Doctor (Conversations - 1977)

Expressions researched:
"doctor" |"doctoring" |"doctors"

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- January 3, 1977, Bombay:

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Having Setterji with us... When he has (?) relax for few days, rest for few days.

Prabhupāda: Huh? If you have lost your kṣatriya spirit, then take him.

Setterji: When he came with that barrister to give you to notice... (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)... Mantrer(?) was so against, that "We must stop this." Yes. I heard from that doctor that he was insulted by Seti, "Either Seti should go..." Like that, he has repeated me. He gave me hint that Seti... (Hindi) And you know that. The doctor, what is that doctor? He suggested. He's Mantrer's(?) man. Yes. Yes.

Setterji: He was also play the game in the land, that...

Prabhupāda: He gave hint that "Give Mantrer two lakhs of rupees." Yes. He was canvasser on behalf of Mantrer. He wanted two lakhs.

Setterji: Which we'll not give you a single paisa. We will fight to you. "Come on."

Prabhupāda: So I think you make this point. But best thing is that if you can acquire that land, that is the best solution.

Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No. Train, first-class is very comfortable.

Dr. Patel: But you see, after all, it takes upon the health, twenty-four hours.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Rather, doctor, your doc..., civil ser..., man, he said that, "Avoid plane." For me he had said.

Trivikrama: Yes, because the atmosphere changes.

Dr. Patel: But pressurized plane, no. On nonpressurized plane, not.

Trivikrama: He is the knower of his body.

Dr. Patel: All right. I had gone to Allahabad by train. (laughs) I had a very bad experience myself.

Prabhupāda: No, first-class is... We reserved whole room, so no outsider there; will be very comfortable.

Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, at that time it was selling 150. And now it is more than four hundred. Our land is, only one crore, apart from these buildings. Therefore everyone is envious.

Dr. Patel: Most envious men are... That fellow was himself burned by pouring kerosene on. He was a most envious fellow. He even once told me, "Why do you go there?"

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Dr. Patel: I used to treat his family. I was doctor. And I stopped treating him because he has not, he was so envious. He has got half a dozen girls in his family. I mean, where you will get...

Prabhupāda: In Kali-yuga there is no marriage. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Agreement.

Trivikrama: By agreement.

Dr. Patel: That is in Western countries.

Prabhupāda: No, everywhere. India also.

Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda;: Yes. Just like this finger is the part and parcel of my body. So this finger, I say, "Finger come here. Itch here," so it is doing that. And if it is... If it cannot do, then it is diseased. If there is some painless, painfulness or some sore, then immediately I cannot do it. So that means I am part and parcel of God. If I cannot serve God, then I am diseased. That is material condition. So material condition... Suppose this finger is diseased. So you poke up, applying some ointment and going to the doctor. This is one business. And when it is cured, when it is actually engaged in service, that is healthy state. So this social work without serving God is just like applying ointment to the diseased part of the... It has no value, practical value. If it... It has got value, provided it is cured, to serve the whole body. So if the finger is not so cured to serve the whole body, then it remains diseased. You go on applying ointment; it has no use. Similarly, to serve humanity means if you can raise him to the consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then, then, then it is right. And if you keep him in ignorance—you go on all kinds of human service—it is all useless. Śrama eva hi kevalam.

Morning Walk -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: You cannot educate, neither you bring. This is māyā. Do you think... Do you think that only in your presence your children will be happy? There are... Just see here in the corner, the father, mother, and the child is always, twenty-four hours, crying. The father, mother, is there. They are poor men, they are taking care, but still, the child is unhappy; it is crying twenty-four hours. There are many you'll find. So does it mean that in the presence of father, mother, a child is happy? Everyone is being conducted by his destiny. The father, mother, may be there or may not be there; his destiny will go on. This is the law of nature. You see here. Do you mean to say, because that man is poor, he's not taking care of the child? Why the child is crying twenty-four hours? So if one child is made to cry by his destiny, even in the presence of his father, mother, he has to cry. Nobody can make him happy. So this is called illusion, that "I am doing." Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). A rascal, he thinks like that. But it is not the fact. The fact is prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ. His destiny or her destiny is to suffer. So even though father, mother... Suppose a rich man's son is sick. He has engaged good physician, good doctor. Does it mean that he will guarantee life? Then what is the principle? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau. Prahlāda Mahārāja said that "It is not a fact that when the children are under the protection of father and mother, he's secure." Tvad-upekṣitānām: "If You neglect, that 'This child must cry; this child must die,' then even by the greatest care of the father and mother, he will die." So what is the use, saying that your duty...? Duty? That is māyā.

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Today or tomorrow. Best thing is so long we have got this opportunity of human form of life, let us cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is...

Guest (1): I came other day also and you were advised by the doctors not to see you.

Prabhupāda: No-doctor says like that. I see everyone.

Guest (1): So Gopāla Kṛṣṇa told me... That was the first day with the doctor. You accepted that doctor's decision. So it was first day when I came. So Gopāla Kṛṣṇa told me this is the problem as it is, and I'm not disappointed at all. I am one with Prabhupāda so there is no difficulty. So I took a chance today.

Prabhupāda: So I did not like that idea.

Morning Discussion about Kumbhamela -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) ...that within the Kṛṣṇa's mouth there are millions of brahmāṇḍas, they think it is simply fictitious. Doctor, saheb, you are feeling all right?

Dr. Patel: No, I just ran. I ran a little, so I...

Prabhupāda: Oh, so why don't you sit down?

Gurudāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like to have an elephant to ride on one day?

Prabhupāda: Why? (laughter)

Gurudāsa: I heard, one of these "Prabhupāda saids" from one of the devotees that you said that "If they can ride an elephant, can you get one for me?" Some devotees said that you saw another sādhu riding on the elephant, and you asked him, "Can you arrange like that for me?"

Prabhupāda: (laughing) That was joking.

Morning Darsana and Room Conversation Ramkrishna Bajaj and friends -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is my point. Why you become falsely proud that you have done so advancement that you don't care for God, you don't care for the original manufacturer? That is your fault.

Guest (2): The other day there was a doctor who had come from America for transplantation of kidney, and he has given a lecture in the Rotary Club. I was there. Now they give so much importance to the person who is able to transplant kidney from one body to the other, but how about the whole human being or the universe which has been created by God? Now, this is just a very, very insignificant thing which is already there which is just transplanted. But they feel so happy and proud.

Prabhupāda: That is my point, falsely proud.

Room Conversation -- January 10, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: I had one... When I was doing medical business I had one very nice customer. He was my patron also, one Muhammadan doctor, Sriraja Uttina.(?) He was very kind to me. He was just like a father to me. So his system was that in his pharmacy, patent medicine, drugs, medicine, surgical instruments, like that different headings. So suppose, at the sales time, sells some patent medicine. So he has got a box. So he puts the price in the patent medicine. And if he sells some surgical, he puts the price in the surgical pot. In this way, when they want to purchase again, so he would consult his pot, whether there is money. Then he'll allow to purchase. Otherwise not. So he told me, "This is my account. This is my account. When they want to purchase, they consign us something. I shall allow them to purchase so much as I have got in the box." This is... I have seen that gentleman. And in Calcutta there was... In our young time there was a cinema, Mr. Maddar, J.F. Maddar. He's a Parsee. So for some..., business, he was tenant of mine. One of my tenants. So in his room there were boxes. So I asked Mr. Maddar what is this box at home. And "This is the counter containing counter part of ticket in my cinema house. So these are sent to me. I count the counter part. Then I can calculate, 'This is the calculation.' I don't keep an account. Now let them do whatever they like. I understand that so many counter parts, so much money."

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sixty-seven. I am on the five.

Hari-śauri: I think the pen's still in the case. Or the pencil's still in the red case. Rāmeśvara: We know you have a very low opinion of doctors. (laughter) Prabhupāda: I wish to die without a doctor. Don't... When I am... It may be. I may be seriously, but don't call doctor. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't be disturbed. Everyone has to die. Let us die peacefully, without doctor. All this medicine, injections, and prohibitions, this, that. Hari-śauri: Tīrtha Mahārāja had all kinds of machines. Still didn't save him. Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and depend on Kṛṣṇa. Actually... Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ. That is the Prahlāda Mahārāja's verse. Find out this. Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nṛsiṁha.

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa saved. Otherwise that was fatal.

Gargamuni: The doctor said that "How is it that he is still here?" They said.

Prabhupāda: When?

Gargamuni: When you had that attack.

Prabhupāda: Ha, ha.

Gargamuni: It was during the... You were lecturing on Caitanya-caritāmṛta in the morning lectures you were giving.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Gargamuni: I can remember. And one morning you said you were not feeling well. And the doctor said... I can remember. Your left side was paralyzed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Paralyzed, yes.

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Gargamuni: Left side. And this is most dangerous, the doctor said. Maybe for swelling we can increase the massaging to three times a day.

Hari-śauri: That's what this guy told me, not to massage very much.

Gargamuni: Oh.

Hari-śauri: At least not while the swelling is there. Actually that medicine that Shiv Sharma gave you, that was reduced. I don't think this homeopathic medicine is any good.

Prabhupāda: So you can give me that.

Gargamuni: My father, he also used to get swelling, but this was due to diabetes.

Prabhupāda: I have got diabetes also.

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: This Doctor Frankenstein, he took dead bodies from the graveyards, and he sewed them together, and then, by electrical energy, it charged...

Prabhupāda: This is imagination.

Rāmeśvara: ...like a battery.

Prabhupāda: "Young Frankenstein." Oh, I have seen that picture. (laughter)

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Rāmeśvara: That means people want to believe in immortality. They want eternal life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is factual. Nobody wants to die. Even on death bed, one thinks, "If something could have been done for my saving..." One gentleman in Allahabad, he was our friend. So he was dying at the age of fifty-four. So he was requesting the doctors, "Can you not prolong my life for four years more? Then I could finish my scheme." Such a madman. What is nonsense scheme? Āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhāḥ kāma... Find out this, āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhaḥ.

Hari-śauri:

āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhaḥ

kāma-krodha-parāyaṇāḥ

īhante kāma-bhogārtham

anyāyenārtha-sañcayān

Prabhupāda: Anyāyenārtha-sañcayān.

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Gauḍīya Matha. Gauḍīya Matha.

