Demons (Conversations 1968-1974)

Prabhupāda: So according to our proposition... Not only now, it is forever. Two classes of men are there: sura and asura. Surāsura. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved devaḥ. Deva and sura, the same thing. Asuras tad viparyayaḥ. And the asura, or the demons, godless. So if the Americans remain godless in the name of so-called trust in God, they will not be able to check this communistic movement. They will not be able. Now, if they are serious to check this communistic movement, save the American country as well as the whole world, then they must be very serious to understand what is God and what is trust in God. Otherwise this communistic movement will finish the civilized human society. So you are thoughtful. They must be very serious about it. And this is the only movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which can make all people actually trust in God and explain what is meant by God. Demons, they... If the communists are demons and the capitalists are also demons, fighting between demons, there will be war and loss of life, but nobody will come out victorious. That is going on. There is occasional world war, but the situation of the world remains the same. No party has become able to change the situation of the world. What do you think, Karandhara?

Karandhara: No, no significant change.

Prabhupāda: Simply they fight and loss of life and money, energy. War must be for the good. If there is some war, it must be for some good. But where is that goodness? The world remains the same; rather, it becomes more worst. Then why fight? But they will fight. Because both of them demons, they will fight. But not for any good result. War means... War is not bad. Just like disease. If somebody is diseased, then he becomes healthy. The whole polluted situation of the body becomes repaired. Just like when you get a boil or dysentery, all the poisons of the body, they become purged out. Then your health becomes nice. That is the law, nature's law. Similarly, war or famine or pestilence, they are meant for purging out all undesirable men. But the demonic principle is so strong that it is not becoming so. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this approach. The Americans have placed in their constitution, "In God we Trust." It should be done very scientifically and philosophically, what is God and what is that trust, not a vague idea. Vague ideas will not help. They will not be able to conquer over the atheistic world. Actually, if there is organized party who believe in God factually, then this demon class of men will always be vanquished. Yes. Just like there was war between the surāsura, demigods and the asuras. God, Viṣṇu, took side of the demigods and came out victorious. But if both of them are demons, why Viṣṇu will take side of anyone of them? "You fight and go to hell." That is going on.

Umāpati: ...I think that we were discussing the political possibilities of putting devotees into office, and we came up with the astounding discovery that we almost represent everything that is against western values. We represent austerity. We represent God consciousness. We represent restriction of sexual freedom, intoxication. All the four regulative principles are almost totally in opposite to western desires.

Prabhupāda: That means western people are all demons.

Karandhara: Well, you can't, but they do.

Prabhupāda: They do everything, but they are demons. They do mental concoction.

Morning Walk -- December 13, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to start this movement seriously, not to take that. You cannot change it. Then you become demons. Therefore I am warning you that before they, these rascals change, you take the advantage of it, that "You cannot change. Then you become demons, you (are) animals. If you withdraw your trust from God, then you are animals. So we are not going to be governed by the animals." That should be the people's voice. Educate people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and they will yell, "No, we are not going to be governed by the animals. We want real men." That should be your demand. Therefore I am warning you, that before they do that, you become strong, so that they cannot do it. Rather, they may understand, "Yes, what we are speaking is all right." That is preaching.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, now America has to do the same thing to stop demonism. Then your nation will be leader. You understand; you have trust in God. Now it is your business to trust in real God and work for Him. You cannot... I have explained already. You cannot stop communism. You have to stop demonism. That is your real business. Communism is another type of demonism. So if you remain a demon, so what is the use of stopping another demonism? The same example: stool, the upside is dried up. You cannot say, "Because it is upside of stool, it is better side." Stool is stool. Guer ei pita en opita. (?) (dog barking loudly) Come on. That's all right. He cannot make the condition of the world better by... Just like Professor Kotofsky. He was saying that there must be revolution. I was talking of authority. So the authority you must have to accept. So he said that authority is accepted upon revolution.

