Prabhupāda: We have got life after death. That is a fact. Just like we are continuously in life, in this present life, you were a child, I was a child. Everyone of us were a child. That was a life. Then we became boy, then we became youth. Now we are, I am becoming old, and generally, when this body will be useless, I will have to take another body. This is the way. Unfortunately, the people, they do not believe in the next life. Although in every day affair they are experiencing that "I am eternal. I can remember the days of my childhood. I can remember the days of my youthhood, my boyhood, and I am still working. That means I am continuously there although my body in different ways have changed." So it is a fact that even after changing this body, you will have another body.
Changing (Conversations 1968 - 1974)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So that is the third stage, initiation. And then, if you are situated in the third stage nicely—that means if you follow the regulative principles under my direction—then the fourth stage automatically comes. After this third stage, the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, up to eighth, automatically comes. That is gradual development. So in the third stage, if you follow the regulative principle and chant with some prescribed number, numerical strength, then your all misgivings will be over automatically. What are these misgivings? The first misgiving is that I am this body. Everyone is under the concept of this body. This is... I am not this body. That is a fact. But body is changing. There are many examples. One of the example is a very common example. Suppose a man is dead. Now everybody is crying, and if we ask "Why you are crying?" "Oh, my son is dead." I can say, "Your son is lying here. Why you are saying that he is dead?" "No, no. He is dead. He is gone. His body is lying." Therefore he is different from the body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Practically everything depends on practice. Abhyāsa-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā (BG 8.8). Abhyāsa-yoga. Abhyāsa-yoga means yoga practice... Practice it. So this whole Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to practice transferring from one kind of consciousness to another. So we require practice. Just like one man can run few miles. I cannot run even one mile. He has practiced. We see some boys, they run, run on. They practice. Practice it. Strength of the heart increasing by practice. And if I run, my heart will be palpitating. Because I have no practice. So by practice, everything can be attained. Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. (break) ...determination. And this determination is increased by celibacy. Brahmacārya is recommended to keep oneself determined. A brahmacārī, if he determines something, he executes. He has got that strength of mind. Those who are too much addicted to sex life, they cannot be determined. They cannot be fixed-up. They are fluctuating, changing.
Reporter: I think what... I think we have to carry it further enough so that we can tell whether, for one thing whether I have a story or not. If it's felt if you have doubts that it can be done, that's one thing. But if you have great confidence that it can never be done except by changing one's body...
Prabhupāda: No, I don't say that. I say that in order to enter into the... Just try to understand me clearly. In order to enter the moon planet you have got to prepare yourself for a suitable body. Is that clear? If you, by some way or other, you make that suitable body you can enter. But the present body which you have manufactured, the spacesuit, is not suitable.
Reporter: Okay, then when I try to carry it further, if they use the present body and do, are successful...
Prabhupāda: That they could not do till now. That is future contemplation. Because even going up to sixty miles off they could not. Therefore this is not suitable. Now you say also, just like they didn't have the ticket. The further arrangement is still waiting. That means this is not suitable. This is... We just try to convince you.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That I have explained, that changing our body, there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So after death, you enter in one of the bodies.
Student (4): And what happens?
Prabhupāda: As happens... As you enter the body, the happening is according to the body.
Student (4): But does this go on and on indefinitely or does it stop? Do you just keep changing bodies indefinitely or does it end?
Prabhupāda: Not indefinitely. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you haven't got to change this material body. You are transferred to the spiritual world. There is eternal body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I am prepared to tell you, and this center is open for telling you. Our books are there. It is not a paltry subject that you can understand immediately, but I can give you one instance. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, Second Chapter—those who have got Bhagavad-gītā, they will see to it—that "Within this body there is soul, and the body is changing every moment." That is a fact. We say, "The child is growing." Growing or changing-practically the same thing. Actually, it is changing because the former body is no longer to be found. It has accepted, the soul has accepted, another body. This is going on from babyhood to childhood, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, then old age. So, just like I am old man. I can remember my childhood body, my babyhood body, my boyhood body, my youth-hood body. So the body is no longer, but I am there. I am thinking that "I did do like this. I was playing like this with my body." But that body is gone, but still I am there. Therefore it is naturally surmised that when this body will not be existent, I will be existent. I will accept another body. This is very logical conclusion. As I am changing so many bodies, still I am there.
Prabhupāda:
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
Because I do not remember what I did in my mother's womb, that does not mean that I had no a little body. The body is change, I am there. Therefore, I change this body I will remain. This is common sense business. I am changing my body daily every moment. Your childhood body and this body is not the same. You have changed your body, but that does not mean you have, you are different person.
Prabhupāda: Now, suppose, not suppose, it's a fact: your body in the mother's womb in the first day.
Allen Ginsberg: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Of the father, mother sex life, it comes just like the pea many diverse. So from the pea you have come to this point. So body is changing. So what is the astonishment if you change this body, again become, take another pea form. What is the difficulty to understand?
Allen Ginsberg: Well, the difficulty to understand would be any permanent being; to understand that there is any permanent being or any continuity of any form of consciousness from one body to another.
