conversation) Let him create one motorcar. Why he's asking, "Please sir, give me car." That's all. He is such a great man; bogus. People are foolish persons, they are deviated by these bogus rascals. That is going on. (Hindi conversation) Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇam. (Hindi conversation)

Mr. Malhotra: Then he is servant, always servant?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nityānām, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ... (Hindi) Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). (Hindi) That is his foolishness. And foolish person will accept. Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Therefore He shall remain the Supreme always. We have to refer to the Vedic śāstras. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. This is description of Bhagavān. That He has nothing to do, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. (Hindi) (Explains in Hindi that Kṛṣṇa does not need or show any magic, when He was just a child He killed Pūtanā. Not that by meditation He became God. Bhagavān is always Bhagavān.) Either he is three months old or three years old or three hundred years old. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate, nobody can be equal or greater than Him. If someone is equal to Him then how He is Bhagavān?

Morning Walk and Room Conversation -- December 26, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: What research? He's a rascal also!

Guest (1): No, but he thinks the daśa-avatāra...

Prabhupāda: "He thinks," means he's a rascal. Nothing to be think. It must be from the śāstra.

Guest (1): Is there any evidence in śāstra that I can look?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Guest (1): The daśa-avatāras, that the first was Matsya and then Kūrma and Varāha, and finally...

Prabhupāda: That is God's pastime. He becomes like this, like that. It is not evolution.

Guru dāsa: God is not so morphic. He's not an animal. Just like we're in this room but we don't become part of the room. (break)

Śrutaśrava: ...so clear, but they refuse to accept it cause if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. You make all these things so crystal clear, but they refuse to accept because if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense.

Prabhupāda: Refusal, let them refuse, and who cares for them?

Guru dāsa: Actually, if they were successful in any experiment they would be out of a job. So they actually want material life, scientists.

Prabhupāda: And now what is their science? This is science that "We are trying." What is this nonsense science? Do you think this is science? "We are trying." Everyone can say, "I'm trying." Is that science? Then? Any rascal can say that "I am trying." Is that science?

Press Interview -- December 31, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No emotional. It is fact. Concrete.

Indian man: Concrete reality.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If your mother says, "Here is your father," that's all right. You don't require any other. And that is paramparā. Mother knows how you were created by your father. So she is the ultimate evidence. That's all. You cannot speculate. If you disbelieve your mother, then there is no question of understanding your father.

Indian man: We all have at certain moments of devotion some sort of feelings when we feel we are very much near the God. But that concrete reality, to attain that, the only way is jñāna, upāsanā.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is jñāna. But the jñāna must be received through the right source. Jñāna is not speculation. The modern rascals, they create jñāna by speculation. That is not jñāna. That is ajñāna. The same example. If you don't receive jñāna from your mother, there is no jñāna of father. If you millions of years go on speculating who is your father he'll never be revealed. That is not jñāna. That is ajñāna. So these rascals, they are creating jñāna. That is not jñāna. Jñāna means you should receive jñāna through the right source.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Prabhupāda: But you do not know the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means "all-attractive." That is God. That is God.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. I tried to explain. But he said Kṛṣṇa means that person who appeared in India five thousand years ago. That is Kṛṣṇa. So he said if God is Kṛṣṇa, then there would be some evidence in the Bible, but there is no evidence.

Prabhupāda: There is ev... There is evidence. Because... But you are so fool that you do not inquire, "If the Christ is son of God, who is God?" They never inquires. Why did you not inquire?

Rāmeśvara: He said that God spoke to Moses. God did not tell Moses that He was Kṛṣṇa. He told Moses that He is Jehovah.

Prabhupāda: Did Christ say that "Jehovah is my father"?

Rāmeśvara: That makes it very clear.

Hari-śauri: I can't remember ever seeing... Jesus never used a name. He only spoke about "my father."

Prabhupāda: And who is that father? Why did you not...? So here is the father. You should be obliged to us that we are bringing...

Hari-śauri: There are so many names anyway.

Prabhupāda: Then why not Kṛṣṇa?

Room Conversation -- January 20, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Pāpī tāpī jāta chilo, hari-nāme uddharilo, tāra sākṣī jagāi and mādhāi. You are lawyer. You want evidence how pāpī tāpī has been delivered. So Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, "Here is the evidence," tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. So practically we have to deal with Jagāi and Mādhāi, so many. And by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, hari-nāme uddharilo-hari-nāma is so powerful that everyone can be delivered, especially in this age. And so far one's profession is concerned, Kṛṣṇa said that even in fire, so pure, there is some smoke. So because there is smoke, you cannot give up the fire. You have to utilize it. So in this material world there is always some faulty things in every profession. But that does not mean we shall give up our profession in that way. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). And Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung that nāmāśraya kari thākaha āpana kāje: "Take shelter of hari-nāma and remain in your own profession." And Caitanya Mahāprabhu has also recommended, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiṛ. Bhagavān is ajita, but if one simply hears about Him from the authoritative sources, then Bhagavān, although Ajita—nobody can conquer Him—He becomes jita, He becomes conquered, simply by hearing about Him. So we should take to that. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva jīvanti san-mukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām. You have to hear from the right source, and then everything will be adjusted. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. So where is there prasādam arranged? Eh? (end)

Room Conversation with Film Producer about Krsna Lila -- January 22, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Caitanya Mahāprabhu... No. We are prepared to take you also. Why not? It is not difficult. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when accepted Jagāi-Mādhāi, so Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddharilo tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. So the evidence is not that, by words. But evidence... So how? How He accepted? When Jagāi-Mādhāi, after injuring Nityānanda, so Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very angry that "I shall kill them!" So at that time Nityānanda begged, "Sir, You have promised not to take weapon in this avatāra. So excuse them." So as soon Nityānanda Prabhu said like that, both the brothers fell down on the feet of Caitanya Mahāprabhu: "Sir. Excuse us. We have done wrong. So please deliver us. We are most sinful." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You are sinful. That is not disqualification. But if you want My āśraya, then you stop this sinful life. No more. Whatever you have done, that's all right. I excuse you. But no more." So they said, āra nare bāp: "Bas, whatever we have done." So this is wanted. But if we continue to take shelter of Caitanya Mahāprabhu or His representative, at the same time continue our sinful activities, that is not desirable.

Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri:

Satsvarūpa: What about our promise, in the future also, that you go to Kṛṣṇa in the future?

Prabhupāda: We have got proof. Kṛṣṇa says. We believe in Kṛṣṇa. You believe in some rascal; we believe in Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). So we believe that. That's all. We have got evidence. You have no evidence. You are simply suggesting in future you'll do. But we have got evidence.

Gargamuni: Sometimes they ask, "Show us somebody who's come."

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Gargamuni: "Show us someone who has come from there."

Prabhupāda: Many.

Gargamuni: "But we don't find any."

Prabhupāda: Many. It is in the śāstra. "He was formerly like this, and now he has become this." There are many.

Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri:

Gurukṛpā: Then they accuse us of being fanatical.

Prabhupāda: You are also fanatical. Why do you believe Lenin? You are fanatical in our eyes. You are worse than fanatical because we have got great other authorities—they believe Kṛṣṇa is God. You have created a section recently, but we have got evidences from thousands and thousands of years ago, authorities believing Kṛṣṇa. Our literatures are very old. Your literature recently made.

Gargamuni: Sometimes, though, they may agree philosophically about Kṛṣṇa, but then they will bring in Kṛṣṇa's controversial personal life. They always do this.

Prabhupāda: Personal life?

Gargamuni: They bring in about, always about the gopīs and Kṛṣṇa.

Gurukṛpā: They just did that recently in Honolulu.

Gargamuni: Philosophically they may agree. But then they will go and attack Kṛṣṇa's...

Gurukṛpā: Character.

Gargamuni: His character.

Prabhupāda: But that... Because...

Gargamuni: Even in India they do. They say, "Rāma, He was better."

Prabhupāda: But what do you know about Rāma and Kṛṣṇa? You do not know anything. You are not a devotee. You have to learn the science. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati (BG 7.3). You are ordinary man. You cannot understand. Then one can criticize his father and mother also, that "My fa..." They do. Some rascal do that. Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. "My father has done harm to me. By lusty desire he gave me birth, and I am suffering." They say like that. So you can in that way, you criticize your father and mother. But that is not law. Law is father and mother should be respected. But you rascal, you can criticize your father. You are such a rascal.

Room Conversation -- January 27, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: That... What is your science nonsense? You cannot explain actually what is the position. You are simply speculating—"There is no life," "Somewhere there may be life. Let us take photograph. Let us go." What is your knowledge? We have got some knowledge from the śāstra that they're all full of living entities. And what knowledge you have got? We have got some śāstric evidence, Veda-śāstra. Is full of life, but you have no evidence. You simply speculate. So what is the value of your knowledge? Admitting that you are defective, I am defective, but I have got some authority. You have nothing. You are in the darkness.

Satsvarūpa: We have instruments, calculations.

Prabhupāda: That is also imperfect, because you have prepared. You are rascal; your instrument is rascal. How a rascal can manufacture something perfect? How it is possible? Hm? Anything we attempt to get, knowledge, is imperfect. Only perfect knowledge is when you get it through the perfect person. The same example: you cannot make experiment or speculation who is your father. The only right information—from your mother, that's all. Finish. Otherwise, everything speculation. How you'll rightly understand your father? Except the mother's statement, what is the next alternative? Hm? Is there any?

Room Conversation -- January 27, 1977, Puri:

Hari-śauri: They'll never be able to prove that...

Prabhupāda: Similarly, we have to say, "We have never tried to brainwash. We have done exactly according to śāstra, authority. Here is the evidence. We have not manufactured anything. The evidence is here." They must read all the books. They cannot reject. The Hare Kṛṣṇas... That is their charge. They'll find in every page Kṛṣṇa at least ten times, that "This is Hare Kṛṣṇa." All the books, there must be Kṛṣṇa's name: "This is Hare Kṛṣṇa." I think you should take defense, in that way.

Gurukṛpā: Should depend on Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: The same argument, "Yes my lord, just to teach you law."

Satsvarūpa: Today is the day that Ādi-keśava Swami is supposed to meet with this Jimmy Carter, the twenty-seventh. We'll get some report.

Prabhupāda: Apart from that, you defend your position like this.

Room Conversation -- January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: ...subject matter.

Hari-śauri: It was that article on transcendental science.

Prabhupāda: And no irresponsible article should be published, strictly. It is going to be future evidence. Not whimsical.

Hari-śauri: There's no reason why the BTG should be any different from any of our books. There's no reason why the BTG standard should be different from our books. We take your books as absolute authority.

Prabhupāda: No, it will not be.

Hari-śauri: BTG should not be any different from that.

Prabhupāda: See to that.

Morning Walk -- February 1, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: It is quite logical that without father, nobody is born. So I do not know who is my father, but the mother is the evidence. That's all. You cannot make this theory that "I was born without father." That is not possible. That is not the laws of nature. But there must be father. You can say, "I have not him." And that is not proof that there is no father. One who has seen, go. Tattva-darśinaḥ. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says,

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
(BG 4.34)

Go to mother who has seen your father. That is only proof. Tattva-darśinaḥ. She has seen your father. So you submit, praṇipātena, to mother. "Mother, tell me who is my father." And she'll say, "Yes, he is." Tattva... She has seen. Tattva-darśinaḥ. It is not that mother is blindly indicating somebody as father. She has seen, and you have to learn from your mother by submission. That's all. There is no other way.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually we use this theory.

Gurukṛpā: So they ask us, "Have you seen God?" They ask us, "So you say you have seen God."

Prabhupāda: No, I have not seen. God personally comes, and I see Him. Kṛṣṇa came. A fortunate person saw him. Just like Arjuna saw. He accepted, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, puruṣam: (BG 10.12) "Oh You are person," śāśvatam, "eternally." He has seen. We have to take knowledge from Arjuna. That is called paramparā system. He has seen God, and he is giving a statement. You take Arjuna's statement and see God. That is the way. We are not blindly accepting Kṛṣṇa, but one who has seen Kṛṣṇa, his statement is there; we accept.