Morning Walk -- December 13, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prajāpati: As soon as we define what demoniac civilization is, then no one will support us because they'll see that they themselves are demons.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are demons they cannot understand. Just like one Christian priest went to some quarters, mine, gold mine. So he was describing that "If you do not worship Lord Jesus Christ, you will go to hell." So they asked, "What is hell?" So when he began to describe—"It is always wet. It is dark. There is no sufficient air, so on, so on"—they could not understand what is hell because they are already in the hell, in the mine. They could not make any distinction that darkness is a very horrible thing. Similarly, these demons they cannot understand what is demonism. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15). What is that āsura-bhāva? Not to accept God. This is āsura-bhāva. This is demonism. This is the basic principle of... Everyone is trying to deny God. Therefore they are demons. Who was telling that the medical man is considered to be first-class authority?

Prajāpati: If we see a group of demons fighting, killing each other, should devotees go and try to stop them from killing each other?

Prabhupāda: First of all you must know whether they are demons. But demons fight. Gentlemen do not fight.

Prabhupāda: Devotees must pray that "This great demon Hiraṇyakaśipu may be killed by You, my Lord." Therefore He comes. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja passively... (break) ...father was being killed. He could have stopped it, but he did not. He did not. If Prahlāda Mahārāja would have requested, immediately it would have been stopped, but he did not. He said, rather, in his prayer, that "Nobody is sorry when a serpent or a scorpion is killed." He said like that. So he said, "My father was just like a serpent and scorpion. Now he is killed. So now You become pacified. No more need of becoming angry." Modeta sādhur api. Actually, I have seen. There was a snake in our Māyāpur temple. So Guru Mahārāja was standing on the..., while some devotees were waiting. "Yes, kill it." So at that time I could not understand that "Such a saintly person why he is ordering to kill a snake?" Then when I found in Bhāgavata, modeta sādhur api vṛścika-sarpa-hatyā: (SB 7.9.14) "A saintly person also becomes engladdened when a snake is killed." Because it is very harmful. He said that "He will do so many harmful activities. Better kill him." Because his business is to create harm. That's all.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact. But still, they are dangerous. That is said by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. The serpent is so dangerous. That, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. The serpent is so dangerous that even one imagines there is a serpent, he is, becomes afraid. You see? When Mahārāja Pratāparudra wanted to see Him and Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya and others requested, that "He is a devotee." "But I know that he is a devotee, but because he is king, therefore I cannot see him." He gave this encou..., "The serpent even by imagination is also fearful." He said like that. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, manina bhujitaḥ sarpa kim asau na bhayaṁkaraḥ. (?) A serpent... You know, sometimes they have got jewel. "So a serpent with jewel, does it mean that he is not fearful?" Even with jewel he is fearful. Therefore, the demon, even with high educational qualification, he is rascal. He is rascal, fearful.

Morning Walk -- December 17, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, I said that, that sometimes, serpents are tame, friendly, everything, with jewel. But still they are fearful. Still, they are fearful. They cannot be trusted. A demon may be your friend, but you cannot trust him. Manina bhujitaḥ sarpa kim asau na bhayaṁkaraḥ. (?) Just like (laughing) your sky in the western world. However clear it may be, you cannot trust. At any moment there will be cloud. Is that all right?

Devotee: Especially in London.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That dog also doing, jumping, always. "Yes, we get... Bow! Bow! Bow! Ra, ra, ra, ra!" That kind of... Active business. What is called? Active foolishness. They remain foolish, but still, they are active. That means they are simply creating dangerous position. That's all. Jagataḥ ahitāḥ. It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā. These demons, their progress means only for the mischief of the world. That's all. That is demonic progress. Kṣayāya jagato... For the destruction of the world and for mischievous condition of the world, their progress. Is it not? Kṣayāya jagataḥ ahitāḥ. Kṣayāya means "for destruction and for mischievous condition." Therefore, despite all advancement of so-called scientific knowledge, the world becoming more and more in dangerous and destructive condition.