Gargamuni: Yes. Because no one is maintaining, and he has no followers, and, he knows, when he dies then there's nothing. So he was interested. And not only him, but his supporters were also pushing him to sign it over, and they had agreed. But then the war broke out, and I left, and I think a lot of them have been killed who were his main finance backers. He had some lawyers and doctors who were donating, but I think they have all been killed. So now he has no one. So recently some of our men have gone to Dacca for visa to come back, and he's still interested, more so now.

Prabhupāda: He's not killed.

Gargamuni: No. He survived.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Long life.

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: When I was there, there were many doctors and lawyers, and I think all of them have been murdered. I think the only Hindus that are left are the poor people. But while I was there the teachers and the lawyers... The most prominent lawyer was Hindu. Doctors, all educated men.

Prabhupāda: Dead.

Gargamuni: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just see the policy.

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Yes, Dacca University next to Calcutta University. Just see how human beings are becoming less than ferocious animals.

Gargamuni: Even one man, he was making a plaque in your name in thankfulness for preaching this Vaiṣṇava-dharma. He was making a wooden plaque, and he was a doctor of physics at the university. And one night they came in and shot him and his whole family, this man. He was very helpful to us while we were there.

Prabhupāda: Only fault that he was making some...

Gargamuni: No, his fault was that he had some education. Anyone who was doing anything... This one boy who was translating your books, he was a very educated person. He was about thirty years old.

Prabhupāda: Hindu.

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: The doctor must...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: ...save the patient. It's his duty.

Prabhupāda: No artificial dealing. Purge out.

Hari-śauri: When one actually has the power, he can do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: That is already there. We have to make little research. It, already there. There are books, Āyurvedic books. They are very nice. Everything can be done. Dhanvantari. It is given by Dhanvantari avatāra, incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: You have written in the First Canto that we welcome scientists, doctors...

Prabhupāda: Yes, if it is beneficial.

Rāmeśvara: We welcome all these people if they dovetail their work for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Just like a patient does not know how he will be cured, but the surgeon—"Operation. Clear out these pusses." He may protest, "Oh, you are clearing out my pusses!" But "Yes! It is my business. Clear out the pusses. Then you will be relieved—by force." But he can protest, "Oh, you are clearing out my pusses!" "Pusses, what for you...? Pusses is not to be maintained. It has to be cleared out." This is para upakāra, doing good to others. And the patient will protest, "Oh, this rascal doctor, killing me, killing me, killing me!" "Yes, I am not killing you. I am saving you. You go on accusing me any way, but I must do my duty." This is the point. "Yes, we are washing brain," exactly like the experienced surgeon. He doesn't make any compromise. "Oh, you are suffering from the boil. There is pus. All right, you don't like operation?" Will that cure? ""No, fool! Come one. Bring knife. Cut it. Press. Now?" "Oh, I am so relieved! You are God. You are God." Then he will see. That is our duty: purge out all pusses accumulated due to infection, material infection. This is our duty. We cannot make any compromise. When the pusses are to be purged out, we cannot take your advice, that "Just blow some air from the mouth or some fan. It will be cured." No, it will not be. Take surgical operation. That is only way. Purge out. "No this! No this! No this! No meat-eating, no..." This is purging.

Room Conversation -- January 22, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: They cannot manage nicely. The Africans are not so qualified. The Indians, they are managing business, everything.

Brahmānanda: Now Amin in Uganda, he's now inviting so many Indians to come as teachers, doctors. He's getting them from India now.

Hari-śauri: He just kicked them all out.

Brahmānanda: Now he's getting them back again.

Prabhupāda: Such a rascal. They are thrown away from the established condition; so now he wants them back. In one sense it is right, that these rascals may not imitate him.

Room Conversation with Film Producer about Krsna Lila -- January 22, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Take prasāda. Generally... Of course, I do not know what you have done. Generally they present rasa-līlā. They describe rasa-līlā. These professional Bhāgavata means they immediately begin to recite rasa-līlā. Bhāgavata reading dissertation means rasa-līlā. And people take in a different way, that "Kṛṣṇa was woman-hunter. He married sixteen thousand wives, and He had three hundred thousand gopīs, and He was enjoying with woman. Just see." I saw one doctor. He was a debauch. He was Muhammadan. So his friend came. So... In Calcutta. So he was addressing, kibava Kṛṣṇa.(?) Just see. Kṛṣṇa means debauch.

Evening Darsana -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: He started this rajya hope: "We must have our own in hand."(?) So he was a very big man, barrister. One, his friend, he was also brāhmaṇa. So he felt it, and he was taking daily Gaṇgā-snāna. So this, his friend, Mr. Bannerjee, he came to see him, that "You bring one doctor." He refused: "No, I don't want. I'll drink this Ganges water." So he never took any help from the brāhmaṇas. But simply drinking Ganges water cured. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also it is stated, nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ, tāvad vibho tanu-bhrtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām (SB 7.9.19). A doctor medicine is not actually cure. Unless.... If somebody is neglected, denounced by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, any amount of medicine or good physician will not be able to cure. Father, mother, is not the shelter of the children. The things are described in the Bhāgavatam.

Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: ...perception. That is experience. Why do you give on seeing only? By seeing one mango you cannot understand what quality it is, but you have to touch with your tongue. Therefore in chemical laboratory the characteristics are there: "This is the color. This is the taste. This is the reaction." So you have to gather experience like that, not by simply seeing. That... I gave the example. Now you take one egg. What is there? Some white and some yellow substance. So you make one egg with white and yellow and bring life. So what is the power of your seeing? A small egg. Take a small egg. The covering, some celluloid, within, some white substance, some yellow substance. Or make further analysis and give some chemicals of the same taste, same color, same characteristic—now bring life. But the same thing. You put under the feather of the chicken. Within five days it will bring life. So what is the credit of these rascal doctors, D.H.C.? That a small chicken is better than these D.H.C. Why don't you see practically?

Gargamuni: The chicken is simply sitting, and he is...

Prabhupāda: He is bringing life. What is the answer of these rascal scientists?

Satsvarūpa: No good answer. Bluff.

Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: They are luscious(?) that... (break) Just like a tuberculosis patient. To him doctor says that "You don't have sex life. That will bring your death." Does it mean sex life is bad? The tuberculosis person, for him it is bad, not for the sane man, not for the healthy man. So when sex life is advised to..., forbidden, that is for the diseased condition. But who is never diseased—he is perfect—for him there is no forbidding of sex life. So you do not understand that in this material condition you are suffering only. You have no brain. Therefore morality, immorality, good, bad, there are so many things. But when one is perfect, healthy, for him all the activities of life is perfect. Just like a physician advised me, "You don't take salt." Does it mean salt is bad? I am in a particular condition of this kidney trouble or liver trouble. For me salt is bad. But does it mean salt bad?

Gurukṛpā: No. It's very good.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, sex life for you is bad, not for Kṛṣṇa. You are thinking Kṛṣṇa like you, mūḍha.

Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: No, they were arranging for some operation.

Gargamuni: Yes. Those doctors.

Prabhupāda: I told Kīrtanānanda, "Give me massage."

Gargamuni: I can remember. I wheeled you down for test.

Prabhupāda: The heart was also very painful still.

Gargamuni: They wanted to take some blood, and I had to stop them.

Prabhupāda: They were examining my brain. Then I thought, "I must go away." I told, "Doctor, I am all right. I can go."

Gargamuni: They wanted to do so many tests. They wanted to take also from spine.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: Oh. Never call doctor. Never give me hospital. Let me die peacefully if I am in trouble.

Gargamuni: Tīrtha Mahārāja had many doctors.

Prabhupāda: He has suffered too much. When I was in Los Angeles after coming back from India, in that black quarter, do you remember? No.

Gargamuni: Black order?

Prabhupāda: Black quarter.

Room Conversation -- January 26, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: Hm. That is going on. Big, big patent medicine, they will explain scientifically and give to the doctor and make experiment, and they will go on making experiment. I know this. This is their business. They'll write, they will call for the medical students—they have learned new, new words—and they'll pay to make a literature with bombastic scientific word, and they'll prepare literature. This literature will be distributed and give their medicine, and they may pay them for false propaganda. This is going on to introduce new patent medicine. I know that. Simply water they will inject to get money. The patients have come, innocent, illiterate—"How want to be...? Do you want to be cured very quickly or little less?" He's a laborer. He says, "Yes, sir, if you cure me." "So then injection will be required." He has no disease, and they'll give some water injection, yes, and take fee. Because as soon as there is question injection, he'll charge at least four rupees, five rupees. He has no disease. They will inject water and take four, five rupees. In India I have seen.

Room Conversation -- January 26, 1977, Puri:

Gurukṛpā: If you need... If you have one infection in America, you know what you need—some penicillin, something to kill the infection. But the doctor will have to make all sorts of experiments to tell you what you already know.

Prabhupāda: "You first of all give so much blood. So much give me, and then..."

Gurukṛpā: Yes. And charge you fifty dollars.

Prabhupāda: Regular business. It is very difficult to consult with a doctor.

Gurukṛpā: And I saw the dentist. He tried to ruin one of my tooth so he could do work on that also and make more money. He tried to damage the teeth.

Prabhupāda: Money is the only aim. And they will talk all nonsense and make experiment, especially in the Western countries. Here also they have got now money-making sight. Lawyers also. Any... I have seen in our relatives, big, big rich men. The brothers may sit down and make some... My father-in-law did that. They sat down, and they were two brothers, and divided his property and got two days. But those who are rascals, they go to lawyer and continually meeting—his man, his man. In this way the whole property is sold. And they get out with this. That's all. I have seen so many cases. Then the property division means there is nothing to divide. Everything is sold, and the money was taken by the lawyers as their fees. I have seen so many cases. These real estate men? Real estate? They also. So many times they complicated our men.

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- January 30, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: No, you can..., every right to speak. You are qualified scientist. All doctor, they must agree to hear you, cannot deny.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And our mathematician is very good. He's also got some good artistic ideas. He told me that he started some arts.

Prabhupāda: So he's a mathematician and another (sic:) physist, and you are chemist. So complete science. The pure science is mathematics, physics, and chemistry. So our three Ph.D.s, they are combination of pure science. Nobody can defeat. Mathematics is there, physics is there, chemistry is there. And my sentiment is this, (laughs) I challenge them, "No. Life from life, not matter." So perhaps I challenged first. Or anybody? Then life from life, not from matter?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda did it.

Gargamuni: I think we should make maybe a few plates just like they have shown the scientists, but a few plates of yourself with some quotations challenging these men.

