Prabhupāda: If you miss this opportunity of human form of life... Because we do not know when death is coming. It is not that because I am old, I am nearing death, and you are young, you are not nearing death. Who knows that you may die before me? So there is no certainty. So the principle is that because this human form of life is so important to perfect oneself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he should not waste even a minute. You see? So therefore we don't allow unnecessary sporting. You see? This is simply waste of time. So no illicit sex life, no meat-eating or animal food, no intoxication, no gambling. So every student has to follow these four prin... Otherwise I don't initiate. I don't take cheap students, that "You can do whatever you like, and you pay me some money. I give you some mantra, and you become God." I don't say like that. I don't bluff like that. I have not come to earn money from your country, but I have come to your country to give you something sublime, not to take you, not to take from you, not to exploit you, but to give you something sublime. You see? So that is the third stage, initiation. And then, if you are situated in the third stage nicely—that means if you follow the regulative principles under my direction—then the fourth stage automatically comes. After this third stage, the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, up to eighth, automatically comes. That is gradual development. So in the third stage, if you follow the regulative principle and chant with some prescribed number, numerical strength, then your all misgivings will be over automatically. What are these misgivings? The first misgiving is that I am this body.
Development (Conversations)
Expressions researched:
"developmen"
|"development"
|"development's"
|"developmental"
|"developments"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
The next question is, "So, what is the significance..." I think I've already explained this. "Is there a probationary period for Kṛṣṇa consciousness or does one attain this enlightening according to his own rate of development?" Yes, everything requires little enthusiasm. Just like a boy is going to school with no enthusiasm, and a boy is going to school with nice enthusiasm. One boy is passing in the first class, first division and another boy is failing or he's passing in the third division. So the probation period, of course, I've already explained: to associate with us, the second stage. First stage is faith and respect, the second stage is association. That is probational period. And so far attaining enlightenment according to one's rate of development; that development depends on your enthusiasm; how far you are serious. But one should become very serious. That is the law in every sphere of achievement. So for attaining to the perfectional stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one should be very much enthusiastic. Yes. He must attain to the perfectional stage in this life. And then one should be patient also. Enthusiasm does not mean if I attain something immediately the result is immediate. No. The result may be delayed but we should not be disturbed. But we must go on working with enthusiasm. This is called patience. Enthusiasm, patience and confidence. Because we believe in Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says that if you do this you get this result. Therefore I must have confidence. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that simply by understanding Him, what He is, how does He come, how does He walk, one immediately gets passport to enter into the spiritual kingdom. So we must have confidence that I'm working in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I must go back to Godhead, back to home. This is confidence. So enthusiasm, patience, confidence. And ... yaḥ syād ... niscyad... tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt. Simply enthusiasm but no work. But you must be engaged in the prescribed duties of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And you must keep always yourself in the association of devotees. These things are, I mean to say, impetus for development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: So the florist is given a certain tract of land free, and let him produce flower and make business. But the quantity of flower I require for my temple, he must supply daily. Similarly, the bandsman, he should come and play band. Everything was on land distribution. That was the system. And tax was paid to the government. Not by assessment. Uh, assessment... Whatever your land production is there, you give to the government one-fourth. That's all. If you have produced 1,000 mound grains, you have to give to the government 250 mounds. And if you have produced 100, then you give 25. So there is no question of harassment. Whatever is the production is there... So these profession is accepted from Vedic time, different kinds of men engaged in different kinds of activities. Maybe a florist, maybe a potter, maybe a cobbler, maybe anything, grain producer... So many, society requires so many things. So according to Vedic system, there is a class, and Bhāgavata says that "You are engaged in your occupational duty; so whether you are getting success by such occupational duty?" The Vedic system does not condemn anyone. "You are a potter. Oh, you are lower." No. You are as good as a priest because you are doing your duty. That's all right. Never condemns. This is development of later age when the so-called brāhmaṇas became, I mean to say, treacherous.
Prabhupāda: We don't this dancing as an art. It is automatic. We dance, we cry, we chant, we laugh not by artificially learning it. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. As you begin to chant, naturally you feel for dancing. So it is not taught artificially. It comes simultaneously with development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Interviewer: What is the hand attire which you are wearing? What is the meaning of this?
Prabhupāda: I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa whenever there is opportunity, and there are beads. So I am chanting on beads. There are 108 beads and each bead we chant sixteen names, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. So my disciples, they chant at least sixteen rounds.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Pradyumna: Can the boys downstairs bring them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they were to go to see some other temple which is called Śeṣayī Temple. So although I was new man, I did not like to go to see the Śeṣayī Temple. I decided that "I shall hear." So at that time I was new, so all other, some of my important godbrothers, they were sitting like this, and I was sitting. At last, you see. But he knew that "This boy is new." Everyone has gone, all others except a few selected godbrothers. So he marked it that "This boy is interested to hear me." So hearing is very important. Hearing. Just like Arjuna heard from Kṛṣṇa. Come on. (People entering) (Break) ...because I was serious for hearing, and therefore now I am serious about kīrtanaṁ, means speaking, or preaching. Do you follow what I say? Yes. So one who is serious about hearing, he can become a future nice preacher. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ. Next stage is developed. That is development. If one has actually heard nicely, then he will speak nicely. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ smaraṇaṁ. Then consciousness will automatically develop because when you speak or you hear, unless your mind is concentrated, your consciousness is right, you cannot rightly hear or speak. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam. And then the development, "How I shall serve Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is so loving.
Prabhupāda: Friendship. That is also... There are five kinds of relationship. Just like "God is great." That is simply feeling the greatness of God. Then, when he feels exactly how God is great, then naturally there will be an inclination to serve God. That is called servitude. First neutrality estimation... That is called śānta-rasa, neutral, no activity but simply appreciating, "God is great," simply appreciation. And then servitude. When the appreciation is complete, "Oh, why not serve God? He is so great. He is giving us so many things. Let me return something. Let me do some service of Him." Servitude. That is further development of the appreciation of the greatness of God. And then further development is friendship. Friendship means... Service means I ask you, "Please give me a glass of water." You give me. And friendship means you are thinking, "How my friend will be... Now he may be wanting a glass of water." So before asking me, if you give me, "I think you may require a glass of water," that is friendship. Friendship means feeling friend's welfare always. Suhṛt. Friendship is not simply chatting. Friendship means thinking, "How my friend will be happy?" This is friendship. Then that friendship, when further developed, that is parenthood. Just like parents, they have no other consideration. They want to see, "How my child will be happy always?" And further development is conjugal love, just like man and woman, male and female, that love.
Prabhupāda: Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was finance minister in the government of Nawab Hussain Shah in Bengal. But when Lord Caitanya started His movement, he was captivated and he resigned his service, government service and joined Him. And he wrote immense literature, Gosvāmīs. And that Desai was talking that Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, he says, rūpa-raghunātha-pade haibe ākuti kabe hāma bujhaba se yugala-pīriti: conjugal love of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, one can understand when they go through the literatures presented by these Gosvāmīs. So his first book is Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Devotion of, Nectar of Devotion. That is very authorized book. Quotation from various Vedic literature about Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa and the different stages of relationship with Kṛṣṇa, śānta-rasa, dāsya-rasa, admiration. God is Great. This is also one stage, appreciating the greatness of God. Then further development, dāsya-rasa, willing to serve. Oh! God is so great, and I must serve service because everyone of us are serving somebody. So why not serve the Supreme? Nobody is free from service because we are constitutionally the servant. Either we become the servant of the Great or māyā. Just like in any condition of our lives, we have to abide by the laws of the state. If he says that we don't abide then come to prisonhouse. You will be forced. Similarly, māyā and Kṛṣṇa. If we don't abide by Kṛṣṇa, then come to māyā. He cannot be free. That is not our position. Freedom is frustration.
Prabhupāda: Some paper. (laughs) So inside-outside work must be done. Bahyābhyantaram śuciḥ. You know that verse?
- apavitraḥ pavitro vā
- sarvāvasthaṁ gato 'pi vā
- yaḥ smaret puṇḍerīkākṣam
- sa bahyābhyantaram śuciḥ
So we have to develop this center from outside work and inside work. Outside work means to draw sympathy of the people, to draw money for development. This is also required. We have got a very big scheme. It is not possible that by one man's earning we can do that. It is not possible. We require millions of dollars for developing. If we want to construct here temples, at least seven temples, nicely, so that requires huge amount. So outsiders' sympathy must be there. There is no scarcity of money in your country. Simply they have to be educated that "We are doing something very nice. Please come and help." And that will be nice, in my opinion, that let him come, stay here for one month, again go out for two months, again come here. And he sees how things are going on. He suggests. Now you decide whether his suggestion will be accepted or not. Then I am there, of course. If there is some suggestion, good suggestion. then my order will be final. In that way we have to develop this.
Hayagrīva: Well, whatever situation you want to set up.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I think this will be nice because if he does outside propaganda, that will help development of this center. You make nice, what is called? Prospectus? I gave you the idea, that what is the idea of this center and make plans and where we want to construct temple, the, what is called, design of the temple, and make nicely and put before the people, and they have already known that Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is going on. So there are so many rich people in our country. If somebody comes forward, we can make very nice progress very quickly. So we have to make some propaganda amongst them. Actually it is the nicest possible thing. Simply they have to be convinced. That's a fact.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Sister Mary: It's a matter of your attitude.
Prabhupāda: Not attitude. Development of my God consciousness. Attitude may be artificial. But it is actual development of God consciousness. God consciousness is there in everybody. It requires simply to be developed. Just like a child. A child has got love within her, within his heart. But when he is young, it develops. It develops. And the girl, boy, automatically becomes attached because that propensity has developed. It is not an artificial thing. It was already there. It has to be developed. So God consciousness is there in everyone's heart. Otherwise, how these boys are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? Unless Kṛṣṇa was there within. Artificially you cannot force them, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours.
Dr. Weir: But if you accept its existence then it's present in everybody. Exactly what you're saying. Whether they utilize it, whether, as you call it, uncovered, or to the degree to which they are conscious of it, is a different thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a question of consciousness, development of consciousness.
Dr. Weir: That's where your line is so very good in saying that the real evolution of man's mind has been his ability to produce more and more the functions of whatever the mind may be. But the mind is just as indivisible as God. We know what the brain is, but we don't know what the mind is. Yet more and more of it under conscious control instead of being irrationally eruptive(?).
