Harikeśa: I finally understood why you were always talking to Svarūpa Dāmodara about inductive and deductive reasoning.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: Because it's just not possible to go the other way.
Prabhupāda: By inductive reason you cannot reach the truth perfectly.
Harikeśa: Because it's beyond the material creation and you have to use the material senses and mind to understand. It's not possible.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, our point is deductive. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is perfect.
Harikeśa: So first prove the existence of God and the existence of the spirit soul...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: ...and then, they'll just have to explain...
Prabhupāda: And then it's creation.
Harikeśa: And that it's creation. They'll just have to accept they have desires.
Prabhupāda: Aham evāsam evāgre. This is the Bhāgavata's first instruction to Brahma. Aham evāsam agre. Agre means in the beginning. So in the beginning Kṛṣṇa was there, then creation took place. Similarly in the beginning of this body, "I am spirit soul," was there. Then the body comes out. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is there, therefore the whole cosmic manifestation has come about. Aham evāsam agre. And at the end of the creation, Kṛṣṇa is there. Similarly at the end of this body, I am there. Again I'll create another body. This is going on.
Harikeśa: It's Kṛṣṇa's trick just to give us this facility.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: This is Kṛṣṇa's trick just to give us facility.
Prabhupāda: And because I wanted it. Kṛṣṇa doesn't want it. But because you are rascals we wanted it. Kṛṣṇa (says,) "Alright, do it."
Harikeśa: So therefore, in the beginning Kṛṣṇa gives you the big post, Brahmā.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: Now you're in charge of creating a whole universe.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you want lord it over, "Alright you become Brahma." He gives so much facility.
Harikeśa: And then this Brahmā creates so many different desires, and then he goes through all the different bodies.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Akṣayānanda: Everyone becomes Brahmā first?
Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Or if you want to be a cat you can become.
Harikeśa: How can they say this isn't science? This is so incredible.
Prabhupāda: Desire is there. Desire is there. Just like in your country, the nudism going on. The desire is, "Ah, I shall remain free, naked." So Kṛṣṇa is giving you facility, "Alright, you stand here for thousands of years as tree, naked, nobody will criticize. You want to remain naked on the public street and you want to enjoy in that way, alright you become tree."
Harikeśa: Because desire is a function of consciousness, which is a symptom of the spirit soul, it's very powerful.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: Because it's spiritual actually.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Abhilāṣ means desire. Anya means "except service of Kṛṣṇa." That is beginning of bhakti. As soon as he desires something material for enjoyment he has to come to Me. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). The mind and the senses; with these things he is struggling for existence. Otherwise he is part and parcel of Krs..., mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhutaḥ jīva-loka sanātana (BG 15.7). He is eternal but because he is influenced by the mind, desires, and the senses, sense enjoyment, he is struggling. This is it, a struggle. So when he is too much fatigued, Kṛṣṇa comes and gives you good counsel. "You rascal give up these all desires. Surrender to Me, I give you protection." But he'll not do that. And if he agrees then anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11), all material desires, zero. Then bhakti begins. And if you have got a little pinch of material desires, then you have to accept different types of body. It will create, naturally. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). He is desiring under the influence of particular modes of nature, and he's getting body.
Harikeśa: One has to be very careful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise even a devotee like Bhārata Mahārāja, he had to accept the body of a deer. A little careless. Then nature's law will act. Hm? If you do not become cautious and if you infect the smallpox disease, you have to suffer. Therefore a civilized man takes process, caution, "Oh there is smallpox disease, I shall not go there. Or if I go there, I must take vaccine." This is human civilization, caution. And if you are animal, you do not know. So human life means not animal life. Very reasonable, very cautious, educated, cultured, that is human life. Not animal life. Drink like animal, or eat like animal, have sex life like animal. Freedom, animal has got all freedom. So that freedom is not allowed to the human beings. That is civilization. The same example. The animal has got freedom and you'll see in Indian market, vegetable market, some cow comes and eats, takes so many vegetables and eats, but he's not going to the court. But if you take one small piece of chili without, then you'll go to the court. So therefore, law is meant for human beings, not for the animals. Those who want to be free, they are animals. So-called freedom means animalism. That is not humanism. Humanism means to follow the rules and regulations and the laws, and then he is human being. Because law is meant for the human being, not for the animals. And when you come out from your home, immediately the law is keep to the right. And if you violate, immediately you go to the law. But a dog, he doesn't care. If you say, "A dog does not obey this law," that is no excuse. You are human being. If you don't obey then you go to jail. So many animals are on the street naked, they're having sex life, naked. You do, immediately you'll be prosecuted. Why? Because you are a human being. You have to restrain. Even if you like. Just like the Hawaii University students, "What is the wrong to become a dog?" So if you think like that then you become a dog, nature is ready to give you a dog's body. That is (Sanskrit). He's thinking, "The dog's life is very nice. This liberation of sex life on the street." "Alright, you take dog's body." Yaṁ yaṁ vā... Bhāvam... ah, what is that?
Harikeśa: Smaran bhāvam.
Prabhupāda: Ha. Tyajanty ante kalevaram.
Caitya-guru: Taṁ tam evaiti kaunteya.
Prabhupāda: Ha. "So you are thinking like dog, alright you take the body of a dog." And finished. Your human life is finished. And again wait for millions of years to come to the human form of life. Nature's law you cannot check. Daivī hi eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). The law is there. The same example, if you contaminate some disease, the law is you must suffer from that disease. So they are thinking "free." That is their gross ignorance.
Hari-śauri: It's very important then to accept some tapasya.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hari-śauri: It's very important to accept some tapasya to purify your desires.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is, that requires tapasya. Tapo divyam (SB 5.5.1). Tapasya means to purify the desire. Tat paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Therefore if you simply keep your desires to the service of Kṛṣṇa, you become purified.