Prabhupāda: Our another challenge is they have never gone to moon planet. (laughs)

Room Conversation -- January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: We don't say; you are saying. We don't say. We say that you must be punished without food. You are dying without food. That is your proper justice. We say that. We are not anxious to this daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. We are not. We give. Whatever we have got, we distribute prasādam. That's all. We are not concerned about their daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. That is not our business. Suppose there are so many persons, they are without food in the hospital. Doctor has prescribed, "No food." What you can do there? Can you show your sympathy? "Oh, so many persons are lying without... Let us give." Then you'll be beaten with shoes.

Room Conversation -- January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Hari-śauri: So then why do you go to the hospital when you're sick? When you're sick, then why do you take medicine and consult doctor? Why not be callous to that, too?

Prabhupāda: Callous means we... Callous means we can take treatment, but we cannot protest against the doctor, that "Why you are not giving me food?" We take treatment. That is saner. If the doctors ask me that "Don't eat," I take the treatment. I don't protest that "Why you are keeping me in starvation?" You are doing that, rascal, that "Why you are keeping me in starvation?" But one who knows things, he doesn't protest. That is Vaiṣṇava way. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇaḥ (SB 10.14.8). "Oh, my Lord, You are keeping me in this tribulation. It is Your great mercy." When Kṛṣṇa keeps me in starvation I take it as mercy. I don't protest. That is Vaiṣṇava. The saner person, when he is, the hospital, he is put into starvation, he takes, "Oh, doctor, you are so merciful you are curing me." And the rascal will protest, "Oh! You are keeping me in starvation?" And other friend comes, "Why you are keeping him...?" They're all rascals, all rascals, cent percent. They do not know what is arrangement in the hospital and they go, poke their nose in which is not their business. They are rascal. One who says like that, "We have done this...," Oh, you are rascal. You cannot do it. You are simply poking your nose where there is no business for you. A Vaiṣṇava will never protest. Tat te 'nukampām. And Kṛṣṇa said, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. He never said that "You become agitated." Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha (BG 2.14). "These things have come and gone, will go.

Room Conversation -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Hari-śauri: "Just to teach you law."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. There was big lawyer. In those days he was earning not less than thirty-thousand per month. Rajbery Ghosh, Doctor. He was Doctor. So in one case he brought so many books in the court, the judge remarked, "Well, Dr. Ghosh, You have brought the whole library?" "Yes, my lord, just to teach you law." (laughs) No, any statement we give, it has to be considered. They cannot neglect. So you can simply put these books, eighty-four books: "This is our statement. You read them. Then give your judgement." How do you think? Did you consult any lawyer?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We're going to do it. It can be done.

Prabhupāda: "It is not brainwash. It is science. You have to know the science." And actually that is the fact. The court case is going on.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: In South Africa also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America they are afraid because the doctors, a huge percentage of the American doctors are Indians.

Brahmānanda: Now they have stopped. No more Indian doctors in America.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They won't give any more doctor degrees to Indians, because they're taking over the whole medical profession.

Prabhupāda: In England also, they prefer Indian medical men.

Hari-śauri: They've done that already. The whole medical profession runs on Indians.

Prabhupāda: They prefer. Public likes Indian medical men because they take more care.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're more intelligent 'cause they know about the soul. They care about the person more.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I know. In England they like Indian doctors. And last time, when I was in London, the Civil Surgeon, he was a Bengali. This Aurobindo's father, he was a medical practitioner. Aurobindo was born in London. He was English-born, yes. His father, Dr. Monmohan Ghosh, he was medical man there. So although he was British-born, he became enemy of the British. (drinks medicine?) Very bad medicine. (laughs)

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means good. I know when I was going to get that operation I didn't want to go to America. I would rather have gotten it here, even though the machines may not have been so modern, the fact that the Indian doctors were here was more reassurance than the Americans. They are very...

Prabhupāda: Careless.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, one girl now... There's a devotee named Madhusūdana. You may remember one of your disciples. His name is Madhusūdana. Anyway, his cousin has joined us in New York. So this boy, he's married to a girl who was the chief nurse for the biggest neurosurgeon in America, who operated on Kennedy, a very big man. So she told us something about the medical profession, some examples. She said the American doctors are extremely cruel.

Prabhupāda: Cruel they must be. They're eating meat, rākṣasas.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She was describing that one time they were all looking at this x-ray of one of the patients who had had severe pain. And inside the x-ray they saw that during the operation they had left the scissors and scalpel in the man's body. And all the doctors were standing there laughing, as if it was a big joke. They thought it was a big joke. For a long time the patient had had much pain in the side, and he did not know why. Then they took x-ray, and they found a scissors and a scalpel left inside, and the doctors thought it was a big joke.

Prabhupāda: Then again operated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, another operation. Then another thing they were describing that there was a patient who was dying. There was no chance of his recovery, but still, in order to get... The man was a big man. So the television was covering because he was an important political figure. So the doctor performed a big brain operation, even though there was no purpose whatsoever, so that he could get advertised on the television as a very important doctor. And at one point he said, "Now bring in the television," and he cut the man's head and did a whole operation for no purpose at all. The person died anyway. But he was given advertisement that he was the most important surgeon. And they talk amongst themselves. She knew all this.

Prabhupāda: They were arranging my brain operation.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Money. Unless he makes devices and talks very overintelligently, how he'll get money? Just like the so-called scientist says and doctor says, big, big jugglery of words, and they get money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have their doctors and psychiatrists now. Just as we are getting armed with so many statements, they are also gathering together their groups of doctors and psychiatrists to all attest to the fact. But they have nothing to say. They're trying to get behind them some men, but the men are not of as much consequence as our people are. But then you see another thing they do is they cause trouble through other processes. For instance, they will audit the accounts, look into the Society's money, and they'll try to...

Prabhupāda: They'll try to give us trouble in so many ways.

Room Conversation -- February 16, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: ...etad anyathā ajñānam. Find out Bhagavad-gītā. This is knowledge. All other things are bogus. Otherwise how could I convince big, big scientists? They are not ordinary men, Doctor, that Svarūpa Dāmodara, one of the first-class scientists. He has got very good degree from Calcutta University, from other university, M.A.C. and other. He is very intelligent boy. He studies science very particularly, means sound knowledge. How he's attached?

Jayapatākā: This is real knowledge.

Prabhupāda: This is real knowledge.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: We have got so many professor friends. There is Dr. Stillson Judah, Dr. Sukla. There are so many.

Ādi-keśava: Dr. Sukla is here in India now.

Prabhupāda: And our doctors also, Ph.D., they can go.

Ādi-keśava: We wanted to have our Ph.D.'s go.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Hm.

Ādi-keśava: Especially I've been speaking with Mādhava in Boston, but Rūpānuga was telling them that they should just stay and write for the journal and not go out and preach. I wanted them to go and speak on our behalf as Ph.D.'s.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is now necessary.

Ādi-keśava: They are eager to do it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Indian man (3): No, if he's...

Prabhupāda: He's not a Vaiṣṇava. He's a bogus man! He wants to establish that Jagabandhu is incarnation of Caitanya. Where he got this authority? And he got the title Doctor and so... Why does he not preach in America? Some of our men say it is bogus, purchased title. You can get such title if you pay money.

Indian man (3): Academically he's very highly qualified, academically.

Prabhupāda: How you know?

Indian man (3): Examiner of Ph.D. and P.R.S.

Prabhupāda: In Calcutta University?

Indian man (3): He was. I don't know...

Prabhupāda: When he was?

Indian man (3): Few years back.

Prabhupāda: Then why he is rejected?

Indian man (3): His terms has expired.

Prabhupāda: Their terms do not expire. Anyway, he has got Ph.D. in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, but he does not know Caitanya philosophy. Otherwise how he said that Jagabandhu is incarnation of Gaura-Nitāi? Or something like that, he said. He does not know. One who does not know what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, how he gets his doctorate title on that philosophy? Even if he has got by some means, but where is the authority to prove that Jagabandhu is the combination of Gaura-Nitāi? No ācārya has said like that—Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura or Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, Viśvanātha Cakravartī.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he knows about, anything about Caitanya, why should he say like that? Bogus temple. By attempting to establish a temple like that, he has diminished his value. And therefore it is doubtful whether he actually obtained this. Now, our Bon Mahārāja also writes "Doctor."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Purchased title. These deprogrammers are doing very active campaign work by getting entry into the schools, the public schools, to speak to the children in the age groups of twelve, between twelve and fifteen, junior high school, high school age. And they're making presentations to them about these different groups like ours, to beware of our groups. To beware of our groups. In other words, it's actually very bad because these children are innocent, and from a very young age now they're being told, "Watch out for the Hare Kṛṣṇas. They will brainwash you." Of course, that makes us even more appealing.

Prabhupāda: That is our advertisement.

Room Conversation about BTG the Moon -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Hari-śauri: Neither have you seen Brahmaloka.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that we hearsay, and you also hearsay. Then were is the difference? I hearsay from Bhāgavata, you hearsay from astronaut. The position is, your position and my..., the same. If you don't believe me, why shall I believe you? You are not in better position. It has been proved that many cheater scientists and many doctors, cheaters. Why shall I believe you?

Hari-śauri: But there are thousands of men working on the space program. There are thousands of men working on the space program.

Prabhupāda: So thousands of men reading our Bhāgavata. No, many.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If numbers is proof, we have more.

Prabhupāda: This is no argument.

Room Conversations -- February 20, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all they admitted in that Voice, that "We thought God is dead. Here Swamiji has brought." They admitted like that. (break) ...wife, she is also coming from very respectable family. Her father, grandfather all... Doctor had big...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Allahabad. Dr. Ghosh.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Director of... (break) So arrange for that. (break) ...part of the country where there is vigorous malaria.

Room Conversations -- February 20, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: No, I was not traveling. The wife was traveling.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His wife?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore doctor became fortunate. He got very good wife.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you were most fortunate.

Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) I think so.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And your wife wasn't so good.

Prabhupāda: Because she was always against Kṛṣṇa... My father said like that, that "You are so fortunate that you don't like your wife. Don't try to marry again."

Room Conversations -- February 20, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many different potions also throughout the day. One time that kavirāja...

Prabhupāda: They say that "Why should you bother so much? You have to take the sweet. Take sugar."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nobody can go through it. It's such trouble. An ordinary person can't do it. Unless you have a servant, you can't take kavirāja's medicine.

Prabhupāda: Just see. The doctor recommended eight tablets at a time.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More than once a day. Many times a day?

