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Divide (Conversations 1968 - 1975)

Conversations and Morning Walks

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Interview -- February 1, 1968, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Sannyā... Yes, brahmacārī: b-r-a-h-m-a-c-h-a-r-y, this is brahmacārī. Then gṛhastha: g-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha. H-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha. G-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a. Is that clear? Gṛhastha. Then vānaprastha: v-a-n-a-p-r-a-s-t-h-a, vānaprastha. Then sannyāsī: s-n-n-y-a-s-i, sannyāsī. Four divisions. These four divisions, and there are other four orders of social system. That is according to work, division according to work and quality. Just like the brāhmaṇas, b-r-a-h-m-a-i-n-s, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of the society. The kṣatriyas, k-s-h-a-t-r-y-a-s, kṣatriyas. Kṣatriyas means persons who are interested in politics, in the management of the country, political affairs. They are called kṣatriyas. Similarly, there is the vaiśyas, v-a-i-s-y-a-s. Vaiśyas means the mercantile, productive class. Those who are engaged in producing grains or trade, milk, and in industry. Of course, industry, artisans, they are called, artists, śūdras. Anyway, any person engaged in producing for the needs of the society, they are called vaiśyas. And the worker class is called śūdra. So according to Vedic system, these are eight divisions. Unless the human society is divided into these eight divisions in terms of material and spiritual progress of life, that is not accepted as human society.

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). "I have created the four divisions of caste." It is not exactly caste; section, varṇa. So how you can stop? It is natural. So Bhāgavata recommends, Suta Gosvāmī is addressing, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. This system of sectional division, this is... "He is brāhmaṇa, he is kṣatriya, he is vaiśya, he is śūdra, he is brahmacārī, he is householder, he is vānaprastha, he is sannyāsī." Or sub-section. "He is potter, he is washerman, he is this and that." You may divide it or not, this section will be there in every society. So Bhāgavata says that "You may be situated in any section. It doesn't matter." Either you be a kṣatriya or a brāhmaṇa or a potter or a washerman or whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. Everyone should be satisfied by his occupation. But how one gets successful by his occupation? He hasn't got to change the occupation. In the material world one has to change his occupation for certain kind of success. Suppose if you are a potter. Now, if you want to become engineer, so you have to change your occupation as potter. But in the spiritual world you haven't got to change your position, and still, you get success, spiritual life.

Interview -- September 24, 1968, Seattle:

Prabhupāda: So far Hindu religion is concerned, it is a very broad thinking. The Hindu religion, Vedic religion, is divided into two kinds of philosophers. One kinds of philosopher is the impersonalist. They take the Absolute Truth as impersonal, all-pervading impersonal. And the another philosophers, they take that the Supreme Absolute Truth is person. The impersonal feature is one of the features of that person, but ultimately he is person. So without person there cannot be any question of love. Therefore the section who believes in person... Not believing, they know actually what He is, and there is method how to love that person. The example is given: just like the sun and the sunshine and the predominating Deity in the sun globe, similarly, one who comes to the light, he first of all sees the sunshine. That is impersonal. Then, if he goes further, if he is able to go to the sun planet, that is localized. And if he can enter into the sun planet and see the predominating deity there, then he is a person. So this is a vast science. People are too much engrossed with material activities. They do not try to understand actually what is the position of Absolute Truth, what is the position of the soul. Practically in the present day they are more or less animalistic.

Interview with LA Times Reporter About Moon Trip -- December 26, 1968, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just try to understand, the inhabitants of India were called by the Muhammadans from Persia and other places, "Hindus." "Hindus" means the resident on the other side of the River Indus. You have heard the name of River Indus. So they cannot pronounce it Indus, they say "Hindus." From "Hindus," it has become "Hindu." So actually the residents of India were called "Hindus." And generally, at least in, say, three thousand years ago, all the inhabitants of India were strictly followers of Vedic principles. After the advent of Lord Buddha, a different religious system developed. Otherwise, before Lord Buddha, there was all the... Not only in India, in other parts of the world. They were followers of Vedic principles. So in that sense, you can say if followers of Vedic principles are called Hindus, then before Lord Buddha, everyone was Hindu all over the world. Not that particular part of India. So far we have got historical reference from Mahābhārata, Indo-European stock, they are also Hindus, the so-called Hindus, followers of Vedic principles. Yes. Gradually, they deviated. Just like recently there is division of Pakistan and India. Twenty years before, this Pakistan was part of India. Now, these Muhammadans, they did not come from outside. They changed their faith from Hindus to Muhammadans. Now they divided their property. Similarly, actually the whole planet was called Bhārata-varṣa. Gradually, people deviated from Vedic principles or imitated something else and they became different.

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Radio Interview -- February 12, 1969, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes...

Interviewer: I doubt if that is your dividing line.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Simply becoming non-intoxicated does not mean that he is a very good man. That I admit.

Interviewer: Does the method include meditation? What... How do you go about this process?

Prabhupāda: Our process is... It is also meditation. But as you understand by meditation, that concentrating the mind upon some super subject matter, the same thing is there, but we don't try to concentrate the mind artificially. But our, this chanting process immediately attracts the mind. Our process is... Just like Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. We chant it in melodious song. So mind is attracted, and we try to hear the sound. That means my mind and my ear is compact in that thought. Therefore it is practical meditation.

Room Conversation -- April 11, 1969, New York:

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can... Because... Have you seen how the... You have no experience here in your country. Have you got any experience? But in India we have got experience how in the morning the cowboy takes some food from the mother and with the cows he goes to the field. The cows are let loose on the grazing ground. They are enjoying, and this cowboy is sometimes singing. The flute, Kṛṣṇa's flute is because He is cowboy. The cowboys still play in that flute. In India you'll find. Because the cows are let... They are doing their own work, and what this boy will do? They are playing. There are many cowherds boys, they are playing. Sometimes playing on flutes, sometimes sporting, sometimes eating. So Kṛṣṇa was exactly doing like that. All the cowboy friend went with Him. Kṛṣṇa was, of course, a very rich man's son. His father was very rich. So He used to take with Him very nice foodstuff, lugdoo, kacaurī. And other, His poor friends, they were taking capātīs, dry capātīs. (laughs) So they were enjoying, dividing, "Your food, my food, his food."

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 11, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: From economic point of view, if one man has got a cow and four acres of land, he has no economic problem. That we want to start. He can independently live any part of the world. Simply he must (have) one cow and four acres of land. Let the people be divided with four acres of land and a cow, there will be no economic question. All the factories will be closed.

Allen Ginsberg: Four acres, you think?

Prabhupāda: Four acres.

Allen Ginsberg: Maybe.

Prabhupāda: That I am instructing Kīrtanānanda, to show this example in New Vrindaban.

Meeting with Devotees -- June 9, 1969, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa ara saba bhṛtya (CC Adi 5.142). (baby making noises) (aside:) He will disturb. Īśvara. Īśvara means master or the controller. Actually only Kṛṣṇa is master. Even Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, or incarnation of Viṣṇu, all of them are, in one sense, even Rādhārāṇī, all are servants. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa ara saba bhṛtya. So in that sense, in this New Vrindaban the master is Kṛṣṇa, and we are all servants. But there are division of duties of the servants, and they should discharge. Just like in our propagation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there are certain duties entrusted to certain devotee, and if he faithfully carries out that duty, that is his perfection. The spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa, and the duty allotted by him to a certain person, that should be his execution of spiritual duties. So this New Vrindaban, master is Kṛṣṇa. Now we should specifically divide duties amongst ourselves and discharge such duties faithfully. Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, as you are growing up to now, the system and the prescription is very nicely being conducted. And this will help us more and more progress. So in this meeting I think we should allot different kinds of duties to different persons and execute. So you say something. (break) ...temple. I don't think it can take more than two hours.

Room Conversation With John Lennon, Yoko Ono, and George Harrison -- September 11, 1969, London, At Tittenhurst:

Prabhupāda: "This is my India," "This is my Germany," "This is my China." No. Everything belongs to God, Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-loka. Not only on this planet. We have divided this planet in so many states. Actually this planet was not divided. From the history of Mahābhārata we understand. This planet, there was only one king, one emperor, in India, Hastinapur. Even up to five thousand years ago, there was only one king, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, one flag. And he came out for touring over his kingdom, and he found somebody near Sindh, a black man killing a cow. And he immediately arrested him: "Oh, in my kingdom you are killing cow?" So actually the whole planet was under one flag, one suzerainty. Gradually it has become small, small, small, small, small. Just like in our, very recently, twenty years ago, India became divided, Pakistan and Hindustan. Actually India was one, but we see now it is Pakistan. And some day another "stan" will be divided. So this is going on. So sarva-loka, in all planets, all the planets, actually that is God's place. Nobody's place. We come here empty-handed; we go empty-handed. How we can claim?

Discussion with BTG Staff -- December 24, 1969, Boston:

Hayagrīva: It's all your vibration.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they should be divided into different names. (laughter) Just like...

Hayagrīva: I have though of doing Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī's Brahma-saṁhitā. Do you think we could serialize it maybe in three or four Back to Godheads? Or could we print it ourselves in a little pamphlet? Or which do you think would be better?

Prabhupāda: No, if you publish in Back to Godhead, then by portion, similarly, three, four pages. That's all, continually, Bhaktisiddhānta's... So when there will be articles sorted, first Guru Mahārāja's, Bhaktisiddhānta's, then mine. Like that. Yes.

Hayagrīva: Yes. Do you think it would be a good...