Prabhupāda: But there is the summum bonum of that realization. That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante, jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births of this mental evolutionary process, when actually he becomes wise he becomes God conscious and surrenders to God. That is real evolution(?). That evolution will go on. But when it comes to the summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). God is cause of all causes. That is final realization. Unless one comes to that point he has not come to the perfection of evolutionary process of the mind and intelligence.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Their individuality becomes different in accordance with the development of consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: Oh. The soul before the development of consciousness...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore, when one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there is no difference. (break) Because their aim is at that time how to... (break) ...and that is nice.
Bob: But they are the same because they are flowers.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But he does not know. That is... Therefore we call these rascal. Why we are calling these scientists, philosophers, politician rascal? Because they have got brain but they're misusing. Therefore they have been called duṣkṛtinaḥ. You have got brain, you can utilize it for smuggling and you can utilize it also how to understand Kṛṣṇa. The same brain.
Indian: But the development of my economy...
Prabhupāda: Development... If you become miscreants by utilizing your better brain, then what is the use? You are going to hell. This brain has no meaning. Misuser brain. Brain means to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is brain.
Ian Polsen: Yes.
Indian: Perform his duty.
Prabhupāda: He does not know what is his duty. He talks of so many big, big things, duty. But if I ask, "What is your duty?" he cannot explain. So these things will not help.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why they are called development of new departments of knowledge. With the rise of necessity, they develop new departments of searching out the unknown.
Prabhupāda: What is the use of this development? It will be problem after all. What is the use of such knowledge?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They fail to see that point.
Prabhupāda: That means they are rascals. They do not have clear eyesight, clear insight. They do not know whether they are degrading or developing. Just like the flies, with great force they will go into the fire. They think they are making progress, they are going to the light. They think; otherwise how they are going? Such kind of advancement. They are going to die, be annihilated, and they still, "Oh, we are going force, by force we are going to the light. Here is darkness, there is light." This is their philosophy. Just like a mad driver drinking drives recklessly to die, that's all. But he is thinking, "Oh, I am going with so much great speed." He does not know that he is going to die after few minutes. And that is their development.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (2): He is the director of the (indistinct) of Hindu and Buddhist religion, from Department of Religious Affairs. His duty is to maintain and look after the development of (indistinct) expecting that all people of Indonesia that has to follow any kind of religions (indistinct) Christians, because we have also in charge for the Christianity, we have also in charge for the Muslim, or Islam, and we have also in charge for the Catholic and we have also in charge for other...
Prabhupāda: Very good idea. This is very nice.
Prabhupāda: It has connection, if somebody was not very important and now he has become important, so the logic is how this man can be important? This logic. That because the mother was naked in the childhood, therefore she should not put on any garment. This is nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya. We change according to the circumstances. You cannot say that this must remain like this.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is also not because of the development of consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Everything is development of consciousness. So when one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that is perfect. Consciousness is there even in the tree, but that is not developed. When you cut the tree, it feels. Even a child their consciousness is not developed. Sometimes operation in the body of a child does not require anaesthetic, because they do not feel much. Can go on surgical operation on the child's body and they will feel little. Because the consciousness is not developed.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So according to the consciousness...
Prabhupāda: Development.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the modern science, they say when one becomes old, the memory becomes short and then they tend to... Prabhupāda: Yes. The body has changed. Therefore you have to accept that body has changed. Therefore next conclusion is when this body is lost he gets another body. Change of body. Seasonal changes. That one verse in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ, acceptance of another body. Then these modern scientists, they do not know this. They sometimes explain medical science, that blood corpuscles are changing, do they not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are sometimes white, they say, suppose when I am injured, my external something hurts. They say the white blood corpuscles are responsible to protect the body. But when the white blood corpuscles is not enough, then infection normally occurs. Prabhupāda: Anyway there is change of corpuscles. And with the change of corpuscles there is change of body. That is scientific.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then why is it in the Vaivarta Purāṇa, after traveling 8,400,000 species of life, we get this human form of life? Is that contradiction with the...?
Prabhupāda: No. Because in the lower form of life, the progress is by the laws of nature, and in the human form of life, you get consciousness development. Therefore you have got discretion. The other forms, they have no discretion, one after another.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. My point being the... Some human beings, they come without traveling through these 8,400,000 species.
Prabhupāda: Then he can come.
Prabhupāda: The Industrial Revolution means revolution of the śūdras. That is Industrial Revolution. Increasing the number of śūdras. These scientists, they are also śūdras. Because they have no real knowledge. Brāhmaṇa means one who has got real knowledge. Brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. And this industrial development means technologists; they are śūdras.
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: But they have taken the position of brāhmaṇas in the society.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They are never as... They are always working. How they can take the position of the brāhmaṇa? Brāhmaṇa's position is to teach brāhmaṇa knowledge, brahma-jñāna. That is brāhmaṇa.
Paramahaṁsa: Prior to the growth of technology...
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there was technology. But not in such large scale. Village technology. There was a blacksmith. You want a knife. You take one piece of steel, and he will do it, phut phut phut phut, and he'll put in the fire, and everything do. And now you are manufacturing these cutleries, cutleries, in larger scale. So they are śūdras. Similarly any factory, it is a combination of śūdras. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age, all are śūdras." Only we are trying to become brāhmaṇa. Otherwise all śūdras. So therefore there is no adjustment.
Prabhupāda: They accept one energy. We accept also that. But they, defect is they are beginning from the material. That is their method. Just like this weather is beginning from the light and gradually it is becoming dark. So darkest part or the dark part is called material. But the dark is beginning from light, not the light is beginning from dark. That is their method. They are thinking that from matter, consciousness is coming. Now consciousness is there. When it is covered, degraded, that is unconsciousness. So material means when the consciousness is forgetful of Kṛṣṇa. That is material. Material means gradual development of forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa. That is material. And spiritual means full consciousness of Kṛṣṇa. Is it clear? Try to understand this. Darkness is coming from light. Where the light is not visible that is called darkness. This is not the nature of the sun, this covering, cloudy nature. That is not the... The nature of sun is light, but by the energy of the sun another thing is temporary created which is called mist or darkness. This is temporary. This is not permanent nature. Therefore material nature is temporary and spiritual nature is permanent. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to get out of this temporary nature and go to the spiritual nature, permanent nature. Nobody wants also this temporary nature. Nobody likes this cloudy atmosphere.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is... The cattle food is food for the non-civilized man. If you claim to be civilized, you cannot eat.
Buddhist Monk (1): (laughs) Live and let live. That's what I have been asking people wherever I go. They talk of culture, civilization, progress, development, living standards, education, equality, freedom, lots of things. I asked them to define this, and I asked them, "The animals are of two types: the carnivorous and the vegetarian. Of course, the carnivorous looks even fiercer. But where has one found in the forest so many thousands of animals slaughtered and lying at random? But man today, in the name of progress and civilization..."
Prabhupāda: Very, very good. Yes.
Prabhupāda: There is one moral instruction by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was a great minister during the time of Mahārāja Candragupta. So he was honorary Prime Minister in the empire. So he has a book of moral instruction. So he says in that moral instruction, who is a learned man. So he gives the description of a learned man, that: mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Mātṛvat. "Just treat all other women except your wife as your mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Loṣṭa means as there are so many pebbles lying on the street, you don't care for it, similarly, others' property, others' money you should treat just like these pebbles lying on the street or the garbage lying on the street. Don't touch it. So mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. And treat all living entities as you want to be treated. If one has got these three qualifications, he is learned man. He does not say, one who has got this BAC, DAC degrees, and so on, so on, so on. No. The result of his education is to be seen by three manifestations: treating all women as mother; treating others' money, property, as garbage, as rubbish in the street; and treating all living entities as you want to be treated yourself. If one has attained these three development of knowledge, he is learned. There is no question of literary education. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. So if we covet other's wife, if we eat meat, if we indulge in intoxication, if we indulge in gambling, we are polluting the whole society.
Prabhupāda: That, that, that difference is due to development of consciousness. The human body, human body, you get developed consciousness. Just like this tree. It is also a living entity, but it's consciousness is not yet fructified. If you cut the tree, it does not resist. But it resists in a very small degree. That is proved by the scientists. The Sir Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he's also a very great scientist. He has made machine: when you cut the tree, it feels and it is recorded in the machine.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Prabhupāda: And for the animals we can see, when one kills the animals, it resists, it cries, it makes great sound, horrible. So it is the question of development of consciousness. But the, a soul is there.
Prabhupāda: But therefore if that appreciation is there, that avināśi tu tad viddhi yena..., the consciousness is spreading from the soul, so you have to appreciate there must be something from which consciousness comes. That you cannot deny.
Karandhara: They say it is biochemical development.
Prabhupāda: No, but then you replace consciousness by a biochemical combination. That you cannot do.
Devotee (2): When the baby is born dead.
Karandhara: But just because they say, "Because we can't do it yet..."
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You cannot do, therefore you are rascal. You're talking all nonsense. You cannot do it, how you speak?
Karandhara: Up till two hundred years ago they weren't able to fly...
Prabhupāda: Want two hundred..., no, we want immediately, we don't want blank check. (devotees laugh) Rascal blank check.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa-bhakti development (Hindi—break) ...creation. (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Before creation, the kṛṣṇa-bhakti was in Vaikuṇṭha (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: After creation it came from...
Prabhupāda: Tene brahma hṛdā, ādi-kavaye. Tene brahma. Brahma means before the creation. Aham evasam agre. Before creation Kṛṣṇa was there, and it was, the kṛṣṇa-bhakti was injected within the heart of Brahmā. (Hindi—break) ...three to four hours at night and one hour or one and half hour, altogether five hours. Gosvāmīs (Hindi) ...brahma-bhūtaḥ. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26).
Dr. Patel: Once upon a time the scientists of the world had considered this religion, belief in God to be bosh. Now the scientists have started thinking, and thinking very rightly that there is nothing else but God as you have said. That is the greatest thing that they are doing today.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that I am explaining. The sound is there. God consciousness is there, sound as the God consciousness, but in different phases the development is there differently. That is the principle. Everyone has got God consciousness. There is no doubt about it.
Dr. Patel: We come to you, sir, to serve your disciples in the best way we can do because to serve a disciple is to serve God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, that means it is being developed. That śānta-rasa is being developed to dāsya-rasa.
