Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many places. The living entity is described in the Bhagavad-gītā as sarvaga. Sarvaga means he can go anywhere within this universe. He can go in the spiritual sky also. Sarvaga means including everywhere, if he likes. As I explained yesterday, last night, yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). If he likes, he can go to the planets of the demigods, to the Pitrloka, he can remain here, or if he likes, he can go to the planet of Kṛṣṇa. He has got this freedom. Just like there are many government posts. You can select any one of them, but you must be qualified for that. So it is a question of qualification, how you can go to the planets of the demigods, how you can go to the planet of the pitṛs. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā (BG 14.18). If you develop your modes of goodness, then you go to the, promoted to the higher planets because in the higher planets, the third-class living entities are not allowed.
Demigods (Conv. 1968 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Reporter: Yes. I told Dan that was what I was interested in. I have background information on the movement, for instance, and yourself.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So far the movement is concerned, it has nothing to do with the moon planetary journey, it has nothing to do. But in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the authoritative Vedic scripture which we generally follow, in that scripture there is statement that for promoting oneself to the moon planet, one has to accustom himself to the different kind of worshiping process. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated that yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). Those who are worshiper of the demigods, they are promoted to different planets of the particular demigods. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ. And those who are worshiper of the pitṛs, or forefathers, they go to that planet. Similarly, one who is engaged in worshiping the Supreme Lord, he also goes to the supreme planet. These informations are there in the Bhagavad-gītā. And so far moon planet is concerned, that is within this material world. Those who are pious actors, those who are engaged in pious activities according to Vedic rituals, they can go to the moon planet. That is stated in the...
Reporter: Those who are engaged in what activities?
Prabhupāda: Pious. There are two kinds of activities: vicious and pious.
Reporter: Does this basis of knowledge include any information about beings and how they would react to people from another planet? Is there anything containing, you know, how they would react? How the moon people react to the earth people coming there?
Prabhupāda: Of course, such description is not in the Vedas, but in some sources we can understand that one king wanted to enter the heavenly kingdom, but he was opposed. He was opposed by the demigods. So much information we have got. So those who are not fit to live there or enter there, maybe they will be opposed by the inhabitants there. And that is also natural to think. If somebody all of a sudden comes to your country, oh, there is immediately immigration department. They will see the bona fides, how you can enter? So why don't you take that also? If moon planet is inhabited by more intelligent class of living entities how do we expect that without opposition we will be allowed to enter?
Reporter: So they are said to be a more intelligent entities.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Oh yes. They are living ten thousand years, they are not intelligent? Their standard of living, their mode of civilization, their mode of thinking, everything is higher than this planet.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: And he was opposed by the demigods?
Prabhupāda: Demigods, or the residents in the heavenly planet.
Hayagrīva: Like I mentioned, there are three planets, three... There are the lower planetary systems, middle planetary systems, and higher planetary systems. And this earth is considered to be in the middle planetary system of the universe. It's called a middle planet.
Reporter: Would that relate to anything that we're talking about?
Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated that there are three planetary system, upper, lower and middle. So ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti, those who are in the modes of goodness, they are allowed to live in the upper planetary system. And those who are in the modes of passion, they are allowed to live in this middle planetary system, and those who are in the modes of ignorance, they are allowed to live in the lower planetary system.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their position. Just like people are trying to go to the moon planet. I have given my opinion. You have seen in the Los Angeles Times? This chance is very remote.
Journalist: Oh?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Suppose in your country, you have got some quota for immigration. Within this planet, if somebody comes, without your immigration department's order, nobody can enter. How do you expect in that planet where the people are more advanced, they are called demigods, they are living for ten thousand years, how you expect that you go and you are immediately enter into the moon planet? And they are selling tickets, reservation. You see? Everything, they make a fun of it, you see?
Journalist: Let me understand this if I may. Are you saying that there are people on the moon?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Journalist: There are. And they are demigods?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Journalist: But they're demigods.
Prabhupāda: The demigods means they are highly advanced than these human beings. They are also living entities like us, but their duration of life, their standard of life, their civilization, spiritual knowledge, so advanced that they are called demigods. Almost God. They are so advanced. Demigods means almost God. They have got all godly qualities, and they are controller of the atmospheric affairs. Some of them are controlling rainy season, some of them controlling heat. As you have got controller here, some departmental director of this department, director of that department, similarly why don't you think that this cosmic manifestation, there is a great brain behind it and there are different directors and there is management? People do not accept it. Nature. What do you mean by nature? Such nice things, such wonderful things are going on automatically, without any control? You see?
Journalist: Well, I know that's a question that, of course, one asks oneself all the time, I guess. It's part of man's quest to find himself and...
Prabhupāda: But they should have common sense that you are trying to float one sputnik, so many scientific brains are working. And millions of wonderful sputniks which are called planets, they are floating in the air, there is no brain behind it. What is this? Is that very good reasoning?
Journalist: I don't know. I must ponder that.
Prabhupāda: You should know it. How it can be. There must be a very big brain behind this. They are working.
Journalist: Now do you say that the moon is, so to speak...? What should I say? Headquarters, where these demigods live?
Prabhupāda: No, there are many planets on the same level. There are many planets. Moon is one of them.
Journalist: Have any of these demigod creatures visited the earth or...
Prabhupāda: Formerly they used to because at that time people were worth to see them. You see?
Journalist: When you say formerly, you mean thousands of years ago or...
Prabhupāda: No. At least five thousand years ago.
Journalist: At least, five thousand years ago the last time that any, that we would... Are they in human form?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So far we get information, sometimes great sacrifices were performed, and demigods from other planets, they were invited, and they used to come.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Allen Ginsberg: Did Caitanya, did Lord Caitanya worship Sarasvatī? No.
Prabhupāda: No. He was Vaiṣṇava. But every demigod is worshiped. It is not that one should neglect...
Allen Ginsberg: Oh, respect. He respected.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: I know one mantra in Bengali to Sarasvatī. Jaya jaya devī jaya jara sari, kuchuku viśori mukta vihārī vīra nandita pulake vihati bhagavati... (?) (etc)
Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. Sarasvatī-stotra, yes. Students are supposed to offer stotras, students specially.
Allen Ginsberg: So that's a mantra for students, for Sarasvatī.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vidya, the goddess of learning, Sarasvatī. In our childhood we used to worship Sarasvatī: "Please, mother, give me pass this examination." That was our prayer. So other students, they laughed very loudly. They thought that "Caitanya has come out very victorious within a second." He said, "No. Stop." Then He stopped all these talkings, and... "So you are so... I have to talk with you. You are very learned." Ordinary formalities. Then he went away. And he was also great worshiper of mother Sarasvatī. Then he began to pray to Sarasvatī, "Mother Sarasvatī, by your grace I have become victorious in so many places.
Prabhupāda: One scene you have to show that in the Ganges water people are taking bath, and there is on the sky beginning of the moon eclipse, lunar eclipse. And they are all chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and taking bath. And exactly at that time Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared. This is one scene. And the appearance of Caitanya Mahāprabhu should be underneath a tree. Under this scene, this scene, one... Advaita Prabhu's wife, Śrīvāsa's wife, they were elderly, and all other women of the village, they immediately came with presentation. And some of the demigods, they also came, I mean to say, disguising themselves as ordinary men, with presentation. And His father got so many valuable presentations. And then again, some of the professional dancers, they came. So he distributed charity to them. In this way, that function... Try to...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Was Nārada there? Did Nārada Muni come?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Nārada Muni also came. You can show that. Yes. all the devatas, all the demigods came. Nārada Muni, Brahmā, Śiva. They came in disguise, and their wife, Savitri, and then Umā. Umā is the wife of Lord Śiva. In that way you can show so many demigods and their wives coming.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also there is a story in the Bhāgavatam about the girls; they were offering to Lord Śiva.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another feature of Lord Caitanya. He taught in that instruction that there is no need of worshiping demigods. The incident is that in India the unmarried girls, they are encouraged to worship Lord Śiva especially in the month of Vaiśākha, March-April. And they will go to the Ganges side and prepare Śivaliṅga, and they'll... That means Śiva will be pleased upon them to offer a husband like Lord Śiva. Śiva is very peaceful and very great devotee and most powerful at the same time. So that is the ideal husband. So they brought worshipable paraphernalia for worshiping Śiva on the bank of the Ganges, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as naughty boy, approached them. "Oh, my dear sister, what you are doing? Oh, you have brought so many nice things. Give it to Me, and Lord Śiva will be very much pleased. Oh, you are worshiping Durga? She is My maidservant and Lord Śiva is a great devotee of Me. So you please offer Me all these things; they will be satisfied. You don't require to offer separately." By this, He wanted to instruct that worshiping the Supreme Lord is the appeasement of other demigods. You don't require to appease them separately. This instruction. Then some girls will hesitate. Then He will curse them that "You'll be married with an old man having seven children by his former wife." So they will be afraid, "Oh, maybe this boy is cursing..." Then out of fear they'll offer. Then He said, "Oh, you'll have a very nice young husband and you'll have seven children by him." In this way it was going on.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Girirāja: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say, "O my Lord, You have no leg, You have no hand, You have no eyes," that means, "You are blind, You are lame, You are headless," (laughter) "You have no sense"—"You are nonsense." So this is prayer. This is their prayer. So we have to fight vigorously with these rascal impersonalists and voidists. When I was talking, somebody left the meeting in the morning. Yes. That means he could not tolerate (laughs) all these designations-rascal, miscreants, lowest of the mankind. Yes.
Devotee (2): In this mantra of Śrī Upaniṣad, Mantra Twelve,
- andhaṁ tamaḥ praviśanti
- ye 'sambhūtim upāsate
- tato bhūya iva te tamo
- ya u sambhūtyāṁ ratāḥ
It says, "Those engaged in worship of the demigods enter the darkest region of ignorance, and still more do the worshipers of the Absolute." But this means that the impersonalists, "those who are worshiping Absolute"?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (2): Then why is it seen that they are making spiritual advancement?
Prabhupāda: No, they don't make any spiritual advancement. They come down. Don't you see this impersonalist, Vivekananda? He took sannyāsa; he came to hospital-making, came back. They are not advancing. They are coming back, falling down. While they have no engagement in devotional service, they say, "Oh, why you are finding God anywhere? Here is God, daridra-nārāyaṇa, these poor men." That's it. That is not advancement. They are coming down. Now, they come down and they defame Nārāyaṇa, that "Nārāyaṇa has become daridra." He has found Nārāyaṇa is daridra.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: If you cannot... if you remain demon then there is no question of improvement. You must be prepared to become... There are two classes of men. One is called god, or demigod; another is called demon. If you continue your demonic civilization, there is no question of happiness. That Hitler will come and this will come, that will... They will fight for some time, create some disturbance and go away. Another Hitler will come, another will come, another will come. This way.
Journalist (1): There will always be unhappiness amongst...
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is you cannot be happy and prosperous in this demonic civilization.
Journalist (1): What about the Western religions like Christianity? That's been with us now for two thousand years and doesn't seem to have helped people to become particularly...
Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand what is religion. Then you come to different types of religion. Religion means to understand God. Do you agree to that or not?
Journalist (1): So if Christian religion is teaching to understand God and to become obedient to God, then it is all right. If it is not teaching that then it is useless. Simply by stamping, "I am Christian," what do you gain by that?
Journalist (1): Well nothing, but that...
Prabhupāda: That is going on. Simply by stamping, "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." "I am Christian." What is the gain?
Prabhupāda: That is not necessary. That is not necessary. If we worship other demigods to fulfill our, some particular desire... (Hindi) There are different demigods they worship, but one who knows that "If I approach Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, then everything is obtained..."
Guest: You say a true devotee of Kṛṣṇa, such a person need not go after the demigods?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Guest: Secondly...
Prabhupāda: There is no need.
Guest: But if he goes after demigods...
Prabhupāda: If he wants some material profit. (Hindi conversation) So kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20).
Guest: In that expansion can't we take Durgā and Siva, even for...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is śakti-tattva. We have to take expansion according to the tattva. Substance and categories; in which category. The substance is Viṣṇu, and all other tattvas are categories. So devatās, they are śakti-tattva, śakti category, the same category as you are. The same example. Just like here a government officer, he is also Indian gentleman, you are also Indian gentleman, but he has got his power on account of his high qualities. Similarly you can become also Durgā. You can become Indra, Candra, Sūrya. So qualitatively the ant, you are a learned brāhmaṇa, they are all the same category.
- vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
- brahmaṇe gavi hastini
- śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
- paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
- (BG 5.18)
A paṇḍita knows that they are on the same jīva-tattva categories. Viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, there are many tattvas. Brahman-tattva, paramātmā-tattva, and Bhagavat-tattva, they are the substance, and all other tattvas, they are jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, like that. So Bhagavān is not jīva-tattva, but others, they are jīva-tattva. Demigods, they are jīva-tattva. Brahma is also jīva-tattva. Devī is śakti-tattva. Jīva is also śakti-tattva. In one sense jīva-tattva is higher than this material śakti-tattva.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Man and woman. So if you want to get liberation from this material world, then that attachment should be reduced to nil. Otherwise, simply for that attachment, you'll have to take birth and rebirth, either as human being or as demigod or as an animal, as a serpent, as a bird, as a beast. You have to take birth. So this basic principle of attachment, increasing, is not our business. It is decreasing. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalam. This is the general tendency, but if one can reduce and stop it, that is first class. Therefore our Vedic system is that first of all a boy is trained as a brahmacārī, no sex life. Brahmacārī. He goes to the teacher's home. (pause—a devotee chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa over loudspeaker is very loud.) Who is this? Stop it. (break) The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇāśrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process.
Prabhupāda: Now, our simple philosophy is that we are spirit soul. We are eternal. You are eternal. I am eternal. Everyone is eternal. We are changing our body, transmigrating from one body to another. And that means repetition of birth and death, but we are eternal. Why we are in such botheration of repetition of birth and death? Not only that, sometimes in some species of life, may be very high position, sometimes in low position. Suppose somebody is American, and the next life, if he becomes a tree, if he becomes a dog... He may become a demigod also. There is possibility. Just like in future you may be a... (break) ...understand this movement thoroughly and take it seriously. It is for good welfare, for very good welfare. Now, in Europe, America, here also, so many frustrated young boys, they are coming to be practically of no value to the country. In America I see thousands of hippies, they are doing nothing. So what is the future of the country? If the flowers of the country, young boys, they do not take interest in anything, in administration, in industry, then what is the future? From economic point of view I have studied that America, for want of sufficient workers, they are importing goods from Japan. This is not very good sign.
Prabhupāda: Because God knows beyond this willing orbit, nobody can think of. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He thought that "I can save myself by this way. I shall not die night, in daytime, or I shall not die in the sky. I shall not die in the water. I shall not die on land. No man can kill me. No animal can kill me. No demigod can kill me." In this way he thought, "Oh." But still, keeping all the promises, he was made to die. So there is no such thing as chance without plan.
Prabhupāda: At once. Yes. The newspaper said that "Mr. such and such went to moon planet." Oh, immediately believe. See? A newspaper, ten cent worth newspaper. And in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva vratā devān: (BG 9.25) "One who can... One can go to the demigods planets by worshiping them. You can go, yānti deva vratā devān, as others. Similarly, one can come to Me by worshiping Me." Mad yājino 'pi yānti mām. So they never worshiped Chandra, and how they can go to the Chandra planet, or moon planet? Then Kṛṣṇa is false. Kṛṣṇa is imperfect. They become perfect. They are defying Kṛṣṇa's instruction. They have gone to moon planet. Then our whole propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes bogus. Therefore I always protest.
Martin: So there's something higher than human form?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Demigods. (Sanskrit) Generally three divisions: demigods, human beings and other than human beings.
Martin: Primitive cavemen?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Martin: Primitive cavemen?
Prabhupāda: No, not only cavemen: the animals, birds, beasts, other than.
Martin: Oh, I see. (more thunder)
Prabhupāda: But this human form of life is better than demigods' life because demigods, they are materially very opulent. Just like when the Americans came in India, they thought, "Demigods." Is it not?
Martin: The Indians thought. Hm.
Prabhupāda: Because they're better looking, good looking, intelligent, powerful. Similarly, just like this controller or director of this rain department is Indra. This thundering, it is under his direction this thundering is going on. He throws the thunderbolts and cracks the mountain, and then we get chunks. That is his business. As in government there are different departments, similarly, God has got different departments, and the in-charge of that department is demigod. Creation, that's Brahma; sustenance or maintenance, Himself, Viṣṇu; and dissolution, Lord Siva.
Martin: How is human life better than that?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Martin: How is the human life better than the demigod?
Prabhupāda: Better than in this way, that just like here also on this planet, those who are richer section, they particularly do not care to know what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They're proud, puffed-up for material opulence. "Ah, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let us enjoy drink." That is their position. So it is a curse for them. Their richness is a curse for them, that they cannot adore such a nice movement. The middle class section, they are being attracted. Similarly, the demigods, they have got very, very high standard of life, duration of life, beauty, opulence, facilities, so generally they forget.
Martin: These demigods are what we call angels?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: So how does science fit in with all of this?