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: ...your devatā finished. But your relationship with Kṛṣṇa will never finish-nityo nityānāṁ—because you are nitya, Kṛṣṇa is nitya. That relationship, we have to reestablish that relation. That is the function of the human body. If you are simply busy with this temporary nature, then you are losing time. The temporary relationship will... Just like I came here; now, tomorrow I am going. So, say, for fortnight the relation was there. Now you'll have another relation. Similarly, after this body I do not know what relation, what father, mother, I will get and what relation will be established. What community will be established I do not know. And then I will forget. Now those who are Indian, but suppose in his last birth he was Chinaman. He has forgotten. Now he's fighting for India's cause. If the Chinaman is fighting for China's cause. This is disease. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). We are ready to serve all the dayitas(?), but eternal servitude is Kṛṣṇa. That we have to establish. Then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). Then, after leaving this body, he has no more to accept this material body and create another society, another family, another relationship, another atmosphere. So because we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, in Kṛṣṇa society, therefore we are dividing.

Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have to organize. First of all let us publish in one city, big city like New York, like London, yes, Bombay, Tokyo. Big cities, world's big cities. In India only two cities are big: Calcutta, and Bombay, important. If you publish simultaneously, Calcutta... Delhi is given importance due to capital; otherwise not important as big city, as Bombay and Calcutta. Delhi, without government offices it is a dead city. Just like Washington. What is the value of Washington? It is nothing. Simply because it is headquarters of the President, it has got importance. Similarly, Delhi is that. Otherwise it is not important. But Calcutta, Bombay, is really important city in India, big business, port, all rich men, every kind of, all cultural, everything—Calcutta, and Bombay. Originally only Calcutta, now Bombay also. Because the Britishers, they made Calcutta capital. And Calcutta was very, very important city. But these Calcutta men, they create sometimes situation, very complicated. So once in 1905 the same situation was there, politically. Sir Surendranath Bannerjee made, Surendranath Bannerjee's movement, partition of Bengal. Lord Collier, he wanted to divide Bengal, made it East Bengal and West Bengal.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: That is stated, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age practically all men will be śūdras." That is... That is predicted. But if there are simply śūdras, then the social order will be destroyed. You... Just like in spite of your state of śūdras, a brāhmaṇa is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may... You may belong for the time being to the śūdra class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the śūdras to become brāhmaṇa, some of the śūdras to become kṣatriyas. You cannot depend on the śūdras. Then there will be chaos. Neither you can depend only on brāhmaṇa. Just like to fulfill the necessities of your body there must be a portion called the brain, there must be a portion called the arms, there must be a portion called the stomach, or the belly, and there must be a portion which is called the leg.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that...

Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age?

Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. Suppose if you are a kṣatriya, you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field.

Dr. Singh: We go to work in the office, which is equally hard, I can assure you. (laughs) We go from morning till evening. I wish I could go to the field, in fact.

Prabhupāda: You cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class, manager class. They cannot do without it. It must be there. Someone must be their manager. So this division of the society... Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions—the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation with the GBC -- May 25, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Make that one zone. Then next zone?

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: First of all divide the whole world. It doesn't matter who goes where but...

Devotee: India, Pakistan, (indistinct discussion), Bangladesh, (indistinct) China. Then we have the Mediterranean zone.

Prabhupāda: China, China goes to the...

Devotee: Southeast Asia?

Śyāmasundara: Far east.

Prabhupāda: Where is Japan?

Conversation with the GBC -- May 25, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Now?

Devotee: Still. We linked China with Hong Kong and put it with Southeast Asia. Peking, Peking is much closer to Japan.

Prabhupāda: Divide the whole world into twelve parts. That is first.

Devotee: (indistinct-devotees converse in background for some time on map and countries)

Prabhupāda: Africa is one.

Devotee: Yes. (indistinct—more background discussion on map and countries)

Prabhupāda: Gradually this GBC, they can take assistants to help them. (indistinct) One change, Toronto, just see (indistinct) not be necessary. Take care (indistinct—more background discussion on map and countries).

Conversation with the GBC -- May 25, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Ah, no problem. GBC means now they should tour very extensive. That is the first principle, the GBC. Not sit down (in) one place and pass resolution. No, they must be active. They must act like me. As I am old man, I am traveling all over the world. Now to give me relief, the GBC members... I shall expand into twelve more so that they can exactly work like me. Gradually they will be initiators. At least first initiation. You must make advance. That is my motive. So, in that way I want to divide it in twelve zones. And we have to make more propaganda throughout the whole world. Now if you think that the world is so big, twelve members are insufficient, then you can increase more than that and make the zone similarly divided. It is world affair after all.

Conversation with the GBC -- May 25, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are already. Now extra. Now we are increasing to fifteen.

Śyāmasundara: Practically, there is not much... To divide Europe into another zone.

Prabhupāda: No, for the time being you can do it like that. So three has already entered and three has already gone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa has gone, Hayagrīva has gone, and Kṛṣṇa Dāsa has gone. And we are introducing three: Brahmānanda, Girirāja, and Madhudviṣa.

Devotees: Gaurasundara.

Prabhupāda: Gaurasundara.

Devotee: So shall we keep the number at thirteen, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Conversation with the GBC -- May 25, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: He wanted, but he was manage Gauḍīya Maṭha. We are managing the whole world. Guru Mahārāja (indistinct) less intelligent than (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: We can divide it up into smaller and smaller parts.

Prabhupāda: What you do now, this is my manifest plan, you... And so far Vṛndāvana is concerned, now there are three properties, so ideally one should keep (give?) his own property. Is that all right? (indistinct).

Devotee: That leased property.

Prabhupāda: Leased property. So I am not concerned. (indistinct) I want that you should live very peacefully and concentrate your mind for (indistinct). And we are not disturbed with these arrangements. Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja will be (indistinct), then that problem is solved. Now you make divided zones and work (indistinct). I want to (indistinct). That's all right.

Room Conversation -- July 5, 1972, London:

Prabhupāda: Was the Muslim League.

Sumati Morarjee: I know.

Prabhupāda: This all Englishmen subscribes.

Sumati Morarjee: Because you know is the policy divide and rule.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that was it. (indistinct) was made.

Sumati Morarjee: Otherwise, nobody will do anything. So, I won't take your time Swamiji.

Prabhupāda: No, you can sit down.

Sumati Morarjee: Because you are tired, oldly. I'm going to preserve this mālā.

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Interview -- July 20, 1972, Paris:

Prabhupāda: This is our Vedic civilization that their life should be (indistinct).

Devotee: ...how a man such as yourself, in such a high position and such hierarchy was able to leave all this in order to bring this message to others?

Prabhupāda: No. It's not to be... Life is divided into four parts: brahmacārī, student, gṛhastha, householder, vānaprastha, retired life and sannyāsa. Everyone should follow this principle. First of all, as brahmacārī student he should learn sufficiently what is the value of life. Then, when he's a householder, he should live properly with husband, wife and children-properly. Then, after retired life, giving the responsibility of household life to grown-up children, he should take lessons from saintly persons. (indistinct) Then at the end he should take sannyāsa. Whatever knowledge he has gathered he must distribute by traveling from one place to another. This is Vedic civilization. Everyone should come out.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: No, actually... Hindu, the word is not to be found in our Vedic scripture. It is the name given by the Mohammedans. So that is going on. Actually it is called varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas, four āśrama. The four varṇas, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Combined together it is called varṇāśrama. So unless the human being follows this varṇāśrama principle he's not a human being. He's animal, because animal has no varṇa, no āśrama. The human society must be divided. Then, just like in this body there are four divisions—the head division, the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division—all these are required for complete body. Although, by comparative study, head is the most important department, but still the leg is not... that we don't require leg. Leg is also required.

Morning Walk -- March 1, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: These are all oriental countries. Five thousand years ago this whole planet was India, Bhārata-varṣa. That we get from history, Mahābhārata. This planet name is Bhārata-varṣa.

Devotee (2): After King Parīkṣit, then it divided up, that soon after?

Prabhupāda: Divided? They are also already divided. But the culture diminished. Because the center of culture was India, Delhi. So as the power diminished, the maintenance of the culture diminished, and by contact with other types of aboriginal, they learned eating meat and gradually degraded. And they discovered different kinds of religion because... Just like at the present moment Christians are protesting why there should not be abortion. So they wanted to degraded. So the Indian culture did not allow, so the separate type of religion came out. This is the (indistinct). They wanted, "Why there should not be meat-eating?"

Room Conversations with Sannyasis -- March 15, 1974, Vrndavana:

Pañcadraviḍa: As far as the men since I think a lot are even, some cases they are sending problem cases to India, people they can't manage in the states. I think maybe if you divide, if you actually, since in the states you've divided the states into territories and certain men have certain territories. If you maybe appoint certain people in charge of territories of India and ask them which men they want, then they will tell you who they want, and the rest they can send away or send somewhere else. Then you'll have solid centers because the men will actually be desired.

Śyāmasundara: That's a good idea.

Prabhupāda: That's good. So you make like that.

Śyāmasundara: That's what, didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that, divide up four parts?

Devotee: Yes.

Room Conversations with Sannyasis -- March 15, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: But we are... Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four, twelve. Twelve zones. My idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya.

Śyāmasundara: But India itself could be divided even a few parts for preaching purposes.

Prabhupāda: That is already divided. Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana.

Pañcadraviḍa: So the men in charge they could say which men they wanted to keep and the rest they could send somewhere else. That way you would have men who were willing to work on the project, and if they were not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else.

Prabhupāda: So, make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration.

Room Conversations with Sannyasis -- March 15, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Weak, weak I am. Physically I am weak and besides that, if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books and how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do, little intelligently. We have got still respect. Keep our standard. The people will like us. People wants to give us help, just like this big sannyāsī, one of the biggest sannyāsīs, Gangesvarananda(?), he is attracted. He is a man of immense resource, men and money he has. Immense resource.