Prabhupāda: Twice. Eight tablets.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Modern medicine, they would combine all those in one pill. When you take your massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda, do you find it more relaxing and beneficial if there's no talking going on, or...?

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't matter. (break)

Prabhupāda: For us it is not joke.

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- February 28, 1977, Mayapura:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Seems that we have a good field in medicine, speaking with doctors. It's very interesting. And because they deal with life, so my first question is "What is life?" I just ask them, "What is your concept of life?" And they become very...

Prabhupāda: Concept of life is clear in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is also one of the elements, but superior element. The gross earth, water, air, fire, ether, even mind, intelligence, ego, they are inferior. And there is another superior item. That is living entity. It is clearly said. Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho (BG 7.5). And that is important because that living entity is handling this inferior. Very clear. Just like a good machine. That machine as it is, it is not important. A living entity has handled it. By handling, the machine is prepared, and by handling it is important. So who is superior, this matter or the person who is handling? And it's clear—yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate. It is clear. And similarly, whole machine must be handled by a living creature. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carāca... (BG 9.10). Clear. How you can deny it? Taking this whole cosmic manifestation as machine... It is machine. We admit that. But it is being handled by a living being, the supreme living being. That is God. But they have no intelligence to understand, such a rascal civilization. Practically we are seeing. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. (bird chirping loudly) Stop.

Room Conversation -- March 26, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Who is the chief guest?

Girirāja: His name is Dr. Dattrey.

Karttikeya Mahadevia: He's an (indistinct).

Girirāja: Yeah. He is supposed to be one of the leading doctors in India. Especially of heart, cardiology. So I also thought this would be a good night for Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu to make his presentation, so that this leading doctor can also attend that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- March 26, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: You say we have to go back to Juhu on... They say. (break) This is the center of mass movement.

Girirāja: Dr. Bigelow was also a heart specialist. You had that exchange of letters, this doctor in Canada. So he said that he felt that at the moment of death some particle or some force left the body which was not material and which could be called the soul, and he called upon theologians and scientists to research what is that thing that leaves the body and makes the body become dead.

Prabhupāda: Instead of going on Monday, we shall go on Wednesday.

Room Conversation -- March 26, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: What Dr. Dattrey says, after hearing your lecture?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Many..., some engineers came, and some doctors also came. They wanted us speak in Bombay Hospital. And just now also I got a letter from England from Jagadguru Swami. He said that on our way to the United States we should stop in England. He says that he talked something about Bhaktivedanta Institute in England. He said we should speak in Oxford and Cambridge Universities. He said there is a very good preaching background there. So he invited us to...

Prabhupāda: You will be invited. You stick to your position and train up your assistants and recruit more and more. We shall come out successful. Write books. You can take. Now yesterday Dr. Dattrey, did he say anything?

Room Conversation -- March 26, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Recruit them. And speak in such societies. We have now our prestige and preaching. It will be very nice honor everywhere. So Kṛṣṇa has given you some talent. Utilize it. These rascals are misleading. Although the instruction is there, they are misinterpreting in their own way, misleading themselves and misleading others. They say the name of God. They do not know what is God, although God is explaining Himself. Such a rascal. God is explaining, "Here, I'm God." He is accepted, and they do not... When you ask them what is God: "That we do not know. Our God is (indistinct)." Such things are there. So they have to be convinced that these half-educated leaders cannot make you happy. It is not possible. They do not know the basic principle of life. Take guidance from Kṛṣṇa. That is our movement. You'll be happy. And don't be carried away by the whims. This is an important chance, human life. These motorcars are running, they are running just like the flies come, phut phut phut phut. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, Eleventh Chapter. Blind. Expedite death, that's all. There is no solution. The solution is here, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So recruit first of all. Just like these doctor friends. First of all get some friends.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Bāla-kṛṣṇa told me that we have doctor, medical doctor, M.B.V. He's from Russia. He is going to join us.

Room Conversation -- March 26, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Make them come, make them come. Treat them nicely. Give them good place. In this way increase the number of workers. Then people will, "Oh... They are not religious sentiments. They have got books, they have got scientists, they have got doctors." Is it not? And we can challenge them. "Come on, what is our education, let us test. We are prepared to talk with you like scientists." So you are all here now and... Organize in Bombay. Bombay, the center of Bhaktivedanta Institute.

Room Conversation -- March 26, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: I think also. He is a very kind doctor. Whole family is attentive. Living is... That we have already discussed. Trees also live for many years. That is not wanted. To live for living forever, that is wanted. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). That should be the human endeavor, not this dog race, changing condition, from four legs to four wheels. This logic was never taught, from four legs to four wheels. They are astonished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And anthills. Yes, it's a very unique presentation of the philosophy. They have never heard it so nicely adapted to the modern situation.

Prabhupāda: So they have got farther two days, so I think they will be able to do it. That, my, apartment in Juhu.

Room Conversation -- March 27, 1977, Bombay:

Hari-śauri: This is 1.2. I think that verse is quoted here in the Gītā though.

Prabhupāda: So nice thing. Even little done, you get chance again. The students who are coming, give them nice place, nice food, nice intelligence. Organize Bombay. You will get many enlightened students, professors, doctors. "Come on, live with us."

Room Conversation with Scientists, Svarupa Damodara, and Dr. Sharma -- March 31, 1977, Bombay:

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is one doctor who lives on our land. He wants to work with them in proving that God exists. He has his M.V.B. from Russia.

Prabhupāda: Russia is also purchasing our books. If the scientists do not believe in God, what is the reason?

Dr. Sharma: They just want a valid proof.

Prabhupāda: Direct proof. The other day somebody asked me... Perhaps you were present? No. Logically. The logical proof, common sense, anyone who has got common sense, the logical proof is there. Just like everything is growing from the earth. The earth is giving birth. Earth, water, air, fire. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). Take, for example, water. You dig a pond, and after a few months there will be fishes. So wherefrom the fishes came? If you don't touch even, the fishes will come, and they will grow. So wherefrom the fish came? What is the answer?

Mādhava: The scientists' answer? Well, immediately they would not say evolution, because it takes many billions of years to say evolution.

Prabhupāda: Evolution..., apart from evolution, when I dig a pond, water comes out. You don't touch, after few days, after few months, there will be fishes.

Room Conversation with Scientists, Svarupa Damodara, and Dr. Sharma -- March 31, 1977, Bombay:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Dr. Sharma can help us a lot in Bombay. Because I find that medical institutions, you know, hospitals, is a very good place to speak to the doctors. Because this life, this concept of life, and these bio-medical ethics is very appropriate. So...

Dr. Sharma: Yes, actually, this concept is very timely for our country, Prabhupāda. My feeling is that our country has a special place in the Lord's heart, because He came here several times. And the very fact that after independence, nobody could prevent it again, and you have come, all these things, to stop it now. And I think the thing should start from...

Prabhupāda: At least, I am the first man to try for it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.

Dr. Sharma: And these people, they are very learned in their chosen fields, and they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, and they are really keen to do it with enthusiasm, to turn the tide back.

Prabhupāda: They have sacrificed their lives. They are scientists, they could earn lots of money, but they do not care for it. They have dedicated their lives. In America they could earn lots of money, such a qualified person. But they did not care for money. They care for the truth. That is real brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa does not care for money. Knowledge. Satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). The truth. That is brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation with Scientists, Svarupa Damodara, and Dr. Sharma -- March 31, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we say that the soul is in the heart. So how can we convince the other doctors, for example, of the presence of the soul within the body and especially within the heart?

Prabhupāda: They do not know that the soul is there. Because they have misunderstood. So when the soul goes away, they think their heart has pain. Material cause. They do not know because the soul has left, the heart is not working. They take it on the other way, that because the heart is not working, therefore he's lying down.

Room Conversation -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: People will appreciate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are. He is scholarly.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And doctor

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is he actually a doctor?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We couldn't get to the Kashmir tourist office today.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Never mind.

Morning Talk -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Indian man (Doctor?): I would like to have the history of the present program which is going on. It will be apparent that so much will be there. The same thing is going on.

Prabhupāda: I have no appetite. I cannot digest. This is going on. (break) (doctor has left) ...You have seen the birds, the sparrow, the crows. They are different birds. They have got different movements.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: From the pulse beating, you study how it is beating.

Morning Talk -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: We are not... We have no interest in politics. What interest do we have in this phantasmagoria? We are not so fools. And there are so many people, they are taking part in politics. Is this sane?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the argument I always use when we are preaching to get someone to join. They say "Well, we want to be a doctor or we want to be..." I say there are already so many millions of doctors, so many, but there is only...

Prabhupāda: And doctor is canvassing, "You become my patient."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yesterday that man was canvassing you. That Āyur-veda man.

Prabhupāda: As soon as he wanted history I rejected him. He is not Ayurvedic. And Karttikeya was sorry that I did not give him for one and a half hour.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Karttikeya, the whole time he was very agitated.

Prabhupāda: So everyone who will come I will have to give one and a half hour?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wanted you to stop talking to the reporter and begin talking to the doctor. What good the doctor will do, but the reporter can do so much good.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break) When I say do this, he can do that.

Room Conversation -- April 10, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a difficult treatment for the Westerners. Because they have no self-...

Prabhupāda: They want to be cured immediately. Go to the doctor. "Give me injection, give me tablet, cure me immediately." That is the Western treatment. Immediately stop it. Here also. A man, a worker, he's earning twenty rupees a day, and the doctors also take advantage of this rational. "You want to be treated quickly or let...?" And naturally he will say "Quickly." "Then you have to take injection." Injection means each injection at least five rupees. He may inject water.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They do that sometimes.

Prabhupāda: They do that. This is going on. They do actually, I know. Unnecessarily, little distilled water, and take from him five rupees. If he gives him mixture, he cannot charge from him. But these innocent persons, they have earned. "You want to be treated very quickly or slowly?" He says that "I am earning twenty rupees per day. If required, I will give you so much money. And give me quickly." Everything cheating and... I know. I was in the medical line. Dr. Bose admitted. He was talking with me very freely because I was just like his son. "My dear boy, I sometimes cheat. We are most sinful." He said like that. "As soon as we find some rich person, unnecessarily we harass."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the business of the doctors and the lawyers.

Prabhupāda: Right.

Room Conversation Meeting with Dr. Sharma (from Russia) -- April 17, 1977, Bombay:

Guest (2): He and his wife, both are doctors. They were in U.M. (?) University in Moscow. They got their medical post there. Now he has come back to India for some research work. And my sister, his wife, is still in London. He will be going back in June, and we have requested him to come back to India and have..., serve here. He has a desire to come back.

