Prabhupāda: Factories and industry and export and import and then slaughterhouse, drinking, prostitute—these are all British contribution. In India, before that, they did not know, although there was Muhammadan kingdom. Muhammadans were happy as ruler. They did not... They thought that "Let them execute their own religion, and let us our religion." That was the relation. And Hindus, they took it that "Somebody must be government..." (break) ...policy that "If the Indians remain as Indian, it will be impossible to govern. Give them education and condemn everything Indian." And they engaged their own men, engaged our men, and gradually they developed the industry. Naturally people became very much astonished: "Oh, they are making such a nice bridge. We have now laid down the railway. We have got facilities, so on, so on..." They gave them, for developing these enterprises, a little knowledge in English, ABCD, they would get good job. In this way they established. Money and export, import... This business enterprise and industry, these..., all these things, were introduced. There was not a single factory before British days. Industry idea is completely Western. And tea garden.
Education (Conversations 1977)
Expressions researched:
"coeducation"
|"education"
|"educational"
|"educationally"
|"educations"
|"educative"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: This education is lacking throughout the whole world, and we have started this movement to give this education, and people are against. That means they have become so fallen that they cannot even take up right knowledge. The same proverb: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." So we have to struggle against this darkness, but we have to do it. This is our mission. We cannot stop it. It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, para-upakāra. People are kept in darkness, and... That is not Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Kṛṣṇa's mission actually. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). "When people are misguided," tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham, "at that time I come down." So the whole world is misguided on this bodily concept of life, and this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means Kṛṣṇa has come down in the shape of this movement. That is the real fact. Nāma-rūpe kṛṣṇa kali-kāle avatāra. "In the Kali-yuga Kṛṣṇa is incarnated in the form of His name, Hare Kṛṣṇa." Therefore in this age... That... Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). This is the injunction of the śāstras. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. Simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, mukta-saṅga, he becomes free from all this material contamination, and he paraṁ vrajet, he goes back home, back to... So this name is not different.
Prabhupāda: Miscreant. They are called duṣkṛti. They have got merit, but engaged in sinful activities. That is called duṣkṛti. Kṛti means meritorious. But duṣkṛtina. There are now... The education is there, but their brain is misused. That is called duṣkṛtina. Therefore they do not believe in God. Big, big men, they are nirākāra-vādī.
Dr. Patel: This co-education is no education at all. Education, that was really imparted by (indistinct) and ...
Prabhupāda: Education... This is craftsmanship.
Dr. Patel: I had an appointment to speak on education in the university of Bombay as a member of the Senate. And all the members of the Senate simply said, "Well, we could not help it because it has been so planned by the government." That is not ... This is not education that we're giving them. We are just giving them instruction how to read and write. The real education is the education of the mind by which you can discriminate what is right from the wrong and follow the right. That is what for the education. Modern universities are humbugness to me... The way I observed the university of Bombay working for ten years as a member of the Senate is humbug. The curricular is humbug; management is humbug; everything. Mode of examination is also like that.
Prabhupāda: Because they are not conducted by really educated.
Dr. Patel: The education that has been actually put in practice in India by MacCauley was just to prepare people to run their institutions.
Prabhupāda: Where is Girirāja? Can you call him?
Hari-śauri: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He said, Girirāja, that there is some declaration by Vinoda Bhave that "I'm now going to retire."
Dr. Patel: Who? Vinobari.(?) (Vinoda Bhave?)
Prabhupāda: "Completely. And now I shall endeavor for mokṣa." So that means till now he was not on the liberation platform.
Indian: He is... Vinoda Bhave is real brāhmaṇa. He is truly a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes I know that. That may be. Brāhmaṇa is sattva-guṇa. That may be, but that does not mean liberation. There is knowledge. At least he understands what is liberation and what is not.
Jagadīśa: As in Hyderabad.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then our movement is success. Our only motive is how people become interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have no other motive. No economic problem... Economic problem is... What is economic problem? We produce our own food and cloth, barely, and spiritual life... On the farm it is easier. And if they are dispatched to the city for livelihood, there are big, big roads and big, big cars and big, big anxieties. Then wine, meat, and so on, so on..., suicide, their spiritual life finished. These rascals are protesting. They have no ideas of spiritual life. They think this is life, to be merry, enjoy and drink. "Eat. Drink. Be merry." How they are committing suicide, they do not know. Nature's law is very stringent. They are foolish rascal. There is no education for them. Still, if we try, many men will be saved. So write very elaborately how to do this. Increase. And in your country, we increase this farm project any unlimited number... So much land is lying vacant. We can utilize the wood for constructing residences. And as soon as the jungle is clear, we can utilize it for growing food and keeping cows, as exactly they are doing in New Vrindaban. The cows are very happy. In our original New Vrindaban... What you have named it?
Prabhupāda: But if you have to work under government regulation, then you cannot do it. You won't get government help.
Indian lady: But I want to convert it into gurukula on the basis of Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Our gurukula means how to teach them to become self-controlled. That is first business. This literary education secondary, grammar secondary. The first necessity is how to create them śānta, dānta, self-controlled.
Indian lady: But we have got from Punjab Board and education board...
Prabhupāda: And therefore I say, if you have to work under government control, it is very difficult. If you can work independently, then it is possible.
Indian lady: It is independent. I'm independent. I'm doing everything.
Prabhupāda: No, if you take government help...
Indian lady: But the students go for examination in the board also.
Prabhupāda: Examination or no examination, if you, they practice the rules, that is sufficient examination. Suppose one of the items, that one has to rise early in the morning... So if one is rising early in the morning, then what is the examination? That is already examined. If one has to rise early in the morning, attend the maṅgala-ārati, sitting in the class and reading Bhagavad-gītā, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa... These are all practical. There is no need of examination. If he is doing, then it is examination passed.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, if you want to satisfy the parents, the government, then it is not possible. You have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa.
Indian lady: They have to go in colleges.
Prabhupāda: I know that. Therefore I said that if you have to satisfy so many masters, it is not possible.
Dr. Patel: At the most she can give some sort of a cultural education along with those programs.
Prabhupāda: What that cultural...? If he does not practice, what is that culture? It is practice.
Dr. Patel: Practice in Bhagavad-gītā and practice..., in the subjects.
Prabhupāda: What is the use? They will produce that, such blind leaders.
Dr. Patel: They will not produce so bad leaders perhaps. At least they will have a little better understanding than those fools who have no background of religion at all. Well, your schools, so-called secularism, means no religion.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to follow the śāstra. Then it will be possible. Brahmacārī gurukule...
Prabhupāda: Pandiya means paṇḍita. Brāhmaṇa. (Hindi) Illiterate.
Indian man: Actually if a man is literate but if there is no saṁskāra, I can't say he is better than... If saṁskāra is there and no education, then still I call he is better man. The man without saṁskāra is nothing.
Prabhupāda: It is..., that brahmacārī means saṁskāra, to become satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñāna... Jñāna... You can have knowledge simply by hearing, not by reading books.
Indian man: Yes, by reading and writing all these things. (Hindi) By hearing, knowledge by hearing.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It gave him rāja-vidyā, which that Mrs. Dutt... you know that editor of that government paper? So I just wanted him to have a final look, grammatical... (Hindi)
Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What are these beads?
Prabhupāda: I do not know. It was lying here, so I have packed.
Prabhupāda: Is it possible to stop it? Or young men, if he says "No, no, I'm not going to..." but everyone wants that. Young man does not want to become old man, but by nature's law he has to become.
- prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
- guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
- ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
- kartāham iti manyate
- (BG 3.27)
So the idea is that after losing our own culture, we have become set of fools. This is the real conclusion. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). We have become so lowest of mankind and mūḍha and full of sinful activities that we cannot understand what Kṛṣṇa says. This is real position. I am not speaking—Kṛṣṇa says. This is the sign. If one does not hear Kṛṣṇa, then he must be grouped in these categories: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. What is the value of their so-called education if they cannot understand the simple truth, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13)? What is the value of this education? Today I may be very big man, but I do not know that there is dehāntara. And what kind of deha I am going to get? Nobody has any knowledge, neither they're interested to cultivate. They have concluded that "After death, everything is finished." This is their education. Blind. Westerners, they say it frankly. That big, big professor, I have talked: "Swamiji, after death everything is finished." This is their conclusion. And our first education is that: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. And they have given up everything. Kartāham iti manyate. (Hindi) If you do not know the science, simply by false prestige you say "No, whatever I am thinking, it is all right." Are you free? You are completely under the laws of material nature. Why you are thinking foolishly? This is Indian culture. Even in the village, remotest village, you go and they will say, (Hindi) pūrva-janme... (Hindi) They'll say. This is India's culture, pūrva-janma, paro-janma, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. And you have lost your sense. What kind of education? What is the value of this education? Very precarious condition.
Prabhupāda: These people or that people, I don't mind.
Guest (1): Yes, sir. We have the secular India concept.
Prabhupāda: Again why you are bringing "secular India"? This is a science. Science, science, scientific knowledge—so does it mean the secular India, they should stop scientific education?
Guest (1): No religion can be backed up like that.
Prabhupāda: No, why you bring religion at all? It is science. Religion is a kind of faith. But science is not faith. You may have faith or may not have faith. Science, "Two plus two equal to four," everywhere. Why they forget this? This is a science, vijñāna. Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānaṁ idaṁ vakṣyāmy aśeṣataḥ (BG 7.2). It is vijñāna. And they are interpreting in different way, "Two plus two equal five." Big, big men, they are doing that. Two plus two equal five because somebody, some big man has said? This is going on. Somebody said, "Two plus two equal to three"; somebody says "Two plus two equal five." "In my opinion it is five." And somebody: "In my opinion it is three." What is this nonsense? This is going on. And they are big men. They are leaders, mūḍha. This is the position of India.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is very worried. That is described by Prahlāda Mahārāja. When Hiraṇyakaśipu... After all, they are father and son. He inquired from the son, "My dear son, what best thing you have learned?"S So he said, "My dear..." He did not say "My dear father." He said "The best of the asuras." He addressed his father, "The best of the asuras." Tat sādhu manye asura varya dehinam. "My dear the best of the asuras..." He was the best of the asuras. "So I think that is best education..." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām. Dehināṁ sadā samudvignam asad-grahāt. (break) We have got good rooms like this, not that one has to go to the forest. Even in the Vṛndāvana we have got very good room, but nobody's coming. This is the position. After fiftieth year, voluntarily one must commit civil suicide—no family. And that is Vedic. But he will think of family up to the point of being killed by this revolver. This is going on. Even Gandhi, what to speak of others. He presented himself as very tyāgī, but unless he was killed, he did not give up his ambition. "How my sons, how my countrymen will be happy?" And what happiness you can give? You are not God. Who is taking care of them? But this is māyā. He was thinking, "If I am not there, then whatever I have got, it will be finished."
Prabhupāda: No, jñānī... One can become jñānī in a moment, provided he wants. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). So jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. So if one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, he's jñānavān. Otherwise he's a rascal. So if you don't teach how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then he remains a rascal. That's all.
Indian (1): It is our duty to teach, to educate the people.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is education, that "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Otherwise he's not education.
Indian (1): To guide them how to surrender the Almighty. That is our duty.
Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is Almighty. And Almighty is canvassing, and people are refusing. Almighty says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). So here is Almighty, but who is teaching that "Here is Almighty. Surrender to Him"?
Indian (1): That is asuri sampatti.
Prabhupāda: This is going on.
Prabhupāda: Refusal or not, (?) people do not teach also, that "Here is Kṛṣṇa, the Almighty, the Supreme. You surrender here." And the Almighty is canvassing, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. But they'll not do that. And neither their so-called leaders will teach them to do that. So this is going on. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You become a guru." Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "You become a guru and deliver them." So "I am a fool. I have no education. How can I become a guru?" So answer is "No, no. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128)." If you simply advise people what Kṛṣṇa has said, then you become guru. But if you manufacture your ideas, then you are not a guru.
Indian (1): He has to teach what is the message of the Lord.
Prabhupāda: This is the message, "Surrender unto Me." The message... God is canvassing, that "Surrender unto Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya: (BG 18.66) "Give up all this nonsense engagement. Surrender unto Me." But they are not doing that. Mūḍha. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ na māṁ prapadyante. They're forgetting the real business, and they are engaged in some superfluous nonsense business.
Indian (1): Misunderstood Gītā. Now even they are not study. You see, there is no study at all. It is an unfortunate thing here. In our educational system, the slave system coming from British regime, still it is not changed. Unfortunately, whatever change we see, that change goes anti-religion. So the present generation is suffering.
Prabhupāda: Change means we have lost our culture.
Indian (1): They have lost culture, yes.
Prabhupāda: This is change.
Devotee: So Śrīla Prabhupāda is offering the real Indian culture...
Indian (1): Yes, that is correct. We have to fulfill all these things. We have to teach them, we have to guide them, advise them, make them study, for that purpose conducting some classes in Sanskrit in the Hindu community... (break)
Prabhupāda: He has allowed us to go to the United... (break) ...assembly to enlighten them. So we, are going there. Recent letter? Where is...? (end)
Prabhupāda: Sudurlabham. Sudurlabha: it is not very easily obtainable. Labdhvā manuṣyam. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān... (SB 7.6.1), durlabhaṁ manuṣya... Prahlāda Mahārāja says. Somewhere sudurlabham, somewhere durlabham. Durlabhaṁ manuṣyam. There is no education about the importance of manuṣya janma. They have taken it that we shall die once. Who says that once born, once we get the..., this and then finished? "Once life got." Some...?
Hari-śauri: Sometimes there's an advertisement in the papers, "You only live once, so buy this." They were selling... It was a land advertisement.
Prabhupāda: These rascals, they invent their theories. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara prāptir, and these rascals says "Once." Just see.
Prabhupāda: If he is in Vṛndāvana, that is good for him.
Rāmeśvara: He is crazy.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: Then it says, "Other things need to be done. We have to get supportive comments from professionals and authorities in areas of religion, education, mental health and physical health, law, and sociology. Statements by experts and professionals carry a lot of weight."
Prabhupāda: That is in our side.
Rāmeśvara: "Ask your contact to comment or express his opinion of such things as that this is not a matter of religion; that there is resulting mental and physical harm; the right of self-determination means the right to have a free mind; destruction of the family unit..."
Prabhupāda: So if one has the right to have a free mind, why he cannot chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?
Rāmeśvara: Well, their argument is that we do not allow him to consider alternatives.
Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of a free mind? That means you brainwash.
Prabhupāda: That means there is no money.
Rāmeśvara: But one recent development which will change that is that they have appealed to the government that they are an educational group. Therefore they should be tax exempt like any other educational organization, and the government has agreed. Now they have gotten their tax exemption, so now these parents can donate lots of... Different people will start donating lots of money to them as tax write-offs. So I think that we will see that their activities will be expanded this year, because now they are tax exempt, they'll get a lot of money.
Hari-śauri: That news article said that someone had given them $105,000. Some parents of a cult...
Prabhupāda: No, there are rich parents. They can do that. And every parent is unhappy. (chuckles)
Rāmeśvara: The fighting will increase this year. It's getting very acute, as you said in that letter.
Prabhupāda: So they are feeling the strength of Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (10): How to run away from the senses? I, being a servant of the senses, how to run away from the senses?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are servant. That is gosvāmī. That is svāmī, gosvāmī. Svāmī means when he's no longer servant of the senses, a master of the senses. That is svāmī.
Guest (10): How to come to that position?
Prabhupāda: That requires education, training. You have become a lawyer not in one day. You have been trained up. Then you are lawyer. Similarly, everyone has to be trained up how to become perfect servant, but he must agree in the beginning that "Now I shall become servant of Kṛṣṇa." Then everything is there. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ tataḥ athāsaktiḥ tato bhavaḥ (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). These are the different stages. Ādau śraddhā: "Yes. Now Kṛṣṇa says, 'You surrender.' I'll surrender. I believe in this, firmly believe." Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. This śraddhā means when you firmly believe that "Kṛṣṇa will give me all protection if I surrender." And that is the beginning of śraddhā.
Guest (10): Faith. Firm faith.
Prabhupāda: Faith. Yes. Faith means firm faith. Faith does not mean... Anyway, ādau śraddhā. This śraddhā, if we increase this śraddhā, you have to associate with sādhu.. And who is sādhu? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva samantavyaḥ. He is sādhu, who is simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. He is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāraḥ: "Even though you find there is some discrepancies in his character, because he is fully engaged in My service, he is sādhu." Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ (BG 9.30). If he has got other engagement, he is not sādhu. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam: (Brs. 1.1.11) "Other engagement zero." That is sādhu.
Rāmeśvara: His argument was that if God comes to this world and displays activities with women, it is natural that the followers of that religion will also want to have affairs with women.
