Prabhupāda: Catuṣpaṭhī, catuṣpaṭhī means a school where up to the four Vedas are taught. Grammar and religion and everything is taught there. In every village that was system. The brāhmaṇas should keep up a school like that. Students were all almost they were also of the same age. Some of them were fifteen years old, sixteen years old. So students came and saw Lord Caitanya was chanting "Gopī gopī," so they objected. They said, "Oh, why You are chanting 'gopī gopī'? Why should You not chant 'Kṛṣṇa'? 'Hare Kṛṣṇa'?" So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was in His ecstasy because He was... In the beginning, His appearance is in the form of gopī, to love Kṛṣṇa. So He became very much angry, and because they were students, He wanted to chastise them. He took a stick. "You nonsense! What you are speaking? Go away!" So they fled away, but after that they organized. "Oh, how is that? Caitanya, He is... How He has become so big that He wants to beat us?" In this way they practically they were talking ill of Him. So He decided that "If I remain a householder, these people will not honor Me." Because in those days a sannyāsī was honored in the society very much. If a sannyāsī comes to your village or to a householder's house it was very... Still it is going on, although not so widely. But still 80% of the population in India, if they find out a sannyāsī they give all honor. So He decided that "Now I shall become a sannyāsī." So He happened to see Keśava Bhāratī, a sannyāsī of the Śaṅkara sampradāya, and He requested him that "You give Me sannyāsa." So He took sannyāsa from Keśava Bhāratī and He was assisted by Nityānanda, Murāri Gupta, and some other people. So this is His renunciation decision and acceptance of sannyāsa.
Chastisement (Conversations)
Expressions researched:
"chastise"
|"chastised"
|"chastisement"
|"chastisements"
|"chastiser"
|"chastisers"
|"chastises"
|"chastising"
|"chastisment"
|"chastized"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1967 Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Devotee (1): You were talking about Prahlada.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Prahlada Maharaja said. Yes. About this body. It is arrangement, according to different body. Now, these swans, they have left this, defending, they're going away. This is defending only. Yes. And as soon as they're on the water, they think, "Oh, we are safe because these rascals cannot come in the water." (laughter) They are thinking about us "rascals." As we are thinking about them that they are lower animals, so they are also thinking, "These are rascals." Just like some father rebukes a son, the son also thinks of the father as rascal, "Unnecessarily he's chastising me." There is a proverb that as the child grows... (break) ...also thinks that "This boy is a fool; he'll do wrong by..." This is stated. And the child is stated in a different way.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Brahmānanda: Oh, he's so attached.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "She'll go later on. She'll go." So he went back. The father used to..., went back. In this way, several times. Then it was agreed that the girl would go there, father's house, and the father took the girl in the morning, and in the evening Tulasī dāsa went there. (laughs) His wife chastised, "You are so rascal fool that I have come this morning and you have, evening you are here? You have so much attachment for the skin?" Just like husband and wife talking. That struck him very badly, and he immediately left that place and went to... Left home for good. Yes. And that was the initiation that he took up writing about Rāma. That is Tulasī dāsa's life. Just being, I mean to say, hurt by the words of wife, that "I love her,"... Later on he understood, "Yes, she is right.
Satsvarūpa: But still... I've already done that. I've made him, but practically I'm still managing anyway. And I made Murāri manager, but still I'm... I don't spend much time in editing. People are always coming, and I'm running all over the place. I don't edit at all. It makes me sad. I don't...
Prabhupāda: No, no. They must give relief to you. You can give them instruction, but the actual execution should be done... Pradyumna is there. He can also do. But anyone who is expert in management, he should be... Temple management should not be done directly by you. You can give him policy that "You do like this." That's all. Because you have got so many other things to do. Yes. So you create. If there is no expert manager, you create some manager. That is most important thing, to create. To become... (laughs) In our college there was one Mr. Kidd, professor of economics. He was always chastising us. We were student; he was our professor. "Oh, you cannot have independence. You cannot manage it. You cannot manage. You can work just like ass, but if some asses are given under you, you cannot work." He was talking like that. "So don't cry for independence. You are not yet nation." He was talking like that. So actually his experience was nice, that since the Britishers have gone away, the management of Indian government is not nice. They cannot manage. So he was experienced. He told. I sometimes remember that Professor Kidd told me like that. (laughs) So we have to create nice administrator. That is another function, you see? Every department, we shall create assistant, assistant. So that in case he is ill or he is sick, he cannot work, somebody must work for him.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: This attachment increases. The material attachment. The material attachment means "I am this body, and because I have got this body in a particular place, that is my country." And that is going on. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," this bodily... "This is my country. I shall sacrifice everything for my country, society." So in this way the illusion becomes increased. So under this illusion, when he dies he gets another body. That may be a superior body or inferior body according to his karma. So if he gets superior body, then that is also entanglement. Even if he goes to the heavenly planet, that is entanglement. And if he becomes cats and dogs, then his life's lost. A tree. There is every chance. So this science is not known in the world, that how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another and how he's being entrapped in different types of body. This science is unknown. Therefore when Arjuna was speaking from the bodily concept of life that "If I kill my brother, if I kill my grandfather, the other side..." So he was simply thinking on the basis of bodily concept of life. But when it was not solved he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, accepted Him as spiritual master. And when Kṛṣṇa became his spiritual master He chastised him in the beginning. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11), that "You are talking like learned man, but you are a fool number one because you are talking on the bodily concept of life." So this sex life increases the bodily concept of life. Therefore the whole process is to reduce it to nil.
Prabhupāda: And if we repeat that, what is our fault? (laughter) (Hindi) We say Kṛṣṇa says that "He is a rascal who does not surrender to Me." (laughs) Kṛṣṇa has chastised in so many places. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān (BG 16.19). "Those who are envious, like that, I put them in the darkest region of hellish conditions." (laughter) Kṛṣṇa says like that. Another place He says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā: (BG 9.11) "A person who is rascal, he considers Me as ordinary human being." (break) Thank you very much. (indistinct conversation) (laughter) Very good. (laughs) Very nice.
Prabhupāda: Therefore he was taught Bhagavad-gītā. And after understanding Bhagavad-gītā he agreed to Kṛṣṇa's proposal. Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā: (BG 18.73) "Now my illusion is gone. I have got my real consciousness, so I shall fight." So the fighting was Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And when he was trying to become nonviolent, very benevolent to the family, he was chastised by Kṛṣṇa. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādām: (BG 2.11) "You are talking like a very learned man but you are fool." So this is our position. We may talk very learned, scholarly, but if we have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we are subjected to the chastisement. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11). So this is the position. So nothing is bad if it is engaged for the service of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, however good it may be in the estimation of material conception, it is the cause of bondage, good or bad. It doesn't matter. So you have to learn the art, how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That art you have to learn. Then your life is perfect.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Dr. Hauser: Yes, we are attached to them also because they have power over us. They can persecute us and they can... So it's very...
Prabhupāda: No, the greater power is Kṛṣṇa. If you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, they cannot do anything. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, he was a five years old boy. He took shelter of Kṛṣṇa and his father was a great demon, very powerful. He wanted to chastise his boy. He could not. This is the proof. So you take shelter. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pape... (BG 18.66). "I give you protection." So people have no faith although He's God. He thinks God is less powerful than Hitler. That is his nonsense. If he takes actually shelter of Kṛṣṇa, what this rascal, Hitler, can do? But he has no faith in God. He thinks Prabhu Hitler is greater than Lord. Prabhu Hitler. That is the difference between the crows and the swans. The crows think that we have got food in the garbage. And the swans think that we have got food in nice garden, in the clear water. And that is difference even in the birds kingdom. That is explained in the previous verse. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo, jagat-pavitraṁ pragṛṇīta karhicit, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham (SB 1.5.10). Read that, previous to this verse.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Svāmī.
Yaśomatīnandana: Lord Caitanya chastised him?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Karandhara: An unchaste wife who abandons a swami.
Prabhupāda: He referred to Śrīdhara Svāmī. So swami means husband. So He sarcastically remarked, "Anyone who does not accept swami, she is prostitute."
Yaśomatīnandana: Is Vallabhācārya, Prabhupāda, in accordance with our philosophy?
Prabhupāda: Yes, he's Vaiṣṇava, ācārya. But that very deviation, that "I have done something better than Śrīdhara," that is not our paramparā system. Then he was thinking himself better than Śrīdhara. That is not allowed. We should always remain servant of the servant (CC Madhya 13.80). Never we shall think that "I am better than my Guru Mahārāja." That is fall down. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare... Our Juhu Beach is very nice.
Prabhupāda: "If we want your teaching, we shall go to you. Why you have taken the trouble to come here? Please go out." That's all.
Yaśomatīnandana: Even though, Prabhupāda, we chastise them so severely, somehow or other they still have a soft corner for the devotees. They are feeling guilty.
Prabhupāda: They must have. Yes, they must have. They know they are culprit. But for their party's sake they are thinking or saying, "We are right. We are right."
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, yes. Cause they are not sincere enough.
Hṛdayānanda: We have one devotee who was a member there. Now he is a devotee. There is one of our members. He is just a young boy and he went to the Guru Maharaji, and then when he heard our philosophy, now he is with us. Bāṇabhaṭṭa. Now he is a nice devotee. Just as you always say that a sincere person cannot be misled.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa will help him.