Prabhupāda: How long you were in Russia?

Dr. Sharma: I was there for six years. Over six years.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Guest (1): He speaks very fluent Russian also.

Prabhupāda: Ah, must speak. I have been also in Moscow. In Moscow, I went there. I was walking in that Red Square. Lenin's tomb is there. I was putting on the National Hotel.

Room Conversation Meeting with Dr. Sharma (from Russia) -- April 17, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That, we give the example.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He is a doctor, and he is stating that he knows for a fact that these geneticists, they are bluffing. Actually they cannot say.

Dr. Sharma: So one has to take the words of the guru.

Prabhupāda: Therefore in our Hindu society there is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, so that everyone knows that "This man is this man's father." That is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. And especially in brāhmaṇa family, if there is no garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, immediately he becomes a śūdra, because cannot give real identity of the father.

Dr. Sharma: It is most unfortunate that in the West and elsewhere, I have found the people with a great interest and enthusiasm maintain a pedigree chart of the Pomeranian and Alsation dog in their house.

Prabhupāda: This is gotra.

Talk with Svarupa Damodara -- April 18, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He is medical doctor, medical field. He can write some articles on especially these problems in biochemistry and the medicinal aspects. One can do a lot.

Prabhupāda: You have seen his small booklet?

Dr. Sharma: I read it.

Prabhupāda: Scientific Basis of...

Dr. Sharma: Yes. It's very interesting. I liked it.

Prabhupāda: So if you translate some of these small books, we can publish.

Dr. Sharma: Knowledgewise, I am a big man. I am myself that mūḍha still. But still I've made up my mind. I'll do my most.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very good qualification, to remain humble and try to do something.

Room Conversation -- April 19, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: This is the... That's all. Bhāgavata is siddhānta-kāraṇa(?), so correct, so accurate, and so nicely composed. Kim anyaiḥ śāstraiḥ. In the beginning there is, kim anyaiḥ śāstraiḥ: "There is no more use of any other śāstra." Śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kim anyaiḥ śāstraiḥ, nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam idam (SB 1.1.3), kim anyaiḥ śāstraiḥ. Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam idam, śrīmad-bhāgavatam. It is meant for the highly qualified, thoughtful philosopher. They are not flowery language. It's fact. Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam idam. So we are trying to give to the world this nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam (SB 1.1.3). Let them take it and take full advantage. Essence of all the Vedic knowledge. If they are intelligent... So how many men required to form a comm...? Is there any rule, Doctor?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Five men is good.

Prabhupāda: So you can give his name. He is Indian. Five name.

Morning Conversation -- April 19, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: From Sylhet. Sylhet is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's place. There is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's forefathers' house, Sylhet. So what talk you had with that doctor?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, his name is Dr. Sir M. S. Thakur, and we had a very interesting talk yesterday, and he's willing to come and stay in the temple for at least a week. He's going to come and stay here for at least a week.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He wanted to learn more about Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Very good. Let him come. Give him good place, and we shall talk.

Morning Conversation -- April 19, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Six thousand dollars, but we are ready to spend fifteen to twenty thousand dollars. Make it nicely, everything. We shall spend. Make worldwide propaganda. And there will be no scarcity of money. Tour. Make extensive tour, especially in Russia. In Russia send this film group, the scientific group, and if the Doctor is seriously our friend, let him translate. And that translation, it shall be good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said it's very good.

Prabhupāda: And the person who is translating, encourage him. Do this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, Harikeśa, we have to reply his letters, so I have noted down to tell him that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Let him translate as many as possible. And make this program. And that twenty thousand dollars should not be touched. It will be simply spent for this propaganda.

Room Conversation -- April 22, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So he was coming daily to see me in my pharmacy. We talked sometimes little intimately, friendly, with his son. So one day we were talking. Dr. Jīva also was attending. So one Muhammadan woman... They're very dirty. So she was passing to go to see doctor, and that... His name was Ser Khan. He belonged to the royal family of Afghanistan. So he was doing like this. So I said, "You hate Muhammadans? She is Muhammadan woman." "Oh, we don't accept Muhammadan. They are (indistinct)." That means Indian Muhammadans are not even accepted by the Muhammadans in other countries.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was a Muhammadan.

Prabhupāda: He was Muhammadan, Afghanistan, very royal family.

Discussions -- May 20-22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: He is the original founder. Automatically he wins. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He recovered from that hernia operation.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, and later on, he did not undergo sur... He thought then doctor... After all, everyone has got sentiment. He thought it that "The doctor has been called to kill me." So he did not undergo the hernia operation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He thought the doctor was paid off to kill him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Conversation Pieces -- May 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Hm. Kṛṣṇa tvadīya-pada-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam adyaiva viśatu me mānasa-rāja-haṁsaḥ (MM 33), prāṇa-prayāṇa... Ordinary dying, kapha-pitta-vāyu: "Ghara ghara ghar," choking and... But in the kīrtana if we die, oh, it is so successfully... Injection, operation... Who needs it? That atmosphere death and kṛṣṇa-kīrtana death? Glorious death. Oxygen gas... (laughs) Dying and so much trouble. Never call. Please accept my request. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, bas, and let me die peacefully. Never be disturbed, call doctor—no. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on chanting. Chanting, hearing, chanting. You have got so much material. Read. Read something from this book. Rāmeśvara, you can read. It is your book.

Rāmeśvara: I'm simply your servant, by your grace, Prabhupāda. This Chapter One of this second volume, "Kaṁsa Sends Akrūra for Kṛṣṇa." "Vṛndāvana was..." (break)

Prabhupāda: As soon as this Indira Gandhi and her son disturbed Vṛndāvana people, within a week... Just see. This is practical. The poor, these bābājīs, they were going to beg, and by force, once, twice, injection. So immediately, after one week...

Rāmeśvara: For sterilization?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is practically... And I was surprised how such a abominable falldown came to Indira Gandhi. It is simply Kṛṣṇa's hand. No politician fallen in such a way in the history. Finished business. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān yoniṣu (BG 16.19). It is simply Kṛṣṇa's hand. They are "This party, that party, that..." But to curb down Indira's power, it was simply by Kṛṣṇa directly. Hm. Go on reading. (break) "Don't worry. I am here." This is Kṛṣṇa. A boy, ten years boy, Kṛṣṇa, He was, "Come on," challenging. This is Kṛṣṇa.

Conversation Pieces -- May 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo. This is our position. We have to select our worker from the worst class of the society, pāpī and tāpī. But, we shall prove, by hari-nāma they become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the movement. You trace the history of everyone. All worst, third class. And they come here. And that is Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. How many Doctor Svarūpa has come? If we speak frankly, (laughter) all from the worst class. Those who were finished. And Kṛṣṇa... It is said, pāpī-tāpī jata chilo. Pāpī and tāpī, they are not first class. They are the tenth class. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo. This is the test of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement, that how many pāpī-tāpīs have been picked up. Brajendra-nandana jei, śaci-suta hoilo sei, balarāma hoilo nitāi. This is Gaura-Nitāi. What is their business? Now, pāpī-tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo. "Bas? This is their business?" Yes, to deliver all the pāpīs and tāpīs. "So how is that?" Tāra sākṣī jagāi and mādhāi. See Jagāi-Mādhāi. It is not imaginary. So we have to deliver all Jagāis and Mādhāis. This is our movement. That is the test of the, of us. It is not sorry for that, but still, they should act like good men.

Discussions -- June 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dr. Ghosh should be one of the witnesses. According to Mr. Sharma, if a doctor witnesses, it's very good, attending physician.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: So what should we do about the clause which appoints the executors?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What does that mean? The people acting to see...

Girirāja: They're responsible to see that the will is carried out.

Rāmeśvara: They'll see that it's registered and it's brought before the...

Prabhupāda: How many executors?

Girirāja: I think he suggested two or three.

Prabhupāda: No, he suggested not less than three, up to seven or eleven.

Conversation with Bhakti-caitanya Swami-New GBC -- June 30, 1977, Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: He said that. He did not like to tell me this. He's a doctor. When he was indisposed, he'll sit down silently for three days, and he will give this quinine, castor oil and... Bhimsen?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Quinine is poisonous, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Quinine is not kept in...

Prabhupāda: Quinine is fever and (indistinct). And he said like that. "I have no..." So why these three?

Śatadhanya: We'll move the bed. He brought the hot water.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It almost seems like Mr. Bose was like a second father to you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. My father's friend.

Letter from Yugoslavia--'Books!' -- June 30, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Lawyer.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Doctors.

Prabhupāda: Doctors. That is the difference.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually Indians are a big threat to these countries.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Conversation -- July 1, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mrs. Singol, she wrote a letter.

Prabhupāda: Doctor.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dr. Singol's wife.

Prabhupāda: His wife?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She wrote you a letter, very feelingful letter.

Prabhupāda: Hm hm. She is very attached.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Want to hear the letter?

Prabhupāda: I'll wait.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right.

Prabhupāda: Or you can read. No harm.

Discussion about Bhu-mandala -- July 5, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: This is acintya for the Māyāvādīs. They say kalpanāyā. These Akhandananda and other Māyāvādīs, they explain Bhāgavata-kalpanāyā. They are making some imagination that "I am God," but they are alleging us, that "You are in illusion." God, as soon as there is some toothache, he goes to the doctor. He's such a rascal hypocrite. There was some heart attack going on, so Akhandananda, immediately he called one of his chief disciples, that Mishra, Jasri, and he was taken to Bombay hospital. And he's God.

Room Conversation With Son (Vrindavan De) -- July 5, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Who?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The karmīs. They don't know what is what. They don't know what is good for them. If they have their choice, they won't immediately talk with a devotee. But we are like the doctors. We don't consider what the patient says. Somehow we have to administer the medicine because we know it will be good for them. There's a letter that just came from Satsvarūpa.

Prabhupāda: Have my keys...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And... Should I bring it? Actually I was going to read it to you later when you asked for some new... He says, "Dear Śrīla Prabhupāda, please accept my humble obeisances at your lotus feet." (break) He says, "In addition to my duties, everything is going nicely." (break)

Prabhupāda: (coughs) These two ślokas are guide in this connection, in Bhāgavata.

tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo

yasmin prati-ślokam abaddhavaty api

nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'ṅkitāni yat

śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti sādhavaḥ

(SB 1.5.11)

Room Conversations -- July 7, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: And his wife takes four bottles of Nax Pomica.(?) If we said that "Dr. Bannerji prescribes Nax Pomica(?) and different (indistinct) to every person," therefore we finished the Nax Pomica(?) bottle very quickly. He was the biggest customer for Nax Pomica, Tincture Nax Pomica.(?) So he... And he was very famous doctor. And Abhinas Chandra Bannerji, he went to Allahabad very poor condition. Then, by medical practice, he became very rich man. I think simply by the mercy of Nax Pomica.(?) So one must know the right way. (coughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How's your cold, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: There is nothing.