Prabhupāda: No. Because they have not studied Kṛṣṇa, they misunderstand in that way. You are fond of woman. Kṛṣṇa comes to show you that in the Vaikuṇṭha, Goloka Vṛndāvana, there is woman, but not in this way. Originally there is. That is pure. So it requires education. You are not educated; you cannot talk. Now sex..., even in our material experience we find that by sex many great men has been found. So how you can accuse sex? You are talking. We should say, "You are a product of sex. So how do you say that sex is bad?"
Rāmeśvara: They say that when one man has many different women, then that is immoral.
Prabhupāda: No, first of all answer. Suppose you are a big man, but you are product of sex. Are you born differently or through sex? What is the answer?
Rāmeśvara: Sex.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sex is not bad. When it is misused, that is the defect. Otherwise, sex is not...
Rāmeśvara: The Western conception is that one man can only have one woman.
Prabhupāda: Why? If he can produce many big men, he can have hundreds of women. But you cannot do that. Therefore you are restrained. You are bad. You better restrain. Don't have sex, because you'll produce cats and dogs. But one who is able to produce great brain, great philosophers, he should produce hundreds. You do not know how to produce good brain. Therefore you stop! Don't produce cats and dogs. For you it is "Stop." You do not know how to use sex. Therefore you should stop. (break) You should not any more use sex. But one who can produce better brains should have hundreds of times. You must know how to produce. That is Vedic civilization, dharmaḥ saṁskāra idam...(?) It is not a secrecy, how to produce brain. And because brain is not produced, therefore there is agitation, that they have no brain. They do not know the value of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Rāmeśvara: In America this is becoming the number-one problem—unemployment.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They must be. Artificial employment. (train re-starts)
Rāmeśvara: People go to college in America; they can no longer get jobs. They spend so many years going to college getting their degree. So now they cannot find any jobs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the position in America. And what to speak of this country. Therefore, after being educated they go to foreign countries. You'll find so many Indians in educational labs(?) in your country, because they don't get any suitable jobs. (break) ...their so many departments will be closed.
Rāmeśvara: It's possible in India but not in America.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Rāmeśvara: The American people are... They consider it backwards. Prabhupāda: That has to be educated, that backward is real life.
Rāmeśvara: They think they have achieved a higher standard of freedom by traveling all over the world...
Prabhupāda: Where is your freedom? Where is your freedom if for your livelihood you have to go a hundred miles? Where is your freedom? Why you are illusioned? For your bread, you have to go hundred miles off, either by car or by train. So where is your freedom?
Rāmeśvara: The freedom is in leisure time. They have a lot of leisure time.
Rāmeśvara: There must be still education so the people will... Say we are one day...
Prabhupāda: No education, no. Education will be required only for the guiding class: brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, not for anyone, śūdras. They are two only. Others will... What education required? Suppose if you produce... If you..., you are accustomed to agriculture, cow protection, there is no need going to college and schools. If you remain illiterate, still you can do.
Rāmeśvara: But in America...
Prabhupāda: No, no, America is not... I am talking of the (indistinct), the class who will guide the aim of life, brāhmaṇa class, and a class that will give them protection from injuries by others, kṣatriya class. Then the next class, food-producing men, they do not require. Actually only brāhmaṇas, they require education, or all others, they will simply see and learn. So little education required—that you can learn by hearing only, that's all. Suppose a brāhmaṇa class says that "This is good; this is bad." So you hear and accept. It doesn't require to go to school and college. So education will be simplified. (break) It has become very much complicated.
Rāmeśvara: They have given too much power to the people, so the people demand so many things.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they're suffering. Ordinary people, what they'll do? Anarthas. Actually it is anartha. They have created so many things.
Prabhupāda: That we want.
Rāmeśvara: ...we will have to tolerate all these things—cinema, nightclubs. How can we close all these things? The people want these things.
Prabhupāda: No. If you educate people, if you give them better enjoyment, they'll give up.
Rāmeśvara: Very gradual.
Prabhupāda: Just like our men. They are not after cinema or brothel house or restaurants. It requires education.
Hari-śauri: We have to make them devotees.
Rāmeśvara: But can all the masses of people become devotees?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, cent percent devotees, by this process: ask them to chant and take prasāda.
Jagadīśa: People in general are very much inclined to accept whoever their leader is if they feel happy. So if we give them kīrtana and prasādam, if their economic needs are met, then how can they avoid? Economic needs are the main thing. That's why they...
Prabhupāda: If they can eat nicely and they have no complaint for living conditions, they will become.
Rāmeśvara: But they will not give up sex life.
Prabhupāda: No, no. I don't say that you give up sex life.
Rāmeśvara: Now in the Western countries, the standard of culture and education is coming from the idea of the Renaissance in Europe.
Prabhupāda: That is not culture. That is not culture. As soon as you change, that means it is not culture. It is mano-dharma, mental concoction. Culture is never changed, Renaissance and (sic:) Fennaissance.
Rāmeśvara: This is something that has been constant for many hundreds of years, the idea that a man is learned when he is well-learned, when he is educated in many different fields-literature, art, music.
Prabhupāda: That does not mean the original culture will be lost. That is not culture.
Rāmeśvara: No. But this is their argument, that the standard in America is that you become learned in different fields: science, music, art, literature. But in our Hare Kṛṣṇa movement we are isolating all these things and simply reading one set of literature-Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: And therefore our people cannot speak about art, music.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We want to stop your nonsense. That is our mission. Those who are intelligent, they have taken. And you also take. It will take some time.
Prabhupāda: They have become Kṛṣṇa conscious from the very beginning. That is the perfection of life. They are perfect from the very beginning of their life. And you are going to school, college; you are becoming most uncivilized, cats and dogs. So what is the value of this education? Phalena means result. Result is hippie. So what is the use of Western... Stop all these colleges and universities. The sooner they are stopped, it is better for the human beings. We want to stop it.
Rāmeśvara: Of course, if we tell them that, then they will think that we are anarchists.
Prabhupāda: First of all you say that we want to stop this nonsense, that is the name of education producing hippies. We want to stop it. You may take us whatever you like. We want gentlemen, not this hogs' and dogs' naked dance. You are hogs and dogs; you accept. But we cannot accept. We are birds of the same feather. We are cleansed. Let them become hogs and dogs. But the civilized(?) thing must go on. So we want to stop this. Is that education?
Rāmeśvara: Now they say if we are thinking of our members to be gentlemen, then why is it when they go to the airports they are bothering so many people?
Prabhupāda: They are not bothering; they are educating. You take... A rascal, when he is advised... A thief when he's advised, "Kindly do not become a thief," he takes it botheration, but that is good advice.
Gurudāsa: Consciousness must change.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (train sounds) So this is the train.
Rāmeśvara: Yes. Still, in some people there will always be some greed how to make money by sinful means.
Prabhupāda: No, everyone is greedy. Therefore education required, spiritual. They should be greedy for Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). When they will see this is better position, so their greediness will be for Kṛṣṇa and other thing will be left away.
Rāmeśvara: And the state will not tolerate...
Prabhupāda: Four classes of sinful activities should be stopped by the state.
Rāmeśvara: No manufacturing liquor, cigarettes.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prabhupāda: Tax invention? What is that?
Rāmeśvara: They call themselves educational organizations. They are educating the public because they do speaking engagements at colleges and different places. So on the basis of that, they applied to the federal government, "Please, we are just an educational group. You must give us tax exemption." So they have been given that. Now people can donate money to them. Instead of paying taxes to the U.S. government, they can donate money to them in exchange for paying taxes. (laughs) So the fighting will get more...
Prabhupāda: Intense.
Rāmeśvara: This year, definitely. But that means more propaganda for us, more publicity.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (chuckling)
Rāmeśvara: And I look forward to it, because we'll smash them in each confrontation. They now realize that when they have a debate against us, they always lose. We have had maybe five or six confrontations in Los Angeles on television and on the radio, and every time they lose. And every time they go away like this.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) You can keep there under the bath section. I'll wash there.
Hari-śauri: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Dead.
Gargamuni: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just see the policy.
Gargamuni: But they, I think annihilated all of the... Anyone who had any education... Just like that boy. He was translating your books? They shot him in front of firing squad. One boy. I printed one book there in Bengali, I think, three thousand copies: The Peace Formula and Who is Crazy, I think. It was about fifteen pages. They gave me some donation. Even the Gopāla... His name was Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Brahmacārī. He also gave me from his pocket. And I printed... We had it translated in Bengali, but then...
Prabhupāda: He was killed?
Gargamuni: Yes, for translating. He was shot in... Not him but this other brahmacārī, young boy, very nice boy. His name was Karuṇāmayī.
Rāmeśvara: For translating it they did it.
Gargamuni: Yes, for translating. They wanted to annihilate anyone who had any literary talent. That was their idea. Or anyone who had any education. So that after they left the country there wouldn't be anything. Because they knew they had to leave one day because of the revolutionary spirit. So they thought, "Let us ravage the whole country and then leave." And that's what they did. Their main attack was the university. When I was there that was their first attack 'cause that university was a very old one and...
Prabhupāda: Yes, Dacca University next to Calcutta University. Just see how human beings are becoming less than ferocious animals.
Prabhupāda: Only fault that he was making some...
Gargamuni: No, his fault was that he had some education. Anyone who was doing anything... This one boy who was translating your books, he was a very educated person. He was about thirty years old.
Prabhupāda: Hindu.
Gargamuni: Hindu. Yes. He was brahmacārī there at the āśrama. He was the chief pūjārī. But he joined us. We toured a few areas, and he came with us and arranged for everything. And he joined us, and he was translating.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Now take this.
Gargamuni: And we printed the book. I saw it. But then the war broke out a few days after it was ready, so I had to leave all the copies there. When I go there I will try and find it. Maybe it is still there. We spent about five hundred rupees. Five, six hundred rupees.
Prabhupāda: What Pakistan has gained by this separation? Actually they have not gained.
Gargamuni: By the separation.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: I could understand his position. Now he's going to be dismissed.
Rāmeśvara: No, it's a fact that people go to college in America, but they cannot get good jobs when they graduate. If they have not taken specialized training in engineering or something...
Prabhupāda: That is technical, technology.
Rāmeśvara: ...technical. But if they have a general education, they cannot get a good job.
Gargamuni: And this is... māyā's kick in India is that they read these books, they go to school, and when they come out there's no job.
Prabhupāda: No job.
Gargamuni: And they have to become these... They work in the hotels, the five stars. Hotel work.
Prabhupāda: No. There was a news, "For five hundred post there was three lakhs' application."
Hari-śauri: In the railways.
Prabhupāda: In the railways. There were five hundred posts vacant, and the application was three lakhs. Every time this is the... Many educated... Therefore they became Naxalites.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So much.
Rāmeśvara: Yes. They had to do that because their economy was ruined. He had taken away... This man was crazy. He had taken away all the tariffs, so that foreign countries were supplying their products in Australia, and the local businessmen..., local manufacturers were going out of business. So many problems. And they're so proud of their modern culture, modern education and advancement, but they're being blackmailed by the Arabs. The Arab countries are considered very undeveloped, and the Western world is so proud how advanced they are, yet they are now being blackmailed by the Arabs for oil. So what is the use of their advancement? And now whatever the Arabs want, they have to do.
Prabhupāda: I think he is not returning. He's gone forever. Gargamuni: Who?
Hari-śauri: Devi-dhāma. Oh, no. He's back. He's back.
Gargamuni: Just now.
Prabhupāda: So what did he bring?
Rāmeśvara: So they have become completely dependent on oil.
Prabhupāda: Anything artificial, it will break. You cannot make a scheme of mental concoction. That will not endure. You take standard it will be beneficial. The whole world is in chaotic condition because they have so many artificial way of living.
Prabhupāda: Just see. God has to be created by public survey. Just see how degraded.
Rāmeśvara: But anyway, these surveys show that religious sentiment in America is increasing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is proof. You are the proof. There is no doubt. They are intelligent. Intelligent and there is no poverty. In other countries, on account of poverty, they are thinking, "First of all we must be materially prosperous. Then we shall think all this nonsense God." This is then... This propaganda is going on, "What you'll, can do by God. First of all we must have sufficient to eat, sufficient to drink." And this is their philosophy. How they can...? There is a Sanskrit verse that daridra-doṣo guṇa-rāśi-nāśaḥ: "If somebody is poverty-stricken, all other qualities become useless." And nowadays the education is for money. One has passed D.H.C., Ph.D., but if he does not get an employment, then what is the value? He's begging from here: "Sir, will you give me some service?" That's all.
Rāmeśvara: Actually you wrote that, that the educational system simply turns man into a dog going from door to door, begging for some...
Prabhupāda: This is... Why the Indian professors are going outside?
Gargamuni: Brain-drain, they have called.
Prabhupāda: They come to us.
Rāmeśvara: Yes. They come to us. "Whites and nonwhites attend with equal frequency." Not that the white people are more religious; black people are less. "People with a college background are more likely to go to church regularly than those who never went to college, but people who never went..." In other words, they're saying if you went to high school but you did not go to college, the chances are you will not go to church as much as if you went to college. But if people went to grade school and then they left without going to high school or without going to college... That means they left at, say, fifteen years old. Then they have the best chance for going to church. That means the less education you are given in America, the more religious.
Prabhupāda: That is everywhere.
Rāmeśvara: But it's very interesting that they are saying that so many millions of people are practicing yoga or interested in meditation or the Eastern religions or mysticism-millions of Americans. And formerly, I remember, in the 1960's, it was a new thing. Actually when you came, that was the beginning. Before you came to America there was a little bit of interest in some concoction which they call Zen Buddhism.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The southern part.
Rāmeśvara: Yes. South of Florida. So his main motive was how to find India, to get the wealth of India.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gargamuni: So it seems all over the world there was a greater interest in education, in art, and in India at the time when Lord Caitanya appeared.
Hari-śauri: The church was its strongest as well in Europe at that time, religion, very strong.
Prabhupāda: Christ also went, came to India.
Rāmeśvara: That is not believed in the West.
Prabhupāda: That is to keep their prestigious position.
Gargamuni: Many scholars... There's a place in Kashmir where they say his samādhi is there.
Rāmeśvara: There is a period of years which no one can account for.
Prabhupāda: No, even from Christian religion it is proved how uncivilized were the Westerners. "Thou shall not kill." Now, how uncivilized they were. Even they take it the human killing, it is meant, not animal killing. So what kind of society it is?
Hari-śauri: Don't kill human beings.
Rāmeśvara: "This is a rare opportunity for people and leaders of every country, every race, and every community in the world to know and understand the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. I would say that this encyclopedia of spiritual knowledge is more important and fundamental than the encyclopedia of any other branch of knowledge and should therefore find a rightful place not only in the public and private libraries, big and small, not only in educational and other institutions, but also in every household, and above all, in the hearts and minds of every man and woman."
Prabhupāda: And he is not ordinary man. He is...
Rāmeśvara: No. He is the Deputy of Lok Sabha Secretariat. You should write more... I have to go over this with you to get more descriptions of each place. Central Government.
Gargamuni: I have... Oh, right. I have the full reviews too.
Rāmeśvara: And like if it says Sardar Patel University, where is that?
Gargamuni: In Gujarat.
Rāmeśvara: I just have to add a few things.
Hari-śauri: Will you be going for a walk this morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda? It's quarter to seven. If you want to go now, we could go.
Prabhupāda: Hm. So let us go.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is degradation, there is no question of improvement. So this is going on. This is nature's way, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19), appearance and disappearance.
Rāmeśvara: Now, this Kṛṣṇa conscious government... Will many of the things that are going on in America, like schools and education, teaching people to read and write...
Prabhupāda: They'll have to reform.
Rāmeśvara: That will all continue, but it will be adjusted so that Kṛṣṇa consciousness...
Prabhupāda: Yes, Gurukula, Gurukula education.
Rāmeśvara: Still we'll be teaching subjects like history and math.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Without teaching, how the human society will exist? There must be.
Hari-śauri: No, he's talking about some of the subjects they teach now.
Rāmeśvara: Material science as well as spiritual science?
Prabhupāda: No. No, no. There is no need of so-called material science—how to kill children in the womb. These things will be kicked out. Nonsense.
Guest (2): One aspect. One aspect we have taken, that supreme, the message, essence...
Prabhupāda: No, no... It is... Kṛṣṇa-līlā is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, why don't you begin from the first chapter of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam? Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Just show how Kṛṣṇa is supreme, how everything is coming, coming from Him. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāt (SB 1.1.1). These things explain by picture. That will be real education. Why you jump over on the Tenth Canto immediately? That is my point.
Guest (1): No, we understand. We are depicting the...
Prabhupāda: Begin.
Indian man: ...aspect, supreme superman.
Prabhupāda: Just like one learns from ABCD, not jumping over M.A. class. That is my point. Teach people from the ABCD. So this is the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). What Kṛṣṇa? He is the original. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Show that by film, how He is sarvasya prabhavo. That will be...