Prabhupāda: There was one physician in Dacca. He was... Morning, he was washing his face. So one man was going, and he was coughing. So he asked that man, "Come here. Where you are going?" So he was a cultivator—"I am going to the field." So he said, "Better go home. Don't go to the field." So he was a respectable physician, so he went back. So his students asked that, "How is that, you asked him to go home?" So he chastised his stu..., "You do not know that he is coughing and the sound is like this? He will die after eight hours." It is experience. The students did not know but he could understand, "Coughing under such and such sound, it means death after such and such time." Yes. That, kavirāja can tell. When my father died, the kavirāja said, "Now you can do the rituals because he will die before next morning." He said. And actually it so happened. He said me this about ten, eleven o'clock, and he said exactly, "Before next morning he'll die." So that is experience. If you say, "After twenty days the month of January is coming," the child cannot understand, "How father said that twenty days after, January is coming?" But it is better experience only that one can say, "Today is 10th, and after twenty days, 1st January, will come." Everything is experience but supreme experience is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore if we receive experience from Him, then our experience becomes perfect. This is our proposal.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So in this way he decided, or he made a plan, not to kill. From superficial, material point of view, he was very nice gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa actually chastised, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś... (BG 2.11). "You are talking like a very learned man, but you are fool number one." This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. And then at last He said that "The most confidential part of knowledge I am telling you," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām e... (BG 18.66). "What I say, you do. That means I am asking you to kill, to do that." So he said, kariṣye vacanam, "Yes." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "I do not like to do it, but Kṛṣṇa wants me to do, all right." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. (laughing) I do not like to do, but Kṛṣṇa likes to do, I have to do it. This decision is very good. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, a devotee, is prepared to do anything nonsense for Kṛṣṇa, even in the estimation of ordinary person. People ask me that "You are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness and he is, say, encouraging war," because they have got experience of the last two wars in Western country. So when Kṛṣṇa encouraging the war, they do not take it very nicely. They say, "What kind of God He is?" because they have suffered in the war, and then we are presenting a God who is encouraging war.
Prabhupāda: ...not this, not that. That will not help. You must act in such a way that these people accept you as superior. (break) ...(Hindi) (break) ...not a paid servant. (break) ...bring Bhagavān at your control. You can bring Him at your control by love. Just like Yaśodāmayī... She's showing the stick: "Kṛṣṇa, if you do like this, then I will chastise you." And He's crying. That is premā. (break) Premā pum-artho mahān. That is the highest achievement, to achieve the love of Godhead. And if you love God, then you achieve love of everyone. (Hindi) (break)
Dr. Patel: I like you calling me... "What is that, what you are doing now?" (laughs) (break)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break) ...anya Mahāprabhu has taught us that to remain a fool and rascal before spiritual master is the first qualification of the disciple. Always remain a fool and rascal.
Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached after, after...
Prabhupāda: Guru more mūrkha, guru more mūrkha dekhi, karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). "My Guru Mahārāja has chastised Me, considering Me a fool number one." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a first-class mūrkha, fool. And therefore he has chastised Me." That is the standard of guru and śiṣya. A guru... And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, lālane bahavo doṣāḥ. If you pat, there are so many bad things. Lālane bahavo doṣās tāḍane bahavo guṇāḥ. And if you chastise, there are so many good qualities. Tasmāt putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca taḍayet.
Prabhupāda: Na tu lalayet. Therefore either son or disciple, you must always chastise him, not pat him, "Oh, you are very good boy." "You are nothing. You are doing nothing." That is the business of the guru, to find out fault.
Dr. Patel: Don't spare the rod.
Prabhupāda: Although there is no fault, the guru's business is to: "Where is his fault?" That is guru's business. Tasmād taḍayet na tu lalayet.
Dr. Patel: Yesterday you had a very big congregation here? Or all the chairs were kept out?
Prabhupāda: Yes. People were coming. Therefore we have given. Not very big congregation, but many people came.
Prabhupāda: Yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ sa bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ. Either take this medical or chant twenty-four hours Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: And don't eat.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Patel: I... I chastised them by asking them to starve for one day. So they... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...take bath in the ocean?
Yaśomatīnandana: No, drinking water.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Dr. Patel: And the drinking water also should be strained to, to...
Guest (1): That is most important part.
Dr. Patel: Through muslin. That is the (indistinct) (break)
Prabhupāda: ...fire it, and keep it. It is all right. (break) ...no service. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...them, the form is meant for killing them, chastising them. Therefore dangerous. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). So for the nondevotees the form is very dangerous. Sadā paśyanti yoginaḥ. Yogis, they concentrate their mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is real yoga. (break) ...boat, he crossed over.
- samāśritā ye pada-pallava-plavaṁ
- mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ
- bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ paraṁ padaṁ
- padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām
- (SB 10.14.58)
- This is the process.
Mahāṁsa: This śloka is... Where is that śloka, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: It is in the Tenth Canto. Bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padam. Just like this ocean, if it becomes a small pit, then don't require a big ship to cross over. You just... Like this. It can be reduced. By Kṛṣṇa's desire, it can be done so. Just like at the present moment... Formerly, people used to go to London from India, from Bombay, at least, in fifteen days. Now it doesn't take even fifteen hours.
Prof. Regamay: Still, there are two questions I have which remain. One is quite a small question. I have read in your commentary to the chastisement of Droṇa, killing of Droṇa, and where it was that violence for a right cause is better than the so-called nonviolence. Now I wanted to ask, for instance, to find that nonviolence or like Gandhi, it was wrong...
Prabhupāda: Gandhi was not a man of spiritual under... He was a politician, that's all.
Prof. Regamay: Yes, but in his personal...
Prabhupāda: Gandhi, actually he did not know anything.
Prof. Regamay: Yes, he read Bhagavad-gītā in English.
Prabhupāda: That is also nonsense. There was no Kṛṣṇa. There was no Mahābhārata or Kurukṣetra. He has written like that.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that for example he could listen to everything that you were saying, and then he could repeat it, and someone might say to him that "Oh, you are an expert. You are a master," but actually he's not. He's simply repeating.
Prabhupāda: No, this is example. By receiving a knowledge, you must corroborate by your knowledge or by your experience, by the method. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said that Arjuna was declining to fight in the war. So Kṛṣṇa said that "You are simply lamenting on this body, but you do not know what is the active principle of the body." So this you can understand very nicely, that everyone is working for this body, but nobody knows what the active principle of the body. Without the active principle of the body, this body, alive or dead, is the same thing, lump of matter. So Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as teacher; therefore He is chastising him that "You are talking like a learned man, but you are lamenting on this body, but no learned man laments on this body, either dead or alive." Because without the knowledge of the active principle which is moving the body, what is the use of simply understanding the bodily construction? The medical science knows the construction of the body, anatomy, physiology, the bone, this muscle, the blood and everything, but he does not know what is the active principle.
Devotee (1): He said that "You are as good as the all-pervading Supersoul."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He... He pointed out the deficiency, that "You have not described so elaborately about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You have touched only the social, religious, political point of views." That was his deficiency. So a disciple is always in deficiency before his spiritual master. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru more murkha dekhi karila śāśana (CC Adi 7.71). "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." So disciple should be always ready to be chastised. He should not think that he has become perfect. That is perfection. So long he thinks that he is not perfect-he's to be chastised—then he's perfect. And as soon as he thinks that he has become perfect, he's nonsense immediately, nonsense number one. (Break) ...always to be chastised by the spiritual master for perfection. And if he thinks that now he has become perfect, then he's a foolish. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more murkha dekhi. "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one." Was He fool number one? He's God Himself. But that is the position. He should remain always a fool number one, ready to be chastised. Then he's perfect. In the moral instruction, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita gives this instruction, that lālane bahavo doṣas tadane bahavo guṇaḥ: "If you chastise your son or disciple, he'll improve, and if you say, 'Oh, you are all right,' then he'll degrade." Tasmāt putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca tāḍayet na tu lalayet: "Therefore you always chastise your son and disciple. Never flat..." What is called?
Jayādvaita: Flatter.
Nalinī-kānta: Whatever the spiritual master says, that is also perfect?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he says nothing concocted. Whatever he says, he says from śāstra, and guru.
Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is there any instance when you were chastised by your spiritual master?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee (2): Is there any instance when you were chastised by your spiritual master?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Devotee (2): Can you tell us?
Prabhupāda: I remember the moment was very valuable. Yes.
Devotee (2): Can you tell us the story?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I think I have said that.
Satsvarūpa: When you were speaking to one man...
Prabhupāda: Yes. He became very angry and chastised me.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jagajīvana: Was this during a lecture?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I was not... One of my old brother, he, he wanted to speak something. So I leaned my... I immediately became... (laughter) So he chastised him more than me.
Devotee (2): When Lord Caitanya chastised someone more than Advaita Ācārya, Advaita felt that He had been neglected 'cause he had not received a greater chastisement.
Prabhupāda: He wanted to be chastised, so Caitanya fulfilled His desire. (end)
Paramahaṁsa: But he himself was nonviolent.
Prabhupāda: Nonviol... That's alright, he was a fool. Therefore I say you cannot bring nonviolence in politics. There is no such history. Just like Arjuna wanted to be nonviolent. Kṛṣṇa chastized him, that you are a foolish number one. So... This is to bring a horse before a cart. Politics and nonviolence, it is incompatible. It is not possible. And he did it. Therefore he was a fool. Just like if you want to cook without fire. Is it possible?
