Guest (2): We believe God has form.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But, then next question will be "What is the form?"
Guest (2): We believe in a man, form of a man, flesh and bone, glorified and perfected.
Prabhupāda: So you believe that man is God?
Guest (2): Not man is God.
Prabhupāda: Then? God is like man. You mean to say the form of God is like man?
Guru-kṛpā: No, flesh and bone.
Guest (2): Flesh and bone, glorified and perfected.
Guru-kṛpā: Matter. God has a material body.
Guest (2): Of glory and perfection.
Prabhupāda: No, no, how do you glorify the flesh and bone? It is very hard? It is very nice to eat? Is that glorification?
Guest (2): It's not difficult, I don't.... My feeling.... God...
Prabhupāda: You don't bring your feeling. I mean to say, you must bring scriptural order. How do you glorify flesh and bone?
Guest (2): Well, Christ brought that about in the resurrection, when he was resurrected.
Prabhupāda: How do you say? Practically say that how you glorify a lump of flesh and piece of bone? That is my question. What is the glorification of a lump of flesh and a piece of bone?
Guest (2): God can do it. That's all I can say.
Prabhupāda: You cannot do it. Can?
Guest (2): I cannot.
Prabhupāda: Then?
Guest (2): But God can.
Prabhupāda: Then we do not...
Devotee (4): The question is, "How can we glorify God if He's made of flesh and bone?"
Guest (2): How can we glorify God?
Guest (4): There's a little bit of communication gap here. You don't quite understand our thoughts, and we...
Guru-kṛpā: We understand. He just asked you.
Guest (2): And we don't quite understand yours.
Guru-kṛpā: He asked you, how do you worship a piece of flesh and piece of bone?
Guest (2): It's a piece of glorified flesh and a piece of glorified bone.
Guru-kṛpā: How is flesh glorified?
Guest (2): It's perfect.
Guru-kṛpā: Flesh means material, temporary, imperfect.
Guest (2): I'm not perfect. This is not temporary. ∑
Prabhupāda: So you bring some flesh from slaughterhouse and glorify it.
Guest (2): Could I ask a question? I was told, if I'm not right, that down there in a section of your temple you worship the workmanship of flesh. A man made it.
Prabhupāda: We never do that. Who told you? Who is the rascal?
Guest (2): Well, it was one of your followers.
Guru-kṛpā: He's interpreting that to be the Deity.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guru-kṛpā: That is his interpretation of the Deity.
Prabhupāda: Of Deity?
Guru-kṛpā: That is his interpretation of what is the Deity, that it is man-made, matter.
Guest (2): Is it?
Prabhupāda: You do think that, that the form of God is man-made?
Guest (2): Well, all I can.... I just.... That's my feeling.
Prabhupāda: That may be your feeling, but that does not mean that is our feeling.
Guest (2): Well, okay. Your feeling does not mean that our feeling is wrong.
Prabhupāda: No, no, we don't say. I am simply asking that how do you glorify flesh and bone? I do not know. I am asking you.
Guest (2): I don't know. God knows, is what I'm saying.
Prabhupāda: How is that? You do not know your system of glorification?
Guest (2): Well, glorification comes...
Prabhupāda: I am asking—I am a layman—that you say "glorified flesh and bone," but you say, "I don't know."
Guest (4): Can I ask a question?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (4): Do you consider.... Is it your Deity? Do you consider that glorified?
Prabhupāda: No, the Deity is the form of the Lord, but when you say, "the bone and flesh," so how we can accept as Deity?
Guest (4): Now, you say that the Deity is the form of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (4): Now you've also...
Prabhupāda: Also here is. Here is the Deity.
Guest (2): No, that's an angel called Moronai.
Prabhupāda: "Angel," but you cannot dishonor him.
Guest (2): It's in honor of him.
Prabhupāda: You honor him.
Guest (2): No.
Prabhupāda: Then why you put this?
Guest (4): It's just a picture.
Prabhupāda: Oh, you don't honor him.
Guest (4): Don't honor him.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of picture? (laughter)
Guest (4): Could I ask you another question? Could I ask you another question? You've been hitting on some of the Ten Commandments tonight like "Thou shall not kill." Now, if you believe the Ten Commandments like that, it also says in there that you shouldn't worship idols, bow down to idols.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we don't worship idol. We worship God.