Morning Walk -- December 17, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes, so long he will pay. That's all. "Hospital." In your country especially. "Hospital" means "to receive." But there also you pay, then it is hospital. Otherwise "Get out." It is no longer hospital.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I find doctors are most rascals here. They are greatest demons.

Prabhupāda: Why not the scientists?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think scientists are better than doctors.

Prabhupāda: Better rascals. (laughter) Scientists are better rascals.

Morning Walk -- December 19, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Prajāpati: The scientists are much more formidable demons.

Prabhupāda: Not formidable. They can easily conquered.

Morning Walk -- December 20, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prajāpati: Yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in class, you mentioned how the churches, people could pay them for supposedly becoming very religious men. In Las Vegas, the capital of the gambling and the illicit sex and the intoxication, where all these things are very prominent, the churches there are very prominent also. These big demons, they pay large money to the churches and therefore they feel like they are very religious men even though they are committing all these sinful activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And by taking their sinful money, because they do not engage to Kṛṣṇa, they also become sinful. Affection. Infection. (break) They have mentioned something like sinful?

Prajāpati: Yes, sinful.

Morning Walk -- December 30, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Otherwise you cannot control. When there is educated good men, then you can argue. But when people are ruffians, there is no question of good... Argumentum vaculum, I told you the other day... (break) ...in the beginning of creation, the fight between the demons and the demigods, devāsura-yuddha. That is always there. In the European history, without revolution, no order changes. Even the Russian Revolution was there. French revolution was there. In England, Cromwell? Cromwell? Cromwell Revolution?

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Yes.

Morning Walk -- December 30, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So without revolution, (indistinct), you cannot change old order. "Old orders changes giving place to new." That old order changes... Everywhere it is by violence. The Mahābhārata also, the Battle of Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa was there. He tried to settle up. But it was not settled without violence. Paritrāṇāya... What is that? Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). Kṛṣṇa also comes, vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, to, for killing the demons. Kṛṣṇa also comes.

Morning Walk -- December 30, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Then what is the use? Because under democratic government, your order is not final. So if the people are demons, then what you will do? You cannot do anything. Therefore the people's mentality, consciousness, should be changed by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. When they become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will select Kṛṣṇa conscious president. Then everything finished. Formerly people used to accept the king as the final authority, but at this present moment, that is not accepted. People must accept. Now it is people's government. So unless people are God conscious, you cannot find good government. In comparison to other governments, your government is far better. People here (are) not starving.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 3, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily demoniac. Two classes of men are always there: intelligent and demon.

Room Conversation -- February 13, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: These are very old questions. These are not very intelligent questions. God is not creating. God is giving you chance. The conditioned souls who are not with Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore God is giving them chance. "All right enjoy (indistinct)," and giving instruction also that you enjoy in this way, so that you may come back again. Just like a father. Children wants to play in the (indistinct). "All right, you play." Then, as soon as he asks, "Please come back. (indistinct), they come back. Similarly this material world, we wanted to enjoy, so Kṛṣṇa has given us freedom, "All right enjoy". And now Kṛṣṇa gives instruction that "now you give up all this (indistinct) come back, then you (indistinct)." He created for you. Same example I always give. Just like the government, when there is formation of the city, jail construction is also there. You cannot say that, "Why government is creating, it is unnecessary, it's premature, construction of jail work(?). But the government knows that there are some criminals who has to be put into the jail. Therefore the jail created. So because there are criminals, therefore government creates. Similarly, there are many conditioned souls who, instead of serving Kṛṣṇa, they want to enjoy. "All right, for you, you enjoy to your fullest extent." And when he is tired of enjoying, enjoying, enjoying. Then Kṛṣṇa says that, "If you give up all this nonsense, just surrender to Me, you will be accepted." But the demons will never surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- March 7, 1974, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Then everything is there. You haven't got to manufacture anything. And the Bhagavad-gītā is the gist idea of all Vedic culture. And our propaganda is to establish that gist idea of Bhagavad-gītā. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So therefore I am asking. "What is the politics of Kṛṣṇa?" Kṛṣṇa's politics was to have a king of the world which..., Kṛṣṇa conscious, a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is the Kṛṣṇa's politics. He wanted to replace. So the first politic is to replace these so-called leaders, demons. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is that land? This land?