Prabhupāda: Then you have to consult. Therefore you have to take, just like when you can not understand something, we consult some great authority. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: So now people do not wish to consider also this point, that "If I am eternal, if I am changing my place, my dress, my occupation every fifty years or ten years or twelve years according to the dress..." The cats and dogs, they live for ten years. The cows live for twenty years, and the man lives for, say, hundred years. Trees lives for thousands years. But everyone has to change. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). As we have to change our old dress, similarly, this body has to be changed. And we are changing. Changing every moment. That is a fact. This boy will grow also some day like you, like me. This body will not stay. I had a body like this, say, fifty years ago or sixty years ago, but that body is now missing. I have got a different body. So everyone is changing body in this way. We do not know where that body gone, but ultimately also, we shall change, and we shall enter another body, and again we have to begin new set of work, leaving all aside. Suppose this life I was President Kennedy; next life, even if I am born in America next door to President Kennedy's house, nobody will recognize me that "Here is your property.
Prabhupāda: Primary readings.
Hayagrīva: And this is all right to use?
Prabhupāda: Because we haven't got any books yet.
Hayagrīva: What about taking the primers and changing the names of the people to people like Satyabhāmā and give them spiritual names. Would that be nice?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Pradyumna: Hari-nāmāmṛtam.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: All right. Arithmetic should be taught?
Prabhupāda: Arithmetic? Yes. That is necessary.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, that is second. First of all surrender. Then what way you shall surrender, that is different thing, another stage, more confidential. First of all there is surrender. First of all you enter this house or this room. Then you ask, "How can I serve you?" That is different. First of all there is no surrender, or without surrender, full surrender, there is no entrance in Kṛṣṇa. No entry. Because those who revolted against Kṛṣṇa, those who wanted to become Kṛṣṇa by imitating Him, they are here in this material world. Icchā-dveṣa-samutthena sarge yānti parantapa (BG 7.27). (Hindi) Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19), creation, that all the living entities who have come into this created world, they have revolted. They wanted to become Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they have given the chance, "All right, you become Kṛṣṇa. You do whatever you like. I will give you facilities. You want to become Brahmā? All right, you become Brahmā. And you want to become the worm of stool? I will give you the facility." So these living entities are rotating. Sometimes he is becoming Brahmā, sometimes becoming the worm of stool, sometimes this, sometimes that. In this way he is changing body. This is material world.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Aparāṇi. Navāṇī vaśtrāni aparāṇi, gṛhṇāty aparāṇi.
Guest: Yes. According to that version, one, if the soul was there, soul was there before birth, and after death, soul is there, and again the soul is coming in a new shape. So the soul is going on always, changing one body to another body, then how the soul is liberated? How it will be...
Prabhupāda: Liberated means at the present moment under this material, in this material world, he is accepting material body, and when he is bona fide servant of Kṛṣṇa, he'll be offered a spiritual body. Just like a soldier. A person, so long he's not a soldier, he does not, he is not awarded the uniform. But as soon as he accepts the service as a soldier, immediately he is given the uniform. So you are accepting different bodies in the material world, and that is bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You are accepting one type of body, it is becoming vāṇīshed, again you have to accept another.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna existed. You are existing. You are eternal. You are simply changing body. So Kṛṣṇa is existing; you are also existing. What is the difficulty to understand this fact? Kṛṣṇa is existing and you are also existing. You are simply changing body, but Kṛṣṇa is not changing body. That is the difference.
Guest: Soul will not merge into that light, Kṛṣṇa's light?
Prabhupāda: What is that merging? You have got that brain, merging.
Guest: I told that... You have told...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Soul is changing body. Why you are talking of merging? You are changing body, you are individual. I am changing body. I may change to a dog's body, you may change to a demigod's body. That is going on. According to one's karma, he is changing body. Now, when you are Kṛṣṇa conscious fully, this change of body will take place also, but that body will be spiritual.
Prabhupāda: No, they have now made changes. Just like our late Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. He made some Hindu code. He introduced in that Hindu code the right of divorcing husband and wife. But these were not in Manu-saṁhitā. And, of course, they are changing. If you like, you can change. But the social order also not exactly the same as it was before.
Prof. Kotovsky: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: And so many things. So they're changing. But before this modern age the whole Hindu society was being governed by Manu-smṛti. Manu-smṛti, yeah.
Prof. Kotovsky: In all periods in India...
Prabhupāda: Manu-smṛti. Now they are changing so many. They... Strictly speaking, the modern Hindus, they are not strictly according to the Hindu scripture.
Prabhupāda: There is no department of knowledge or science, scientific department, to study what is there after life, after finishing this body. That is a great, I mean to say, department of knowledge. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Dehe. Deha means this body. So there is a dehinaḥ who owns the body, dehi. So dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. The dehi, the owner of the body, is within, and the body's changing from one form to another. The body of a child, baby, a certain type of form, it changes into another type of form when he's child, another type when boy, another type when he's young, another type, he's old. This is going on, but the owner of the body existing. Similarly, when this body will be completely changed, another body he will accept. So people do not understand this. As we are accepting different body even in this present life from babyhood to childhood, from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood... That's a fact. Everyone knows it. I was a child, but that childhood body is no more. I have got a different body. Similarly, what is the difficulty to understand: when this body will be no more, I'll have to accept another body? It is great science.