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: So how to rectify it? They have not gone to the moon.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what Balavanta told them. He said, "You have your ideas, and we have ours. We're not stopping you from having yours, so why do you stop us from having ours? As far as we're concerned, we have as much evidence as you. Your authorities say you went, and our authorities say you didn't go. And anybody can make a movie to show that you went to Jupiter or Saturn or any other planet. Movies..., they can make King Kong. So we don't accept it, but we don't stop you from having your beliefs. But don't force us to say, 'Yes, you went to the moon.' " He answered nicely.

Prabhupāda: No, actually when there is some news about the moon planet, I personally did not go with him. So how shall I believe him? Come to practical point of view. I did not go. You publish something, news. Why I accept it? If you say that "I did not go," er, "I did not see," that is everything. We believe some paper, that's all. So why shall we not believe the Vedic literature?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at the difference of the writers. The writer of the newspaper is a fool.

Prabhupāda: Vedic literature is so authoritative. It has been accepted by the ācāryas.

Tripurāri: So they are reading our books, but they do not believe that they're not the body, so many foolish people. They read, but they don't believe that they're not the body. They think it's just fantasy.

Prabhupāda: What do they believe?

Tripurāri: They believe that they're just a body, and to enjoy the body till death, and then nothing. You present such nice philosophy, but they would rather think that they were just a bag of bones.

Room Conversation with GBC members -- March 2-3, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the real legal thing is: some way or other, introduce books. Therefore... And it will be beneficial in the long time let us see. Read it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "We're very happy to see that by your divine mercy the whole world is flooded with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just by printing and distributing your books the whole world will change. We can see the tremendous effect that your books already caused in the Communist countries of Eastern Europe. The people are mad after your books. Many of them can see that this is the only solution to get out from the miseries that are caused by the materialistic way of life and Communism. Please let me quote from a recent letter sent by a boy in Hungary." The boy's name is Yedi Peta. " 'According to the advices now, I am chanting daily on beads I made at home. I also have purchased the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, although I can only speak Hungarian. Now I do not give any more importance for the evidences from chemistry, physics, mathematics, etc. Rather, I appreciate A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda much more than any scientist or philosopher.' "

Devotees: Jaya!

Rāmeśvara: Haribol!

Pañcadraviḍa: Intelligent.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: " 'There have been many others also in the past... There maybe have been others also in the past who were pure, but to my person, Śrīla Prabhupāda is the nearest and dearest. I feel the importance of living in the association of devotees and of accepting the guru. However, at the present there is no temple here, so I neither can associate with devotees, nor can I be accepted...' "

Prabhupāda: So it is not possible to start a temple there?

Bali-mardana: Budapest?

Prabhupāda: Who is taking care of that side?

Devotees: Harikeśa.

Prabhupāda: So, if possible, try.

Room Conversation -- March 26, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Make first of all in India.

Girirāja: From India you can be famous.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, first of all, when we have this journal out, this volume, first volume is going to be out in about three months, and then it will be more effective. We are going to speak, at the same time distribute the journals in the form of written forms, as evidence of what has been spoken. So that way it has more weight. And if they don't understand they can read it and study, and they can...

Prabhupāda: In the meantime let us recruit some important... Just like this Russian scientist.

Girirāja: This Dr. Khorana is supposed to be...

Prabhupāda: I think as our books are entering Russia, it will create something.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. I think it will be...

Prabhupāda: Eighteen books, Bhāgavata, they have ordered.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not a joke. Someone is going to read them. The Russians are the biggest readers in the world.

Prabhupāda: Not only that. They are anxious to read from Indian literature. They know there is substance in these books. That they know.

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1977, Bombay:

Gargamuni: ...from one very important Hindi scholar, and he is Dr. V. P. Singh, M.A. Hindi, M.A. Sanskrit, Ph.D. literature, and he's the senior professor and head of the department of Hindi, and Dean of Faculty of Arts of Benares Hindi University at Benares. So he writes about your Hindi Bhāgavatam, which has just come out: "It gives me great pleasure to review these publications of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Especially I am appreciating this Hindi edition of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, complete with original Sanskrit text, word-for-word synonyms, and a marvelously lucid Hindi translation. In addition, having read thorough portions of the purports, which in my opinion reflect the vast erudition of the genius of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, I am discovering an unequaled body of literature in terms of scholastic quality and devotional impact both. The real meaning of such bhakti literature can only be disclosed by one who is a truly devotee and a saint. The evidence of these qualities in Swami Bhaktivedanta are highly apparent because of his great dedication and success in spreading the message of the Bhāgavata all over the world, and creating thousands of foreign bhaktas who aptly deserve the title of Vaiṣṇava Brāhmaṇa, due to their strict practice, devotion and learning."

Prabhupāda: Ah, very good.

Gargamuni: "I am very proud to have the acquaintance of such a saintly devotees of ISKCON, who have such an addition of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in our library. I have also...."

Prabhupāda: So he will get order anywhere if you present this.

Room Conversation with Ram Jethmalani (Parliament Member) -- April 16, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Vrajendra-nandana yei, śacī-suta haila sei, meaning that "Who was formerly Vrajendra-nandana, Kṛṣṇa, Nanda Mahārāja's son, the same person has now come as Caitanya Mahāprabhu." Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mother's name was Śacīdevī. Therefore He is introduced, "The same person who was formerly the son of Nanda Mahārāja has come again as the son of Śacīdevī." Balarāma haila nitāi. "And Balarāma has come as Nitāi." These two brothers, Gaura-Nitāi, They have now started this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So what is the purpose of this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? So pāpī-tāpī yata chila, hari-nāma uddhārila. In the Kali-yuga, ninety-nine percent, they are sinful and suffering. Pāpī-tāpī. Pāpī means sinful, and tāpī means suffering. All of them, pāpī-tāpī yata chila, they are all delivered simply by this process of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Pāpī-tāpī yata chila, hari-nāma uddhārila. Then where is the evidence? Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. You are a lawyer, you want witness, evidence.