Jayapatākā: We already walked over it.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: These rascals, asuras, they do not know what is the goal of life. But in which way we should direct? These rascals, they do not know. Still, they become public leaders, asuras. Na viduḥ. How to dissuade people to stop this? Just like we are doing: no illicit sex. Nivṛtti. Nivṛtti. No illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating. This is nivṛtti. And pravṛtti, take to Kṛṣṇa. This is pravṛtti, nivṛtti. But the rascal demons, leaders, they do not know these things. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na viduḥ asura-jana (BG 16.7). They do not know it. Still, they become leaders. They do not know in which way people should be directed, and still they claim to be public leaders.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: A Vaiṣṇava does not like to kill, but Kṛṣṇa Himself killed so many demons.

Morning Walk -- April 5, 1974, Bombay:

Girirāja: "O Hṛṣīkeśa, the world becomes joyful upon hearing Your name, and thus everyone becomes attached to You. Although the perfected beings offer You their respectful homage, the demons are afraid, and they flee here and there. All this is rightly done." (break)

Prabhupāda: Siddha, there is a Siddha-loka. So they can fly from one planet to another without any machine, siddha-saṅgāḥ. Means the aṣṭa-siddhi yogas, they have got naturally.

Morning Walk -- April 6, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...Yes. 28th or 27th. 27th Dvāpara-yuga. (break) Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). This is kṣatriya's business: to establish religious principles and to kill the demons. This is kṣatriya's business. And Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He appeared as a brāhmaṇa. So He did not kill anybody. Although He was just about to kill Jagāi and Mādhāi, but Nityānanda Prabhu restrained that "In this incarnation You have promised not to kill." (break) You know I wrote him that letter.

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1974, Bombay:

Girirāja: (break) "...those who are demoniac or atheistic by nature can hardly assimilate any good instruction, however authorized it may be. That is the difference between a demigod and a demon." (break)

Prabhupāda: Therefore, at the present moment, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānām tayāpahṛta-cetasām (BG 2.44). Demons, they are too much attached to material enjoyment, bhoga and aiśvarya. So they cannot take to it. Therefore our general principle is to perform saṅkīrtana, not to talk philosophy. When one is interested, then he can talk philosophy. Otherwise this talk should be amongst inner circles, with the students and the teacher, those who are submissive. Otherwise it should be avoided. It will create misunderstanding.

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Demons are known as sura-dviṣām, sura-dviṣām, those who are envious of the demigods, sura-dvisa. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). This word is used in the Bhāgavata: "just to cheat the demons," sammohāya sura-dviṣām. (break) That is the instruction of Nārada. You see? Then?

Girirāja: "Within the prison, shackled in iron chains, Vasudeva and Devakī gave birth to a male child year after year. Kaṁsa, thinking each of the babies to be the incarnation of Viṣṇu, killed them one after another."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He killed his brother. He was merciful upon the father only, kept him in the prison. Otherwise he killed the whole family—brother, brother's son and everyone. (break) ...present kings, such incidences are very many in the history, killing everyone. There is another story that Pana, Pana?

Morning Walk -- April 8, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (chants japa) (break). They'll talk of Kṛṣṇa, so many things but they're not devotees. Just like Kaṁsa. They may talk of Kṛṣṇa or think of Kṛṣṇa, but they don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. Therefore they are demons. This is the test. They'll read Bhagavad-gītā, but they'll not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. And that is the demonic. māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Because they are demons, therefore their so-called knowledge is useless. Apahṛta-jñāna. And apparently, they seem to be very learned scholar, but there is no knowledge. There is no knowledge. This is the demonic... Just like Rāvaṇa. He was very much advanced student in Vedic literature. But he was a demon. So simply by studying Vedas one does not become out of the jurisdiction of demons. Just like Jarasandha. He was also worshiping Viṣṇu. But he was a demon. He was a demon. His purpose was different. The yajñic brāhmaṇas, they also could not understand Kṛṣṇa. So this is the crucial test. If one does not understand Kṛṣṇa and become submissive to surrender, he remains a demon, however big scholar he may be.