Prabhupāda: Other surrender you have to change by revolution, but when you come to Kṛṣṇa, then it is sufficient. You are satisfied. Just like... I'll give you one example, that a child is crying, and people changing laps, "Oh, you are crying." It is not stopping. But as soon as the small baby comes to the lap of his mother, he stops: "Yes, full satisfied."
Guest: Final satisfaction of...
Prabhupāda: So these changes, this surrendering, will go on in different categories. Actually all the surrenders-sum total is surrender to māyā. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayi mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). So this surrender is going on, going on. It is the māyā's, māyāra vaibhava, paraphernalia of māyā, either you surrender to this or to that. But final surrender-mām eva ye prapadyante, māyām etāṁ taranti te—the final surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then he is happy. Surrender will stay. His process of surrender is there, but this surrender keeps him quite satisfied, transcendental.
Prabhupāda: So in your country also that position may come. Now in America you are happy. Because the nature is changing, jagat. Jagat means which is changing. So before any further changes come, you spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over your country. You should utilize these fruits and flowers for Kṛṣṇa and be happy. Don't slip down. That is my request. Whatever I could do, I have done. Now it is up to you to spread this movement all over the world. Don't go away. There is some tendency, somebody. Therefore, I ask you, no. This is all nonsense. This is māyā's peeping, "Why you are working so hard for a sentiment, chanting and dancing? Come on, take to service and be happy with your wife and children." This is māyā. This is māyā. I did not ask my students to marry to become a lost child. I wanted to give them some facility, because you cannot do without wife. But now I am seeing that some of them are slipping away. This is not to be done, no.
Prabhupāda: Then how you can take sannyāsa? It is a very great responsibility. (break) There is no need of taking sannyāsa. If you are sincere in preaching you can do in this dress. Where is the harm? Simply by changing, taking a rod, you'll not become God immediately. You have to work, steadily. What is there in sannyāsa? Do you mean to say taking a rod one becomes sannyāsa? Sannyāsa means you must be sacrificing everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is sannyāsa. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī (BG 6.1). Sa sannyāsī, he's sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti. You went to Israel but again came back. Why? What was the difficulty?
Kulaśekhara: Well, there's no activity there Prabhupāda. I got attacked on the street. I got very sick and I was attacked on the street when I was on saṅkīrtana.
Prabhupāda: Do you like to go to Africa? It is warm country.
Prabhupāda: What benefit you will derive by going to (indistinct)?
Reporter: But, well, he'll go to the... Supposing somebody is out to kill me. That's changing, if you can't tell him...
Prabhupāda: But suppose (indistinct) does not kill you. Will you be safe?
Reporter: No, sir. That I can see, but...
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of going to (indistinct)? You will die today or tomorrow. That's all. If you want to save yourself, then go to Kṛṣṇa. That is our proposal. (laughter) As soon as you go the (indistinct), he does not fight, do you mean to say you will live forever?
Reporter: No, no, sir. I've got...
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of telling (indistinct)? Trust Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa so that you may perpetually be saved. Why don't you take that?
Prabhupāda: That is our position.
Reporter: I could many times fall from here...
Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa says, "I will save you." Therefore let us go to Kṛṣṇa. Why (indistinct)?
Reporter: Changing, because he is disturbing, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Disturbing... Your mind is also disturbing always.
Reporter: Yes, yes. You are...
Prabhupāda: That is always with you. Your body disease always with you. Are you not suffering from bodily pains—"Oh, I'll (indistinct)"? Why don't you go to (indistinct) to cure your (indistinct)? (laughter). So why you do? You are already in danger. If you... Why don't you realize that point?
Prabhupāda: They should be trained up, as in business people are trained up. Now the fault is without being trained, simply by votes one becomes prime minister or (indistinct). He has no training how to administer, but simply by vote, he occupies a big post. And that is his qualification. But he does not know how to rule over, how to make the people satisfied. Therefore, chaos. Daily everywhere, government is changing. Daily, weekly, this government, that government, that government. Why? Because they are not trained up how to administer. Therefore, that is required. Tejaḥ. First these administrators must be tejasī, īśvara bhava(?). (Sanskrit) Now there will be fight, and the administers will sit down on the nice couch and the common man will fight. Formerly kṣatriya came first of all. Like Arjuna, he is in the front. The other side, Duryodhana is in the front. So the fighter in that, "Oh, my master is there." But there is no kṣatriya. The administration is under the śūdra side. How they can manage? So they must be trained. As in business, we give training. Similarly, those who are going to take up the responsibility of administration, they should be trained. And who will train them? The brāhmaṇas, the śāstra, sādhu-śāstra-guru. And those who are common men, they will simply work under their direction. This division is already there, simply the training is not there. Therefore, there is chaos.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: All scientific. As this is winter season, so there will be a summer season. Anyone can say that after two months there will be summer season. Similarly, these ages are also, what is called, changing. So now it is Kali-yuga. After this Kali-yuga, there will be Satya-yuga. Cycle. So everything is happening. When there is winter season, everyone feels cold. So there is no question of asking. The particular type of age and its reaction of the quality of the nature, it will be there. So as there are many Kali-yugas, so it is to be understood that many times these things happened, and many times again will happen. Seasonal flowers, fruits. In the past, there were many times all those flowers and fruits, and in the future also they will appear. What is the difficulty to understand? But if in all these changing circumstances, if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your position becomes transcendental. You are no more subjected to all this changing process. So that opportunity is in the human life. It doesn't matter whether he is in the Kali-yuga or Satya-yuga. Because he has got this human form of life, he must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then his problem is solved. So you have to preach like this, that we are giving the best human welfare activities to utilize this human form of life.