Ram Jethmalani: (laughing) You don't blame me.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, it is not blaming, it is fact. It is the real understanding. Without evidence, without proof, how law can be established? That's a good method. So he is speaking like lawyer, that "You want evidence, you want witness: see here." Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. So that is five hundred years ago. Now in our Hare Kṛṣṇa movement you see practically. Drunkards, illicit sex-hunters, and so on, so on, they have become saintly persons. This is the effect of it. So... And Kṛṣṇa also says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). It doesn't matter. Pāpa-yoni. According to our Vedic system, low-class, those who are born in low-grade family, they are called pāpa-yoni. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, lower than that—śūdrādhaḥ. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). They are called pāpa-yoni, untouchables. Of course, nowadays these things cannot go on. But these are there. So Kṛṣṇa says, ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Anyone born in anywhere, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Mām eva vyapāśritya. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice, everyone can be elevated. So what is this harijana? We can do.

Room Conversation with Ram Jethmalani (Parliament Member) -- April 16, 1977, Bombay:

Ram Jethmalani: How is it that the Bhagavad-gītā doesn't emphasize public service? There is no emphasis on public social service.

Prabhupāda: Where it is? Tell me. You must give evidence. You are lawyer.

Ram Jethmalani: No, no.

Prabhupāda: Where does it say?

Ram Jethmalani: No, why is there no emphasis?

Prabhupāda: There is no need. This is animal conception of life. The dog also combine together and make (makes barking sound:) ba ba ba ba ba. A human being also can do like that. Then where is the difference between animal and human being?

Ram Jethmalani: But I don't know that animals, on the contrary, serve each other. It is men who do.

Prabhupāda: But what is the use of serving? What you can do? What service you have done? You cannot do anything beyond the laws of nature. Now Indira is in difficulty. What can you do? In one day, everything is finished. The law of nature is so strict. You cannot do anything. You are falsely proud that you want to do. It is not possible. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). You can do only the service, that "You are not this body, you are spirit soul, your business is this."

Room Conversation with Ram Jethmalani (Parliament Member) -- April 16, 1977, Bombay:

Ram Jethmalani: No thank you. I am trying to finish as much as I can.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Ram Jethmalani: One of the historical pieces of evidence is that if Rāmāyaṇa was historically earlier than Mahābhārata, it is curious that there is no reference in the Mahābhārata at all that any other gods of Rāmāyaṇa. And if it will be the other way around, there is no reference to...

Girirāja: But there is reference in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam...

Prabhupāda: About Rāmāyaṇa. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam there is reference of Rāmāyaṇa. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the last writing of Vyāsadeva.

Ram Jethmalani: In last writing it may contain, but between the two of them, there is no cross reference of any kind. Now, a personality like Kṛṣṇa, when first set up, it must have become a phenomena at least.

Girirāja: But in the Gītā Kṛṣṇa says... He describes His different vibhūtis, and there He says, "I am Rāma."

Prabhupāda: "Amongst the warriors, I am Rāma." The reference is there. This very word is there. "Amongst the warriors, I am Rāma."

Conversation with Yadubara (after seeing film) -- April 17, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: It is best to impress them: "You read this book; you get all information."

Yadubara: It's a little bit difficult to change the film.

Prabhupāda: No. That I am suggesting. If it is difficult, that is another thing. But this should be.

Yadubara: It should be there.

Prabhupāda: And actually, there is evidence.

Yadubara: What about reincarnation, Śrīla Prabhupāda? What about transmigration of the soul? 'Cause we were thinking to do that for a next film, because it seems like a very natural thing.

Prabhupāda: Transmigration, how it can be shown? The mind, intelligence, and ego you cannot see. But you will have to accept there is mind.

Yadubara: We have not really worked out any details.

Prabhupāda: Details, you cannot show it. It is so fine. Just like here is the sky, but you cannot see it. The mind is finer than the sky. The air is sky. (claps) That is sky. Where is the proof? (claps) That you cannot see. Śabda, sound. Sound is the sign of presence of sky. But you cannot see it. But it is there. (claps) This is the proof.

Morning Conversation -- April 19, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: He should not produce such thing without consulting the scientific men.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually I suggest that we make another movie.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The article that we are writing right now is very appropriate, that, the difference between spirit and matter. That is what he's trying to show there, but here we have many scientific evidence, and we can make it... So it will be very nice when we finish this monograph.

Prabhupāda: So make it improved, and another film you can make. It doesn't matter.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is made is made. You can reject it. Make another, authentic. And I have asked to pay you for your department... What will be the savings?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Rasara said he could save half.

Prabhupāda: Half. What is that half?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Somewhere between fifteen... Around fifteen, twenty thousand dollars perhaps, like that.

Prabhupāda: Fifteen, twenty thousand dollars per month.

Evening Darsana -- May 11, 1977, Hrishikesh:

Prabhupāda: So here is the one. You don't accept? You are finding out the one. So where is? So here is the one. Aham ādir hi devānāṁ (Bg 10.2), mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva... Hm? You have got objection to accept Kṛṣṇa the supreme one?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "What is your answer?" Prabhupāda asks.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you accept Him? In Vedic evidences He is the Supreme. Why?

Indian man (4): Swamiji, Christ says that he's the goal.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Indian man (4): Christ says that he's the Almighty. What is your opinion?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said, "Christ says that he is the Almighty. What is your opinion?"

Prabhupāda: Where he said?

Indian man (4): In Bible said. "I am the God, come."

Prabhupāda: He said?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he never says that.

Trivikrama: "I am the son of God."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said, "My father who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done." He never says, "My kingdom come, my will be done."

Trivikrama: Say, "I sit at the right hand of God."

German man (1): "The Father and me are one," he said. To give an example, the father in the heaven, and to his disciple he said, "The Father is in me. The Father is in me. I am one with the Father. I am not real, but the Father in me is doing everything. I am doing nothing." Every truth... Somebody touch his feet and they don't touch. "Don't tell me, my Father and me," he said.

Devotee (5): We chant every morning, sākṣād-dharitvena...

Prabhupāda: No bona fide person will say that "I am God." As soon as one says that "I am God," he's a rascal immediately. God is not so cheap. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said. He said, "I am the servant of the servant of the servant of servant of God." Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). Hundred times down. And that is real identification. And as soon as a person says, "I am God," then he's a madman. He's part of God. That is all right. But not the Supreme God.