Guest (1): So He is always supreme power.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Not... You are going to produce some film. Begin from the first chapter of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Why you jump over the Tenth Canto? That is kept very confidential. Unless one understands... By understanding nine cantos of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he has no entrance. Just like you cannot enter into the law college unless you are graduate. So Śukadeva Gosvāmī has arranged in such a way that one should understand what is Kṛṣṇa by reading these nine cantos. Then he can enter into the Kṛṣṇa's līlā and Kṛṣṇa's birth. What is the purpose? He could have given Kṛṣṇa... Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is for Kṛṣṇa. So we have named this, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-katha.
Guest (1): This Viśva-rūpa.
Prabhupāda: No, our... Just like we are making Kṛṣṇa consciousness propaganda all over...
Guest (2): That, education, not for... Education.
Prabhupāda: That is wanted. What is Kṛṣṇa you should understand.
Guest (2): That is education, not propaganda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So these boys, they are advised to follow the regulative principle: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no fish, no egg, no onion. So many "no's."
Guest (2): That is also...
Guest (1): No, Guruji, you cannot take these persons who are by this strictness as your disciple only.
Prabhupāda: No. Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like our this Kṛṣṇa book, from the very beginning, or Bhagavad-gītā. You try...
Guest (2): So eleven or twelve days' time... We have posted the letter on seventh, and yesterday this gentleman from here rang me that "You were searching for the Guruji, and he is at..." "Nonsense." When I am busy giving some dictation to my steno. "He is humbug." So from there we came here.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So if you want to give education, take it from the very beginning, ABCD, and present nicely so that people may..., can take advantage.
Guest (1): We have that līlā also, Bāla-līlā. The children chant...
Prabhupāda: Bāla-līlā also will not be understood. They will think, "What is this?" That is stated in the Śrīmad... Itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena, māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakena. Māyāśritānām. They'll not.... They'll: "What is this nonsense? A boy is playing, and they are worshiping Him?" That's it. These people will take like that, that "What is that? A boy is playing with some cows and calves, and these foolish persons are worshiping." They will take it.
Guest (2): It is said also there. When Yasoda tries to beat Him, oh, He shows the universe.
Prabhupāda: So who will understand that?
Guest (2): No, no, no, no, all understand it. All will understand, sir.
Prabhupāda: So beginning means from the Bhāgavata beginning or from Bhagavad-gītā begins.
Guest (2): But when Vasudeva is coming with Kṛṣṇa, and Yamunā goes out, goes out, and it makes a way and that...
Guest (1): Years long back, Orissa was full devotees of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, long back.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I know that.
abhupāda: Huh?
Satsvarūpa: Then if people say, "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement doing?"
Prabhupāda: Don't you see? You have no eyes? Who is publishing these books? If you have education, read it. Simply jumping like monkey is good, do you think? Here is intelligence and appreciation. Do you mean to say...? The monkey is very busy. Who likes that? After all, it is monkey. So your doing something is like jumping of the monkey and dogs. Who likes it? And you are simply creating problem by your so-called busy-ness. Better you stop and read our books and be intelligent. Lazy mischief-maker, it is better than busy mischief maker. Busy mischief maker means he'll commit more mischief. Just like monkey. What is the use of his becoming busy? He'll simply create mischief. So better... An lazy mischief maker is better than the busy mischief maker.
Rāmeśvara: Maybe you should just read some of those letters.
Satsvarūpa: The note from Svarūpa Dāmodara? This is January 15th. (break)
Prabhupāda: Vaiśyas also. Śūdras also.
Prabhupāda: Gurukṛpa Mahārāja, what is the benefit of this modern education?
Gurukṛpa: No benefit. It makes them an ass.
Prabhupāda: Making them demons, that's all.
Gurukṛpa: They become puffed-up, thinking they know something. They don't know anything.
Prabhupāda: Not only that, modern educated youths, they are not inclined to come to the farm. So they're giving up their own father's property, farm. They do not come back from city. The farmers' children go to cities for education, and after so-called education the rascals do not come. Here also and in your country also, America and... They want city life and enjoy restaurant and prostitute.
Satsvarūpa: There is a song, "How are you going to keep them on the farm after they've seen Paris?" They don't want to go back.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So much land sitting. Huge land is lying vacant, and they are complaining, "Orissa is poor. Please..." Why poor? Why don't you work? You must remain poor. You do not produce your food. Kuyoginaṁ kuśam upaiti lakṣmiṇī.(?) If you work hard, Lakṣmī will come. Our institution is working so hard, all our devotees. Therefore we have no scarcity. We are not bābājīs, taking a mala and smoking bidi. "I do not go beyond Vṛndāvana." Rascal, loitering and associating with so many women, and they have become puffed-up, paramahaṁsas, Rūpa Gosvāmī, imitation Rūpa Gosvāmī. Only a loincloth of Rūpa Gosvāmī. No education, no book writing, no going out of Vṛndāvana, begging. And therefore government's capturing them and giving this injection. What is that? Sterilization. Yes, just see. So many illegal children are born by these women. Bhajana. Bhajana kara. One bābājī has at least three women, four women. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Qualified, that is not very difficult. For the girl, find out a boy who is hard worker or a little educated. Bas. That's all. That was the selection. Then fortune. You give a daughter under the care of the boy who can work hard. That's all. They then will earn their livelihood. Even there is no education, a hard worker will do. A boy, as soon as has got the sense that "I have got a wife to maintain," he'll work. That is impetus to give him to work for the family. And if a boy gets wife or woman without any hard working, they why he should marry? And if he has got responsibility that "I have to maintain my wife; then I can enjoy," then he becomes responsible. Wooden bridge?
Gurukṛpa: That is like Australia. That is Australia.
Prabhupāda: Australia?
Gurukṛpa: Yes, the whole country is...
Prabhupāda: Wooden bridge.
Gurukṛpa: Roads like this. Just in Melbourne and Sydney, nice roads. I think I saw better roads in India. I was very surprised.
Prabhupāda: Thing is they do not know engineering. They have no business.
Prabhupāda: Every gentleman should have a valuable library of these. That we want. Then our preaching is successful.
Hari-śauri: Once people recognize the worth of spiritual literature, then they'll purchase. Just like they sell these Encyclopedia Brittanicas from house to house.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri:...on the basis, "You've got so many children. They need this knowledge and education for when they go to school." So they purchase whole volumes.
Prabhupāda: Introducing as study book in higher colleges, universities, text book, then it will be... What is the use, a so-called scholar having a Ṣaṭ-sandarbha? And this has been failure... Our one Godbrother, he did. Simply he printed. It was not sold, and then it was mishandled, distributed like anything.
Hari-śauri: What was that?
Prabhupāda: That Ananta Vāsudeva, my Godbrother, he printed so many Gosvāmī literatures, but it was not successful.
Prabhupāda: Fifty-seven years after. (laughs) So the body has not changed? Where is that body? Now I am with stick. (laughter) Then I was jumping. Is not that? I am there. I remember. The body has changed. What is the difficulty to understand? I am the same person. How I am remembering all these things. But I have no... That body is now lost. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Why this simple philosophy these rascals cannot understand? I remember I am not the second man. I am the same person but I haven't got the same body. The whole world this simple philosophy cannot understand. Where is the difficulty? I cannot understand.
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara prāptir
- dhīra...
- (BG 2.13)
because they are not dhīra. Dhīra means sober. They're rascals. They cannot understand. But dhīras tatra na muhyati. Those who are sober, they can understand immediately. So there is no education to make people sober and intelligent. All rascals, fools, rogues, thieves, that's all. Animals. What they will understand about spiritual life? Therefore Kṛṣṇa... After all, Kṛṣṇa is speaking. This very word is used. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Adhira. There are two classes of men, dhīra and adhīra. Dhīra means sober, and adhīra means restless. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He gave us something... Dhīrādhīra. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra. What is next word?
Gargamuni: No. Even in Māyāpur we wake them up at four.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that must be. Why Māyāpur? Vṛndāvana, they are accustomed. Yā devī sarva-bhūteṣu nidra... This sleeping is the māyā's influence. It is stated in the... Yā devī sarva-bhūteṣu nidra-rūpeṇa saṁsthitaḥ.(?) The Devī, this material energy, has captured everyone, and she is there... The more one sleeps, that means he's under the control of māyā. And the more he is not sleeping, he's free from māyā. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau **. The Gosvāmīs, they conquered over three things: nidrā, sleeping; āhāra, eating; and mating. These things are the clutches of māyā. More we have sex, more we have eating, more we have sleeping, that means I am entangled. The more we conquer over it, we are free. That we have to try. Whether I am in the clutches of māyā or not can be tested—whether I am sleeping more, whether I am eating more, whether I am more sexually inclined. He can test himself. And bhakti means vairāgya-vidyā, to conquer over these three things. So practice this. They are... To rise early in the morning and attend maṅgala-ārati is compulsory. It is part of this education, spiritual education. And not to eat more than necessary. Then you'll not sleep more. You'll find, if you observe fast, you won't feel sleepy. Have you tested this?
Gargamuni: Yes. I can remember.
Gurukṛpā: The poor man, his office is cheating him, and then his wife stays home and spends all his money and he is being cheated by her.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He comes, taking so much trouble for the wife. He will lie down with her from eleven at night up to three o'clock. For that, that is home. This is his home. And to maintain this home, he has to take so much trouble. And this is civilization. He does not think, "For this little happiness why I am here? Better to become a sannyāsī and live independently. Why I'm taking so much...?" No. And after working so hard, in old age if you ask permission from the wife, "I have done so much for you, for family. Now let me retire." "Eh? You'll retire? Then who will look after me?" The home member not satisfied, and you are not satisfied. You are working so hard—how you can be satisfied? And they find still insufficient income. They are not satisfied. But what is this home? To sense gratification. You are not serving this woman. Because this woman, as soon as she is not able to serve you by her sex, then there is divorce. Nobody's serving anybody, but everybody is serving his own senses. So actually the man is serving his own senses, uṣṭra. He's eating his own blood and thinking, "Thorn very palatable." He's eating thorn. What is his palatable? Cutting the tongue and blood is coming out, and when the thorn's chewed with this blood, it makes little taste. Blood has got taste. And he's thinking, "Thorn is very nice." Therefore they have been called as uṣṭra. Uṣṭra eats own, drinks or eats his own blood, and takes the thorn as very good. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara. These animals have been specially mentioned: dog; viḍ-varāha, means hog; uṣṭra; and khara means ass. How Bhāgavata has selected. (laughs) Śva means dog. Dog, after technical education, if he does not get a post where he can use this computer and other big, big..., he's a dog. He goes to a bank, "Sir, I am expert in this machine work. Can you give me a job?" "No, no. There is no vacancy." Then again he puts his tail, goes another, another. What is use, this? The big, big technologists, unless they get a suitable job, they're just like dog. Dog is loitering in the street, no food. So these men with all this high technological knowledge, if they do not get a proper master, they are nothing but dog. This is university education. So dog and hog. Hog means he can eat any nonsense thing, whole day working, if he gets sex. Never mind whether mother, sister or daughter or any. You see the hog's family. They are very much sexually inclined, without any discrimination, and eating stool. This is his life. You see nowadays this man, he's eating anything, the hog's intestine.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Why you say, speak India or in England? The human intelligence is the same. There is no change. They have made like this: "East," "West" and "England," and... The psychology is the same. The ass is the same. The camel is the same. The dog is the same. We are talking of these dogs. Do you think that in Europe the dog is different from Indian dog? (laughs) They have created another problem. But we take: "You are all dogs. Either you be Indian or England or German, you are, after all, after dog. Your mentality is dog." They have created that "Indian dog is better than the English dog" or "English dog is better than German." What is better? It is dog. You are doglike and hankering after some job in America and amongst Europeans. The Indians are all doing that, the same education. Recently for a post of five hundred men there were three lakhs of applications. This is education. And you'll find uneducated Indian, still he's independent. You will find in Calcutta especially we have seen. Yes. In the morning they'll purchase a bag of potato. Say, he invests twenty rupees. Nowadays he'll sit down in a corner and make two rupees' profit. He invests twenty rupees, and he gets twenty-two. He's satisfied, poor man. Then in the, say, ten to twelve he'll purchase some dāl. He'll go home to home. He'll make another two rupees' profit. In the evening he'll take some kerosene oil, and he'll sell. Evening everyone requires kerosene oil. He'll make another two rupees. So he's illiterate. He makes six rupees' profit, five rupees' profit, and if he can, ten rupees' profit. And takes some chana cho(?), some peanuts, sit down. In this way he's independently earning five to ten rupees. And educated? He's just like dog—"Give me job"—and unemployed and eating at the cost of father or welfare activities, welfare department, and moving like dog. Just see practically. The uneducated, he's earning because he knows that "If I go with application, what education I have got? Nobody will like me." He's hopeless in that way. "So let me try in my own way." He's earning ten rupees. And the other man, he's starving and taking help from the government, eating at the cost of father. This is education. Otherwise he is becoming hippie. Is that education? And in the Vedic system—education for the brāhmaṇa, how to learn to be truthful, how to control senses, how to become educated in Vedic knowledge. It is for brāhmaṇa. Bas, education, a few men selected. Kṣatriya, he has to learn how to fight: "Go. Fight. Go in the forest and kill animals and lie, try again, learn how to kill." Education. Vaiśya—"Go to the field. See how the plow is moved, how to give protection to the..." Finish education. And śūdra, he has to work under the order of the master. Master says, "Do this": he'll do it. So where is education required, high education, university degrees? And the government is maintaining big, big building, big, big professor, and the professor is... What is that? You told me? Gargamuni was telling.
Prabhupāda: Devotee... Unless one is devotee, he cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Imaṁ rājarṣayo... Means at king, the same time...
Satsvarūpa: No. The king, if the king is a devotee, but one of the subjects says, "I still don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, but I want to live here also."
Prabhupāda: So king has the power to chastise him. Just like if this child says, "I don't believe in education," shall I have to accept? He must be punished. He's a child. He can say, "Father, I don't believe in education. Let me play." Will the father allow? Chastise him. That is king's duty.
Devotee (1): So if someone wanted to be, say, a Christian in the Kṛṣṇa conscious..., a society led by a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, if someone wanted to be a Christian, would he be chastised?
Prabhupāda: First of all, whether Christian is religion or, imperfect thing, we have to see that. The father does not chastise always. When the son does wrong, then he chastises. Otherwise why shall he chastise? Christian means if they... Religion means one who believes in God and abides by the order of God. That's his religion.
Satsvarūpa: So if they chanted Christos and stopped eating meat but they still wanted to follow the Bible...
Prabhupāda: No, Bible... But if they follow Bible, that is religion, approved. But they do not follow. Bible says, "Thou shall not kill." They are killing. So what kind of Christian he is? He's a nonsense.
Prabhupāda: English language understood. English... They speak in English. In big, big cities like Bombay, Calcutta, Delhi, even the girls, young girls, they would like to speak in English. They don't like to speak in their... At home even, with their father and mother, they're speaking in English. Especially in Bombay, everyone speaks. Not now. I have connection with Bombay since 1927. In 1927 I first went to Bombay. So how many years? Fifty years? I have seen it. They speak in English. They are sending their children where education is given by medium, English. High-class men, they send their children to learn through medium of English. There is Calcutta, St. Julia's College, near our college near our temple.
Satsvarūpa: Hindu College?
Prabhupāda: No. St. Julia's. All Indian students, all very rich man's sons. I sent my sons to English, St. Mary's High School and St. Teresa's school. Learned English very nicely. Scottish Churches College. I was educated in Scottish... All our professors European, Englishmen and Scotsmen.
Satsvarūpa: I think you wrote somewhere that Sanskrit should be the national...
Prabhupāda: That is very difficult. No, I... They wanted to make a national language. There was fight, great fight. Therefore I suggested, "Why not make Sanskrit language?" Everyone will adore.
Prabhupāda: These poor Japanese, in two, three wars they attempted to expand. They are very poor in their land. Practically they have no place, very poor. Only by some technical knowledge they are maintaining. Otherwise they have no food, no shelter. Very poor country. I have studied. The Dai Nippon directors, they are living in a thatched house. And their system is: big company, they supply everything—food, cloth, medicine, children's education, and little salary. So people do not leave the post.
Hari-śauri: Yes. Because their whole life is there.
Prabhupāda: They are not independent. Fully dependent on the employer. So they give poor salary. Dai Nippon has their own hospital, own education, and everything, big industry. And little salary, that's all. So whatever house they allot, they have to accept. And I have seen the director living in a cottage like this almost. So Japanese actually they are poor. Only the capitalists, they have got... Therefore their yen value... You go to purchase—"Two thousand yen." You'll be surprised, "So much paying!" But it has no value. "One million yen." (laughs) In the beginning I... "What is this nonsense? So much?"
Hari-śauri: Our devotees, Gurukṛpā's party, they're talking about they collect a hundred thousand, eighty thousand, but it means, that means...
Prabhupāda: It means few dollars.