Guest (2): Well, we just have a.... We don't need to discuss.
Prabhupāda: Just like here is the picture of God. As you say, this picture is not important, but we say it is important because it is picture of God. Because it is important, therefore you have given the picture.
Guest (3): Well, we say that that picture is important because it's in commemoration or something of...
Prabhupāda: Anyway, you offer some honor. Otherwise why do you give this picture?
Guest (2): Honor, not worship.
Guru-kṛpā: They put this on the top of their temples.
Guest (2): On one, two of them.
Guru-kṛpā: I have seen in Salt Lake City.
Guest (2): Salt Lake City and...
Prabhupāda: No, no, anywhere, top of.... Here you are giving a particular picture. That means...
Guru-kṛpā: Gold and silver.
Guest (2): That's right.
Prabhupāda: Stop. That means you have got respect.
Guest (2): We have respect. We do not worship.
Prabhupāda: That means that respect is partial. Our process is whomever we respect, we worship him. That is more perfect.
Guest (2): Well, all right. That's fine.
Prabhupāda: That is perfection. If you respect somebody you must worship him. Just like.... Nowadays it has become a fashion. I don't.... That is European fashion, that you respect some gentleman, political or social, who has done good service to your country, but you keep him in a public park and the crows are passing stool on his head.
Hari-śauri: Make a statue.
Prabhupāda: Statue.
Hari-śauri: If you want to glorify some great personality.
Prabhupāda: But we, if we keep that statue in a temple, is it not more respectful?
Guest (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: If I expose the statue on the open field and the crows and birds are passing stool on his head and it is going down his mouth, is it respectful? Do you think it is respectful?
Guest (2): Probably not.
Prabhupāda: So if that statue is kept in a temple and you dress, you garland, you offer food, is it not more respectful?
Guest (2): Offer food to an idol?
Hari-śauri: It's not an idol. This is a point Prabhupāda is making.
Prabhupāda: The point is how to offer respect, that if you respect a person, so if you expose this form of the person on the public park, giving the crows chance to pass stool on his head, that is more respectful? Or if you keep that statue in a temple and daily dress him and garland him and offer him food, that is more respectful? Which is more respectful? You are doing the same thing, but you are exposing to the stool of birds and crows.
Guest (2): No, see, you have a misunderstanding of the representation...
Prabhupāda: No misunderstanding. It is a common sense that if you have got respect for a person, instead of installing his form—either it is statue or stone, it doesn't matter—keeping it outside and giving chance the bird to pass stool on his head, if you keep that statue in a nice place, which is more respectful? That is my question. It is a common sense. If you have got respect for a person.... You have installed the statue. Don't call Deity. Statue. So which is more respectful, to keep him exposed on the open field or to keep him in a temple?
Guest (2): Well, I think if I was looking at it in your point of view, it would be more respectful to put him inside.
Prabhupāda: That's the.... That is the point.
Guest (4): That's your point of view, not ours.
Prabhupāda: Then? That is your.... I do not know what is your point of view, that you expose this to the open air and the birds pass stool on it and you still...
Guest (2): It is simply a workmanship of man to make the building maybe more...
Prabhupāda: I am just talking on the practical point of view. Which is more respectful? Apart from other points, if we actually offer somebody respect, then you must give him proper respect.
Guest (2): But, see, we do not see Moronai in that.... Moronai does not reside...
Prabhupāda: You do not see that the crows passing stool? You do not see it?
Guest (2): He might. He might do something on it. But he's not doing it on Moronai.
Prabhupāda: Suppose your father's statue is there, and crow passing on the nose stool. You don't feel that "My father's statue is..."
Guest (2): Well, I don't think that it was done on Moronai because Moronai is not in that statue.
Prabhupāda: No, no, Moronai, anyone. I am not.... But there are so many statues, so many statues in the open field, and they are exposed to the birds for passing stool. Do you think it is more respectful than one keeping the same statue in a nice sacred temple and worshiping?
Guest (2): Yes, it's nice. They should.
Prabhupāda: So you criticize the person who is keeping the statue within a temple, "the heathen worship, idol worship," and you keep your father's statue exposed for passing stool on his head.