Prabhupāda: Now, our simple philosophy is that we are spirit soul. We are eternal. You are eternal. I am eternal. Everyone is eternal. We are changing our body, transmigrating from one body to another. And that means repetition of birth and death, but we are eternal. Why we are in such botheration of repetition of birth and death? Not only that, sometimes in some species of life, may be very high position, sometimes in low position. Suppose somebody is American, and the next life, if he becomes a tree, if he becomes a dog... He may become a demigod also. There is possibility. Just like in future you may be a... (break) ...understand this movement thoroughly and take it seriously. It is for good welfare, for very good welfare. Now, in Europe, America, here also, so many frustrated young boys, they are coming to be practically of no value to the country. In America I see thousands of hippies, they are doing nothing. So what is the future of the country? If the flowers of the country, young boys, they do not take interest in anything, in administration, in industry, then what is the future? From economic point of view I have studied that America, for want of sufficient workers, they are importing goods from Japan. This is not very good sign.
Prabhupāda: Change, I say. How the changes take place? You are changing. You are changing from your childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So there is a plan. Unless there is plan, why one child is not, by chance, becomes immediately old. What the nonsense will reply? Let the rascal reply this, that here is a chance, that one child immediately becomes old man, by chance. Why there is process? This is plan. So you should have depth of knowledge, otherwise you will be carried away by these rascals. We cannot be carried away by these rascals. We never so easily believed that they are going to the moon planet. You see? We have to scrutinize everything. Yes. That is brahminical qualification. A brāhmaṇa will not accept anything simply because it is said by some rascal. A śūdra will accept because he has no intelligence. That is the difference between brāhmaṇa and śūdra. It is not a caste system.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So the article is nice. So one thing is that we are simply interested for a temporary object, but we are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). We do not die. We simply change bodies. Just like these children, they are changing bodies from babyhood to childhood, from childhood to youthhood, the changing bodies. The final change is called death. That means, final change means, giving up this body, we accept again another babyhood body, again begin. This is going on. And this is called māyār bośe, jāccho bhese. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). We are being washed away by the waves of māyā. We are forced to accept a certain type of body, again give it up, again forced to, under 8,400,000 species of life. We do not know, next life what kind of body we are going to get. People should be careful about this. But they are simply interested with this short duration of life, say fifty years or hundred years. But they do not... There is no education, there is no university, that "Everyone is eternal. He should not be engaged only the changing phases of life. One should be interested in the eternal interest of life." This is our mission, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So I'll request you all, ladies and gentlemen present here. Sindhis are generally opulent and religious also, I know.
Prabhupāda: Now, you are very intelligent boy. You can try to understand this philosophy. It is very important. And try to preach. For sense gratification people are wasting so much time, but they do not..., they're not responsible what is going to happen next life. But there is next life. Foolish people, they are ignorant, but there is next life, and this life is preparation for next life. That they do not know. The modern education, universities, they're completely in darkness about this simple knowledge. We are changing body every moment—that's a medical science—and after changing this body, we'll have to accept another body. How we are going to accept that body, what kind of body, this can be also known. Just like one is being educated, when he passes his examination, one can understand that he's going to be engineer or a medical practitioner. Similarly, in this life you can prepare yourself to become something next life.
Prabhupāda: That will not be effective. Simply a waste of time.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Here is the formula, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They actually see how we are changing the character.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So, the leaders of the society, if it is serious, will adopt this, in the educational system, in their private life. In that way they shall ask some question, then it will benefit. Otherwise it will be simply a show.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya, Prabhupāda. I understand.
Prabhupāda: So, you are carrying(?) the whole Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu?
Devotee (4): Me?
Prabhupāda: Bhakti-rasa..., no?
Devotee (4): Hari-bhakti-vilāsa.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari-bhakti-vilāsa.
Frenchman: (indistinct) ...history of many masters and many great teachers such as Jesus Christ and many others... (indistinct) ...come to... (indistinct) ...message. (indistinct) ...today on the same level.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because from God's side there is always an attempt to make the people right. As soon as they're wrongly directed, some messenger comes like Jesus Christ or Buddha or, before Him, Lord Kṛṣṇa. So what we are preaching that is not new. It is God consciousness. And all the great messiahs they came. But the thing is that people are changing in their different education mentalities. So we have to present things in such a way that intelligent person can accept the old teachings in the western countries. Like Lord Jesus Christ... Either they're not being followed or they're not properly understood because in London I saw hundreds of churches are vacant. That means that it's so practical that people have no more interest in Christianity or the Christian people could not convince them of the spiritual necessity of life. Many churches are for sale. That's not a good sign. That means people have lost interest in spiritual life but fortunately the younger generation, they are taking to this spiritual movement.