Prabhupāda: Hm? Let him speak.
Martin: This is why I'm here. I know science...
Prabhupāda: Hm? He can...
Martin: I, I know a bit of where it's going, and I don't find it compelling, fulfilling.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): "We are simply Your maidservants and slaves. Please, therefore, accept us by showing us Your lotuslike beautiful face. Dear Kṛṣṇa, actually we have become very lusty, having been touched by Your lotus feet. Your lotus feet certainly kill all kinds of sinful activities of devotees who have taken shelter there. You are so kind that even the ordinary animals take shelter under Your lotus feet. Your lotus feet are also the residence of the goddess of fortune, yet You dance on the head of the Kāliya serpent with them. Now we are requesting You to kindly place Your lotus feet on our breasts and pacify our lusty desires to touch You. O Lord, Your attractive eyes, like the lotus, are so nice and pleasing. Your sweet words are so fascinating that they please even the greatest scholars, who also become attracted to You. We are also attracted by Your speaking and by the beauty of Your face and eyes. Please, therefore, satisfy us by Your nectarean kisses. Dear Lord, words spoken by You or words describing Your activities are full of nectar, and simply by speaking or hearing Your words one can be saved from the blazing fire of material existence. Great demigods like Lord Brahma and Lord Siva are always engaged in chanting the glories of Your words. (devotees continue reading for several pages) Great yogis like Lord Siva, Lord Brahma or even Lord Śeṣa and others always try to fix their attention upon Kṛṣṇa in their heart, but here the gopīs actually saw Kṛṣṇa seated before them on their cloths."
Prabhupāda: This is yoga. This is yoga system, to see Kṛṣṇa within your heart. That is real.
Devotee (2): (continues reading until end of chapter) (end)
Prabhupāda: The demons. Demons. Demons. Just like Lord Rāmacandra fought with the demons, so similarly, Kṛṣṇa conscious person will fight with the demons. That is already there. Demons and demigod always fight. Devāsura-yuddha, you know? That is history. We don't say that fighting should be stopped. We don't say that. We don't say that becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, nonviolence. That is bogus. In Delhi when there was not..., declaration of war between Pakistan and India, press representative came: "Swamiji, what is your opinion about this fight?" I said, "You must fight." And it was published in the paper. It gave some agitation. They were glad. I said, "You must fight." And that was published in big letters in... So we are not that kind of sādhu and Vaiṣṇava, that we don't take care of practical things. When there is need of fight, we shall fight.
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you preach, you can say all these things with so-called Christians. So what you are doing for God? Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). Just like sun. The sun is absorbing urine. Can you drink urine? If you want to imitate sun, "Oh, here is sun absorbing urine. Let me drink urine," can you? Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya. He is powerful. He can do everything. Therefore we cannot imitate Him. We have to simply abide by His order. That is real Christian. You cannot imitate powerful man. That is wrong. Just like in our Vedic literature there was a poison ocean. So what.... People became puzzled what to do with this—this demigod. Then Lord Śiva said, "All right. I'll drink it." So he drank the whole poison ocean and kept it in his throat, nīlakaṇṭha. Now, you drink poison? Not the ocean. You drink one cup. So how you can imitate Lord Śiva? Lord Śiva never advised that we drink poison. So you have to abide by the advice, not by imitating, "Oh, Lord Śiva..." Just like this LSD and marijuana, they say sometimes, "Lord Śiva used to smoke gāñjā." They say like that. But Lord Śiva drank the whole poison ocean. Can you do that? Lord Śiva's instruction should be taken. He says, "The best worship is to worship Viṣṇu," viṣṇu ārādhanaṁ param. When Śiva was asked by Pārvatī that "What method of worship is first-class?" Then he said, "The first-class worship is worshiping Lord Viṣṇu." Viṣṇu ārādhanaṁ param. Tasmāt parataraṁ devi tadīyānām ārādhanam. He said the Viṣṇu worship is the best. There are many demigods, but he recommended, "Viṣṇu worship is the best." And the better than Viṣṇu worship is to worship Vaiṣṇava. Tadīyānām ārādhanam. Tadīyā means His servant, or one who is, or what is in relationship with Him. Just like we are worshiping this plant, Tulasī. We are not worshiping all plants, but because this Tulasī has very intimate connection with Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu, therefore we are worshiping. Tadīyānām ārādhanam. Similarly, anything who is intimately related with Kṛṣṇa, worship of that thing is better than worship of Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is nothing. That period of time is relative. As human beings, we live for some time-say for a hundred years—but there are demigods who can live for millions of years. And an ant will live for only a few hours. So this is relative. But time is eternal, and what is happening in so-called human history has no consideration from the viewpoint of eternal time. That is all relative. If there is some catastrophe in ant society, the ants may be very much concerned, but human society does not take any notice of it. Similarly, if a catastrophe occurs in human society, the demigods, who are higher than us, do not consider it. Some birds or cats or dogs may be fighting, and for them it may be a catastrophe, but for us it is nothing. This is the relative world, and we should know that what has happened in this world is not worthy of consideration in terms of universal affairs. Things are coming and going like seasonal changes. Arjuna put this question to Kṛṣṇa: "This is a catastrophe! I have to kill my own men." Although Arjuna believed this to be a catastrophe, Kṛṣṇa likened it to seasonal changes. Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ (BG 2.14). "O son of Kuntī, the non-permanent appearance of happiness and distress and their disappearance in due course are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons." In the winter season water is not very pleasant, but in the summer it is very pleasing.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they cannot go.
Prabhupāda: They cannot go because according to Vedic description, moon is a planet for demigods. So they have got better brain. So they saw that "These rascals are coming here. All right, let them go to desert side." They have got their machine also. If they have got better brain, they can divert you. Why not think in that way? Their theory is that all other planets there is no life. Only this planet is favored by God, there is life. We say even in the sun planet there is life. (break) (indistinct) Here is your transport(?). We are trying to send back to home, back to Godhead. This is real transport.
Prabhupāda: There is no temple in India. As we are maintaining our temple, there is no such temple in India. There are temple, they are neglected. Just like here, the churches are neglected. (break) ...demons, and here we are manufacturing demigods.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I read in the news that in the next five-year plan, they are planning to spend about thirty-two billion rupees for education, the greatest for ten years. They said that there were so many mistakes for the last ten years in introducing the basic education that everybody said there is no success. So they are planning another thirty-two billion rupees from 1974 onwards.
Prabhupāda: What education? To eat meat and beef.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That education. And no restriction of sex even amongst the leaders.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Devotee: Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati (BG 5.29). "Translation: The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, obtain peace from the pangs of material miseries."
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Devotee: "The conditioned souls in the clutches of the illusory energy are all anxious to attain peace in the material world. They do not know the formula for peace which is explained in this part of the Bhagavad-gītā. The greatest peace formula is simply this. Lord Kṛṣṇa is the beneficiary in all human activities. Men should offer everything to the transcendental service of the Lord because He is the proprietor of all planets and the demigods thereon. No one is greater than He. He is greater than the greatest of the demigods, Lord Śiva and Lord Brahmā. In the Vedas the Supreme Lord is described as param īśvarānāṁ paramaṁ maheśvaram. Under the spell of illusion, living entities are trying to be lords of all they survey. But actually they are dominated by the material energy of the Lord. The Lord is the master of material nature and the conditioned souls are under the stringent rules of material nature."
Prabhupāda: That is the defect. Lord is the master of material nature, and we are conditioned by the material nature and still we are claiming, "I am God."
Prabhupāda: And they're acting actually as brāhmaṇa. There are many Mohammedans also. You came from Mohammedan. So it is the process of presenting the perfect educational system. Then everyone will accept. Any intelligent man will accept. It is a science. So you have to push this scientific movement throughout the whole world. That is our program. It is not a so-called Hindu cult or a Indian cult. No. It is science to be accepted by everyone if he at all wants to, I mean to say, purify or make his life perfect. Otherwise, he's in darkness. He does not know what he's going to accept another body. He has to accept another body, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). It does not say that this kind of body, dehāntaram, another body. Not..., it is up to you to select what kind of body I am going to accept. I am going to become a cat or dog or a demigod or a big man or a... They do not know yet. This science is unknown to the whole world. We are trying to push on this scientific movement. This is our position. So if you want to cooperate with this scientific movement, then we are prepared. But if you have some other idea, that is different thing. But if we take it seriously as a scientific movement, then we are prepared to cooperate. And if (you) should do, simply formality will not help us.
Prabhupāda: By religion?
Guest (1): No. But I study Shintoism in Japan. (indistinct) This is the base of culture, Japanese culture (indistinct) the western modern civilization based on Descartes (indistinct) many gods and goddess...
Devotee: Shintoism is a very old Japanese religion, they have many worshiping of demigods and goddesses...
Guest (1): Yes, the same, classic Greek mythology based on modern western civilization. And do you understand Japanese, all character (indistinct) ...logical study based on Shintoism basic of (indistinct) from south island (indistinct) and Mongolian (indistinct) one race (indistinct) one Japanese (indistinct) by Shintoism, world mythology, same as the Greek mythology, gods and (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: What you are doing here?
Guest (1): No program (indistinct) ...pension (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Get pension from Japan?
Guest (1): From Japan, twenty-five percent of salary.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the varieties of living entities that we find in the material world, can we explain because of the desire of the living entities, to make..., to live in different houses?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows. Just like government constructs a prison house. Government knows there will be rascals, criminals. So already is there prison. Before the judgement the prison house is already there. Sarva-jña. God is sarva-jña. He knows everything. So He knows that some of them will come out criminal. Just like king knows that not that always everyone will be honest. There will be dishonest. So construct this prisonhouse. Like that. God knows, Kṛṣṇa knows that this material world, the varieties of desires according to the modes of material nature... So there are three modes of... You can calculate also. Just like there are three modes of material nature, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Now if you make variety, three into three, it becomes nine. And nine into nine, it becomes eighty-one. So there is eighty-four. What is the difficulty to understand? These three qualities, just like three colors, blue, red and yellow, you mix. Oh, thousands of different colors you will find. It is the expert color combination. That's all. Similarly this material world is made of three qualities and if you make varieties, mix them again eighty-one to eighty-one you can mix. So it requires expert handling. So that expert handling is there. Nature is there. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). Guṇaiḥ. This very word is used, guṇaiḥ. By the qualities, prakṛti is manufacturing different types of body, varieties of body: plants, trees, aquatics, human beings, demigods, cats, dogs, so many things, 8,400,000.
Prabhupāda: So if that, even parallel, then there is Brahmā. He is most advanced. Why do you say there was no human being? There was. Therefore their theory, "In such and such era the human life began," that is wrong if they accept parallel. They are existing always. And as we see. Now as we see, the trees are there, birds are there, animals are there, human beings are there, God is there, demigod is there. Everything is there. Where is the question of evolution? Simply we have to enter. That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Do we have anything, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the reference, saying that all the living entities are already there?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that jīva-jātiṣu.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, and that implies?
Prabhupāda: Jīva-jāti, different grades of jīva. Jāti, you know jāti?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Kṛṣṇa. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. According to the nature's direction I am getting body, I am giving it up, again I am desiring something, I am getting another body. This is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). He is a rascal. He is thinking, "I am this body." Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). This is a yantra, machine. And we are traveling many species of life, all riding on this car, given by nature. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. Māyā has given this vehicle, anywhere wandering, up and down, sometimes demigod, sometimes dog. This is going on. And in this wandering process, if he gets in touch with a devotee, then his real spiritual life begins. Otherwise he has to go on, rotating.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles.) Yes. So this education is wanting. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As soon as one understands that "I'll have to change my, this body; then what kind of body I'm going to get next life." That next inquiry will be. Then he is intelligent. Then he is intelligent. Just like one man is working somewhere. Now, notice is given that "From such and such date, your work will not be required." Then you become anxious to know: "Then what shall I do next." I have to work. So similarly, if a person understands that he's going to change this body... Just like I'm an old man. I'll have to change in, say, immediately, or say five years, ten years. But the notice is already there because I am old man. So it is my duty to think: "Then what body I'm going to take next?" That is intelligence. And we have to prepare for that. So that is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā: yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can prepare yourself to go the higher planetary system, where demigods live. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ. You can go to the Pitṛloka. Bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā. If you want to remain within this planetary system,... yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām. "And anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he comes to Me," Kṛṣṇa says. So why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). "If one comes to My place, he never comes back again in the material world." That is intelligence. Why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? But they have no intelligence. They're spoiling their life, simply living like cats and dogs. This is the position. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save them, that "Don't go again to the cats and dogs category; go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa." There is... Here is the possibility. Kṛṣṇa says. Why don't you take advantage of this? Kṛṣṇa says: janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ: (BG 4.9) "Anyone who tries to understand Me, Kṛṣṇa, what I am..." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, one stops his rebirth in this material form. He goes back to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are training people that "You have to take another body. So what is the use of taking...? Even if you take the body of demigod, like Brahmā, millions of years age..." That is stated in the Bhag ... ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16).
Prabhupāda: So these devotees, they have not been separately instructed about hospitality. But because they are devotees of the Lord, this hospitality automatically they learn. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one becomes perfectly a devotee of the Lord, all the good qualities of demigods manifest automatically. The hospitality is also a good quality. So out of many good qualities, this is one of them. So these devotees, they are automatically well-behaving to the guests, newcomers on account of their advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because a Kṛṣṇa conscious person takes everyone, not only human being, but even animals, insects, trees, birds, beasts, everyone, living entities, as part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. So it is their duty to behave well with all living entities. Not only the human beings, but also even with the animals. Ahiṁsā. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). The ahiṁsā preached by Lord Buddha, that is also one of the qualifications of devotee. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So we are preaching... Every religion preaches, but people do not follow. The Christian religion also preaches ahiṁsā: "Thou shall not kill," but they do not follow.
Prabhupāda: Simply by becoming Sanskrit scholar or Latin scholar, it is not sufficient. He must be God-realized, purified. Then it is possible. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ: (Brs. 1.2.234) "By your these blunt senses it is not possible to understand what is God, what is His form, what is His name, what is His quality, what is His kingdom, what is His paraphernalia." These things are to be understood. God means... Just like when we speak of "king." King does not mean alone. King means he has got his queen, he has got his kingdom, he has got his secretary, he has got his minister, he has got his palace, he has... so many things, king, royal. When we speak of Queen, we immediately remember the Buckingham Palace, his (her) bodyguards and so many, so many other things. Similarly, God means He has got His entourage also, everything. He's not alone. To understand God means to understand everything of God—His name, His fame, His līlā, His pastimes. So nāmādi. With all these blunt senses, how can we... We cannot understand even the Personality of Godhead, what to speak of other things? "God is a person:"—it is a very difficult subject matter for ordinary man to take it, very difficult subject. That is stated in the... Even the demigods they cannot understand. That is... Because he's thinking materially that "This cosmic manifestation, then creation, is so big, and it is created by a person. How it is possible?" But... Because they do not know what is that person. Simply by the word "person," he is afraid: "Oh, oh, oh, oh."
Revatīnandana: "No person except He's like me."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the Vedic scripture says, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). His person is different. Sac-cid-ānanda. That is not exactly with our personality. This is material. This is temporary personality. Now I am man. Next time I may become dog, Next time become demigod. It is changing. It is not eternal, sat. So God is not like that. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). He does not come here being forced by the material energy. He comes by His spiritual energy. Sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā. Find out this. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Therefore, as soon as He's accepted as ordinary man, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11). He does not know what is the power behind that. Read it.
Pradyumna: Ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san, prakṛtiṁ svām adhiṣṭhāya...
Prabhupāda: Prakṛtiṁ svām adhiṣṭhāya.
Woman: Not that. Not that.
Prabhupāda: No, not like that. Unless you endeavor for going to Kṛṣṇa, there is no possibility. That is there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ (SB 1.5.18). Human life is meant for trying for that thing which he has not achieved by wandering up and down. So a living entity is wandering up and down, sometimes in the higher planetary system and lower planetary system, sometimes this, sometimes rich, sometimes poor, sometimes this, sometimes a cat, sometimes dog, sometimes demigod. In this way he is suffering. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān (CC Madhya 19.151). You understand Bengali?
In this way...
Man: (indistinct), is it?
Prabhupāda: ...in this way a living entity is wandering, but by fortune, if he gets in touch, guru-kṛṣṇa, a bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa, a guru, by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, because Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart, then he gets the seed of devotional service. And if he cultivates that devotional service, then he goes. This is the process. Not that because one has suffered so much, therefore automatically.
Prabhupāda: So he should be insulted everywhere. Our men should go and do that, pie. (laughter) And when you have to (indistinct) He's God. Why can't you protect. He should have been killed. We have no such power. Otherwise, I would have obliged to kill him. Anyone says God, he should be killed. That is the example given by Kṛṣṇa. He should be killed. No other remedy. Only kill him. That's all. Then this false propaganda will stop. Just like the Christians said: Jesus Christ, God. And how God can be killed by crucification? We do not discuss this point, but actually this is the fact. He was empowered man, that we can understand. But we cannot accept him God. In our history, God is never killed. God kills others. That we have got evidence. And ordinary men, they took him, and crucified, and nobody, other, of the opposite party was killed. So that makes a little difference. So far son of God, that we accept. Everyone is son of God. We accept him śaktyāveśa avatāra, a living entity especially powered from God. That we can accept. So son of God we can accept. That is another thing. And where is the evidence in the śāstras that God was killed? Big, big giant, God fought them and killed them. Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Kaṁsa. Very, very great giant and demon. God was never killed by them. Is it not? Yes. Prahlāda Mahārāja said that: "What is this material power. My father was so materially strong. Even demigods and Indra, Candra, they were afraid.