Prabhupāda: So very difficult, that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they did it. After that, I have to get from India government saying that Indian government has no objection for me to be in the United States. So I have to get from Central Government, from the Minister of Education, and I have to get one certificate from the passport office in Calcutta, Regional Passport Office. And I have to get one from Manipur Government saying that Manipur Government has no objection for me to be in the United States. And the Manipur Government objected, that they want me back to Manipur. So there was some difficulty at the beginning. So I told them that "No, no, don't say that. Just say that you don't need me." (laughter) So they did it, letter, and I got all those letters. And that letter has to go to Indian Embassy. First of all it has to go to Indian Consulate in San Francisco. And San Francisco has to send a letter of recommendation to Indian Embassy in Washington. And then the Embassy has to send to Federal Government to the Labor Department in Washington, State Department, saying that "Such and such has this letter."
Prabhupāda: So made it very complicated.
Prabhupāda: That is also another foolishness. How much water he'll carry by pipe? (aside:) Where is pole. Take water from God. That is sufficient. Navadit tarims ca.(?) When there is water supplied by God, where there is no need of water there will be water. Just like on the hills, on the mountains, there is no need of water. In the ocean there is no need of water. But the God... "All right, take water here also." That is God's gift. You rascal, how much water you have got that you transport by pipe and this and that...? All rascals. Mūḍha. They can simply address as rascals. That's all. They can simply address as rascals. That's all. That is my language, always these are all rascals. Godless means mūḍha, rascal, duṣkṛtina. They will attempt so many things, simply waste their time and energy. Duṣkṛtina. Because they are rascals. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). And a human being should have intelligence, but they are lower, lowest status of the human being. Mūḍha, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ. "No, the university education..." Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. Everything is analytically spoken. Why all these things? Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Because godless, no intelligence. Anyone who is godless, he has no intelligence. This is the conclusion. They are intelligent amongst the similar rascals. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ (SB 2.3.19). He's intelligentsia among the dogs, among the camels, among the hogs, and the asses. They will praise them, "Oh, you are so intelligent. You are so educated." Not human being. Just like dog receives his master, "Gow, gow, gow, gow." (makes growling sounds) So what is that reception, dog's reception? Similarly, these intelligent men are intelligent amongst a class of men who are compared with dogs, hogs, camel and ass. They are not human being. If some man praises them that "You are so big. You are so big leader," he's also amongst this group. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ. This is grave thing. Let understand it, that anyone who is godless, who has no idea what is God, he is a rascal. Immediately take him that he's a rascal.
Prabhupāda: But they are the topmost devotees. These (chuckling) uneducated, without any town life, cow-men, they are Kṛṣṇa's best friend. Unsophisticated, no education, but love intense—that is perfect. That attracted Kṛṣṇa more. Vṛndāvanaṁ parityajya na padam ekaṁ (sic:) na kartavya... Kṛṣṇa is so much attached to Vṛndāvana that He goes nowhere... What is that? They are not educated girls, up-to-date fashion, (indistinct) or nothing. Crude. As soon as there was blowing of the flute, immediately they began to run towards Kṛṣṇa. Somebody is taking care of children, somebody is engaged in boiling milk, and somebody was even lying down with her husband. Still, immediately... Very crude, unsophisticated, but intense love for Kṛṣṇa—that is Vṛndāvana. We want to introduce this farm project means intense love for Kṛṣṇa. And other things—very simple: little milk, little food grain, little vegetable, that's all. And that is very nice. If you get fresh vegetable, fresh milk, and food grain, what do you want more? And from milk you can prepare so many nice preparations, unlimited number, all very palatable, sweet. This civilization we want to introduce, not so-called rascal civilization and become implicated in this cycle of birth and death. This is not civilization. This is killing civilization. Human being got the opportunity to get out of these clutches of birth and death. They do not understand. They're so rascal, they do not understand how they are implicated in this cycle of birth and death, nor they do take it seriously, that this is the problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). They are so blind rascals, they do not see that this is real suffering. They do not know it. Simply theorizing, making plan, and they do not know what is the suffering. Such a rascal civilization. So we have to introduce real civilization. Therefore we are struggling so hard. So make in such a way. That's a very nice place, center of Europe and very nice place. What is the condition of rainfall?
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, just like that story with the scissors, how can we force the scientists to accept Kṛṣṇa and the Bhagavad-gītā. How can we force the scientists to accept Bhagavad-gītā? The problem seems to be...
Prabhupāda: No, if it is a fact, you can force, if it is a fact. And if it is not fact, then it is obstinacy. If it is reality, you can force, just like the father forces the child, "Go to school." Because he knows without education his life will be frustrated, so he can force. I was forced. I was not going to school. Yes. My mother forced. My father was very lenient. My mother forced me. She kept one man especially to drag me to the school. So force is required.
Gurukṛpā: But that is the authority. Your parents were your authority.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gurukṛpā: But they don't accept us as authority. They say, "I'm equal to you. Actually..."
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness, another foolishness. Father-mother, natural guardian, they can force.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have to show that, the higher understanding...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: But in, say in America, they argue that everybody's educated now. In America...
Prabhupāda: What educated? Educated means hippies. That's all. This is their education. They do not know what is meant by education. Education... University student was informed that "Next birth you may become a dog," so he said, "What is the wrong there?" This is education. Is that education, that he agrees to become a dog very happily? There is no education. Simply waste of time.
Satsvarūpa: But at least if there is extreme exploitation by a king or dictator it can't be changed. But the people...
Prabhupāda: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like kṣatriya should be trained up as kṣatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.
Prabhupāda: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brāhmaṇa, certain section as kṣatriya, certain section as vaiśya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a śūdra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.
Satsvarūpa: Lord Caitanya, when Rāmānanda Rāya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Ihā bāhya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarūpa: But don't we do that also?
Prabhupāda: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally took sannyāsa. He rejected completely material. Niṣkiñcana. But we are not going to be niṣkiñcana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gītā. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected everything, ihā bāhya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bāhya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.
Satsvarūpa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas. There must be regular education.
Hari-śauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as Vaiṣṇavas...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava is not so easy. The varṇāśrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaiṣṇava. It is not so easy to become Vaiṣṇava.
Hari-śauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava, is not so easy. If Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyāsa is for the highest qualified brāhmaṇa. And simply by dressing like a Vaiṣṇava, that is... fall down.
Prabhupāda: So you reply this, that "You come. I shall train you. You will guide. We are prepared to guide you, but it is not possible to, bring men outside to guide you. You come to us. I shall train you how to guide." This is the reply. And that is wanted. This Bon Mahārāja failed. Why? He wanted... Guru Mahārāja wanted that you start one temple in London. But he was thinking of bringing, taking men from India. Actually he had no.... (break) That is the fact. Therefore he failed. Instead of serving Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, he wanted to serve Vivekananda. To become like Vivekananda and "I shall be very much eulogized in my country, second Vivekananda." That was his ambition. He never wished to defy Vivekananda and elevate Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He has introduced in his Oriental Institute, Gandhi philosophy, Vivekananda philosophy. Just see his position. He's appreciating... We are simply condemning Gandhi philosophy, and he's appreciating Gandhi. We are simply depreciating Vivekananda, and he's introducing Vivekananda. This is his position. He cannot understand even that where is philosophy in Vivekananda and Gandhi? Gandhi is nationalist. Again problem with your finger. Twenty-four hours, finger problem or nose problem. That I am observing. No attention. So where is philosophy in Vivekananda or Gandhi? He was nationalist. Nationalist means dehātma-buddhi. Dehātma-buddhi means sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13), cows and asses. He worked throughout his whole life for Indian people. In Africa also, he wasted twenty years, and India, thirty years. Fifty years. He lived for seventy-eight years. So twenty-seven years was for his education or something like that and fifty years wasted. This is his position. And he's a big man. Actually he wasted fifty years. Twenty years in Durban and thirty years in... He started in 1917, and svarāja was, independence was given to India in '47. He had nothing... It is not due to him. It is that Subash Bose's INA. So twenty years there, thirty years-fifty years he wasted of his life. And balance, twenty-seven, education, sex with wife and so on, so on. He was so sexually inclined, he has written in his biography that when his father was dying he was enjoying sex life with his wife. Just see how he was sexually inclined. He could not take the serious illness of his father. He's going to die. He was enjoying his wife. We can... Just from one point we can understand. Everyone is sexual in young days. That is generally. But just see his position, that his father was going to die and he was enjoying sex.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere, all over the world. It will be a revolution from godlessness to understanding of God. That is wanted. Otherwise the whole human society is suffering. Harāv abhaktasya kuto. This advancement of so-called education has no value. It is very risky. They do not know how the nature's law is working. Rascals. They are taking this short duration of life, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43), making big, big plans, forgetting they're completely under the control of nature. A very risky civilization. A living being gets the opportunity to understand all the secrets of nature's path, but he's denied the opportunity. Very dangerous He's thinking like animal. Eating, sleeping, that's all. And big, big educationist and in... Like Professor Kotofsky, he said, "Swamijī, after this body is finished, everything (is finished.)" Just see.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No intelligence. (break)
Prabhupāda: Anyone who has understood the value of Hare Kṛṣṇa, he is saved. But we should not simply keep ourselves saved. We should think for others. That is para-upakāra. And that you cannot do unless you are in the safe position. Janma sārthaka kari'. If you become polluted, then you cannot do. That is the secret. If you are not polluted, then you can do. Otherwise it will be show only, no effect. This is the secret. Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). So, things are very easy, not at all difficult. If you follow, then you can do good to others.
Prabhupāda: And they thought, "Oh, how beneficial the English, British Company. They're giving us so much facility." And English education, they wanted to conduct their office affairs. They required some clerk. They did not want any highly educated. "Work here—ABCD—that's all. 'Yes, no, very good.' Bas." (laughs) So... And as soon as you learn "Yes, no, very good," you get fifty rupees' salary. So they gave up living in... That time fifty rupees is now five thousand. Yes. So they all entered school, English education—"ABCD, yes, no, very good. Bas." And this is British policy. Otherwise India was very happy.
Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Do you want anything tonight?
Prabhupāda: No.
Hari-śauri: Chānā?
Prabhupāda: No. Here is something here.
Hari-śauri: Rasagullā, yes.
Prabhupāda: Etaj jñānam: these are knowledge. This is education. Then?
Pradyumna: Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā.
Prabhupāda: Anything apart from this, they're all rascaldom. Bas. That is again confirmed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Vidyā-madhye kṛṣṇa... What is that?
Satsvarūpa: Kon vidyā vidyā-madhye sāra, rāya kahe-kṛṣṇa-bhakti vinā vidyā nāhi āra.
Prabhupāda: Āra. So these things will be accepted by kṛṣṇa-bhakta, etaj jñānam. So whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, that is knowledge, vidyā. Everything nonsense. Therefore so boldly we say, "All rascaldom." Never mind. That's a fact. That is a fact. Anyone... Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Anyone who is not devotee of Kṛṣṇa, bhagavad-bhakta-useless. Jaḍa-bidyā jato māyāra vaibhava, jībake karaye gādhā. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said. By this so-called material education, one is already gādhā, go-khara, dehātma-buddhi, and he becomes still more, another staunch gādhā. Now, if you speak the straight truth they'll be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi. But this is fact.
Prabhupāda: As other things are giving brain. Just like a dull, a dull child is educated and he passes M.A. examination. He becomes very intelligent person by education. This is their education. Even if you have no brain, I can give you brain. So it is not brainwashing; it is brain-giving. But because you are rascal, you'll not accept.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This will not be very popular with the common people, to be told...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: People will not very much appreciate being told they have no brains.
Prabhupāda: Actually it is that. "No intelligence" you can say.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No intelligence. That'll be...
Ādi-keśava: But we can say that... Their accusation is that one loses identity. They say we are brainwashing, lose our identity.
Prabhupāda: Then you do not know what is your identity.
Ādi-keśava: So they don't know that identity.
Prabhupāda: You are falsely identifying with this body. You do not know. Therefore you have no brain or intelligence.
Prabhupāda: Why he said dhīra, sober, cool-headed? These rascals are cats and dogs. They are not civilized, even big, big professors, they say, "Swami, after finishing this body, everything is finished." Has he got brain? And they're Communist leader. Identifying with this body. This is the actual platform of that body, dehātma-buddhiḥ. And they're described in the śāstra as no better than the asses. So next point will be that where you think beyond your capacity, we begin our education from there, seeing the... Our education begins from that. First of all try to understand what is spirit. Then it will... And our whole process is how to transfer one person from the material platform to the spiritual. Therefore they are thinking "brainwash." The fools, they cannot understand where our education begins. Where they have failed, we begin from there. Where they are disappointed, that "This cannot be answered," so on, we begin from there. So who is intelligent? We are intelligent or they are? We are trying to bring man from this gross misunderstanding, misidentification platform, to come to the spiritual platform. Then he understands what is the spiritual kingdom, the spiritual life that is eternal, blissful. Then he will understand. And that is all new to these dull-headed rascals. And they are thinking... It is the same, different subject matter.
Prabhupāda: That has to be understood, and therefore He's explaining in so many ways. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This one word, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. He cannot understand it. "The body's finished, everything's finished." These rascal professors. And Kṛṣṇa says, na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20), "Don't think it is finished. It is there." Who will understand it? It requires a special brain. These rascals say, "Now everything's finished. The body's finished." But Kṛṣṇa says, "No, no, no. Not finished." Who will understand this, unless he has got a very good brain? And our education begins from that point. These rascals, when they are disappointed—"Bas, finished"—we begin from there. Na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). It is not finished. It is there. Where it is? Dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) he has taken another body. A man is sleeping; he has taken another body. He's jumping on the tree. How we can see? It's a fact. He has forgotten that "I am on a nice bed," and he's somewhere else. How it is? You see that he is sleeping, that he's not working. But he is working. Where is that brain? And it is a fact. I see the man is sleeping, but he has gone somewhere else. That is our daily experience. You cannot see it, where he has gone. He has gone to the jungle. He's seeing there is a tiger and he's crying, "Tiger! Tiger!" You cannot see. So why he's crying? So how can you see his activities? You have no such eyes. You cannot see even how the subtle body is working, and what to speak of the soul. He's dreaming means his subtle body, mind, is working, and therefore, within the mind, he is seeing some tiger and he's crying, "Oh, here is tiger! Save me! Save me! Save me!" And the man in the gross, he cannot see: "Where is tiger?" You cannot see; it does not mean that he does not see. And that is another brainless proposal. "You cannot see." What you can see?
Prabhupāda: That is...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More vigorously.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's it. And the Hyderabad report, that English education, they are inclined. There are so many here. That's not very good idea. As soon as they get English education...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll leave. So we should not encourage that at all. I think it's different than here.
Prabhupāda: No, their attention should be in chanting. And produce their own food, agriculture. And as soon as they get English education, then... Not "as soon as," but not all of them are fit for being educated. It is not possible. They are śūdra class of men. What he will be educated? Śūdra, vaiśya, they should learn how to plow, how to produce food. They are thinking otherwise, that "Plowing is great labor. If we educate our boys in English, they can go to the city. Immediately they get some..."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Get more money, work less."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is not the position, but they're thinking like that. Everyone wants to work less and get more money. That is Marshall's theory of economic impetus. From Germany also there is a bad report.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Germany bad report. Brazil. Not Brazil...
Prabhupāda: Argentina.
Prabhupāda: He's also good gentleman.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You met...
Prabhupāda: Hm. He came to see me.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ādi-keśava's mother is very big in the field of education. Public speaker and intelligent. His father owns a number of industries.
Prabhupāda: You can bring case against them. Just like fight in same position, that brainwashing. Not brainwashing. Whatever they have said.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bring a case against them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Back to back.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes. We're planning to do that. After this case is finally won, then we'll turn around and sue them for damages.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ādi-keśava: ...they can't think that anybody else has anything better.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have to wash the stool. "Yes, it is brainwash." Tell them that. This is the truth actually. "You do not know what is the aim of your life. You are claiming, 'human being.' The dog does not know what is the aim of life. The dog is eating, sleeping, having sex and defense. Your whole education system is based on these four principles. Where is that university which is teaching more than this? You have got technological knowledge. Then what is the purpose? The purpose is how you'll get good bread. That's all, eating. What more? Suppose you have become very good technologist, good title. But what is the aim? You get good salary and eating. That's all, nothing more than that. Or sleeping, good apartment. Or sex, very nice girl." (aside:) Come on. "What else you have got by this education? Nothing... Nowhere it is taught that 'You are eternal. You are suffering in this way.' Where is that education?"
Ādi-keśava: They don't have it.