Evening Darsana -- May 13, 1977, Hrishikesh:

Prabhupāda: Purport?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Purport: "The faithless cannot accomplish this process of devotional of service. That is the purport of this verse. Faith is created by association with devotees. Unfortunate people, even after hearing all the evidence of Vedic literature from great personalities, still have no faith in God." (break)

Prabhupāda: Pure bhakti.

anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ
jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam
ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-
śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā
(Brs. 1.1.11)

There should be no mixture of jñāna and karma or even yoga. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu... Simply to cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness favorably. Favorably means what Kṛṣṇa wants. That is favorable. If you do what Kṛṣṇa wants, that is favorable. And if you do what Kṛṣṇa does no want, that is unfavorable; that is not bhakti. Just like Kaṁsa. He was always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, but that was not favorably. He was thinking otherwise, how to kill Kṛṣṇa, and that is not bhakti. The gopīs were also thinking of Kṛṣṇa, how to make Him happy, and that is favorable. So ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā (CC Madhya 19.167). Without any mixture, adulteration of jñāna and karma, that is pure devotion.

Evening Darsana -- May 15, 1977, Hrishikesh:

Prabhupāda: Artificial. Cyavanti te. There is one verse. They'll fall down. What is the purport?

Pradyumna: "The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord engaged in devotional service of the Lord are called (sic:) bhakta-yogīs. Now, here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed. The process of jñāna-yoga, although ultimately bringing one to the same goal, is very troublesome, whereas the path of bhakti-yoga, the process of being in direct service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is easier and is natural for the embodied soul. The individual soul is embodied since time immemorial. It is very difficult for him to simply theoretically understand that he is not the body. Therefore the bhakti-yogī accepts the Deity of Kṛṣṇa as worshipable because there is some bodily conception fixed in the mind which can thus be applied. Of course, worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His form within the temple is not idol worship. There is evidence in the Vedic literature that worship may be saguṇa or nirguṇa, of the Supreme possessing or not possessing attributes. Worship of the Deity in the temple is saguṇa worship, for the Lord is represented by material qualities. But the form of the Lord, though represented by material qualities such as stone, wood, or oil paint, is not actually material. That is the absolute nature of the Supreme Lord. A crude example may be given here. We may find some mail boxes on the street, and if we post our letters in those boxes, they will naturally will go to their destination without difficulty. But any old box or an imitation which we may find somewhere, which is not authorized by the post office, will not do the work. Similarly, God has an authorized representation in the Deity form, which is called arcā-vigraha. This arcā-vigraha is an incarnation of the Supreme Lord. God will accept service through that form. The Lord is omnipotent and all-powerful. Therefore, by His incarnation as arcā-vigraha, He can accept the service of the devotee just to make it convenient for the man in conditioned life. So for a devotee, there is no difficulty in approaching the Supreme immediately and directly, but for those who are following the impersonal way to spiritual realization, the path is difficult. They have to understand the unmanifested representation of the Supreme through such Vedic literatures as the Upaniṣads, and they have to learn the language, understand the nonperceptual feeling, and they have to realize all these processes..."

Prabhupāda: Just like in the Upaniṣads it is said, paśyaty acakṣuḥ: "He sees, but He has no eyes." So what is that? How we can think of, one is seeing without eye? Aiye. There are so many. Śṛṇoty akarṇaḥ: "He has no ears..." So both things are there. When it is said, paśyaty acakṣuḥ... Mean cakṣuḥ, eyes, as soon we think of eyes, we think of our eyes, own eyes, and therefore it is forbidden, "Not like your eyes." Paśyati. He can see everywhere. Therefore we have to discuss śāstra. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛttimanti paśyanti pānti kalayanti ciraṁ jaganti (Bs. 5.32). The aṅga, the different parts of the body of Kṛṣṇa, has got all the qualities of other aṅga. Just like we can see with eyes, but Kṛṣṇa can speak also with eyes. He can eat also with eyes. That is difference. Aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛttimanti. So paśyaty acakṣuḥ means He has different type of eyes, not like our eyes. When there is nirākāra... Nirākāra means He hasn't got a ākāra, a form, like ours. That is nirākāra.

Srila Prabhupada Vigil -- May 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Impressed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "We arrived at the courthouse and waited in the big hallway while the Reverend went through to the public gallery. The plainclothesman who arrested us soon turned up, now dressed in uniform. It took a little persuasion before they cautiously took some of Lord Nityānanda's prasāda in the form of cookies while we waited for our case to turn up." The devotees brought prasādam with them to the courtroom and were distributing. "A stir went... At last we were beckoned into the courthouse itself and ushered into the dock. A stir went around the assembly in the court. Shaven heads and saffron robes were the last thing anyone expected to see in Her Majesty's court on a Tuesday afternoon. The magistrate, a balding, portly man in his late middle age, a red nose in his dark grey suit, surveyed us over the top of his gold-rimmed spectacles. We affirmed our plea of not guilty to the clerk of the court, and one of the constables who was sworn in at the witness box proceeded to report the supposed conditions of our arrest. The actual number of the chanting nagara-saṅkīrtana party miraculously grew from the original five first of all to seven when he started his account, and later to eight persons when he described how three devotees ran off and escaped arrest. According to his description, it seemed that many more people had been using Oxford Street than we had been aware of. Indeed, unlimited numbers of pedestrians had been obstructed and forced into the road at the grave risk of being run over by the almost nonexistent traffic. The judge listened impartially and then, since we had no advocate to speak on our behalf, he asked if we would like to cross-examine the evidence of the policeman. When we humbly pointed out that the constable, like everyone else, had imperfect senses, that he had contradicted himself in assessing the actual number of devotees, the judge politely suggested that it was a mathematical error. A titter of laughter rippled around the courtroom at his remark, while the police constable shuffled his feet and looked embarrassed. We were asked if we ourselves would like to speak for our defense, so having been previously chosen as a spokesman, I volunteered to be sworn in at the witness box. Surprised when the usher asked me to hold a copy of Bhagavad-gītā, I read out the words of the card presented before me." He didn't swear on the Bible; he swore on the Bhagavad-gītā. " 'I swear by almighty Śrī Kṛṣṇa that the evidence I give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.' Encouraged by smiles from the devotees in the dock, I began to describe the circumstances of our arrest, this time as they actually had happened. The magistrate listened as I went on to say, 'We understand that the police have a duty to perform, sir, but we also have a duty. We have been instructed by our spiritual master. Indeed, we are instructed by all the principle scriptures of the world, the Koran, the Toraḥ, the Bible, and in the Vedas, that we should glorify God by chanting His holy names. Whether you know the Lord by the name of Allah, Jehovah, Rāma, Govinda, or Kṛṣṇa, God is one.' 'Oh, quite so, quite so,' affirmed the magistrate. Encouraged, I went on. 'It is said in the Vedic scriptures, in the Bṛhad Nāradīya Purāṇa, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21).' 'In English. What does it mean in English?' the magistrate asked. 'Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. This is written in the Sanskrit language five thousand years ago. It means, "In the age of Kali, the present age of materialism and quarrel, there is no alternative, there is no alternative, there is no alternative for making positive spiritual advancement but the chanting of the holy name, the holy name, the holy name of the Lord." ' The judge, in fact the whole courtroom, sat there fascinated. I remembered Śrīla Prabhupāda's introduction..."