Guest (4): You know, if you're going to liken it unto that, I can also liken it unto your statues down here in your temple...
Prabhupāda: No, take it as statue, but where is good sense, to keep a statue within a temple or to keep it open field for passing stool by the birds?
Guest (4): Okay, here is some of my good sense. You've got your statues in your temple, and I notice there were a lot of flies in there the other night crawling all over it and doing their, whatever they do.
Prabhupāda: So do you mean a fly coming and crow passing stool is the same thing? Very good sense.
Guest (3): Well, flies leave mess.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually, it was painful to see the flies.
Devotee (4): That's why they have the whisk you see. We try to whisk the flies away.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You can try as much as possible...
Prabhupāda: It is very good reason that, "Because the flies cannot be checked, and the crows should be allowed to pass stool?" At least you stop the crows. If you cannot stop the flies, but you can stop the crows. We have done that. We don't allow the crows to come.
Guest (2): That's good. That's very good. We have taken a lot of your time, Your Grace, and we are very honored and thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: No, we are talking frankly. That's nice. Our point is that.... That is our philosophy, that if we want to be God conscious, we must abide by His order, just like here it is very nicely written. I very much appreciate this thing. But we must practically do that. And what is that? "Again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God." Now, it is conditional. "You have come to the knowledge of the glory of..." Now, what is that knowledge, glory of God?
Guest (2): Well, that is to know that He lives and that He loves you, and that one day you can live with Him again.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. Very good.
Guest (2): And when you have that knowledge, I think that is...
Prabhupāda: That is more explicitly explained, as I was explaining, that you feel the presence of God every time, as in the Bhagavad-gītā is said that when you are drinking water you immediately glorify God, "Oh, God has created this water so tasteful. It is quenching my thirst."
Guest (2): Exactly.
Prabhupāda: How it is easy?
Guest (2): Could I read you something out of that?
Prabhupāda: No, no, I can understand. The things are all right. Things are all right.
Guest (2): It's on the other side of the page and it talks about that.
Prabhupāda: But I am giving you the process. You have written, "the glory of God," and I am giving you the process how to glorify God.
Guest (2): Oh, thank you.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the process. You are drinking water, and "Oh, how Kṛṣṇa, God, is so glorified. I was so much thirsty, and just drinking this water, this is quenching my thirst." This is glorification.
Guest (2): I like that. That's good. I like that.
Prabhupāda: So that is the difference. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means know how to glorify God, not theoretical-practical. Here is practically example. Everyone drinks water, and while drinking water he can glorify thousand times. That we are teaching. Prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. As soon as you see sunlight, "Oh, we are suffering for want of sunlight. Here is God's glory. He has sent the sunlight." This is practical. So one must know how to glorify God practically. Then his life is successful. God is always glorious. There is no doubt about it. But for us, how to glorify God.... Similarly, when we worship the Deity, here is God. Just offer Him flower. Just offer Him dress. That is love.
Guest (2): Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Every item, there is practical.
Guest (2): We think that also to glorify God is to obey His...
Prabhupāda: You think but you see also practically that how these people are practically doing.
Guest (2): Excuse my manner of speech. I've come to know that to glorify God and that is to obey His will and do His will.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the.... So that is the order in our Bhagavad-gītā. The first order is man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. So "Always think of Me." And He is giving the process how to think of Him. Not that He simply leaves you that "Think of Me," but He is giving practical way. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya BG 7.8 . "Now, when you drink water you can think of Me. When you see the sunshine you can think of Me. When you see the moonshine you can.... When there is sound you can think of Me." In this way there is list. If you time, I can explain that list. Have you got time? Bring me that...
Guest (2): Well, have you got...
Prabhupāda: All right. So practical, that how to think of God, how to glorify Him, that there must be some practical life. That we are teaching, because everything is glorification of God. We cannot manufacture the sunshine. Therefore sunshine, it is glorification of God. We cannot manufacture the moonshine; therefore moonshine is glorification of God. So in this way you have to practically learn how to glorify God. Then life will be very nice. That we are teaching. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you should.... So if you like, you can take this book also.
Guest (2): Could we have an autograph of that?
Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. They want you to sign it, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Guest (2): How much does one of these cost?
Guest (3): Could we have two?
Devotee (4): Sure.