Prabhupāda: No. "But you do not know. We get this information, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu... (BG 13.9). Eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). Therefore we are trying for that. But you are so dull, in spite of having so many... Therefore the resultant action is you are producing hippies at the end. And how you can be satisfied anymore? They are disgusted with this eating, sleeping, mating business. Now you'll have only hippies." They're disgusted with this system of education, because it is not education at all. This is keeping them in ignorance. "Dog is lying on the street, and a man is lying on the hundred second floor. What is the result? Result is sleeping. Is that improvement? The dog is sleeping very peacefully; you are sleeping-'Oh, there is tiger! Tiger! Tiger! Save me! Save me.' Will that skyscraper building help you in your mental agitation? Is that education? Everyone is taking pill to sleep. You cannot sleep even peacefully, and you are claiming that you are educated." Give this defense. "Here the dog can sleep very peacefully. You cannot sleep even peacefully. This is the resultant action of your so-called education. You are proud of this education, this life, this civilization. You are so brainless, it requires to be washed. Therefore we say it is full of stool. We have come to wash it. That is our thankless duty." What can be done?
Ādi-keśava: And for the parents of these...
Prabhupāda: They... He's also another rascal. Dog's father, dog.
Prabhupāda: That is the difference. "Your brain is so filled with stool that you do not know how much sinful activities you are..., and how much you are becoming entangled in this material body. You are killing the child. You have to become his child again, or you have to become again a child and you will be killed. And then you will enter another mother's body; you'll be again killed. As many child you have killed, you'll have to be killed so many times. You'll never see the light. In the womb, womb, womb, you'll be killed. So your brain is so filled up with stool, you cannot understand. This is your education. This is you education. We are trying to save you, that 'You'll suffer so much. You've made the situation so complicated. Better remain a brahmacārī.' If there is little trouble without sex enjoyment, take it just like itching. Itching trouble, if you don't itch, it will not increase. And if you itch, more and more it will increase.' That is advised. Kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ. One who knows, one who has got brain, 'All right, let me suffer little itching. I'll not itch it.' It will...This is intelligence. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). The suffering from the itching sensation by brahmacārī, that is recommended in our śāstra. Tapasya means voluntarily accepting some trouble. 'So I am feeling itching. I don't itch it. It is little troublesome, little. Never mind, I shall tolerate it.'
Prabhupāda: And the so-called education, they are making devatā demons. We want to check it. The human being, he has got the opportunity. Human being is there to become a devatā. Therefore the Vedic knowledge is there, because he's coming from lower species of life, and they also admit they are coming from monkey. That's all right. But now make him man really. Where is that arrangement? You are keeping him monkey, jumping like monkey. That's all. So your, this so-called educational system, society, is good, or we are making the monkey to become to become devatā, this is good? What they will say? You have come from monkey, and now we are making them devatā. So this is a good process? Or you keep them as monkey, jumping like here and there, that is good? Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is the way to make a monkey to become a demigod, or devatā. This is the Vedic injunction. "Now you should make him, this monkey, person coming from monkey, or a monkey, make him a devatā." And Caitanya Mahāprabhu has simplified: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You become devatā, Bas." What do you want more? Actually that is becoming. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and from monkey you become a devatā, demigod. What do you want, more? Therefore He's mahā-vadānyāvatāra, the most munificent incarnation, making monkey to devatā simply by chanting. See practically. Hm? Anyone protesting against this? (devotees laugh) Here is mother of our Jayapatākā Mahārāja. She is attracted, how the situation is nice. Now she wants to take instruction from her son as mother Devahūti took instructions from her son, Kapiladeva.
Prabhupāda: Pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). Everything is complete by the arrangement of Kṛṣṇa. Simply we mismanage. That's all. I do not know why people are engaged with politics, fighting, and so on, so on. By Kṛṣṇa's grace everything is complete. You eat sufficiently, you be strong and keep your health good and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the arrangement. These rascals, they have created civilization, simply animosity-fighting, politics. This is Kali-yuga. Kali means simply unnecessarily fights. There is no need of fighting, but they'll create a situation, fighting. That's all. This is Kali-yuga, unnecessarily. Why politics? Why so much discussion, barking in the United Nations? Kṛṣṇa has given the formula. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). In America, Australia, Africa, they can produce so much grain that ten times of the population as it is now can be maintained. Similarly, Australia can produce ghee. So by Kṛṣṇa's arrangement everything is all right, the economic problem. Why they create this situation and occasionally fight and finish the whole...? Such a rubbish civilization, rākṣasa, unnecessarily increasing military power and spending all the revenues. Russia spends sixty-five percent-unnecessarily. And still starving. So this is mūḍha, duṣkṛtina. Duṣkṛtina, only engaged in sinful activities, duṣkṛtina, and rascals, mūḍha, narādhama. He got the opportunity of this human life, and it misusing unnecessarily-narādhama. And their university education-māyayāpahṛta, useless knowledge, useless. Apahṛta-jñāna. Actually they have no knowledge. Why? The only fault is there is no God. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15). So one... That is the basic fault. Everyone is trying: "There is no God. Science." This is the basic principle. So the whole human society is suffering on account of these fools and rascals. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is para-upakāra, how to bring them in peaceful condition, in normal mental condition, and make this life successful by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: And therefore I say that education has been so wrongly given that they are restless like animals due to the modern civilization. The beginning of spiritual education they cannot accept. What they will make, further progress of spiritual life? Beginning, ABCD, they are so restless, they cannot take. This is the position. Therefore I'm speaking that it is meant for the dhīra, for the rājarṣi. Not for the men who are like animals. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Their bodily conception is so strong that they cannot hear even what is said. They are so dull. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyāḥ (SB 1.1.10).
Brahmānanda: It seems now that it's the people from the West who want to hear. Why is that?
Prabhupāda: Now, because they have now experience of the bodily comforts, and they have seen it that "Simply by bodily comfort we cannot be happy." They have come to this stage.
Prabhupāda: Subdued. So then there is no chance. Kancai no wale basa mas korbe tas tas:(?) "If you want to bend this bamboo, when it is green, you can do it. And if it is yellow, can't. It will break." Tas, tas. This is Bengali. If you take one yellow bamboo, to bend it, it will crack and make sound, "Tas, tas." But when it is green, you can bend it. Kancai no wale paca means green. (Bengali) Kancai no wale basa mas korbe tas tas.(?) First human civilization begins when you restrain the children not to become restless. This is the training. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dānto guror hitam. This training is lacking. Therefore even in old age, the washerman business. I am bodily conscious, and I am training others also to become bodily conscious: "You feel like Indian," "You feel like American," "You feel like Englishman." This is education, the same dehātma-buddhi, that "I am this body," extended. The extended feeling of bodily consciousness, is that advancement? Is that advancement? The bodily consciousness is animalism. (aside:) Why you are taking? Huh? No, no. You keep it.
Prabhupāda: So we shall take it. This is Vedic civilization, that train the children how to become restrained, subdued, from the very beginning. Then he will take other education.
Brahmānanda: But what is the process for subduing?
Prabhupāda: That he should act simply for the benefit of the guru. This is the process. He has no personal interest. He'll go by the order of guru to beg alms from different householders and... They are innocent children. They'll go, ask, "Mother, give me some alms." And the mother also knows that "My child or his child, they are all neighbors' child. They will give." And whatever collection is there, he'll bring it to guru. So he does not claim that "I have collected. It is my property." No. It is guru's property. This is the first training. He works so hard to collect, but the property belongs to the guru. Guror hitam. This is first training. And that is the meaning of karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. That gentleman was quoting this. He does not know what is the meaning. He... Karmaṇy e... He is engaged to work, to collect. Just like you are doing that. You are, whole day you are working for the selling books, but you don't make a farthing even out of the profit. That is for the guror hitam, for the benefit of guru.
Prabhupāda: Ha.
Hṛdayānanda: All his mistakes.
Gargamuni: Who spoke? What man?
Hṛdayānanda: The education minister.
Hari-śauri: Mr. Bannerjee. He was talking about Vivekananda and how our movement is spreading because of our moral strength.
Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda answered each of his points.
Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda said afterwards that he smashed him. (laughter)
Yaśomatī-nandana(?): One is Vivekananda. Another is Gandhi.
Prabhupāda: They have spoiled India's culture. All these... Rabindranath Tagore. All misleaders. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the real leader, and Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: In so many ways Kṛṣṇa is trying to convince that living soul is different, completely different from matter. Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam: "It cannot be cut into pieces. It cannot be burned. It cannot be moistened. It cannot be dried up." In so many ways... "It does not take birth. It does not die. It is not finished after the body is finished." This is the greatest ignorance. And if they want to keep people in ignorance, that is not good business. In the name of education, cheating people. Why there should be education? What is the benefit?
Girirāja: Well, this gives excuse for unrestricted sense gratification, although actually there's no benefit in that. It just makes people more unhappy.
Prabhupāda: Without scientific knowledge the animals are also gratifying their senses. Why they take to the platform of education for sense gratification? What can be benefit? It doesn't require... Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. Even the birds and beasts, they have got facilities for sense gratification. The pig, they have got very good facility for sense gratification—no distinction between mother, sister, or anyone. The pig has got greater facility. So why in the name of education?
Gargamuni: Agriculture minister.
Prabhupāda: Not only here, but everywhere. The farm project is sound project. So what other things?
Satsvarūpa: There's quite a list of resolutions, yesterday's and today's. Beginning yesterday morning: We finished the last assignments of GBC men, that Jagadīśa will continue as the education minister and that Svarūpa Dāmodara will execute his GBC duties in connection with the Bhaktivedanta Institute, Eastern headquarters in Bombay, Western headquarters Washington, D.C., with Rūpānuga.
Prabhupāda: And Boston also? No.
Satsvarūpa: No. Today also with new preaching centers, Svarūpa Dāmodara was assigned the development of Manipur.
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava state. Do you like this idea?
Rāmeśvara: Svarūpa, do you like the idea?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Suppose I am a very big business magnate. Next life, if I am going to become a dog—according to my karma, the nature's law will act—then what is benefit? One day before, Indira Gandhi was so important. Next day I'll maybe(?) nowhere, finished. Nobody knows where is Indira Gandhi. Just twenty-four hours she was most prominent woman. And after twenty-four hours nobody cares to look at her. This nature's law, how you can check? This is going on. Any moment, anything can be changed by the laws of nature. So India's importance is there. They know the law. Therefore so long the body, full of intelligence, human body, is there, they'll utilize it very... That is life, not to be carried away by the waves of nature. This is India's duty. So we want to make our institution at least a place for understanding this knowledge. It doesn't matter only a few persons may understand. That is sufficient. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ sahasraśaḥ: "If you keep one moon in the sky, that is sufficient for light. What is the use of millions of stars?" Modern education, they are creating twinkling stars, millions. All useless for light. No light. And our Vedic civilization is: "Create one moon. That's all." That is sufficient. We respect, therefore, ācāryas. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, not the so-called voted leaders. We don't care for them. What is their value? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). You say, "Oh, they are being liked, eulogized, by so many hundreds and thousands," but what these hundreds and thousands of people are? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara. They're kept in ignorance like dogs, hogs, camels and asses. This propaganda should go on by the ISKCON movement. Bombay is the nicest place. Invite them. Convince them. We have got answers for everyone, however big scientist, big philosopher, big politician. Bhāgavata has answered everyone. How selected animals' name has been given. This is Bhāgavata. How the comparison is perfect. I have tried to explain why a particular animal has been selected.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Why India's such big culture should be lost for the matter of these rascal leaders? This should be stopped. As Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma (BG 4.13). There must be ideal brāhmaṇa, ideal kṣatriya, ideal vaiśya, as Kṛṣṇa says. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is all-inclusive. Economic question? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Grow food. Practical. Just like when I was going to the pandals, millions of clerks were coming—"Education. Educated." And who is growing food? And they have to be provided in these pigeon holes and depend on ration. Is that civilization? And throngs of people are coming, just like machine, ants. Ants are coming. I saw like that. And go to the village side—all vacant land. Nobody's interested to produce food. Everyone is interested to live within the city, in these pigeonholes, and go to the cinema and go to the brothel, go to the club and learn how to drink, how to become gentleman. Is that civilization? Human life's aim is lost. You do not know why you are going to the office, why you are eating, why you are... Keeping them all pet animal's mentality, doggish mentality. We have explained. University education means doggish mentality. Unless he becomes a dog, there is no food. No, the dog goes...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wagging it's tail.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Coming in Churchgate.
Prabhupāda: No, there was a newspaper publication. For some post there is five hundred posts vacant.
Guest (1): Oh, yes. For application for a job, five jobs and five thousand people applied.
Prabhupāda: Five thousand. Is that education? Better not to be educated. Those who are not educated, they purchase ten rupees' worth of potato and sit down anywhere and half... (laughter) Five rupees. Yes.
Guest (1): All vegetable are...
Prabhupāda: You take some dāl. Go to house to house, dāl. They have no scarcity. And after spending so much money, living at the cost of fathers, mothers—unemployed. No job. No food. Then plan something, Naxalite, this party, that party. Join some political movement and help Indira Gandhi. They are paid to make propaganda. They are paid. And they earn money by smuggling.
Guest (1): But that all has vanished now. That plan has failed now completely.
Prabhupāda: Not failed. Another man will come. Because the unemployment is there. Practically, when we were boys, children, we were purchasing mustard oil, eight annas for two-half, two-half only, kilo, first-class. In Calcutta, Kanpur mustard oil. So my father would give me eight annas. I shall go to the shop and purchase. Now that quality, even taking it..., he's now selling thirteen rupees per kilo. Will the change of government bring this thirteen rupees to three annas? Then what is the benefit? The same stool, this side or that side. People are not going to get any relief by this change of government. So we are not concerned about thirteen rupees or three annas or... Some way or other, people are getting their things. That's all right. But the real loss is to remain in animal mentality and forget the aim of life. That is the real loss.
Prabhupāda: Make them come, make them come. Treat them nicely. Give them good place. In this way increase the number of workers. Then people will, "Oh... They are not religious sentiments. They have got books, they have got scientists, they have got doctors." Is it not? And we can challenge them. "Come on, what is our education, let us test. We are prepared to talk with you like scientists." So you are all here now and... Organize in Bombay. Bombay, the center of Bhaktivedanta Institute.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: A few students came day before yesterday from Bombay University.
Prabhupāda: Let them come.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They wanted to study in Bhaktivedanta Institute.
Prabhupāda: Very good. Give them good place. We don't want tenants or... Turn the whole building into Bhaktivedanta Institute. And another building start. Yes. We have got enough place. I want that the intelligent man should come and learn this science. That is wanted.
Prabhupāda: ...little education. In the Bengali, it is called rural relationship.(?)
Lokanātha: Prasādam distribution could be very successful.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, generally visitors will not come up here, right? Because now that Girirāja is here, if you can explain to him what, you know, the policy should be.
Prabhupāda: You explain.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said that he will go once a week to the darśana.
Prabhupāda: No, I shall go daily in the morning. At seven. And I'll stay there half an hour or more than half an hour.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Guru-pūjā.
Prabhupāda: Those who are visitors, they can see me. And for lecturing, on Sunday I shall lecture. You can fix up time, which time. But Sunday I shall speak from Bhāgavatam. This is general program. And if it is required some special, that is another thing. So what is the use of inviting visitors here?
Girirāja: I agree with that policy.
Prabhupāda: Some contribution.
Dr. Sharma: Contribution. And there was a real rich life in Indian village. Now, after independence, that life has been really destroyed. Because the grants have been taken away and here, it's really a pain to see such beautiful temples having no maintenance now. Plus this so-called secular education, you know godless education they have introduced, that has further harmed, because the temple-going public has also dwindled in number. And it looks like there has been a systematic plan to undermine our...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, by this Congress. Their opinion is that India is too much religious; they spoiled.
Dr. Sharma: Yes. Also I just happened to do a survey in South about the party brāhmaṇas who were having the...
Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas, they, from your Rajasthan, the other day, I got before. Twenty thousand brāhmaṇas have come here in Bombay to serve as tea-walla.
Dr. Sharma: Tea-walla. That is correct.
Prabhupāda: So who is caring for the... Because there is no maintenance, there is no education, so how the brāhmaṇas are being maintained?
Dr. Sharma: These, the Rajasthani brāhmaṇas were not that, you know, strong brāhmaṇas as you see in south. In the south the brāhmaṇas are very Vaiṣṇavas, very staunch, and they were veda-paṭhīs. They had the whole aural...
Prabhupāda: No. Veda... Because the brāhmaṇas, they should be veda-paṭhī, at the same time, the public also must know the importance of Vedas. So if you prepare the public that it is useless, then how these brāhmaṇas can be maintained?
Prabhupāda: You have got that stage, so you should invite all scholarly people, every Sunday, Saturday, hold meeting, challenge them. In this way. Kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam.
- idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā
- sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ
- avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito
- yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam
- (SB 1.5.22)
Avicyutaḥ artha. It is the infallible conclusion that your education should be perfected when you can prove through your educational talents that there is God. Then it is... Avicyutaḥ artha. Avicyutaḥ means there is no fallacy—infallible. So that we have to do. Any other scientists joined from India?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: India, not yet.