Śyāmasundara: We have to be careful not to...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: ...not to offend these people the...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- May 2, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, there is superior energy. The same example. Just like because I am now living, I am eating something, going to the stomach, the chemical action is going on. If I am dead, it will not. Therefore life is superior. On account of presence of life, the foodstuff which we are taking, that is being divided into different chemicals, some urine, some stool, some blood, and they are being utilized differently. So how can you say? But without life, such distinction will not act. Therefore life is superior. Even accepting life is also matter.

Karandhara: They say there is no evidences that that life is eternal.

Prabhupāda: Life is eternal? That is another question. That we shall see. First of all, you accept that life is superior. Make solution one after another.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that we say. That we also say.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But there are also non-living matters like crystals. They can grow. We can divide them, and it will reproduce like...

Prabhupāda: No, without living entity within, nothing can grow.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So some are saying that when they make these chemicals like the big molecules that we were talking about, DNA... And they are saying that DNA can make its own replication, means it can make another chain of molecules by its own. So they are saying that it is living.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And some are saying that it's not living.

Morning Walk -- May 14, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is his ignorance. How it can be material? The stone is also Kṛṣṇa's energy. Just like electricity energy is there everywhere. The electrician knows how to utilize it, how to take electricity. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, even in the stone. The devotees know how to utilize stone to appreciate Kṛṣṇa. The devotees know. The rascal, they do not know. Because the devotee has no other view than Kṛṣṇa. Why stone should be without Kṛṣṇa? Here is Kṛṣṇa. That is real oneness. And the Māyāvādī philosopher they say oneness, but divide. This is stone, this is not Kṛṣṇa. Why second? Why you bring another thing?

Devotee: Good and bad, evil and...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 17, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is warned by Śaṅkarācārya. Vivekananda lamented at the end of his life, that "I have simply wasted my life." He admitted, "I have not given anything." Bālakānām. He was after this body, and he was recorded, government record, as political sannyāsī. Yes. He had political purpose, but was acting as a sannyāsī. Just like Gandhi, "Saintly statesman." He is recorded, "Saintly statesman." He's a statesman, politician, but he was introducing some morality, non-violence, like that. Actually, his philosophy failed. He wanted Hindu-Muslim unity, but it was divided. The Muslim and Hindu divided. He wanted non-violence. He died out of violence. Therefore all his philosophy failed. And Indian independence was achieved not by Gandhi's non-violence method but (by) Subhas Bose's violence method. And he wanted to explain nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. Just see, another foolishness. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and he was screwing some meaning to prove his nonviolence.

Room Conversation with Krishna Tiwari -- May 22, 1973, New York:

Prabhupāda: But we get information that there is a measurement. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya, śatāṁśaḥ sādṛśātmakaḥ (CC Madhya 19.140). The tip of the hair you divide into one hundred parts, and take that part, again divide into one hundred parts, that is the measurement. That is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. How far do you agree with this?

Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. (laughs) I don't know what you mean by that, but of course it is very true that we do not know much about life, and scientists are the first to agree to that, that we know very little.

Prabhupāda: That is real scientist.

Krishna Tiwari: But the question is, on the left hand... Of course, in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of many scientists, there is no difference between a scientist or a common man or a religious man. Both..., all these people are trying to find out about their environment. So are the religious men. They want to find out more about themselves, about the nature they live in. They want to know more about it. They want to find out why they're here, how are they to live in this world, and so I do not think there is any difference between the two.

Conversation with Sridhara Maharaja -- June 27, 1973, Navadvipa:

Prabhupāda: Anudarśanam.

Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Divide up higher kind of intelligence.

Prabhupāda: The Russian professor...

Śrīdhara Mahārāja: And the scientific fineness that is also in the jurisdiction of matter. But a more subtle and subtler knowledge is possible.

Prabhupāda: Now we are presenting through two of my scientific students, Doctor of Chemistry, that matter is, the source of matter is spirit. This is our theory. Generally they believe the life, life comes from matter...

Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Life comes from matter.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Vidura was neutral. He left home when he understood that "Fighting is now inevitable. They'll fight. Why shall I remain here?" He left home. And Kṛṣṇa also said that "I will not fight. I'll not fight because this is family quarrel. I am known to every one of you. We are related. So I cannot take this side or that side. I may be..." He divided... He, by tricks... His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. So Duryodhana preferred, Duryodhana preferred His soldiers, that "Why shall I take this one man. I'll take His soldiers." And Arjuna said, "No, I want Kṛṣṇa." So Kṛṣṇa said, "Although I'm going to your side, but I'll not fight. Mind that." And, "Never mind, You don't fight." Mahābhārata is very nice. "Greater India." Mahābhārata means "The History of Greater India." Mahābhārata. Mahā means "greater."

Room Conversation with Indian Guests and Devotees -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi for some time, a few English words) (break) (Hindi for some time) (break) When the destiny of the people are to be controlled, there must be very, very intelligent man. That is Vedic civilization. There is standard aims and objects on which the people should be trained up. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. Viṣṇur ārādhanam. Worshiping Viṣṇu. This is the ultimate aim. So the whole society is divided into brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa—departmental—and they are trained up. But the aim is viṣṇur ārādhanam. But they have no idea at the present moment. Viṣṇur ārādhanam, he has no knowledge. But the civilization begins on this point. Human being means he's meant for viṣṇur ārādhanam. Otherwise what is the difference between dogs and human beings? The western people, they do not know.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Material things, material and spiritual, the living entities, they are spiritual, and the material elements, earth, water, fire, they are also material energy. There are two kinds of energies. Why two kinds? Three kinds of energies. Just like fire has got two kinds of energies, heat and light, similarly, God has got multi-energies. All those multi-energies have been divided into three. One is called internal, another is called external, and the third is called marginal. So this material world is manifestation of the external and marginal energy. So when the material world ceases to exist or it is dissolved, annihilated, so energy goes back to God. It goes back. Again, when there is creation, the same energy creates. The marginal energy, by the marginal energy and external energy. This is going on. Just like day and night, it is going on. At daytime people are busy. This is creation. At night everyone is sleeping. Similarly, when there is creation, these activities are going on. When there is no creation, it is night, everyone is sleeping.

Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee, Famous Historian, at his home or office -- July 22, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: The aim of human society should be God realization. That is the distinction between an animal and a human being.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad-gītā recommends that the whole society should be divided into four divisions: the brāhmaṇa, or the most intellectual persons, the kṣatriyas, the administrators, the vaiśyas, the mercantile agriculturists, and the śūdras, ordinary men, laborer or worker. Because this material world is conducted by three modes of nature, goodness, passion and ignorance, so according to the quality of the person, he should be listed in different categories. And it is the duty of the state to see that all these categories, divisions, they are working nicely.

Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee, Famous Historian, at his home or office -- July 22, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they were feeling the... Actually, in India... In our childhood, we know. Every Indian felt very secure. They never expected that Britishers will go. They were so sympathetic. And now they... This is the pulse felt by that statistics officer. They are not very much satisfied with the present system of government. British administration was very much appreciated by the Indians. Even Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appreciated. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he has written in something, somewhere, that "The Britishers also very nice because they don't interfere with the religious affairs." So as soon as they changed their views and tried to divide the Hindus and Muslims, the British Empire lost. According to Queen's declaration, the Britishers pledged that "They will not interfere with your religious affairs." Later on, for political purposes, when they interfered with this Hindu-Muslim question, then the British Empire lost.

Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee, Famous Historian, at his home or office -- July 22, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: He's different man.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Probably some connection there. Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: I... In some business I saw him sometimes in 1948, like that. (pause)

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Sad that Bengal has been divided.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Very sad.

Prabhupāda: Bengal is now divided. East Bengal is now called Bangladesh, and West Bengal is there.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: They still keep to the language, and they feel themselves Bengalis, though they're just (most?) Muslims.

Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee, Famous Historian, at his home or office -- July 22, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. They're keeping the Bengali language.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: India was divided, Pakistan and Hindustan.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. There's a great consciousness of difference of language too in India, which is rather new. In the past...

Prabhupāda: The two Bengals, they speak the same language.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Two... Yes.

Prabhupāda: But West Pakistan, they speak Hindi, or Urdu.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: And the southern states are very conscious of their different languages.

Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee, Famous Historian, at his home or office -- July 22, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Originally.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: There's that famous... (break)

Prabhupāda: Pakistan is also now divided.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Also Indonesia, and they're... On the surface they're Muslims but underneath they're Hindu, there's been...

Prabhupāda: I have been in Indonesia.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: You've also... Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Their culture is Hindu culture. But by religion they have accepted Muslim. They still, their names are Hindu names.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)—just a minute—how he can understand the brahma? Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Reporter: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: So this dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, they're divided according to karma. You cannot avoid this karma. Dharma means karma, activity. Brāhmaṇa, he's practicing, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). These are karmas. Brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. Kṣatriya-karma svabhāva-jam. So dharma means this is sva-dharma. Brāhmaṇa's executing the karma of brāhmaṇa, he's dharma.

Reporter: Yes, but then karmaṇy evādhikāras te...

Prabhupāda: Karmaṇi means that you are as you are...

Room Conversation with Mister Popworth and E. F. Schumacher -- July 26, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathe... (SB 5.18.12). This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena, hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, how to become a brāhmaṇa, how to become a kṣatriya, how to become a vaiśya, how to become a śūdra, or how to remain less important than the śūdras. The societies must be divided in different divisions. They should work conjointly... (end)

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is rascaldom. We have divided already four classes of men. Even in Russia... Even in Russia, I have seen, they have created two classes, the worker class, the manager class. I have seen it. Yes. So you cannot say that everyone will do the same work. That is not possible. I have given already the example, the brain, the arms, the abdomen and the leg. The leg cannot do the work of brain. Leg can cooperate with the brain, but cannot do the work of brain. This is natural position.

Yogeśvara: He asks: In our society do these four divisions also exist?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. And wherefrom you came?