Prabhupāda: Bring some fruits.

Bhu-mandala Diagram Discussion -- July 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: "Probably." Their science is "probably." Probably it is science; otherwise it is nonsense. (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "The moon is 238,860 miles from the earth. It has no atmosphere, no weather and no wind."

Prabhupāda: "Probably." Everything "probably."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "There is thick dust covering and no evidence to suggest that the moon has ever supported life." In that newspaper article the man who is exposing them said—because they say it is covered by dust—"How is it that no dust is shown on the astronauts' suits when they walked around?" He says, "If there's such a thick dust, then, when the rocket landed, it would have made a pocket within that dust." He says, "But there's no crater around the rocket. Then how it is possible that these things are like that?" 'Cause actually they forgot. When they were making the stage setting in Arizona, they forgot these things.

Yaśodā-nandana: One argument Your Divine Grace gave in 1971 was that if they went to the moon and they found it was rock, how do they explain the moon is so shiny and gives such a cooling effect? They cannot explain that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look at the earth. Now, this is a real question that we still have to answer. They picture the earth round, and we say, no. Bhū-maṇḍala is like a lotus, like this, and the earth is only one part of one island in Bhū-maṇḍala, and it's not, you know, it's not round(?). It doesn't look like that. And all the pictures they take of the earth when they go up in their satellites show round. And we're going to tell them that it's not. This is a very tricky question. In other words, if this is the picture of the world, like this, and we say that... If we take an airplane from here, from Los Angeles. Now, supposing we go to India, which is here. So there's two ways to go. One way, you can go like this, and the other way, you can go like that. But if the earth is not a round globe, then how is it sometimes people go from Los Angeles via Hawaii to Japan and then India? So we can't figure this out. We have experience, those of us who have flown, that actually the plane went from Los Angeles to Hawaii to Tokyo to Hong Kong and then to India. So it doesn't work out in our maps so far, right? We can't figure it out. This thing has to be very complete in its answers. Otherwise everyone will laugh at us. We can't leave any loopholes.

Prabhupāda: So are you thinking on this?

Room Conversation -- July 27-28, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā is...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They've all gone. Plus, we shipped a big order to Africa, to Fiji...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Africa said they never got theirs.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They got it, and I have a bill of lading. That was a completely bogus letter. I have all the evidence with me. Yes, I've got a bill of lading to show you. Fiji, Mauritius, they've all gone. Plus, I also wrote up a small catalog. This is a very cheap catalog, not like the American. A lot of people write to BBT for brochure or catalog. So this is costing us only about twenty-five paisa but advertises all your books.

Prabhupāda: Hindi?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's in English. Yes. Because a lot of people write to BBT to "Send us your catalog," and if we do a big one, American one, that's very expensive. We can't give it out free. So I wrote a small sixteen... This is for free distribution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice. Yes, it serves the purpose.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It advertises all your books. Plus, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I had signed a contract with the biggest mail-order house in India, called Mail Order Sales. And this week their full-page advertisement on the Bhagavad-gītā is reaching 25,000 households. Their ad wasn't ready, but they are sending it to me in few days. It's a very beautiful ad. They have a monthly newspaper called Mail Order News, and that they've given a whole page. But they pay for it. We give them a straight commission on sales. Just like in America you have Book of the Month Club and selling books by mail. This is very big. Plus we are now doing the Bhaktivedanta Encyclopedia of Vedic Knowledge. We are preparing a brochure just like this. This is a Brittanica Encyclopedia advertisement. So we're going to have your nineteen or twenty Bhāgavatams here. The artists are working on it and this is going to be sent to about thirty thousand households. These are just for households, not libraries or anyone, just as selling to businessmen and executives.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who's going to do this?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Mail Order Sales. It's a company that specializes in mail orders. This will be very good.

Prabhupāda: Everything you do, it is... Now, utilize. So one book has come only.

Room Conversations Bangladesh Preaching/Prabhavisnu Articles by Hamsaduta -- August 11, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The onus is on them.

Prabhupāda: You do it, without God. Then I take it seriously. Otherwise empty voice simply, nonsensical.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Elders should be careful to give sound knowledge based on objective evidence to their children. Unfortunately a lot of delusional ideas are put into the minds of children in the name of religion. Dāsa and Swami talk about rebirth, soul, Supreme Soul, life generating matter, etc.... As a result of such delusional ideas put into them by deluded Indian God-man, Prabhupāda, who founded the bizarre cult know as Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Oh, he's a real demon, this man. Kṛṣṇa has a place already put aside for him. His science won't help him at that time. "Knowledge and enlightenment cannot be had through meditation, which is only a form of self-hypnosis. Dāsa and Swami ask whether scientists can make a chicken to come out of a plastic egg. I do not know whether they are aware that scientists have made over ten elements, such as fermium, (indistinct), serium..." That's all right. We're asking about a chicken. We're not asking about the elements.