Prabhupāda: What is their opinion? They are afraid of joining?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will come. Some of them are very favorable.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is one doctor who lives on our land. He wants to work with them in proving that God exists. He has his M.V.B. from Russia.
Prabhupāda: Russia is also purchasing our books. If the scientists do not believe in God, what is the reason?
Dr. Sharma: They just want a valid proof.
Mr. Koshi: They are all nationalities?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone. Any scientific man, any advanced in education...
Mr. Koshi: Have you put any conditions?
Prabhupāda: No conditions. You try to understand. Within this body the active principle is there. Where is condition? You try to understand if you have knowledge.
Mr. Koshi: But a renunciation of something?
Prabhupāda: Again why you are coming to renunciation? First of all come to the knowledge. First of all accept that within this body there is the active principle. Then whether it is required renunciation, no renunciation, that we shall discuss later on. First of all, we have to understand, as Kṛṣṇa says in the very beginning, that asmin dehe dehī. Within this body, there is the owner of the body. First of all try to understand. He is speaking on that subject matter. Dehī. Not on the deha. People should understand first of all this science. Then talk of other things. When we say "Two plus two equal to four," no scholar will deny it. "Yes, it is four." Nobody, no rascal will say, "No, it is five or three." Nobody will disagree, if it is science, if it is mathematics. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says within this body, the owner of the body. Who will deny it? Let them accept it. Then we shall discuss what is that owner, what is the nature of that owner. First of all let them accept it. They are accepting the machine as everything.
rabhupāda: Huh? Because they are so poor that they cannot purchase diamond. But diamond must be there. They are so poor-hearted, their education has been so poorly given that they cannot understand.
Mr. Koshi: Poorly given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That "You are this body, jump like cats and dogs," that's all. What is nationalism? This is, that "You are this body. Jump like cats and dogs." A group, as a group of crows gather together, caw caw caw caw. That has been taught. Make group and crow.
Mr. Koshi: Something is wrong.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You don't find this word "nationalism" in the Bhagavad-gītā. You don't find it. Can you find out this word? These are all borrowed words.
Mr. Koshi: And what is your alternative?
Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? We are preaching internationalism, everyone welcome. Come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is being done. Real United Nations. Here is Christian, here is Jew, here is African, here is Muhammadan, everything. Worldwide. That is real United Nations. They have no conception. If they would thought that "I am American," then why he is after a poor Indian man? Indians are known outside India as poverty-stricken, and that's a fact. So why he should come to the person born of poverty-stricken nation? But actually we are not poverty-stricken. If we cultivate our own standard of knowledge, Bhagavad-gītā, then we are the richest and we can give the whole world the gift. That should be... And they will welcome. That will be glorified if they accept. Just see. This is our... I am trying for that.
Prabhupāda: ...community. If the one community said, "Within our religion, there is no need of education..."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of education?
Prabhupāda: So will the state allow that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they shouldn't, because then it is not religion. Genuine...
Prabhupāda: No, no, it is religion or no religion. Suppose there is university, and if some religious sect says that "In our religion we shall not take university education."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We shall not take any education from the university?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So will the government accept?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In United States there is a group in Pennsylvania, and they say that they will not undergo any kind of normal education, because it is polluted, and they have their own education, and they are permitted. Even from six, seven years old, from first grade. They are called the Amish people. (some noise in background) That's not a door, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's heavy dropping of heavy items.
Prabhupāda: Another point, in secular, the scientific knowledge, two plus two equal to four. If somebody says, "No, in our opinion it is five," will it be accepted?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I didn't hear what you were saying.
Prabhupāda: If two plus two equal to four. If somebody says "In our opinion it should be five..."
Prabhupāda: No.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First you have to be qualified.
Prabhupāda: This is no plea, that there is checking: because he is born in a low-grade family, there is no educational facilities. "You cannot do it," say that, "for want of culture."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So then they quote Dr. Ambedekhar saying, "We will attain self-elevation only if we learn self-help, regain self-respect, and gain self-knowledge." But what is the self, they don't know.
Prabhupāda: That we can teach.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said, "The surest way for our salvation lies in higher education."
Prabhupāda: So who forbids? Is there any restriction that... (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "Here are some measures to be implemented. The caste system should be abolished." They are always trying to abolish the caste system.
Prabhupāda: The caste system... Where is the hindrance in the caste system? If you want to become a brāhmaṇa, you can become a brāhmaṇa. Why it should be abolished?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Incorrect understanding of it should be abolished.
Prabhupāda: "This is the definition of becoming a brāhmaṇa." Give this.
abhupāda: She has misused the power, and nobody was to check. It is very dangerous constitution.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (reading:) "Educated people lack basic values. The question whether formal education has a corrupting influence on the minds of children, particularly the illiterate tribals and villagers, was raised by Dr. D. Y. Goharkar, vice chancellor of Nagpur University at the three-day conference of the third Vidarbha Teachers Educators' Meet, which concluded here last week in Candrapur. Inaugurating the conference, Dr. Goharkar observed that some of the basic values of life such as honesty and trustworthiness were conspicuously lacking in the so-called educated communities in general. He urged educationists and researchers to look into this question and suggest remedies."
Prabhupāda: That means the rascals, they do not see it, that godlessness, godless education will be like that. The teachers who are suggesting, they are themselves blind, and they are leading. They do not know what is the defect. You can write to them, that "You are leaders, you do not know what is the cause. This is the cause. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). Without God consciousness, there cannot be any education. There cannot be any good qualities. You do not know this. Simply you are crying in the wilderness. You yourself do not know. All the education, its propaganda is how to make the world godless, although the most scientific knowledge of God is there in the Bhagavad-gītā." Write him. Give him a slap, that "You do not know." Introduce our Kṛṣṇa consciousness books in the educational department. "Yato mata tato patha. Transcendental meditation. God has given you senses. Why you should not enjoy?" This is his...
Prabhupāda: Simply fighting. They are not peaceful. That's all. Where is peace? You'll be surprised. During gas scarcity the gas was being supplied in Honolulu. This was in our presence. So the gas supply, whatever they had, distributed, and they had one sign board, "No more gas." So next man was so angry that he shot him dead. Just see. He had no more gas; he cannot supply. He became so much infuriated that he shot him dead. This is the result of this modern motorcar civilization. He thought that "Gas will not be supplied. Then I am gone. I am finished. So kill this man." This is education. (Hindi) Provided we train at least some ideal men, everything can be done. Everything is there. There is no scarcity of knowledge in India. We have to simply take it and practically apply it, bas. (Hindi) We are not sentimental (laughs) religious group. Everything practical. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not like that, sentiment. Everything scientific, practical, for the good of the whole human society. Therefore I require that this must be pushed on for the whole human society, and naturally India also. (aside:) The prasādam arrangement is...? You give each item, one each... No, no, give me, give me, give... This is... Each item, you give one. I have got this ambition that Indian culture should be spread, and otherwise what can I do wherever...?
Mr. Rajda: And you have already done lot of great, noble work.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they say at least.
Yadubara: Do you think there should be any sequel to this film? In other words, to carry on the philosophy?
Prabhupāda: No, you have given the evolution of from fish to plant, plant to insect, bird, animal. That can be little elaborately, evolution. Then human being, full consciousness. Now, this is the chance for understanding God. And if they are still kept in darkness like the animals, that's a dangerous civilization. Refusing the opportunity to the humanity. By knowing this, you can get out of this continual evolutionary process. That is anti-material world, Vaikuṇṭha world, where you can actually live. Na jāyate na mriyate vā. He does not take birth, neither dies, and dances with Kṛṣṇa. That is life. That we are wanting. We are seeking after. It is not possible here. Here you have to go through the evolutionary process again and again if you don't take the opportunity for going back to home, back to... Then it is your misfortune. So this civilization keeping people in their unfortunate condition. Mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). This is opportunity to understand God and go back to Him, but that opportunity is being refused. Therefore he is returning again to the same position of birth and death. From animal to man, from man to..., up and down. But dehāntara, that is very dangerous. Tathā dehāntara, you have to change your body. Stop this. If you are scientist, stop it. Continue as American forever. Why you cannot? Why you are so proud of your so-called scientific education? Then you are under control. You have constructed this skyscraper building. Live here forever. Why don't you live? Kicked out. In the same house can become a cockroach because you have got attachment. "All right. Live here as cockroach." Who can check it? Cockroach is also life. Dehāntara. The proprietor becomes cockroach. Can you check it? Nature will do. Now we are proprietor, next life a cockroach. "Live here in your skyscraper building." How much valuable time he has wasted by constructing this skyscraper building. He remains there in the photograph, and actually his life is in the commode. Cockroach. He is living in the commode, and his son's worshiping his photograph. This is... This is called ignorance. Very misleading civilization this is. So we are trying to save everyone from this misleading civilization. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Prabhupāda: ...shell, and again covered with fiber.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Husk.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So these people are interested with the fiber, not with the pulp. So all discoveries of the modern education, they are ksoprai kanana(?).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That fiber is the least valuable part.
Prabhupāda: But they are discovering(?).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He gives a summary of this chapter. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...objectionable.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Objectionable? I haven't read it yet.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He advertised himself, he is only (indistinct).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Surabhī.
Prabhupāda: Hm. And neither he has mentioned his guru's name nor others' name, as if he is doing everything. His ambition is only... Yes. Not a single place, any other swamiji or swami, as if he is, it is his idea and he will supply money and everything, like that. And without any sanction of a committee he has come to pay whimsically. So everything will be done like that. There are so many mistakes. You read it. Here. Similarly, everything is being done, it is Surabhī Mahārāja. Have you read already?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: One lady lives in Vṛndāvana...
Mr. Dwivedi: He has written books also on tantra-śāstra. And I understand most of these ministers, they were going to seek his blessings. I did not know to whom he gave his blessings, but what I know is that most of these people were going to him. I only... One day I asked him. He's very kind towards me, so I go to him and dine with him. So I told him one day, I said, "Mahārāja, you speak to mahatlal (?) people to give some money to our institution." He said, "Mr. Dwivedi, I do not ask any friends or anybody to do anything for me or to anybody." So then I said, "Mahārāja, then I put one question to you if you permit me." He said, "All right, I permit you." So I asked, "Vivekananda has said that 'Service of God... Service of humanity is service of God.' Do you think it is correct or it is incorrect?" He said, "This is correct." Then I said, "We are running educational institution. Whatever good or bad, leave that aside. But in our own little small way we are rendering little service to humanity. And..."
Prabhupāda: But I may interfere. The... In the Bhagavad-gītā is there such statement, that "Service to humanity is service to God"? Is there any statement?
Mr. Dwivedi: Daridrāṇāṁ bhara kaunteya... (?) I think there is somewhere...
Prabhupāda: There is no.
Mr. Dwivedi: But this particular I remember, daridrāṇāṁ bhara kaunteya...
Prabhupāda: This is... This is wrong theory. Don't maintain this. This is a very wrong theory. Just like "Service to the leaves is service to the root." Is it not wrong? What do you think? Like a tree, so where the service should be given, to the root or to the leaf?
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Get light on that. (Hindi) There was how many applications for five hundred posts?
Kārttikeya: These fifty application... Fifty posts and five thousand applications, twenty-five thousand applications.
Prabhupāda: No, no. There were some thousands applications. In education. (Hindi)
Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Then śūdra-karma. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (Hindi) So strictly if you follow Bhagavad-gītā as it is, oh, then there will be heaven, everything. (Hindi) Kitna time waste... (Hindi) Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). (Hindi) ...simple life... (Hindi)
Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) This I've seen that in our day it has been found first-class antiseptic. (Hindi) Particularly when we have got typhus and that sort of sicknesses in the home, it is the ground gobar that the house is cleaned and...
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This is very dangerous civilization. If you want to save them from this dangerous civilization, you must push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise there is no other way. (Hindi) Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dhīra. (Hindi) Yato mata tato patha. (Hindi) Secular state. (Hindi) (break) (Hindi) Prāyaścitta-vimarṣaṇam. (Hindi) Do you think they'll do?
Mr. Dwivedi: No, I don't.
Prabhupāda: ...clean, cook, to be faithful to the husband.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't require a big school.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is mistake. They should be taught how to become obedient to the husband.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, you won't learn that in school.
Prabhupāda: Little education, they can...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. That they can get at home also.
Prabhupāda: They should be stopped, this practice of prostitution. This is a very bad system in Europe and America. The boys and girls, they are educated-coeducation. From the very beginning of their life they become prostitutes. And they encourage.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah.
Prabhupāda: They distribute pills. I have seen the boys and girls dancing together, embracing, in the school film. That ruins the career. Both of them are ruined. That is very regrettable. Then you shall require this sterilization, pills, another big program. They are creating animal civilization, and when the animals are disturbing, they are trying to find out some other means. This is their program. First of all create animals. Then, when the animals behave like animals, then another program. Why do you create animal? Woman brahmacāriṇī, this is artificial.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The butter should be kept cool.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In a cool refrigerator, cool-headed. As soon as come in contact with the fire, agitate. The example is given. In Indian... Up to our time restriction was very strict. Now it is slackened.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now you see boys and girls freely mixing here, in India.
Prabhupāda: Without coeducation there is no college.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In American universities they have co-living. The bathrooms are the same bathroom now. They don't even have men's bathroom and women's toilet.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's considered advancement, to come to the point of being animals here.
Prabhupāda: So our gurukula should be ideal. Not all these boys... You should take care of these things from the very beginning—if you want actually spiritual life. If you want to progress like animals, that is different thing, as the whole world is doing. We want to maintain an ideal institution. People may see. In Christian idea also, the nuns were separate.
Prabhupāda: I don't speak especially of Gandhi, but there are so many. Everyone takes Bhagavad-gītā and misinterprets in his way. Why? Boliye. Why they should misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā? What right they have got?
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) So paramparā, in the paramparā system, the system remains in order. And that is our way of life. Our... We are in India. These men have come newly under Western education, but we have got paramparā system, just like Rāmānuja's paramparā, Madhvācārya's paramparā, Viṣṇu Svāmī-paramparā. Still there is, Śrī-sampradāya, Madhva-sampradāya, Viṣṇu Svāmī...
Indian man (1): Disciplic succession.
Prabhupāda: Succession, yes. So Kṛṣṇa says that the real truth is in the paramparā system. You cannot take anything and misinterpret. Then it is lost. Suppose from the very beginning of my life I have been taught by my father that this is called dictaphone. Now, if I misinterpret in a different way, then it is lost. "Call a spade a spade." And Kṛṣṇa very distinctly said that "Because that paramparā system is now lost, I am again speaking to you." Purātana. Find out this word, purātana. Mayā te 'dya yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. Why He is speaking purātana, not new definition? Boliye.
Prabhupāda: So we are talking of who requires a guru. Guru is not a fashion. (loud yelling outside) Hm? What is that?
Indian man (2): Shouting by some people.
Indian man (1): I think all the educational institutions are closed for summer vacation. Therefore many students and these people may have come, and they this cause, or something like that. I'm not sure, but that is what I guess.
Prabhupāda: They have also manufactured. (laughter) This is going on. So Vedic injunction is tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Guru is required to understand tad-vijñānam, transcendental science, not for any material understanding. Material understanding, there are so many chemists, (sic:) physists and many other department of... When we speak of guru, it means beyond this material world. For that purpose we require guru. So... Just like now it is being very much advertised that "You execute meditation. Your mind will be strong. Your health will be strong." That means from material point. But keeping your health strong, the medical science is there and so many other thing. But people are taking advantage of this yoga system. The śāstra says that dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). He is yogi who is meditating and mind is fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise it is material. Material things does not require... Maybe a gymnastic, muṣṭika.
Prabhupāda: We have no other business. We want to see people live, eating very nicely nutritious food, keeping good health. But unnecessarily artificial things, bothering, that we don't want. Keep your health very nice, live for as many years as possible, and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, next life, you go back to home, back to Godhead, permanent life. Yad gatvā na nivartante (BG 15.6). This we want to give. There is no cheating. There is no politics, no personal ambition fulfilling. This is our mission. Try to convince them. There is not a little tinge of personal sense gratification. This is our... Now can you point out, any one of them, that "Here is the point, the personal sense gratification"? We are talking amongst ourselves, so if there is any flaw, you can point out. Can anyone? That "Here is the point, personal sense gratification"? There is no such things in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tāṅdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās. Our only ambition is we live among devotees and execute the mission of our predecessors, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Kṛṣṇa. This is our ambition.
- tāṅdera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās
- janame janame hoy ei abhilāṣ
We have got ambition, but this is our ambition, that live with devotees and execute the mission of our predecessor. This is our aim. Without ambition nobody can live. Self-interest, ambition, is everywhere. But self-interest is to execute the Kṛṣṇa's desire. That they do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). That they do not know. So you are Americans, and they are responding. You are responding means Americans responding. So do very carefully, and if one fourth of America becomes Vaiṣṇava, the whole world will change. They are the leading nation. Kṛṣṇa has given them all facility—good land, good intelligence, good education, good facilities, good prestige. Is it not? They are fortunate. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī (SB 1.8.26). Everything is there. Take this opportunity. This is our ambition. I went to America with this ambition, that "If the American people will take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness..." That is coming to be fulfilled. Now the Indians resident of America, they are also taking.