Morning Walk -- April 8, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That religiosity also different kinds: rajasic, tamasic, and sattvic, according to one's nature. The sattvic, they worship Viṣṇu. The rajasic, they worship the demigods. And the tamasic, they worship bhūta, preta, piśāca...

Devotee: Demons.

Prabhupāda: Demons. You'll see the Mohammedans, they worship the tomb. And Christian also, they worship the tomb. They offer wreath on the tomb. So tamasic. What is there in the tomb? But because they're tamasic, they're worshiping like that. And this, this so-called incarnation worship is also tamasic. By tamasic, in darkness they accept somebody as incarnation, and they worship. This is tamasic.

Prabhupāda: But the set is there, what I want. The set is there.

Girirāja: Yes. Now in the case of Jaya and Vijaya, who fell down and took the role of demons, after three births as demons, they were supposed to go back to the spiritual world. So after the three births in this universe, were the same pastimes going on in other universes.?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Whenever Kṛṣṇa desires that He is to fight with somebody, another must prepare himself for fighting, becomes His enemy. Because in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is no chance of fighting, therefore He sends His devotees to become His enemy and there He fights.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...yogino 'nante satyānande cid-ātmani, iti rāma-padenāsau paraṁ brahma ity abhidhīyate. So so long one chants Rāma Kṛṣṇa, who can kill him? Yes. That is the point. (break) When he constructed bridge on the ocean, the stones were floating. Where is the law of gravitation go on? So He can do that. He withdrew the law of gravitation. (break) ...position of the demons. Although he is not learned, he will give instruction.

Prabhupāda: ...sometimes dog attacks the master. Not only dog, animals. (break) ...the bitterest enemies of the demons, always. That is the position. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ. So demigods, they are devotees of Viṣṇu, and they are always enemies unto the demons. (break) ...especially in the heart of the saintly person, to kill the saintly person. So Kṛṣṇa also will be killed. Because Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart, therefore everyone is Kṛṣṇa. The same conclusion.

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa and everything is finished, all this nonsense place, full of demons.

Prabhupāda: In Indian villages—I have seen in Bengal—they keep cows, and they have got Viṣṇu śilā, especially in the house of a brāhmaṇa, all high caste (?). Yes. (break) Prahlāda Mahārāja, his father was a demon, but he was never afraid of Him. He was challenging, "Oh, my father..." He never said, "Father." He said, asura-varya: "the best of the demons." Tat sādhu manye asura-varya dehinām. When his father asked him, "My dear Prahlāda..." After all, he was child. "What you have learned best?" So he said, tat sādhu manye asura-varya. He is addressing his father, asura-varya, "the best of the demons." Tat sādhu manye: "I consider it very nice thing." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām.

Dr. Patel: So you think we are demons also.

Prabhupāda: No. (lots of laughter) Demons would not come daily to see Kṛṣṇa's ārati. That they'll not. That they'll not. No. I say that...

Dr. Patel: Tomorrow we are going to walk all the distance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I say that we devotees, we are not afraid even of demons. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Asad-grahāt. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). He asked the son, "What you have learned, the best thing, in school?" He said, "My dear asura-varya," not father, "My dear best of the demons, I think this is the best thing." "What is that?" "Now, these people," sadā samudvigna-dhiyām, "always anxious, full of anxiety..." Why? Asad-grahāt: "Because they accepted this material world as all in all.