Meeting With Governor of Tamil Nadu -- July 31, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One local kavirāja, Ayurvedic doctor.

Governor: I see. I invite you warmly to come to Madras. Stay at Raj Bhavan. And we have the best medical team of Madras government at your disposal. We have got the best doctors in whole South Asia. The physicians are the best government doctors. All two, three doctors, are at the top. People come from Malaysia.

Prabhupāda: Medical men.

Governor: Medical men. Our government hospital. Best people in the government hospital. Best physicians. Very good physicians.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. But I am not very inclined for medical treatment, their injection, operation. (laughs)

Meeting With Governor of Tamil Nadu -- July 31, 1977, Vrndavana:

Governor: No, they won't give you injections. They also... There doctors give yogic treatment also, and nature cure treatment. But... See I have taken that Ravi Shankar Maharaj. You've heard the name in Gujarat, he was one of the very great saintly person, Ravi Shankar Maharaj from Gujarat. I have taken him there. He's stays in my Raj Bhavan, and best doctors attending him, he is improving the health. And we have very good Raj Bhavan, big Raj Bhavan.

Prabhupāda: After all, the thing is that so long we have got this body, the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), you have to accept. This is the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. So the human endeavor should be diverted how to stop this repetition of birth and death. That is the prime instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). Kṛṣṇa says that,

janma karma ca me divyaṁ

yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti...

(BG 4.9)

So our movement is on that platform, how to stop. Our whole Vedic culture is based on that process. When Viśvāmitra Mahārāja went to see Daśaratha about..., Daśaratha Mahārāja inquired from Viśvāmitra, aihistaṁ(?) yat punar-janma-jayāya: "You are great saintly person. You are trying to conquer over birth and death. Is your process going on nicely?" Viśvāmitra inquired Daśaratha Mahārāja about royal activities, government, prosperity, because he was kṣatriya and he was brāhmaṇa. So my request... This, our Gītā philosophy, that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ... (BG 4.13). There must be a class of men, ideal brāhmaṇas; a class of men, ideal kṣatriyas; class of men, ideal vaiśyas; and balance, śūdras, to help. That will make the human society happy.

Room Conversation -- August 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good doctor. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: So meet him again and take particularly everything. So you can go.

Surabhī: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Now I have to go. My train is leaving in about twenty minutes.

Prabhupāda: So you can go.

Surabhī: So I have to go to Mathurā. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: You arrange. In this stage, don't tax me very much. Now I have authorized that will and everything. Follow that. You believe.

Room Conversation -- October 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: And there is sun? Sun also was there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The sunshine? There was sunshine when we arrived, but now it is cloudy and rain. I was wondering, Śrīla Prabhupāda, whether you would like for the kavirāja to be called. I was thinking he might be called tomorrow. Today no need for him to come. Better that you mostly relax today. I was thinking that as you said, better or worse, some husband must be there. (Prabhupāda laughs) So we should have some doctor. Is that all right? It's so nice to be with you when you are in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: So you can do the needful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do the needful?

Prabhupāda: (Prabhupāda's voice is very weak and low now) Yes, you all consider. Is that all right?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In what regard, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: In every regard.

Room Conversation -- October 6, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: His father practices haikin.(?) And the son practices...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Allopathic. I think we're letting ourselves in for trouble when we call these doctors.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: My personal opinion is that when you call these doctors, you're simply letting..., we are simply letting ourselves in for more trouble, because they're not going to study the case very carefully. They're just going to start prescribing. Your case is so delicate that the slightest wrong diagnosis and medicine causes havoc.

Prabhupāda: No, they have good practice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the same thing, as they were recommended, similarly, this kavirāja in Bombay was recommended. We can call him, but...

Prabhupāda: Consult him.

Room Conversation -- October 6, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've lost hope with these doctors, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'll consult if you insist, but I... I mean... I've lost hope.

Prabhupāda: And they know me also very well.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you want me to bring them here?

Prabhupāda: No, he'll bring.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He can bring them here, and then they can examine you.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- October 6, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it is ten past three. You'll leave at four, and they'll get here by 4:35. That's all right. That's a good time. Let us see, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Maybe they can... I mean I'm just not a blind follower of these doctors anymore. Experience makes one... No harm in their coming, especially if they know you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: They know me very well.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes you were doing business with them?

Prabhupāda: No, no. As Vṛndāvana inhabitant. This father came to speak here last year.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Should I send another telegram for Bhakti-caru? I think it might be helpful. Because more than likely, whichever doctors come, they speak Hindi or Bengali. I think it would be helpful to have him here.

Room Conversation -- October 6, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: We are not hesitating to pay, but this mentality...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, exactly. The point is if that a man has this mentality, then how much can we trust him for medicine? It means he's dishonest man. He's becoming dishonest. Still, some husband must be there, you said. We should have a doctor's help. I still believe that. If possible. After all, we are not doctors.

Prabhupāda: No, we are taking the help of doctor, Āyurveda, by this yogendra-rasa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are just beginning that now, of course. Tomorrow you might give it up. Then what will be our position?

Prabhupāda: Don't have widow.(?) (laughter) Kṛṣṇa is ultimate husband.

Room Conversation -- October 10, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Of Allahabad, G. Ghosh.

Dr. Kapoor: G. Ghosh? Is he a doctor? G. Ghosh. There was one Ghosh... He must be very old, isn't he?

Prabhupāda: He is my age.

Dr. Kapoor: Your age. I know G. Ghosh. But would he come? Long distance and old man.

Prabhupāda: But he is my old friend.

Dr. Kapoor: Friend. If he comes, well and good.

Prabhupāda: He recommended when I was in Bombay, he would come to Bombay. And that hospital?

Girirāja: Jhaso.(?)

Prabhupāda: In Jhaso(?) hospital J. P. Narayan was admitted? Again he was sent to foreign country. This is the difficulty. They want up-to-date scientific treatment, which means taking blood, injection, operation, like that.

Room Conversation -- October 10, 1977, Vrndavana:

Dr. Kapoor: Yes, yes. No. You can't stand all that. (break) I think Raj Vaidya Pandit Lakshmi-Narayan. Let him examine. (Bengali) The doctor wouldn't be able to say anything unless he checks of your blood and everything, you see, which is a very troublesome task. But old vaidya, he can feel the pulse and say what exactly is wrong.

Prabhupāda: He can be brought now?

Dr. Kapoor: I can try.

Prabhupāda: So give him...

Girirāja: I'll arrange a car.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...strength even for sitting.

Visit From Allopathic Doctor -- October 10, 1977, Vrndavana:

Doctor: If he agrees, I will suggest. I'll put it in a prescription form and explain to you how.

Prabhupāda: Take it.

Doctor: I think he would not like to receive any injection.

Devotees: No.

Doctor: And I won't advise further. Rather, it will be very cruel if I suggest.

Prabhupāda: Without injection...

Doctor: No. There will be, sir, no injection.

Prabhupāda: It will be very nice. (laughter)

Visit From Allopathic Doctor -- October 10, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Bring Deity prasādam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're bringing, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Doctor: Tablets... He likes syrup or tablets? Tablets will be difficult for swallowing?

Prabhupāda: Tablet I can take.

Visit From Allopathic Doctor -- October 10, 1977, Vrndavana:

Doctor: If he likes, with glucose it is all right. But if he has got a feeling of thirsty, thirsty feeling...

Prabhupāda: But I have no.

Doctor: No thirsty feeling?

Prabhupāda: No desire for water.

Doctor: Then it must not be given. Why? The water is a waste.

Visit From Allopathic Doctor -- October 10, 1977, Vrndavana:

Hari-śauri: This is a record of what Prabhupāda's been taking the last few days. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Did you send telegram to this doctor?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Doctor Ghosh?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Doctor Ghosh. I sent him a letter, I think.

Prabhupāda: Because he is in Allahabad. He is coming from Kodaykanal.

Visit From Allopathic Doctor -- October 10, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of Haṁsadūta's men has been living in Kodaykanal with this Doctor Ghosh. Perhaps he... I'm saying perhaps. I don't know. I had no contact with the man.

Prabhupāda: I said you don't ask him about anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, this Ikṣvāku is crazy. He's crazy. I can find out if that's how he found out, but I suspect that's what it is. He's very difficult, that devotee. I'll be able to find out. I can't... There's no other way he could have possibly come, except through Ikṣvāku.

Prabhupāda: Who is he?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This Ikṣvāku? He's a German devotee who has been living in Kodaykanal with Dr. Ghosh. He's a little crazy.

Visit From Allopathic Doctor -- October 10, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: You can see that letter. He is qualified man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He suggests immediately that Prabhupāda go into a hospital.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Doctor Ghosh's letter, you remember, he suggests that we immediately take you to that Bombay hospital.

Hari-śauri: He wanted to do that last March when he saw you there at Māyāpur.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was his opinion.

Prabhupāda: You can show him bile. Show him the bile.

Room Conversation -- October 13, 1977, Vrndavana:

Purī Mahārāja: (laughs) Dr. Kovoor. He cannot be called as "doctor." How could he be a doctor?

Haṁsadūta: Quack. Quack doctor.

Prabhupāda: There is a story. A bridegroom was selected. So, the other party, bride's party, they inquired how the bridegroom was quite qualified. So they said, "He's a doctor." Then they inquired, "What kind of doctor? Doctor of philosophy, doctor of medicine or...?"

Purī Mahārāja: Doctor which way?

Prabhupāda: So he said, "No, no, no. He's not all these nonsense. He's a big doctor." "What is that?" "Conductor." (laughter)

Room Conversation -- October 13, 1977, Vrndavana:

Purī Mahārāja: He's a big superior doctor, con-doctor. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...con-ductor. Bhakti-caru?