Prabhupāda: You haven't got to think over, "What shall I do now?" Never forget. So our first business is preaching. You should always remember. This is the education. These rascals, they have no father-mother-orphans. They may think as well-educated how to earn money. We have no... We are rich man's son. Economic problem is already solved. That is already taken. Tal labhyate yad anyataḥ sukham. We don't care for all this so-called improvement. That is already settled up. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ. Just see how to become a man of character like Nārada, Vyāsa. That is our goal. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ. Not for any other. "And what about your material problems?" That is already taken. Tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ kālena sarvatra gabhīra-raṁhasā. This is kṛṣṇa-bhakta. Don't care for maintaining body. "What Kṛṣṇa will give, I take. If He does not give, don't mind." So discussing all this twenty-four hours and death takes place. Death, if takes place, then where is the wrong? Where is the lamentation? There is nothing... You are not permanent. You have to die. But if you die discussing all these things, that is your glorious death. Death is sure. You cannot avoid it, today or tomorrow or hundred years after. But die a glorious death. Yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). That is wanted. It is not... So I have called you for that purpose. So if death is to take place, let me die in your association and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no harm. That is glorious. Now it is very important point, Nārada's qualification.
Prabhupāda: Morning, evening.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Morning and the evening. And I'd like to have six chief guests. All, they will be scientists from Delhi and surrounding areas, some well-known scientists. And also I'm thinking of inviting a few political...
Prabhupāda: Leaders.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Leaders. Governor of the state and Educational Minister. Dr. Sharma told me that he can arrange those things easily.
Prabhupāda: So do that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Dr. Sharma is very helpful, and he's very interested in this idea.
Prabhupāda: You are doing nicely. Kṛṣṇa will help. (pause)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I wanted to ask Śrīla Prabhupāda... Yesterday I was asking about that title, that "Bhaktivedanta Vijñāna Conference." That doesn't seem to be attractive. It's not...
Prabhupāda: No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So Your Divine Grace has some suggestion?
Prabhupāda: Why not stress that life comes from life, not otherwise?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that will be the theme: life comes from life. Just like "Scientific Conference on Life Comes From Life"?
Prabhupāda: That will be very nice.
Prabhupāda: You are God—limited. Limited God. You cannot maintain. Therefore you are limited. You can become God within your family, within your office, within your kingdom. You are not Supreme God. To a limited extent you are God. Because you have got the quality of God, so according to your capacity, within limited jurisdiction, you may be God. So dictionary is there. Vedic assertion is there. Logic is there. Science is there. Prove. Then your education will be successful. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. When you can prove this, then the meaning of your education will become... Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22). To glorify the exalted position of God, that is... Is it clear?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). That is Kṛṣṇa. That Supreme Being is Kṛṣṇa.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The origin of life is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). From Brahmā we have come. And Brahmā is generated from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. So let them come forward and discuss. So we have to prove to the world that it is not brainwashing. It is real knowledge. Why you should keep it suppressed and leave the people in ignorance? It is not your duty to bluff and cheat. That is not science. You are cheating people and getting Nobel Prize. That we have to..., in a large scale.
Prabhupāda: Very good. Their false propaganda... (pause) (break) Scientists, they should seriously charge for the prestige of their Vedic knowledge. "Yes, my... Yes, sir, you are stating." What is this nonsense? "You are creating some rascals? Yes, my lord." In the name of education.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I made an advertisement in M.I.T. saying that... Korana is the man who synthesized this gene... They thought that might life. So I was putting in an M.I.T. newspaper in the campus, saying that "Korana's gene is not life, and virus is not life. These are all molecules. They have nothing to do with life." So we have a lecture coming up next month, July 10th, in the M.I.T. campus, so three of us are going to speak on life coming from life. Because this is an M.I.T. campus, so there'll be many people from his group coming, because it is directly challenging the biggest group in the United States about this...
Prabhupāda: So do they accept?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, and some Indians are on our side, specially this Indian Student's Association, and also there is an association called Indian Association for Greater Boston. The president and the secretary came to me, and they are supporting us.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Prabhupāda: He cannot have. He is a sentimentalist. He has no clear idea. Neither it is possible for him.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We'd like to know this very clearly and see things properly.
Prabhupāda: Nowadays scientific education, the students in the school...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Once it is convinced, then it is convinced forever, on a scientific level.
Prabhupāda: Then there will be question, "If the life is eternal, then whatever we have wrongly taken as life, temporary, that is only waste of thought(?)."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. That is a corollary. The whole educational system has to be changed.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everything they thought, this chemistry and physics, it's going to be all wrong.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they have no alternative.
Prabhupāda: And that is spiritual knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That is yes. A rascal can become intelligent man. That's good. But without becoming intelligent, remaining rascal, they are living. Otherwise there is no hindrance. I may be rascal, but in future, I may be intelligent by education, by... That is not checked. But the difficulty is that he remains a rascal and claims to be intelligent. That is the difficulty. That is the difficulty. We don't say that "Because you are rascal, you shall continue to remain a rascal." No. You become intelligent. Take advantage of intelligent person. But you remain a rascal and claim to be intelligent, and that is... They are doing. Little learning is dangerous. We say that don't remain rascal. Tamaso mā: "Don't remain in darkness." We say; we are canvassing. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose, that "You are rascal, but don't remain a rascal. Come to the light." Tamaso mā jyotir gama. That is our business. But this rascal, he'll remain in rascaldom, and he will claim that "I am not." That is the difficulty. Take enlightenment. Bhāgavata is there. Bhagavad-gītā is there. And become intelligent. But don't claim to be intelligent while you are on the rascal platform. That is not good. That is suicidal. So very carefully read Bhāgavatam. Don't continue to remain rascal. Then life is successful. This is the Western obstinacy. They want to remain in the rascal platform, and still they claim. Is it not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So people were inclined to send their children to gurukula. Now they are inclined to send their children to cinema, this, that... A difficult task, to institute. Loafer class, they should be trained up as śūdras, in carpentry, moving(?)... It doesn't, do not require academic education. Simply make a skill. They'll learn.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're not after the loafer class.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They are not loafer. They are also useful. But they are... Bringing them to the education, university, they are becoming loafer, ironclad. As soon as the low-class men are given education, he thinks, "Now I have become educated, baḍa bāpu. Why shall I work as a carpenter? I must have credits here." And they're bribing in government office, and sixty percent of the clerks-useless. They do not know how to make file, cumberous. Because everyone is going in New Delhi. And all fourth-class men are admitted. I have seen. If you have to find out an old file, you have to wait six months. Because these people are neither for this purpose nor that purpose.
Prabhupāda: Anywhere. There are lots and hundreds and thousands, but you have to collect them and give them proper education, vidvān, bhaktimān. Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁvā cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam. So if you don't educate them as vidvān and bhaktimān, it is just like blind eye, kāṇa, with some disease, simply giving trouble. That's all. Pluck it out. The medical treatment is pluck it out. So what is the use of begetting cats and dogs? According to our Bhāgavata philosophy, if one is not able to beget nice children, then he should not become father-mother. That is real contraceptive. Gurur na sa syāt jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. The father-mother's duty is to stop repetition of birth and death. That is real father-mother. Otherwise dog is also doing that. Dog is also begetting children. Man is also begetting. What is the difference? The difference is man should be responsible that "This child who has come to me, this is his last birth. No more birth again." Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. "I shall train him in such a way..." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is ideal. The means is already there. And Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca divyaṁ me yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). You can stop your birth and death, your son's birth and death. How? One who knows Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma ca divyaṁ me yo jānāti tattvataḥ. It is open to everyone. Simply one has to know. And where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself. So know yourself, let your sons know, and you become free. Everything is there.
Prabhupāda: Their comforts first. They have done very nice. (Hindi conversation) ...university, but producing hippies. (Hindi) Library in your... It is all nonsense. Who is going to read the books, big, big library? It is simply waste of time. Train them how to become self-controlled, how to become God conscious, how to become humble, obedient. This is required. And so-called education and last result is to become a hippie, what is the use? Simply waste of time. Education is meant for the first-class men. A kṛṣana does not require education. He should see how to plow, and he'll learn. This mistri does not require any... He should work with other mistri, and he'll learn. Architecture, this, that, so many... Why? Why waste your time? This nice building has been constructed by these laborers. They have got training by seeing, by practice. They did not require university education. Of course, guide is there. Of course... So these big, big universities, allowing everyone to come and join school, college—simply wasting time and unemployment. Unemployment. This is not required. Only brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, those who are being trained up as brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya, they should be given book education. Otherwise practical. You see how the things are being done. Bas. A weaver, he sees "Kat, kat, kat." He's got it. Does it require M.A., Ph.D.? Simply waste of time. And that is going on. I don't want that, for "Kat, kat, kat," M.A., Ph D. (Bengali) "To kill a mosquito, bring a gun." (laughter) Nonsense education. I don't like that education. All right.
Prabhupāda: That means they'll not come from such a good family.
Dr. Sharma: Good family. That is the idea.
Guṇārṇava: They'll be low class.
Prabhupāda: So that you cannot do.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those people don't need that education so much.
Prabhupāda: They should be trained up in the field, to the weaving practice or something like that. They don't require education.
Akṣayānanda: Intelligent class.
Prabhupāda: Intelligent class. We cannot make them interested. Some of them may come out, but not all. It is not possible.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes wealthy people are afraid that if their sons come to this gurukula, they'll become sādhus.
Prabhupāda: So that I am seeing, how to... That was the problem. They said, "What will be the benefit, satyavādī?" Satya śamo damo titikṣa, jñāna... (Hindi) So culture is lost. That is the difficulty.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) That is... (Hindi) This is the defect of modern civilization. And Kṛṣṇa wants to impress in the beginning, na jāyate na mriyate vā. (Hindi) Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). (Hindi) This darkness is going on. People are kept in darkness in the name of so-called university education. This is... (Hindi) It will be successful. It may take time. That's all.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...this manager, that manager. But who to manage? Bring that first. (Hindi) In Bengali there is a superstition that "Don't keep your head towards the northern side." So the man said, "I have no head. Where is the question of keeping northern side or southern side?" So you are contemplating all management. First of all bring whom to manage. Simply office manager, this, that and... Bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. (Hindi) All right.
Guṇārṇava: Take Prabhupāda to the bank.
Prabhupāda: Utilize it very properly. So where is the bank manager?
Akṣayānanda: They're calling for him, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So calling from yesterday, but still... Calling? Then let me talk.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. This is very easy. So I am not a scholar. I am simply... Whatever is said there, I am trying to distribute in a palatable way. That's all. It is not my manufacture. And that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You all become guru. "How can I become guru? I have no education. I have no knowledge." No, you haven't got to acquire all these things. That is already... Yāre dekha tāre kaha. Finished. So I never tried to become a scholar. But I tried, whatever is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, deliver. That's all. And that is guru. If some...
Dr. Kumar: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you should rest now.
Prabhupāda: Eh? No...
Surendra Kumar: Talking too much with Your Divine Grace, we have put you through lot of strain.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He has here nice room. He's had prasādam. He had lunch with us.
Surendra Kumar: Everything is your mercy, Divine Grace.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation) How long we have left Bombay?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We left Bombay about a month and a half ago.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...recommended that... What is that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hrishikesh.
Prabhupāda: And woman left alone means prostitution.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what's going on now in Bombay, Calcutta. The men send their unmarried daughters to become secretary. She must be... And even before that, they go to college, freely mixing with the men.
Prabhupāda: As soon as they allow young girl to mix with young boys—finished.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This coeducation is very bad.
Prabhupāda: And in the Western countries it is openly allowed, dating. "Please learn this art." (pause) And if you keep woman chaste, then nice children will come, no hippies.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, just like that boy, Dapni, Dapni's(?) grandson. Nice boy.
Prabhupāda: That's it. And if nice children are there in the society, they will become responsible men. Then there will be no disturbance in the society. Everything will go on smoothly. Brāhmaṇa is acting as brāhmaṇa; kṣatriya is acting as... They are both... No quarrel. No animosity. Everyone is cooperating with one another. The whole society becomes peaceful. Family becomes peaceful. The man personally becomes peaceful. Then he will be able to make progress. Kutaḥ śānti ayuktasya. If you are not peaceful, how you can attain? Or if you are not a devotee, you cannot be peaceful. Or if you are not peaceful, you cannot become devotee. But if you can become devotee, you become peaceful. So I have studied practically. Vedic way of simple life is the best. And unless you adopt the Vedic way of simple life, you'll be implicated, material desires. There is no end.
Prabhupāda: Canada also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Canada, yeah.
Prabhupāda: In Canada all big, big professors in university, they are Indians. In the education they are expert. That means they have got brain.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, the Indians have the best brain.
Prabhupāda: And these shoe-makers, dentists, (indistinct) them. Technician, that's all. Phalena paricīyate. What class of work he is engaged?
Śatadhanya: The Japanese, they're good at technology.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are... They are good technician. There is no doubt. Sony. They can produce these things. (pause) Give me a shirt. (pause) So as one of the executor of the will, after making that scheme, you can give them, that "This is the scheme."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Give to whom, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: These, my boys. That's all.
Prabhupāda: There is no secrecy. Everything is open. Now you have to take advantage. That's all.
Rasāṅgī: She was also considering sending her boys to gurukula here. Turīya has three children..., four children. Three are boys, nine through thirteen.
Prabhupāda: Let them come.
Rasāṅgī: She's considering that. She spoke to Dr. Sharma, and she's very pleased with the type of education and displeased with education in the West, in our...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (break) ...how he'll do better. Big lawyer in the court means he'll be (indistinct). "My Lord Justice..." Deception, this, that... He's a big lawyer.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know... I have a desire to do it, but I don't know if I'll have much opportunity.
Prabhupāda: Well, we have no opportunity, but we'll have to find out opportunity. And that is intelligence. Even those who have opportunity, who is taking care of? Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau **. We have to reduce these things, nidrāhāra. It is for this, only writing. That's all. We have written so many books only for selling?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we have to read them still.
Prabhupāda: No, that, you do not take care. I said three times, "yaḥ." Now you simply saw "y-a." Why did you not see "y-a-ḥ"?
Prabhupāda: No, they are suggesting.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And, of course, they say that there were no humans around, just dust and water and earth. There were no brains at that time.
Prabhupāda: Only brains are developed now.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, especially now, this century. Before this, everybody was unintelligent, and now man's brain is developing to a higher and higher degree, and he can finally understand what is what. I don't think that... Your descriptions, especially this planetarium, will at first meet with a lot of heavy reaction. It is not going to be embraced immediately very favorably. It means that everyone who calls himself a Ph.D. is a fool, that students will laugh at their teachers, if what we say is correct. There will be chaos in educational circles. (Prabhupāda chuckles)
Prabhupāda: All right.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)
Prabhupāda: Nothing is wrong. From their estimate it is all right. But there is superior power.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They go due west and they hit India from Los Angeles, but according to our calculation, that's not possible.
Prabhupāda: You can go further, but you cannot go. That is condition. You are restricted. The same, that you are bound up. If an animal can go further... But he cannot, because he is bound up. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). He is thinking, "I am free." He is not free. So what is the value of his education? This is the real point.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll want to talk about another point.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll want to talk about the point that the point on their compass that points west while they're flying in the airplane, and they keep it going west, and they eventually land in India from Los Angeles.
Prabhupāda: You are flying west or east—you do not know. You are controlled.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say, "No, our compass shows it. And you accept the compass."
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are going west, but do you think where you think that the west is end, that is not end. You can go further.
Prabhupāda: So what is the use of arguing?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's better to take the fruit and offer it to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That's right. We take it as accepted, mahā-muni kṛte. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satām (SB 1.1.2).
Bhakti-prema: Vedyaṁ vāstavam atra vastu śivadaṁ tāpa-trayonmūlanam, śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiṁ vā parair īśvaraḥ sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt.
Prabhupāda: Śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt. There is no other way.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a very good lesson, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: You do not require to be puffed-up with your so-called education. It has no value. (end)
Prabhupāda: He cannot express what is his inconvenience, and he's feeling one inconvenience, and the mother is trying to make him happy in other way. He's crying more, more, more, more. Where is happiness? Within the womb there was unhappiness, packed-up. When he comes down there is unhappiness. Then go to school, take education, appear for examination—that is unhappiness. Then grow up, then engage in some earning money—that is unhappiness. Then maintain your children, and that is unhappiness. Where is happiness, rascals? Rascal. Both are suffering.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Without Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of happiness.