Dr. Inger: Punjab.

Prabhupāda: Punjab.

Dr. Inger: Before it was divided into two.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes.

Dr. Inger: Before the...

Prabhupāda: Which district.

Dr. Inger: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Which district?

Dr. Inger: Lahore.

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Lahore.

Dr. Inger: Lahore.

Prabhupāda: Lahore City proper.

Dr. Inger: Yes. I taught there. And then, of course, it was divided, and, before that, I came here and joined.

Prabhupāda: I went to Lahore sometimes.

Dr. Inger: I see.

Prabhupāda: In 1925. There, in Lahore, there is, there were many Bengalis.

Dr. Inger: Oh yes. Yes.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: It is already there. He is professor, why? (laughter) That is their rascaldom. They are doing the same thing. But still they are decrying the process. Why you have become professor? You remain ordinary worker. There is no need of professor. Why he has become professor of Indology? And there is two, amongst the workers also, there are two classes, manager class, worker class. You have to divide. Without division... (break) Just like this body is not a lump of matter. There is division. Without division, the body cannot work.

Yogeśvara: So that's no excuse that there is...

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, everyone should work. Our Vedic philosophy is that everyone must work. But there must be division of work. Just like in your body there are different parts. The head department, the arms department, the belly department, and the legs department. These are different parts. So all these departments must work for the total benefit of the body. That is our philosophy. Nobody should sit idle. But he must work according to his capacity. Brain must work for giving direction. Hand must work for giving protection. Belly must work for supplying food, energy. And leg must work for carrying the body. So similarly the society must be divided: the brain of the society, the arms of the society, the belly of the society and the legs of the society. That will make perfection. The brain will give direction That is the brāhmaṇas. The arms will give protection. That is the kṣatriya. And the belly will give energy, food, that is vaiśya. And the legs will carry the body. That is śūdra. This is... Whole society should be divided into four divisions, the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas and the śūdras. And they should work cooperatively for the total benefit of the body.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: This is perfect life. Not that everyone should be brain. Then who will carry me? Just like in your bank, the manager is the brain. The secretaries and assistants are the hands, clerks. And ordinary worker, they are legs. Anywhere you go, you must find out these four divisions. Therefore the human society must be divided into four divisions. But there is no such plan. Now the plan is that everyone is being educated to learn technology, how to... In your country, especially. How to make economic development. So they have no brain. Therefore there are hippies. There is no brain actually. Now, the President Nixon, he is in the topmost post. He has no brain. Therefore he is being ridiculed. Neither he has honor. He is not resigning the post. He has been ridiculed by the people, but still, he is sticking to his post. So this is the defect. You have got in your country only the vaiśyas, the belly and the legs. I am just giving a crude example. Not only in your country, every country nowadays. There is no brain. Brain is finished.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform, there must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is not possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required. The society must be divided into four classes. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra.

Banker: My question is how does one determine into which part he goes?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is by tendency. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). By the tendency. Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction that "This boy is meant for becoming a brāhmaṇa." Everyone has got some tendency. From the tendency it should be designated. Or by work.

Lady: But originally it wasn't like that. Suppose if you are born into brāhmaṇa, fortunately, then you become brāhmaṇa.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No. Created, in this sense, it is manifested.

Karandhara: In that sense. But that still isn't the creation of the energy itself.

Prabhupāda: That... What is that energy? That is spiritual energy. Therefore we divide material energy and spiritual energy. In the spiritual energy everything is manifested and non-manifested. And the spiritual energy, everything is ever-existing. Sanātana, sanātana. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). Sanātana means ever-existing. There is another nature, but that is not this nature. That we admit.

Karandhara: But if this energy was never created, then what is the need for a creator?

Morning Walk -- December 30, 1973, Los Angeles:

Devotee: I was wondering. They say they are splitting the atom, and Kṛṣṇa is living within the atom. When they divide the atom, there is so much energy released.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's energy. Because Kṛṣṇa is there, therefore you will find Kṛṣṇa's energy.

Devotee: Is that more directly Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Directly, yes. You cannot even tolerate the atomic energy, and He has got reserved so many other energies. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). Millions of energies Kṛṣṇa has got. This is one of the energies. You cannot tolerate it. Reservoir of all energies.

Prajāpati: Today everybody is lamenting the energy crisis, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: There is no crisis. They have created the crisis, the rascals.

Karandhara: Prabhupāda, we will have to cross over to here to get back.

Prabhupāda: All right.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 5, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That Chaganlal this, I pay him extra eighty-five thousand. That is also black. No more white. So the black money was paid in this way, that the money was counted and it was put in a handbag, and it was locked by him. So the key was with him, and the bag was with me. As soon as court accepted the agreement, then I handed over, "Take this bag." Then again this Ratna Parik, he first of all proposed twenty thousand to sell that house. Then when I went there, he knew that he's settling at any cost, he said, "Now that twenty thousand was cost formerly. Now things have gone very high, I cannot sell." So he knows that we are eager to purchase. Then I said, "Then what do you want to do?" "Now I want thirty thousand." "All right, yes. Take it." I did not argue. In this way I settled up. And our Girirāja's father appreciated that "It is better a bad settlement than to prolong the case." So I took this policy. It is bad settlement, from twenty thousand to thirty thousand. But settled out. "I give you 85,000 black." But one thing I gain—that by cancelling the agreement, their proposal was that increase the price, twenty lakhs from fourteen lakhs. That was the arrangement between the attorneys. They cancelled the agreement and take twenty lakhs from him, and the balance should be divided by..., amongst us. That was the agreement. So that addition of twenty lakhs I satisfied Mrs. Nair by fourteen lakhs fifty thousand.

Morning Walk -- January 9, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But I am speaking that you combine millions of zeroes. That will never become one. That I am speaking. Zero is zero. Zero plus zero equal to zero. Zero minus zero equal to zero. Zero multiplied zero, zero. Zero divided by zero, zero. That's all. Where you get...? And by the side of zero, if you bring one, eko brahma, immediately it will become ten. And add another zero, immediately hundred, ten times increased. That one must be there, one God. Then zero increases value. Similarly, this material world is zero, but if there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is valuable. Then it is valuable.

Prajāpati: But that manorathena, the chariot of the mind, that is never valuable.

Prabhupāda: No, it has no value.

Room Conversation -- February 6, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Two kinds of things are there, sinful and pious, through the cycle of birth is going on. But this human form of life or above human form of life, it is a chance for understanding the real value of life, and therefore for human beings there are guidances, these Vedas, Purāṇas, Vedānta-sūtra. It is meant for the human beings, not for the cats and dogs. Anādi-bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda-purāṇa kaila (CC Madhya 20.117). So it is recommended in the human form of life, first of all training as a brahmacārī, then he may remain as gṛhastha for sometime. The life is divided into four parts, twenty-five years. Suppose I live a hundred years: twenty-five years to become brahmacārī, remain as brahmacārī, and twenty-five years to remain as gṛhastha, family man, and twenty-five years as vānaprastha and twenty-five years as sannyāsa. This is system, Vedic system. Sannyāsa means vānaprastha is the prepāration for sannyāsa, and sannyāsa means completely dedicated to the service of Kṛṣṇa. This is our system.

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Devotional activities, either he leaves from home or not leaves, that doesn't matter. It must continue from the very beginning. For the management of affairs, we require to divide. Because there are different classes of brain, so those who have very intellectual brain, they should become brāhmaṇas. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as kṣatriya. And those who are fit for producing food, taking care of the cows, they should be trained as vaiśya. And the balance, they're all śūdras. This is the division. You... Everywhere you'll find this division, natural. One class of men, very intelligent. One class of men, very strong, good brain for management, administration. (aside) Jaya. One class of men, fit for tilling the ground, field, and produce food, take care of the cows. And the balance, śūdra. That's all. So in our society, this division should be there. The most intelligent class of men, they should be engaged in preaching, reading books and instructing, taking care of Deity worship, temple, and another class should be strong managers, that things are going on nicely.

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was acting as a kṣatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaiśya. But Kṛṣṇa is neither kṣatriya nor, nor brāhmaṇa. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaiśya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kṣatriya. He was marrying as a kṣatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kṣatriya, sometimes as vaiśya, but He's neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa...

Morning Walk -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Ah. They're Vaiṣṇava. But because they have got to live in the material world, there must be division of work. If everyone wants to become the brain, who will act as leg? That is also required. If everyone says, "No, no, I'm not going to do the work of leg. I want simply to work as..." No. It is needed. The brain is needed, the hand is needed, the belly is needed, the leg is needed. So that we have to divide. Who will work as brain, who will work as hand, who will work as leg... The main aim is how to maintain this body perfectly, fit. That should be the aim, how the society will go on nicely. And for management, this hand, leg, brain, belly must be divided. Just like there's slight difference, those who are directly engaged in temple worship and those who are going to sell books. Apparently there's difference, but basically there is no difference. Like that.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: First they should be taught a skill.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four varṇas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varṇas, there will be no question of unemployment.

Hṛdayānanda: But from the very beginning there should be taught Bhagavad-gītā and...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Morning Walk -- March 23, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have made a clique with the managers of the foundation, and they present by literature all lies. The subject matter is India. "Oh, so many people are starving, so many..." In this way they take money from the managers, and it is divided amongst themselves.

Dr. Patel: They are the (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhava-bhūti: Also, Prabhupāda, there was one report that the Red Cross, seventy-five percent of the money collected went on advertising.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Dr. Patel: America is living on advertisement. Right or wrong? I have been studying American, I mean, psychology.