Devotee: No.
Prabhupāda: So, this is foolishness. You become very bold enough, "Now I shall cook without fire." You are a rascal number one. Gandhi did it. Actually he could not drive away the Britishers by nonviolence, for thirty years, thirty-five years he struggled.
Prabhupāda: Innocent child. He's not innocent. He is sinful. He is being, what is called, chastised. Svakarma-phala-rūpa-jīva. That is the word, svakarma. One suffers... (aside:) You can sit down here, just like... Everyone suffers the reaction of his own work. Svakarma-phala-rūpa-jīva. Because he is a child, he takes sympathy, "Oh, such a small child is being killed." We take it like that. It is that he is the potent criminal. Now he is being punished.
Prabhupāda: Maybe.
Paramahaṁsa: And sometimes you said that better not to..., better to read your books.
Amogha: When the devotees went to India this year, they said that Acyutānanda Swami very..., chastised them that "You should never... If I catch any of you buying Bhaktisiddhānta's books from Gauḍīya Maṭha then I will take it away," something like this.
Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, that was, the reason was because of, he didn't want the devotees going to Gauḍīya Maṭha. But there's nothing wrong with the idea of studying the previous ācāryas' books.
Prabhupāda: No. Who said? That is wrong. We are following previous ācāryas. I never said that.
Paramahaṁsa: All of your commentaries are coming from the previous ācāryas.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break) ...and the water. (Hindi). (break) ...and one fourth land and we are puzzled with the increase of population. But there is no puzzle, three-fourths water population. Wherever you go, you get immediately many thousand fishes. So just imagine how many fishes are there. These rascals say "Overpopulation." Why not overpopulation there? Huh? The fishes, for want of food, they are dying and floating? Why overpopulation? All their calculation are simply bogus. There is no question of overpopulation. Even... Just like people simply can live on mango and coconut. Where is the question of over-population? It is chastisement. When one cannot get proper food, that is not due to overpopulation. It is due to godlessness. As soon as people will become godless, nature will chastise them—no food, no rain, suffer. This is law. (?) (break) ...signpost.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...Mahāprabhu also had difficulty with the caste brāhmaṇas?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They complained to the magistrate that "What kind of religion He is introducing? It is not our Hindu religion. So chastise Him." (break) ...report of the brāhmaṇas, the police came and broke these drums. It was not the fault of the Mohammedans. The brāhmaṇas lodged complaint against Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he has to take step. They said, "It is not Hindu religion. They are disturbing God by chanting so loudly. (laughter) Now the God is sleeping and they are disturbing, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So stop this." So what can he do? After all, he is public servant. Therefore he took steps.
Prabhupāda: Syphilis, yes. So in India the syphilis is very horrible disease. So he exclaimed, "Oh, it is horrible." The doctor, that Colonel Maylow(?), he was astonished: "Why you say it is horrible? In your country they suffer, 90%, from malaria. That's not horrible?" So the example is that when you are suffering for a doctor, either you are suffering from malaria or from syphilis, we are suffering from disease. Why you say "This disease is horrible than that disease"? Actually this is the fact. Why should you discriminate? So he chastised him that "As a medical man, you cannot say this disease is more dangerous than that. Every disease is dangerous." Actually you should take that. Suffering, three kinds of suffering—adhyātmika, adhibhautika... The suffering is there. If you say adhyātmika suffering is better than adhibhautika suffering, that is foolishness. Atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ. Spiritual life means to end all kinds of suffering. That is spiritual life. Not that I get free myself from this kind of suffering and I accept that kind of suffering. This is not good conclusion. Atyantika-duḥkha. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). This place is duḥkhālayam, full of miseries. And Kṛṣṇa is canvassing, "Why you are suffering? Come to Me." This mercantile community, they are earning money for mitigating suffering, but for earning money they are accepting any means. In future he is creating field of another suffering. That he does not know. He thinks, "Now, if I get money somehow or other, my present sufferings will be mitigated." But he does not know that he is creating another field of suffering.
Prabhupāda: Why not? Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa was in politics. So He instructed Arjuna to fight. This is politic—for a good cause. When Arjuna denied that "Kṛṣṇa, I am not willing to kill my, the other side, my brothers and my uncles," He chastised him that kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam: "How you are talking like non-Aryan? What is this nonsense?" He... Kutas tvā. First of all... Find out.
- kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ
- viṣame samupasthitam
- anārya-juṣṭam asvargyam
- akīrti-karam arjuna
- (BG 2.2)
- Anārya. Anārya. He has said anārya. Ārya means advanced. Anārya means less advanced.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes people ask, Prabhupāda, that if one falls down into lower species of life like plants or animals, how then do they come again to the human form of life?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nature's way. Give them again chance to develop. From trees they become flies. That is the beginning of movement. Then from flies to birds, birds to beast, and beast to animal, er, human being. This is great chastisement. You cannot move even. Suffer torrents of rain, cyclone, scorching heat, pinching cold. Stand up for hundreds and thousands of years. Then, when the punishment is finished, then he becomes moving. If there is scorching heat he can move to some shelter. But he cannot move. They do not study all this science, why there are so many varieties of life, of different grades. Wherefrom they are coming?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The living entity, then, in the tree is actually conscious of its condition of life.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The living entity inside the tree is actually conscious of its condition of life.
Prabhupāda: Not advanced consciousness, but he is conscious. He feels. He feels.
Prahupada: That is going on. Just like Mother Yaśodā. She would chastise Kṛṣṇa. But you will never find Nanda Mahārāja is ever chastising. Rather, when Kṛṣṇa was chastised, Nanda Mahārāja would come back and take Him on the lap: "All right, I shall punish Your mother," and call him (her?), chastise. And then Kṛṣṇa will stop His mouth: "No, no. Don't do this." It is natural that when the child is in the lower stage, minor stage, the mother takes more care. That is natural. (break) Such a big planet, sun, six months rotating on the northern side of the equator, six months on the southern side. It is never changed. Why?
Brahmānanda: It's an accident. (laughs)
Cyavana: The sun doesn't change?
Prabhupāda: No, the uttarāyana. Now it is passing on the northern...
Dr. Patel: Devī Purāṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Yes, you can eat meat. There is no harm. But you get it sacrificed before Goddess Kali." But this is not meant for the high-class brāhmaṇa. This is meant for the third-class dvija. But still, he is induced to accept some authority. In this way there are Purāṇas. Somebody is recommended to worship Lord Śiva, somebody is recommended to worship Kali, Durga, Sarasvatī, many demigods. But Nārada Muni chastised his disciple that "You have done wrong. Why you have recommended all these things?" Jugupsitam. That is said there, that "People will take your authority, and they will be engaged in worshiping different demigods." Actually that is not required. Then he compiled Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, only the Supreme Lord worshiped. The same thing as Kṛṣṇa explained, mam ekam. That is success. So Vyāsadeva was very much...
Dr. Patel: But, sir, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, He has already said in Mahābhārata also, you know?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They were, they were belonging to the Aryan family. The Europeans, they were also Aryan family, and Indians, the Arabians, Persians, they were all Aryan family. And the Americans they also migrated from Europe. They are also Aryans. But that is familywise. But actually Aryan means one who is advanced in civilization. That is Aryan. Therefore when Kṛṣṇa chastised Arjuna, He addressed him, "non-Aryan." "You are not talking like Aryan." Anārya juṣṭam. "You are talking like non-Aryan." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Aryan means advanced. The first-class civilized men are the Aryans. So that standard of Aryan civilization is to understand God, Viṣṇu, and go back to. This is perfectional. Yato vā imani (indistinct) bhūtāni jayante. To understand it. And again return back to Him. The modern civilization, they are completely unaware of God, neither they know it that going back to home, back to Godhead, is perfection of civilization. This is the defect.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says mam ekaṇ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and Vivekananda says yatha mat tatha path. Just see. He is poverty-stricken of knowledge, and he's giving knowledge. Just see the fun. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said guru more mūrkha dekhī' kori... śāsan: (CC Adi 7.71) "My guru found Me, seeing Me, I am a fool number one, he has chastised Me." What is that? "Don't read Vedānta; You cannot understand. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," because...
Dr. Patel: Here we are talking about the divyā part of the...
Prabhupāda: Because, no, He was questioned...
Dr. Patel: ...of the life. I talk of the maintenance of the body. To maintain the body Karl Marx put up this theory and, I mean, spoiled the whole thing—whole society and social set-up.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi to a passerby) Everyone is manufacturing; that is my point. Either Karl Marx or this one or that one, everyone is manufacturing. No one is taking the instruction. And our mission is "Take instruction of Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don't manufacture like nonsense. What you'll manufacture? You are imperfect, your senses are imperfect...
Prabhupāda: That is Aryans. So they are now the same thing. A person born in a brāhmaṇa family, he is claiming "I am brāhmaṇa." Similarly, even though born in Aryan family, without any culture they are claiming "I am Aryan." Kṛṣṇa observed it in Arjuna, and therefore He chastised him, "This kind of proposal is anārya-juṣṭam. Under the non-Aryans, you're forgetting your duty." That is the beginning of loss of culture. A small beginning, it creates havoc. Kṛṣṇa warned this, anārya-juṣṭam. Kṣatriya's description is given in the Bhāgavata: yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam, not to go behind. They must fight. That is Aryan culture.