Prabhupāda: Rascal, you are simply producing empty sound. Where is the chicken? Rascal. The chicken, the hen, is greater scientist than you. (S)he'll produced another egg within a week. You simply "This, that, this, that, this, that," that's all. "Left, right, that way." What is your value? We don't give you value. Less important than the chicken.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) He says, "We have created over ten elements that even God..."

Prabhupāda: Who cares for your creation? Without your creation the egg is there.

Room Conversations Bangladesh Preaching/Prabhavisnu Articles by Hamsaduta -- August 11, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: He's giving very strong argument.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "The Oxford Dictionary defines empirical as 'based on observation and experiment.' Observation and experiment is conducted with limited senses. Therefore the conclusions are naturally limited and imperfect. So in fact, the soul and the existence of God is quite beyond the power of Kovoor's observation. Why be so obstinate? This is common sense, a point anyone can understand. He says, 'It is the unique ability of man to engage in creative thinking that has made him succeed in his fight against the laws of nature.' This is a preposterous claim only a fool would make. Nature forces everyone to become old, diseased, and, lastly, die. Even the most powerful conquerors of the world are helplessly dragged off the stage of life by nature in the shape of all-devouring death. But perhaps Dr. Kovoor will be the first living being in the history of the world that will conquer over death. That remains to be seen. And lastly he says, 'Some of the marvelous achievements of mankind in recent years are the liberation of atomic energy, radio telescopy to reach millions of light years in space, landing on the moon, etc.' Everyone knows that the first thing scientists did when discovering atomic energy was to manufacture the atom bomb and promptly drop two of them on Japan, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, thus annihilating millions of innocent victims in a flash. It is certainly marvelous. (Prabhupāda and Tamāla chuckling) At the expense of untold billions of dollars and years of research and hard labor, scientists have gone to the moon, snapped a few blurry photos, and brought back a handful of rocks, declared to the world that 'There was nothing there, so now we will try to go to Mars.' What is so marvelous about this? It is completely lunacy, if anything. On our earthly planet, millions of people are without food, shelter, and simple education. Instead of spending billions of dollars to bring rocks from the moon, science would be more credible if they would rather spend the hard-earned taxpayer's money for improving his own lot on earth. Rocks are rocks, whether from the Moon, from Mars or from China. Or is it that science can turn the rocks into bread and cheese by applying some chemicals? Now, to get to the main article, in answer to Kovoor's question of what objective evidence I have made the fantastic statement that life comes from life and matter also comes from life, and that there is soul, rebirth of the soul, and Supreme Soul, God, they say fight fire with fire, and so I have taken advantage of three scientists who happen to be members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement and, I dare say, more qualified than the so-called Dr. Kovoor, who is only an honorary doctor..."

Prabhupāda: Ah!

Room Conversation With Madhudvisa and others -- August 17, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Because they... Nowadays people say "We don't want any sentiment, religious. We want science." Rascal, where is your science?

Balavanta: They have only blind faith. "Big bang," all these things. There's no evidence, no proof, simply blind faith. And but for you, no one is challenging. They would simply go unchallenged.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It said in the article that in Ceylon, this man Kovoor has been challenging and being victorious for decades, challenging everyone, "There is no God. There is no soul." But now it said for the first time someone has turned the tables on him and challenged him for the first time. He never expected such a thing.

Prabhupāda: And public applauded.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about the doll project? That nice museum?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Some big photographers, they are very much attracted, so they made a new, a second set of the changing bodies for the (faulty recording) ...on a mountain, some mountain, or a large hill in California, and all day this national publicity photographer took pictures of it for the press. He said he wants to make this the best-known picture of the year. I don't know where it's going to be released, but he wants to have it put in a big magazine. There's two of them. They both wanted the rights to take pictures of it. So they let the more famous one of the two... (indistinct)

Śrutakīrti: They set that exhibit up at the Ratha-yātrā festival. They had one large tent of the "Changing of the Bodies" exhibit, and myself and another devotee went to go see it, but there were so many people in line that we changed our mind. Several hundred people were standing waiting to see that exhibit. It's going to be very famous, "Changing of the Bodies."

Prabhupāda: It is a new thing. Many people come to see in our exhibition... (break)

Room Conversation -- October 11, 1977, Vrndavana:

Mādhava: We consider the philosophers to be superficial. They have no evidence to back up their words.

Dr. Kapoor: (laughing) That can be a subject for discussion by itself. All the modern scientists are taking to philosophy, because there comes a stage in scientific investigation, you see, where you cannot but philosophize. You see?

Mādhava: Yes. But the philosophers cannot continue in their own speculations.

Dr. Kapoor: What is philosophy? Philosophy is not thinking in that form. Philosophy is systematic thinking. It is systematic thinking. The scientists must be systematic.

Prabhupāda: The scientists... Without systematic, how it is science?

Dr. Kapoor: Yes. And the science is basically unsystematic in the fact that it starts with certain assumptions which by itself is unscientific. Why should you start with certain assumptions? Philosophy does not commit that. Philosophy... I don't raise the questions. You see? Why do you believe that matter is ultimate? Why do you believe that spirit and time are ultimate? Science believes in assumptions. Philosophy has not taken that for granted. Very systematic thinking. Therefore I say you'll not go to the root of the matter. It will be just superficial thing.

Mādhava: We are trying to apply both.

Dr. Kapoor: Yes, both. As a matter of fact, there is no watertight compartment. They're not simply a part of each, then. They're dovetailed. Science penetrates into philosophy, you see?

Rūpānuga: But the root of the problem practically is whether life comes from matter and matter comes from life, and that is the basic theme...

Dr. Kapoor: That is the basic theme, but the philosopher will ask the question, "You must first be very clear in your mind about these basic concepts, What is life and what is matter?" You may have some idea about life. Because we are life ourselves, we have some experience, some idea of life. But what is matter? No scientist has any clear conception of matter.

Prabhupāda: Matter has no consciousness.

Brahmānanda: But matter has no consciousness.

Dr. Kapoor: Matter has no consciousness, but what exactly it is? And you see, I tell you, matter has no consciousness—this is also an assumption. You see? The analysis of matter has revealed to the scientist, the physicist, that what remains in the ultimate analysis is at least not matter.