Pradyumna:
- yānti deva-vratā devān
- pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
- bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā
- yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām.
- (BG 9.25)
"Those who worship the demigods will take birth amongst the demigods."
Prabhupāda: Higher planetary system of demigods, yes.
Pradyumna: "Those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth amongst such beings. Those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors. And those who worship Me will live with Me."
Prabhupāda: Yes. So we can transfer to any form of body. Simply you have to prepare. But if we remain in our original body then you go back to home, back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So who can become fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa unless he's a devotee? So it is a transaction between God and His devotee. That's a fact. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). These are the clear declaration. He's asking everyone, "Just become My devotee. Always think of Me. Offer Me obeisances." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. "Worship Me." Māṁ namaskuru. He, He is deprecating the worship of demigods. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ. Find out this verse. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām: (BG 7.23) "Less intelligent persons, they simply worship the demigods." This is the statement.
Ambassador: Most of... Well, I mean, I was a very political person. I must be very honest with you.
Prabhupāda: No, I'm talking of...
Ambassador: To me, Gītā means Gandhi's Gītā which said in a very distorted, very limited version...
Prabhupāda: Gandhi did not know anything about Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Although the same thing, but action is different. If you become devotee of Lord Śiva, you'll get opportunity of material opulences. Because Lord Śiva is the husband of Durgā, and Durgā is the superintendent of this material world. So Durgā is under control. If one becomes a devotee of Lord Śiva, then Durgā gives him, eh? Dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpavatī-bhāryāṁ dehi yaśo dehi. So you'll get all this, nice position, nice wife, nice power, famous... All this material, not spiritual. So to worship any other demigod than Kṛṣṇa is materialism. That is not spiritualism.
Prabhupāda: That is the translation. Purport?
Śrutakīrti: "Purport: As far as the duties of mankind are concerned. There are innumerable duties. Every man is duty-bound, not only to his parents, family members, society, country, humanity, other living beings, the demigods, etc., but also to the great philosophers, poets, scientists etc. It is enjoined in the scriptures that one can relinquish all such duties and surrender unto the service of the Lord. So if one does so and becomes successful in the discharge of his devotional service unto the Lord, it is well and good. But it so happens sometimes that one surrenders himself unto the service of the Lord by some temporary sentiment and in the long run, due to so many other reasons, he falls down from the path of service by undesirable association. There are so many instances of this in the histories. Bharata Mahārāja was obliged to take his birth as a stag due to his intimate attachment to a stag. He thought of this stag when he died. As such, in the next birth he became a stag, although he did not forget the incidents of his previous birth. Similarly Citraketu also fell down due to his offense..."
Prabhupāda: Therefore we forbid to take to the karmī's life. Because at the time of death, if he remains a karmī, then he'll have to take birth as a karmī. That is the risk. So this regulated life, holding class, chanting, that will not make us fall down. That is essential. It is essential, regulate, to follow the regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds, holding class. You can do anything, but this will keep us alive to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform. If you neglect that, then that is very risky. Even if you get next life birth in a rich man's family, that is not guarantee.
Prabhupāda: Demon. Demon. (laughs) Prahlāda Mahārāja when he was asked, "Take benediction, whatever you like", he said, "Sir, what benediction I shall take? I have seen the benediction of my father. He was so powerful even the demigods trembled by his red eyes and You finished it within a second. So what is the value of this benediction? Kindly engage me in Your service." Then Prahlāda Mahārāja he did not ask anything for himself, but later on he asked Nṛsiṁha-deva, "Sir, my Lord, one request I can make. My father was great demon, he was against You, but still I pray that his liberation will be granted."
Guest: Very nice of him, very good of him.
Prabhupāda: (laughs)
Guest: To save his father.
Prabhupāda: So Nṛsiṁha-deva replied, "Don't be worried about your father. Not only your father, but your father's father, his father, up to 14 generations because a devotee like you, because you are born in this family, 14 generations they are also liberated." Best service. If your daughter can give best service to your family by becoming a devotee. She gives service to you, to your husband, to your husband's father, your father, that is the śāstric injunction.
Bali Mardana: It's their envious attitude. They are envious.
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not the question of envious. Because you are thinking that He is inconceivable, because you cannot say... But how can you say that another person cannot say? There are so many things I do not know. That does not mean that somebody else does not know. You may not know. Your experience is not mature. But how you can say, "Another person cannot have the experience"? So that is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedāhaṁ samatītāni, māṁ tu veda na kaścana: (BG 7.26) "I know everything, but nobody knows Me." There is the answer. So nobody knows Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. But Kṛṣṇa reveals Himself to the devotee. That is also said, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām (BG 10.10).
- teṣām evānukampārtham
- aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ
- nāśayāmy ātma-bhāvastho
- jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā
- (BG 10.11)
"Those who are devotees, to show them special favor, I remove the ignorance." So Māyāvādīs, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). They are Māyāvādīs. Māyā does not allow them to see the cause of all causes, Kṛṣṇa. But if Kṛṣṇa reveals Himself, who can check it? Otherwise He is not Brahman. Brahman means the greatest. Brahman means the greatest, and He is Para-brahman. There are greatest demigods like Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, but He's greater than them. He says, aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Brahmā and Śiva, they have come out from Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu. So Brahmā, Śiva may not know, but that does not mean Kṛṣṇa does not know. So we are receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. We are not receiving. Or we are receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa's representative, who knows Kṛṣṇa.
Yaśomatīnandana: Even Lord Brahmā, when he saw the innumerable Viṣṇu forms of the child Kṛṣṇa, then he himself said that "As far as I know, as far as I am concerned, I don't know anything about You."
Prabhupāda: No, he... Yes. That is the Brahmā's position, what to speak of others. Yasyāntaṁ na viduḥ surāsura-gaṇā devāya tasmai namaḥ. Yaṁ brahmā varuṇendra-rudra-marutaḥ stunvanti divyaiḥ stavaiḥ. Brahmā, Varuṇa, all demigods. Yaṁ brahmā varuṇendra-rudra. Rudra even, Śiva, Lord Śiva. Stunvanti divyaiḥ stavair vedaiḥ sāṅga-pada-kramopaniṣadair gāyanti yaṁ sāma-gāḥ, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). That Bhārati cited this verse. Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: The five gods?
Prabhupāda: No, no, this verse.
Yaśomatīnandana: Is that by Śaṅkarācārya, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is Vedic.
Prabhupāda: Simply they fight and loss of life and money, energy. War must be for the good. If there is some war, it must be for some good. But where is that goodness? The world remains the same; rather, it becomes more worst. Then why fight? But they will fight. Because both of them demons, they will fight. But not for any good result. War means... War is not bad. Just like disease. If somebody is diseased, then he becomes healthy. The whole polluted situation of the body becomes repaired. Just like when you get a boil or dysentery, all the poisons of the body, they become purged out. Then your health becomes nice. That is the law, nature's law. Similarly, war or famine or pestilence, they are meant for purging out all undesirable men. But the demonic principle is so strong that it is not becoming so. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this approach. The Americans have placed in their constitution, "In God we Trust." It should be done very scientifically and philosophically, what is God and what is that trust, not a vague idea. Vague ideas will not help. They will not be able to conquer over the atheistic world. Actually, if there is organized party who believe in God factually, then this demon class of men will always be vanquished. Yes. Just like there was war between the surāsura, demigods and the asuras. God, Viṣṇu, took side of the demigods and came out victorious. But if both of them are demons, why Viṣṇu will take side of anyone of them? "You fight and go to hell." That is going on.
Karandhara: So they say, "Well, we cannot see God." But they could not see the people in those past days either.
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot see the government, but when things are going nicely, you must accept, there is government. That is... When things are going on very nicely, regularly, the sun is rising regularly, the moon is rising regularly, the seasons are changing and the waves are flowing, everything, then you have to accept that there is government. And as we have got experience here in this material world... Government is impersonal, but that at the end there is a president. Similarly, the whole government, the complete government, may be impersonal in the beginning, but at the end there is a person, that Supreme Person, Bhagavān. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Yes. Paramātmā is representative of God. Just like the president has got so many representative governors, similarly, Paramātmā is the localized representative of God, and God is person, and the whole government is impersonal. This is the conception. When we say "government," you cannot localize that "Who is that person, government?" That is impersonal. But when we find governor, then localized persons. And then above them, all of them, when there is president, he is supreme person. This is our practical example. Similarly, nature is working impersonally, but there are officers. They are called demigods. And above them all there is the Supreme Lord. He is Bhagavān. And this idea wherefrom has come? The president, the governors, and the government. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). It has come from there. Because of the origin, the same thing is there.
Prabhupāda: This Subhash Chandra Bose. And he organized the INA, Indian National Army. So when this Indian National Army was organized and the Britishers... They were great politicians. They saw, "Now the army is going to national movement. We cannot be." Then they left. Because it was not possible. They were maintaining British Empire with Indian money, Indian men. You see? They did not conquer by their British soldiers all round the Far East, Burma and the Mesopotamia, and the Egypt. That was Indian army, the Sikh soldiers and the Gurkha soldiers, and Indian money. On the pretext that "For Indian protection, we are maintaining this army." Actually, they were expanding their empire. Africa, Burma. And when they saw that "India is lost," voluntarily they liquidated all others. Went back... Back to home, back to Godhead. (devotees laugh) So in politics this is nonsense, non-violence. It is nonsense, cowardism. In politics in sweet words you cannot get. There must be fight, arms. That is army. "If you don't agree, then fist." That is politics. There must be violence. Otherwise you cannot control. When there is educated good men, then you can argue. But when people are ruffians, there is no question of good... Argumentum vaculum, I told you the other day... (break) ...in the beginning of creation, the fight between the demons and the demigods, devāsura-yuddha. That is always there. In the European history, without revolution, no order changes. Even the Russian Revolution was there. French revolution was there.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is material life. We are rounding sometimes this way, sometimes that way, and we are thinking "new." (devotees laugh) Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona (CC Madhya 19.151). In this way you are wandering all over the universe. Find out something new. But there is nothing new. Everything is old. (break) ...a living entity is offered change of the body. You see? When he becomes fatigued of this life, "It's so troublesome"—old men generally think like that. So he has to change another, another new body, child. Since born he is taken care, he thinks "Now, I have got so comfortable life." And again becomes old, disgusted, so he cannot live disgusting, therefore Kṛṣṇa is so kind: "All right, change body again." Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Chewing the chewed. The business is the same, but changing body gives some relief. Just like these men, the business is they're wasting time by changing, wasting time at home, come to the golf club. That's all. The business is the same—wasting time, either here or there. Kṛṣṇa is giving so much facilities. Sometimes, "All right, you become tree." "All right, some, become a serpent," "All right, you become a demigod," "All right, you become a human being," "All right, you become king," "You become a cobbler," "You go to the heavenly planets," "Go to the hellish planets." Varieties is there. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that He's changing varieties, atmosphere of life. But he's packed up in this material world. That freedom... He's asking for freedom, but he does not know the freedom is the shelter of Kṛṣṇa. That he'll not accept.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if... Since Kṛṣṇa is the power that gives the demigods the ability to render everything, then why is it recommended in the Nectar of Devotion that a Vaiṣṇava should worship Gaṇapati?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa worship, everyone. Just like we worship also ordinary man if it gives us facility to worship Kṛṣṇa. We go to somebody and worship him, flatter him, because he will give some money, and it will be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. The man is not worshipable, but he will help us to worship Kṛṣṇa. Thereby he will be helped and we will be also helped, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied that "My devotee has brought some money from this rascal. All right." That is... (laughter) So Gaṇapati is also devotee. So Gaṇapati, it is not required, but sometimes we do. Just like gopīs, they worshiped Goddess Durgā, Kātyāyanī. They did not require, but the social system is that. But they asked that Mother Kātyāyanī, give us the opportunity to have Kṛṣṇa as our husband." The aim is Kṛṣṇa. Generally, they go to worship Devī Durgā for asking material benefit. Dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi yaśo dehi, the things which we want in material... But the gopīs, they do not go for any material things. For Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, we can go to any demigod. Why Gaṇapati? Everyone. But our prayer should be, "Please give us Kṛṣṇa." Then it is correct.
Yaśodānandana: To build the temple for Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Whatever possible facility is available from any person, we beg for it for Kṛṣṇa's service, not for our personal benefit. (break) ...they forget Kṛṣṇa. They forget Kṛṣṇa. When they go to worship some other demigod, they forget Kṛṣṇa, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.20), because they have got so strong material desires that they forget Kṛṣṇa. That is harmful. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣām (BG 7.23). They get some benefit out of the demigod, but that will not stay. Alpavat, er, antavat. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣām. But if you take Kṛṣṇa, then it is not antavat, it will go on increasing. If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it will never end. It will increase. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam, increasing. The ocean does not increase, but Kṛṣṇa consciousness is such a great ocean that it increases only. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam.
Prabhupāda: Why shall I take from Kṛṣṇa? You should give.
Candanācārya: No, I mean. Instead of praying to demigods to give me something, saying, "Whatever you decide Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. No. A devotee never prays to Kṛṣṇa. They have to undergo so much trouble; still they never pray to Kṛṣṇa. They know that "Kṛṣṇa will give us ultimately protection. Let us do our duty." Tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇaḥ (SB 10.14.8). When a devotee is in difficulty, he is not disturbed. He thinks, It is Kṛṣṇa's wish that I should suffer like like this. It is not suffering; it is my pleasure." Just like when a patient is undergoing surgical operation, there is pain, but he knows, "It is better for me." Therefore agrees, "Yes sir. You go on with your knife." So when you are surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa says that "I shall give you protection," so even in our distressed condition we must know that we are being protected by Kṛṣṇa. We should not be disturbed. Because we create so-called distress and happiness. Actually this world is distress. Here the so-called happiness is also distress. So why a devotee should be disturbed by distressed condition? Harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21).
Bali Mardana: What is exactly the position of the Vasus?
Prabhupāda: Vasus, they are demigods. Before appearance of Kṛṣṇa, some of the exalted demigods were ordered to come and arrange for His arrival. So Uddhava arrived, and many others arrived. They were coming from heavenly planets.
Bali Mardana: Bhīṣmadeva was also one of the Vasus previously.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Aṣṭa-vasu.
Bali Mardana: In Bhīṣmadeva's instructions, while he was dying, one of the questions that he was asked is "Which is more powerful, action or destiny, karma?" He replied that they are both very powerful, but of the two, action was more powerful.
Prabhupāda: Time. Reaction. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... What is that bird? (tropical—sounding bird in background) Bird, or something else?
Bali Mardana: Bird.
Prabhupāda: That sound? (break) ...our philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness if they actually want to be happy. This is a fact. Not sentimentally, but scientifically, philosophically. Let them... Let the biggest scientists, biggest philosopher, come and understand. (break) ...gone away, but nobody saw.
Prabhupāda: So I have seen this instrument. Destiny is very strong. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Therefore śāstra says that you try for that thing which was not possible in many other lives. In each life everyone gets father, mother, son, and the father's duty to son, son, that is going on. When you take birth as demigod-Indra, Candra, Varuṇa—or as human being or as animal the care-taking business is there. Even the small ant during rainy season, when there is so much flood, they take the eggs on the head—you have seen the red ant?—and finding out some place. The care-taking is there. Even the birds, a sparrow. So when their, the season for laying down eggs, they bring some straws, and keep like that to make a nest for taking care of the eggs. So this taking care by the father and mother, beginning from the ant up to the Indra, Candra devas, that is there.
Prabhupāda: Eh? And he became God. By worshiping Kālī. Just see how much Māyāvādī he is. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ: (BG 7.20) "Anyone who is worshiping other demigods, his intelligence is lost." Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ. And this man says that worshiping a demigod, goddess Kālī, he became God. Just see. How much great Māyāvādī he is! Where is the śāstra, where is in the śāstra, Vedic śāstra, that one becomes God by worshiping goddess Kālī?
Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit): Brahma-vid brahma eva bhavati.
Prabhupāda: Is there any evidence? There may...
Dr. Patel: Brahma-vid brahma eva bhavati.
Prabhupāda: That is all right. That is another thing. Just like I gave the example: if you associate with fire, you also become fire. That is another thing, brahma-vid. But here is no question of brahma-vid. Ignorance. Ignorance. Because brahma-vid, the Brahman, Supreme Brahman, says that "Those who are worshiper of demigods, they have lost their intelligence." So how he becomes...? A man who has lost his intelligence, how he can become brahma-vid? Brahma-vid is so easy thing? It is possible for a man who has lost his intelligence and he becomes brahma-vid?
Prabhupāda: Simply he's to carry the order. He's not to make orders. That is devotee. Everyone, in the material world, they worship demigods—why? Because they can order, "Please give me this. Please give me that." Rūpaṁ dehi, bhāryāṁ dehi, yaśo dehi, this dehi, this dehi, dehi... Therefore they go to demigods. But to Kṛṣṇa he cannot demand. And therefore they do not go; they do not become Vaiṣṇavas. You see? You'll see, all the devotees of Lord Śiva, they demanded something. "My dear Lord Śiva, you are so nice. Please give me this." "What do you want?" "Now, I shall touch anyone's head and head will be cut off." "All right, that's all." These things you cannot get from Kṛṣṇa. These things you cannot get from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore people do not go to Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (3): Then it is all right. So I'm all right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...to go and worship any other demigod. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). They are not going to worship. They can offer respect to the demigods, but that is not they're going to worship. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam.
Dr. Patel: Śaraṇaṁ vraja.
Prabhupāda: We are simply...
Dr. Patel: We say the same thing in our...
Prabhupāda: Mām ekam. Only Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: So āśrama varṇāśrama dharmo... Cārvāka says.
Prabhupāda: Somebody is bigger than Kṛṣṇa. Then what you'll do?
Dr. Patel: They're going, "All right, you can talk anything nonsense." It is nonsense, "You are a fool and a rascal, and a rogue and what you are calling so many words." He is that. And they believe him, that's all.
Prabhupāda: He yesterday talked like that.
Mr. Sar: No, He cannot. He's the Lord of māyā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But these Māyāvādīs says that "Kṛṣṇa is also, when He comes, He comes under the influence of māyā." This is called Māyāvāda. (break) ...these bhūta, material, material adhibhūtas. And adhiyajña. Adhiyajña is Paramātmā. And adhibhuta, material. And adhidaiva...
Dr. Patel: Is the other demigods.
Prabhupāda: Devas, yes.
Dr. Patel: All the devas of the ten indriyas.
Mr. Sar: He's asking already, kiṁ tad brahma kim...
Prabhupāda: That is... These are the questions. So this will be answered.
Prabhupāda: This is simplest method. In whatever condition of life you may remain, you simply remember Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That's all.
Mr. Sar: Ananya-cetāḥ satataṁ yo māṁ smarati nityaśaḥ... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...demigods. That is not possible.
Mr. Sar: Mām upetya punar janma... (BG 8.15). (break)
Prabhupāda: ...simply distributing what Kṛṣṇa says. That's all. I am a fool number one also, like others.
Dr. Patel: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: No, no, no, no, no.
Prabhupāda: But my only ambition is that I don't speak anything else beyond Kṛṣṇa's speaking. That's all.
Prabhupāda: So by working with the body, we create another creation.
Dr. Patel: Bhūta-bhāvodbhava...
Prabhupāda: Just like now I am a human being. Next life I may be a demigod, I may be a dog. That I create. That is sarga.
Dr. Patel: That is karma.
Chandobhai: That is his karma. That is his karma.
Dr. Patel: What is karma?
Prabhupāda: Karma, anyone can understand. As you... Fruitive activities. You do something and enjoy the good or bad result. That is karma. You do something, either good or bad. So the result you'll have to suffer or enjoy.
Prabhupāda: That is stated that pitṛṇām. No, what is that verse? Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛnam-pitṛṇām (SB 11.5.41). We are... Just like we are indebted to our forefathers, family, similarly we are indebted to devas, the demigods. Just like the sun is supplying light. So we are indebted. Deva, ṛṣi, to the great, big, big, saintly ṛṣis. They have given us the śāstras. Devarṣi, devarṣi bhūtā... Bhūtā, ordinary living entities. Just like you are taking milk from the cows. And another, horse, is giving me service. So devarṣi-bhūtā apta, relatives. We take so much help from relatives. Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛnam, ordinary human beings. Pitṛṇām. And the pitṛs. So we are debted to so many. If you want to clear up the debts, it will take millions of births. (laughter) So devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛnam-pitṛṇāṁ nayaṁ kiṅkara na ṛni ca rājan (SB 11.5.41). This man is neither servant nor indebted. Who? Sarvātmanā yaḥ śaraṇaṁ mukundam. One who has taken... That Kṛṣṇa says, that "You just surrender unto Me. I will protect you." So if he does not do anything else... One may think that he is being entangled in sinful activities because he does not do other duties. But Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). So one who has taken shelter, full shelter unto Kṛṣṇa, he doesn't require to do any so-called social, political and other duties. He doesn't require.
Dr. Patel:
- na me viduḥ sura-ganaḥ
- prabhavaṁ na maharṣayaḥ
- aham ādir hi devānāṁ
- maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ
- (Bg 10.2)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Even the... Na me viduḥ sura-gaṇāḥ. Sura-gaṇāḥ means demigods, and what to speak of the rascals? How the rascals, simply by little educational qualification, can understand Kṛṣṇa?
Dr. Patel: Prabhavaṁ, the original. Prabhavaṁ.
Prabhupāda: No. Prabhavaṁ means influence, influence, prabhava.
Dr. Patel: Aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Now, just try to understand this. Na me viduḥ sura-gaṇāḥ (Bg 10.2). (Hindi) ...demigods, big, big demigods, they cannot understand Him. How the rascals with little education can understand? This is the meaning. Na me viduḥ sura-gaṇāḥ prabhavaṁ (Bg 10.2). How much influence... The maharṣayaḥ, big, big saintly ṛṣis also, they cannot understand. Aham ādir hi devānām. Devānām means the first devas: the Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. So Viṣṇu is He Himself. Even Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, they do not know. Devānām.
Dr. Patel:
- ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
- mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
- iti matvā bhajante māṁ
- budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ
- (BG 10.8)
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the actually essence of Bhagavad-gītā. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: "I am the origin of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo and mattaḥ sarvam. Sarvam means including Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Sarvam. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā. One who understands this. Bhajante. So just... The bhajana is for whom? Iti matvā. When one understands that Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything, even the original demigods, Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara, when one understands perfectly this thing, then his bhajana is perfect.
Dr. Patel: Budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ.
Prabhupāda: Bhāva, bhāva. Bhāva means love, feelings, feelings of love, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so great."
Dr. Patel: Mac-cittā mad-gata-prāṇāḥ.
Prabhupāda: And that is being described.
Prabhupāda: Deva-deva. "There are many demigods, but You are also..."
Dr. Patel: Deva of the devas.
Prabhupāda: Ah. "You are the supreme of all of them, deva-deva. You are worshiped by the devas."
Dr. Patel:
- vaktum arhasy aśeṣeṇa
- divyā hy ātma-vibhūtayaḥ
- yābhir vibhūtibhir lokān
- imāṁs tvaṁ vyāpya tiṣṭhasi
Prabhupāda: Now, this is to be understood, how "You are all-pervading by Your influence, by Your power." That means "You are always there." "You" person is there. Just like a big man, big businessman, is sitting in his room, but he is all-pervading, all-pervading.
Dr. Patel: Arjuna uvāca. These boys understand this, all of them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I will explain.
Dr. Patel: Now Arjuna says, paśyāmi devāṁs tava deva dehe sarvāṁs tathā bhūta-viśeṣa...
Prabhupāda: Devāṁs, devāṁs, tava deva dehe means "devas, the demigods, they are part and parcel of Your virāṭa-rupa." They are not independent. Just like this finger is part of my this whole body, similarly, all these devas, these demigods... That is explained previously. Ye 'py anya-devatā bhaktā yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ, te 'pi mām eva. If you give something to my finger, that is to be given to my body, but that is avidhi-pūrvakam. The thing's to be given to the mouth, not in the hand. But their logic is, because everything is the same, why not here? That is Māyāvāda.
Girirāja: (reads synonyms Bg. 11.6 up to:) "adṛṣṭa—that you have not heard or seen;"
Prabhupāda: Yes. Even which Arjuna did not hear before, that was also shown. What was heard by him formerly, that was also shown and unheard of, unseen, that was also.
Girirāja: (reads rest of synonyms) "Translation: O best of the Bhāratas, see here the different manifestations of Ādityas, Rudras and all the demigods. Behold the many things which no one has ever seen or heard before."
Dr. Patel:
- ihaikasthaṁ jagat kṛtsnaṁ
- paśyādya sa-carācaram
- mama dehe guḍākeṣa
- yac cānyad draṣṭum icchasi
- (BG 11.7)
Prabhupāda: So this is, this is... You can... Mama deha. So the so-called incarnations of God, they should show in their body all these things. They must be accepted by the śāstra that he is avatāra. Otherwise, why so cheap avatāra, we shall accept?
Girirāja: (reads synonyms)
Prabhupāda: (interrupting) Altogether.
Prabhupāda: Arms, He is exhibiting many. The same formula. Eko bahu syām. (indistinct) Then?
Girirāja: (Continues reading synonyms to:) "bahu-daṁṣṭrā-..."
Prabhupāda: "Many bellies" means a personal form. Daṁṣṭrā karālām.
Girirāja: (finishes synonyms) "Translation: O mighty-armed one, all the planets with their demigods are disturbed at seeing Your many faces, eyes, arms, bellies and legs, and Your terrible teeth, and as they are disturbed, so am I."
Prabhupāda: Kāla-rūpa, kāla-rūpa. This is called kāla-rūpa. Then? Yes.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Let me explain this. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja was offered benediction, "Now you take benediction." So he said that "Where is benediction? I have seen my father was so powerful materially that even the demigods, they were frightened. So even if I get certain material successes, but you can finish it within a second. So why shall I take all these benedictions? Please engage me as the servant of your servant. That is my success."
Dr. Patel: Perpetual engagement in the service of...
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is vaiṣṇava-vicāra.
Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) It means they must.
Prabhupāda: Now, instead of accepting the original, real thing, why people accept imitation? What is the reason?
Dr. Patel: Because they get the earthly benefit much quicker by worshiping the lower gods. That is why...
Prabhupāda: No, no, not lower gods. Lower god, I am not speaking. Imitation god. Lower god, demigod, they are lower. That is already... I mean to say somebody says that "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, same Rāma." Why he is accepted like that, giving up the original Rāma and Kṛṣṇa? What is the reason?
Dr. Patel: Guru-bhakti.
Prabhupāda: What is that guru-bhakti? Guru never says that "I am Rāma-Kṛṣṇa, I am..." That is rascaldom. If any guru says that, then he is not guru.
Dr. Patel: He is rascal guru.
Prabhupāda: He is a rascal, not guru. Rascal cannot be guru. You cannot add this. Then they are the same, daridra-nārāyaṇa. Nārāyaṇa cannot be daridra; daridra cannot be Nārāyaṇa. Similarly, rascal cannot be guru, and guru is not rascal. So this is a question. I am inquiring from you. Why people accept this imitation?
Prabhupāda: Now, he is beginning from the three deities of creation: Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara.
Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "Arjuna said: My dear Lord Kṛṣṇa, I see assembled together in Your body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see Brahmā sitting on the lotus flower as well as Lord Śiva and many sages and divine serpents."
Dr. Patel: Shall I go further, sir?
Prabhupāda: So you are understanding all this? If you have got any question, you can ask. All right, go on.
Dr. Patel: (reads next verse Bg. 11.16, in Sanskrit)
Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "aneka-many..." (pause)
Prabhupāda: "Because one, there is no aneka," that is nonsense. In one, aneka, that is philosophy.
Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: All the demigods are surrendering and entering into You. They are very much afraid, and with folded hands they are singing the Vedic hymns."
Prabhupāda: When the demigods... They have to offer prayers to the Lord, instead of... How they can be worshiped on the equal level of God? How can they be worshiped on the...? That is forbidden. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yas tu nārāyaṇaṁ deva. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (some people come) Yas tu nārāyaṇaṁ devaṁ brahma-rudrādi-daivataiḥ, samatvena vikṣeta sa pāṣāṇḍī bhaved dhruvam (CC Madhya 18.116). Nārāyaṇam devam, the Supreme Personality of God Nārāyaṇa, if one makes Him on the equal position with such big, big demigods like Brahmā, Rudra, so immediately he becomes a pāṣāṇḍī. And now they are comparing with the daridra. Just see.
Dr. Patel: Now again you are going that way. Shall I read on?
Prabhupāda: No, no, this is a fact, you must understand. You do not know. You must know it. You must know it. Nārāyaṇa cannot be compared with Brahmā, Rudra, and these rascals have compared Him with daridra. Just see, how much rascal they are.
Prabhupāda: Now he is describing who are offering prayers. All the big, big demigods, surāsaṅgha, they are respectfully offering. And they cannot be equal. The Māyāvādī says, "All the demigods, you chant, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or Kālī Kṛṣṇa or Durgā Kṛṣṇa, this is all the same."
Dr. Patel: Or daridra-nārāyaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Or daridra-nārāyaṇa, that is the same.
Girirāja: (reads synonyms to:) "viṣve—the Visvadevas..." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...clearly described, what is God, what is the distinction between God and other demigods, living entity. Everything is clearly explained. So you can talk all nonsense without Bhagavad-gītā. That is another chapter. But if you claim that "We read Bhagavad-gītā," you cannot say like that. That is our propaganda. If you actually have read Bhagavad-gītā, then you cannot say all this nonsense. (break)
Dr. Patel: ...common features of Kṛṣṇa are common to all paramparās. It can't be different from one another.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Paramparā. He says, "As soon as this paramparā was lost, the Bhagavad-gītā was lost." Naṣṭaḥ, it is said, naṣṭaḥ. "Therefore I am taking you again as paramparā." You see?
Girirāja: They want to be artificially the uttama adhikārī, to see everyone as nice.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, everyone as nice, except himself. Uttama adhikārī vision, that everyone is nice. Then the preacher is also nice. Why you find out fault with the preacher? So imitation uttama adhikārī will not help.
Girirāja: (break) "...those who are demoniac or atheistic by nature can hardly assimilate any good instruction, however authorized it may be. That is the difference between a demigod and a demon." (break)
Prabhupāda: Therefore, at the present moment, bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānām tayāpahṛta-cetasām (BG 2.44). Demons, they are too much attached to material enjoyment, bhoga and aiśvarya. So they cannot take to it. Therefore our general principle is to perform saṅkīrtana, not to talk philosophy. When one is interested, then he can talk philosophy. Otherwise this talk should be amongst inner circles, with the students and the teacher, those who are submissive. Otherwise it should be avoided. It will create misunderstanding.
Satsvarūpa: What about programs at schools and colleges?
Prabhupāda: Because they are innocent. The children, they are innocent. So if possible, give them some enlightenment, kṛpā, to become merciful upon them. So far children are concerned, they hear, they try to learn. Just like in Dallas, whatever we say, they accept. They do not protest. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Demons are known as sura-dviṣām, sura-dviṣām, those who are envious of the demigods, sura-dvisa. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). This word is used in the Bhāgavata: "just to cheat the demons," sammohāya sura-dviṣām. (break) That is the instruction of Nārada. You see? Then?
Girirāja: "Within the prison, shackled in iron chains, Vasudeva and Devakī gave birth to a male child year after year. Kaṁsa, thinking each of the babies to be the incarnation of Viṣṇu, killed them one after another."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He killed his brother. He was merciful upon the father only, kept him in the prison. Otherwise he killed the whole family—brother, brother's son and everyone. (break) ...present kings, such incidences are very many in the history, killing everyone. There is another story that Pana, Pana?
Yaśomatīnandana: Panavada.(?)
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes.
Satsvarūpa: If the son was Vyāsadeva...
Prabhupāda: He could beget a child like Vyāsadeva. (break)
Girirāja: (reading from Kṛṣṇa Book) "Chapter Two. Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Kṛṣṇa in the Womb. King Kaṁsa not only occupied the kingdoms of the Yadu, Bhoja and Andhaka dynasties and the kingdom of Śūrasena..." (break)
Prabhupāda: So the only expense... (break) ...intention of Kṛṣṇa.
Girirāja: Kṛṣṇa and yog...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...he says, this mantra, nāyam ātmā bala-hīnā na labhya, he says, "Unless you very, become very stout and strong, there is no question of advancement in spiritual life. Therefore we should first of all eat meat and become very strong, and then we'll be spiritual realized."
Yaśomatīnandana: Who says that?
Prabhupāda: Vivekananda. (break) ...physical strength.
Prabhupāda: That religiosity also different kinds: rajasic, tamasic, and sattvic, according to one's nature. The sattvic, they worship Viṣṇu. The rajasic, they worship the demigods. And the tamasic, they worship bhūta, preta, piśāca...
Devotee: Demons.
Prabhupāda: Demons. You'll see the Mohammedans, they worship the tomb. And Christian also, they worship the tomb. They offer wreath on the tomb. So tamasic. What is there in the tomb? But because they're tamasic, they're worshiping like that. And this, this so-called incarnation worship is also tamasic. By tamasic, in darkness they accept somebody as incarnation, and they worship. This is tamasic.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: I will talk. Why he is described in the śāstra as rākṣasa? And not only that... I do not know whether here. In Delhi have seen Rāma-līlā, the effigy of Rāvaṇa is beaten with shoes sometimes. But actually he was a great devotee of Lord Śiva. Everyone knows. And he was so big devotee that Lord Śiva gave him all benedictions, "Whatever you want." So why this Rāvaṇa is described in the śāstra as rākṣasa? Why he is not described as a saintly person? He was a brāhmaṇa by birth. He was born of a brāhmaṇa father, and he was great student of Vedas. Materially he was very opulent so that he could control even the demigods. He was so powerful. Still, with all this qualification, why he is described as rākṣasa? You answer this point.
Indian man (2): Because he had some fight with... So kāma, krodha, moha, lobha, he had that also... (break)
Prabhupāda: He is not a devotee of the Lord. So anyone... That is our criterion. Anyone who is not a devotee, whatever he may be... He may be very, very big or so-called saintly, but according to the description of the śāstras, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). We shall calculate in that way. As soon as we...
Prabhupāda: Lord Śiva is Lord Śiva. He is very powerful demigod. He can give. He has got the power. But in spite of being favored by Lord Śiva, in spite of his becoming the great devotee of Lord Śiva, why he is described as rākṣasa? That is the point. So therefore if I say Rāvaṇa a rākṣasa, according to the śāstra, another devotee may be angry. So what can I do? It is stated in the śāstra, rākṣasa. Similarly, in the śāstra it is stated that na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ: "If one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa he is duṣkṛtina, the most sinful, mūḍhā, rascal, naradhāma, lowest of the mankind, māyayā apahṛta-jñāna." These things are there. But if we quote the śāstra, that "This man has not surrendered to the Supreme Lord; therefore he is a rascal," then what is wrong with us? It may be very strong words, but it is stated in the śāstra. Just like about Rāvaṇa, it is stated that he is a rākṣasa. So it may be very insulting and strong words, but this is the statement of the śāstra. And if one quotes from the śāstra, what is wrong on his part? Suppose in the court a big man has done something criminal, and the judgement is that he should be punished.
Prabhupāda: ...sometimes dog attacks the master. Not only dog, animals. (break) ...the bitterest enemies of the demons, always. That is the position. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ. So demigods, they are devotees of Viṣṇu, and they are always enemies unto the demons. (break) ...especially in the heart of the saintly person, to kill the saintly person. So Kṛṣṇa also will be killed. Because Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart, therefore everyone is Kṛṣṇa. The same conclusion.
Mahāṁsa: That does not show any logic, because He is in everybody's heart, how can anyone be Kṛṣṇa? (break)
Prabhupāda: He is in the heart of a dog also. Then dog is also Kṛṣṇa. So why one should go to the temple? He can worship his dog at home. If this logic is all right. (break) ...the verdict of the Rāmakrishna mission, "You can worship whatever you like. That is God." And therefore they have manufactured this word, daridra-nārāyaṇa. (break) Jāta-karma-saṁskāra, saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Saṁskāra, reformatory method, begins before the birth. Before the birth, when the father and mother have sex, that is called garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. That is also another ceremony. It is not a hidden fact.
Indian Man (1): Not self only.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that rascaldom is going on. And our society is protesting. Therefore we are enemy of everyone. Because we are protesting against this. "You cannot do this. You cannot do this." As soon as say, "Oh, why you are decrying? He is also incarnation of God." What kinds of God? A rascal, we shall accept incarnation of God? You see? I am not so fool. Kṛṣṇa says that... What is that? Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajanti anya-devatāḥ: (BG 7.20) "A person who is lost of his intelligence, he worships demigods." And a person worshiping a demigod, he becomes God. Just see. He's a nonsense, naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ, because he is worshiping demigod, and by worshiping demigod he became God. Where is this in the śāstra? This rascaldom is going on. First of all, anyone who worships a demigod, he is a rascal. And it is advertised "By worshiping such and such demigod, a rascal has become God." And we have to accept that. We are not so foolish. First of all, he is a rascal, he has no knowledge. And one who has no knowledge and rascal, and he has become God. We have to accept that.
Indian Man (1): When the people do not find any difference between the God and demigod...
Prabhupāda: Why? That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. If you do not find any difference between me and my disciple, then you are foolish man. If you say, if you say...
Indian Man (1): In the beginning everybody is foolish. We are born foolish.
Prabhupāda: Well, born foolish. That... He has to become intelligent. But when he talks foolishly, he remains foolish.
Indian Man (1): Well, so far he is not enlightened.
Prabhupāda: If he talks foolishly, that means he is still foolish. He has not attained any knowledge.
Indian Man (6): But after getting the knowledge, then knowledge means when we completely know the Supreme Personality is Lord Kṛṣṇa, then he is all right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just now only. He is disclosing. He has given... (break) ...bahūni me janmāny atītāni tava cārjuna. Same thing. "I had many, many births before." That is confirmed here.
Girirāja: "Just as demigods are always protected by Lord Viṣṇu, so the devotees of your child will always be protected by Nārāyaṇa." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...accept that process. (break) ...cation. (break) Without any advertisement, without any..., how one can stop this?
Indian Man (2): It is not possible. (break)
Girirāja: "The child is very clever. After breaking the pot He has left the place fearing punishment. After she sought all over she found a big wooden grinding mortar kept upside down, and she found her son sitting on it. He was taking butter which was hanging from the ceiling on a swing and was feeding it to the monkeys." (continues reading from Kṛṣṇa Book; rest of tape is unintelligible) (end)
Prabhupāda: ...Nārada, but still they are sinful. Such a great personality like Nārada, they had seen, but still they are sinful. Go on.
Girirāja: "As such, the great sage Nārada considered that because the demigods Nalakūvara and Maṇigrīva were so infatuated by false prestige, they should be put in a condition of life devoid of opulence." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...bench, standing. The small children, they are punished, "Stand up on the bench." It is like that.
Dr. Patel: All vegetables are in tamas, in tamas...
Prabhupāda: No. Some of them, fruitful, those trees for supplying nice fruits, nice flowers, they are in the goodness. Everywhere the three qualities are working.
Yaśomatīnandana: There may be dog in the mode of goodness?
Prabhupāda: No, dog is an animal. He is in the ignorance. But the cow is in goodness. Sattva-raja-tamo.
Prabhupāda: So actually, by his going round, he increased his practice. (Indians talking Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (break) ...between demigod. Demigods are also expansion, but that is separated expansion, separated expansion, vibhinnāṁśa. In the Varāha-Purāṇa it is said, vibhinnāṁśa. And here, svāṁśa, personal expansion. (break)
Indian Man (3): I have worked with men of international fame like Colonel De Gaulle, Colonel Acton, Colonel Knowles, but worldwide... (break)
Prabhupāda: Because you do not accept the soul, medical science.
Dr. Patel: Soul is already everywhere. But what do you say? Everywhere means only on the earth, not away from the earth, and then outer space. You want to say... Do you mean outer space also?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Sarvaga. Sarvaga means...
Dr. Patel: But these boys have to be kept in those living bags, with saturation of oxygen, who have been to the moon. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...the statement in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catur: "Unless one is very, very extraordinarily intelligent, he cannot be a devotee of Kṛṣṇa." Svalpa-puṇya-vatāṁ rājan viśvāso naiva jāyate.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That was the purpose. It was not that Brahmā was degraded, but Kṛṣṇa is merciful upon Brahmā and Indra. Hm. Go on.
Girirāja: "Lord Viṣṇu, Brahmā also realized, was the reservoir of all truth, knowledge and bliss. He is the combination of three transcendental features, namely eternity, knowledge and bliss. He is the object of worship by the followers of the Upaniṣads. Brahmā realized that all the different forms of cows, boys and calves transformed into Viṣṇu forms were not transformed by a mysticism of the type that a yogi or demigod can display by specific powers invested in him. The cows, calves and boys transformed into viṣṇu-mūrtis, or Viṣṇu forms, were not displays of viṣṇu-māyā, or Viṣṇu energy, but were Viṣṇu Himself. The respective qualifications of Viṣṇu and viṣṇu-māyā are just like fire and heat. In the heat there is..." (break)
Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) (break) So you stop. You stop only.
Prabhupāda: Give up, give up the result.
Prabhupāda:
- yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā
- sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ
- harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā
- mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ
- (SB 5.18.12)
yasya—anyone; asti—one, anyone who has; bhagavati—in the Supreme Personality of Godhead; akiñcanā-bhakti—unalloyed devotion, faith; sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ—with all the good qualities of the demigods, he is bestowed upon.
Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ: If one is not a devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. He cannot possess any good qualification. Why? Mano-rathena. He is simply hovering on the mental plane. Therefore mind's business is to accept and reject. There cannot be any permanent thing. So one has to transcend above the plane of mind and fixed up in the spiritual platform. Then he can have all the good qualities.
Dr. Patel: Janma jāyate śūdraḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Especially, especially that Andhra government is Communist government.
Indian man (3): "And by so doing, one pleases Lord Viṣṇu and all the demigods. The pilgrims take bath, worship the Deity and give in charity. They are also recommended to fast one day." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...that after attaining human form of body he is not degraded.
Dr. Patel: That is wrong.
Prabhupāda: It is wrong.
Dr. Patel: Kathopaniṣad says that (Sanskrit). People according to their...
Prabhupāda: Yes, karma.
Dr. Patel: ...knowledge and according to their karma, even they become these trees.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): "Vidyadhara himself says that even though he was a demigod, he was condemned to become a serpent. But because he was touched by the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, he immediately came to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He admitted, however, that in his previous life he was actually sinful." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...observing Śiva-rātri, Nanda Mahārāja and all the cowherds men, they increased their attachment for Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted.
Pancadravida: "After this incident, on a very pleasant night both Kṛṣṇa and His elder brother Balarāma, who are inconceivably powerful, went into the forest of Vṛndāvana." (break)
Prabhupāda: "Dressing is artificial. It is not required. Yes. This naked body is very nice." (break) No, you don't... You cannot be naga-bābā. That is not good. (break) If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, all these rascaldom becomes charming. When one is Kṛṣṇa conscious these things does not appeal.
Prabhupāda: Brahmaloka. No highest Brahmaloka, where Lord Brahmā lives.
Yaduvara: "There was beating of drums, and being inspired by godly feelings, the residents of Gandharvaloka began to play on their tamburās to please the Lord. Once when he was..." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...what is God. Such innocent. You see? They thought, "Might be some demigod." That's all.
Yaduvara;: "O Nanda Mahārāja, we are now in great doubt. Your son Kṛṣṇa must be one of the demigods." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Yaduvara: "And he saved all honest men from the hands of the dishonest." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...Vṛndāvana inhabitants, they are always anxious how to save the cows, always. They are connected with cows.
Yogeśvara: "It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord over the material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature."
Prabhupāda: So this is our... because we are developing a different consciousness... Different... Consciousness is one, but it is being colored under different circumstances. And therefore we have to accept a similar type of body. So if our consciousness is cleansed, then we do not undergo the circumstantial changes by different species of life. That is required. In the human form of life we can do that, not to associate with the modes of material nature, but associate with God. That we can do. And if we associate with God, then we become liberated from the clutches of māyā. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. And our real business is how to get out of the clutches of māyā.
Yogeśvara: May we have one more picture, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. What are the history of these buildings?
Bhagavān: These were temples here, demigod temples.
Prabhupāda: This style of building, arch, is seen in New Delhi also, constructed by the Moguls. This was also a temple?
Bhagavān: No. This was an arena where they used to watch wrestling, fighting.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...devotees, they do not want any opulence of this material world. They are, what is called, pessimistic. They do not give any value to the opulence of this material world. And it is very good philosophy. But fools and rascals, they are attracted. Now, these buildings were constructed, very highly intellectual men undoubtedly, but they enjoyed, say, for hundred years. That's all.
Prabhupāda: ...oba. Mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām. Adānta-gobhir viśatām... (aside:) Not too near. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām, getting life after life and enjoying sense: the same eating, the same sleeping, the same sexual intercourse, and same defense, either as dog or as man or as bird or beast. This is called punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). These four things are available, either you become a dog or a god. Not God, these demigods. In the material world, everyone is given the facilities for eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse and defense. Now, if some dangers come, so we may be victims, but a bird immediately goes. He has better defense. Is it not? If some dangers come immediately... Suppose all of a sudden a motorcar comes and kills us. We cannot do anything, but the bird, small bird, "Hut!" He can do that. Is it not? So his defensive measure is better than us. Similarly, I want to have sex. I have to arrange for that, find out some... But the female bird is always around him, at any time. This sparrow, the pigeon. You have seen it? Immediately ready for sex life. And eating? Oh, there is some fruit. Immediately he can eat. And sleeping? That is also very comfortable. So these facilities, don't think that it is available on this skyscraper building.
Nitāi:
- na me viduḥ sura-gaṇāḥ
- prabhavaṁ na maharṣayaḥ
- aham ādir hi devānāṁ
- maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ
- (Bg 10.2)
"Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin for in every respect I am the source of the demigods and the sages."
Prof. Regamay: Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm still concerned with two of the incarnation which have... Because for me this is the doctrine of personalism and personal highest form of God. Now, among two of the incarnations, there is Kapila and Buddha. And Kapila is practically, finally, the classical Sāṅkhya-ist atheist. How could it be?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is imitation Kapila, and there is... Original Kapila is Devahūti, son of Devahūti, Kapila.
Prabhupāda: That he does not know. He is a fool. He does not know what is a good result. He will change again. He is a rascal. He is putting himself in this condition; again he'll desire another condition. That is the change of body. That is his wanting. Sometimes he's taking the body of a dog, sometimes he is taking the body of a demigod. Bhramatam upary adhaḥ (1.5.18). Down, just like, what is that? Merry-go-round.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Ferris wheel, ferris wheel goes up and down.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes "I am so up," and again come down. This is going on. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān. Therefore, in this way, going round, one who is very, very fortunate, he, guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151), he comes to the devotional life by the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa. This is the beginning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. They are under the myth, under the spell of māyā. This is going on.
Prabhupāda: Responsibility is that you have got this human form of life, realize God, this is wanted. Otherwise you are finished. Three words. You have got this human form of life, your only responsibility is to understand God. This is your responsibility. That is Vedic culture. For understanding God, many, many kings, many, many saints, they left everything and went to the forest to realize God. That is Vedic culture. Bharata Mahārāja, under whose name India is called Bhāratavarṣa, he was the emperor of this planet, and at the age of twenty-four years he left everything to realize God. This is Vedic culture. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, His position was very, very nice as a gṛhastha. A nice beautiful wife, affectionate mother, good influence, brāhmaṇa family, learned scholar—everything first class. He left everything, just to show us. He was God Himself, but to set the example, tyaktvā su-dustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīm (SB 11.5.34), He gave up a kingdom, a fortune, which is aspired by the demigods. Such a nice life, such a nice family, (indistinct). Tyaktvā su-dustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīṁ dharmiṣṭha ārya (SB 11.5.34), just to teach us the process of realizing God. This is Vedic culture. Be careful, somebody may not (indistinct). There is enough water? No.
Devotee (1): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Hm? Very deep?
Devotee (1): Not so much.
Prabhupāda: What is that? I do not follow.
Bhagavān: When Brahmā creates the different species, they're not created one at a time. They're... All over the universe, there's different species which he creates?
Prabhupāda: Brahmā is created first. So he does not belong to the species. Immediately, he's a demigod. So where is the question of evolution?
Bhagavān: Yeah. So you understand? Brahmā is created first. So it's not that we started from one-celled animals and worked up to Brahmā.
Satsvarūpa: But on a particular planet is it like that?
Prabhupāda: Everywhere.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They're all demigods, these pictures?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Demi-animals.
Prabhupāda: This is, I think, Adam and Eve, in the midst, middle? There must be some sense in the picture.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Yes, there is.
Paramahaṁsa: People are believing that at the end of life, there's just death. So why worry about anything else? Therefore we should just enjoy right now.
Prabhupāda: That is the difference between you and animal. The animal is in the slaughterhouse. He's not worried. But why you are worried. Suppose if you are brought in the slaughterhouse, and if you know that you'll be slaughtered, are you not worried? An animal is not worried. He's eating grass. That's all. So that is the difference between animal and man. If you are not worried, then you are animal. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Aham ādir hi devānām. In the Bible it is said, "There was word." That is Vedic knowledge.
Nitāi: Aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ: "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the sages know My origin for in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages."
Yogeśvara: You said also in the Bible it is said, "There is the word."
Prabhupāda: That word, sound, is the Vedas. So before creation, Vedas were there. So you cannot find out the history of Vedas. You find out the history where the creation began. Then, before that, Vedas were there. (French)
Yogeśvara: He (the Bishop) says that he finds many things agreeable in this Vedic tradition, but he says that he thinks it might be a mistake to say that the Bible is exactly the same thing as the Vedas. He says there are still distinctions.
Prabhupāda: Then, then, distinction, then it is to be considered which is perfect, the later edition or the original.
Guest: Under many influences.
Prabhupāda: No, influence should be only Kṛṣṇa or God. Kṛṣṇa, when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, God, but they have no clear idea what is God. How does He speak, how does He act. Where does He live. What is His form. What is his color. Nobody knows. Ask any religious people, "Do you know about all these?" (tape too faint to hear) (indistinct) If they think about it at all. First of all, generally they think of something impersonal or void. The Buddhists they think God is zero. And others they think God has no form. So, two classes. The Hindus they think God has not particular form, (indistinct). And you can imagine any of them(?) That is Śaṅkara. The pañcopāsanā. But still Śaṅkara is very careful. He has given five particular forms—the Goddess Durgā, Lord Viṣṇu, Lord Siva, the sun. Therefore there are sections—the sun worshipers, the fire worshipers. Originally, (indistinct). That is Vedic culture. Their Vedic culture means many demigods. But the original God is accepted, Viṣṇu. And original to Viṣṇu is Kṛṣṇa. īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Kṛṣṇa also says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is no superior form or authority than Me." That is confirmed by Lord Brahmā, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇah (Bs. 5.1). Kṛṣṇa is controller. There are different grades of controller but the supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam, "Unto Me, no one else.
Prabhupāda: Misconception, yes. The majority of Indian population, they are personalists. Yes, majority. Either they worship God or demigod, but they are personalists. Recently the Māyāvādī philosophers, they have poisoned, the impersonalism, calamity. God is person. It is... In the Veda it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). There are millions of persons. We are all persons. And God is the chief person. Just like in modern democracy, there is no monarch. But ultimately they have to select one president. Without person, there cannot be government. Why they do not remain without a president? Let it... Government, everything is government, impersonal. Why they select a president?
Professor Durckheim: Yes. One who takes lead, yes, sure.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if for a small government, three bighās of land, you require a personal governor, and such a huge government, millions and millions of universes, how the governor, the Supreme Person, supreme executive, shall not be a person? What is the reason? Actually, at the present moment, people have given up to understand the science of God. That is the defect. They are thinking everything here. Here is advertisement, "Everything here. Come on. Here is a bottle. Here is the pack (peg?). Come on." Everything here. That is the defect. And we are preaching, "Everything is not there." "Everything is lost there," we are preaching. No intoxication. And the material world is preaching, "Everything is there." This is the difference.
Prabhupāda: ...has got this body of a tree and one has got the body of human being, demigod. So the reason is kāraṇam, kāraṇam means reason, guṇa-saṅgo 'sya, as he is infecting the modes of material nature. Infection. If we infect some choleric diarrhea, we suffer. Nature's law is. Therefore human being should be cautious not to infect. Just like educated man or civilized man, he is cautious not to infect some kind of contaminated disease. Similarly, human form of body with higher consciousness is there just to remain always cautious not to infect material, I mean, modes of nature. And that is devotional service.
- māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa
- bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate
- sa guṇān samatītyaitan
- brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
- (BG 14.26)
"One who is always engaged in My service without any deviation..." Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Madhudviṣa: So what enables a person to do that?
Prabhupāda: No... But principle is that you try to understand that you are not this body. That is applicable in all time, all circumstances, all, for everyone. It is not that formerly one had to learn that he's not this body, and now that is not required. The same problem is there still. Arjuna, five thousand years ago he was given lesson about this, that "You are not this body; you are soul." The same problem is now also for the foolish person because the foolish person will always remain in the world, and the intelligent man is to teach him. This is fact always, without any consideration of time, space, and circumstance. There will be certain class of men, foolish, and there will be certain class of men who are intelligent. So the foolish man has to take intelligence from the intelligent man. This is perpetually truth in this material world. It is not, time and circumstances changes this principle. There will be foolish men. Just like now we read, "Two classes of men are there always, the demons and the demigods." So at the present moment more demons. Two classes of men are there always, but at the present moment the demons, number of demons, are more and number of demigods are less because it is Kali-yuga.
Yogeśvara:
- bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
- sarva-loka-maheśvaram
- suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
- jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
- (BG 5.29)
(reads French Translation) So here in this verse that Śrīla Prabhupāda quotes, Kṛṣṇa says, "Knowing Me to be the ultimate goal of all sacrifices and all austerities, the Lord of all planets and of all demigods, the friend and well-wisher of all living beings, the sage finds relief from all material miseries."
Prabhupāda: So long I think that I am the friend or father of my children, I will have to give..., help them, so I am thinking falsely responsible. Actually I cannot do anything. Therefore, the so-called responsibility is māyā. My real responsibility is how to realize God.
Prabhupāda: To the qualified physician, not to the storekeeper. Similarly, first thing is, when you want to solve the problem, you must go to the right person. First of all you have to select. So we understand that Kṛṣṇa is the right person. So therefore, it is guaranteed. He knows everything. Others, they do not know. May know to some extent, not perfect. The first thing is that we have to select from whom. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In Vedas it is stated in order to solve the problem or to understand the situation, you should go to the guru. So who can be better than Kṛṣṇa as guru? He taught, He gave lessons to Brahmā, the original living creature in this universe. Tene brahma hṛdā. He gave lessons to Brahmā how to create. Therefore, who can be better guru than Kṛṣṇa? Or even Brahmā. Brahmā, (indistinct) he has created this universe, but He taught Brahmā. And Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the supreme guru. To take instruction from Him or His pure representative, that is wanted. Otherwise, there will be trouble(?). You cannot compare any ordinary person with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the original guru, instructor. You do not know about Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing. But if you want to solve your problems, you must approach the guru. That is the Vedic instruction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This verb is used when you must: no excuse, gacchet, vidhiliṅ. In Sanskrit there are different forms of verb. So when vidhiliṅ is used, that means you must. There is no question of alternative. You must. So Kṛṣṇa is the original guru. Tene brahma ādi-kavaye, ādi-kavi. Ādi-kavaye means ādi-kavi, the original learned scholar. How much brain he has that he has created this universe, Brahmā. He has created the demigods, he has created the planets, so who can (indistinct)? And he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guru-kṛpa: He will stay as long as the sun... He is present?
Prabhupāda: Yes, he has got a duration of life. When the creation will be annihilated he'll be annihilated. He'll be not annihilated. Nobody is annihilated, but he's not manifest, nonmanifest. He is demigod. The demigods, with the annihilation of the material world, they will be all finished. But Kṛṣṇa will remain there. Aham eva āsam agre. And He will be remained. He was in the beginning of creation, and at the end of creation He'll be there.
Guru-kṛpa: Prabhupāda, in the Bhāgavatam, it is mentioned, sarva-devāmayo guruḥ (SB 11.17.27). What is the meaning?
Prabhupāda: "Guru is the representation of all Gods and demigods."
Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, in Vṛndāvana you were explaining about the sun, that the sun is not fire, but the living entities there have glowing bodies. So how do they glow? You said it was not the glow of the soul, but it was...
Prabhupāda: How do you not glow? How? God has made you not glowing, and He has made them glowing. That's all. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1).
Prabhupāda: To become God conscious is good, and anything else, all bad. God is good. Therefore, if you are God conscious, you are good, and if you are not God conscious, then you are bad.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): If God created man?
Prabhupāda: Yes. God created everything. God created man, God created dog, God created demigods, God created everything.
Professor: He made us imperfect.
Prabhupāda: No, He is not imperfect.
Professor: No, God made us imperfect.
Prabhupāda: No, you have got that... Just like you have stolen, and you have gone to the prison house. That means judge is not imperfect; you are imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Then you can check.
Reporter: And the only way to surrender is to accept this...
Prabhupāda: Otherwise there is no certainty. You can become demigod also. You can become higher planetary... But you have to change your body. Either you become dog or you can become demigod, but change your body, that is fact.
Reporter: You mean it always comes back as some form of animal?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that?
Haṁsadūta: Whether you always return as an animal?
Prabhupāda: No, not always. There are 8,400,000 forms of life.
Reporter: A hundred thousand.
Prabhupāda: Eight million.
Prabhupāda: So do that. Don't approach the cheater guru, bluffer guru, and be cheated. Stop this business. This has spoiled the whole spiritual atmosphere of the world. Take guru, the supreme guru, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, when in Mahābhārata when Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira performed rājasūya yajña, in the rājasūya yajña one person is elected the chief guest. So in that yajña many big, big demigods were present, and Bhīṣmadeva was present, Vyāsadeva was present, and many, many other saintly person, brāhmaṇa, from the whole universe were present. And Kṛṣṇa was decided to be accepted as the... Everyone agreed to accept Him as the chief guest. And the Śiśupāla, he protested. Then everyone was angry to kill him. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted the guru by everyone. By our ācāryas, recent ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya... I am not speaking of the loafer class, but those who are recognized ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya... They accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru and follow His instruction and try to convince others. "Others" means even your family members. That is success of life. Saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. Why should you lead your life blindly? This human life is meant for enlightenment, supreme enlightenment, and this is supreme enlightenment, to understand the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā and preach it as far as you can. If not, you can preach amongst your family members. This is perfection of life. What is that verse? Ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. That is the desire of Kṛṣṇa.
Ambassador: The process of change of consciousness which is actually taking place in the world under many influences, I think...
Prabhupāda: No. The influence should be only Kṛṣṇa, or God. Kṛṣṇa, when we speak of "Kṛṣṇa"—God. But they have no clear idea what is God. How does He speak, how does He act, where does He live, what is His form, what is His qualities—nobody knows. Ask any religious people, "Do you know about all this, about God?" They do not know. What do you think, Atreya? Have they any clear conception of God? They imagine something. If they think of God at all... First of all, generally they think of impersonal or void. Just like the Buddhists. They think God is zero. And others, they think that God has no form. The two classes. The Hindus they think, "Yes, God has no particular form, but He has got many forms. And you can imagine any one of them." That is Śaṅkara, the pañcopāsana. But still, Śaṅkara is very careful. He has given five particular forms. The Goddess Durgā, Lord Viṣṇu, Lord Śiva, the sun, then... Therefore there are a section who are the sun worshiper, or fire worshiper. Original Iranians were like that. So that is Vedic culture. There... Vedic culture means there are many demigods, but the original God is accepted-Viṣṇu.
Prabhupāda: But then where is the śāstra? Three things: the devotee or saintly person, śāstra and guru. He has no guru. He has no support from the śāstra. (laughs) So he's a fool, rascal number one, and he is God. He was a illiterate priest. He had no knowledge of śāstra. Besides that, in the śāstra it is said that "Those who are worshiping other demigods, their intelligence is lost." So he was worshiping Kālī. So he had no intelligence or spiritual realization, and he became God? So these things can be accepted by other fools and rascals. But those who follow śāstra, they will reject immediately.
Acyutānanda: What if they say Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a devotee, He worshiped the Supreme Lord, kīrtana, but His disciples say He's God?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Acyutānanda: Simply the disciples have said He's God.
Prabhupāda: No. That... Why do you...? I have already said that He's supported by śāstra. He's supported by śāstra. He's supported by learned scholars, means, in the transcendental scholars. And supported by guru. We follow our guru. So guru says; śāstra says; saintly persons say. Therefore we accept.
Prajāpati: A very major thing happenned to the Christian tradition in about 400 A.D. Up until that time, as best our records are, Christianity was very much like Kṛṣṇa consciousness, very much like our movement. But at that time it became the official religion of the Roman Empire under Constantine, and it took on many of the paraphernalia of the old Roman demigod worship, and at that time it became a whole...
Prabhupāda: Just to make it favorable for your government, for the government.
Acyutānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then deterioration began.
Prabhupāda: Hm? That is God's desire, nature's way. Nature is behind this, and behind nature...
Devotee: Through the demigods?
Prabhupāda: No. Nature, the material nature, and... Just like in... Sometimes at night you have got, what is called, pollution, night pollution?
Trivikrama: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So why it is happenning? Why it is happenning? Why this eruption comes? Can you explain?
Devotee: I don't know what night pollution is.
Trivikrama: Passing semina in sleep.
Devotee: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Why it does happen? What is your explanation? Nobody can explain?
Rāmeśvara: Desire in the heart, subtle desire.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is nature, just...
Prabhupāda: No, no, nature... The body is made of material nature, and the eruption is coming. Why it is coming? Does it come in the dead body?
Devotee: No.
Prabhupāda: That's said. And that is much. These rascals are chewing the chewed. One thing one has chewed, and throwing it, and again another person trying to chew it—if there is any mellow, if there is any sweetness. This is going on. Just like our Indian leaders, they are going to chewing the chewed. They are seeing the effect of material civilization in the Western countries, and they are going to imitate it, thinking that they will be happy with that. They are giving up their own culture, and they are going to accept another culture which is already failed (?) andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31).
- matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā
- mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām
- adānta gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ
- punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām
- (SB 7.5.30)
Adānta gobhir. Real disease is adānta go, uncontrolled senses. Viśatāṁ tamisram, entering into the darkest region of material existence. Punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed, again and again, the same sense gratification. Sometimes as a human being, sometimes as a hog, sometimes as a dog, sometimes as a demigod. But the business is the same: punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30).
Trivikrama: So-called enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you manufacture your program of enjoyment, then you will be slapped. And if you enjoy according to the direction of the father, then you'll enjoy. This is the... Kṛṣṇa says, "Enjoy life. All right. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. Live peacefully. Always think of Me. Worship Me." That we have prescribed. Come here and think of Kṛṣṇa. And so that is enjoyment. So they don't want. They want liquor. They want illicit sex. They want meat. So therefore they must be slapped. Actually all this whole universe is made for your enjoyment, but enjoy it according to His direction. Then you will enjoy. That is the difference between demigod and demon. The demon wants to enjoy, manufacturing his own way of life. And the demigod, they enjoy better than the demons because under the direction of God.
Prabhupāda: What is there? What is the purport?
Brahmānanda: "As stated in the Fifteenth Chapter, all living beings are fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord. As such, the Supreme Lord is the beginning of all living entities. It is confirmed in the Vedānta-sūtra-janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The Supreme Lord is therefore the beginning of life of every living entity. And the Supreme Lord, by His two energies, His external energy and internal energy, is all-pervading. Therefore one should worship the Supreme Lord with His energies. Generally the Vaiṣṇava devotees worship the Supreme Lord with His internal energy. His external energy is a perverted reflection of the internal energy. The external energy is a background, but the Supreme Lord, by the expansion of His plenary portion as Paramātmā, is situated everywhere. He is the Supersoul of demigods, all human beings, all animals, everywhere. One should therefore know that as part and parcel of the Supreme Lord it is his duty to render service unto the Supreme. Everyone should be engaged in devotional service to the Lord in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is recommended in this verse. Everyone should think that he is engaged in a particular type of occupation by Hṛṣīkeśa, the master of the senses. And, by the result of the work in which he is engaged, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, should be worshiped."
Prabhupāda: Now, he is electrician. If whatever he earns he engages in worship Kṛṣṇa, then he is transcendental. He is not electrician; he is a Vaiṣṇava. This is clearly said.
Paramahaṁsa: "As far as the duties of mankind are concerned, there are innumerable duties. Every man is duty-bound not only to his parents, family members, society, country, humanity, other living beings, the demigods, etc., but also to the great philosophers, poets, scientists, etc. It is enjoined in the scriptures that one can relinquish all such duties and surrender unto the service of the Lord. So if one does so and becomes successful in the discharge of his devotional service unto the Lord, it is well and good. But it so happens sometimes that one surrenders himself unto the service of the Lord by some temporary sentiment, and in the long run, due to so many other reasons, he falls down from the path of service by undesirable association. There are so many instances of this in the histories. Bharata Mahārāja was obliged to take his birth as a stag due to his intimate attachment to a stag. He thought of this stag when he died. As such, in the next birth he became a stag, although he did not forget the incidents of his previous birth. Similarly, Citraketu also fell down due to his offenses at the feet of Śiva. But in spite of all this, the stress is given here to surrendering unto the lotus feet of the Lord, even if there is a chance of falling down, because even though one falls down from the prescribed duties of devotional service, he will never forget the lotus feet of the Lord. Once engaged in the devotional service of the Lord, one will continue the service in all circumstances. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that even a small quantity of devotional service can save one from the most dangerous position. There are many instances of such examples in history. Ajāmila is one of them. Ajāmila in his early life was a devotee, but in his youth he fell down. Still, he was saved by the Lord at the end."
Prabhupāda: Even by sentiment one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is not loser; he is gainer. And if one person does not come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does his duty very nicely, he gains nothing.
Prabhupāda: There is no law; it is all lusty desire. All law or no law, these are all nonsense. The śāstra has... It is lusty desire, that's all. Everyone wants to fulfill a lusty desires. So unless one is not in the modes of goodness or transcendental, everyone will like. That is the material world, rajas-tamaḥ. Rajas-tamo-bhāvaḥ kāma-lobhadayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). It is all discussed in the śāstra. Just like I am hungry man. There is foodstuff. I want to eat it. So if I take by force, that is illegal, and if I pay for it, then it is legal. But I am the hungry man, I want it. This is going on. Everyone is lusty. Therefore they say "legalized prostitution." They want it. So marriage is something legalized, that's all. The passion and the desire is the same, either married or not married. So this Vedic law says, "Better married. Then you will be controlled." Married life... So he will not be so lusty as without married life. So the gṛhastha life is a concession-same lusty desire under rules and regulation. That's all. That is our higher... (?) Without married life he will commit rapes in so many ways, so better let him be satisfied with one, both the man and woman, and make progress in spiritual life. That is concession. Everyone in this material world has come with these lusty desires and greediness. Even demigods like Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā... The Lord Brahmā became lusty after his daughter. And Lord Śiva became so mad after Mohinī-murti. So what to speak of us insignificant creatures. So lusty desire is there. That is material world. Unless one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, this lusty desire cannot be checked. It is not possible.
Devotee (1): (break) ...till they give up their lusty desires.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required because unless you give up your lusty desires, you will have to remain in this material world, and to remain in the material means suffering. If you actually do not want suffering, then you have to practice all these things so that you can go to the spiritual world. That is the aim of life. And for going to the spiritual world, you have to be completely, cent percent free from all material desires. And so long you will have material desires, you have to accept one material body. Nature is so kind, or the law of nature is so perfect. As long as you will have a little pinch of material desire, then you will have to accept. That's all. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad... And that material life means you may become a grass or you may become a demigod like Brahmā. That will depend on your desire. But you will have to accept. (end)
Paramahaṁsa: They think that suffering together with your friends is enjoying.
Prabhupāda: No, they... Just like the ass. He does not know what is happening. Therefore he is agreeing, "All right, load with me any number of heavy weight. I shall carry." He does not know it is suffering. He has accepted the service of the man, bearing so much load, and he is giving little grass. The grass he can take from here, but he thinks that "He is maintaining me." Just see. This is ignorance. Therefore mūḍhā, this word is used. Suffering, suffering, suffering. Material nature is awarding sufferings after suffering. Still, they are not wake up. Who cares for suffering? (break) ...stand this philosophy that acceptance of this material body is suffering. They will say, "Oh, I have got this American body. I have got so much opulence. What is suffering?" He'll not believe. But real philosophy is that acceptance of this material body, whatever it may be, the demigod or dog, it is suffering. Who will understand? Even the demigods, they do not understand.
Prabhupāda: This is the solution of the real problem, that after... If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then after giving up this body, you don't accept another material body. And in the material existence the problems are not solved because you have to, after death, you have to accept another material body. And as soon as you accept a material body, the sufferings are there, at least these four sufferings: birth, death, old age, and disease. So it continues. If you take the body of a human being, the birth, death, old age, disease are there. If you take the body of a heavenly demigod, the birth, death, old age, and disease are there. Or if you take the body of a dog, the birth, death, old age, disease are there. So any kind of birth, material body, you have to accept these four problems. And there are many other problems. But if you stop accepting a material body, then these things are finished. So we are training people, simply janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9).
Prabhupāda: So we are trying to make some first-class men. That's all. This is our aim. Even if he is fourth-class man, it doesn't matter. If he takes up the training, he becomes first class. And as soon as he becomes a first-class man, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti, even if he is not liberated, he goes in higher planetary system amongst the demigods. Then there he gets more advanced. He goes to Brahmā. If he is not directly transferred to the spiritual world, then he gets these facilities. And with Brahmā, at the end of this creation, annihilation, they go to the spiritual world.
Devotee (1): Just by becoming first-class men.
Prabhupāda: That is described. Śamo damas titikṣā, that... You were not here, hearing? That is first class.
Devotee (1): So just by becoming first-class men you can go to the heavenly planets?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is meant for a first-class man. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti. Ūrdhvam means higher planetary system.
Prabhupāda: Then Greek, where they got it?
Devotee (1): Some of the days are named after different demigods. Wednesday is named after a god named Woden.
Prabhupāda: Where they got these demigods?
Śrutakīrti: From Greek mythology.
Prabhupāda: Greek mythology, that's all right. But where they got?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, they say they made it up.
Amogha: But all knowledge comes from the Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Greek history is about three thousand years. (break) ...During the time of Mahārāja Parīkṣit's grandson. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was the grandson of Yudhiṣṭhira, and Yudhiṣṭhira ruled over five thousand years ago. So the Yayāti... Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's grandson is Parīkṣit. His son is Janamejaya. And his son is Yayāti. And his son started Greek and Roman Empire. So therefore the Greek history is not more than three thousand years. Mahārāja Yayāti banished his two sons to the European quarters. Mleccha-yavana. Later on they became yavana, from Vedic culture deviated. This is the history.
Prabhupāda: They are all descendant of the same.
Amogha: Did the Greek civilization follow the Vedic culture?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They were worshiping demigods from the Vedas.
Paramahaṁsa: But they didn't have a very high standard.
Prabhupāda: These, these Vedic mantra, there is mention of so many demigods, how they were born. You do not know the meaning.
Paramahaṁsa: No, we are just chanting.
Prabhupāda: How, one after another, how one is born out of the... That is... How the brāhmaṇas were there, kṣatriyas were there—everything in Vedic... These Vedic mantra means the history of human society. And the origin is God, Kṛṣṇa, Nārāyaṇa. There are other mantras wherein it is stated, eko nārāyaṇa āsīt. "Only Nārāyaṇa was there." Neither Lord Śiva nor Brahmā.
Prabhupāda: No. Everywhere there is everything, maybe proportionately in different quantities.
Hari-śauri: Is that governing that Brahmā does in the universe, he does that in relationship with all the other demigods like they are departmental heads? So he is not personally directing every single thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he is given in charge. Just like we have got different GBC's for different jobs. Similarly, they are doing their duty nicely. All these planets are the different residential quarter of different demigods. They are controlling the whole universal affairs. In comparison to them, this human being is nothing. We are controlled; we are not controller. That they do not realize. The modern civilization they do not realize, although they are being controlled they do not recognize it. That is the defect. This way?
Devotee (2): Yeah.
Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the human form is insignificant compared to demigods, but still, it is very much desired, this human form of life, even by the demigods?
Prabhupāda: Yes, because very good chance of realizing God in the human form of life. Just like difference between Western countries and India. India, a very quick chance of realization of God. The atmosphere is so nice. So this planet is good for God realization, and the best place is in India.
Madhudviṣa: And the demigods we cannot see. Like the demigods, the higher human species, we cannot see.
Prabhupāda: You, why do you believe on your seeing? That is the defect. That is the defect of the Westerners. They are very deficient; still they say, "I cannot see." What is your seeing power? Suppose if Nārada comes, some demigods come, but you cannot see. Just like when Lord Nṛsiṁha-deva appeared, Prahlāda was seeing. "Is your God here?" "Yes." And he could not see. So why do you believe so much on your seeing? You have to attain seeing power. That is very good example, Prahlāda... Hiraṇyakaśipu asking Prahlāda, "Where is your God?" "My God is everywhere." "He is on the pillar?" "Yes." So he was seeing, but he was not seeing. He became angry and broke the pillar. "Let me see, where is your God." This is the position. So one has to create the eyes to see things. Not that whatever eyes you have got you can see everything. No. Just like motorcar is being driven, a child is seeing that the car is running automatically. And the father is seeing, "No, there is driver."
Prabhupāda: Cooperating. Thief, thief's cooperation.
Devotee: In the Bhāgavatam in Canto Two, it's mentioned here that without discrimination both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees in the Lord's personal abode. I was wondering if you could explain how this is possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the explanation of the śāstra. Those who are devotees... You can see the devotees, they are gods, demigods. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved daivaḥ. Viṣṇu-bhakta, those who are devotees of Viṣṇu, Vaiṣṇava, they are demigods. So why do you say we do not see the demigods?
Madhudviṣa: It also says the demons.
Prabhupāda: Demons, those who are not devotees. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ. Those who are opposing these Vaiṣṇavas, they are asuras.
Prabhupāda: We have got in India two period holiday, summer holiday and Pūjā holiday. There is a season for worshiping different types of demigods. That is called Pūjā. And in India when the summer becomes too hot, that is holiday. (guests prepare to leave) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Guest 1: I wish you a good trip and a happy trip.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Guest 1: And also I hope that the building in Sydney eventuates.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest 1: That you will see or hear about tomorrow morning.
Amogha: They're working on that tonight.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Off this light. (end)
Prabhupāda: There is life everywhere. Bhagavad-gītā says, sarva-gaḥ. The life is there everywhere. And moon planet, according to our Vedic literature, that is one of the demigods' place. People live there daiva age, ten thousand years.
Devotee (3): They will not believe in the demigods...
Prabhupāda: So I will not believe them. That's all, finished. (laughter)
Devotee (3): They cannot see them.
Prabhupāda: What can you see, teeny eyes? What can you see? Can you see what is there on the other side of the sea? Then does it mean there is nothing? Your nonsense seeing. Why you are believing of seeing? Your seeing power is very, very limited. Why do you believe in seeing? That is childish, "I cannot see." What you can see? First of all, let us consider this point. You cannot see anything.
Prabhupāda: No, they'll not accept. Therefore... therefore fools. Why? The circumstance is the same. Why there should be no life? That is foolishness. We have got experience. As soon as there is water, there is life. As soon as there is land, there is life. As soon as there is air, there is life. So where is life? No life.
Devotee (3): They may agree in undeveloped species, but as far as higher forms of life, they will not agree, such as humans or demigods.
Prabhupāda: No, that also we cannot agree. If there are lower species, there must be higher species. As we see here is dog also, man also, higher species, lower species, why not there? They can talk all nonsense, but a nonsense will believe. No sane man will believe. (break) ...going to meet in the space?
Ambarīṣa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is the idea?
Ambarīṣa: It's a diplomatic move. They feel it will make friendly relationships between the two countries.
Indian man: They cannot meet on the earth and they are going to meet on the... (laughter) (break)
Prabhupāda: So I am the only man in the world challenging that "You have not gone to the moon planet."
Bali-mardana: They were not qualified to go to the moon, so Kṛṣṇa sent them there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are not qualified. Even in this planet, unless one is bona fide, he is not allowed to enter America. How you can go to the moon planet? That is demigods' planet.
Harikeśa: Some of the astronauts became very religious after they supposedly went.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are intelligent, that "This is all nonsense. Real thing is God." That is... They come to their senses. They are intelligent. (break) (In car:) ...real business is to enhance your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These people, they are wasting time simply to know something else. There is no limit. Kliśyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. What is moon planet? What business you have got to know the...? Whatever is stated in the śāstra, accept it, that's all. What is the use of experiment and going there and then again say, "Oh, it is all failure." Simply waste of time. The arrangement is there by God. That's all. Spending so much money, hard-earned money, unnecessarily and then say, "Oh, it is failure."
Prabhupāda: That is.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Worship of demigods. They also say, "Putting any god in front of the one Supreme God." Worshiping matter. (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Berkeley there's this one demon, so-called Christian, and every day he comes out and he stands behind us with a big sign that "You will not achieve anything by your mantras and meditation." And he calls us idol worshipers. And now he writing these big signs, "Don't chant Hare Kṛṣṇa with them." He chanting... He's writing, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," and he's telling... (laughter)
Prabhupāda: You charge, "Why you are chanting?" (break)
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Still they do not accept God. (break) ...ājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro. Everything is. (break) ...cribing the whole universal situation, Śukadeva Gosvāmī concluded, "as God has made it." He never mentioned any other demigod. "As God has made it." Yathā bhagavān kriyetām (break) ...not to accept the authority of Kṛṣṇa, misfortune. Narādhama. (break) (walking:) ...kara bhai, ara saba mithyā, palaya patha nara yo mache piche(?): "Everyone should take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Remember, behind you there is the Yamarāja, death." (break) ...to avoid this horrible conception that there is death, and they avoid this, that "There is death, but there is no life again." That's all. (break) ...this dog race and what is the rat race? There is a word, rat race?
Jayatīrtha: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Now big, big scholars, they have taken the trouble to write on Bhagavad-gītā. But nobody has taken the trouble to write on other scriptures like Bible or Koran. Nobody has taken. No scholar, no philosopher have tried to comment or study because they know it is not very important. Here is important. This is the proof, wisest. And that is only ABCD of God's knowledge. So people should take advantage. It is accepted indirectly. There are so many editions of Bhagavad-gītā, in your country, English. Why they take trouble to read Bhagavad-gītā so carefully? Big, big scholars, philosophers, why? (break) It is the impersonal, cloth. So Śaṅkarācārya has tried to impress this fact, but the rascals followed in a different way. Just like a cloth, big cloth, that is impersonal. Now, you cut it into coat. It becomes like person. So similarly this whole material world is impersonal, but because we have taken a certain portion of it and make my body, it looks like person. And God is not like that. He is spiritual person. He has nothing to do with material. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). What Śaṅkarācārya impressed, that they are after demigods, so "The demigods, they are not actual person.
Nitāi: She is eighty.
Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) ...Dakṣa accused Nārada that "My sons were not out of the three kinds of debts." One debt is debtor to the saintly sages. Just like we are reading Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, we are indebted to Vyāsadeva. He has given such literature, and we are taking advantage of it. As such, especially the brāhmaṇas, they have got indebtedness to big sages and saintly person. They receive knowledge from them. And they are indebtor to the demigods. Therefore they have to perform yajñas. And they are indebtor to their father because the father has brought them to this world. So in this way, especially a brāhmaṇa is indebted to demigods, the past sages, and the father. So the indebtedness to the sages is performed by becoming brahmacārī, and to the demigods by offering sacrifices, and to the father by begetting children, to continue the progeny. So Nārada Muni was accused that "You keep them indebted to these principles, so how they can be liberated? Simply by dressing like you, (laughs) a mendicant?" Accusing. But perhaps he did not know.
Yadubara: So if we're beaten by this material nature, then we'll go away.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. No, material nature's business is beating and kicking. That's his only business. But we are so fool, we are taking, "Oh, very nice kicking." That is the disease. We accept the kicking as very nice. That is foolishness. We are suffering always by three kinds of..., ādhyātmika, ādhibhautika, ādhidaivika disturbances. There is disturbance in the body, in the mind, disturbance by other living entities, so many, disturbed by climate, disturbed by famine. Always disturbance. Still, we are thinking, "It is very nice place." This is foolishness. Still, we are trying to improve it. That is foolishness. He does not think that "What is the meaning of improvement? The disturbing is always continuing." That does not come to his brain. They are making improvement. (break) ...improvement, they can say, "This is improvement." But how long this improvement will go? If there is no rainfall, what this improvement will help? So that is not in your hand. That is ādhidaivika. It depends on the demigods. If they want, they can stop completely, no rainfall. Then what this improvement will do?
Brahmānanda: There'll be no water for their machines.
Prabhupāda: They think. They are foolish. They can think like that. Generally, that is... Not that devotees are not opulent. No, that is not. But this materialistic opulence means fallen condition.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The demigods are in a very opulent position also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But they are devotees.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they are devotees, not fallen.
Prabhupāda: They can fall. Everyone can fall. (break)
Tripurāri: ...says that a sannyāsī should not take, be anxious for disciples but should only take those who are qualified. But sometimes, when there's no one qualified, he takes a risk.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One who does not like to take the risk, they do not take the risk of preaching. But one who takes the risk, he is recognized by Kṛṣṇa immediately, "Oh, he is taking risk." But he must know where to take risk and where to act foolishly. Just like Nityānanda Prabhu took the risk of being injured. But He was certain that "I can deliver him."
Prabhupāda: So God was there and God's word was there. That is the beginning, our beginning. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Aham evāsam agre. And Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is our philosophy, "Everything begins from God." Now you can say, "Wherefrom God came?" But that is God. God existing, He is not caused by any other cause, He is the original cause. Anādir ādiḥ: "He has no beginning, but He is the beginning of everything." This is conception of God. Anādir ādir govindaḥ (Bs. 5.1). That ādi is Govinda, person, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). We find from the history. Brahmā is the beginning. He is deva, one of the demigods. Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām. So He is the cause of Brahmā also. So this is our philosophy. We don't begin from zero or accident. This is not our philosophy.
Lakṣmī-nārāyaṇa: Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that in the beginning of creation He sent forth generations of men among the demigods. So the bones that they have found of those...
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Lakṣmī-nārāyaṇa: I said the bones that they have found so far...
Prabhupāda: Who?
Lakṣmī-nārāyaṇa: Of the men that were living so many thousands of years ago.
Prabhupāda: But they are not demigods.
Lakṣmī-nārāyaṇa: No. But who are the bones... Where are those living entities now? Where they have gone?
Prabhupāda: You can go to the higher planetary system and try to see there, bones of the demigods. Besides that, according to our śāstra, when Brahmā dies, then everything is finished. So you have no chance to see. Where is your chance? Because everything will be finished, you will be finished, everything finished, with the death of Brahma, so you cannot study Brahma's bones. Just like taste of potassium cyanide. As soon as you taste, you are finished. (laughter) So you cannot say what is the taste.
Prof. Hopkins: Would it be bad for them or would they simply not learn from it.
Prabhupāda: No, as I told you the... Our only business is to know the Absolute Truth. If you do not try for this then you remain animals. Animal cannot know the Absolute Truth. So to remain animal means varieties of life. Sometimes cat, sometimes dog, sometimes demigod, sometimes this, sometimes that, sometimes American, sometimes something else. This will go on. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). In this life we are living, we are making the next body. So if we work nicely then next body may be the higher planetary system or above this material world, in the spiritual world.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: Also I heard that also in every act of..., like if I want to blink my eyelid, also there is a demigod. What is the necessity of so many demigods? Why can't Kṛṣṇa directly...
Prabhupāda: That how you can know? You are not the director. Director knows how many assistants he requires. You cannot know... You are under the direction. You are not director. (break) ...not a mechanic he cannot understand why there are so many parts in the motor car. He is a fool. He doesn't know. But a mechanic knows that these things are required.
Guru dāsa: If the soul cannot be burnt, why does the desire to be burnt in the material world there? Burnt, drowned...
Svarūpa-damodara: Destroyed.
Prabhupāda: He is not destroyed. When this body cannot work any more... Because this body is a machine. So a machine, if he does not move, then you, have to change to another machine.
Prabhupāda: Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Paramaḥ, paramaḥ means the Supreme. Our definition of God is that supreme in every respect. What man can do, the dog cannot do. What the dog can do, the cat cannot do. What the cat can do, the rat cannot do. So we see so many differences. Therefore there must be others who are more intelligent than man. That is demigod. And there must be others most intelligent than the demigods. In this way when you come to the final, that is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Go on finding out more, more, more. When you come to the final, that is God or Kṛṣṇa. So we take instruction from Him. Therefore we are better than the so-called university professors.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's... There is Siddhaloka—without any aeroplane they can go from one planet to another. They are so perfect.
Paramahaṁsa: So these, what they think are spaceships, perhaps are demigods?
Prabhupāda: Spaceships there are in every planet.
Paramahaṁsa: On every planet.
Prabhupāda: But there is a planet. The residents of that planet, they can go without any spaceship. Siddhaloka.
Rādhāvallabha: Scientists have done another test where they think... The scientists are doing tests where their opinion is that from certain acids life is coming. So they think that this can only happen...
Prabhupāda: Asses?
Rādhāvallabha: Acids, nucleic acids. So their opinion is that this can only occur in an atmosphere of methane. So they have understood from their telescopes that Jupiter has methane in its atmosphere, so therefore they say, "Very soon Jupiter will have life."
Prabhupāda: Very soon? Not now? They have got advance. Yes. (chuckles) Most of the scientists, they think only living beings are on this planet, and all, they are vacant. They say.
Prabhupāda: He cannot. He has all the duties. But one who has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness without any reservation, he has no duty. He has no respons...
- devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛṇaṁ pitṛṇaṁ
- nayam ṛṇī na kiṅkaro rājan
- sarvātmanā ye śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyaṁ
- gato mukundaṁ parihṛtya kārtam
- (SB 11.5.41)
This is the statement. As soon as we take birth, we have got so many responsibilities. We are responsible to perform sacrifices for all the demigods. You are taking light from the sun. You have got responsibility. Otherwise how you are getting so much light? If you don't pay the electric bill, the next day it will be disconnected. And you are taking so much light from the sun. You have no responsibility? You have. "No, there is no responsibility. You are taking light, air, water. So many things you are taking, supplied by the different demigods. Deva, ṛṣi, ṛṣi, great... Just like Vyāsadeva or many other ṛṣis, they have given you knowledge, and you have no responsibility? You have responsibility.
Mādhavānanda: Then the responsibility for some is to Kṛṣṇa; the responsibility of some is to the demigods?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Demigods, you have got responsibility. Deva, ṛṣi, bhūta, living entities. Just like you are taking milk from the cows. You have the responsibility to protect it, but you are killing. So you must suffer.
Bhagavān: So the present system is simply expert at producing completely irresponsible people.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are talking of responsibility. But one who is devotee... Eh?
Bhagavān: They say we are irresponsible.
Prabhupāda: No, we are not irresponsible. We have finished all responsibility. We are not irresponsible. But we are in such a position that we have passed all these responsibilities.
Prabhupāda: Responsibility is that you have got this human form of life. Realize God. This is your responsibility. Otherwise you are finished. Three words: "You have got this human form of life. Your only responsibility is to understand God. This is your responsibility." That is Vedic culture. For understanding God, many, many kings, many, many saints, they left everything and went to the forest to realize God. That is Vedic culture. Bhārata Mahārāja, under whose name India is called Bhāratavarṣa, he was the emperor of this planet, and at the age of twenty-four years he left everything to realize God. This is Vedic culture. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, His position was very, very nice, as a gṛhastha—a nice beautiful wife, affectionate mother, good influence, brāhmaṇa family, learned scholar, everything first class. He left everything just to show us. He was God Himself, but to set the example, tyaktvā sudustyaja-surepsita-rajya-lakṣmīm (SB 11.5.34). He gave up a kingdom of fortune which is aspired by the demigods. Such a nice life, such a nice family, but He gave up. Tyaktvā sudustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīm dharmistha arya... (SB 11.5.34). Just to teach us the process of realizing God. This is Vedic system. (break) Somebody may not push. (break) ...water? No. Very deep?
Dhanañjaya: Not so much here.
Indian man (1): Dvabhyanaṁ pathanaṁ pathī.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dvabhyaṁ patanam. (Hindi) ...instruction... (Hindi) Either you speak in Bengali or in Sanskrit. (break) Then that is an asset. One day they will come to help us. It is called ajñāta-sukṛtī, devotional advancement without knowledge. Even... (break) ...have appreciated. In Hyderabad, these Māyāvādī sannyāsīs were challenged by the people, that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has gone to foreign countries, and he established so many Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple. What did you do? If you say that you disagree with Bhaktivedanta Swami—you worship demigods—so how many demigods' temple you have established?" They challenge like that. "If you say that you are worshiper of Lord Śiva, why don't you go and establish a Śiva temple? You are sitting idly here."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? You mention in your book that recently they have begun some demigod worship in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not recently. Since very long time. These gosvāmīs.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Caste gosvāmīs. But originally this was not the fact.
Prabhupāda: Originally there was Rūpa Gosvāmī. Now they are imitating. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end)
Prabhupāda: Indian culture is given (Hindi), that to allow them to worship the demigods means at least to accept the authority, and then they gradually come to the supreme authority. Just like for the common man, to give respect to the police constable means giving respect to the government. But the police constable is not the president of the government. So one should know who is the president. That is advancement. If you remain, simply offering respect to the constable, that is not advancement.
Prabhupāda: I am the only intelligent person. (laughter) That's a fact. Mūḍho nābhijānāti.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says, antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām: (BG 7.23) "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary." So does this mean that these less intelligent people who are simply interested in temporary benefit... Even they don't worship demigods per se, it could be anyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Demigods... Yes. Just like one who is trying to get some good service. So they are worshiping this boss, that boss. That is also demigod, because without flattering some boss he cannot get some good job; without flattering the voters he cannot get the ministership. That is demigod worship. They have to flatter somebody. Why this Ram Gulab has gone to...? He has to flatter there. This is going on. The big bosses in the United Nation, they are demigods, supposed to be. He thinks, "If I flatter them, then I will be able to keep my position." But he does not think that this position will be lost after some years. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. He has forgotten his eternal life, Kṛṣṇa, and he is flattering these demigods. That's all. What he will gain? He will die. That's all. At the time of death what these United Nation leaders will do?
Cyavana: But we can improve the standard for future generations, for our children.
Prabhupāda: That you do. There is no harm. Lord Śiva is also called Mahādeva. Amongst the demigods, he is the chief. So if you worship Lord Śiva... We also worship Śiva. It is not that we disrespect Śiva. We offer our utmost respect to Lord Śiva. But that does not mean that he is the Supreme Lord.
Indian man (7): The difference that is there, Swamijī...
Prabhupāda: Difference I have already explained. You cannot understand?
Indian man (7): No, no, we pray Śiva first and then we go to pray Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So that you do. There is no harm. There is no harm. But you should understand what is Śiva and what is Viṣṇu. If you offer first prayer to Lord Śiva, there is no harm. It is good. He is... Vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ. He is our spiritual master. He is Vaiṣṇava. Why not offer first respect to him? But if you take Lord Śiva as the Supreme, that is insult. You are giving me respect as spiritual master, but if you give me overestimation, that "You are the king of the whole world," that is insult. That is insult. That is not prayer. If you offer me prayer as I am befitting, then it is all right. But if you give me prayer for which I am not befitting, that is insult. That is insult. So you must know what is the position of... Lord Śiva is Vaiṣṇava. He is the greatest devotee. He is the number-one demigod, and everything is all right. But if you say that he is the Supreme, then he will feel insulted, that "What is this nonsense saying?" So don't insult him in that way. That will go against your credit. He doesn't like that.
Indian man: Well, surrender to Him alone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And this Kālī, Durgā, and other demigods' worshipers, they have been described as lost of intelligence. That means fools.
Indian man: Fools. Those who worship them. Yes. But he also told us we must worship Kṛṣṇa too, you see.
Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa is to be worshiped—He is the Supreme Lord.
Indian man: Supreme Lord, yes.
Prabhupāda: They are fishing?
Indian man: Those people are surfing, you know? Surfboards. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...center of Divine Life here?
Indian man: Yes. It's in Reservoir Hills. Well, it's not far from place where we are living, Reservoir Hills. They've got a big āśrama there. They've got a resident swami there, Swami Sahajananda, and they've got a printing press and quarters, their living quarters and all, and they've got a few devotees living there.
Prabhupāda: How many?
Indian man: Well, they've got about four permanently living and then you get others coming during the day and helping the...
Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, they have a very big printing press there.
Prabhupāda: Printing press. Big... More than ours?
Harikeśa: (laughter) Nobody has a press more than yours.
Indian man (1): There is no special significance in it?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You get material profit. (break) Bhagavad-gītā it is said, (sic:) alpavat tu phalaṁ teṣām: "The result of material profit is for a short duration of time," tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām, "and these things are desired by less intelligent class of men." His real need is how to gain his spiritual life. That is his real need. But he does not want that. He wants some material profit for the time being. This is less intelligent. Suppose if somebody gives you some money and he says, "Tomorrow I shall take it away," will you... (laughs) So tad bhavaty alpa-medhasā. (break) ...kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajanty anya-devatāḥ: (BG 7.20) "They worship demigods, bewildered by lusty desires." And so long we have got lusty desires, we have to change our body, and that we do not know, what kind of body we are going to get next birth. Therefore, without knowing this, if we become mad after material profit, then less intelligent.
Prabhupāda: A devotee does not seek anything except service of Kṛṣṇa. He does not seek anything separate. He simply wants to serve Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Anyābhilāṣita śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Making zero all other desires, that, he is devotee. If he is going to Kṛṣṇa for some happiness, he is not a devotee.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...Vedic culture, there is descriptions of many demigods, and the karmīs, they would generally worship these different demigods for material benefits. Why didn't they just try to get the material benefits without worshiping the demigods, like they are doing today?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Today people are making money and trying to enjoy material life...
Prabhupāda: Who is making money? Who is making money?
Harikeśa: The government. It is printing it up.
Prabhupāda: Do you think everyone is making money?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So it's a big illusion? It's a big illusion?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone simply working hard like asses. That's all. This is their happiness. Just like the hog, he's working very hard to eat stool, and he is thinking happy. He is getting fatty. Do you think to work hard day and night and eat stool is happiness?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: So the news was there that Jesus Christ, after crucification, he was alive, and he went to... (aside:) Not so near. And he went to Kashmir. So by the yogic process, in samādhi one can remain alive although superficially he is seen that he is killed. That is possible. Hiraṇyakaśipu did that. He was undergoing tapasya for one hundred years of the demigods. Their duration of time is: our six months, their one day. So such a long time he was undergoing austerity, penance, and thus he became perfect. So his body was practically finished by the earthworm, what is called, moths and ants.
Brahmānanda: Because he was standing still?
Prabhupāda: Yes. For so many years everything was eaten. Only on the bones were there.
Brahmānanda: So he appeared to be dead, but he wasn't.
Prabhupāda: No, he was not dead. He was living on bones. Bones were there. Mean, life is not dependent on this material body. One can practice this by yoga. Without this body he can live. Just like ghost. That is possible.
Dr. Patel: Devī Purāṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Yes, you can eat meat. There is no harm. But you get it sacrificed before Goddess Kali." But this is not meant for the high-class brāhmaṇa. This is meant for the third-class dvija. But still, he is induced to accept some authority. In this way there are Purāṇas. Somebody is recommended to worship Lord Śiva, somebody is recommended to worship Kali, Durga, Sarasvatī, many demigods. But Nārada Muni chastised his disciple that "You have done wrong. Why you have recommended all these things?" Jugupsitam. That is said there, that "People will take your authority, and they will be engaged in worshiping different demigods." Actually that is not required. Then he compiled Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, only the Supreme Lord worshiped. The same thing as Kṛṣṇa explained, mam ekam. That is success. So Vyāsadeva was very much...
Dr. Patel: But, sir, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, He has already said in Mahābhārata also, you know?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Deva-nāgarī. In the heavenly planets this language is... Heavenly planet the Sanskrit language is used. Therefore it is called deva-nāgarī. Nāgara means town, and deva means demigod. This language is spoken in the heavenly planets, deva-nāgara. But these rascals, they think there is no living entity in any other planet except this.
Dr. Patel: Now the scientists have started saying...
Prabhupāda: So what kind of scientists? They can change their opinion?
Dr. Patel: Then they are learning science.
Prabhupāda: Rascals, say rascals. No, no, say... Learning means rascals.
Prabhupāda: ...goats before Kāla-bhairava.
Dr. Kalpana: It is, I mean, great description in Śiva Purāṇa.
Prabhupāda: Every, every demigod...
Dr. Patel: No, Devī Purāṇa.
Prabhupāda: ...has got some description in different Purāṇas.
Dr. Patel: This is in Devī Purāṇa, Bhairava-Bhāryā
Prabhupāda: There are sattvic, rājasic, tamasic Purāṇa. And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is mahā-purāṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (1): (Hindi) (break)
Dr. Patel: Air conditioning is not necessary. (break)
Prabhupāda: That is life. This artificial life is no life. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has described this modern civilization of artificial life. So he says, jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. He declares all these artificial way of life, advancement of material civilization, means advancement of influence of māyā. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. Expansion of the influence of māyā. Then? What is the result? The result is anitya saṁsāre, moho janmeiya.
Prabhupāda: Rāmakrishna men say, "You worship any demigod, you go to God." Kṛṣṇa does not say. They say, "There are as many ways." And Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam. They're all against śāstra. All against śāstra. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: Did you know this bhūteṣu tiṣṭhantaṁ parameśvaram? Na hināsty ātmāna ātmānam tathāpy ātmā... How shall you explain that, sir? Samaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu tiṣṭhantaṁ parameśvaram.
Prabhupāda: Sarvaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 13.28), that I have explained so many times. If you see materially either dog or a big brāhmaṇa, the body is the same material. Body, when you dissect the body you find the same blood, same muscle, same bone. That's all. That is material. And spiritually they are atmān. Therefore sama-darśinaḥ. From that point of view, from basic point of view. Not that he is seeing a brāhmaṇa and dog equal. No. Not that. He is seeing the outward and inward. Inward is spirit. That is one. And outward, matter, that is one.
Prabhupāda: Just like America... (laughs) Americans have not even one per cent. They are many thousands times opulent, the demigods. So it is very difficult. Just like here for a very rich man to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult. That is a disquali...
- bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ
- tayāpahṛta-cetasām
- vyavasāyātmikā-buddhiḥ
- samādhau na dhigacchati
- (BG 2.44)
(Hindi) Voluntarily sannyāsa. All big, big kings in India, voluntarily: "Eh! Give it! Kick it out!" Mahārāja Bhārata, at the age of twenty-four years, he left everything, young wife, children, kingdom, whole world—gave it up. This is Indian culture, vairāgya. Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, (Hindi) as soon as the grandson, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, was major: "Take it. We are going." That is the fact. (Hindi) Even Mahatma (Gandhi). He declared himself mahātmā. He is such a mahātmā that unless he was killed by Goli(?), he was not leaving anything. He was not prepared. This is mahātmā, Kali-yūga ka mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso (BG 9.13). (Hindi) ...politics, politics, politics. (Hindi) ...nonviolence theory. Kṛṣṇa said, "You will die by violence. Nonviolence, there cannot be nonviolence. You wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā and criticize Me, Kṛṣṇa. All right, you die." Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Jayapataka: (break) Why did Kṛṣṇa have all the demigod worship put in the Vedas?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayapataka: They put... Vyāsadeva put all the demigod worship in the Vedas.
Prabhupāda: For the karmīs. Kṣipra bhavati... What is that? Kam kanta...
Jayapataka: Karmanaṁ siddhi.
Prabhupāda: Karmānaṁ siddhi yajanti iha devatā. Who is interested to take bhakti immediately? Nobody is interested.
Jayapataka: They can get their material facilities from Kṛṣṇa also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is recommended. First of all śāstra recommends that if you want this thing you worship this deity, this deity. In this way, at last it is said that you can get anything if you worship Kṛṣṇa. That is said. Akāmaḥ sarvo kāma v mokṣa kāma udara dhī tivreṇa bhakti-yogena. That is for the purpose that if he wants to take advantage, material benefit from Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa bhajana will be there, gradually they will forget this material benefit. They will become pure devotee. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja became. Svamin kṛtārtho 'smi vara na yace.
| Page Title: | Demigods (Conv. 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 25 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=169, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 169 |