Dr. Patel: But sometimes disciples don't like our service.
Prabhupāda: They are children. They are children. You see, they are coming from foreign countries. They are being trained up. There may be some deficiencies, but this is the scientific progress. When from śānta-rasa, one develops dāsya-rasa, wants to give some service, there is further development. Then further service, not as ordinary service, but as intimate friend. Then, as paternal, then conjugal. These are the different developments. The principle is there, śānta-rasa, but they are manifested in different stages of development.
Yaśomatīnandana: Hyderabad is easier because the people are very much in favor.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And Vṛndāvana they gave it very late. After one year. Vṛndāvana. Because the government doesn't want further development of Vṛndāvana. They are neglecting the city in such a way that no gentleman will go there. The old city... Formerly, it was planned that "So many pilgrims come here. It should be nicely developed." But now they have given up. They have purposefully kept so nasty. You have seen the city?
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: So nasty that nobody will go there.
Prabhupāda: That is by intelligence. We are superior to animals by superior intelligence, not by... Just like a human child. His father is superior than the child because the father has got superior intelligence, not that the child has no soul. The child talks so many nonsense things, but we take it, "After all, it is child." Nobody cares whether it is symmetrical or not, because his intelligence is not developed. So even the animals have no developed intelligence, that does not mean it has no soul. Yes. The evolution of different types of body means evolution of intelligence. Just like a flower, in the bud stage, the flower is there. But the fragrance or the beauty has not yet developed. So unless the things are there, how it can develop? Similarly, the soul is there in every living entity, but according to the development of the body, evolution of the body, the intelligence becomes manifest. Otherwise, what is the meaning of education? Education means to develop the intelligence. That is education.
Prabhupāda: Any education. You train a child to the standard of that education and he will develop his intelligence. A child who does not know what is what, the father says "This is... My dear child, it is watch." Once, twice, thrice, you call, "Watch, watch, watch," he learns, "This is watch." Jaya, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi, aside) So one has to awaken the intelligence. So that supreme intelligence is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When one comes to the point of supreme intelligence, that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like a rose flower, when it comes to the full blooming stage, it is very beautiful, fragrant, like that. So when a living entity comes to the understanding of his constitutional position, what he is actually, and acts like that, that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then it is full development.
He also saw His different plenary portions and parts of the plenary portions, namely His different incarnations also, and he specifically observed the unwanted miseries of the conditioned souls, who are bewildered by the external energy. And at last he saw the remedial measure for the conditioned souls, namely, the process of devotional service. It is a great transcendental science and begins with the process of hearing and chanting the name, fame, glory, etc., of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Revival of the dormant affection or love of Godhead does not depend on the mechanical system of hearing and chanting, but it solely and wholly depends on the causeless mercy of the Lord. When the Lord is fully satisfied with the sincere efforts of the devotee, He may endow him with His loving transcendental service. But even with the prescribed forms of hearing and chanting, there is at once mitigation of the superfluous and unwanted miseries of material existence. Such mitigation of material affection does not wait for development of transcendental knowledge. Rather, knowledge is dependent on devotional service for the ultimate realization of the Supreme Truth.
Guru-gaurāṅga: In that agricultural report it said that if they were to eat all the grains that they give to the cows and animals, they could get twenty times more calories than by eating meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Wrong civilization, rascal civilization. And this is due to this rascaldom, nationalism, "This is my land." And at any moment he will be kicked out. Still, he claims, "It is my land." Ahaṁ mameti, janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). This is the illusion. Nothing belongs to him; still he is fighting, "This is mine. This is mine." "I" and "mine." Identifying himself with this body, "I", and wrongly conceiving that "This is mine." This is the basic principle of wrong civilization. Both things are... Nothing belongs to him. Suppose I have come here in Switzerland. If I remain here for one month and I claim, "Oh, this is mine," what is this? So similarly, I come as guest. Everyone comes as guest in the womb of his mother and lives here for fifty years. He is claiming, "It is mine." When, when, when it became yours? The land was long, long time before your birth. How it became yours? But they have no sense. "It is mine." "Fight." "My land, my nation, my family, my society." In this way, wasting time. These things have been introduced by these western mlecchas. In the Vedic civilization there is no such thing as nationalism. You won't find. Have you seen in the Bhagavad-gītā any word, "nationalism?" No such thing. This is the original ideas of the tribes. In the jungle there is... Just like in Africa there are still groups of tribes. This is most crude idea of civilization, nationalism. This is tribalized. It is nothing but development of just tribalism. And eating also the same. They are not advanced in civilization. This nationalism is another form of tribalism, that's all.
Guru-gaurāṅga: But it is just developed, but it is not a different body.
Prabhupāda: No. Developed means different body. Development means different body. They cannot say it is not different body. Then if it is not different, then go to childhood again. That means they're not human being. Human being means with logic. According to their definition, man is rational animal. They're not even rational. Like cats and dogs. There is no rationality. Cats and dogs also they have got rationality. Logic plus authority, Kṛṣṇa says. How you can deny? That means they don't agree with Kṛṣṇa's instruction. You see? This logic, I am not giving this logic. This logic is given by Kṛṣṇa. So unless... The difficulty is that unless they accept the authority, it is very difficult. Logic is there. The authority is there.
Jyotirmayī: He is explaining that what he would like, that all these young Christian that he knows, it's not that he wants them to stop Christianity but to take in Kṛṣṇa consciousness what is missing in Christianity to help them in their own development.
Prabhupāda: Nothing is missing. Only, if I be frank enough, they are not following Christianity.
Jyotirmayī: (French) They said that then if Christianity is complete, then what is the need of coming here? What is missing there that we would find here?
Prabhupāda: To tell you that you are not following. (laughter)
Priest: But then there is no need to dress as you dress.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Priest: Why do you dress in that way which is an Indian way and not the European way?
Prabhupāda: Then why Christian go there?
Priest: They should not.
Prabhupāda: Then we should not.
Nitāi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is there some gradual development in all those nine processes of devotional service, beginning from hearing?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). This chanting and hearing should be in the association of devotees. First of all, one must have faith that chanting is good. Then he should chant in the society of the devotees. Then it will develop. He can chant anywhere. But if he chants along... Therefore saṅkīrtana. Bahubhir milita. Many devotees, chanting together, that is called saṅkīrtana. So one, our movement is saṅkīrtana movement, many devotees together would chant the holy name of God. Then it is very quickly successful. Just like a person who comes to our center in the association of the devotees, after few weeks, he also becomes devotee. Quickly. And there are many others, they are seeing that there is a group like this, but because they do not come, they do not understand. Therefore the quick development process is to execute devotional service in the association of devotees, sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83).
Pṛthu Putra: He says he doesn't give any special meaning to Buddha. Sometimes Buddha is with them, sometimes Buddha is a concept of God like the Christianity they call God, or Buddha is all this disciplic succession. He doesn't give any special meaning to the word Buddha.
Prabhupāda: No, no, buddha, actually buddha means knowledge, "one who knows," that is the meaning. So that is existing always. Now, we are talking your (sic:) Jain Buddha. Jain Buddha. No? What is the...?
Karandhara: Zen. Zen's a later development. The school of Zen started...
Prabhupāda: So we are trying to study this Zen Buddha. Buddha means, ordinarily, knowledge. Budhā bhāva-saman... (break) (French)
Karandhara: The Zen school is a liberalization of the old Buddhist doctrines. Previously, hundreds of years ago, to completely follow the Buddhist path one had to renounce all activity. He had to go away from civilization and live in hermitage. Zen...
Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa. Finish everything.
Professor Durckheim: Is something not very agreeable. It's all the authority like this, the not understanding, the not loving, the authority. You see? There are so many fathers who say in their family, "I don't know what you are talking about freedom. In my house everybody can do what I like." So they are very much under this spell today. So I just say this because it's very funny also in this trend of development of religion of today...
Prabhupāda: It is not religion. It is fact. It is not... Religion is sometimes explained as sentiment, but this is fact, that father and son... Without father there is no existence of son, and without son there is no meaning of father. This is science. This is not religion. This is science. As soon as you speak of father means he must have a son, or most. And as soon as a son, he must have a father. So this is a question of "must," not sentiment.
Dr. Harrap: Well, you should... The advice is that you keep your general level of fats down, but of the fats that you take, you should increase the ratio between polyunsaturated and saturated. But there is quite a development of milk industry in parts of India. The complex near Annakadana(?), I think, is a very good example of this, isn't it, of the, I believe, the cooperative dairy complex.
Prabhupāda: No, practically also we see. Formerly big, big saintly person they used to live in the forest, and their livelihood was fruits and milk. They used to keep cows and draw milk from them, and whatever fruits are available in the forest, and they have given us these literatures, Vyāsadeva. So the... He has written Mahābhārata, one hundred thousand verses and similarly, this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he has given us eighteen thousand verses. And each verse is full of so grave meaning that if you study, it will take months and months together. So they developed such nice brain simply by drinking milk and fruits.
Guest (2): You should read the book. I have a very good friend, a brāhmaṇa friend in the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. How do you view the development of the potential for nuclear explosions in India?
Prabhupāda: Yes, from the revealed scripture we can understand from... You have got the first part of Bhāgavatam?
Cāru: Yes, right here.
Prabhupāda: The Aśvatthāmā released the brahmāstra?
Satsvarūpa: That's in three I think.
Prabhupāda: Similar nuclear weapon was there. It was called brahmāstra. So when this brahmāstra was released by one Aśvatthāmā, the same symptom of nuclear weapon... Kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa mahā bāho. That is...
Satsvarūpa: We don't have that volume.
Prabhupāda: Why you are lacking? You have got enough books. I inquired from you in the morning. You said, "Yes, we have got enough stock."
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (4): Is it possible to develop some such kind of psyche?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Arjuna was not willing to fight. Then he developed; "Yes, I must fight for Kṛṣṇa." That is development.
Guest (4): So there is no conflict between the...
Prabhupāda: Gṛhastha is also āśrama. It is as good as sannyāsa āśrama. You can accept any āśrama suitable for you, but āśrama means cultivation of spiritual knowledge. That is the difference between āśrama and ordinary house. Now, this building is called temple, and the next building is called house. Why? The building is the same. But it is meant for cultivating spiritual knowledge. Therefore it is called temple, to understand God. The other house is meant for eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Therefore they are house. So you can change your house into temple provided you try to understand God. Then it is āśrama. Otherwise it is house.