Morning Walk -- March 24, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Fifty-thousand. Because fifty members. Fifty members, eleven hundred rupees. He makes at least two, three members. If some day absent, average fifty. Fifty thousand. Not a single fifty n.p. he keeps. There are many. All, all of them. Not that everyone is earning fifty thousand, but even fifty hundred or fifty payasā, everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is tam abhyarcya. And if you divide partially, "Some percentage for Kṛṣṇa, some percentage for my sense gratification," then Kṛṣṇa says, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Proportionately. If you have spent cent percent of your energy for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is cent percent for you. And if you have spent one percent for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is one percent for you. Responsive cooperation. (laughter) Yes. This institution has advanced so much all over the world because we have got these boys who have dedicated everything for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it has so quickly advanced all over the world. They do not think of anything of personal.

Morning Walk -- March 26, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Everyone is not. That is the defect. Everyone is not in agreement.

Guest (1): Actually, they divided into camp... (break)

Prabhupāda: They do not know how these things coming, and how to amend it, how to reform. (break) ...countries, they are not happy.

Dr. Patel: They are not happy because the communism is not in the right. Communism is Cārvāka philo... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...others, they're also in the same background.

Dr. Patel: No, certain basic amenities are necessary. That is, has been provided in the Hindu religion. What we have to... (break) We have to remind them to follow your philosophy and that is... (break)

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: What does that mean? Read it again.

Indians: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, mām ekam.

Indian man (4): You have come to our narrow path now. When people divide (indistinct). Because those days were different. When people were (indistinct) on stones.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I cannot... A chaste woman, you cannot divide her. She must stick to one husband.

Indian man (4): No, in his time, people were Vaiṣṇavas...

Prabhupāda: You cannot, she cannot say, "I can accept as many husband as required." That is not good.

Morning Walk -- March 30, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Avibhakt... The Paramātmā, He is distributed. That does not mean He has become many. He's still one. Avibhaktam. Although, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61), you cannot calculate, "Now īśvara is now divided, so His original position is now gone."

Dr. Patel: Bhūta-bhartṛ ca taj jñeyaṁ grasiṣṇu prabhaviṣṇu ca.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Jyotiṣām api taj jyotis...

Prabhupāda: Here... Jyotiṣām api taj jyotiḥ.

Dr. Patel: Jñānam jñeyam jñāna-gamyaṁ...

Prabhupāda: This, this... We have got jyoti calculation of this sun. But the sun is only a reflection of the brahmajyoti.

Dr. Patel: Jyotiṣām api taj jyotis tamasaḥ param ucyate.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- April 4, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Entered. So just like it is to be understood. He's very intelligent. Now, I am... As soul, my magnitude is described. What is that? Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca (CC Madhya 19.140). Keśa agra, the tip of the hair, divide into hundred parts. And again take that one part and again divide into hundred parts. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca (CC Madhya 19.140). Now, it is simply, it is to be imagined. Kalpitasya. Jīva-bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ. That is the magnitude of the jīva. Now, that magnitude of jīva has entered in this body or in the elephant's body. Now, which is important, the body is important or that small particle is important?

Dr. Patel: Small particle is important.

Morning Walk -- April 5, 1974, Bombay:

Girirāja: (reads synonyms for Bg. 11.13) "Translation: At that time Arjuna could see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe situated in one place although divided into many, many thousands."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So, although... Now, what is important? The many, many thousands universes divided into varieties of opulences, that is important or Kṛṣṇa important?

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa is important.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Dr. Patel: The whole thing was ekāṁśena sthito jagat.

Prabhupāda: That is being explained.

Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. His physiognomy is sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (Bs. 5.1). That we can understand. Sac-cid-ānanda. He is eternal, He is full of knowledge and He is blissful. Sac-cid-ānanda. Your body, my body, is just opposite. It is not eternal, it is temporary. And it is full of ignorance. Therefore we require knowledge. (aside:) Little away, yes. So this is full of ignorance, and there are so many miseries. So Kṛṣṇa hasn't got a body like this. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's body is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. So we can distinguish what is Kṛṣṇa's body and what is our body. (break) ...understand. Try to understand, that what is the nature... That is called spiritual body. So we have got also similar body, but very small, very small. That is covered by this material body. And because in the spiritual body I am person, I have got form, therefore the material elements have taken a form. Just like when your coat is made, it is made according to your body. Because you have got hands, so the coat has got a hand. But the hand of the coat is not real. The real hand is within the coat. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Within. These foolish people, they do not understand. They take, "This is hand. This is hand." He does not know that this hand is artificial, outward. Real hand is within. This is their misconception. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Try to understand. These are very important question. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because within the coat the real man is there, therefore the dress has assumed two hands, two legs, one collar, like that. But this is false, like dress. Real... Therefore every living entity has got form. He is not formless. This less intelligent class of men, because they cannot see the form... It is so small... It is so small that if you divide the top portion of your hair into ten thousand parts,...

Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: The top portion, tip of the hair, the point, you divide into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the form of the soul. It is such minute, small... Because they cannot see, they say it is nirākāra. No, it is not nirākāra. It is there.

Italian Man (1): Can I ask you one question?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Italian Man (1): When we see Kṛṣṇa in us, in our hearts, the moment Kṛṣṇa comes, the moment that the link takes place with Kṛṣṇa in our hearts...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is always within your heart.

Italian Man (1): Yes. But at the moment that our soul opens itself and succeeds in putting a link... (break) I mean, I'm sorry, I mean...

Prabhupāda: He has this feature.

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Therefore the society must be divided into four classes of men, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There are three guṇas, and the sattva-guṇa, brāhmaṇa, a class of ideal men, must be there in the society so that people can follow them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). If there is no ideal men in the society, how they can be of good character? Therefore the brahminical class of men, I mean to say, in quality, satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). There must be an ideal class of men, brāhmaṇa. The next class, kṣatriyas, who can give protection to the society, they should come forward whenever there is danger. They will come forward to give protection to the society. Similarly, next, the vaiśya, they must produce. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). The class of men should be interested, produce foodgrains and give protection to the cows.

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: So there is very good demand for this culture, but unfortunately we give some rubbish things, and they come. Sometimes they go, that he becomes himself God. What is this nonsense? God is so cheap? So they have been frustrated, and our people go and still more frustrate them by giving some cheating type of... But here Bhagavad-gītā is very simple. There is no need of great education. What is the difficulty to understand? If Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), where is the difficulty? "You always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer My obeisances." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: (BG 4.13) "Divide the society in four classes of men." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: (BG 3.14) "You just produce sufficient foodgrain and eat sufficiently. Be strong. Perform yajña." Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā?

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: The foodstuff is in Pakistan, and the industry is in India. So the Pakistan will suffer for want of industry, and India will suffer for want of food. This is British plan for partition. They had no business to divide the country, but they wanted to do it as a parting kick, that "You want independence. You will have independence, but you will remain perpetually in war." That was British policy. None of them are benefiting. Occasionally they are fighting and losing so much money and men, that's all, a political game. Similarly, Germany is divided. Ireland is divided. This is going on. People are fighting, fighting, fighting. Leaders should be so sober and honest that the people should live peacefully, without any anxiety, without any want. That is the duty of the leaders to see. Perpetually they are in want, in scarcity, not in peace of mind, full of anxieties. In India especially, we see, the economy is so unsteady. The money value is decreasing every day. Nobody knows what will be tomorrow. Rice is selling today at two rupees kilo, tomorrow, three rupees, next day, four rupees. Where is the income is coming? Therefore there is strike, railway strike. So this is the mismanagement. They cannot guarantee. At least in England I have seen that... Or why the England?

Morning Walk at Villa Borghese -- May 25, 1974, Rome:

Yogeśvara: In the Vedic culture, was the land divided, in the sense that some people would receive land free or...?

Bhagavān: This is nice here, this ground.

Yogeśvara: The land in the Vedic culture, some of it was...?

Prabhupāda: Land belongs to the king, and you take land for cultivation, and you pay 25% tax to the king. That's all. All taxes. If you don't produce, then don't pay tax.

Yogeśvara: Oh, it wasn't forced that you had to pay so much.

Prabhupāda: No.

Atreya Ṛṣi: You pay 25% of what you have produced.

Morning Walk -- May 27, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: By atomic bomb... What is that? The... It says in your country, that you divide the city. I just forget.

Yogeśvara: The result of the bomb?

Prabhupāda: Bomb will be utilized where there are big materialistic persons. Bombs are never thrown in the village.

Bhagavān: The bombs will be thrown in the big cities where the industry is.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Yogeśvara: The targets will be the cities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be finished first. The bombs are never used at the villages. Downtown, downtown. (laughter) The downtown will be first finished. I have got experience during the last war. The bombs were being thrown in Calcutta and almost all the bombs were thrown in downtown.

Morning Walk -- May 29, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: Where is equal right?

Haihaya: The same possibilities of education to everyone.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Where is equal right? That is also with the capitalists also. The same thing, we divide. We divide that "This is brāhmaṇa, this is kṣatriya, this is vaiśya, this is śūdra." We also divide, and you also divide. Then where is the advancement in philosophy?

Haihaya: Because they think that capitalists, they don't give the same possibilities to earn...

Room Conversation with Biochemist, Dr. Sallaz -- June 4, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our study. So the living energy, the spirit soul, it has got a formation, formation, form. That is also stated in the śāstra, that 1/10,000th part of the top of the hair. Hair, the point, hair. (Yogeśvara translates in French) 1/10,000 part of the... The exact version is keśāgra. Keśa means hair, and agra means the top. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (CC Madhya 19.140). So that point, you divide into hundred, and take again one part of it, and again divide into hundred. That means you divide the top of the hair into ten thousand parts and then that one part is the magnitude of the soul, spiritual energy. That spiritual energy is within you, within me, within the ant, or within the elephant. So we are living entities. And the body is inferior energy, at the present moment. In the material world the body is covering. Just like you are covered by the coat.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra, natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section, like the belly, another section, like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Find out this verse.

Yogeśvara: (French)

Prabhupāda: Page?

Nitāi: 235.

Yogeśvara: You have it?

Nitāi: You want to read it?

Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: That's it. You may be scientist, you may be something else, but if you try to satisfy the Supreme Lord by your occupation, that is perfection. That is perfection. Read the purport.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Human society all over the world is divided into four castes and four orders of life. The four castes are the intelligent caste, the martial caste, the productive caste and the laborer caste. These castes are classified in terms of one's work and qualification and not by birth. Then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life, the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life. In the best interest of human society there must be such divisions of life, otherwise no social institution can grow in a healthy state. And in each and every one of the abovementioned divisions of life, the aim must be to please the supreme authority of the Personality of Godhead.

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: No, why? The standard of living should be one: plain living and God consciousness. That is the disease. Everyone wants to enjoy this material world to his best capacity. Therefore we divide. They don't want to live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Material consciousness. Enjoyment of the senses. And that is the cause of their suffering. Only on account of this sense gratification, they're creating different mentality, and, after death, they're getting different body. That they do not know. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. One is trying to associate with the goodness, brāhmaṇa, brāhmaṇa qualification, he'll be promoted, and one who is trying to imitate, "I shall be as powerful as the tiger," he'll be degraded. It is nature's law.

Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Yogeśvara: It is against capitalism, this idea?

Prabhupāda: No. It is the movement to qualify men to their respective positions. It is an educational system to divide first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. They all required, but at the present moment, the fourth-class man is occupying the first-class man's place. We want to divide the society into real first-class, second-class, third-class... They're all required, but they have got their respective positions, not topsy-turvied. As the, as to keep the body fit, we require the head, the hands, the belly and the legs. If we simply keep legs, it is useless. (French)

Pṛthu-putra: He asks what language we use when we read Bhagavad-gītā and...

Prabhupāda: No. This is in Sanskrit language, but we translate into different languages.

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: How many years, eighteen thousand months?

Haṁsadūta: About 1,300.

Prabhupāda: Eighteen thousand months, divide by twelve.

Professor Durckheim: Twelve thousand months would be thousand years.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So...

Haṁsadūta: 1,500 years.

Prabhupāda: What these theologicians think about God? It is already 1,500 months' substance to read. What they will discover? Teeny discovery? We have already stock for 1,500 years' understanding. So what we have to understand from them? (break) ...anādir ananta-rūpam. This is only for Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa has got expansions—unlimited. Advaita, acyuta, ananta. Ananta means unlimited. God, His one feature is Kṛṣṇa, and He has unlimited features. If a gentleman simply reads the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam quietly at home, he will be fully conversant, fully aware of what is God. Just like a scholar.

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Now, the talents are described. Find that Eighteenth Chapter, śamo damas titikṣā. Then...

Reverend Powell: What I'd like (break) I'd like to hear this, but...

Prabhupāda: Talents are divided into three categories: the brāhmaṇa category, and the kṣatriya category, the vaiśya category and the śūdra category. They are described here.

Reverend Powell: And this...

Prabhupāda: What are the qualifications of a brāhmaṇa. Symptoms.

Reporters Interview -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: " ...and according to their own fruitive activities they are transmigrating from one species of life to another and from one planet to another. In this way their engagement in material existence is being continued since time immemorial. The living entities are atomic parts and parcels of the supreme spirit. There is, however, a measurement for the length and breadth of the atomic spiritual spark. It is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Tenth Canto, Eighty-seventh Chapter, thirty-sixth verse, that if you divide the top of a hair into one hundred parts and again if you divide one part of that into another one hundred parts, such 1/10,000th part of the tip of a hair is the length and breadth of the individual soul. This is also confirmed in the Vedas in the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad. This atomic magnitude of the individual living entity is again described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Eleventh Canto, Sixteenth Chapter, eleventh verse, as follows.

Room Conversation with Scientists -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: ...these are all misconceptions because I am not this body. I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit... They are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, white, black. Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they are dividing, this designation. So this knowledge that so long the spirit soul is there in the body, it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body?

Morning Walk at Marina del Rey -- July 14, 1974, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: These cells, the micro-cells, they divide. They... Just like...

Prabhupāda: Let them do whatever they do, but still, Kṛṣṇa is there. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣam tam ahaṁ bhajāmi (Bs. 5.35)**. (break) ...your undeveloped conscious, more you are servant of nature. The mo... As you have got less developed consciousness,... Just like the dog and the girl, she is developed consciousness. Therefore the dog, less conscious, it is serving. Similarly, if you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious fully, then you have to serve māyā.

Bahulāśva: Kali-dāsa. (japa)

Prabhupāda: To serve māyā means to accept this material body. māyā will give you a dress according to your karma, and you'll have to work. This will continue.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Social platform, there must be four classes of men, divisions. Just like this body is divided into four departments—the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg—so the society should be divided into four divisions: the brain division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. Leg division means ordinary worker. And all of them should cooperate for keeping the body fit. If this system is followed, then the whole human society will be working very nicely. At the present moment there is no brain; therefore everything is chaotic. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is creating some brain. If they follow, the whole society will be happy. A man may be very stout and strong, but if he has no good brain, it is useless. Similarly, at the present moment there is education, there is money and everything, but because there is no brain, the whole thing is in chaotic condition. The first defect is, in education, that the present leader, he does not know what is the aim of life. Neither the people know that there is reincarnation or transmigration of the soul after death. They do not know. So basically they are brainless. So they cannot give guidance, and therefore the whole society is in chaotic condition.

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: There is no question of scarcity because God has created everything complete. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). There cannot be any defect in the creation of God. We have created these defects on account of our disobeying the orders of God. God never said that "motorcar-ād bhavanti bhūtāni." He never says. But instead of producing food grains, we are producing so many unwanted things. People's energy is engaged for... Just like in America or in every country, so much energy and resources are engaged for preparing war materials. And that means there must be war. And you must be killed; I must be killed. You will kill me; I will kill you. That's all. Therefore God says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The human society should be divided into four classes of men: the most intelligent class, brāhmaṇa; the next intelligent class, kṣatriya; then next intelligent class, vaiśyas; and the fourth-class men, who cannot become brāhmaṇa, neither kṣatriya, nor vaiśya, they are called śūdra. Śūdra is meant for giving service to the others. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44).

Room Conversation with Reporter -- March 9, 1975, London:

Prabhupāda: That's all. And there is no education how to live. All of us being sent to the slaughterhouse, that's all. They do not know how to live. In the Vedic civilization you will find the first proposition is how to live. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). How to live... First the human society is divided into four: the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya, or the śūdra. The first-class intelligent man, they are educated as brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means satya śama dama titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Just like we are training engineer, similarly, a class of men, those who are very intelligent, they should be trained up as brāhmaṇa. They should be trained up how to speak truth any circumstance. Even to the enemy he will speak truth. This requires training, not that foolishly, a cats' and dogs' life. What is the value of this life? The modern civilization, they do not know how to live. They are simply interested in eating, and that's also any nonsense eating. But according to Vedic civilization, "This eating is first class. This eating is second class. This eating is third class. This eating is fourth class." So many things required to correct the mistaken way of civilization. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore God's representative, king, is wanted. He'll divide. "All right, you take this." That is king. King means God's representative. Naradeva. Therefore, according to Vedic scripture, the king is so respected, guru is so respected, father is so respected—because they give guidance. "You live, Kṛṣṇa conscious, like this." That is their duty. The king is simply planning how to collect taxes, this tax, land tax, sale tax, income tax, this tax, this... So his only business is to plunder: "Let him work, and I shall take it away." And everyone is doing. That is struggle for existence. I want to cheat you. You want to cheat me. That's all. And therefore they are throbbing. There is no solution.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: She has written one article in our Back to Godhead. I am quoting from that.

Brahmānanda: "...in ignorance performed at an improper time and place to an unworthy person like a gambler or a drunkard, or contemptuously, without respect. Charity in passion, performed to get something in return with a desire for fruitive results or in a grudging mood. Charity in goodness, performed as a duty and at the proper time and place to a worthy person and with no expectation of material returns. And charity in pure goodness, performed only to satisfy the Supreme Lord. In the śāstras charity in passion and ignorance is completely rejected, although people do it unconsciously. Charity in goodness only is recommended. Point Eight: Proper and beneficial use of the income and property of the institutions and how far the policies of the government and the exercise of its authority in its behalf are just and proper. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī was the chief minister of the government of Nawab Hussein Shah. He gave us a good example how to divide the property in the society. Fifty percent of the income must be spent for Kṛṣṇa, twenty-five percent of the income should be spent for family, and twenty-five percent should be kept in reserve for emergency expenditure.

Morning Walk -- April 23, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That is their defect. They theorize, but when it is practically going to be done, "No money. Get taxes." They will levy tax, and the tax will be divided amongst themselves, that's all.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially now all the governments all over the world are broke. They have no money.

Prabhupāda: There will be very, very big chaos, this godless civilization. And it is distinctly said, "There will be no grain, no sugar, no milk." These things will be stopped. Eat your sons and daughter. You are very much fond of eating meat. Eat your son. They will do that. I think they are doing now. You know that?

Evening Discussion -- May 6, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: That is stated there. In the verse what it is?

Amogha: Adhi-yaj... Well, it depends on whether I pronounce it right. (laughs) But it is spelled, a-d-h-i-y-a-j-n-a-h with a dot underneath. So...

Prabhupāda: Adhi-yajña. When we divide the word, then the first noun form is used. Sanskrit grammar is very difficult. It requires twelve years to learn simply Sanskrit grammar. So, that is not possible. So whatever is there, you understand that. Sanskrit grammar is very, very difficult. At least twelve years it requires. And if you understand Sanskrit grammar, then you can read all the Vedic literature without any translation. Simply by studying. Therefore the Sanskrit scholars are first of all taught grammar. And when one is expert in reading grammar properly, then all Vedic literature becomes very simplified.