Dr. Patel: They are doing strategical fight. Strategically great. They should not repeat, but our army is doing strategical fight.
Prabhupāda: There is a Bengali saying-palabanata boineki(?): "Am I afraid of you, that I shall not go away?"
Dr. Patel: (laughing) I understand.
Prabhupāda: "I must go away. That is my independence!"
Prabhupāda: Sometimes Kṛṣṇa is chastised by Mother Yaśodā. So how is that? The Supreme Personality of Godhead is being chastised by Mother Yaśodā?
Girirāja: He likes to be chastised. It's part of the relationship.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, He likes to worship His devotee. Sometimes the father takes the child on his shoulder. Does it mean the child is more important than the father? They say the Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇa, there is no such incidence as Rāmacandra worships Śiva. It is later on, interpretation. But even if He does so, what is the wrong here?
Harikeśa: That later-on Rāmāyaṇa has caused some havoc.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: That later-on interpretation?
Prabhupāda: Yes, the Śaivaites, they want to make Lord Śiva the exalted Supreme Person. In South India there is good propaganda. That is always going on.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, they are bigger than Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not their position.
Prabhupāda: Overintelligent.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember one time Kārttikeya Mahārāja was chanting to a picture of Bhaktisiddhānta. You chastised him and said, "What is your connection with Bhaktisiddhānta? Your connection is with me."
Prabhupāda: Who said?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You did.
Sudāmā: You did. I remember.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When Kārttikeya Mahārāja was chanting to your guru mahārāja's picture, you said, "How you can connect with him? Your connection is with me." (end)
Hṛdayānanda: In America if the father chastises the child, he calls him "rascal."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has a nice connotation.
Prabhupāda: (break) māyāra adhikāra. Now the ruling of this, what is called, fog is finished.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Night also.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Night also?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything darkness finished. The sky is clear.
Prabhupāda: ...I am your friend, I am God, so you sleep, I shall do everything. In Russia like that. When Arjuna refused to fight He chastised him like anything. What is the anārya-juṣṭam? He's just like non-Aryans, talking foolish. People should clearly understand that we don't encourage laziness. We never encourage. According to your capacity, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), you must work. Śarīra yātrāpi te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ, Kṛṣṇa says, "By not working, even if you cannot put on your body and soul together." Kṛṣṇa says like that.
Dayānanda: Isn't laziness one of the demonic qualities, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: It is less than demonic. Demonic qualities, they have some activity and laziness is ignorance, darkness. Therefore too much sleeping is very, very bad. That is another part of laziness. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau **, one has to conquer over this sleeping and laziness. Eating, nidrā, ahāra, vihāra, sense gratification, vihāra means sense gratification. One has to minimize these things up to the point of nil, that is perfect. When there is no more sleeping, no more eating, no more mating, and no more fearing, that is perfection of spiritual life. And that is not possible, but as much as possible. (break) ...they cannot sleep more that the culture (?) is very great gain, profit.
Prabhupāda: He proved that "You are a rascal. One who puts this argument, he's a rascal."
Akṣayānanda: That was just an excuse to avoid fighting.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa clearly chastised him that "You are talking like a fool." Eh? Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān: (BG 2.11) "Talking like a very learned man, but you are a fool. No learned man speaks like that." Why they have kept this nice road within this forest? What is the idea?
Hari-śauri: There's some village on the other side?
Akṣayānanda: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: No, for village the government is not going to keep such nice road. This government department, forest department.... The government policy is to develop these places for industry in future. This industry is the cause of falldown of the human society—industry. So the reaction is.... The industry, two things required—four things required: land, labor, capital, and organization. So now the industry is going on, and the capitalists and labor, there is fight. The laborers, they are finding out that "We are working. Why the capitalists will take the profit?" This is communism. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: They? They are not majority. Therefore we have to reform.
Dr. Patel: Only God will reform them by giving them.... They should be chastised.
Prabhupāda: They are being chastised, but they are so fool, they cannot understand they are being chastised. Just like a dog is being chastised. He cannot have eating, eatables, whole day and night, eating stool. Somebody's stoning, somebody's sticking, and still, he is very jubilant: "Gow, gow, gow, gow, I am very happy." (laughter) This is going on. So this dog's association, dog society, they are suffering in every step; still, they are thinking, "We are making progress." That's all. Dog civilization. Hog civilization. Dog civilization. This is not civilization. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). Dog civilization.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. So because he accepted discipleship, so He immediately chastised him that "You rascal, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are on the platform of bodily conception of life, the platform of the animals." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Anyone who accepts this body as self, he's animal. He's not even a human being. So the whole world is on this bodily concept of life. That is going on. "American," "European," "Hindu," "Muslim," "black," "white," this, that. They do not know what is education. That is the first education, that "You rascal, you are not this body. You are within the body." So who understands this? And they're declaring that "We are student of Bhagavad-gītā. We have studied Bhagavad-gītā." Hmm? Even Gandhi, he takes photograph with Bhagavad-gītā, but his fighting is for nationalism. The others are doing that. So what is the use of taking Bhagavad-gītā? The Pakistanis are also doing that. But you have taken Bhagavad-gītā, you are doing the same work. So what is your credit? This is going on. So nobody is learning Bhagavad-gītā. It is first time that we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Otherwise, everyone is misled. The subject matter is that the soul is different from this body.
Prabhupāda: And the gopīs were thinking "What this rascal says, say?" (chuckles) They are so sorry that, "We have come leaving everything and this rascal is giving us moral instruction." This is love, they can chastise Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...somehow or other, black market, white market, red market. Let them make... And as soon as there is taste, there will be very good demand. And this black marketeer will make profit and they'll do. This Chinese policy or the Russian policy will not stand. Simply we require to make ourselves strong. As soon as we become stronger than the communist movement, we shall finish it.
Prabhupāda: Then?
Devotee (5): He said they did it independently, unauthorized from Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, and he already chastised them for using the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust label, 'cause it has nothing to do with the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.
Prabhupāda: Who is he?
Devotee (5): Uhhh, I'm not sure. Who sent it? Bahulāśva? That devotee named Bahulāśva.
Prabhupāda: The gopīs got the information that Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā, so from Vṛndāvana they went to see Him. And when Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī met, that Rādhārāṇī lamented that Kṛṣṇa—He was the same Kṛṣṇa and the same Rādhārāṇī—so "this is not a good meeting place. So, if You come to Vṛndāvana, then I shall be happy." So it is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. That is the feeling of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Ratha-yātrā. He is inviting Kṛṣṇa to Vṛndāvana. So in Jagannātha Purī still the same feelings are there. Kṛṣṇa, Jagannātha, from the temple goes to Guṇḍicā. So, Lakṣmī is angry that "Kṛṣṇa is leaving me, He has gone to Vṛndāvana." So she was, she is punishing. That is called Herā-pañcamī. Punishing the servants of Kṛṣṇa. The maidservants of Lakṣmī chastising them, threatened them, "Why without permission?" So they, out of very fearful condition, offering their respect to Lakṣmī, "Mother, you don't be sorry (indistinct), we are (indistinct)." So this, this is the play performed, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu associates they saw, and they enjoyed very much when the maidservant of Lakṣmī was slapping the servant of Viṣṇu. That is mentioned Caitanya-caritāmṛta. All the servants arrested, brought before Lakṣmī, and they are punished. But they came to invite Kṛṣṇa, Rādhārāṇī and other gopīs. And actually they do not go at that time. But this Ratha-yātrā ceremony means Kṛṣṇa is coming from Dvārakā to Kurukṣetra. This is the history of Ratha-yātrā.
Prabhupāda: The body is always defective. Either child's body or your body or my body, it is always defective without the soul and it is effective with the soul. This is the conclusion. Therefore Arjuna was chastised by Kṛṣṇa that "You are giving stress on the body. This kind of conception is for the fools." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase: (BG 2.11) "You are talking like a very learned man, but a learned man knows always that this body is defective, either living or dead." The same body. Dead means the soul is not there, and living means the soul is there. The two conditions, effective and defective, is depending on the soul. The soul is important. You have to understand what is that soul. That is knowledge. Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. To understand the truth, what is the truth there, that without something this body is dead, no more value, and with that something the body is so valuable. So one who is intelligent, he'll try to find out what is that truth.
Prabhupāda: Dog's business. Without any fault, they'll chastise. We have no fault, still they are chastising. Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. You have got this independence. Little independence, more than the animals.
Kīrtanānanda: It's the end of the road, so I think we can turn here.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break).... in the kitchen, this wood or gas?
Kīrtanānanda: Both. Mostly wood.
Prabhupāda: There are so many jungles, we can use wood.
Kīrtanānanda: Actually we like it better.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, it is better, nice.
Prabhupāda: Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't concoct. Don't you sing daily? Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't manufacture ideas. That is dangerous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches by His example. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karilā śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that "My spiritual master saw Me fool number one, so he has chastised Me, that 'Don't try to read Vedānta; chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing." (motorcycle in background) Just hear. He has come to this turn. This sound is purposefully created? (motorbike going back and forth through much of the tape)
Kulādri: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Just to show that he has a motorcycle? Or what is purpose?
Kulādri: They have given us trouble sometimes.
Prabhupāda: Demons.
Prabhupāda: That economic development. Our ācāryas, practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyāsadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90), he dealt with these four subject matter, but not bhakti. Therefore Nārada Muni chastised him, that "You have wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa, catur varga." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything about dharma artha kāma mokṣa. In the beginning he introduces, gives introduction to his book, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra śrīmad-bhāgavate (SB 1.1.2), in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa, they are all kaitavas, cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). So this kaitava, Śrīdhara Swami gives his commentary, atra mokṣa-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam. The desire for liberation is also rejected. Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business.
Prabhupāda: And as soon as you say that you are equal or greater, then you are rascal. We must expose you, that you are a rascal. This is our business. Because we are servants of God. We cannot see anything blasphemy against God. That is not our business. We must chastise immediately.
Rūpānuga: In that way we can help the people in general.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually, that is the fact. If you are actually scientist, then prove that there is God. That is your success of education. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito... (SB 1.5.22). Your education has meaning when by your education, by your scientific knowledge, you'll prove that there is God, He is so glorified. Then you are welcome. Then you are really scientist. And if you become a rascal, then you say "Oh, there is no need of God. We are going to manufacture. Just wait for one million years." Is that good proposal, I have to wait for one million years to see your scientific research work? And we shall allow such fools to flourish? That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: So you are taking care. I am very much obliged to you. I sometimes think in my childhood I was very, very pet son of my father. I have admitted that in that book I told. My father was not very rich man, but still, whatever I wanted, he would give me. He never chastised me, but full love. Then of course I got friends and I was married, so by Kṛṣṇa's grace everyone loved me. (laughs) And I came to this foreign country without any acquaintance. So Kṛṣṇa has sent so many fathers to love me. In that way I am fortunate. At the last stage if I live very peacefully, that is a great mercy of Kṛṣṇa. By Kṛṣṇa's mercy everything is possible. So we shall stick to Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet and everything is possible. What is that book? After Kṛṣṇa book? No, after Kṛṣṇa book, that yellow...?
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Prabhupāda: So distribute this prasādam. So Eighth Canto is also?
Rāmeśvara: It is going out to the printer in the month of July, this month, by the end of the month.
Prabhupāda: Oh, first part.
Bhagavān: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anything grown in the garden, that is hundred times valuable than it is purchased from the market. (pause) Bhagavad-gītā is a book which can guide the whole human society. In all different branches of knowledge, namely in politics, in sociology, in religion, in culture, in philosophy, in economics, everything, all lines are described very vividly, and the human society can take advantage of it. The Bhagavad-gītā begins in the battlefield with politics. And when Arjuna declined to fight, how Kṛṣṇa chastised him, that is described, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam. Find out this verse.
Prabhupāda: So you are getting more? Why Gargamuni advised you to give up? I chastised him, "Why you have given him such advice? He's a gṛhastha, he must have some money. He has to take care of the children." Anyway, you have got better job now and better service also. Kṛṣṇa has awarded you for your service. Stick to it. Don't... If you like to serve here, you can be permanently settled. No, what is their rules?
Dayānanda: It is quite easy, because they need foreigners to come and work here.
Prabhupāda: So that is very, very good.
Prabhupāda: That is your idea, but if I am proprietor of something, I must keep my right. It is not that... Suppose I am proprietor of this house, and there is a nice garden. I allow my friends and relatives or family to use it. But when they misuse it, shall I remain silent? If I am proprietor, when things are being misused, shall I remain silent? When you misuse it and if I chastise you, how you can say that "You have given to us, whatever we like we can do. Why you are protesting?" Can they say like that? You say that God has given us, so we can do, there is no need of God. That is your argument, is it not? What that argument?
Nava-yauvana: God has given all these things...
Prabhupāda: God has given us all these things, but does it mean that if you misuse it and God will see only silently? Does it mean that?
Nava-yauvana: No.
Prabhupāda: Then how you can say that you can do it as you like? God has given us?
Jñānagamya: They don't understand how God chastises when they misuse. They don't understand karma.
Prabhupāda: That means shameless. They are being chastised at every step, and they don't think it is chastisement. They are shameless fools.
Prabhupāda: And when they are chastised, then God is unjust. This is their position. You cannot deny the proprietorship of God. That is not possible. If you misuse it, then you'll be chastised. You'll be chastised. Even in that park, the park is owned by the government. You cannot pluck any flower without the permission. You can use it. You can go there and sit there, enjoy it, but if it is prohibited that nobody can pluck flower, if you do it, then it is criminal. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God, so you can utilize it, God's favor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, according to His instruction. Suppose there are many persons coming in the park. You cannot prohibit anyone to come into the park. As you have entered, "Yes." But you have made laws like that. What is this immigration? Artificial prohibition. Everything is God's property. Anyone can go anywhere. Why you have made this immigration department, "Don't come here"?
Jñānagamya: They say it is to protect the people who are here.
Prabhupāda: Then why you came here? The Americans, why they went to America and killed the Indians? And now they have become proprietor, "Don't come here."
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Harikeśa: "The Lord at once took the position of the teacher and chastised the student, calling him, indirectly, a fool. The Lord said, 'You are talking like a learned man, but you do not know that one who is learned—one who knows what is body and what is soul—does not lament for any stage of the body, neither in the living nor in the dead condition.' As it will be explained in later chapters, it will be clear that knowledge means to know matter and spirit and the controller of both. Arjuna argued that religious principles should be given more importance than politics or sociology, but he did not know that knowledge of matter, soul and the Supreme is even more important than religious formularies. And, because he was lacking in that knowledge, he should not have posed himself as a very learned man."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was posing himself as the body. So he should not consider himself as a learned man. Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ.
Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa is the only God. That's why there is no other alternative. Kṛṣṇa is the God, there is no alternative.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is... That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). All incarnation of God is described, and the summary is given at the end that all these names, Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, and so many, hundreds and thousands, so all of them are Kṛṣṇa's plenary portion or portion of the plenary portion. Ete ca aṁśa-kalāḥ. And this Kṛṣṇa, tu bhagavān, He is the original. Ete ca aṁśa-kalāḥ. And this Kṛṣṇa, tu bhagavān, He is the original. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). It is clearly stated. And Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). There are many incarnation of God. So many incarnations that you cannot count even. Just like it is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that like you cannot count the waves of the river, similarly you cannot count how many incarnations are there. But Bhāgavata gives you the information that all these incarnations, innumerable incarnations, they are portions or part of the portions. But kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. And Kṛṣṇa also confirms that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: (BG 10.8) "I am the origin." Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. What is the difficulty? But unfortunately you have got fertile brain. You manufacture things. And that is your misfortune. It is better to remain a fool before the ācārya. Then he'll make progress. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). "My guru saw Me a fool number one, and he has chastised Me."
Prabhupāda: Liberated soul never says that "I am liberated." As soon as he says "liberated," he's a rascal. A liberated soul will never say that "I am liberated." That is liberated. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God—guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan (CC Adi 7.71). "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a fool number one, and he has chastised Me." He's God. This is the example. If one remains always a servant ever-lastingly of guru, then he is liberated. And as soon as he thinks that he is liberated, he's a rascal. That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru more mūrkha dekhi'. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is mūrkha? Why He's posing Himself that mūrkha? "I am fool number one." That means that is liberation. You must be ready always to be chastised by guru. Then he's liberated. And as soon as he thinks that "I am beyond this chastisement, I am liberated," he's a rascal. Why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan? This is sahajiyā-vāda. He is thinking, "Oh I have become liberated. I don't require any direction of my guru. I'm liberated." Then he's rascal. Why this Gauḍīya Maṭha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru. He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that "This man should be the next ācārya." But these people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who shall be ācārya. That is the failure.
Prabhupāda: My father never chastised me.
Hari-śauri: I think you said your mother was always very strict.
Prabhupāda: Because he was very lenient. So mother had to be little strict for my education. So prepare a case for these rascals. We have got strong case. And charge, "Why you have made 'ungodly'? Prove it. What do you know about godly?" Charge them. So there will be discussion, long discussion, what is godly and what is not godly. Put them in the corner. "What do you know, rascal, about godly tradition? You have charged us, 'ungodly.' "
Gargamuni: He's a drunkard, that man. That editor, he drinks.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a Parsee.
Prabhupāda: Charge in the court, "What do you know about godly that you have charge us ungodly." Then it will be exposed. Do, immediately do. Immediately plan to bring in the court.
Indian (1): Yes, varṇāśrama, I wanted to, Swamiji...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head—brāhmaṇa; the arms—kṣatriya; the belly—vaiśya; and the leg—śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there. Brāhmaṇa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required—military department or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam(?). The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing.
Prabhupāda: There may be some percentage. If you do not accept the recognized process... Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was a great scholar. So He was chanting and dancing. So some of the sannyāsīs, Māyāvādī sannyāsīs in Benares... (to servant:) You keep it there, they will take. There was a meeting, and the question was that "You are a sannyāsī..." This question was put to Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that "You have taken sannyāsa, you do not read Vedānta, and you are mixing with the sentimental persons, chanting and dancing. What is this?" This was the question. So He explained that, "Yes, My Guru Mahārāja found Me a great rascal." Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). You understand Bengali? No. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a rascal number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." What is that? Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. "He has said that 'You are rascal, you cannot read Vedas and Vedānta. You are rascal. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing that."
Prabhupāda: I have got a sister. She is three years younger than me. So sometimes I chastise her like anything. Because we have the same feeling, she is younger. Seventy-seven years, younger sister. But the feeling is there, younger. You know I sometimes chastise her.
Indian man: Here the feeling is about... We can do more work. It doesn't depend upon the age. In spite of this age we can do as much work as you want. This is what I wanted to emphasize here.
Prabhupāda: Because the soul is not dependent on the body. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. If the soul has got energy, he doesn't care for the body.
Prabhupāda: They dipped down in a certain lake. In this way, he became a very beautiful young man. Then for soma-yajña, his father-in-law, the daughter's father came. He came. So he was surprised, "How is that? My daughter is with another young man?" He became angry. "My dear daughter, what is this? You are defaming your husband's family and my family." He began to chastise like that. And just see. Because he sees that "I got my daughter married with old Cyavana. How is that, with a young man?" Just see. Condemned like anything. And she was laughing. She knew that "I have not changed my husband. A change of body." Then she said, "My dear father, don't be angry. He's your real son-in-law. He has become now young by treatment." Then he was very pleased and embraced his daughter, that "You are so nice." This is Vedic civilization. Even one has got old, going to die husband, she cannot change. This is the chastity.
Prabhupāda: Whatever your father and mother has chosen, that's all. He's your worshipable husband. This is the... This point I wanted to bring. And her father was surprised. "How is that? I got you married with an old man? Somehow or other, circumstances I was obliged. How is that you have picked up one young man?" He chastised her like anything. Then when he came to understand that the same old man has become now young man by medical treatment, then he was satisfied. So you cannot change. I have seen it. One, my father's friend, he was very old man. My father was also... He was at that time not less than sixty-five. But his wife died, and he was married with another young girl. But his sister forced him to marry. That "Unless you marry, who will look after you? You have no children." But I have seen that young woman who was married with that gentleman... In our childhood we used to called her didi. Didi means elder sister. So the relationship was very thick and thin. But that old man, not less than sixty-five, and this young woman, utmost twenty to twenty-five. She was serving the husband like anything. We have seen it. There is no question of changing or being dissatisfied.
Prabhupāda: It is allegation. And they are so fools that the Americans, they have come here to become Vaiṣṇava and starvation and they have become religious. They have no food there, and they have come to me and they have no dress, they have... And this boy is English boy. He is giving me massage as if he's a poor man's son. This is... Is he poor man's son? Why he is giving massage? We are Indian, poor Indian. He is not in need of money. He even buys his own cloth. The other day I was chastising him, "Why you are purchasing? You take." "No, I have got money." Just see. This is their position.
Dr. Ramachandra: May we take leave?
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes. (Hindi—jokes about CIA) (laughter)
Prabhupāda: I stress on this cleanliness very much. If they keep unclean, I chastise them like anything. (laughing) They have learned this art. I always say, "Cleanliness is next to godliness."
Mr. Malhotra: About two years back, two, three of your devotees came to our house here. Naturally we offered them, "Would you like to have coffee, tea?" They said, "No." Then we said, "Would you like to have Coca-cola." They said, "No." Then I said, "What would you like to have, milk?" "Yes." Lassi, chach?(?) Yes. Fruit. Yes. It happened so that Girirāja came to us twice, and twice it was this ekādaśī. Now ekādaśī day they are not supposed to eat this wheat or flour or anything. So when last we came to Bangleswara (?), so we brought some paraṭās with this gobi(?) in it.
Prabhupāda: Ekādaśī.
Prabhupāda: Their one qualification is that they are not poverty stricken. And our boys, they are poverty stricken. So daridra-doṣa guṇa-rāśi-nāśī.(?) Even though are educated, on account of poverty they sacrificed everything their culture, their knowledge. Daridra-doṣa guṇa-rāśi-nāśī.
Guest (1): Yes, hunger is the cause of all. (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: I chastise them only because they don't care for money. (laughter)
Guest (1): They are extreme. It is contradiction...
Prabhupāda: And because they are fortunate, wherever they go, they get money.
Guest (1): That is law of nature. All the big rivers go to the sea where water is not wanted.
Prabhupāda: I have seen them. They squander so much money, and I chastise them that "You are so loose, you are so rascal and..." But still, whatever money I have got, it is due to them.
Guest (1): That's true, that's true. (laughter) That's true. That's true.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise... (laughing)
Prabhupāda: More or less everyone of us, we are fool, mūḍha. Kṛṣṇa has stated mūḍha, mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). He has chastised like anything. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān (BG 16.19). So anyone who's not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is within these categories: duṣkṛtina, narādhama, mūḍha, māyayāpahṛta-jñāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is Indian movement, but na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. They are not taking seriously. That is the position. It is our movement. Kṛṣṇa came in India and because India is so glorified place, puṇya-bhūmi, even the demigods they desire. Not India, this planet, Bhāratavarṣa. Formerly, the whole Bhāratavarṣa means whole planet. Anyway, for the time it is now minimized. So it is not ordinary land. So our men, they are not interested in such great movement. How much regrettable it is. And who are they? Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). If you speak the truth, then you take the quotation of Kṛṣṇa. Now every Indian should take part in this great movement. Every Indian. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of accept. He was plainly defeated. Because he said that (indistinct). Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted his invitation after this. He also invited and he also (indistinct) ...talk like that. Not only that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu criticized, but as soon as Vallabhācārya invited, He accepted. There was no enviousness. Rather friendly, sometimes they call others are (indistinct). Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu would accept invitation from Vallabhācārya. But they are habituated to criticize (indistinct). That Caitanya Mahāprabhu chastised him: "Why should you think like that?" In a friendly way. (indistinct) They are still criticizing Śrīdhara Swami, and if others criticize them, "Why you are criticizing Śrīdhara Swami?" There is no answer. This is the position.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. A student should always remain to be chastised by guru. That is his right position. And as soon as he thinks that he has become more than his guru, then he'll be finished, his career.
Trivikrama: Jumping over the head.
Prabhupāda: Just like our Nitāi. (chuckles) This is the difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu remained-guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana: "My Guru Mahārāja has chastised Me because I am fool number one." Caitanya Mahāprabhu is fool? But He's showing the example that you should always remain...
Dr. Patel: The avatāras shall behave like common men. Otherwise they will not be... All avatāras behave like common men.
Prabhupāda: Our Guru Mahārāja, so strict... A little discrepancy, he would chastise like anything. But we liked it very much.
Indian (3): Guru's chastise is the mercy.
Prabhupāda: Śiṣyaṁ ca putraṁ ca tāḍayen na tu lālayet. That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. "The sons and disciples should always be chastised. Never pat them."
Prabhupāda: Tāḍayet means taraṇa, chastisement.
Indian (4): Actually we were so rapt, we wish to be beaten by your stick on our head.
Prabhupāda: Śiṣya, this word, very word, means voluntarily accepting the chastisement. This word, śiṣ, śās, śās-dhātu... From śās-dhātu comes śāstra. Śastra means weapon. So weapon is meant for maintaining peace and order. And śāstra. Śāsana. These are the derivation from original root... Śiṣya. Śiṣya means who has voluntarily accepted to be chastised and ruled by the spiritual master.
Dr. Patel: Śikṣā means instruction. So the one who takes the instruction in śiṣya. Śikṣā.
Prabhupāda: To obey. Śiṣya means to obey, discipline.
Dr. Patel: Live under the paternity of guru to learn.
Prabhupāda: Yes, voluntarily giving him the right to rule over.
Girirāja: Sanātana Gosvāmī, when he suspected that they were going to steal, he told, "Get rid of it."
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Yes. He immediately offered, "I have got this seven dollars. You take it." He was astrologer. He said, "No, you have got eight dollars. But I'll not take your money." "No, no, you take, sir. You'll not take—somebody will take. I'll give you. Kindly help me." And he chastised his servant, "Why you have taken these dangerous things? So you have got still one dollar. You go back. You don't come with me. And eight dollars I have given him. I'll be free." He thought that "Master is by sentiment leaving home and he is so opulent. Let me go with him and keep some money in case of emergency." Of course, that is... From his part it was right, but he thought that "Without this money, to remain, is more safe than to feel safety by keeping money." Because if the government is plunderer, then there is no other. This time is coming. The government will plunder in the name of taxation, and there will be no rainfall, scarcity of food. So everyone will feel very difficult to maintain the family. They'll leave voluntarily and go away. This is foretold.
Prabhupāda: Any sane man will appreciate. Why this father, mother, came to congratulate me? "Swamiji, you have done so..." It is Kṛṣṇa's desire that everyone be happy. They'll take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then?
Pradyumna: "It is said here that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk because their milk bags were fatty and the animals were joyful. Do they not require, therefore, proper protection for a joyful life by being fed with a sufficient quantity of grass in the field? Why should men kill cows for their selfish purposes? Why should men not be satisfied with grains, fruits and milk, which combined together can produce hundreds and thousands of palatable dishes? Why are there slaughterhouses all over the world to kill innocent animals? Mahārāja Parīkṣit, grandson of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, while touring his vast kingdom, saw a black man attempting to kill a cow. The king at once arrested the butcher and chastised him sufficiently. Should not a king or executive head protect the lives of the poor animals who are unable to defend themselves? Is this humanity? Are not the animals of a country citizens also? Then why are they allowed to be butchered in organized slaughterhouses? Are these the signs of equality, fraternity, and nonviolence? Therefore, in contrast with the modern, advanced, civilized form of government, an autocracy like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's is by far superior to a so-called democracy in which animals are killed and a man less than an animal is allowed to cast votes for another less-than-animal-man."
Prabhupāda: That's all (laughing) we have said. You can do one thing. You have got nim tree?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) The real purport of Bhagavad-gītā is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful. (Hindi) If you take Bhagavad-gītā, the speaker of Bhagavad-gītā says this is the purpose: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). Duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ. That... Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhā duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ. "One who does not do that, he is sinful, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ. And fool, rascal, narādhamāḥ, lowest of the mankind." He is chastising like that. So if you have got other purpose, that means you come to this group. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhā narādhamāḥ.
Guest (7): So about (Hindi) Ramakrishna Mission.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) But why do you take Bhagavad-gītā? You are free to do whatever you like. That freedom is given. Kṛṣṇa has given. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). That you have got. But when you speak of Bhagavad-gītā, then you speak what Kṛṣṇa wants.
Prabhupāda: And why there was no abortion? Contraceptive pills? You dance. Immediately there is sex, and there are so many sinful activities after sex. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍhas, how they can understand Kṛṣṇa? Tribhir guṇamāyāir bhavair. Find out this verse. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). One boy was asking, "What is God?" I chastised him like anything, that "You are born in India. You're asking what is God? How degraded you have become." First of all I answered like this. "India, where Lord Rāmacandra, appeared, Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared, Cai..., and you are Indian, you are asking what is God. How much degraded you Indians have become. Just imagine first of all."
Rāmeśvara: But it helps all the citizens if the devotees are ruling the kingdom.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is wanted. Therefore, if we become strong, we shall take over charge of government. It is not that we are entering into politics. We must! That is also one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. People are misguided. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasaḥ. They are being induced to remain in ignorance. Therefore we want, make our plan. Śoce: "I am thinking very seriously how to save them." Prahlāda Mahārāja says. That is Vaiṣṇava's business. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhi. "They are suffering." That is Vaiṣṇava, real Vaiṣṇava, not that "Now I am realized soul, sit down and..." That is also good, but better business is to think for others. That is stated in the Bhāgavatam. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣu... (Bg 18.68), na ca tasmād. If you want to be really very dear to Kṛṣṇa, you must preach this philosophy vigorously, not that "I have got it. Who is going to take so much botheration? Let me sit down." Kṛṣṇa... Who can be better devotee than Arjuna? And why did he... He was, rather, avoiding the botheration. Kṛṣṇa said, "No. You must take the botheration." He chastised him, kutas tva kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame. "Rascal, what is this? You must take. You have to take this botheration." On this principle, at the age of seventy years, I took all the botheration—"All right." The other friends were thinking that "This man is going to die, and he is going to preach." (laughing) They said like that. And "All right. I shall die, I shall die for Kṛṣṇa's cause." So we have to face so many problems, botherations. That is natural. We should not be afraid of this.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. A student who is more chastised is advanced. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "My spiritual master saw Me a grand fool. Therefore he has chastised Me." That is the position. The more we remain a grand fool, then more we may advance in spiritual consciousness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. He was mūrkha?
Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one thing they're doing against us more and more in the West is taking the testimony of an ex-disciple of yours, and he will say, "I was a Hare Kṛṣṇa..."
Prabhupāda: "Because he is rascal, therefore he's 'ex,' excommunicated. My Guru Mahārāja kicked him out, so what is the value of his word?"
Gargamuni: We can say these men were excommunicated.
Prabhupāda: Ex means he's executed. That's all. He's finished.
Prabhupāda: So king has the power to chastise him. Just like if this child says, "I don't believe in education," shall I have to accept? He must be punished. He's a child. He can say, "Father, I don't believe in education. Let me play." Will the father allow? Chastise him. That is king's duty.
Devotee (1): So if someone wanted to be, say, a Christian in the Kṛṣṇa conscious..., a society led by a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, if someone wanted to be a Christian, would he be chastised?
Prabhupāda: First of all, whether Christian is religion or, imperfect thing, we have to see that. The father does not chastise always. When the son does wrong, then he chastises. Otherwise why shall he chastise? Christian means if they... Religion means one who believes in God and abides by the order of God. That's his religion.
Satsvarūpa: So if they chanted Christos and stopped eating meat but they still wanted to follow the Bible...
Prabhupāda: No, Bible... But if they follow Bible, that is religion, approved. But they do not follow. Bible says, "Thou shall not kill." They are killing. So what kind of Christian he is? He's a nonsense.
Satsvarūpa: They should be chastised.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be punished. That is the duty of the king. You follow any bona fide religion; you get all protection. But you don't follow; you must be chastised. That is king's duty. A king has no objection whether you are following Christian method or Hindu method. It doesn't matter. But you must have some religion. If you have no religion, then you are animal. You must be chastised. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Religion means you believe in God and love Him. That's all, three words, religion.
Bhāgavata: The king is like a father.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated. Lord Rāmacandra treated His subjects as sons and they also treated Lord Rāmacandra as father. That is the relationship between the citizens and the king-father and son.
Bhāgavata: The chastisement that the king gives...
Prabhupāda: That is out of love.
Bhāgavata: Out of love.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not by enviousness. Chastisement means correction. He's in the wrong way; he is corrected to the right way. So gradually you have to take the power of the king to correct the whole human society. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). That is Kṛṣṇa's business, to give protection to the right person and to chastise the wrong person, two things required, side by side. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. And dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Three, another. By chastising the wrongdoer and by giving protection to the right man, and then establish what is real religion. And then Kṛṣṇa's mission, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is perfect. Three things: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya yuge yuge sambhavāmi. This is Kṛṣṇa's business. (break) ...Bhagavad-gītā, everything will be nice, everything.
Devotee (1): But first the child has to see that there is some benefit from going to school.
Prabhupāda: Child cannot see. He's a rascal. He should be beaten with shoes. Then he will see. The child cannot see. Putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca tāḍayen na tu lālayet: "Sons and disciples should be always chastised." That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. "Never pat them. Lālane bahavo doṣās tāḍane bahavo guṇāḥ... "If you pat, then he'll be spoiled. And if you chastise him, he'll come out a very nice person. Therefore, either disciple or son, they should be always chastised." This is the injunction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. There is no question of patting them.
Gurukṛpā: People want to be flattered. They don't want to be told very strongly.
Prabhupāda: And that is the position of disciples. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu was God Himself, and He said that "My Guru Mahārāja saw me a fool rascal number one." Chastisement. That is required. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, a great moral instructor. He has advised, tāḍayen na tu lālayet: "Always chastise them. Otherwise they'll be spoiled."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The intelligent boy knows that, that chastisement is mercy.
Prabhupāda: Children has got also the same thing. Why the father stops? Children want to play. They do not like to go to school. Father does not like it. Is that father's attempt to check the child's freedom? Every father is doing that. The government is doing that. Why government is checking criminality? Hm? Why government chastising those who are criminals?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because what they are doing is not good for themselves and for others.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What the criminal does is not good for himself nor for anyone else. So the government chastises them.
Prabhupāda: What is the definition of criminality?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One who breaks the law of the government.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And what is the law of government? The law of government is to give the citizen best life. So similarly, if we are trying to give them best life, why we should be checked? We are asking them, "No meat-eating, no gambling," so is that bad instruction?
Prabhupāda: Although nonviolence is a very good word, but who can accept it? We don't say such rascal things, imagination. We introduce Kṛṣṇa, encouraging, "Fight!" Nonsense nonviolence. (chuckles) "Kṣatriya, you should fight. Don't talk nonsense." Kutas tvā kaśmalam idam. "What kind of talking you are doing? You're My friend." And he wanted to introduce nonviolence. Where is nonviolence in Gītā? Artificial, all artificial.
Hari-śauri: When Arjuna wanted to stop fighting, Kṛṣṇa chastised him.
Prabhupāda: And he wants to prove nonviolence from Gītā. Just see how foolish he was. If you say publicly that he was a rascal, fool, then you become unpopular. But actually he was a rascal fool. (laughs) Artificial. Kṛṣṇa says, "You fight," and these rascals say, "Nonviolent." He's more than cheating. Māyāvādī.
Hari-śauri: Cheater.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Cheater, one must be due to ignorance. Generally one who is fool, he commits criminality. No sane man does it. Sane means he knows what is what. He does not commit mistake. But to commit mistake means he's insane, ignorant. That is not innocence-ignorance, foolish.
Prabhupāda: "So whatever the cause, but you have no brain. Cause may be so many things. But you have no brain to understand the simple truth. Where is your brain? So this movement is not brainwashing. Brain-giving. You have no brain." Therefore śāstra says, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Animal has no brain. They say animal has no soul, but that's not the fact. Animal has no brain. Otherwise, all anatomical, physical, physiological conditions are there. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. But they have no brain. They cannot understand what is the difference between dead man and living man. That is the distinction between man and animal. But if you cannot understand, then where is your brain? On this point. Actually he has no brain. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). That was the point Arjuna was chastised, that "You rascal, you have no brain. You are lamenting on this body and talking like very learned man." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca... (BG 2.11). The whole world is going on like that. They're talking like very big scientist, big philosopher, very big, big, big, but real thing they do not know. "So where is your brain?" Challenge them like that.
Prabhupāda: The father was astonished that "After so much chastising, still the boy is speaking the same way. He has not changed?" Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta. "Incorrigible. Kill him." "All right, kill me. I don't care." They have got so exalted character like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Dhruva Mahārāja, all great personalities. Apart from big, big devatās... Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ (SB 6.3.20). We have got small boys also as good as Brahmā, more than Brahmā. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ prahlādaḥ kapilo manu, prahlāda. Immediately comes Prahlāda also. Amongst svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ.... janako bhīṣmo balir vaiyāsakiḥ. Read Bhāgavatam, amalaṁ purāṇam. Read yourself, let them read. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There is no question of cheating or getting some some material profit out of this movement. We have no such thing. Material profit will automatically... My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "You are thinking of material things so. We should come and fall down at your feet, 'Why you are worrying? You go and speak the real truth.' " (Bengali:) " 'Go and speak the truth.' " No compromise. So I never had scarcity of money. He is from the very beginning.
Prabhupāda: This movement is started to give something to the whole human society about the real culture. And that is India's prerogative. India can give it. The whole world is in darkness of ignorance. So India was expected after independence to give the real knowledge. But instead of giving the real knowledge, they became victimized by their glimmer of material civilization. So I wanted that such a magnificent gift from the side of India, it shall remain uncontributed to the world, let me try. This is my... This culture is based on Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is named Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In India practically every home, every person, every leader, they read Bhagavad-gītā. But unfortunately they do not understand the human life. Because in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā we find Kṛṣṇa says,
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
- Take Bhagavad-gītā.
- aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ
- prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase
- gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca
- nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ
- (BG 2.11)
This is beginning. When Kṛṣṇa began to instruct, began instructing Arjuna about Bhagavad-gītā, the first chastisement was given to Arjuna that "You are talking like a paṇḍita, but you are a rascal."
Prabhupāda: Later age, yes. That is enjoined. When child is sixteen years old he can do as he likes, not before that.
- lālayet pañca varṣāṇi
- daśa varṣāṇi tāḍayet
- prāpte tu ṣoḍaśe varṣe
- putraṁ mitravad ācaret
This is the moral instruction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Up to five years, don't chastise, don't take any action. Let him be free. Whatever he likes, he can do. Then after fifth year, for ten years you must be very strict. Then five years and ten years, fifteen. And when he is sixteen years, treat him like a friend. Prāpte tu ṣoḍaśe varṣe putraṁ mitravad ācaret. At that time, no stricture that he will break. "My dear boy, if you do this..." This is necessary. And from fifth year to fifteenth year you should chastise the sons and disciples just like tiger. After five years.
Prabhupāda: All these boys I chastise vehemently. Even a little mistake.
Mr. Koshi: You...?
Prabhupāda: They tolerate. They know.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are afraid.
Mr. Koshi: What is your message to the world?
Prabhupāda: Again you ask me. (laughter) (Hindi)
Mr. Koshi: Yes, I know. but...
Prabhupāda: After reading Rāmāyaṇa you are asking whose father is Sītā. (laughter) I have explained already.
Prabhupāda: Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu also presented Himself as idiot number one. He said to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī asked Him that "You are a sannyāsī. You do not read Vedānta and You chant and dance. What is this?" So He answered, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. "My guru found Me a fool number one, so he has chastised Me, 'You rascal, You are fool, You cannot read Vedānta. You Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' " So it is good that we remain as fools and idiot. Then we can make progress. And if we think, "Oh, I know everything," then finished. It is a good attitude. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana.
Dr. Sharma: Śāsana means punishment, to check.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We get very much happy when our Guru Mahārāja chastises us. So you are already reading our books. So let us cooperate, and I think if you will preach systematically, the Russian people, they are intelligent, they will appreciate it.
Girirāja: Actually they're animals.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So these animals, they are passing on as big scientists, philosophers, theologician, and so on, so on. We have to stop them. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). This is the qualification of a person who does not accept God: duṣkṛtina, narādhama, mūḍha, māyayāpahṛta-jñāna-although highly educated, no knowledge-āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ, simply atheist. So as Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders, we have to punish them, chastise these rascals. They are demons.
Girirāja: Actually, it's... It's actually relishable to chastise them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) It is a pleasure sport. So you come here. What is the news? What the, all these rascals saying? Newspaper means all the statement of rascals.
Bhakti-caru: "Earnest Plea to Nine Congress Chief Ministers."
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bhakti-caru: "Earnest Plea to Nine Congress Chief Ministers.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa condemned it, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam: "You are trying to become nonviolent." And Gandhi became more than Kṛṣṇa, nonviolent. What is this nonsense? Kṛṣṇa chastised Arjuna, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam, anārya-juṣṭam: "These things are spoken by the anāryas, not by the Aryans."
Mr. Dwivedi: No, He advised, quite right, hato vā prāpsyasi svargaṁ jitvā vā bhokṣyase mahīm, tasmāt...
Prabhupāda: No, no, in politics, when you deal in politics there is no question... Kṣatriya therefore. These things should be trained up. Some of them should be trained up as brāhmaṇa. Some of them should be trained up as kṣatriya, some of them as vaiśya. They are required. So these things we want to organize. We can give you instruction. We can give you help. Now you have to do it, the leading... But it will be done. If you follow our instruction, it will be done. So the buildings are there.
Prabhupāda: So far money is here, scattered, you can take charge and do the needful. I kept some money here, there, just to... But now you can take charge of the all money, one or two or three of you, and let me remain free from all management. And only request is, don't spoil it. I sometimes chastise everyone that may not be spoiled. You are taking care of everything, but still more careful. I can live without any food, simply taking these fruits. There is no difficulty.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, there are people who do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And we don't care for the lunch. What is the... I am sitting idly. I haven't got to work hard. I don't require food, little fruits even. Those who are working, they require food to get strength, but I am sitting idly, and brain is working. So so far my physical necessity, there is no necessity of food. But I may not so depend on that going to the bath, toilet. I require... And that is also not required. There are many persons. That Rajda... I... He was also... I have seen many men. For rising up, they require help.
Prabhupāda: I think in Japan I have got. One European boy came. He came: "How you have got so much knowledge, sir?" His inquiry was that. In Dum Dum Airport some gentleman came, Indian. The thing is, knowledge was there. It was not presented. (pause) (aside:) He'll take one; you take. (break) Hm? Kṛṣṇa asked the gopīs that "You can take your cloth, one after another. You have done a great fault. Naked, you are taking your bath. So just offer to the deity namaskāra." (laughs) Chastised: "You are very naughty. Why you are doing like this? I tell you, this is for your good." So they did it. (pause) Gopījana-vallabha. (pause) Kṛṣṇa's naughty activities... In every neighboring house they would come, Mother Yaśodā, friends, and they'll repeat Kṛṣṇa's naughty activities, and Mother Yaśodā, stopping all household business, she would hear. She would hear again. This is kṛṣṇa-līlā. How ordinary person would understand? "What is this? Spiritual life? A child's naughty activities, and they are hearing, and this is spiritual?" But Kṛṣṇa has made easy salvation, that simply by hearing His naughty activities you'll be liberated. Who will understand this philosophy? Can you give me a little hot water with lemon?
Prabhupāda: And they are hearing the philosophy also. In the evening class they come.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes. Bhavānanda always has young people coming to Māyāpur. Intelligent, well-educated, wealthy people's children come. He yells at them like anything. He tells them that "Why are you imitating the West when you have the greatest culture?" Bhavānanda Mahārāja yells at them, chastises them. They like it. Naturally they like it because he's praising their culture.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is a fact. And the books are selling very nice, hm, Bengali?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. Now there's about seven or eight parties traveling around India, simply doing book distribution.
Prabhupāda: That is our aim.
Prabhupāda: This boy was stubborn atheist.
Dr. Kapoor: Svarūpa Dāmodara.
Prabhupāda: And he was walking with me on the seaside, and I was chastising him, kicking him, and refuting. (laughs) Now he has organized this Bhaktivedanta Institute.
Dr. Kapoor: He came to see me last time in connection with some journal, some new journal that he was going to bring out. What about that journal now?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sa-vijñānam.
Prabhupāda: Sa-vijñānam.
Dr. Kapoor: Sa-vijñānam.
Prabhupāda: Jñānaṁ te paramaṁ guhyam, sa-vijñānam. What is the...?
Dr. Kapoor: Sa-vijñānam. Sa-vijñāna means...?
Prabhupāda:: "With vijñāna." Sa means "with."
Adri-dharaṇa: On the plane he met another doctor and he chastised him for making diluted drugs. So it seems...
Prabhupāda: Huh? Adri-dharaṇa?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that on the plane he met another doctor so he chastised that other doctor for making diluted drugs. He's known for his upstanding qualities in the mixing of drugs purely.
Adri-dharaṇa: Everything he makes, he claims that he makes by the hand. And he's also recommended by another Rāmānuja āyur-veda. Actually we had gone to see him there and he said to approach this man. He said this is the best man in the field.
Prabhupāda: Who is that man?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is the other man?
Adri-dharaṇa: That man, Govardhanaji, he is on (indistinct) street, and he was recommended by L. N. Bangor.
| Page Title: | Chastisement (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 17 of Aug, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=95, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 95 |