Prabhupāda: Every individual being has knowledge. Even a small ant, it has got knowledge. Knowledge... Of course, development of knowledge according to the body, but a living entity, even the trees, they have got knowledge. They grow... When there is some block, they do not grow that side; they grow this side. Is it not?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So every living being has got knowledge. The basic knowledge, how to maintain, every one has got.
Professor: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: No, knowledge... Living entity, by constitutional position, has got knowledge, but in connection with this material world, when this living entity comes to this material world, so according to the body, the development of knowledge differs.
Prabhupāda: Then that is his mistake. Just like a man does not know what is law, but that is no excuse.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says that he can accept that man is born perfect, but that his development is imperfect, but he cannot accept that man is born imperfect.
Prabhupāda: No, that we don't say. Therefore man is advised to associate with perfect so that he can keep his perfectness.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says, "The problem is there are so many millions of people, but there are so few perfect persons."
Prabhupāda: One perfect person is sufficient to teach thousands of imperfect persons.
Prabhupāda: Some way or other, if you go to God, that is very good. With motive or without motive, you have come to God, that is piety. That is better than to become impious. Impious men, they do not go to God. Just like nowadays nobody goes to church. Church are selling. Simply... Temples also. So now there are in India so many township development. They are constructing very fashionable houses, but no temples. Nobody is constructing temple. At the present moment everybody has become disinterested with anything religion and God. All over the world. That is degradation. Especially I am seeing in Bombay, that Juhu scheme, very nice houses are being manufactured. You have all seen. But nobody is constructing a temple. The modern economists, they say "nonproductive endeavor"—means there is no income. Simply you have to spend money for maintaining the temple. So they are not interested in nonproductive things. So this is degradation of the human society. Either as Christian or Hindu or Mohammedan, nobody is interested. A few may be interested.
Prabhupāda: So if by chance there is baby, killing. Is that the conclusion?
Guest (1): No, our conclusions just say that there is a critical period in the development of the baby that if it does not get any good nutrition at that time, then he's likely to be retarded in many respects.
Prabhupāda: Therefore?
Guest (1): The number of cells that he comes equipped with is less than the normal and number of enzymes that must be equipped in certain proportions do not come in the right proportion so that the later functioning is not to the mark. Therefore full and cognitive ability is very much affected. So what we are trying to do is—hopefully in the next five years we can do it—is to define a critical period. We do not know yet what is a critical period. We are talking of a very large time, large span of time, but most probably it is only a few months period in which if the baby is supplied very well, at least then our system will not be affected. His body may be affected. By the lunch program in a school they have been able to improve very much the physical characteristics of the body but if the mental mischief has been done, it is done. It cannot be corrected later on.
Prabhupāda: Nobody takes care. The man also grows very small. There is no food, there is no soil. Poverty lives. Daridra-doṣa guṇa-nāśe, when a person becomes poverty-stricken, all his quality goes away. He might have very good qualification but if... (break) Unfortunately, being misguided, this position of opulence, they are misusing it, and therefore becoming hippies. Simply misusing it. Instead of utilizing the position for development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are misusing it. So timely the movement has come to your country. Just try to apply in your practical life, preach all over the world, at least all over your own country. Here also, the Australians, they have got opulence. Try to relieve them. You are American or Australian?
Jayadharma: I'm an Australian, Prabhupāda.
Paramahaṁsa: Australian, he says.
Prabhupāda: Australian, that's nice. Learn this art and preach. There is good potency in your country. You are also not poverty. Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Rājarṣi means very rich, kings. He never said, "All the bungees understood it. All the wretched class understood it." He never taught. It is meant for the leaders of the society, opulent kings and leaders. It is meant for them.
Carol: Would the intellect be helpful in knowing God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you have got the necessary intellect, then you are no better than the animals. The animals have no intellect to understand God, but the human being has got that intellect. That is the distinction between animal and human being. (break) Sleeping, the human being also sleeps; they also sleep. Then sex enjoyment: the human being also enjoy, and the animals also enjoy. And protection from fear or becoming fearful—the human being is also fearful and arranges for protection, and the animal also does. So far the primary necessities of life, that is equal in animal and human being. But the human being has a special intellect developed than the animals that he can understand what he is, what is God, what is this cosmic manifestation, and what is the aim of life, how we should conduct. These things are prerogatives for the human being. The animals have no such prerogative. So if we do not utilize these special intellectual activities, then we remain animal. We do not make any development.
Yogi Bhajan: Yeah. They all come Sunday. They come to our Guru Dvara on every Sunday. People participate. We have our magazine, and this was our anniversary renaisance, which we issued... Rather, I was planning if some of your ācārya can come and I can give them a program for Kṛṣṇa consciousness development and authoritative human aspects of Gītā, which I teach in UCLA, they can participate and start courses in that. Because everybody is special in certain areas, and I thought that was a better idea. However...
Prabhupāda: These pictures of...?
Yogi Bhajan: This is Golden Temple, Amritsar.
Prabhupāda: Amritsar.
Prabhupāda: Hawaii, yes.
Siddha-svarūpa: The Hawaiians could never develop. They didn't want development.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Now they are still here or they have left?
Siddha-svarūpa: They are here, but they've mixed up with other races. There's many mixture in races. And most of the local people who live here, they're a mixture of Hawaiian, Japanese... (break)
Prabhupāda: Then everything will go on nice.
Jayādvaita: The scientists say that material nature is supreme, but because we're unable to accept nature as the supreme entity, different cultures have gotten different ideas of God. They've made these things up. The Greeks had one idea, the Romans had another idea, the Indians had one idea. So we've accepted that instead of accepting nature, although nature is actually the supreme.
Prabhupāda: No, God is realized only by the devotees. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). So actually, God is realized through devotion. There is no other way. So in the proportion of one's development of devotional spirit, one realizes God. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). The proportion, devotion, required. But real process is devotion.
Prabhupāda: Development.
Mr. Surface: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So he is dependent on the family affection. Then economic impetus go on. And I think he has given another proposition that if man can easily live, then he will not work. That is the nature of man. Therefore a rich man's son, he does not work. Because he has father's money, he can spend. In America the boys are rich man's son, and therefore so many boys are not working. They have got easy income, and they are not working. And because there is no proper work, they are becoming hippies. They are manufacturing independence. "Idle brain is a devil's workshop."
Guest: Do you think that this hinders with their development?
Prabhupāda: No. Spirit soul is the same thing either in wealthy man or poor man. The spirit soul is not different. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,
- vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
- brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
- śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
- paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
- (BG 5.18)
If Yogananda thinks like that—"Only rich man is able to practice yoga"—that is wrong. A poor man can also practice yoga. Because yoga means connecting, linking up with the Supreme. So as spirit soul, everyone is fit to connect himself with the Supreme. That is the statement in the Bhāgavatam.
Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in America there's a great deal of material development but very little spiritual development.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, we have given you the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that material development is very good provided it is added with spiritual consciousness. Zero is very good when it is added with one. Otherwise, thousands of zeros together is still zero. But if there is one, then it increases value. If you have got ten zeros, so together, ten zero, it is zero. But if you add one, that ten zeros means—some millions?
Rāmeśvara: No, billion.
Prabhupāda: Billion. So zero is there, and one is there. You add together. Then the value will increase. Otherwise you remain zero. And because the so much material opulence is zero, therefore the hippies are disappointed. It is zero.
Prabhupāda: 1890. (Bengali)
Lalitā: ...foreign exchange, for the development of India...(Bengali) ...that how it is... "Can you prove?" And yes. You can send immediately? Everything is in open.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I have all the receipts with me from the bank transfers.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) This is meant for the executive head of the state. It is meant for. In the Bhagavad-gītā, Fourth Chapter, it is stated,
- imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
- proktavān aham avyayam
- vivasvān manave prāhur
- manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt
- (BG 4.1)
Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Rājarṣayo. It is meant for the rājarṣis. So Indira is in the position of rāja. If she becomes a ṛṣi, then it will be successful. Then it will be successful. (Bengali) ...that "You have got the position of royalty. You become a saintly lady. Then your scheme will be all successful." That is required.
Lalitā: "And for the development of this country I can bring foreign exchange for..."
Prabhupāda: No, why this?
Lalitā: (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: "So we have already about six branches in India..."
Jayapatāka: Eight.
Prabhupāda: "Eight. And all the development is being done by foreign exchange. So it can be continued if I get encouragement by the government. So I shall be very much pleased to see you in this connection."
Lalitā: "I need your advices for this development." (Bengali) "With the help of government in villages."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I... Just that one point. In my speaking to Ganesha's(?) also, even when we tell them we are bringing huge amounts of foreign exchange from abroad, they at once say, "But how do you get this money abroad?"
Prabhupāda: We sell our books.
Brahmānanda: "His mission is that everyone should become a guru and preach all over the world the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. So we are doing this very faithfully and it is becoming effective. I think in India also if some vigorous activity is done for awakening the Kṛṣṇa consciousness of the people under your leadership, it will be very effective. So we have already eight branches in India, and all development is being done by foreign exchange. It can be continued if I get encouragement by the government. So I shall be very much pleased to see you in this connection. I have written about fifty books of four hundred pages, such as Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam..."
Prabhupāda: "Four hundred pages each."
Brahmānanda: "I have written about fifty books of four hundred pages each, such as Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, and these books are very popular in foreign countries, Europe and America. By sales proceeds I am bringing foreign exchange."
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Lalitā: (Bengali) ...development India. (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: So you can give this letter to Lalitā.
Lalitā: I think I will go to Prema's office and give it to Sesha and make an appointment.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to give the letter?
Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that?
Lalitā: This is all that he should do. (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: Read again, if there is to be corrected. Just hear, everyone.
Prabhupāda: "Your well-wisher." (Bengali) Word is already there. Sādhu śāstra guru vākya, tinete karīyā aikya. (Bengali) So immediately type it and give it to her.
Jayapatāka: Where it says that "I am bringing foreign exchange," in the end, "by selling my books I am bringing foreign exchange," it's for India's development?
Prabhupāda: For developing my scheme here.
Jayapatāka: And Gopāla Kṛṣṇa mentioned the point that... We're bringing foreign exchange. Whether there should be any word that also signifies that we have local support also?
Prabhupāda: Local support, that is understood. (Bengali) So our "books popular in foreign countries as well as in India." We are getting money also by these books.
Brahmānanda: When you talk about "I... So we have already eight branches in India. All development is being done by foreign exchange. It can be continued if I get encouragement by the government."
Prabhupāda: "And foreign assistance, about one hundred men." That's all.
Lalitā: (Bengali)
Brahmānanda: "Foreign assistance, numbering about one hundred."
Lalitā: Missionary... (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: Then what is there?
Brahmānanda: "So we have already eight branches in India, and all development is being done by foreign exchange and foreign assistance numbering about one hundred."
Prabhupāda: "Mostly. Mostly by foreign exchange and foreign assistance. Mostly." It is not that there is no Indian. Mostly.
Prabhupāda: Government responsible post.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The police?
Prabhupāda: No, not police. Any responsible office. They are equally open? No.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They have facility. The philosophy of the government is that they have separate development. This is why they call it a apartheid. They have separate hospitals for the Indians. They have separate schools.
Prabhupāda: And for the black?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For the Africans? They don't have so much now. Very poor facility.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So the government gives facilities to the Indians, but separately.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Not with them.
Prof. Olivier: I got a copy of the Bhagavad-gītā at the last occassion when your representatives were here, which I thought was a very well brought out and a very well documented edition. The printing is also very good. So we are trying at this university to, slowly, to delve down into the infrastructure of education. Of course, one..., in the Western society one has got to take cognizance of so many developments in the various fields of science. And the element of spiritual science certainly has been neglected. I would concede this point immediately. That is perhaps where this university can also still play a meaningful part. Of course, here we have representatives of three of the world's greatest religions: Islam, Hinduism, and Christianity. This will be part of Professor Oosthuizen's department, to try and take the best out of these and formulate for our students, and maybe for the rest of South Africa and the world that will listen, the essences of religion that would really satisfy as we go along.
Prabhupāda: We say that religion means the law given by God. So any religion must accept God. Then there is no difference. The law may be little different according to time, circumstances. But religion means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the law given by God. Just like law means the codes given by the state. That is law. Just like you are keeping, "Keep to the right" or "left" here. In America it is right. So somewhere, "Keep to the right," or somewhere, "Keep to the left," but because it is given by the state, it is law. Similarly, whatever law is given by God, that is religion. This is our definition of religion.
Prabhupāda: That is wanted.
Prof. Olivier: How to get him to voluntarily make this experiment, because this is what you were saying. Any scientific development rests on experimentation. The challenge to experiment...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Olivier: ...is there. God does not deny anybody the privilege of experimenting.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cyavana: About the rural development village program.
Brahmānanda: Of making the men self-sufficient in cloth, foodstuffs, milk products, grains.
Cyavana: There's a map. (break)
Jñāna: ...program like the Christians.
Prabhupāda: Explain how to... Explain.
Brahmānanda: Of having a... Encouraging the people to..., first by having kīrtana and prasādam. (break)
Prabhupāda: This is the process. Some how or other, they should join, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare..." Then everything... It is not very difficult. Simply induce them to chant. That will make everything success.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is unhappy, America, India, god or beast everyone is unhappy. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya, bhaya means fearfulness. That is unhappiness. Everyone is afraid what will happen next. This is unhappiness. So either you be Indira Gandhi or a street dog, that is nature's law. Nobody is happy. That they cannot understand that there is no happiness, and he's trying to make development for happiness. Actually there is no happiness. This is struggle for existence. Manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7), with the mind and the senses he's trying for happiness, but there is no happiness. That is called illusion. That is called illusion. There is no happiness and he's trying to get happiness. Happiness is beyond the senses, material senses. Sukham atyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyam grāhyam (BG 6.21), if you want real happiness that is transcendental happiness, not this sense happiness.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So anything is a development. That is, therefore, called Darwin's theory of evolution. But where the evolution begins? That is the question.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It begins from these primordial elements.
Prabhupāda: So where that elements came?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were always there. They are eternal.
Prabhupāda: Then? Then why you say, "From this time it begun"? Everything is eternal. There is no question of beginning.
Madhudviṣa: So even if I want to perform some ajnata-sukrti, it is only by Kṛṣṇa's mercy that I will do it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
- ei rūpe brahmāṇḍe bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva
- guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti latā bīja
- (CC Madhya 19.151)
As soon as he gives to a saintly person, bhakta, he immediately acquires some asset of future development. Immediately.
Acyutānanda: If someone gives to a person for spiritual..., consciously for spiritual improvement...
Prabhupāda: There is no question of...
Acyutānanda: ...and the person misuses the money, does he benefit?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Acyutānanda: If a man says, "I am giving you this donation because it is a spiritual organization," but if the money is misused, does that man benefit?
Prabhupāda: If money is misused, then both of them become implicated. If it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, then both of them becomes under the laws of karma.
Prabhupāda: Why they become sectarian?
Madhudviṣa: They will say this is the natural development. When a system develops to this size there will be...
Prabhupāda: That you cannot change, natural development. You rascal, why you become leader? I don't require your leadership if everything is going on by nature.
Madhudviṣa: No, it requires a guide.
Prabhupāda: No, because you are rascal, you are under nature. So how you can guide me? Your position is the same. You are blind; I am blind. How you can lead me?
Madhudviṣa: They won't say that.
Prabhupāda: Nāśo 'sti. So if you do little, it will remain ever, permanently. Then you will make increase. You'll increase again.
Indian (1): As soon as you start chanting, bhakti starts, and then further development is the result of chanting?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But if we think that "I am chanting. I can do all nonsense," then it is wrong.
Dr. Patel: First of all, sir, it is the "I-ness" which must go. And you must surrender your "I" at the sacred feet of...
Prabhupāda: No, no, "I-ness" is there. If I decide, "I shall not do anything which is not for Kṛṣṇa..."
Dr. Patel: I did not mean that, sir. Your "I-ness" means your ego must be sacrificed at the feet of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, ego is...
Indian (1): How will it go unless the chanting...
Dr. Patel: Unless you surrender yourself.
Indian (1): Even the chanting will go with that ego.
Prabhupāda: Ego, ego is there, but false and right.
Devotee (2): Yes, that's correct. In animals the soul is there, but the consciousness is not developed.
Prabhupāda: Not developed. But you cannot say there is no soul. Sometimes they say foolishly that the animal, there is no soul. That is foolishness. Everywhere there is soul. It is not developed. So just like a child is as good as animal, but you cannot say in the child there is no soul. The consciousness is not developed. You can say like that. Similarly, there are 8,400,000 species of forms. They are different on account of different development of consciousness. A tree, there is consciousness, but it is very, very covered. If you cut the tree, it does not protest, because the consciousness is not developed. I have seen in children surgical operation. They do not require anesthetics. I remember. My eldest daughter, when she was child, she had some boil here. So the doctor wanted to operate.
Prabhupāda: In which way you have surpassed nature? First of all, if you are thinking like that, in which way you have surpassed the nature?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say, "For example, before we began our agricultural development, there was very poor agricultural produce all over the country due to lack of proper water. Now we have laid huge irrigation systems, and there is no more drought."
Prabhupāda: Therefore that is nature's way. Nature supplies you water. That is nature's way. That means you are making perfect according to the nature's way. But nature give you water; you produce profusely. But if you want to go above the nature, you produce without water.
Hari-śauri: In relative terms.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is necessity, what is the advancement? There is dull matter. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). Apareyam. The dull matter is inferior energy. And the anya-prakṛti, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho, the living entities, they have got necessities. Dull matter, there are no necessities. The more one is dull, his necessities are less. And those who are advanced, his necessities begin.
Hari-śauri: Well, they use.... They argue that, say like in India, where there's no great material development...
Prabhupāda: Then we shall judge the quality of necessity. That is another thing. First of all necessities, then quality.
Prabhupāda: This is visible. Your child, a baby, is on the lap, and after one year, he has got a different body. The old, the old body, on the lap, is finished. Now he is walking. It is another body. Why it is not visible?
Rāmeśvara: They say all matter goes through the stage of development and destruction.
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, this is to be answered, that this child, when he was born he was very small, lying on the lap of the mother. Now he's jumping. Now that body which was lying on the lap of the mother is no more existing. He has got another body which is jumping. But the mother knows that "It is my same child." Therefore the same soul is there; the body has changed.
Rādhāvallabha: The different varieties of suffering within the animal species are due to the different varieties of sinful activities in the human life?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they, then they automatically come. Just as your term of imprisonment, by day's gone, it is finished, again you are free. Similarly, by natural development from dogs or cockroaches or from this or that, there is a process of development. You come to the human form of body. Then again you decide whether you go down or you go back to home, back to Godhead. That is your choice. If you want to go down, go again. Otherwise, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), come here. So make your choice.
Prabhupāda: Everyone tries. That is not a particular job for you. Everyone is trying; the cats and dogs, they are also trying. The cat also very much anxious to give protection to the cubs, innocent, helpless. The dog also giving. The birds, they're bringing food for the offspring, and as soon as the mother comes, they become very much engladdened, "Oh, here is food, here is food." And they, with the mouth, they.... So this kind of sentiment is there even in the cats, dogs, animals, birds, beasts. That is natural. But we do not know how to do actual welfare activity. Somebody's engaged with his family. Somebody is engaged with his own body. Somebody.... This is only development of consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Here, in this world, everything has got six changes. Birth, then stay, and then develop, then by-products, then dwindle, then finish. Everything. So the motorcar civilization, it was born. And now the time has come it is dwindling, and it will be finished. Just like railway; railway no more interested, anybody. But when it was invented, it was very important. Now it is useless. That is the nature of everything here in this material world. It cannot be permanent benefit. That they do not know. They become very enthusiastic when some new thing is born. Child is born, I am very happy. The same child, when he's dead, I am unhappy. But one must know: what is born, it will die. So everything material has got a period of development, then it dwindles, and then finishes. So from this nature's law, we can see this motorcar attraction, utility, it will finish. It will not stay.