Brahmānanda: Just calling him. He's in the kitchen, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here he is, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (break)

Purī Mahārāja: (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Maybe Purī Mahārāja would like to see the pictures from the Los Angeles Ratha-yātrā. Remember those pictures I showed you in London?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- October 13, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes. That lemon should be preserved, not otherwise.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Utilized. Okay. Keep the lemon. Don't use it for anything else. That's what you have to tell him. Preserve it only for this purpose. That was a very funny joke you told, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about the doctor, con-doctor? Everybody was relishing it.

Prabhupāda: Where is Kīrtanānanda? He is annoyed (avoiding?)? (Tamāla Kṛṣṇa laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Upendra said because he has a night shift sometimes he rests at this time. You want to see him?

Prabhupāda: No.

Room Conversation -- October 13, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Who supported with money? Will they helpful with money, or what sort of support?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually he was speaking in general terms. This Professor Malsanda(?), he's the head of the physiology department in the All-India Institute of Medical Sciences. He's a very religious man. He's also a very well known scholar. He's medical doctor by profession. Also he belongs to many different scientific worldwide organizations, and he feels very strongly that we should have a center in Delhi for the Bhaktivedanta Institute.

Prabhupāda: So money is required.

Room Conversation -- October 13, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: I'll not sit up.

Kīrtanānanda: No. I'm getting a spoon so I can give you this. You don't want to take those pills the other doctor gave you? You don't want to take those pills for your urine?

Prabhupāda: No. That much, warm(?) glucose. That much, and nothing more possible. You don't increase. And decrease. Little in that ladle(?). That's all. And preserve those sweet lemon.

Room Conversation -- October 13, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) And Doctor Stillson, what he has called me? Name? Carmons... What is called?

Hari-śauri: I can't remember, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: It is a common word. (Bengali) I begins with c-h. Spiritual master.

Hari-śauri: I can just find out from Tamāla Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much for your coming.

Room Conversation -- October 13, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) What is that? What is the name of Doctor Stillson's book?

Jayādvaita: J. Stillson Judah.

Prabhupāda: No, no. What is name of the book?

Jayādvaita: Oh. Hare Kṛṣṇa and the Counterculture. He's librarian of the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California. And he's professor of anthropology also.

Prabhupāda: Soviet country, why don't you read...? Where is our Harikeśa?

Guest (1): In Russia. (laughs)

Hari-śauri: That book of Stillson Judah's is in Bombay I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Where is Harikeśa? (Bengali) Why these books you do not keep with us?

Hari-śauri: Generally they do carry them, but it was left...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a copy here also, and I don't see it now. There was a copy on these shelves.

Prabhupāda: Where is Kīrtanānanda Swami? (Bengali)...New Vrindaban scheme... (Bengali)

Room Conversation -- October 13, 1977, Vrndavana:

Kīrtanānanda: ...urine tested this morning, and there was some blood and pus in the urine. So the doctor there, he's prescribed some tablets and things. Do you want?

Prabhupāda: Who is the doctor?

Kīrtanānanda: Bhagatji? Where's Bhagatji?

Hari-śauri: Who was that doctor?

Bhagatji: Dr. Gopal in Rama-Krishna Seva Ashram. Physician. He's an M.D. He is the best doctor in Mathurā district.

Kīrtanānanda: He said it is not... It's just one or two times you'd have to take.

Bhagatji: To check the blood. And I can call him to see you, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Let me taste this.

Room Conversation -- October 13, 1977, Vrndavana:

Bhagatji: This is blood urea to be tested. The other doctor, one of the best doctors, he said that blood urea should be tested because there is pus, and this blood will be defect. And the aluminium also, Prabhupāda... Charvery(?) is also passing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Charvey?(?)

Bhagatji: Two, three.

Kīrtanānanda: What does he need to do this test? More urine?

Bhagatji: He will take some blood.

Prabhupāda: But that is the difficulty.

Hari-śauri: Yes. No blood. Prabhupāda doesn't want a blood test.

Prabhupāda: Let me taste the tablet.

Room Conversation With Svarupa Damodara -- October 15, 1977, Vrndavana:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think about forty. Forty people. Today it will come more. Then Dr. Khorana is coming tomorrow. He's a medical doctor. He's bringing several of his friends. He's also our life member.

Abhirāma: His son is a devotee. Śrīla Prabhupāda knows him, Navīna Kṛṣṇa.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Navīna Kṛṣṇa. He's in Detroit. After the conference, I'm going to have a debate in Delhi, round-table conference with Dr. Kotari, D. S. Kotari and his group.

Prabhupāda: That will be very nice.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He proposed that. That's Indian National Science Academy. But he had some very strange ideas. I'd like to clarify some of the points. Also, these people who are coming, they want us to come and speak to all their universities.

Prabhupāda: That will be very good.

Room Conversation With Dr. Ghosh -- October 16, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: No. In our car he is going or not? How he is going?

Bhavānanda: He's not going yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So car must be ready.

Bhavānanda: Yes. I'll go and make the arrangements. (kīrtana)

Bhagatji: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: Doctor, urine examination?

Bhagatji: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: I want to see doctor... (Bengali) Where is Tamāla?

Girirāja: Call Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Call Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. The doctor said that it should help the blood to go to the heart, so it should be always towards the heart. Prabhupāda started telling him it should be towards the heart.

Room Conversation -- October 18, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The main thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that you get some strength. You were sleeping so much, and you weren't getting any better. The sleeping is necessary, but you shouldn't sacrifice. In order to sleep you should not sacrifice those things which give strength and which take away this disease. You have to get strength, get rid of the disease, and be able to rest nicely. That we have seen, that the kavirāja's medicine is not so effective, neither simply doing without any medicine is so effective. We have not tried allopathic medicine, because within a day or two you always stop it. Whenever you take for one day, then you say, "No more." I think that this... If you want to get better, you have to take some cure. No cure—that is not good. And switching from one thing to the other, that is also not good. Why not follow some series of cure, regular, and stay with it for some time? We're not going to let anything severe be done. That's for sure. And Dr. Ghosh has come very long distance, and this other doctor he is taking the help of is supposed to be very expert doctor. So in such a critical condition, why not take the help? What can be gained by again changing to this Vanamali? Just because there was a little inability for sleep, why should you give up all of the, you know, regimentations which they're prescribing? Just like sometimes...

Prabhupāda: No, they say "You drink this, drink this, drink this."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But Prabhupāda, unless you drink a...

Prabhupāda: No. That's all right, but the drinking forcibly, that is a great botheration.

Room Conversation -- October 18, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Dr. Ghosh said no massage. The other doctor says, "No, what is the harm?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing that we have seen is that when Dr. Ghosh and Dr. Gopal talk, they disagree on a number of points. Someone pointed out that Dr. Ghosh is a little bit old-fashioned. He's not so much up-to-date any more. He's eighty-two years old. Just like he gave recommendation for when you wash your mouth, using hydrogen peroxide. Now, Dr. Gopal stated hydrogen peroxide is very cleansing, but nowadays they make things which are not so strong, and without harmful effects of hydrogen peroxide. But because Dr. Ghosh is a little old-fashioned he's not aware so much of these things.

Prabhupāda: So? They disagree?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Yes, on some points they do.

Prabhupāda: So which is correct?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which is correct? Well, it's obviously a fact... I mean anybody who's gargled with hydrogen peroxide knows that it's very strong. That's the point. It's very strong. In your condition, it's very strong.

Doctor Visit and Conversation -- October 20, 1977, Vrndavana:

Hari-śauri: Do you think he is a good doctor?

Prabhupāda: Who is good? (laughs) Everyone is good; I am bad.

Hari-śauri: Actually you're the best doctor, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because you're the only one who can cure our material diseases all in one. They can make some adjustment, but you can bring complete finish for all material disease.

Prabhupāda: Why they stop kīrtana? (kīrtana starts again)

Hari-śauri: Upendra's brought some ice cream.

Kīrtanānanda: Very cold. We sprinkled a little cardamom on it. Nice?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- October 21, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So how many I shall take?

Bhavānanda: That's five different medicines. We felt yesterday that your... When the doctor came you told us that to take so many medicines is disgusting, and that it bothers your brain. And I know that I personally felt that my position is simply to follow your instruction and command as my very life and soul, not to try and force my idea or my feeling onto Your Divine Grace. So we all of us felt that you had given us so many hints.

Prabhupāda: So medicine kīrtana.

Bhavānanda: Medicine is kīrtana. Enechi auṣadhi māyā. (kīrtana) (break)

Prabhupāda: The sleeping medicine he has given?

Bhavānanda: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's no sleeping medicine.

Room Conversation -- October 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That makara-dhvaja.

Bhavānanda: Yes. We felt that your dream, Śrīla Prabhupāda, was very significant.

Prabhupāda: Doctor treatment is finished. Don't try any... They will simply guess and make huge complication.

Bhavānanda: Here is Bhakti-caru, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So... (Bengali) Rāmānuja-sampradāya kavirāja (Bengali) Doctor treatment, failure.

Bhakti-caru: (Bengali) I was telling that it worked as far as urine was concerned.

Bhavānanda: We're not sure that that was the result of the medicine or the result of liquid intake.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The urine has been clear for five months in a row, so when it got unclear for three days and Prabhupāda wasn't drinking anything, then as soon as he drank it became clear. So I can't conclude that it was the doctor.

Bhakti-caru: (Bengali) (pause)

Prabhupāda: What he has said? Hm?

Bhavānanda: Well, he was stumped as to why you had no appetite, and he said that possibly because you are taking less air in your left lung than in your right lung, there may be some infection in the lung—he said that generally is denoted also by lack of appetite—of some tubercular or pleurisy or pneumatic nature.

Room Conversation -- October 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Bhavānanda: Service at your divine lotus feet is the perfection of life. Our only fear is that Your Divine Grace may become disgusted.

Prabhupāda: No, I have no dis... Doctor treatment failure.

Bhavānanda: Doctor treatment is finished.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Taking these strong medicines without eating is very difficult. Many side effects.

Bhavānanda: Yes. Anyway, we gave him chance. Your Divine Grace gave him a fair chance to...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually the whole thing only began because Dr. Ghosh came. Actually you didn't want Dr. Ghosh to come, but it was too late. We had already sent Lokanātha. So once Dr. Ghosh came, we were obligated to try these allopathic medicines. It was Dr. Ghosh who brought Dr. Gopal. Otherwise, from your own choice, we would not have, you know... We were obligated because of Dr. Ghosh's coming. Naturally... He came so long, such a distance. From the beginning you always don't like the allopathic. You never like it very much.

Prabhupāda: I'll treat myself. Let the kavirājas come. And makara-dhvaja... One after another, they will make the things complicated.