Room Conversation with Kim Cornish -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: The sky, the Brahman. What is the sky? A combination of atoms. So the component parts they are also Brahman, otherwise how it is Brahman? Unless the component parts are Brahman, how is it Brahman? It is a combination of many component parts, small Brahman. Param Brahman. Param Brahman means the supreme. The sea water, ocean water. Ocean water is very big, that is Brahman. Big means Brahman. But what is this ocean water? Small molecules of water. Sometimes we see the sea waves, small molecules, cool. So it is combination of small Brahman. So, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. And we are a small, very small fragmental portion of Brahman. How small are we? One ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. We cannot see even the tip of the hair, very small point. And you have to divide it into ten thousand parts. And that one part—you, I, everyone. So small. So everything is Brahman. It is said sarva khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. Why? Because the Brahman is very big, but what is this big? The big is a combination of small molecules, atoms. What is your idea of Brahman?

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: At least one class of men must be thoroughly conversant, thoroughly aware of the things as they are. They are called brāhmaṇas. Therefore the society should be divided into four classes. The first-class men, who have got full knowledge of life and the problems of life... That there should be, the first-class men. They may be very few; it doesn't matter. Ideal class. People will learn by their behavior, by their character, by their knowledge. So must be there. Then the next class would be the administrators. They would be advised by the first-class men, and they would administer the state. And the third-class men, they should produce food, enough food for the whole population. And the fourth-class men would assist these three higher class, first class, second class and third class. This is the arrangement, nature's arrangement. There are first-class men; there are second-class men; there are third-class men; there are fourth-class men. But if you produce simply fourth-class men, there cannot be any adjustment.

Morning Walk -- May 16, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: No, maybe there. There were... All the kings of the world, they joined, either this party or that party. Friends, friendly countries, they joined. Just like Kṛṣṇa. He personally joined Arjuna, but He gave His soldiers to Duryodhana. It was family war. So the friends divided, "I will join you." It was sporting. For the kṣatriya fighting is sporting. They have football match. They did not take it as enmities. Just in the evening they are friends. This party goes to that party, that party goes to... It is a decision, who will be king, that's all. Test of strength. Actually it was not enmity. "Let us fight, and who is strong he will be king, that's all."

Devotee (1): And the losers will go to the heavenly planets.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who dies in such fight, he goes to heavenly planet.

Devotee (1): So they were not afraid of dying.

Morning Walk -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: You have not seen varieties of men?

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then, what is the...

Amogha: Well is it divided by country or within one country there are many species?

Prabhupāda: You are taking of country, but the śāstra takes of the planets, not of the country. Your idea is very crippled: country, national. But śāstra is not... There is no such thing as national. They take the whole universe as a whole. They consider from that angle of vision. These crippled ideas, "state," "national," has come later on. There was no such thing previously. One planet or universe, like that. Just like last night the girl was astonished that "How this planet can be governed by one king?" It was being actually done. And the whole universe is being governed by Brahmā, one person. So one must know how to govern.

Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Otherwise the society was divided into four classes—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas were first-class men, ideal. But in the society there is no ideal men. One should have some example, living example, to see "Oh, here is an ideal man." So the ideal man is described here in our Bhagavad-gītā. What is the ideal? Any man can be trained up. Not cent percent, but even one percent man becomes ideal, the ninety-nine percent will see and follow. But there is no ideal man. That is the defect. So just like we are training them as ideal man, by character, by religion, by behavior, by education. That is the purpose of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And you can see practically what was their previous life and what they are now. So government should establish an institution to create ideal men. We can help. We can help.

Director: But it would be very difficult for the people who start out with us. Would be possible with the kids that start out with us.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: This is winter holiday?

Guest 1: There are three terms. This is the first term holiday.

Amogha: They divide the year into three parts, and after each part they have a holiday.

Prabhupāda: We have got in India two period holiday, summer holiday and Pūjā holiday. There is a season for worshiping different types of demigods. That is called Pūjā. And in India when the summer becomes too hot, that is holiday. (guests prepare to leave) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Guest 1: I wish you a good trip and a happy trip.

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Radio Interview -- May 25, 1975, Fiji:

Prabhupāda: Relevance mean you are spirit soul. You are not this body. This thing first you have to understand. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is India's philosophy, that "I am spirit soul." And if you realize brahmāsmi, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na... (BG 18.54). As soon as you realize that you are not this material body, you are spirit soul, then immediately you become jolly, prasannātmā. Prasannātmā means na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He has no more any hankering for things which he does not possess, no more any lamenting which he has lost. Take, for example, that we have lost our portion of country as Pakistan and fighting since... This was a plan by the British government that divide them in such a way. They will perpetually fight. They will never be happy. This was their plan. That has been successful. But we are lamenting. Both... Pakistan is lamenting or not, I do not know, but Hindustan is lamenting. Gandhi was against this partition. But Jawaharlal Nehru, just to become prime minister, immediately divided.

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Yogi Bhajan: That's it. Also there is a fundamental message in that, that as God created everyone, God created all of us, and in Sikh dharma God, whatever we want to call it, ultimate reality, beyond sunya-samadha, the truth, and Lord Kṛṣṇa in His incarnation taught, Lord Rāma taught. And what our problem at this time at the humanity is: the humanity is divided in many forms. And it is the inner hatred which people want to expel (spell?) out.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that every, at least, religious sect... I don't say others, nonreligious or agnostic. There are Christian, Mohammedan, Hindu, Sikhs, or any religious system, they have accepted that there is God, Supreme Truth.

Yogi Bhajan: No, there is one fundamental thing which this movement may not know. In Dasan Grantha, Guru Govind Singh wrote down Kṛṣṇa avatāra.

Prabhupāda: Avatāra...

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's... What Kṛṣṇa says, that is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you take it, Bhagavad-gītā, that instruction? What is wrong there? Every problem is solved there. Now, so far economic... Now the question is economic. So Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). So where is the objection? Produce food grain, and both animal and man will be happy. So who will disagree with this point? Follow this. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa says first. This is economic. Social—Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The human society should be divided into four classes according to quality and work. So four classes there are. First class, intelligent class; the second class, the administrators; the third class, the mercantile; and the fourth class, who are not within these three class. That is going on. Now make it systematic. The first-class man... Who is a first-class man? Then... Find out. Satya śamo damaḥ titikṣa ārjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42).

Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Solution not only of your country or our country, it is the solution for the whole human society. I told that as there are different divisions in the same body, the head, the arms, the belly, and the leg... Although the body is one, but there are different parts for different function. Then the body is going nicely. The head is the most important part of the body. So if the head is not in order, then, in spite of presentation of other parts of the body, hands, leg, the body is useless. Just like a madman. Madman, this brain is not in order. Therefore despite the presentation of the hands, legs, and other things, it is useless. Similarly, the human society should be divided into four classes according to quality. Not everyone is on the same level. So for, even for material purposes there must be four divisions: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, means... The definition of the first-class, find out. This is the definition of the first-class man.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Then the social structure will be in order and everyone will be peaceful, aiming at the point, how to go back to home, back to Godhead. Unless there is such structure of the society... Just like in our body we have got four divisions, the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. All of them are required. But the position of the head and position of the leg are different. Head means giving direction, and arms means giving protection, and belly means receiving food for energy of the body, and leg means working. So the human society must be divided into four section, and they should work combinedly, cooperatively. Then there will be peaceful condition for realization of the goal of life, back to home, back to Godhead. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching this process of life, and the whole world is now in chaos on account of no brain. Just like we have got this body. If the brain is not working in good condition, then he is called a madman.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Yes, cow, from where you get milk, that cow. So the exact word is used in Sanskrit, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Vaiśya, the third-class man, is called vaiśya. So his duty is how to produce food, food grains, for both for the animals and the man. And he gives protection to the cows. As the second-class man, the administrator, he gives protection to the human being from danger, similarly, the third-class man is entrusted to give protection to the cows. Cow is very important animal in the society because it is supplying milk, the most nutritious food. And... Find out. This is the third-class man's duty. And the fourth-class man means general worker. He has no brain, he simply helps the other three classes: first-class, second-class, and the third-class. And below the fourth-class men, they are called fifth-class, sixth-class. So they are called lower class, less than the fourth-class. So the society should be generally divided into four classes. As I have given example, there is head, arm, belly, and leg.

Room Conversation after Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: She voluntarily became blind. And up to the last point of her husband's precarious condition, she remained with him. These are the examples. There are other examples. Damayanti. They became so poor that they had no clothing. So the one cloth divided into two, husband and wife. So these instances are in the Vedic literature, that wife remains always faithful and subservient to the husband. That is their perfection. Now the Americans may not like this idea. That is different thing. But we are speaking of the Vedic culture. And these are the instances, vivid instances. Why Sītā accompanied her husband? And because she accompanied her husband in the jungle, the war between Rāma Rāvaṇa became possible. And it is the advice that "When you go to other countries you should not take your wife." Pathe narī-vinārjitaḥ. Because it may create some trouble. But still, the faithful wife goes with the husband.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: Spiritual paths are divided into four. Not spiritual. Real spiritual, mixed spiritual. Just like this, "God, give us our daily bread." It is mixed spiritual. One has approached God, God is spiritual, but one is asking for material profit. So this is mixture, matter and spirit. So there are four classes generally known as karmī, fruitive actors, they work for getting some material profit. They are called karmī. Just like all men, you will see, they are working so hard day and night, driving their cars, (makes noise of cars) this way and that way. The purpose is how to get some money. This is called karmī. And then jñānī. Jñānī means he knows that "I am working so hard. Why? The birds, beasts, the elephants, big, big..., eight million different types of..., they are not. They have no business. They have no profession. How they are eating? So why unnecessarily I work so much? Let me know what is the problem of life."

Morning Walk -- July 14, 1975, Philadelphia:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, no, this is the culture. That means take a cell from a living tissue, and you culture it and you supply the sufficient nutrients. Then theoretically they will grow forever. They will divide. They will...

Prabhupāda: So they will grow to a human being?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not a human being, but the cells just divide.

Prabhupāda: Then an ant, an ant?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.

Prabhupāda: Then what is this? (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughing) But the cell is still alive.

Prabhupāda: But you said that as soon as the man dies, they also die.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is what my question arose, how these, the relationship between the jīvātmā in cells and the jīvātmā in the heart.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1975, New Orleans:

Prabhupāda: So, first-class man is described, śamo damaḥ tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam, these are the qualifications, second-class these are the qualifications, third-class, fourth-class. So there are different varieties of men, so divide them according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole human society will be... There are four division of your body—the head division, the arm division, the belly division, the leg division. If you engage the head for walking, that is mistake, and if you engage the leg for thinking, that is mistake. Similarly, there are different types of men, combine together, and it will be nice body, the leg will walk, the hand will protect, the head will give instruction, and the belly will get energy by eating food. Those divisions are required. Not that everyone is all. No, there must be division of labor. So that is described, how to make civilization perfect, who is going to hear and take it. Cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). If you can adjust things, you can utilize things, then everything will be useful. And if you do not know how to utilize things, then everything will be useless. Take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā and make everything useful. Then the human society will be perfect.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Prabhupāda: Hm? Tax means... Everyone must have some income for maintaining. So brāhmaṇas, they(?) doesn't require any... They will live on the contribution of the society. Because they are giving for free service, so valuable service, knowledge, so they are provided by the kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas. So they have no anxiety for earning livelihood. Things are coming. Just like we are maintained. At least people give to me contribution. So similarly, brāhmaṇa will live at the cost of others' contribution. That is source of income. Kṣatriyas, they'll levy tax. Kṣatriya is given land. Now he divides the land. I have got, say, two thousand acres of land. So I divide to the vaiśyas, one thousand this man, one thousand this man, one thousand. So on condition that "I give you this land. You produce foodstuff or utilize any way. You give me twenty-five percent."

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Brahmānanda: So eventually we should divide up our society in this way? Our members...

Prabhupāda: Yes, just to show people how to... The first-class men, brāhmaṇa, second-class, kṣatriya, third-class, vaiśya, fourth-class...

Satsvarūpa: But all in our society are Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: That is our real position. This is for management.

Nityānanda: How many kṣatriyas can I have on this farm? How many kṣatriyas can we have on one farm?

Prabhupāda: I told. Find out who is going to be kṣatriya. Then... Take your time (?).

Nityānanda: You can have more than one?

Morning Walk -- August 6, 1975, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: But you are doctor already. Why shall I become doctor? You serve me. We serve you by giving you Kṛṣṇa consciousness; you serve me as a doctor. What is the wrong there? Parasparārtham. I am for you; you are for me. Division of labor, that is accepted universally. So ask them, "Do you think that everyone should become doctor? Then where is the patient?" Eh? Everything is required. Similarly, you require our help also. It is cooperation. You know medical science; we know spiritual science. So let us exchange and be happy. Why you are envious of us? Why there is division in the body—head, arms, legs, belly? Why not everything head or everything leg? Why there is divided? That is nature. It is required. Why this road is neglected?

Morning Walk Excerpt -- August 17, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That we shall see.

Saurabha: The difficulty is there's a law that so much garden we have to make, and each garden has to be minimum 4,000 square feet, so it has to be one particular area. And our land has been divided in so many small pieces, so we have somewhere to make a big garden. Then everywhere else we can build.

Prabhupāda: Do. You have got enough space. (end)

Morning Walk -- September 26, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Prabhupāda: No, hin... There is question of hindrance. I am seeing as it is. That is another thing.

Indian man (2): Hindrance is already there, as I described before. (laughter) Swamijī, my request is that the world is divided into two main things. One, some people believe, a group, believe that world is formless. Some say world has got a form. So instead of entering to this controversy, why we should not agree that whatever you...?

Prabhupāda: No, this is not controversy. This is fact, that God is... That is...

Morning Walk -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: And taxation. And the taxation is divided among them. The tax is meant for public welfare. Instead of public welfare, they divide it amongst themselves and enjoy wine, women, motorcar and flesh. That's all. This is going on. All this income tax-plundering process. This income tax means a plan how to take away everything from the actually earning members of the society. That is income tax. And that is divided amongst administrators. That's all.

Cyavana: Here it is very prominent. The workers in the fields, they are barely making enough to live from day to day. But the planters who live in France, they are taking millions of rupees and living very comfortably.

Morning Walk -- Durban, October 13, 1975 :

Prabhupāda: Victim of European propaganda. He used to take "Anything Indian, bad. Anything Indian, bad." Not only he. Later on, all the so-called educated persons, they took it for granted that "Whatever is done in London, that is first-class, and whatever is Indian original, that is all bad." And they controlled the native princes. So many things. It is a big history, how they killed India's original culture. And then Hindu-Muslim riots, friction, fighting between Hindus and Muslims and dividing them.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said that the British instigated the Muslims.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How did they do that?

Morning Walk -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: No, not... Yes, whole world. He must be rājarṣi, just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, representative of Kṛṣṇa. He can divide to small kings, "Now you look after such tract of land," and he divides. In this way there will be peace. No tax. If you are unable to produce anything, then no tax. Why should you levy tax from the poor man?

Harikeśa: What about those people who don't want to work? They are lazy.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Harikeśa: What about lazy people?

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Busy intelligent means at least whatever he is doing, there is some meaning, busy intelligent. And lazy intelligent means he is doing higher things. Lazy intelligent means brāhmaṇa, and busy intelligent means kṣatriya. So the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). The society should be divided into four classes. The śūdras, they are busy fools. Therefore they are to be guided. They are to be guided. If there are, hundred workers are there, then one leader must be there to give the direction: "Why you are doing this? Why you don't do this?" Otherwise he'll create havoc. Busy fool. So the whole world is full of busy fools. That's all. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find that for brāhmaṇa, śamo damaḥ satyaṁ śaucaṁ titikṣa ārjavam, jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma sva... (BG 18.42). There is no recommendation that "You work hard day and night."

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has to tax his brain. Kṛṣṇa has given advice, everything: "Divide the society into four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra." And then the brāhmaṇas should give nice advice, teacher. The kṣatriyas should govern, and the vaiśyas should produce food and give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, then trade. And śūdras should help, worker. Here I see the Europeans, they are working as the kṣatriyas, government, and the Indians they are working as vaiśya, and the Africans, they are as śūdras. But where is brāhmaṇa? There is no brāhmaṇa; therefore it is not good. It will suffer. And if they accept, the government men accept our advice and do accordingly—we don't want government post, but we can give good advice how to govern—then everyone will be happy. That they are losing. There is no good head. They are simply thinking in their animal way, "Why the Indians should come here?" And the Indians are, "Why whites are neglecting us?" This is going on because there is no good engagement. So this is essential, that the society should be divided into four classes of men: the first-class men-lazy intelligent; second-class men-busy intelligent; and third-class men-lazy fool; and fourth-class men-busy fool.

Room Conversation -- October 29, 1975, Nairobi:

Prabhupāda: It will go because they are all thieves. When the stolen property is to be divided, there will be fight.

Cyavana: Like a band of pirates. They always fight amongst themselves and kill each other.

Prabhupāda: That is natural. When they plunder, they are united, and when they share, there will be fight. This is psychology. When plundering others' property they will unite and take the whole thing, and then, when they come for sharing, there will be fight. This is the psychology everywhere. Therefore there are so many parties. Just like in India the... Of course, Congress Party was the predominant to fight with the Britishers. And as soon as they got independence, so many hundred thousand parties grew up: the Congress Party, the RSS party, the Hindu-mazara(?) party, the Muslim League party, this party, this party. And then they began to fight. This is the way. Senayor eva sa ucyate.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Hm. Very good.

Dr. Patel: Once I read it, but now I am doing a critical study of it. Both of Sanskrit as well as your comments. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...divided by separate words.

Dr. Patel: It is written in purport too much (Sanskrit). The combination of this word is so difficult...

Prabhupāda: ...recommended to study Bhāgavata from bhāgavata, not by grammar.

Dr. Patel: No, no. But unless, I mean, I like Sanskrit myself, so I try to learn Sanskrit; I can read other, more Sanskrit books. So it is a sort of a study with me, as well as a knowledge of Bhāgavata. So I am trying to be more critical about it. But that way I have read Bhāgavata in Gujarati, even in Hindi (indistinct) Gorhakpur.

Conversation on Roof -- December 26, 1975, Sanand:

Prabhupāda: Yes, because they're fools. They're as fools. They are simply criticizing the capitalists, that much. That much, there is something ideal that the state property should be equally divided. That's a good thesis. But they do not know that it is not the ultimate solution. You do not know who is the proprietor. You do not know the proprietor. These things belong to Him. You are using it. I am thinking that "You are proprietor." But actually you are not proprietor. He is proprietor. If that is the position, then I take it from you that: "You cannot possess. I shall possess." Then what is my possess? The same thing. As you took it, took it out from this man, so I took it, take it from you. So my position is the same. If you cannot find out who is the actual proprietor, then you may change hands. The problem remains there, that it, it does not belong to you. You are forcibly snatching from the proprietor, or without knowing the proprietor, you are making arrangement. What is the value of this arrangement?

Page Title:Divide (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, RupaManjari
Created:08 of Nov, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=119, Let=0
No. of Quotes:119