Prabhupāda: "And what nonsense book you have got? (laughter) We are going to stop your sales." Tell them. "And we are going to stop your sales. Instead of helping you for selling your books, we are going to stop all these nonsense books. That is our mission." Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham. That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo jagat-pavitraṁ pragṛṇīta karhicit, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasāḥ (SB 1.5.10). That verse, that however nicely it is written with..., what is called, metaphor, poetic ornaments and very good language, grammatical set-up, and so on, so on. So that, although it is very nicely written from literary point of view, but because it does not contain any glorification of Kṛṣṇa, it is just like the spot where the crows take pleasure. Crows. The crows means they go the nasty place where all nasty things are thrown. They take pleasure there. So all these other literatures, they are meant for the crows. And this literature is meant for the swan, paramahaṁsa, white swans. So it is not the bodily color. It means those who are advanced in their development of life, consciousness, it is meant for them. It is not for the crows, who are still eating all nasty things in the garbage. Crows, they do that. They take pleasure where there are garbage, all nasty things and.... And the big swans, they will like water like this, garden like this. That is.... Even in the lower animals, there is difference between the crow's society and swan's society.
Prabhupāda: ...point out material development of civilization is artificial. It is not meant for that.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is patchwork.
Prabhupāda: India has been frustrated.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you mention in the First Canto how it was predicted that certain different peoples, they would conquer India. This was predicted in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So these troubles they were foreseeing?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The troubles that India is going through today, they were foreseeing over five thousand years ago, that the Muslims would invade, the Turks?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The Englishman would invade.
Kern: So this is a development. Saint Ignatius did the same, somewhat. When he began, he sought the leadership. And he sought the intelligent, so that they might do what.... Obviously, you do it also, seeking the leadership that can then teach. We call it sometimes elitism, and this is perhaps a good word for it.
Prabhupāda: So you find out the verse, satyaḥ śamo damas titikṣā, the qualification of brāhmaṇa. Here, it is meant, the first class, second class, third class, fourth class. Yes.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."
Prabhupāda: This is first class. Again repeat that.
Prabhupāda: There is. Just like I have already said that to keep your body in order you require to keep the head, the hands, the belly and the legs in order. Otherwise, there will be disorder. The present position of the whole human society is in disorder.
Scheverman: So you are talking not only about an intellectual fitness development, but also a physical fitness of body to go along with that.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No.
Hari-śauri: Social body.
Prabhupāda: Physical fitness, they are, this.... To keep the brain in order, that is also physical thing. So.... And the soldier trained up how to fight, that is also physical. But you cannot ask the high-court judge to go and fight in the field. Both of them are physical, but you cannot ask the high-court judge, "Go and fight in the front." His business is different, his business is different.
Hari-śauri: Armament. Weapons. Weapon development. Defense. They call it defense measures.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Why defense? Man to man. That means they are dogs. The dogs defend from another dog. Is it not? As soon as they see another dog, (growls) yow, yow, yow. So then where is the defense between man to man?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're worried now that they won't be able to disarm, the article was saying, because, somehow or another, there's going to be a disaster unless there is immediate disarmament. But they don't think it's possible.
Prabhupāda: No. How they can disarm? They have been trained up like dogs to bark and fight. How there can be disarmament?
Hari-śauri: They've been talking about disarmament for who knows how long.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Hari-śauri: They've been talking about disarmament for years and years together. But they're simply increasing. There's no disarmament.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even within the different religions they are fighting amongst each other.
Prabhupāda: No, no. This religion is also bogus. How the dogs can understand religion? It is simply woax.
Prabhupāda: You believe or not believe. Just like this child, it is boy, he does not know anything. But I know, his mother knows, his father knows that he's going to be young man. If he says, "No, I am not going to be young man," that is childish. That is childish. But the father, mother, friends know that the boy is going to grow a young man, so he should be educated and he should be properly situated. That is the guardian's business. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. So that he doesn't know, that does not mean it is fact. So similarly, if rascals say, "I don't believe it," that's not a fact. He is a rascal, mad, he may say so, but that is not the fact. Karaṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgasya. Real fact is that he'll have to accept a body according to the quality of development.
Hari-śauri: This description is perfect, actually, because most of his fortunes they calculate he amassed by many illegal methods, like paying off police and fixing so many things up. With his money, he was always able to buy government officials and like this and get so many contracts to further the development of his aircraft companies and this and that.
Prabhupāda: He has manufactured airplanes?
Hari-śauri: Yes, he had something to do with airplanes. And also he had a lot of land in Las Vegas, this gambling city. So many... He was involved in many mysterious maneuvers. It's open in the newspapers, they said that he got most of his money from illegal methods.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: In his old age he was very afraid of germs. He didn't want to catch any disease. So he would wear..., he would live in perfectly sealed rooms with all artificial air and light, so no germs could exist, and he would wear these...
Prabhupāda: He did not know that he's creating germs within his body.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the meaning of apratihatā? You said that spiritual development cannot be checked.
Prabhupāda: Pratihatā means suppose you are destined to suffer. So apratihatā means in spite of your so-called suffering, the suffering will be reduced or there will be no suffering. But in spite of suffering, you can make progress in spiritual life. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja himself, his father was putting him in so many suffering conditions but it was not impeded. He was making progress. He was making progress. He didn't care for father'sputting him into so many suffering. That is called apratihatā. If you want to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your material condition of life cannot check it. That is the progress (?) (indistinct). But so far material condition, that cannot be checked. You have to suffer.
Vṛṣākapi: It's been said sometimes, Prabhupāda, that you have said that some rocks have life. Some rocks, some stones, are actually souls in them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the tree there is spirit soul. Everywhere there is spirit soul, but development of consciousness makes difference. The difference between the tree and man is that man is developed consciousness. Consciousness is developed. Tree is not developed. That is difference, but life is there both in the tree and in man.
Rūpānuga: What about the crystal? The crystal grows, but we don't say that the crystal has life in the usual sense of the term. Is the crystal also...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like diamond.
Rūpānuga: Like diamond, crystal.
Prabhupāda: Anywhere, wherever there is growth, there is life.
Prabhupāda: So similarly we may not understand that life, so long life is there, there is development. There is a stone in Benares, Śilā-bandheśvara. Everyone knows that stone is increasing. Still, it is there. So people go to see it. One who has seen that stone ten years ago, you will see it is developed now. So life, symptom of life is growth.
Rūpānuga: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes only a single symptom of life may be demonstrated. Like in crystal there is some growth only, with no other manifestation. Then the crystal may stop growing. Just like a tree...
Prabhupāda: Stops growing means dead.
Prabhupāda: This is the proof. Consciousness developed and the symptoms are there. Just like we are studying this. Our consciousness is developed. This discussion is not possible by the animals, although it has got the all life symptom. Therefore because our consciousness is developed, we can inquire. Therefore in the human form of life it is the only business to inquire about the Absolute. Now, athāto brahma jijñāsā. The animals, they can inquire where is some food, where is some stool. That much. They have no other power. But when one becomes..., gets this machine of human form of body... The Vedānta axiom is "Now it is the time for inquiring about the Absolute Truth." Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is real human life, when he inquires about the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, it is animal life. And there are so many department of education means inquiries. In the human society, there are departmental education. Physics department, chemist department, mathematics department, this department, that... Why? Because there are different inquiries. So Vedānta-sūtra says that the prime inquiry is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life. If there is no inquiry about the Absolute truth, then still he is animal. So those who are simply satisfied with the physics and chemistry, they are still animals. They are not human beings. This is the challenge. Still they have not developed the consciousness. And that inquiry, when it is for Kṛṣṇa, that is the final development. And when he understands Kṛṣṇa, his life is perfect. Then he goes back again to the spiritual world. He's quite fit to live there. Otherwise, he's unfit, he must be here in this material world. And if he understands Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). This is perfection.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to defeat this. So in the next slide, in subsequent slides, Sadāpūta will show some mathematical calculation showing that this is completely wrong.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is wrong. We can see, even a layman can see. No question of mathematician, a layman can see, here within a week we see life, why shall I wait for millions of billions of years?
Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it is described in the Vedas that life begins as a pea size. In the body, the womb of the mother, the human life is only pea size, emulsification, and then in nine months it develops into this very small series of chemicals and everything, into a full body.
Prabhupāda: No, no. In the Bhāgavata it is stated that life symptoms begins after five days.
Rūpānuga: And consciousness in seven months.
Prabhupāda: Not in consciousness, but development.
Rūpānuga: But anyway, in nine months, it is done, not millions of years.
Prabhupāda: Not nine months, seven months. Seven months the consciousness returns back and the child wants to come out. Therefore it moves, it feels inconvenient. And if he's pious, he then prays to God, "Kindly save me from this condition. Now taking birth, I shall take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and make myself free from this bondage."
Prabhupāda: The same thing. Fermentation is going on, and the living entity takes a form. Then flies. And they say, from the water it is coming, flies, mosquito. The same process for development. That's all. Everything is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, what happens to the soul when you have an abortion, though? Where does it go?
Prabhupāda: Goes to another body. Dehāntara. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). If you do not allow him to this body, he goes to another body. Just like if you drive me from this apartment, I must go somewhere. I must find out another apartment. It is not that I am finished. You force me to go out of this apartment. So I go to a friend's house or anywhere, I must go.
Prabhupāda: Immediately, work stopped.
Hari-śauri: Yes, he made that point, in that he said that in the development of a motor, he said the whole thing has to be there, the whole idea has to be there to start with, to make the motor and to make it work, then it works.
Prabhupāda: It is good.
Hari-śauri: It's very convincing, this presentation.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they are mahātmās, no doubt, it's just that most chemists, most scientists are very, very skeptical. Going from ovals,(?) and all of a sudden they see the form of Viṣṇu.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You can carefully read the Second Canto, Bhāgavatam, Third Canto. You'll get all the knowledge, how things develop. It is a question of development. So maybe there was something missing, but after development it is manifested there. That is possible.
Rūpānuga: In the day of, one day of Brahmā, there are fourteen Manus. And in the course of creation, re-creation of the same species from the previous day—they are re-creating the same species—it takes, there's some time, maybe one Manu, there's some species that are finished, but the next Manu...
Prabhupāda: That doesn't mean time. What is this Manu?
Rūpānuga: No, no, I'm saying this is what really happened, right? So we were thinking that we could show one day, this is one day, one day of Brahmā...
Prabhupāda: No, you do not think what is actually there, you can say. You do not be a speculator.
Prabhupāda: Then Second Canto, the development of Sṛṣṭi-tattva, there you'll get.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think there is also reference in the Bhagavad-gītā, this hiraṇmaya, because sometimes it's also called Brahman.
Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti. What?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Brahman.
Prabhupāda: Brahman, yes. He's called Hiraṇya-garbha, Brahmā.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's also said in this state, pradhāna state, the cause and effect are not clearly manifested.
Prabhupāda: Caitanya caritāmṛta, did you refer Nityānanda-tattva?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I'm still...
Prabhupāda: Read it, you'll get clue there. Maybe in the Third Chapter. Bring up here. We shall... First part, take it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, spirit is, but there is a spiritual world also, where you don't require this material body, you remain in your spiritual body.
Bill Sauer: But if there is no bodies left, they are all burned up, there's no spiritual development.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, that is not the fact.
Bill Sauer: So you need to take the bodies somewhere so that... (laughs)
Prabhupāda: No, so long you are in the material world you need to take a material body, but if you are in your original spiritual body, then you remain in the spiritual world.
Bill Sauer: Well, I believe there is a matrix of creation, a spiritual... Technical people call it an electromagnetic world, where I'm sure a lot goes on that we are unaware of, but I believe the... It's like one product of the fourth kingdom is the automobile. And that has it's spiritual world. Automobiles, if you destroyed all the automobiles, there are still blueprints around, there are still things that can manufacture other automobiles. But the trial, the improvement, the development the automobile has to take place as an automobile... Likewise, I think the spiritual improvement, the improvement of...
Prabhupāda: Automobile, automatically the automobile does not develop. When a man, a person, develops the design, that is a question of development. But the automobile as it is, it does not develop. It is matter. When matter is handled by a spirit soul, then there is change. Otherwise there is no change.
Lady Guest: Yes, it helps. People are interested. People are interested in development of a man like you because they relate. And that way they decide to read what you write.
Prabhupāda: First thing is that if you are interested in our book, so, you read our books. You'll understand.
Interviewer: Understand you?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Interviewer: Is that what you're saying?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Interviewer: Is that what he's saying?
Prabhupāda: A man is known when he speaks. When he speaks. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate: "A fool is so long beautiful as long as he does not speak." When he speaks, then you can understand what he is. So my speaking are there in the books, and if you are intelligent, you can understand. You haven't got to ask. Speaking... Just like in a court. A big lawyer is known when he speaks. Otherwise everyone is a good lawyer. But when he speaks in the court, then he is known, whether he is good lawyer or not. So you have to hear. You have to read. Then you'll understand. Real understanding is there.
Rāmeśvara: ...of development the life enters.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: Therefore they say they can abort the baby. They say that...
Prabhupāda: That they do not know, when the soul enters. The soul enters in the first night when pregnancy begins. Otherwise how it will grow? Life begins from that point. It grows one day, two day, three day, five day, one month, three months, like that. But the growing, growth, begins from that very point. If the life has got shelter between the two secretions of father and mother, then it grows.
Prabhupāda: Civilization means to push the man forward for perfection. That is civilization.
Hari-śauri: Development.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Society and economic condition, everything should be so arranged that this human child should be gradually pushed for perfection of life, go back home, back to Godhead. This is civilization. And modern civilization is "Don't care for what is going to happen. So long you live, eat, drink, be merry, enjoy," that's all. Sense gratification. This is called nāstika-vāda. Very dangerous. And that is going on all over the world. How a gentleman can live in that society?
Hari-śauri: They can't. Gradually people...
Prabhupāda: Therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "This is not a place for a gentleman." Formerly, therefore, they used to go away from the society, go in the forest, to give up this bad association. Live alone.
Pradyumna: So we analyze the material body is temporary, it's no good anyways, then if, even if someone says, "Well, it may be temporary, but in this life we can get something out of it," then we analyze that other people are taking that. The wife is taking that, the children are taking that.
Prabhupāda: No, we should first of all fix up what is our business. People have taken this, that to maintain the body, to maintain the family, to earn money and protect it, these have become their business. They do not know anything else. The whole world is going on on this platform. Nationwise, communitywise, and everything. Other countries have developed, now the Shah is trying to develop equally. But what is the aim of development? The same—motorcar and accident. That they do not know. "No. They have got motorcar. I must have motorcar." But what is the aim? Same aim. Meet accident and die. They do not know what is the aim of life. Na te viduḥ. They do not know it. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking that by adjusting this material way of life they'll be happy, that's all. This is ignorance. The whole civilization is wrong because they do not know what is the aim of life. That is the fault. If they know the aim of life, then it is all right. You live comfortably. There is no... Who asks you that you live discomfortably? You live comfortably. But you must know the aim of life. That they do not know. Ask anybody what is the aim, why you are working so hard, why you are maintaining family, why you are maintaining body, what is the aim of your life? That they do not know. (break) ...control. These things are growing on account of water. If there is no water how they will grow? So it is not in the hands of the scientists. It is in the hands of God.
Prabhupāda: Latest development they are finding water in Mars?
Parivrājakācārya: It is very difficult for them because they are using their eyes and other instruments. They have found places where there were rivers, and they are finding ice, other things. So, I don't know the latest about it. It is obvious to them there is life, different kinds of life.
Hari-śauri: The way of testing for life...
Prabhupāda: Why you are spoiling your nails? It may come to a boil and then you'll understand. It is very dangerous habit. If there is little (indistinct) then it will become a boil.
Hari-śauri: The way they test for life is they take some soil and mix certain things with it, and then they wait and see if there is some life development from that.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense.
Hari-śauri: Yes. They mix ammonia and...
Prabhupāda: Chemical theory. Why do they not in the end mix something and see if life is coming? They are all rascals, speaking one after another, rascals.
Hari-śauri: That's their whole thing, that if...
Prabhupāda: If by mixing something they can bring life, why not in the egg?
Hari-śauri: Yes, they can't even do it here.
Prabhupāda: Simply for... But you rascals you cannot understand how they are speaking rascaldom.
Prabhupāda: Just like, practice is also not very difficult. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So if you daily come to the temple, see the Deity, he'll have some impression and he can think of Kṛṣṇa, how He is playing flute, how He is nicely dressed, how Rādhārāṇī is standing (indistinct). Then man-manā, he can think of Kṛṣṇa very easily. So man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, and as soon as you think of Kṛṣṇa, you become a devotee. Because a businessman will not spare so much time thinking (of) Kṛṣṇa, how He is playing flute. He has no business. Without being bhakta, nobody will be interested to meditate on Kṛṣṇa, how He's standing, how He's playing flute. This is bhakta's business. So anyone who is planning some trying(?) to think of Kṛṣṇa, that means automatically he becomes bhakta, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. Mad-yājī, then naturally if he becomes bhakta, naturally then why not offer to Kṛṣṇa something? Eh? Naturally. Give Him some fruits, some flower, some grains. Then Kṛṣṇa is accepting them, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So to think of Kṛṣṇa, to become a devotee and to offer Him something, patraṁ puṣpaṁ, and offer Him obeisances, these things are development of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. And the result is, find out this verse, man-manā. Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68), by simply executing these four principles, Kṛṣṇa assures that you will come, asaṁśayaḥ, without any doubt.
Prabhupāda: Available is everything. If you pay, everything is available. Therefore they say, "If you pay, I can supply you tiger's blood." If you pay, everything is available. People have lost completely interest in spiritual life. They have lost completely.
Kartikeya Mahadevia: But in the new generation we think children are more interested in religion or the bhakti than the parents. That is a new development. People who are 25 or 15, they are not. But the children who are below 10. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...parents will encourage. They have no interest even.
Kartikeya Mahadevia: At the school level, something can be done.
Prabhupāda: The authorities will not allow. School authorities, if you say that you want whole Gītā, (?) they will not. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). This is Kali-yuga. All bad. And even one is interested, he is interested in something bogus. Sumanda-matayaḥ. They have manufactured a style of religious principle. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyāḥ. And all unfortunate.
Jayapatākā: The MLA. The local Member of Legislative Assembly. He was previously a little against us. But because our whole aṁśa (?) is for us, if he doesn't cooperate he won't get their vote, they want the development in their area. Also the...He is changing a little. Everyone is saying that our society is actually simply doing sincere work.
Prabhupāda: As they doing (?).
Jayapatākā: This food distribution has been very important.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, he'll collect. That's all.
Jayapatākā: Your program everyone is appreciating. When the newspapermen came out, at that time the black development officer he came there, and when the newspapermen were there he sat down with all the poor people and he took also and said, "This is very good. This is our national service." And they photographed.
Prabhupāda: "National Service"?
Jayapatākā: Yes, he mentioned.
Prabhupāda: They they will manage, and if they allow two years, that's all right. One devotee comes, another goes, another... That will be done.
Jayapatākā: Because some that are acclimatized, it is difficult for training up. A few people are better to stay there that are trained up on that basis. I think with Mr. Putnaik and others that... Because he also wants that Orissan development... They can understand that it is important to have one or two people that are known people stay there. If every two years a change is, that is disadvantage.
Prabhupāda: No, our Gaura-Govinda I think he is doing there nice.
Prabhupāda: Never mind. The books must reach there. That is my...
Prabhā Viṣṇu: One way or the other the books will get there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. Doesn't matter. We are not after profit.
Prabhā Viṣṇu: Besides, any profit it goes toward the development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the total amount?
Prabhā Viṣṇu: Of standing orders? So many. Over two hundred.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, wherever you go, they take it.
Prabhupāda: It is the stage. It is stage. Just like the tree. If you cut, it does not feel so much pains and pleasure as a human being. It is the development of consciousness. So in human form of body the consciousness is developed. Therefore he can understand what is his position. And therefore for human being there are śāstras—the Vedas, the Purāṇas—to understand his position. The tree cannot take advantage of the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. A cat cannot take advantage.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That means there is no money.
Rāmeśvara: But one recent development which will change that is that they have appealed to the government that they are an educational group. Therefore they should be tax exempt like any other educational organization, and the government has agreed. Now they have gotten their tax exemption, so now these parents can donate lots of... Different people will start donating lots of money to them as tax write-offs. So I think that we will see that their activities will be expanded this year, because now they are tax exempt, they'll get a lot of money.
Hari-śauri: That news article said that someone had given them $105,000. Some parents of a cult...