Prabhupāda: This is simply anarthas, unnecessary creating unhappiness. Unnecessary.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But with Kṛṣṇa, all those things you describe become happy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa makes adjustment. Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and He is giving advice that "Do like this. You'll be happy in this life and next."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually we work all day long—no salary, no vacation—and we're...
Prabhupāda: Still, they are happy.
Prabhupāda: You can say, but who made you representative? You can say all nonsense. That is your business. (break)... who will give something standard, they'll be established. That standard is in this varṇāśrama. Here is the standard, that leg must be there, the hand must be there, the head must be there, the belly must be... One who has got the qualities to work like hand, he must work as hand. That is natural. These rascals have no education actually. Therefore I always say, "rascals." They manufacture. They are imperfect, and they manufacture. (break) "Probably," "maybe," like that. No standard logic. So, (Bengali)
Vrindavan De: Nandagrāma, Varṣāṇā, Rādhā-kuṇḍa, Śyāma-kuṇḍa. (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: Govardhana Hill?
Vrindavan De: Govardhana. (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) So do you know anything about Bengal situation?
Vrindavan De: I think it's okay now.
Prabhupāda: What is the Communist view?
Vrindavan De: Communist view?
Prabhupāda: They don't want religion? What is this leader? Ajit Bose?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jyoti Bose.
Prabhupāda: Without reading books they'll understand the philosophy. That is the advantage. Mass of people, without education, they will understand the philosophy.
Bhāgavatāśraya: It's like the circus.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "I have sent out an advertisement to all centers to encourage them to order Guru and Gaurāṅga Deities from us. We can deliver these to them in very short time and at a lower cost than the Jaipur craftsmen."
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "I hope that this meets with your approval."
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Very good.
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I haven't seen what this is yet. It's from Gargamuni Mahārāja. It's "To all India GBC and temple presidents: Dear Mahārājas and Prabhus, please accept my humble obeisances. Enclosed please find our newly established Encyclopedia of Vedic Knowledge program. This is the beginning of the major big book distribution program in India. Our library party has already received tremendous success in this program, and Śrīla Prabhupāda has greatly encouraged us to sell these all over India. The profit only amounts to Rs. 10 per book, but it will allow everyone to regularly read our books and refer to it as an authentic encyclopedia. Our aim is to replace this encyclopedia against all other encyclopedias, which are meant to take the people to the hellish planets. When our representatives come to your area, please be good enough to assist them in making possible that Śrīla Prabhupāda's books be distributed to leading educational, intellectual persons all over India." Here's what he's published, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's called "The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust Library Encyclopedia of Vedic Knowledge." I think I should read it to you, because it's got mostly words in it.
Prabhupāda: Read the covering.
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, minister is very favorable to us.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "In addition, the Gujarati government has requested all libraries in the state to purchase our books by way of newsletter."
Prabhupāda: Oh. Wonderful.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Here in Maharastra the new Chief Minister and Education Minister have approved of our movement, and on the basis of these letters I sent our devotees to five district towns, on the basis of these letters." On the strength of the letters from the Chief Minister and Education Minister, he sent his devotees to five district towns, and they secured thirty-two standing orders in three weeks.
Bhāgavatāśraya: From five towns!
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Now we are going to all the district towns." That means not very big cities. "Now we are going to all the district towns in Maharastra, and almost one thousand standing orders have been taken all over India so far. Since we have started the encyclopedia program many persons have ordered every single book you have published. Nearly twenty encyclopedia orders have been taken so far." This means every book. Not just one standing order. Complete.
Prabhupāda: May Kṛṣṇa bless him. You are doing very tremendous job.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Write Gargamuni. He'll send more. This is an important Encyclopedia of Vedic Knowledge reviews. Actually he got all of these reviews recently. That's amazing. It's amazing how many reviews they got. These are all from the months of May and June I think. Yeah. You want to hear some of them? "Minister of Education: 'Message: The ancient roots of traditional Indian life reach farther into the distant past than any other country on earth. What thousands of years ago culminated in education included the development in the student of all good qualities. In other words the pupil was ignited with a desire to learn and develop himself rather than strive for material rewards. From out of the great ages the ancients, headed by Śrī Vyāsadeva, have left us the timeless treatise of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the basis of all education.' " This is the Minister of Education, the Government of Maharastra. She's admitting...
Prabhupāda: Vedavyāsa.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...Vyāsadeva is the basis of all education. " 'Later the saint Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, in commenting upon the life of the great Mahāprabhu Śrī Caitanya, brought to the highest level of understanding these principles in his immortal Indian classic, Caitanya-caritāmṛta. It is good fortune of the world that these two spiritual works presented as the Encyclopedia of Indian Culture have been translated and commented upon in the style of a true scholar by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Śrīla Prabhupāda, out of his obviously great desire to inject the world with his vast storehouse of learning, has translated precisely the rich Sanskrit and Bengali ślokas. He has given the transliteration, word-for-word meaning, purports, and each volume filled with full color illustrations by his disciples. I therefore wholeheartedly recommend this encyclopedia of our culture and all other Bhaktivedanta Book Trust publications to all educational institutions, schools, libraries, and colleges concerned with the moral and cultural development of their students within the boundary of Maharastra and throughout the world.' "
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's one from the Mayor of Bombay, Murali S. Deora. He's the new mayor. " 'The good work of the members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is well known to me. It is especially commendable that the founder-ācārya of the society, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, has been able to convince so many foreigners all about the simple purity of India's exalted philosophy-plain living and high thinking. Swamiji is a very highly respected Vedic scholar, and he has seen to it that his numerous disciples from all over India and the world stick to the actual disciplines required of students of our ancient philosophy. The growing cultural and educational center now under construction at Juhu...' " He refers it as the growing cultural and educational center. He's understood your purpose, Śrīla Prabhupāda. " '...is an object of deep interest and pride to myself and all fellow Bombay citizens. The members of Kṛṣṇa consciousness are always well mannered and cheerful due to the blessings of their benign Swamiji. Anyone who reads Śrīla Prabhupāda's clear translations and commentaries of well-known Sanskrit and Bengali literature can understand his secret of success. I do not think such accurate scholarly and clear expositions of Vedic culture can be found in English elsewhere. His Bhaktivedanta Book Trust publishing house has made sure that the immortal words of our classics have been presented in first-class style. Among the BBT publications, the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Caitanya-caritāmṛta, comprising an encyclopedia of Vedic knowledge, are especially notable. I have examined volumes of these sets and recommend these sets not only for our municipal corporation libraries and municipal-funded libraries, but for all libraries of the world...' "
Prabhupāda: They are approaching municipal libraries?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. " 'But for all libraries of the world, wherever people have a sincere interest to go into the depths of Vedic philosophy.' Signed Murali S. Deora, Mayor of Bombay."
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're tremendous. Here is a letter from the member of the advisory board of the Sāhitya Academy. You know what that is Śrīla Prabhupāda? Sāhitya Academy? I think it's a literary academy. " 'No earthly writer today can match the vast outpouring of pure verse which our ancient sages, particularly the great Vyāsadeva, have left to the world. Motivated by a deep desire to give moral, cultural, and educational upliftment to all people irrespective of caste, creed or nationality, they have taught us the higher values of life through the medium of historical narrations, biographies, the lives of great men, and simple instructive stories. The unlimited wealth which they have left behind in the Devanāgarī script is sheer ecstasy to read for the poet, the student and the common man. Since dialectic differences began to splinter men into smaller groups, the original language, Sanskrit, was gradually forgotten. It is special grace upon the denizens of this world today that His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has done such a tremendous job of meticulously translating into so many languages the sacred books of our heritage. Swamiji's most noteworthy achievement is his Encyclopedia of Vedic Education, the multivolume presentation of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Caitanya-caritāmṛta.' " One thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this calling it the Encyclopedia of Vedic..., as he's doing...Everyone has always known the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, but fewer people knew Caitanya-caritāmṛta, and now these two are lumped together as equally very important works.
Prabhupāda: Complete.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very much increased...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: So the Communist country they will be following.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: " 'Any educational center interested in giving a complete education to its pupils should follow the example set by the University of California, the British Library, the Oxford University, and the University of Bombay, among many others, who have ordered sets of the BBT's encyclopedia. As an Indian, I am proud of the vast accomplishments of my fellow countryman, Swami Prabhupāda.' "
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe later on I can read some more of these to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They are very ecstatic. Yeah. Later on I'll read more to you. We haven't even touched this section. This is the list.
Prabhupāda: So send Gargamuni many thanks for arranging in the libraries. Kṛṣṇa is blessing him. Organize in Bombay office very nicely, and arrange for printing enough stock. All money collected should be invested immediately. This is giving me new life, all these. Somebody is proposing to give us some dairy land? Dairy.
Prabhupāda: Just see. She is natural Vaiṣṇavī. Natural Vaiṣṇavī. So give them proper education. This is real education. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). That is the Vedic civilization, to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedānta-vid vedānta-kṛt ca aham. So at least this knowledge from India must be spread all over the world. We are making a humble attempt. We have no such thing, these... "You have got money and I'll snatch it." The Communists take it. Just see. They have taken. "Why so big, big buildings? Take them away."
Governor: In Madras I find quite a good atmosphere for this religious character.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, I know that.
Governor: That Kanjarama Śaṅkarācārya, he's doing a lot for spread of Gītā and Vedānta literature. Though he's eighty-four he's doing wonderful work. And another Śaṅkarācārya is also moving. (Hindi) (prasādam offered to guests)
Prabhupāda: This is our homemade.
Governor: And there I find many good institutions working for Vedānta, Veda. The pronunciations are also...
Prabhupāda: Very nice.
Prabhupāda: What you have gained? Your father died. Your mother died. You are a great scientist. Why you cannot save them? What is the value of your education? Simply empty voice. You'll also die. Can you make provision that you'll not die?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Future," they'll say.
Prabhupāda: That is empty voice.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, boy. He says, "The highly developed forebrain and the deeply convoluted cortex have helped him to think creatively. Scientists, as a general rule, are objective thinkers because they base their thoughts on empirical knowledge. Mystics and visionaries, the so-called spiritual scientists of Dāsa and Swami, on the other hand, build up their thoughts on their subjective perceptions. Books on chemistry, physics, mathematics, geography, history, geology, anthropology, paleontology, engineering, medical science, astronomy, etc., are the products of objective thinkers."
Prabhupāda: Big, big words, that's all.
Prabhupāda: How many copies they have published?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think... I got a letter from Satsvarūpa yesterday. I think this issue was 400,000. It varies between 400-and 500,000 copies. Generally about a half a million every month. Pretty good standard.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break) ...bad education. They have learned to... No education. (aside:) Get this down here. I am seriously thinking how to do. Organized, a society for sinful activities, Western. Now you are advanced, sincerely carry on. At least in America.
Gurukṛpā: This restaurant is very good propaganda. They get a higher taste. I've seen on the airplane when I went last time. I had some cookies from the restaurant, so I gave them to the pilot, the stewardess, and said to give them to everyone. And they came and said, "Oh, we have been to your restaurant. We appreciate very much. It is very nice."
Prabhupāda: In this way we have to change their mentality.
Gurukṛpā: If they..., we make aware of the actual suffering they are causing on the animals.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Gurukṛpā:. If they are aware... They are not really aware of the actual suffering that they're causing the animals.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think the animals don't have any feelings or soul.
Prabhupāda: No, they think in so many way, nonsense rascals. What is the value of their thinking? Rascals, all number one rascals. They say, "Why do you...?" But they, how they can believe? Their whole life is belief, no factual knowledge.
Prabhupāda: It is dirty?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think so. Yes. So we'll be in the next room, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (offer obeisances) (break)
Haṁsadūta: ...self-independence. But we can see as you explain to us, when they get this education they become just like a dog going from door to door looking for a morsel of food. The island of Shree Lanka is very, very green, because they have a lot of rainfall. Right now it's rainy season and very lush. All fruits, vegetables grow there. But the government has a foolish policy. They produce tea and tobacco and rubber and all useless rubbish things. They could produce food ten times for the population, but they don't...
Prabhupāda: Anywhere, not only Ceylon.
Haṁsadūta: They still have wild elephants in the jungles. Here is Bhagatji, Prabhupāda. Bhagatji has come.
Prabhupāda: In which paper the arrest of Indira Gandhi?
Bhagatji: Indira Gandhi was arrested last night at eight o'clock.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhavānanda Mahārāja was saying how last night you were saying that there's nothing nicer and more fortunate than to be the pūjārī of a Deity. (break) We'll just get the sum and substance. He's offering his obeisances to Bhavānanda Mahārāja and the other devotees he met here. He says he's very anxious about your health and progress. He requested me to give him a report. He says as regards to starting of the dispensary and also organizing a health teaching center for educating the boys by the latest audio-visual methods, he said that you seemed to be very earnest about it. In fact, he says that you told him to start as soon as possible. But he wishes to explain some of his difficulties. So Sharma and Jagadīśa, the director of education, and... They they've promised to go through the idea. But he didn't find that Dr. Sharma showed much inclination for this idea. The actual thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that we want him to have a dispensary. We're not so much eager for his educational training. Naturally Dr. Sharma was not so enthusiastic.
Prabhupāda: No. Ours is spiritual education, no medical education.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. That's the point.
Prabhupāda: Preliminary health principles, they can le...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's already going on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: M.M. De. So in my letter to him I explained to him... I enclosed a copy of the conveyance draft, and I requested him that as far as I was concerned, the draft was all right, but that he should check up with some of the other flat owners. If they executed a similar conveyance, please inform me, and then we will do as they have done. I also told him that whatever taxes or other things which he pays should be paid in your name, and receipts should be gotten in your name, and copies of the receipts he can please send me for my records. And I also wrote to him that regarding the permanent electricity supply, if the four of them together pay half of the amount, then as soon as they send me the receipt, then I will send a check for the other half. Those were the points I wrote in the letter to him. What I'm going to do is, as soon as I get this amendment done which mentions about the misspending, not to misspend the money-squandering clause—then I will send a copy of that along with a letter, explaining to them how each one of them will be getting Rs. 250, and then after seven years, you know, the bigger amount. And then I will send them a copy of that squandering clause with that, saying, "But you should not squander this money. It must be invested in fixed deposits or government bonds. Otherwise your monthly pension will be stopped and it will be given to Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity." I'm only going to do that after I get the amendment clause finished. So like that, everything was done, and I finished all of that business today. Also I wrote a letter to Dr. Ghosh, telling him that whatever money he advances we will match, again repeating our offer that we have two rooms ready. And I also mentioned to him how... He mentioned how he was a little disappointed with his discussions. I said that is not so surprising, because our Gurukula is ultimately meant for spiritual education, not otherwise, and we're only going to give a little basic hygiene teaching. I said, "Mainly now you should take up this dispensary. We are very eager for that." And again I invited him to come here soon. And I gave him a report of your health. And I also sent a letter to Bank of America in Los Angeles for transferring six hundred dollars to Prabhaviṣṇu in Nepal, because each month we have to give him that money so he can stay there and work there nicely. And then I did some other letters to Punjab Bank in Delhi to the head office, telling them that the interest... For now the interest from those fixed deposits we'll have credited to your account here. And once we have the first meeting of the Bhaktivedanta Charity Trust..., Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust, we'll open a bank account, probably in Māyāpur or Swarup Ganj.
Prabhupāda: Why not open the Charity Trust account in Delhi?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Delhi?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhakti-caru: It's a beautiful city also.
Girirāja: Yes. It's very peaceful and clean.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sounds like a good place to take you sometime, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Girirāja: The air is very, very pure. They hardly have any industry there, and very few motorcars. It's very unspoiled. So the air is clean and the people are also nice. Until a few years ago, there was no system of compulsory education, so the new ideas, Western ideas, have not come very much there.
Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda? (Bengali)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like a little soft chanting?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you haven't passed urine in some time. Would you like to try?
Prabhupāda: There is no...
Bhavānanda: No need. (end)
Prabhupāda: Don't try for China.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You had said that before a few times also. They are completely restricted in every respect. Whereas in other..., East European countries and in Russia, the professors may read various types of literature, in China they're not allowed to do that. And if they are ever caught doing that, they immediately are sentenced to prison and they lose everything. The difference in China as opposed to Russia is that in China every few years all the professors are made to be farmers. And also the workers in the factories and the farmers are the predominate controllers of the universities. They are not at all interested in culture or in higher education. Their whole purpose even for the universities is to train up loyal Chinese citizens. Everything is for that end. So no cultural interest would ever be tolerated on the part of the authorities there. And the people are so much controlled by these authorities that they would lose everything.
Prabhupāda: Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). (pause)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? You said before that you..., that it is said that you were poisoned?
Prabhupāda: No. These kind of symptoms are seen when a man is poisoned. He said like that, not that I am poisoned.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did anyone tell you that, or you just know it from before?
Prabhupāda: I read something.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah, I see. That's why actually we cannot allow anyone else to cook for you.
Prabhupāda: That is good.
| Page Title: | Education (Conversations 1977) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 14 of Dec, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=137, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 137 |