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Devotee means serious devotee

Conversations and Morning Walks

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Devotee means serious devotee.
Conversation with Professor Hopkins -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prof. Hopkins: Lingayat. Lingayat teacher. The Śaivite, Śaivite...

Prabhupāda: He is impersonalist.

Prof. Hopkins: You would say impersonalist.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. They say Śivāham, "I am Śiva." They are impersonalist. If you are Śiva then why you worshiping Śiva? That is impersonalist.

Prof. Hopkins: So any position which would deny the difference between the devotee and God, you would see...

Prabhupāda: He is impersonalist.

Prof. Hopkins: Is impersonalist.

Prabhupāda: The impersonalist theory is that I am now devotee. As soon as I become perfect I become one."

Prof. Hopkins: Oh.

Prabhupāda: That is their theory. Then there is no more difference. In the preliminary stage, when I am not perfect, I am worshiping some imaginary form of God. But when I become perfect there is no need of worshiping, I become one with God. This is impersonal. Now, actually, the Supreme has no form so they recommend whichever form you like to worship you can select out of these five. But their destination is the same. So somebody likes "I worship Śiva," somebody says "I worship Gaṇeśa," somebody says, "I worship Durgā," and Sūrya, or somebody says, "I worship Viṣṇu." So this Vaiṣṇava is impersonalist. You'll find amongst smārta brāhmaṇas there are also some of them Vaiṣṇavas, but they are impersonalists.

Prof. Hopkins: So you would... You would say that those, those smārtas say, and I know smārta brāhmaṇas who are worshipers of Viṣṇu. You would say they still are impersonalists in some ultimate sense because at some point they would deny...

Prabhupāda: No, it is very difficult to pick them out. Most of the so-called Vaiṣṇavas, they are impersonalists.

Prof. Hopkins: Some, I suspect, are more Vaiṣṇavas than they are smārtas.

Prabhupāda: So, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām?

Brahmānanda:

satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ
yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ
namasyantaś ca māṁ bhaktyā
nitya-yuktā upāsate
(BG 9.14)

"Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion."

Prabhupāda: Perpetually. It is not that I am worshiping now and when I am perfect I become one. That is impersonal.

Prof. Hopkins: But someone who sees devotion as the not just a stage...

Prabhupāda: They say everything one; no devotee, no devotion, and no person. Everything becomes one.

Prof. Hopkins: So that would then be the deciding test, as it were, of whether one were a serious devotee or not.

Prabhupāda: Devotee means serious devotee.

Prof. Hopkins: Not only that one is devoted now, but that one sees the goal as perpetual devotion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nitya-yukta.

Prof. Hopkins: And which never is there...

Prabhupāda: The word is used, nitya-yukta. Nitya-yukta means perpetually. If a devotee is to merge into the existence of the Lord then why this word is used, nitya-yukta. Upāsana. Not only nitya-yukta, upāsana. Upāsana means "you worship Me." As soon as the word is "he worships" that means the worshipable and the mode of worship and the worshiper must be there. That is indicated, nitya-yukta, perpetual. But the Māyāvādīs or these impersonalists, they think that it is temporary. I am devotee temporarily. As soon as I become perfect I become one.

Prof. Hopkins: So that you would see then, in terms of, in terms of some kind of theological structure, you would see that Puruṣottama as always...

Prabhupāda: Uttama, uttama means the best.

Prof. Hopkins: Always superior.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Hopkins: And always...

Prabhupāda: That is the word, puruṣottama. Puruṣottama means supreme or superior. So there must be inferior, otherwise, how he is superior? Is it not?

Prof. Hopkins: Hm.

Prabhupāda: As soon as he is the superior, professor, or the, what is called? Junior or senior. As soon as called senior, there must be junior. Without junior there is no question of senior.

Prof. Hopkins: So that the Puruṣottama always stands beyond, always, is other, in addition to be in also everything that there is.

Prabhupāda: Unless He is eternally there, then how the devotee will eternally, nitya-yukta upāsana, whom to worship? Nitya-yukta upāsana. Unless Puruṣottama is everlasting Puruṣottama then where is the question of worship everlasting? So the Māyāvādīs, they do not understand.

Prof. Hopkins: Well, would you... Do you equate then the impersonalists and the Māyāvādīs? Are they the same?

Prabhupāda: Almost the same.

Prof. Hopkins: At some point I guess they would have to be almost.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Prof. Hopkins: At some point I suppose they would almost have to be because to be an impersonalist you would have to deny the ultimate reality of phenomenon, which would make you a Māyāvādī.

Prabhupāda: They accept this form of God as māyā. Therefore we call them Māyāvādī.

Page Title:Devotee means serious devotee
Compiler:Visnu Murti
Created:04 of Feb, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=1, Let=0
No. of Quotes:1