Prabhupāda: No, there are rich parents. They can do that. And every parent is unhappy. (chuckles)
Rāmeśvara: The fighting will increase this year. It's getting very acute, as you said in that letter.
Prabhupāda: So they are feeling the strength of Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (3): This Khorana has put out one (gene?), and if it keeps growing, it will really havoc with artificial development.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Girirāja: He says Dr. Khorana, he has made a gene.
Prabhupāda: Gene?
Guest (2): Living cell.
Prabhupāda: What it is?
Girirāja: Yes, they take it that the hereditary qualities that a person inherits is determined by these genes. So now they're thinking that if they can control the genes, they can create their own type of human being according to their own...
Prabhupāda: They can't. That, this nonsense speaking, is going on throughout the history, but they'll never be able. That is the fact. "We are trying. We shall do in future"—these things are going on. But this is all stories. We don't believe in these nonsense things. They'll never be happy. That is not possible.
Rāmeśvara: ...effect. By just your coming to America, the whole place is transformed. Sometimes we think that when you look at these dates that Lord Caitanya came to the world, it coincides with a period in the Western world called the Renaissance. During this period of the Renaissance there was the highest development of art and literature and so many other cultural things. So we sometimes wonder there must be some...
Prabhupāda: Does it mean that before that, the Europeans were uncivilized?
Rāmeśvara: They were, actually considered themselves to be in the Dark Ages. They call it the Dark Ages. And then, all of a sudden, there was what they call the Renaissance, where man's intelligence became greater, expanded. He became interested in finer things.
Prabhupāda: Not man, but the Westerners.
Prabhupāda: Now, this, this is fact, that when this body is no more working, the subtle body carries the soul to another gross body. That they cannot see, but it acts. This science they do not know. Seeing is always not competent, material eye. Just like the example is given that flavor is carried by the air. It is being carried, but I cannot see. But it is being carried. That is transmigration of the soul. The soul is carried by the subtle body to another particular body, and according to his karma under superior examination, the soul, a very small particle, one ten-thousandth part of the hair, he is put into the semina of the particular father, and he injects. So the soul takes place in the womb of the mother. She supplies the material to develop the next body. This is the process, transmigration. Then, when the body is complete to come out, then another body works. Another chapter begins: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So this is development.
Prabhupāda: Read Bhagavad-gītā.
Rāmeśvara: Unfortunately he has not come across the Vedas. I have already written a letter to some devotees in Los Angeles to meet this man and give him your Third Canto, Volume Four, which describes the movements of the living entity, development in the womb... I think he'll be shocked to read these things.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gargamuni: He's also read this book called the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
Prabhupāda: No, why not this also, Bhāgavata also, Bhagavad-gītā?
Rāmeśvara: Apparently he's not familiar with the Vedic writings. So...
Prabhupāda: So inform him.
Rāmeśvara: Yes. Anyway, the most significant thing is that it's been published in this journal which is usually for middle class, nothing controversial. And now they have published life after death. It shows that people are beginning to believe.
Prabhupāda: As they are reading our literatures.
Prabhupāda: We have no objection to this, provided there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unfortunately these things cover more time for their maintenance, and they forget Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That should be stopped. The main business is development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Rāmeśvara: And you also mentioned not so much these ugra-karmic jobs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Rāmeśvara: Industry. Now hundreds of thousands of people have their jobs in this way. So...
Prabhupāda: Let them go to the farm. We are therefore organizing farm. As soon as they are jobless, "Come on. We shall feed you. We shall give you food." There is no scarcity of food.
Prabhupāda: Everything will be stopped, all bogus social, political or religious systems. They will be all stopped.
Rāmeśvara: Then this will be a natural development of the growth of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Two things: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). As the duṣkṛtā—na māṁ duṣkṛtā mūḍhāḥ—will be reduced, the sādhu will increase. Or the sādhu will increase, the duṣkṛta will decrease.
Rāmeśvara: This conflict will be global. It will affect the whole world.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: Very good report. It is worth seeing, worth considering our... If we develop our farms in India on this basis, it will be very nice. We have got greater land. You have got 450 acres; we have got 600. No? Now it requires development.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahāṁśa was calling for this because he said that by showing this... He wants to get a big grant of money.
Prabhupāda: They simply want money. That's all. Money will only be supplied. Let them show some work.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Paramānanda may be able to come to help there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to give them direction. It will be very nice. If Paramānanda comes, we can invest money without any hesitation. He has got experience.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'll certainly... When Ādi-keśava comes here, I'll be talking to him about this point. He may be able to come in the winter time.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, we can develop farm here also. Farm development is Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. Kṛṣṇa is tending cows, and Balarāma is plowing. Therefore the plow and flute, flute for tending cows and plow for agriculture-Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. In Africa also you have got good opportunity for these farm projects.
Prabhupāda: Every book is... Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Nectar of Devotion. Whichever he will read, he will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. (break) And then Kṛṣṇa, then Bhāgavata, then Caitanya-caritāmṛta, simply development.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This book is now very nice because there are many fine illustrations inside, more than there used to be. They've added. The Teachings of Lord Caitanya, I was thinking in particular. I have a copy of that, and there are many color illustrations inside now. Wonderful book, the summary of all of Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's introduction gives a whole... It's like all of the pastimes of Lord Caitanya condensed into a few pages.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is there in the Teaching of Lord Caitanya.
Hari-śauri: Actually, it's a complete development of consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Different platform, different field.
Ādi-keśava: We can say that, to the common people, "These persons who are saying that you're being brainwashed, 'You are losing your identity,' they are cheating you, because actually you don't know what your identity is. You have no identity, and they're telling you that you already know."
Prabhupāda: And therefore I say "You have no brain. Where is the question of brainwash?"
Hari-śauri: Yes. They say, "Think for yourself," but they don't know what themselves are. They don't know "Who am I," so how can they think for themselves?
Prabhupāda: That you have to prove, that "You have no brain, no intelligence. Therefore you are finding out completely different. On which platform we are speaking, you do not know. So that platform, first of all you have to distinguish—it is matter or spirit? Then spiritual. You have no idea what is spirit, and where is spiritual platform. Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this point, that the spirit is within, not this body. That is your identity."
Prabhupāda: And Boston also? No.
Satsvarūpa: No. Today also with new preaching centers, Svarūpa Dāmodara was assigned the development of Manipur.
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava state. Do you like this idea?
Rāmeśvara: Svarūpa, do you like the idea?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: And we discussed the sannyāsa recommendations. No one who was recommended last year for sannyāsa was approved this year. During the year they did not prove well. No one is here for initiation. And for next year no recommendations were made. Then... One man... And I was accepted as editor in chief of Back to Godhead. The details of the editorial policies that I should follow, I can take in consultation from my other GBC Godbrothers. And further, in an attempt to set a uniform standard so that Back to Godhead is like scripture, I should function as editor for all Back to Godheads published in the various languages. In this I should work in cooperation with the co-editors and BBT trustees of the various foreign language BTGs. There may be various co-editors of those magazines, but I will be responsible to keep a uniform standard.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Prabhupāda: If more men come, then I shall describe all this anthill civilization. "Health." Nonsense, what "health"? He'll be kicked out immediately.
Guest (2) (Indian man): Even healthy development.
Prabhupāda: No, who is healthy if he's going to die? "I am so healthy that I am going to die tomorrow." This is their health.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Illusion. They don't know. Every one of those questions was about the body.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). That is healthy, when you do not die even the body is destroyed. That is healthy life. What is this healthy life? The body is finished and everything, everything is... Actually everything is finished. And to keep people in that ignorance—"The body is finished; everything is finished." That's not the fact. Kṛṣṇa very clearly said, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They do not question even how it is possible. That is the most important question.
Dr. Kumar: (Hindi) Philosophical background of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, so that people may know that this is not a new religion. It's well founded. I've traced the history, the development of Vaiṣṇavism, earliest Vedic period to the present. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) "The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is genuine, bona fide." (Hindi) So you are ready? (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (Hindi conversation) (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The only explanation can be that Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam: "I give him intelligence."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the Kṛṣṇa book there's the part where Lord Brahmā steals away all the calves and children, so then Kṛṣṇa gives Himself instead. So...
Prabhupāda: Not gives. He exands Him...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Expands Himself. So Balarāma is wondering, "How is it possible that everyone is so attracted?" Then the explanation is, "He's Kṛṣṇa." So these books are there. People are automatically attracted. I don't think they're so attracted to any other books.
Prabhupāda: No, what other books? Rubbish. I say, rubbish. There is no book. Mental speculation is not book. Garbage.
Prabhupāda: Anything, presentation, for the time being there is no need. Better invest the money there to develop.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wants you to invest whatever... 'Cause he's not eating so much, he says. So better to use the money and invest it in Mombassa for development there. That temple is very good, I think.
Prabhupāda: Kaviraji's medicine was helping stop the passing of...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kaviraji's medicine is what, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Helping through medicine passing of urine. Of course, I'll drink, but what is the use of then the allopathic?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, as I explained, the purpose of the allopathic was that during the time when your urine became very dark, we wanted to make it, you know, take away the poisons that were causing the urine to become dark. Now your urine is not dark anymore. That was one main thing. And the other thing was that we were hoping somehow to get you back to more strength, give you more strength by taking away whatever disease was there.
Prabhupāda: Nitāi-Gaura. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda, śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta.
Prabhupāda: In Bombay?
Hari-śauri: You saw him in Bombay last year. He had just done some drawings for the development of Bhuvaneśvara, and you asked him if he would like... Oh, Haridaspur. At that time he was working on some plans for Haridaspur, and you asked him if he would like to stay there. He's... Bhāgavata put that he had died of some brain virus.
Prabhupāda: In Bhuvaneśvara?
Hari-śauri: Yes. That is part of Jagannātha Purī dhāma?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Which is suitable.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think the general is already covered by this Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust committee. That's for all of India. And Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi is especially for encouraging the development of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism in that area-Śrīdhara Mahārāja's nātha-mandira, this Yoga-pīṭha Bhaktivedanta Hall. Different buildings. Supposing one of your Godbrothers may have written some manuscript, he has no money. We can print some books for him so he can sell them, like that, works within the Māyāpur area.
Prabhupāda: That we shall fix up, what to spend.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity trustees would fix that up?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: All right.
| Page Title: | Development (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 25 of Jun, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=121, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 121 |