Prabhupāda: Matter, when you combine together, reveals some reaction. That's all.

Room Conversation -- October 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't matter. "...Bhaktivedanta Institute, it was stressed that life was independent of matter and dependent on higher principles lying beyond the present limitations of physics and chemistry. The assumption that life itself was nonphysical was the key note. The conference was opened by Dr. Prem Kripal, former president of the executive board of UNESCO. Three lectures were delivered by Dr. Thoudam D. Singh, director of the Institute; Mr. Robert Cohen, a geologist from USA; and Dr. Michael Marchetti, a theoretical chemist and student of the philosophy of science; on the fundamental nature of life and matter, new findings in paleontology and their effect on the theory of evolution, and the social consequences of the materialistic view of life. The philosophical foundations of life was the theme by discourse by Dr. S. R. Bhatt, associate professor of philosophy at Delhi University. Dr. Richard Thompson, a mathematician from Cornell University, and Mr. David Webb from England dealt with the application of information theory to the theory of evolution, thermodynamics and the origin of life. The limitations of science were discussed by Dr. A. Ramaya, professor of Biochemistry of the All-India Institute of Medical Science. Dr. Singh opposed the theory that life could be understood solely in terms of chemical combinations. There was intricate features of life, ranging from the structures of molecules and living cells to the subtle ones of human personality. The simple push-pull laws of chemistry and physics cannot account for these phenomena, and life and matter are understood as two distinct kinds of energy. Mr. Cohen said that the proof of Darwinian theory of evolution must depend in the end on the fossil record. Darwin's theory required that all the different species of life were gradually transformed, one into another, through many small changes or mutations. 'Yet prominent paleontologists such as Eldridge and Gould are now maintaining that the fossil record only supports the view that species remain static in form and that changes between them, if they do really occur at all, can only occur by abrupt leaps. An examination of possible causes for such leaps shows that they could only be accounted for by the action of a higher intelligence,' he said. Dr. Thompson dealt with the mathematical analysis of the laws of nature studied in modern chemistry and physics. 'In the light of the modern theory of information, these laws can be shown to be unable to account for the highly complex and unique structures of living organisms. It can also be shown that the quantum-mechanical laws suffer from serious shortcomings, because they cannot account for the nature of any conscious observer. Both of these lines of evidence supporting the view that the living being is a nonphysical entity and that the behavior of matter when in the present of life proves that there must be further higher order laws and principles as yet unknown to modern science.' All of these conclusions were in agreement with the observed phenomena of life, and they also corroborate the systemic description of the nature of life given in the Bhagavad-gītā. There was a general agreement among the participants of the conference that this approach to understanding the nature of life provided a viable alternative to the materialistic view of modern science."

Prabhupāda: Hm. A good article.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I think they gave a very full coverage.

Prabhupāda: And very scientifically presented. And Bhaktivedanta Institute is advertised.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Free of charge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is a good article.

Room Conversation -- October 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Jayādvaita: "The Russian scientist Dr. A. I. Oparin has been propagating this view since 1957, but his challengers demand 'really solid examples of life arising from matter.' At a three-day international conference on life comes from life at Vṛndāvana last week at the Bhaktivedanta Institute, it was stressed that life was independent of matter and dependent on higher principles lying beyond the present limitations of physics and chemistry. The assumption that life itself was nonphysical was the keynote. The conference was opened by Dr. Prem Kripal, former president of the executive board of UNESCO. Three lectures were delivered by Dr. Thoudam D. Sing, director of the Institute; Mr. Robert Cohen, a geologist from the USA; and Dr. Michael Marchetti, a theoretical chemist and student of the philosophy of science on the fundamental nature of life and matter, new findings in paleontology and their effect on the theory of evolution, and the social consequences of a materialistic view of life. The philosophical foundations of life was the theme of a discourse by Dr. S. R. Bhatt, associate professor of philosophy at Delhi University. Dr. Richard Thompson, a mathematician from Cornell University, and Mr. David Webb from England dealt with the application of information theory to the theory of evolution, thermo-dynamics and the origin of life. The limitations of science were discussed by Dr. A. Ramaya, professor of biochemistry at the All-India Institute of Medical Science. Dr. Singh opposed the theory that life could be understood solely in terms of chemical combinations. There were intricate features of life ranging from the structure of molecules in living cells to the subtle ones of human personality. The simple push-pull laws of chemistry and physics 'cannot account for these phenomena,' and 'life and matter are understood as two distinct kinds of energy.' Mr. Cohen said that 'Proof of the Darwinian theory of evolution must depend in the end on the fossil record. Darwin's theory required that all the different species of life were gradually transformed one into another through many small changes, mutations. Yet prominent paleontologists such as Eldridge and Gould are now maintaining that the fossil record only supports the view that species remain static in form and that changes between them, if they do really occur at all, can only occur by abrupt leaps. An examination of possible causes for such leaps shows that they could only be accounted for by the action of a higher intelligence,' he said. Dr. Thompson dealt with the mathematical analysis of the laws of nature studied in modern chemistry and physics. In the light of the modern theory of information, these laws can be shown to be unable to account for the highly complex and unique structures of living organisms. It can also be shown that the quantum-mechanical laws suffer from serious shortcomings, because they cannot account for the nature of any conscious observer. Both of these lines of evidence supported the view that the living being is a nonphysical entity and that the behavior of matter when in the presence of life proves that there must be further higher order laws and principles as yet unknown to modern science. All of these conclusions were in agreement with the observed phenomena of life and they also corroborate the systematic description of the nature of life given in Bhagavad-gītā. There was a general agreement among the participants of the conference that this approach to understanding the nature of life provided a viable alternative to the materialistic view of modern science."

Prabhupāda: How do you like article?

Guest (2): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Institute is doing something scientifically to understand God consciousness. That is proof. And it is well advertised. And we shall go on proceeding like that more and more. So many scientists, foreign and local, they participated, discussed. It is not ordinary thing. Hm?

Guest (2): Jaya.

Page Title:Evidence (Conversations 1976 - 1977)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, Mayapur
Created:22 of Feb, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=80, Let=0
No. of Quotes:80