Room Conversation -- October 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think anyone is avoiding, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I was just thinking that that doctor, it seems, doesn't know very well.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So whatever Your Divine Grace instructs us, we are ready to serve.

Prabhupāda: If you move me from here, I will immediately die. I cannot live.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: I cannot live without your company.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we cannot live without your company, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So you stay here, and we'll stay with you.

Prabhupāda: Do that.

Room Conversation -- October 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes they only depend on machines, these medical doctors. That's why he's mentioning about x-ray. Through these machines you cannot tell the correct diagnosis.

Prabhupāda: I have got many experiences in my family life. One servant, Kashiram.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kashiram.

Prabhupāda: Yes his name was Kashiram. So he was howling, howling. So we took him to the hospital, and so many student doctors surrounded. They diagnosed something, strangulation or something like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Strangulation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then they were prepared to surgical operation. Then another experienced doctor came. He said, "Let us wait today." So he was kept in the hospital, and we came back. That Kashiram... Another friend, servant of the neighborhood, and so he said, "Bābājī, he has drunk this."

Room Conversation -- October 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So I said, "Don't delay. So many doctors..." And next morning he came back and said, "The doctor said, 'You are all right, you can go.' "

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was just drunk from liquor.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I had a similar story. It is my own personal experience. In 1974 I came here in India. I got malaria in the United States in summer 1975. Then temperature was very high. I went to the Baptist Hospital in Atlanta. They thought it was a virus, viral infection. They couldn't diagnose. Then they gave some medicine, and then I went. But it started again the following day, and I went to another doctor. He could not diagnose. So they gave me glucose injection, a big bottle, thinking it was a strange viral infection. So about six, seven doctors, they couldn't diagnose for three-four days. Then one day there was a doctor who came from Vietnam, he had some experience in tropical disease. So he thought it might be malarial fever. Then, after that, I was surrounded by many doctors thinking that it was a strange disease before, but they diagnosed... But it was not right. They did all the wrong medicine, thinking it was a viral infection.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- October 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Devotee: My great-uncle, he had tonsillitis, so he went to a friend who was a doctor, and the friend said, "That's all right. We'll operate, and I will not charge you anything." So he went into the hospital, and in the operation the doctor dropped a scalpel, and after that—he was very big, and he became very small, never could eat again. (break)

Prabhupāda: No protection.

Bhavānanda: There's no protection. (break)

Bhakti-caru: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: So? Bhāgavata?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhāgavatam translation? I'll arrange now? (break)

Trivikrama: ...cannot do its plundering business.

Prabhupāda: The sun cannot take life during the Bhāgavata discussion. The more you discuss Bhāgavatam, you keep your life. Who is standing here?

Tripurāri: Now Bharadvāja is chanting.

Room Conversation -- October 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Upendra: Of course, Prabhupāda came from London, and the doctor said he couldn't come.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Upendra: The doctor in London... You came from London, and then you came from Bombay to Vṛndāvana in very weak condition.

Prabhupāda: So weak condition...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be little warmer in Māyāpur. In Māyāpur the weather will be a little warmer. Also the air is fresher in that sense.

Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, here is Tamāla.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (offers obeisances) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So you think over transferring me to Māyāpur.

Room Conversation -- October 31, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: No, no, therefore I am not going to.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, these allopathic doctors have been totally a failure for you. There's no question of going back to them in any case.

Prabhupāda: He has already concluded something and he wants to prove it by x-ray and this and that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And strong medicine he prescribed.

Prabhupāda: Hm. (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He would have created havoc with his testing.

Prabhupāda: I am not going to die, I will remain in his treatment, this kavirāja. The doctors, they create a situation and they have preconceived.

Prabhupada Vigil -- November 1, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I want to suggest that you should not talk too much, because the doctor said conserve yourself. (indistinct) Because tomorrow we're going to be leaving at about two o'clock, two or two-thirty, so you won't get a full night's rest.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are the most important (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Bon Mahārāja you did not see?

Brahmānanda: He didn't see me. I was in the back, and he was in the front. Mr. Jaluka came. I spoke with him, and he asked about you.

Room Conversation -- November 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Brahmānanda: Just translating what the doctor is saying. If there's any risk, Prabhupāda, in traveling, then you shouldn't take that risk. The doctor will come back here next week and then we can see.

Kavirāja: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: In the morning the symptom was that.

Room Conversation -- November 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: As you are saying, I'll go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I mean you guide us. As you say, we will do. There's no... The doctor advises, "Better to remain." His medical opinion is that you should wait here for another ten days.

Prabhupāda: So do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. He said the only reason... He said, "However, if you really feel that you want to go," he says, "I guarantee you that there will be no risk." That he promises. If you want to go, there will not be risk. But from a medical point of view he says, "I advise you to get stronger before making the trip, because it will be easier."

Prabhupāda: So do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that's our program. We're going to wait here ten days. After seven days, doctor is coming back. Kavirāja is coming back. He'll also by that time have arranged so that when he comes he can stay even up to a week if necessary.

Prabhupāda: And I'll get some strength.

Room Conversation -- November 3, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: What happened?

Gaura-govinda: He suffered from fever. He had some fever, high fever. So he fell unconscious. The doctor came and gave some medicine. The fever was checked, but he gave some high-power medicines that affected his brain, and so he couldn't speak. He just collapsed and stayed still. We came to the hospital that night. Doctor tried his best. He gave saline and oxygen. He stayed the whole night, but at the daybreak he passed away, when the morning came, just on the morning, 23rd morning. It was ekādaśī day. That day he passed away. The day Bhāgavata reached. The very moment Bhāgavata reached there, he passed away.

Prabhupāda: Doctor gives treatment, not reliable. They make experiment.

Room Conversation -- November 3, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: We are waiting, but in case. (Tamāla Kṛṣṇa laughs)

Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Āyurveda doctor was telling that one great factor is your willpower. That's very important.

Prabhupāda: I am losing my willpower, because practically I see that I am becoming more and more weak.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said you're losing your willpower?

Bhakti-caru: Don't you think there has been a slight improvement, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Over last few days there has been a little improvement?

Prabhupāda: What is that improvement?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the improvement?

Bhakti-caru: Your intake has increased. Your voice sounds stronger than before.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) What you will do with the voice?

Bhakti-caru: That's a sign of strength.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why don't you consider. In case it is not successful... Upāyān cintayet prajñā apāyān ca cintayet(?). Two things side by side: success or failure. In case it is failure, then what you'll do? You cannot guarantee anything success. Maybe success, maybe failure. If kavirāja's suggestion, if it becomes success, that's very good.

Room Conversation -- November 3, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: What does he say? They will kill?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I said supposing someone threatens us with our life, that "We will kill you if you don't let us take your Guru Mahārāja to the hospital," still, we will not let them take you. Your order is our business to follow, even at the risk of our life. So we are not going to take you to the hospital under any condition. Neither... Not only is it your order, but we also see absolutely no benefit from these hospitals. Your order is sufficient, but apart from that, also, from our own limited intelligence, we also see that the hospitals are condemned. These doctors are blind, these allopathic doctors.

Prabhupāda: That is my only request, that at the last stage don't torture me and put to death. So I am not eating anything, and if we chant, by batches chant, I'll hear.

Room Conversation -- November 4, 1977, Vrndavana:

Pañca-draviḍa: I like this doctor too, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because he was respectful to you.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only to Prabhupāda. They're always respectful to Prabhupāda. But that he was respectful to the devotees. That was the sign that actually he was respectful to Prabhupāda, because many of them, they show respect to Śrīla Prabhupāda, but they don't respect the devotees, which means they don't really respect what Śrīla Prabhupāda has done. He had a very good appreciation. (pause)

Prabhupāda: I had some stool.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Earlier today. That also, I see by the writing, was good color. Actually that's a good sign, that it's being passed naturally, without any artificial means. You may be feeling relief from that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The stool which I was proposing came out by juice.

Room Conversation -- November 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Bhavānanda: We will all sit down and discuss the different arrangements that have to be made, plans that have to be made. It's a very nice idea. Real sannyāsa life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mm. You have tried doctor, kavirāja, medicine, everything. Everything has failed. Now suppose I am taking the risk of death, what is wrong? When the..., I am dead you go India, within India, you go and bring the body either in Māyāpur or Vṛndāvana. Māyāpur the land is already there. Vṛndāvana I think on the gate side, that's all. That's wherever you like you'll do.

Room Conversation -- November 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Girirāja: Because, I mean, I don't have any faith in the doctors or their treatments because they're never working and ultimately it depends on Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. He can exercise His will in any condition and you know, as you say, that if you go out and if you recover then it's very good. And even otherwise, I mean if that is the decision of Lord Kṛṣṇa, then this is a very glorious way. (pause)

Prabhupāda: All seriously consider this submission and let me go. (end)

Room Conversation -- November 10, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Hm. That will continue.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if the treatment is continuing, if the treatment is working, why not continue it under the guidance of this kavirāja for some time? His point is this. This is what I've seen, Śrīla Prabhupāda, being your secretary all these months, that whenever you took milk you would get cough. For the first time I see there's no cough coming. Another problem, you couldn't pass urine. Now there's double the amount of urine. Another thing, you couldn't pass stool. Now it comes normally. At least it comes without any artificial means. So the one thing that has not yet come is strength, and kavirāja is suggesting what you yourself had always said, "If I can drink milk, I will get stronger." So if the kavirāja's treatment... To my feeling it has worked. At least symptoms... The symptoms have been better under his treatment than any doctor so far.

Prabhupāda: That will work.

Room Conversation -- November 10, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the idea is that... According to him... I mean, obviously we're all conditioned, and... I mean, he's not claiming not to be a conditioned soul either, but according to him, going on this bullock cart is a suicide. He said within an hour or two hours, the bouncing and jumbling of the bullock cart will cause a heart attack. Just like you were having heart..., a little heart spasm the other day, just laying in bed two days ago. He says this going in a bullock cart, up and down, within one, two hours it can cause heart attack. So as his treatment has been better at least than any other doctor, and certain symptoms have improved, why are we giving up his advice? If you say his advice is wrong, then there's no comment, but all along, his advice seems to have been more accurate than any other doctors that we've had. I mean we who are closely around you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, your servants, secretary, our opinion of him is far superior than our opinion of any of these others. I see that he's able to take care of one symptom after another somewhat successfully. He's able to deal with these problems. He can deal with the problem of not enough urine...

Prabhupāda: That I know.