Morning Walk -- April 20, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Just like when Kṛṣṇa is fighting. Kṛṣṇa is fighting, killing the demons. So that is also devotion, if you help Kṛṣṇa by killing demons, not that simply by chanting, you supply... Just like Bhismadeva. He even injured Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa took it very pleasant. Instead of throwing flowers, he pierced His body with arrow. So everything for the service. If Kṛṣṇa is pleased being pierced by the arrow the devotee will do that. His only business is how to please Kṛṣṇa. Just like, the example is given by Viśvanātha Cakravartī that when a man kisses a woman and bites her, she becomes pleased. Is it not? Is not a fact that that biting is pleasing? Is it pleasing? But sometimes it is pleasing. So one has to learn where to bite and when to... (chuckles) But if a rascal thinks that "Biting is pleasing. I shall bite always," then he is a rascal. (laughter) (break) ...lying down on the Yamunā beach, on the sand with His friends. And if we think, "No, there is no need of bedding of Kṛṣṇa. He was lying down on the Yamunā beach, so He will lie down on the floor." So is... That conclusion is very nice?

Mahāṁsa: No.

Prabhupāda: ...control his mouth.

Dr. Patel: This (indistinct) practically amongst all the, I mean, animals, lower and higher. There are demons who are against. Even horse, even birds, even snake. Eh?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Or to kill the demon, that is His mercy. Both of them. It is not that materially, as we think, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is taking side of this man and killing this man." No. Still, He is neutral, absolute.

Brahmānanda: The sahajiyās, they don't know that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Brahmānanda: Sahajiyās, they just go towards like the rasa-līlā, and they avoid the demon killing.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Brahmānanda: The sahajiyās.

Prabhupāda: Oh, they are rascals. Kick them out. They think everything is easy.

Prabhupāda: He played also. (Hindi) We used to say chor chor kela: "Catch up the feet." (Hindi) (break) ...and wonderful things, as they are mentioned, they were all manufactured by the demons.

Dr. Patel: māyā.

Prabhupāda: No, no, these wonderful scientific advancement, they were done by the demons. So they are demons. These so-called scientist, they re all demons.

Prabhupāda: No, no, engineer. Engineer are also demons, but he is no longer demon. Now doctors are demon. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...land only for this beach.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...between demons and gods. So god abides by the order of the Supreme Lord; the demons do not. That's all. They do indirectly, by force. Just like the demon has to die.

Dr. Patel: Both were the sons of Kaśyapa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Kaśyapa, gods and demons. By their behavior one sect became demons, no?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Vyāvahāreṇa jāyante. Canakya Paṇḍita has said na kaścid kasyacid mitro na kaścid kasyacid ripuḥ, vyāvahāreṇa jāyante: "Who is friend and who is enemy, it can be understood by the behavior." Vyāvahāreṇa jāyante mitrāṇi ripavas tathā.

Girirāja: Another thing we were discussing yesterday is that in Goloka there are no demons.

Prabhupāda: No. There cannot be any demons. Then how it is Vaikuṇṭha? Vaikuṇṭha means without any anxiety. So the situation of anxiety is created by the demons. Therefore, when Kṛṣṇa wants to fight, He has to come down here because there is no question of fighting. There is no chance of fighting. Everyone is devotee. A devotee will never agree. But they will agree Kṛṣṇa's fight, but here, in this field.

Prabhupāda: To earn money is also troublesome. To keep money also troublesome. And when it is lost, that is also troublesome. This is the position. But there is no such thing, loss, but the anxiety is there. We shall return from here? (break) ...vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. So both the sādhu and the duṣkṛtina, by Kṛṣṇa's two activities, act differently to the devotees and to the demons. They realize. That is their achievement. By punishment, this Kāliya realized, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord." And devotees, by out of love, they realize. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is Absolute. In either process He is realized. Mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ. If one is sincere, then they gradually make progress. Yes. (break) ...vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām.

Bhāgavata: ...actually are devotees or how do they become demons? Are they devotees? Obviously Kāliya is... Just like Jaya and Vijaya, they were devotees. And due to some offense, then they became demons and they fought with Kṛṣṇa to satisfy Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who is living in this material world is a demon. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is your mother?

Indian Lady: She is at home.

Bhāgavata: But only certain demons get to fight with Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is special demon.

Bhāgavata: So those special demons, are they are all like Jaya and Vijaya, are they all in that position?

Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily.