If you want to go back to home, back to Godhead, then Kṛṣṇa is ready to give you all instruction. "Yes, yena mām upayānti te." He gives instruction, "Yes, you do like this. Then you will finished, your, this material business, and after giving up this body, you'll come to Me." But if you want to continue this material existence, then vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22), you have to accept one body; and when it is no more usable, then you have to give up this body and accept another body. This is continuation of material existence. But if you want to end it, if you are actually disgusted with this kind of business, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19), take birth once, again die, again take. But we are so shameless and so rubbish that we are not very much disgusted with this business.
Continuation (Lectures)
Lectures
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures
If you are unable to liquidate, then you will be a sinner. But you can save yourself from the reaction of all sins if you surrender unto the Supreme Lord. Sarvātmanā yaḥ śaraṇaṁ śaraṇyaṁ gato mukundaṁ parihṛtya kartam. You have got some duties, but if you give up all your duties and simply surrender unto the Supreme Lord, then you are liquidated at once. This is the version of Bhāgavata and this is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā by the Supreme Personality of Godhead Śrī Kṛṣṇa, that "If you surrender unto Me, giving up all your other obligation, then I shall give you all protection." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). Now, if I am protected from the reaction of my sinful acts, but it does not mean that I shall surrender unto the Supreme Lord at the same time continue to act sinfully, no, not that. Or if I am obliged to continue, the God, or the Supreme Lord will protect me. That is the version. Therefore everyone should act yajña. Yajña means work to satisfy the Supreme Lord. That is called yajña. If we do not do that, then we shall be obliged. Otherwise... "Otherwise" means the act which is done for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord, that is immune from all reaction, but anything which is not done for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord, that will oblige me in so many bondage of obligation, and I will have to repay that after many, many continuation of this repetition of births and deaths. That is the secret of life.
In this way we are becoming implicated. By the so-called advancement of civilization, we are becoming implicated to these material activities and we are forgetting our real business, self-realization, what I am. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The real business is to enquire about Brahman, about ātmā, Paramātmā, but we are forgetting that. We are simply busy for the temporary life, say, for fifty years or hundred years, utmost. But we do not know the life is continuation. As the life is continued we have got experience—from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, then in old body, then what is next? You ask anybody who has become old man. Ask him, "Sir, you have come to this stage. Your body is now old. You have to die. Now, from childhood you came to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, then middle age, and now you have come to... Now what is next? Do you know?" Oh, they will be silent. Nobody knows that what is my next life. A child can say, "My next life is boy. I shall become a boy." The boy can say, "Yes, I will be like very nice young man." The young man can say that "I shall become middle-aged man, father of many children." And the middle-aged man can say, "Yes, I will become old man." And ask the old man what he will become? He cannot answer. Can anyone say?
But there is next life. This body is now old enough. It will be finished. Everyone knows. "As sure as death." Then after finishing the body, what will be your next body? Who will answer this? Where is the scientist? Where is the philosopher? Where is the learned man? Nobody knows. Nobody knows. Therefore he is blind.
Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures
So tasmāt. Tasmāt, "therefore." It is continuation of the last verse. What was the last verse?
- ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
- varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ
- svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
- saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
- (SB 1.2.13)
Everyone should know how to become perfect. That education is not there. They do not know what is perfection. They do not know that "I am eternal. My struggle for existence is for perfection of life, to come to my original position, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so that I may regain again my eternal, blissful life of knowledge." That is the aim.
So it is required therefore that the social system should be organized in such a way that automatically people become interested in the ultimate goal of life. That is civilization. This is not civilization, simply animal propensities: eat voraciously and sleep twenty hours and have sex life without any restriction and have atom bomb for the defense. That's all, finished, civilization. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat. These things are there in the animals. Just like goats. We have seen goats eating twenty-four hours. Not only goats, they..., all other animals. Even if he is strong animal. That, they are... I told you. Na hi suptasya siṁhasya praviśanti mukhe mṛgāḥ. Suptasya, sleeping lion. Lion is very powerful; he is given the honor of becoming the king of the animals. But still, he has to work for eating. It is not that because he is lion he will be sleeping, and some animal will come and enter into his mouth. No. That is not possible. He has to work.
So, in continuation of the Pāṇḍavas' position in relationship with Droṇācārya, the guru, so many things are being explained by Draupadī. So she is not ordinary woman. She knows everything of the religious principles, and therefore she is teaching the assembly of respectable, learned persons how the spiritual master should be respected. Droṇa is also, I mean to say, qualified as bhagavān. Bhagavān Droṇa. Anyone who is extraordinarily powerful, he is addressed sometimes as bhagavān. Nārada Muni is also sometimes addressed as bhagavān. Lord Śiva is also sometimes addressed as bhagavān. We have explained the different features of bhagavān many times. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). So the Supreme Bhagavān is Kṛṣṇa. Nānyat paratara... Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). There may be so many bhagavāns, but the absolute bhagavān is Kṛṣṇa. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya. Not samagra, but the Supreme Personality, He is samagra. The others, they have got to certain extent the qualities of bhagavān. In that sense they can be addressed as bhagavān. But they are not samagra. Samagra is, samagra means the complete. That is only attributed to Kṛṣṇa. Nobody else.
So if one can give up this attachment from very beginning of life, that is brahmacārī. A brahmacārī is trained that "Don't be attached. You will save so much time and save your life." That is brahmacārī life. Because this attachment is the continuation of our material life. We have got different attachment, different varieties of attachment. The central point is sex. Therefore school, college means that to train the students how to become detached. That is the school, college. That is brahmacārī system. A brahmacārī should live under the guidance of the spiritual master as menial servant, and whatever he collects, he would give to the spiritual master. If the spiritual master says, "Now you can eat," then he will eat; otherwise he will starve. He will not take the things of spiritual master by his own hand. First of all... No. This is the austerity of brahmacārī. And no meeting with young girls. Even the wife of the spiritual master is young, the brahmacārī is not allowed to go there. There are so many. These are described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa.
But these things are not now possible. Everything is topsy-turvied. There is no regular training of the human being. They are being trained up like cats' and dogs' life. Cats and dogs, they don't require training. Because what is the modern civilization? Eating, sleeping, sex life, and dying. It does not require any education. Just like these children. When I distribute these cookies, it does not require... Immediately spreads the hand and immediately in the mouth. (laughter) So for eating, there is no necessity of training. Everyone knows. Similarly, sleeping also, everyone knows. And similarly sex intercourse everyone knows. And dying there is no question. (laughter) So where is the education? Where is the necessity of education for these things? Rascals. You are enhancing advancement of knowledge how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life, and how to die.
Therefore one who is actual Kṛṣṇa conscious, paṇḍita, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ... (BG 5.18). Paṇḍitāḥ, he does not see the outward dress; he sees the living entity encased in this particular type of body. So he has no concern with the body. Therefore a sādhu always thinks of everyone's benefit. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī, Sanātana Gosvāmī. Of the Gosvāmīs it is said, lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau. Because they were benefactor for all kinds of living entity, therefore they were honored tri-bhuvane, in three worlds. Tri-bhuvane. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau. Nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau. A sādhu's business is for the benefit of all living entities. A sādhu does not like to cut even a tree, because he knows, "Here is a living entity. He is standing here for many years by his karma, and he has to continue this for many years more. So he cannot avoid this because it is nature's law." Just like if you are put into prison for six months, nobody can save you, nobody can make you less, one day less than six months. So we get our particular type of body, we have to remain in that body for a certain period by the laws of nature. So by cutting the body—the living entity does not die—but because we check the continuation of his period, therefore we become sinful. You cannot cut even a tree without Kṛṣṇa's purpose. Without Kṛṣṇa's purpose we cannot kill even an ant, we cannot cut even a tree, then we shall be liable to punishment.
Pradyumna: This is a continuation of the previous verse. It said that...
Prabhupāda: I have a question now. You are maintaining your institution by the grace of the householders. You are begging. So how you can condemn householders? If the householders do not become your life members, your institution will be stopped. So how do you condemn the householders?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Isn't it the original Vedic process that the householders would willfully give their charity to the brāhmaṇas?
Prabhupāda: So therefore, for charity householders required. You cannot condemn householders.
Akṣayānanda: We do not condemn the householders, though. All of Lord Caitanya's, many of His followers were householders, and He encouraged them to progress in devotional life. Kṛṣṇa says, dharmāviruddho bhūteṣu, "I am householder life within the religious principles." In that way, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is for everyone. It is not restricted to sannyāsīs or brahmacārīs or persons who are celibate, but to all persons who follow the principles that are set down in Bhagavad-gītā and the śāstras.
Prabhupāda: My point is that śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ, apaśyatām ātma-tattvam (SB 2.1.2). Householder is not bad. That is not condemned. Real thing condemned: apaśyatām ātma-tattvam (SB 2.1.2). That is condemned. Because they do not know what is the aim of life. That is missing. All these people... Ask anybody, that "What is the aim of your life?" Nobody... Nobody will be able to say. Any householder, any businessman, ask. They will simply say that "It is my duty to earn money. It is my duty to maintain my children, to give them education, to give them good opportunity for prospective life. And if I have got little more money, then I can give in charity to the poor man, daridra-nārāyaṇa. And..." These are their program. But nobody knows the necessity of, I mean to say, liberating the soul which is conditioned by this material covering. Nobody knows. That you will find. Nobody knows. Big, big professors, big, big... They simply say that "Yes ..." If you ask, "Why you are constructing some big, big scheme?" "Oh, for the future generations. That's all." They will reply. Nobody will reply, nobody knows about the necessity of the soul. That is the important point. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam (SB 2.1.2).
What is the necessity of purifying my existence? Yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed yasmāt... If you purify your existence, then yasmād brahma-saukhyam (SB 5.5.1), you'll relish unlimited pleasure. You are after now temporary pleasure by sense gratification, but in this life, in this human form of life, if you control your sense gratification and utilize the time for self-realization, so as soon as you are self-realized man or Brahman realized man then your happiness is unlimited. You are after happiness. Your sense gratification means you are after happiness, but this happiness is temporary. Any material happiness, it has no continuity. It has got limit. But if you want... But my desire is to have unlimited happiness, unlimited life, unlimited knowledge. If you want that, so try this life, this human form of life. Don't waste it simply after sense gratification, but practice austerity. Minimize your sense gratification. Be satisfied whatever is offered by nature or by God. We don't... Not complete abstinence, but regulate it, and the balance time utilized for self-realization. Then your perfection will be there by which you'll live eternally. You will enjoy eternally and your knowledge will be unlimited.
So Ṛṣabhadeva instructed in this way. It is very instructive chapter. If you continue to understand this instruction of Ṛṣabhadeva... Now we have only read one verse. The next verse is that mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ (SB 5.5.2). Mahat-sevā. If you want this platform of self-realization, or spiritual life, then your engagement should be mahat-sevā, to serve a great soul, to associate with great soul. Then that will be possible. We shall discuss this next śloka. Mahat-sevā. Who is mahat, who is great soul, how to serve, everything we shall discuss next meeting.
In continuation of the last verse I recited day before yesterday, the second verse is suggesting how one can be liberated from this material bondage. In the first verse it was suggested that this human form of life is not meant for wasting uselessly like the animals, dogs and hogs. It should be properly utilized. The suggestion was tapa, tapasya. Tapasya means austerity, voluntarily accepting some inconvenience. This is called tapasya. Tapa, one meaning is "disturbances." Suppose I am practiced to some habit. If I am advised to give it up, it becomes little troublesome. For example, if I am habituated to smoke and somebody or higher authority says, "Don't smoke," to give up smoking is little difficult, those who are habituated to smoke. Similarly... But according to the doctor's advice if somebody has to give up smoking, he has to. Otherwise his disease may not be cured.
Similarly, our, this present position, tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). We are constantly, repeatedly changing body, transmigration of the soul. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). That means we are accepting death. Death means change of the, final change of the body. When this body is no more useful to continue, then by nature another body is offered. At the time of death, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram, sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ (BG 8.6)—we create a mental situation. We have got two kinds of bodies—subtle body and gross body.
So dharma and adharma, these two things, are there. You serve either of them. But the result—according to your service. If you are serving as high-court judge, that salary, and if you serving as ordinary, what is called, washer of dishes, that salary cannot be equal. You cannot expect, becoming a dishwasher, to draw the same salary as the high-court judge is drawing. That is not possible. Therefore it is said, sa eva tat-phalaṁ bhuṅkte. You get... You can become high-court judge. There is no, I mean to say, obstacle. You could be qualified like the high-court judge. Now you are qualified like this, so you have to accept this. Therefore it is said, sa eva tat-phalaṁ bhuṅkte tathā tāvat amutra vai. Amutra. So our life is continuity, eternal. Just like a boy takes education, expecting to become one day high-court judge. But one who has not taken education—he simply played in the street—how he can become a high-court judge? It is not possible. Therefore it is said, sa eva tat-phalaṁ bhuṅkte tathā tāvat amutra, "in future life." But these rascals, they do not know what is future life. This is modern civilization. They are so rascal. But there is future life. So in this life, if you prepare yourself for the next life, then you are intelligent. If you remain irresponsible rascal, do not know what is going to happen next life, then you will have to suffer. That we must know. How I shall know? What I shall prepare for, and where shall I go? That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). If you act in goodness, then you will be promoted to the higher planetary system, devān, where demigods live. They have ten thousand years of life, very high standard of life. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ. And if you are attached to pitṛ-loka, you can go there. Bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni. And if you are materially attracted, then you will remain in this material... Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām: "If you My become devotee, you'll come to Me." Now it is your choice. Make your choice, what you want.
This is our position. This is our advancement of science, that we do not know "What I was before this life and what I shall become after this life?" Life is continuation. That is spiritual knowledge. But they do not know also even that life is continuation. They think, "By chance, I have got this life, and it will be finished after death. There is no question of past, present or future. Let us enjoy." This is called ignorance, tamasā, irresponsible life.
So ajñaḥ. Ajñaḥ means one who has no knowledge. And who has no knowledge? Now, tamasā. Those who are in the modes of ignorance. There are three kinds of material nature, modes: sattva, raja, tamas. Sattva-guṇa means everything is clear, prakāśa. Just like now the sky is covered with cloud; the sunshine is not clear. But above the cloud there is sunshine, everything clear. And within the cloud there is not clear. Similarly, those who are in the sattva-guṇa, for them everything is clear, and those who are in the tamo-guṇa, everything is ignorance, and those who are mixed up, neither rajo-guṇa, neither tamo-guṇa, via media, they are called rajo-guṇa. Three guṇas. Tamasā. So they are simply interested in the present body, does not care what is going to happen, and has no knowledge what he was before. There is another place it is described: nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Pramattaḥ, just like madman. He does not know why he has become mad. He forgets. And by his activities, what is going to happen next, he does not know. Madman.
This is perfection. Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up all these nonsense engagement. Simply surrender unto Me, and I shall give you relief." Our continuation of material life means full of sinful activities. We act some way, and we get a similar body. And again the life continues and again we get another body, another body, another body. But in the human form of body, you can get the highest perfection, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and that will stop your continuation of this material life. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhāni indriyāṇi karṣati.
- mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ
- jīva-loke sanātanaḥ
- manaḥ-ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi
- prakṛti-sthāni karṣati
- (BG 15.7)
- By mental concoction and sense gratification he is continuing this material existence.
So every man, the same instruction is there, that this human form of life is only meant for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But the rascals, they will not hear. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu: "My Lord Hari, I have simply wasted my time." Actually, if one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is simply wasting his valuable time. Hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu. How? Manuṣya-janama pāiyā rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. The same thing as Prahlāda Mahārāja says. This is called mahājana. The one mahājana is speaking something, another mahājana will say something else—that is not mahājana. Mahājana means evaṁ paramparā prāptam (BG 4.2). What Prahlāda Mahārāja said millions of years ago, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is saying the same thing. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam, and the same thing is being repeated by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura: hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu. (aside:) Why they are going there with children? So this is called paramparā prāptam. (aside:) Nobody should go within with children.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
So because we are part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, we have also ānanda-mātram, simply blissful body we have got. That is called spiritual body. But because we have become mad, we have identified that this material body as "I am." Therefore And material body means sense gratification. There is no other alternative. To enjoy this material body means to gratify the senses.
So this sense gratification means, as it is said by Ṛṣabhādeva, na sādhu manye. "I do not think it is very good." Why? Yata asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). If you act irresponsibly, without understanding yourself that you are not this material body, but you are spiritual body, then the result will be continuation of this material body one after another. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. Therefore we are all abodha-jātaḥ, born ignorant. Because from the very beginning of our life we know that "I am this body." There is no education in the material world that we are not this body, we are soul. Although there are books of knowledge, just like Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, but nobody is interested. Therefore they are all mad. They are after the will-o'-the wisp, phantasmagoria, a wrong conception of life. Therefore all their activities are to be considered as defeat. Parābhavas, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. They are born ignorant, and they will continue to be ignorant, and they will be defeated by all their activities. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So long he is not awakened to inquire "What I am...?" Simply under madness he is going after this bodily sense enjoyment, but he does not know that he is not this body. Therefore all his activities under this wrong conception of life are to be considered as defeat of his human mission of life. Yes. Just like the Supreme Lord is ānanda-mātram: simply ānanda, bliss, transcendental bliss.
Sri Isopanisad Lectures
Therefore Bhāgavata says, parābhavas tāvad abhodha-jātaḥ. Abodha-jātaḥ. Abodha-jāta means every living entity is born fools. Therefore there are so many educational institutions. If the man born... May be in very high family or in high nation, but he is a fool. Otherwise, what is the necessity of so many educational institution? It is a fact. So that foolishness, when it is come to light... That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. This foolishness will continue so long as he does not come to the platform of understanding self-realization. Otherwise, all these universities and institution for imparting knowledge, they are continuation of that same ignorance and foolishness. Unless one comes to the point of understanding, "What I am, what is God, what is this world, what is my relationship...?" Unless these questions come into one's heart, and there is no proper answer, he continues to be foolish like animal, and he is subjected to different species of life, transmigration from one body to another. This is ignorance.
So this is a very risky civilization. I may feel very comfortable that "I am a spiritual master," or you may think very comfortable, "I am born of a very rich nation, American," but this status of my life is temporary. I will have to change. I'll have to change. So if I do not change for the better, then my life is very risky. Suppose a healthy man, if he is in the society of contamination, is it not his life is very risky? He may be contaminated and infected by disease any moment. So this ignorance should be dissipated. Here it is said that such a devotee can properly discharge his duty of human life. Those who do not do so are eating only sins. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpaṁ ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). Anyone who is cooking for himself... The difference of cooking here in this temple and in ordinary house is that in ordinary house they're cooking sins.
General Lectures
As soon as we become inquisitive that "I do not want all these miserable condition of life. Why they are enforced...?" They are trying to solve these problems by so-called scientific research or so-called philosophical research, but actually the solution is to reform or to purify your consciousness. If you purify your consciousness, as by impure consciousness we are transmigrating from... Now this time, you may be very happy that you have got a very nice body, American body, or you are enjoying life. But do you know what is the next life? That you do not know. Either you do not believe in the next life or you do not know. But you should know that life is continuity. This platform is a flash only. Why there are so many species of life if it is not a flash? You are changing. So these questions are there.
So this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is the movement for purifying consciousness. If you take to this movement, it is very simple. Just like our president, Brahmānanda, explained to you, that it is simply sixteen words: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Simply to chant these sixteen words. We are simply requesting you to chant these sixteen words. There is no loss on your part, but there is immense gain. Why don't you make an experiment? It is not very difficult. These American boys, they are also chanting. Similarly, although it is written in Sanskrit words symbolically, but it is vibration. It is transcendental vibration. If you take to this vibration, then we become directly in touch with the Supreme Lord. That makes us purified. Just like if you go to the fire you become warm, similarly, if you be directly in touch with the Supreme Spirit, then our purification begins. So if you take to this movement, if you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, then this impure consciousness will be purified and you will know what you are.
Therefore we have to change this formula. If you simply waste our time like the hogs—eating, sleeping, sex-life and defense—then that is not human life.
Human life is meant for tapasya. That is not possible by the hogs and dogs. Tapasya, austerities. By austerities, by tapasya we can purify our existence. You are existing at the present moment because we are changing body, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralī... Therefore it is polluted existence. This is not pure existence. Pure existence is eternal life, blissfulness and knowledge, full of knowledge. That is pure life. So the human life is meant for purifying our existence. Stop this continuation of birth, death, old age and disease and live eternally blissful life of knowledge. That is the business of human life. But people do not take this fact very seriously. They have become so dull-headed. Now there is freedom from this continuation of birth, death, old age and disease, they cannot believe it. They cannot consider it. They think, "Ah, it is going on." So the modern civilization is quite different from the Vedic civilization. Vedic civilization means to make a solution of this problem: stop this process of birth, death, old age and disease. That is Vedic civilization. That is human civilization. And to become better hog, nicely dressed hog, that is not Vedic civilization. That is hog civilization.
So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save people from the hog civilization or dog civilization to human civilization. That is... Human civilization means plain living and advancing in spiritual consciousness, not to increase unnecessarily artificial way of life. But we should know what is the aim of life and try to actually (achieve) success in the aim of life in any condition. That is Vedic civilization. Any condition. Any condition means in the material world we find that somebody is well situated and somebody... We think like that. Nobody is well situated. But we think like that. So if we want to cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in any material condition we can do that.
Philosophy Discussions
Śyāmasundara: He says that everything goes by steps in nature, and not by leaps. In other words, there is a law of continuity, like there are no gaps in nature. Everything is gradual. There is a gradual differentiation.
Prabhupāda: No. There are two ways-gradual and immediate also. Of course, in one sense... (break) ...little force, it goes quickly. The ball has no power. So wonderful things are happening in the material nature due to the will of the Supreme. Everything happening is the same process; it is undergoing the process, but the method, pushed by God, it takes automatically. Just like He created this material nature. It is in the beginning nonmanifest, then gradually it grows three qualities, and by the interaction of qualities so many things come out—the sky comes, and as soon as the sky comes out, there is sound; sound comes, as soon as sound has come out, the ear comes; the controller of the ear comes..., so many things—one after another, one after another, one after another. So the pushing is so perfect that all other things come automatically in perfect order. But foolish people, they are thinking that things are coming automatically out of it, without any background. They don't think there is God. They think that nature, there was a chunk, and the creation was there. And wherefrom the chunk came? That is imperfect observation. Perfect knowledge is you take Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ: (BG 9.10) "under My superintendence." And that is our practical experience. When I manufacture this table, the raw materials, matter, is there, but it has not automatically become table. I have made it by instrument, by my brain. Similarly, this cosmic manifestation has not come out automatically; it is the brain of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He is the creator. That is nature. Nature is instrumental. Just like the potter: his wheel is going around and the clay is making a pot, but the original cause is the potter.
Prabhupāda: Our explanation is that from previous life he is modeled. That is coming. It's continuation.
Śyāmasundara: So Darwin said that also, that one's superior traits are passed on to his children, like that. And then the superior traits survive over the inferior traits, and so on.
Prabhupāda: And where he goes? After transferring to the children, where Mr. Darwin goes?
Śyāmasundara: He disintegrates into matter.
Karandhara: It's total materialism because there's no spirit, just a combination of material elements.
Prabhupāda: Then if you are going again to be mixed with the elements, then why you are bothering your head about your children?
Śyāmasundara: He's concerned on a social level...
Prabhupāda: In the beginning, in the beginning you are in the matter. By evolution you have come to, again you are going to the matter. So why you bother in the middle so much. After all, you are matter. In the beginning you are matter and at the end you're going to be matter.
Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of Bergson.
Prabhupāda: Now, the Māyāvādī philosophers, they, possessing poor fund of knowledge, they want to kill this individuality. But that is not possible. Kṛṣṇa says that you shall remain individual perpetually. There is no question of stopping. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta jīva-loka sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7). They, perpetually you are individual, God is also individual. So to..., killing the individuality is not possible, but this is a false notion that "I kill my individuality and become one with God, then I will be perfect." That is not possible. You cannot become one with God. You keep your individuality. So even though if for the time being you think that "I am now merged in the existence of God," but on account of our individuality you shall again fall down.
Hayagrīva: And there's no need for a search for individuality.
Prabhupāda: Individual, he is always individual. Perpetually.
Hayagrīva: Yes. Concerning the creation, Bergson speaks of impulsion and attraction, and he says, "The causal relation between God and the world is seen as an attraction when regarded from below, as an impulsion or a contact when regarded from above. Therefore we perceive God as an efficient, that is a beginning, cause or as a final cause, according to the point of view." That is, we can see things either..., the creation coming from God or moving toward God, depending on our viewpoint.
Prabhupāda: No. Creation is..., God is always there. Before the creation and when the creation is finished, there is God. So God is not one of the creation. In the creation there are so many things coming out, so God is not one of the products of creation because He is created. He was before creation and He will exist to continue after annihilation. This is the Vedic knowledge.
Hayagrīva: He gives and example that's something similar to the Vedic. He speaks of "a center from which worlds shoot out like rockets in a fireworks display, provided, however, that I do not present this center as a thing but as a continuity of shooting out. God thus defined has nothing of the already made. He, that is God, is unceasing life, action, and freedom."
Prabhupāda: It is just like a wheel. A wheel is rotating. There are spokes, there are rims, there is a hub, and in the center, what is they call that, that supports the hub?
Hayagrīva: Axle.
Prabhupāda: Spindle, axle, axle. So He is the axle. So the round is going on, but He is the center. Everything is going on but He is the center. Aham ādir hi..., what is called? Devānām. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). So the central point is God, and other things are just like a big wheel, and the big wheel has got so many parts. The, it has got the rim, it has got the spokes, it is going in force, but the axle is the same, always in the center.
Hayagrīva: Now this is the last point, and I want to just for the record to correct this on Śyāmasundara's presentation because you took exception to this, and I believe that it was..., you wouldn't take exception to it. I don't know. It says Bergson refers to the "essential function of the universe as being that of a machine for the making of gods."
Prabhupāda: That is his misconception. That I have explained, the wheel. The wheel is going on. The wheel has got different parts but it is resting on the axle.
Hayagrīva: No, but is the universe a machine for the making of gods in the sense that it's a vehicle to make people Kṛṣṇa conscious?
Prabhupāda: No, this is wrong. The machine, the wheel is already depending on the axle. Axle is already there. Without axle, the wheel cannot move.
Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of Mill. He writes, "Limited as, on this showing, the Divine power must be, by inscrutable and insurmountable obstacles due to the existence of evil." Mill concludes that the existence of evil in the universe, or what he considers to be evil, pain and death, excludes the existence of an omnipotent God. He sees man in a position to aid the intentions of providence by surmounting his evil instincts. So God is not all-powerful, infinite in His power. If He were, there would be no evil, according to Mill.
Prabhupāda: No. God, evil is created by God undoubtedly, but the, it was necessary on account of the human being as, misuse of his free will. God gives him good direction but when he is disobedient, then naturally the evil power is there to punish him. Therefore the evil is not created by God but still it is created. It is necessary. Just like the government constructs the prison house. So this prison house creation is not the government's intention. Government wants that university is sufficient, people may be educated and highly enlightened, but because some, not all, misuses the independence, little independence, he creates evil circumstances, and he is compulsorily put into the prison house. Similarly, we suffer on account of our own evil activities but God, being Supreme, He punishes us for our evil activities. For God there isn't... When we are under the protection of God, there is nothing evil, only good thing. There is no evil. So God does not create evil but man's evil activities obliges God to create an evil situation.
Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of William James.
Prabhupāda: So to carry the orders of God is religion. So the more this fact is realized, that is perfection of religion, and dharma, religion, is perfect when he understands who is God and how to learn to love Him.
- sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
- yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
- ahaituky apratihatā
- yenātmā samprasīdati
- (SB 1.2.6)
When we actually understand God and try to please Him, serve Him, that is really religious life and perfection of life.
Hayagrīva: James gave the following estimation of impersonalism and Buddhism. He wrote, "There are systems of thought which the world usually calls religious and yet which do not positively assume a God. Buddhism is in this case. Popularly, of course, the Buddha himself stands in place of a God, but in strictness, the Buddhistic system is atheistic."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Lord Buddha appeared at a time when people became atheistic, and especially they began to kill animals in the sacrifice in large quantity. So God, Lord Buddha, appeared, being sympathetic to the poor animals. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. He was very, very much aggrieved to see the poor animals are being killed unnecessarily. So he preached the religion of nonviolence, and because the people became atheist, so Lord Buddha, just to take them under his control, he also collaborated and said, "Yes, there is no God, but you hear me." But he is incarnation of God, so it is a kind of transcendental cheating that in the beginning he said there is no God, but he is God himself, and people accepted his words or instruction. That is Buddhism. So this very word is used, sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Sura-dviṣām, atheist class of men, are always against theist class of men. Therefore their name is that atheist means who are envious of devotees. So in order to cheat these persons who are envious of God or devotee, Lord Buddha appeared and established a system of religion on the platform of nonviolence—no more animal killing. Because those who are animal killers, they cannot understand God (indistinct). That is not possible. They may have some vague idea. So Lord Buddha wanted to stop these sinful activities, and he established the system of nonviolence.
Hayagrīva: His second characteristic of a sādhu is thus: "He has a sense of the friendly continuity of the ideal power with our own life in a willing self-surrender to its control."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the ideal. Kṛṣṇera saṁsāra kara chāḍi' anācāra. We are member of the same family. God is the supreme father. That is ideal society. What does he say further?
Hayagrīva: The uh... What?
Prabhupāda: Second point.
Hayagrīva: Oh, the second point again? "A sense of the friendly continuity."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Friendly continuity means the, there are so many relationship, five relationship. First relationship is the master and the servant, and then friend to friend, then son and father, and then beloved and the lover. So these are all friendly relationship. We can, when we are actually in God relationship, we have got natural instinct to accept any one of them. So our friendly relationship with God can be chosen. Somebody likes sometime as friend to friend, father and son, or beloved and the lover, master and the servant, and the Supreme and the subordinate. They are five relationship. Any one of them, when we are actually liberated, free from material contamination, we being eternal part and parcel of God, the particular relationship is revived. That is called svarūpa-siddhi, revival of our original relationship with God.
Hayagrīva: As an example of suicide, he gives the..., he says that at the procession of Jagannātha in 1840, eleven Hindus threw themselves under the wheels and were instantly killed. And he also mentions the satī rituals of the woman throwing herself into the sacrificial fire, the fire of her husband's funeral pyre.
Prabhupāda: This is not suicide. This is... Our life is continuation, but on account of impure understanding we are getting different types of body and you are suffering different varieties of miseries. So this suicidal, this is not suicidal, that voluntarily accepting death, so that by dying, if he thinks of the spiritual life, he gets it. Just like Kulaśekhara, he has got a poetry that... In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajanty ante: (BG 8.6) we get next life according to the desire at the point of death. So generally, when death takes place, one sometimes remains in coma, all the bodily functions becomes defunct, he dreams in different ways and so on, so on. So he cannot dream or think independently. Therefore sometimes the intelligent class, they think that "If I meet death in sound health, then I can think of my next life, go back to home, back to Godhead, and I achieve it. Because at the time of death my thinking will be taken into consideration. So if by thinking of Jagannātha if I die, then I go back to Jagannātha."
Hayagrīva: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is not suicide. That is voluntarily accepting death so that immediately he can return back to the spiritual world.
Prabhupāda: Ah, labhate paurva-dehikam. That is everything, spiritual and material. Materially also we find sometime when one person is very extraordinary individual. In the class some student picks up very quickly, some student cannot understand. So this is continuation. One is intelligent means he has got some previous revival of his consciousness. So in this way it is going on. That is the proof, immortality of the soul. Otherwise why? Paurva-dehikam, previous birth. This is the proof.
Hayagrīva: There's a lot of sort of interesting points here.
Prabhupāda: Hm. (break)
Hayagrīva: He points out that there's a paradox surrounding death. "On the one hand, from the point of view of the ego," or what we call the false ego, "death is a horrible catastrophe, a fearful piece of brutality. On the other hand, from the point of view of the psyche, the soul, death is a joyful event, in the life of eternity it is a wedding."
Prabhupāda: Yes. In all cases it is eternal, but it is, death is horrible for the person who is going to accept a lower grade of life, and it is pleasure for the devotee, that he is going back to home, back to God. That is the difference.
Hayagrīva: Despite so many interesting points, Jung appears to have a somewhat limited understanding of Indian philosophy. He did not appear to understand that saṁsāra, although it appears to be endless, can be ended if one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, that there is mukti, that saṁsāra can be overcome by surrendering unto Mukunda. He writes, "The succession of birth and death is viewed as an endless continuity, as an eternal wheel rolling on forever without a goal. Man lives and attains knowledge and dies and begins again from the beginning." He says, "Only with the Buddha does the idea of a goal emerge, namely the overcoming of earthly existence."
Prabhupāda: Hm. So overcoming the earthly existence means you enter in the spiritual world, because spirit soul is eternal. So from this atmosphere to another. That is explained clearly in the Bhagavad-gītā, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). After giving up this present body, this is material, so those who continue to, in the cycle of birth and death, they get another material body, but those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they do not get another material body, but he goes to Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference.
Hayagrīva: Kṛṣṇa says that over and over in Bhagavad-gītā. He says it many times.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that, that is for the dviṣataḥ krūrān (BG 16.19), those who are envious of Kṛṣṇa. For them, continuous. And those who are not envious, accepts Kṛṣṇa's instruction, surrenders unto Him and understands Kṛṣṇa, for them this is the last birth, material birth. After this he goes back to home, back to Godhead.
Hayagrīva: ...he writes, "The crucial question is whether a man's karma is personal or not. If it is, then the pre-ordained destiny with which a man enters life represents an achievement of previous lives, and a personal continuity therefore exists. If, however, this is not so, and an impersonal karma is seized upon in the act of birth, then that karma is incarnated again without there being any personal continuity."
Prabhupāda: What is that impersonal karma? Karma is always personal.
Hayagrīva: Karma is always personal.
Prabhupāda: Personal.
Hayagrīva: He points out that Buddha was twice asked by His disciples whether man's karma is personal or not. Each time he fended off the question and did not go into the matter. To know this, he said, would not contribute to liberating oneself.
Prabhupāda: Because he did not, he did not teach about the soul. Therefore, how he could touch that personal?
Hayagrīva: He refused to respond to those questions.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because he did not accept the soul. That as soon as he denied the personal aspect of the soul, how there can be personal karma? So he wanted to avoid this; otherwise his whole philosophy becomes different.
Hayagrīva: This is continuation of Jung. Jung noted that there are five types of rebirths, not he that particularly ascribed to them, but that he noted that in religions that there are five types of rebirth. One is called metempsychosis. He says, "According to this view, one's life is prolonged in time by passing through different bodily existences, or from another point of view it is a life sequence interrupted by different reincarnations. It is by no means certain whether continuity of personality is guaranteed or not. There may only be a continuity of karma." So this is like a transmigration of souls.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the technical name?
Hayagrīva: But... He called, its metempsychosis.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning?
Hayagrīva: It means transmigration of souls...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: ...but through different, passing through different bodily existences.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: The life sequence is interrupted by different reincarnations, but it's not certain whether or not personality survives. There may only continuity of karma.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Personal, personality is there. Suppose a man rebukes a dog. So the dog also responses. Even a small ant, it is going to certain direction, if you check it, it will protest. So personality is there always, either in the body of human being, cats, dogs, even an ant. So the bodily changes do not affect the personality, but one identifies himself according to the body. When a soul is within the, a body of a dog, he thinks in that bodily conception, "I am dog, I have my duty." In the human society also. When one is born in America, he thinks, "I am American, and my duty is like this, my duty is like this, I am..." So this, according to the body the personality manifests, but personality is there.
Hayagrīva: Personality is there certainly, but is it continued? Is there a continuity of personality from the dead body to the new body?
Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly.
Hayagrīva: Well, according to the first theory of rebirth, that's not guaranteed. Now the second theory of rebirth...
Prabhupāda: No. That they do not know. The same soul is, is passing through another gross body with his mental, intellectual identification. He is..., that is nature's gift. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā: kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). As we have infected a certain type of modes of nature, he is getting a similar body, but the person is the same.
Hayagrīva: Now the, this would be the view, the second view, that is reincarnation. "This concept of rebirth necessarily implies the continuity of personality. Here the human personality is regarded as continuous and accessible to memory, so that when one is incarnated or born one is able, at least potentially, to remember that one has lived through previous existences, and that these existences were one's own, namely that he had the same ego form as the present life. As a rule, reincarnation means rebirth in a human body."
Prabhupāda: Not human body. Just, we have got historical references in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. A king, Bhārata Mahārāja, he was king, and in next life he became a deer, and the next life he became a brāhmaṇa. So the soul is continuing, changing. The example is given, just like a man changes his dress. The man is the same; the dress may be different. That is going on. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). This very word is there. Just when the dress is old it cannot be used any more, he has to change another, to another dress. It is very common sense. So now that next dress you have to purchase or you have to prepare according to your money. Your dress is something now; the next dress you will purchase according to your money. So the exact example is very nice—to change the dress. The man is the same, but he exchanges dress, and the dress is supplied according to the price he can pay. This is common sense. So the price means karma. According to karma he has done, he gets a particular type of body.
Prabhupāda: Another continuation is that the child changes body. So as he was acting in his childhood, he does not act in the same way when he has got the different body of a young man, but the same soul is there. It can be understood very easily.
Hayagrīva: The third type of rebirth listed is called resurrection. Now there are two types of resurrection. He says, "It may be a carnal, that is gross, material body, as in the Christian assumption that this body will be resurrected." That is the Christian doctrine, is that at the end of the world the..., somehow or other, through the miracle of God, the gross body will reassemble itself and ascend into heaven or descend into hell. Somehow survival of the gross body. He says, "On a higher level..."
Prabhupāda: And what he will do in the meantime?
Hayagrīva: I don't know what happens...
Devotee: (indistinct)
Hayagrīva: ...what happens to the material elements. The material elements disintegrate, disintegrate...
Prabhupāda: The material body...
Hayagrīva: They're distributed in nature.
Prabhupāda: ...it finishes, but of course this idea can be maintained. In the higher sense, that is not gross body; that is spiritual body. That is applicable to God and special representative of God, not to all. Then that is not material body; that is spiritual body. Means when God appears He appears in His spiritual body. It does not change. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that millions of years ago He spoke to the sun-god, and Arjuna questioned, "How it is to be understood that millions of years ago You spoke it?" So He said that "Yes, I did. You were also present, but you do not remember. I remember." So how it is possible? One who does not change the body, He can remember. Just like when we do not change the body, I can remember, but when we change body we do not remember. This is the principle. So this resurrection, I do not know what the exact meaning, but as to the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, Kṛṣṇa said, sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). He comes in His original body, not covered by material body. Therefore, because He has no material body, there is no change.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual body everyone possesses.
Hayagrīva: The fifth... (break) This is the continuation of Carl Jung. The fifth type of rebirth is called transformation, and this is a form of indirect rebirth. One may use the initiation ceremony of the twice-born, of the brāhmaṇa. In other words, one has to witness or take part in some rite of transformation. This may be a ceremony, and through his presence at the ritual the individual participates in divine grace.
Prabhupāda: That is transfer, transformation of the body into knowledge. Dvija, this word, exact word, is dvija. One birth is by the father and mother, and the next birth is by the spiritual master and Vedic knowledge. That means..., that is also liberation. He understands that he is not this material body. That is spiritual education. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). So birth of knowledge, that is called dvija.
Hayagrīva: Now all of...
Prabhupāda: Uh?
Hayagrīva: All of these preceding quotes were taken from Jung's autobiography.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Hayagrīva: Now the following quotes are taken from a, a much later book, one of the last books he wrote, called The Undiscovered Self. And it's very popular, and in it he discusses religion, in certain ways almost anticipates the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. At the beginning he defines the purpose of religion. He says, "The meaning and purpose of religion lie in the relationship of the individual to God, or to the path of salvation and liberation." And of the first instance he gives Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and the last instance he gives Buddhism. He says, "From this basic fact, that is the relationship of the individual to God, all ethics is derived, which, without the individual's responsibility before God, can be called nothing more than conventional morality."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Morality, as we understand from Bhagavad-gītā, that nobody can approach God without being purified of all sinful reaction. Yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. A person who has finished all sinful activities, and simply standing on the platform of pious activities, they can understand what is God and be engaged in God's service. And another place it is said by Arjuna, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān: (BG 10.12) "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, param brahma." Every living being is Brahman, spiritual, but Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Being; therefore He is paraṁ brahma, and the paraṁ dhāma, and the resort of everything, ultimate resort of everything, and pavitra, purified, there is no material contamination. So, what is this? What does he say in this?
Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of Origen. Origen believed that all the elements that are found in the material body are also found in the spiritual body, which he called the interior man. He says, "God created man not taking the dust of the earth like the second time, but He created him after the image of God," that is initially, "this being after the likeness of God was immaterial, superior to any corporeal hypothesis. There are thus two men in each one of us, as every exterior man has for homonym the interior man. So it is for all His members, and one can say that every member of the exterior man can be found under this name in the interior man." So that for every corresponding sense that we have in the exterior body, there's a corresponding sense in the interior or the spiritual body which exists within.
Prabhupāda: The spirit soul is within this material body, but the spirit soul has no material body originally. There is a spiritual body of the spirit soul eternally existing, and the material body is simply coating of the spiritual body. This material body is considered as coating, shirt-coat. It is cut according to the bodily shape. Just ordinarily we can see the tailor makes the shirt and coat according to the shape of the body. Similarly, these material elements, earth, water, fire, etc., mixed together, becomes like a clay, and it is coated over the spiritual body. The spiritual body has no connection with the material body. So because the spiritual body has got shape, the material body also takes a shape. That is understanding. But material body has nothing to do with the spiritual body. It is simply external coating, or it is a kind of contamination for suffering of the spirit soul. As soon as he is coated with this material contamination, he identifies himself with the coating and he forgets his real, spiritual body. That is called māyā, ignorance, and this ignorance continues so long he is not fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. When one becomes fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he understands that this material body is the external coating; he is different from this material body. That condition, that uncontaminated understanding, is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. The spirit soul is Brahman. He was under the illusion of bodily concept of life—that is called jīva-bhūtaḥ—and when he understands that he is not this body, he is the spirit soul within the body, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ.
Prabhupāda: So this figurative description is there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The body is considered as like city, and the soul is described as the king of the city, and he goes out from different gates. The body has got nine gates. In this way a figurative description in the..., is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. But that city is figuratively taken as this body, and the king of the city is the soul. (break)
Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of Augustine. Augustine writes, "God is not the soul of all things but the maker of all souls." So this doctrine seems to admit of the transcendence of God but not of the eminence of God, at least not as the Paramātmā accompanying the individual soul.
Prabhupāda: He does not accept Paramātmā?
Hayagrīva: It doesn't seem to be. It seems that...
Prabhupāda: Then how God is all-pervading? The Paramātmā conception is there in the Brahma-saṁhitā:
- eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭiṁ
- yac-chaktir asti jagad-aṇḍa-cayā yad-antaḥ aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara...
- (Bs. 5.35)
One part of His feature, eko 'py asau. Racayitum, creation, this creation is done by one plenary portion of His person, the puruṣa-avatāra, the Mahā-Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, in expanding. So, and not only one universe but millions of universes, jagad-aṇḍa-koṭim. And in the Bhagavad-gītā also same thing is confirmed, atha vā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna, ekāṁśena, viṣṭabhya aham, sthito jagat: "By My one plenary portion I expand throughout all the universes, all the living entities. Even within atom I am present." So unless God has got that omnipresence potency everywhere, then how He can be omnipresent? This is one meaning. He is everywhere present by His expansion of His one plenary portion.
Hayagrīva: Continuation of Aquinas. Aquinas felt that the monastic vows of poverty, celibacy and obedience gave one a direct path to God but that they are not meant for the masses of men. He conceived of life as a pilgrimage through the world of the senses, through the world of nature, and to the spiritual world of God's grace. These, when a..., when one enters a monastery he takes a vow of poverty, chastity and obedience, these three vows.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is called tapasya. According to Vedic instruction one must take to the path of tapasya. Tapasya means voluntarily self-denial, sense gratification denial. That is tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya, our austerity begins with brahmacarya, celibacy, no sex life. That is the beginning of tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena vā, controlling the senses, controlling the mind. Then tyāgena, renouncement or giving in charity, whatever you have got, for the service of the Lord, tyāgena; satya-śaucābhyām, by following the path of truthfulness and remaining cleansed; yamena niyamena vā, by practice of mystic yoga. In this way one makes advancement towards spiritual kingdom or spiritual world. But all these can be totally performed simply by engaging oneself in devotional service. That is also stated: kecit kevalayā bhaktyā vāsudeva-parāyaṇāḥ (SB 6.1.15). If one becomes devotee of Lord Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, then simply by executing devotional service he attains the result of austerity, celibacy, and mystic yoga practice, and the result of charity, truthfulness, cleanliness—everything attains simultaneously, without separate effort. Therefore our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading devotional service. By one stroke, the candidate can attain the results of all other processes.
Hayagrīva: This is a continuation of Thomas Aquinas. We've been discussing sacred doctrine, which is the same as scripture. He states that the only author of sacred scripture is God Himself, within whose power is not only to adjust words to their meaning, which even man can do, but also to adjust things themselves. In reading the scripture, one should avoid two mistakes. 1) One should not think that they can be false in any way.
Prabhupāda: False?
Hayagrīva: That there's no falsity.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Hayagrīva: Falsity cannot form the basis of Divine scripture, which has been handed down by the Holy Spirit. That's one mistake one can make in reading scripture. Another, he says, "No one should try to restrict scripture to one meaning to such an extent that other meanings containing some truth and quite possible in relation to the context would be excluded. In fact it belongs to the dignity of Divine scripture to contain many meanings in one text, so that in this way it may be appropriate to the various understandings of men."
Prabhupāda: Meaning is one, but interpreter are different. Just like even in the Bible it is said, "God created the universe." So that is a fact, God created. So unless you interpret in a different way, how you can say that the universe is created by some chunk and this way and that way? So we accept scripture in that sense, without any change; therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. We cannot change the words of God. That is our principle. And interpretation with motive, there are so many interpreter, and that has spoiled the God consciousness of the human society.
Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of the notations on Descartes.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Hayagrīva: Descartes, Rene Descartes, the French... Descartes writes, "The power of forming a good judgment and of distinguishing the true from the false, which is, properly speaking, what is called good sense or reason, is by nature equal in all men. God has given to each of us some light with which to distinguish truth from error." Now in the West this has been called conscience, and Descartes uses the term "reason." Now is this simply a form of mental speculation, or is the...
Prabhupāda: No. Mental speculation should be there. It is not actually speculation but it is reasoning. Just like if we study our own body, whether I am this lump of matter, namely this skin, bone and stool, urine and muscle and blood... If we analyze this body we find practically these things. So the reasoning is that whether combination of these things can give life. So externally we have got all these things. Blood we can get from slaughterhouse, and bone we can collect, or you can manufacture and set up an instrument with these things. Will it be, bring life? So the reasoning is life is different from this lump of matter. That is reasoning. Why...
Hayagrīva: But he...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Hayagrīva: He says reason is by nature equal in all men. Now isn't reasoning power different in different men?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise why it is called "This man is intelligent," other man is called "You are ass." So when, on this reasoning platform, when one comes to the conclusion that the living force within the body is different from this lump of matter, then he is on the human platform. And if he keeps himself that this life means combination of these material things, then he remains an animal. This is the reasoning. Where is the life? You analyze beginning from the breathing up to the urine and stool—where you will find life? That is human reasoning. Human civilization is now advanced in analyzing things in the chemical laboratory. So if we analyze this breathing, it is air. So you replace this air, let life come again. What is this breathing? Breathing is simply exhaling and inhaling some air. So by machine, by electric, what is called, batteries, let it work and it will act accordingly, breathing. But does it mean it will bring life? So they say breathing is stopped; therefore life is stopped. So breathing can be revived, but where is the life? They say the blood has become white. So blood can be colored. So anything of this body, analyze perfectly and bring life; then you say that life is combination of this matter. You cannot bring it; therefore it must be concluded that life is different from this combination of matter. This is reasoning. This is human reasoning. And if you still keep yourself that this body is, it is everything, then you are animal. This is reasoning. That is the verdict of the Vedic..., sa eva go-kharaḥ. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). If one is thinking still that he is this body, he is no better than animal. There is no reasoning. Who can challenge this? Analyze every part of the body. Where is life? Hm? What do you think? Is that reasoning or not?
Hayagrīva: This is a section, a continuation of Pascal, Blaise Pascal. P-A-S-C-A-L. Pascal saw man situated in the universe between two extremes-between the abyss of infinity and the abyss of nothingness. Man has a body like the animals and an intellect like the angels or demigods. As such, he is neither a demigod nor an animal but somewhere between the two. Due to this situation, man is intelligent enough to know that he is in a miserable situation. Nonetheless, he has a great desire to be happy and to rid himself of his misery. Pascal saw that all men complain and suffer regardless of the situation. According to him, man engages in all kinds of hobbies and games and diversions in order to divert himself from his misery. But ultimately nothing really helps. What man once possessed and now has lost is perfect happiness. Pascal believes that the emptiness felt by man can only be filled by God. Isn't..., is this the same as...
Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā.
Hayagrīva: Bhagavad-gītā (laughs).
Prabhupāda: Mūḍhā janmani janmani mām aprāpyaiva (BG 16.20). Because he does not get under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, so life after life he is trying to be happy and he is becoming baffled. He is manufacturing new way of sporting—sometimes diving in the water, sometimes flying in the air. So this sporting, as soon as, according to his desire, God is supplying, "All right, you want to fly, you become a bird. You want to dive in the water, all right, you become a fish, big fish." So God is giving you and trying to see whether giving up all this nonsense plan he comes to God and surrenders unto Him: "Sir, I have, I have tried all my plan; I could not become happy. Now, my Lord, you say that 'You give up all this nonsense business, you surrender unto Me, I will make you happy.' " Then he becomes happy. For this message, God comes. Because this rascal will not do according to the desire of God; therefore God comes personally and teaches him—as Lord Rāmacandra, as Lord Kṛṣṇa, as Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and He, They, He gives the same instruction, that "You surrender unto Me and act according to My instruction; you will be happy." But he will not do that.
Hayagrīva: Continuation of Spinoza. Spinoza considered good and evil to relate only to man. They have no basis in God, who is beyond good and evil.
Prabhupāda: Right. But as everything is God, as Spinoza thinks that his... What is his position of bad? What is his conception?
Hayagrīva: That God is beyond good and...
Prabhupāda: God is beyond, but what is his position of evil? Evil is there, but he said that God has no evil. Then wherefrom the evil comes?
Hayagrīva: Seems inconsistent.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: He writes...
Prabhupāda: We, we say that God... Good and evil, they are also emanation from God. Evil is the back side and good is the front side.
Hayagrīva: He writes, "He who knows himself and knows his affections clearly and distinctly, and that with the accompaniment of the idea of God is joyous, for he knows and loves God. Thus through knowledge of the self one can come to know something of God, and in this way man can be happy and love God." But there is no mention here of service.
Prabhupāda: Love means service. Just like mother loves the child, she gives, she gives service. The father loves the child, she gives the service, he gives the service. So,
- dadāti pratigṛhṇāti
- guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati
- bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva
- ṣaḍ-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam
Love means to give and to accept some gift from the lover, dadāti pratigṛhṇāti, to feed him and to take foodstuff from him, to disclose his mind to him and understand his mind also. These six reciprocation of dealings is love. So love includes service.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when the, a dog, cat, is born it has no eyes, and it searches out the nipples of the mother. So although his eyes are all closed—you have seen the dogs—but because in his previous life as dog he had the experience where to find out the food, so even though it cannot see, it traces out where is the food. That is past experience and that is the proof of the continuation of the soul eternally. Just like I am living in this room and, say, for ten years I am absent from this room, but after ten years when I come here, immediately I remember where is the toilet, where is my sitting place, everything. So that remembrance comes from the last visit. So a living entity is passing through different species of form. That is his material life. So in some previous life, millions of years, when he was a dog, he knew where to find out his food, so immediately in the dog's body again, he remembers. (break)
Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of John Locke. Now you said that from your very birth you knew that Kṛṣṇa was the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now does this mean that from your very birth you were acquainted with the name Kṛṣṇa, or didn't your father have to at least say the word once? Now Locke would argue that the idea of Kṛṣṇa is not an innate idea because it is not universally assented to.
Prabhupāda: Universally...?
Hayagrīva: Universally, not everyone acknowledges that Kṛṣṇa is God, so he would say that idea is not inborn in the mind.
Prabhupāda: No. In the material world they have got different ideas. That undeveloped mind has got different ideas, but developed, what is called, idea or conception, perfect conception is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if one remembers Kṛṣṇa consciousness after his birth, that means he had previously cultivated. There is a verse, you can find out: ataḥ. Find that.
Hayagrīva: He sees God's... (break) Alexander sees God's Deity as being different from others in that it is infinite... (break) This is the continuation of Alexander that was interrupted due to the defective tape. A God..., uh, Alexander considers God's Deity as differing from that of others in being infinite, and he says, "God's body..."
Prabhupāda: This, this, this sense should be explained. Because God is infinite, He has infinite Deities also. That is infiniteness. He is presented as Deity; that is infinitely of varieties. That is infiniteness. Why he is sticking to one Deity? That is his not understanding the meaning of what is infinite. That is explained in the Brahma-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Ananta-rūpam: He has Deity infinitely. That is infinity. Because He is infinite, He has no Deity—that is not real conception. He is infinite and He has got infinite Deity forms.
Hayagrīva: He says, "God's body, being the whole universe of space/time, is the source of the categories but not itself subject to them."
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if God is Deity, He is also not subject to these created living being. That is condemned. When one thinks God's Deity as one of the deities within this material world, he is condemned as mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam: (BG 9.11) "Because I appear just like a human being, the rascals, asses, they think of Me as ordinary human."
Hayagrīva: "...and His soul is His Deity. Since God's body is the whole of space/time, God, in respect of His body, is all-inclusive, and all finites are included in Him, and in their continuous connection as pieces of space/time, and linked by spacial-temporal continuity they are fragments of God's body, though their individuality is not lost in it."
Prabhupāda: This is right. This is right. This experience he has got very good work.
Hayagrīva: "God is an individual being just as man or any other finite is..."
Prabhupāda: And now he is coming to that.
Hayagrīva: "...only that He is infinite."
Prabhupāda: He is, He is person, but He is not a person like us. But sometimes, due to our poor fund of knowledge... That is explained, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). "These rascal, because I am here talking with Arjuna just like a human being, they are thinking that I am also a human being." No. He is infinite, Arjuna is finite. That is explained in the Fourth Chapter also, that "Arjuna, you are doubtful how I can remember that I spoke this philosophy to sun-god some millions of years ago." Naturally a finite man cannot remember how one can remember. "That is the difference between you and Me, that I know everything; you forget. So although you are living being eternal, I am also living being eternal, that is the difference between you and Me."
| Page Title: | Continuation (Lectures) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 28 of Nov, 2010 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=42, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 42 |