Prabhupāda: That's all. People after sense gratification. A diseased man, who cannot digest, if he thinks that "I shall eat this, I shall eat that, I shall eat that," but actually he cannot digest. Eating this or that, how it will help him? (laughs) If you have lost your digesting power, then if you change, "I eat this, I shall eat that," that will not help you. So the modern civilized man, he has lost the point how he can be happy. He is simply changing the program of sense gratification. That's all.
Ian Polsen: Becoming more and more desperate.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. He has no other idea. Just like here in this material world the highest pleasure is sex life, so they are changing, different types of sex life, that's all. (break)
(break) We want to see that you are lover of God. God is one. God is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. So we want to see that you love God, that is all. That is our mission. You have forget... (break) ...understand little Bengali?
Guest: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Jayatīrtha: ...so many riots by the students at the university there that the shopkeepers in the local area are suing the State because the windows have been broken so many times and so much merchandise has been stolen by the students, they think the State should pay them back.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they must. The State must be responsible. What the State reply?
Jayatīrtha: Well, they're having to litigate in court over it. The State doesn't want to do it. So this university there is one of the most famous universities in the whole country. They spend so many millions of dollars to maintain it nicely. (break) (dog barking) ...changing their bodies in particular ways to make them look (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: When you do not take care of God, you must take care of dog. (laughter) (end)
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So such people, duṣkṛtinaḥ, who, one who is using the merit for sinful activities, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. He cannot surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15) and rascal. Rascal means denying the existence of God. He's a rascal. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he's a rascal. Rascal means poor fund of knowledge. Everything... Suppose this is a country, Indonesia, nicely being managed; the roads are there; the policemen there, they're directing... Just yesterday we were trying to enter in a one way, policeman directs. So this symptom says that there is a good government. So any sane man, he'll see the cosmic manifestation—that the sun is rising exactly in time; the moon is rising exactly in time; the seasons are changing; the seas is in its position. Just like the Pacific Ocean at any moment it can overflow at any place. But it does not do so. You walk... I was walking in Los Angeles just about three feet away from the sea. So I was explaining to my students, "Now, I am just three feet away from the sea and the sea is so vast. At any second it can overflood us.
Prabhupāda: That is all right, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, that is a, different stages. But the real education is that you have to die. You have to accept another body. What kind of body you are going to accept? If you do not know that what is this meaning of gṛhastha, and vānaprastha, and sannyāsa? It is all rascal. If you do not... You miss this real point, then what is the meaning of this? There's no meaning. Simply by dressing in white cloth one becomes gṛhastha? And simply by dressing one, in this saffron cloth, he becomes sannyāsī? By changing dress he becomes everything? He must know, that what is the aim of life. Everyone should know what is the ultimate of life.
Brahmānanda: Welfare work.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can do without taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Because you have got stool and urine within your body, and there are many germs. They're eating that. You need not make a separate endeavor to feed them. (pause) The individual soul is never lost. That is our philosophy. Dehino 'smin. He's simply changing different body under different circumstances. That's all. The soul, individual soul, is never lost. Neither he takes birth, neither he dies. He's simply changing the garments. This is perfect theory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when they think nicely, there's no reason why they don't accept it.
Prabhupāda: But they are not nice men. They are rascals. They're not even gentlemen. A gentleman will have some shyness, some shame. But they're shameless. They cannot answer properly, still, shamelessly, they claim they're scientists.
Prabhupāda: So how they are thinking? He does not know, what is the use of thinking rascally? One can think properly if he knows things. If he does not know, then what is the use of thinking? The madman also thinks. What is the use of such thinking? Now our thinking begins from the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says: dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As the body's changing from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, similarly the proprietor of the body will change this body. At the last moment. Death means changing of the body. This is the... Now we can think. When there is proper subject matter, then you can think, how it is, how the changes. You have no proper subject matter, nobody is to guide you. What is the value of your thinking? Like dogs and cats? You do not know how to think. That is possible. How to think, that is possible in human life. So if you don't take up opportunity, how to think, then what is the use of your thinking like cats and dogs? Simply wasting time. The valuable life, you are wasting. Making experiment in the laboratory, nonsensically, that from matter they'll create life. You see. How this nonsense...? What is the use of such thinking? Which is never possible. These rascals are thinking on that, in that way, that they'll in future produce life from matter which has never been possible in the history, past, present and they're thinking; "Oh, bright future." That potter's thinking. Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is not lost.
Brahmānanda: It just changes it's form.
Prabhupāda: The original cotton is there. Simply form is changing. This is the process.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it the same from pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya... (Iso Invocation)?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is preserved. Kārya kāraṇam, cause and effect. In the effect, the cause is there. Therefore, Veda says: sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma, everything is Brahman. Because the cosmic manifestation is the effect of the cause, energy of God. Therefore, in the effect there is God. mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā. "In impersonal form, I am existing everywhere." God says, Kṛṣṇa says. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4). "Everything is existing on Me." Na cāhaṁ teṣu ava... "But I am not there." This is the personal and impersonal features of the Lord. The whole cosmic manifestation is the impersonal, it is resting on the energy of God, but you cannot find God here. The example is just like a big businessman, he has got a big factory. The factory's depending on the energy of that man, but if you want to see that man in the factory, you cannot see. Is that example nice? You cannot say that the factory is existing without him. It is in his brain the whole factory's running on. But if you want to find out where is he, that will be difficult.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the, the background is not solid.
Prabhupāda: No. Just like the one strata is like that. After an hour, it will be different. So what is the use of your studying this strata? Therefore it is called jagat. Jagat means always changing. The material world is always changing. Your body. This body will stay, say, for fifty years, hundred years. Then you get another body. That's all. Another body. Jagat means changing. Now this color is there. Say, after one hour it will be white. You see. Then you study this black color. Again you study the white color. Again this black color. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Chewing the chewed. That is your business. Just like seasonal changes. Now it is cold. Any moment, you'll have to get out (of) these clothes. It is very warm. So these changes are going on. The whole material cosmic manifestation is subjected to different types of changes. Therefore it is called jagat. Jagat means going, changing. Your body's changing. Similarly everything is changing. What is the eternity behind these changes? That is knowledge. That, the eternity, they do not find. Therefore they are disappointed: "It is void, zero. Eternity is zero." That's all. And when they are asked wherefrom the zero, varieties come...? Zero means there is nothing. So how the varieties come? Therefore Vedic conclusion, the varieties, there is, eternity variety. And this is only shadow of that variety. It is not eternal because it is shadow. But the real variety spiritual world, is there.
Prabhupāda: Oh, five thousand dollars. She has got some assets. That is called strī-dhana. Strī-dhana means "woman's property." Nobody can touch it. Only, according to Manu-saṁhitā law, strī-dhana... Now they are changing. Strī-dhana, the son cannot touch, the husband cannot touch. Nobody can touch. But, after her death, the daughters will share that money. Because formerly, the daughters could not get share of the father's estate. Only the dowry which is given by the father at the time of her marriage. That much. But she could not claim any estate share. Therefore at the time of marriage, the dowry by ornaments, saris. Hundred pieces of sari. If one is rich man. All Benarsee sari, costly. And woman's nature is that if she gets good ornaments, saris, good food, she's satisfied. She doesn't want anything. She'll never become faithless to her husband. So these things are disappearing. Now rich man, rich man's wife, no ornament. (indistinct). Only the widows, they were without ornaments. Any woman who has got husband must have ornaments. Otherwise, insult. So individual liberty, individual prosperity, everything is disappearing. By the scientific improvement. That's all. This is the net result. Now in your country, that... What is that? Draft board? Eh?
Karandhara: Draft board?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Calling young men to fight.
Prabhupāda: By logic, by science. Anyway, that we have to make program. Because this is most misleading. The whole human society is affected by this misleading theory. We have to make program, go from place to place and invite all big men, all scientists. That program we have to make. We cannot allow this nonsense theory to go on. We must make something. Brahmānanda, how to make this? This is a fact, that, that life comes from life. In another sense life does not come. Life is existing. It is not exactly the word that life generates, no. Life is existing. The matter is generated. Matter is generating, and it stays for some time, again it is vanished. Just like this body. This body is born at a certain date, and it will be finished at a certain date. This is matter. (break) The wood was born at a certain date from the tree. It remains green for certain time. Then it is not green, dry. Then, after some time, it will be finished. Matter is not permanent. Matter is changing. Ṣaḍ-vikāra. Six kinds of changes, matter. Birth, then growing... Matter grows also. Just like the body has grown. It was very small, pea-like body in the beginning, and it grows. So birth, growth, maintenance for some time, then by-product. There are some by-products.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the modern science, they say when one becomes old, the memory becomes short and then they tend to...
Prabhupāda: Yes. The body has changed. Therefore you have to accept that body has changed. Therefore next conclusion is when this body is lost he gets another body. Change of body. Seasonal changes. That one verse in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ, acceptance of another body. Then these modern scientists, they do not know this. They sometimes explain medical science, that blood corpuscles are changing, do they not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are sometimes white, they say, suppose when I am injured, my external something hurts. They say the white blood corpuscles are responsible to protect the body. But when the white blood corpuscles is not enough, then infection normally occurs.
Prabhupāda: Anyway there is change of corpuscles. And with the change of corpuscles there is change of body. That is scientific. Therefore body is changing every moment, so why not after death? Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherefrom the life came?
Karandhara: It's not started. It becomes suitable again for the spirit soul. So they come.
Kṛṣṇa-Kāntī: They're just changing the living conditions.
Karandhara: Like if you put honey, ants will come.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good example. That does not mean the honey is producing ants. If life is coming from matter then why you are putting chemicals? That is also matter. Life will come.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say, without the chemicals, they cannot see life.
Prabhupāda: The chemical is also matter. Just like with one matter you make... Just like we mix so many matters. Turmeric, salt, spices, they are all matter. But mixing together, the condition is that it becomes a sweet vegetable. Similarly, the chemical is also matter. And water is also matter. So if life comes from matter, then it will come from the water. Why...? There is no use of mixing another chemicals? And it will actually be: Then let the water remain for some time. When it will decompose, the life will come. The stagnant water, life will come. Just like in the ocean, there are so many lives are coming out. Who is going to put the chemical? Nonsense. Where you have got so much chemical? And you can find out tons and tons, millions of tons of fish, but nobody went to give there the chemicals.
Prabhupāda: What is that more? It is a simple fact. Just like yesterday, day before yesterday, day before that we saw that stool. We therefore criticize. You are seeing for the last three days the stool, it is not cleansed. But day before yesterday's body, yesterday's body is not this body. And my body has changed, but I remember. Therefore I'm eternal. This is the proof. Eternity means I'm so... my body's changing, but I'm not changing. Just like, I'm old man. I sometimes think, "Oh, I was jumping like this and now I cannot jump." So my body has changed. But I want to jump. But I cannot do it. So that jumping propensity is my eternal propensity. But due to this body, I cannot do it. This is (indistinct).
Karandhara: They would say that, according to their observations, that nature of eternity only lasts one body.
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness because, as this body... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As this body's changing in my experience, similarly, there's another change.
Prabhupāda: You are accepting millions of bodies and then die. That you do not know. I say that your body of yesterday is not of this body. So, similarly, if we live for one hundred years, how many bodies you are changing every moment? Just calculate.
Karandhara: Thirteen.
Prabhupāda: Ha? Thirteen? Why thirteen?
Karandhara: Every seven years.
Prabhupāda: No, no, every seven years. I say every second. Every second the blood corpuscles are changing. Is it not?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then you're chang... As soon as the blood corpuscle changes, you change your body. You do not know the science. So how many millions of birth you are changing even this experience?
Karandhara: That is their stumbling block. They say they want to be able to observe everything with their imperfect senses.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their folly, foolishness.
Prabhupāda: How is that you're not...
Krishna Tiwari: If nature moves, I move with it. If the nature makes me old, I get old.
Prabhupāda: You have here subjugation.
Krishna Tiwari: I am no... I'm a part of a... Nature is changing too. Nature is nothing which is, which is static.
Prabhupāda: Nature is not changing.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is changing.
Prabhupāda: Not changing.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, my belief is it's changing, and even Lord Kṛṣṇa says it changes.
Prabhupāda: No.
Krishna Tiwari: I think He does.
Prabhupāda: Nature is changing...
Krishna Tiwari: Ever-changing, ever-changing world is the theme of Lord Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Your knowledge is always changing, just like the Carbon 14 test. You say... You might has said a few months back, "Yes, I believe the earth is this old," and now you have to say, "No, I believe now the earth is half that old." So your knowledge is constantly changing.
Krishna Tiwari: Because that's better and better.
Śyāmasundara: Better and better. Have you improved the world? Do you think you've made one improvement in the world?
Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has. We have made better than what others, everybody else combined, Christ and everybody else combined did, and Lord Kṛṣṇa included.
Śyāmasundara: How do you measure that improvement?
Prabhupāda: Now, this is another point. First of all you must settle up this. (laughter). First of all we must settle up this fact, that we are all under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: I agree, Swamiji, completely.
Prabhupāda: Now the point is, we, we say the laws of nature is also given by somebody else. That is our point.
Prabhupāda: There it is. "I am prepared now to act according to Your whims." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When he was trying to act according to his whim, the necessity of instruction of Bhagavad-gītā was there. And when he heard Bhagavad-gītā, he's changed. "Now this is..., all doubts are gone. At last I will act according to your..." This is... Very important verse. Changing. Changing the whole picture. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Same Arjuna, same fighting, same battlefield, everything same, but still everything changed. The consciousness is changed. Externally nothing changed; internally changed. This change is equal for perfection.
Devotee (2): So one doesn't have to give up his...
Prabhupāda: No. Arjuna was a soldier, he was a fighter. The battlefield was there, the war was there, everything was there. He did not... He took to Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean he gave up the field and went away. He remained there, but simply the consciousness was changed. He was not willing to fight on his own account. He changed his opinion, "Yes, now I shall fight. By Your grace, my all doubts are now gone." This is required, this is perfection. And there's the picture how Kṛṣṇa is guiding Arjuna. When the ranks are formed.
Prabhupāda: Then you say that..., you say, "I know."
Mr. Wadell: But when I do not know something then I admit that I do not know it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That admission, that's all right. But in that case, one should not take the post of the teacher. That is our Vedic injunction. One must know perfectly.
Mr. Wadell: You may well be right. (laughter) But actually, I think there are many things which, about which knowledge is changing. There are things...
Prabhupāda: That means cheating.
Mr. Wadell: I see you have here, certain bits of equipment which didn't exist...
Prabhupāda: That is described in the Vedic literature: andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ: (SB 7.5.31) "A blind man is trying to lead other blind men."
Prabhupāda: Dreams mean that is also change of body.
Guest (5): It has nothing to do with the human...?
Prabhupāda: No, dream... Just like you forget about this body. Just you have forgotten what body you had in your last birth, similarly, the same experience daily happening. When you dream, you forget that you have got this body. And again, when you give up your dreaming, you come to this body, you forget in what body you were dreaming. So this is the proof that you are living entity, but the body's changing daily. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). But these rascals, they do not understand that there is the dehāntara. They are experiencing daily that there is dehāntara, but they do not have any education about this dehāntara.
Guest (5): (Sanskrit:) Viśvambhara para dṛśyamānaṁ nagarī tulyāṁ na janāntara-gataṁ, paśyam ātmani māyayā bahir ivodbhuḥataṁ yathā nidrayā, yaḥ sākṣād kurute prabodha sameya svātman eva advayam, tasmai śrī guru-mūrtyenam etaṁ śrī taksna mūrtaye.(?)
Prabhupāda: (chuckles.) Yes. So this education is wanting. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As soon as one understands that "I'll have to change my, this body; then what kind of body I'm going to get next life." That next inquiry will be. Then he is intelligent. Then he is intelligent. Just like one man is working somewhere. Now, notice is given that "From such and such date, your work will not be required." Then you become anxious to know: "Then what shall I do next." I have to work. So similarly, if a person understands that he's going to change this body... Just like I'm an old man. I'll have to change in, say, immediately, or say five years, ten years. But the notice is already there because I am old man.
Prabhupāda: So this is the remedy of bhavauṣadhi. Bhava. Bhava means to take birth. Bhava. This is called bhava-saṁsāra, this material world. Here bhava, you take birth, you live for some time, again you die, again take birth. This is going on. Therefore it is called bhava-saṁsāra, repeatedly taking birth and death in different species of life, different planets and different forms, 8,400,000 species, varieties. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151), we living entities, we are wandering in this way, changing different bodies, different situations, different position and in this way wandering up and down, brahmāṇḍa bhramite, within this universe. Sometimes in the upper, heavenly planet, sometimes down in the hellish planet. Sometimes as human being, sometimes as cat, dog. Sometimes brāhmaṇa, sometimes śūdra, like that. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that the living entities are wandering like this. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite. Bhramite means wandering. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. One fortunate person, guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151), by the grace of guru and by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one gets the seed of devotional service.
Prabhupāda: That... Again I am quoting that Professor Kotofsky. He said, "Swamiji, after this body there is no life." That is their conviction. This is the primary teaching of spiritual life, that we have got next life. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Dehāntaram. After giving up this body, you have to accept another body. This is the first lesson of spiritual education. But they do not understand the first lesson even. What is their spiritual understanding?
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
So dehāntara-prāptiḥ they do not understand. And it is very easy, that "I am, dehāntaram, I am changing my body. I was a baby, I was a child, I was a boy, I was a young man. So I have changed so many bodies. But I remember, I was a child. I remember. I was a boy. I remember. Therefore I am existing. My body has changed." Simple truth. Similarly, when this body will be changed, I will exist. Where is the difficulty to understand? But this plain thing they cannot understand. And they are passing as educated, philosopher, scientist.
Prabhupāda: Those who are advanced in devotional service, they accept this principle. But why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Because he is the most confidential servant, representative. Vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam. This is, we pray, offer our prayers to our spiritual master. So it is very nice. You are attempting. I am very glad. So you can inquire from me anything. The first thing I shall request you, the first principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or the first ABCD of spiritual education, is to understand the constitutional position of the living entity. He is, he is spirit soul. He's not this body. The spirit soul is living within this body, but the, the body's not the spirit soul. This thing must be understood very clearly. You know, in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Dehinaḥ, the proprietor of the body, is within this body. Dehinaḥ asmin dehe yathā. And the body is changing, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, like that. So when this body will be useless, we will take another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. This first education of spiritual life should be understood first. Then one can make progress. Then one can understand what is the constitution of God, what is our relationship with Him. But if, so long we shall remain under the bodily concept of life, this subject matter will remain difficult.
Prabhupāda: Now, this spirit is eternal. That is the first understanding. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). This spirit is occupying a material body at the present moment. And the next, when this... Just like I am in this apartment. If I find some inconvenience, I go to another apartment. Or the lease is expired, I have to leave it. Some way or other, I change. Similarly, the... You can change your coat. So these are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). Ex..., very nicely exemplified. So we are changing this apartment or dress and accepting another. This is going on. This is the material world. But I, the spirit soul, eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇo na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Find out this verse. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. Second Chapter. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you can introduce, study some Bhagavad-gītā among the students, oh, it will, it will be a great service.
Revatīnandana: "No person except He's like me."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the Vedic scripture says, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). His person is different. Sac-cid-ānanda. That is not exactly with our personality. This is material. This is temporary personality. Now I am man. Next time I may become dog, Next time become demigod. It is changing. It is not eternal, sat. So God is not like that. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). He does not come here being forced by the material energy. He comes by His spiritual energy. Sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā. Find out this. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Therefore, as soon as He's accepted as ordinary man, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11). He does not know what is the power behind that.
Prabhupāda: But that body is no longer there; your childhood body, that is not existing. Now you are existing in a different body. So you were existing, that's a fact. Because you remember. But that body's not existing. Similarly, when this body will not exist, you'll exist. This is natural conclusion. Your, that childhood body is no longer existing. Your youthhood body is no longer existing. That's a fact. And it is also a fact that you had such and such body. Therefore you, as the soul, you are permanent, even changing so many types of bodies. Similarly, the conclusion should be when you give up this body, you'll be in another body.
Prabhupāda: Just for example, that in the Ten Commandments, the first Commandment is "Thou shall not kill." So when I ask any Christian gentleman, "Then why you are killing?" they cannot give me any satisfactory answer. (pause)
Revatīnandana: How does the, how does the process of animal slaughter in the slaughterhouse as we find it today, how does it fit in your philosophy for, say, changing the society? Where do you put that in your philosophy?
Schumacher: Well, I think one should try and do without it. You can't everywhere do without it. It's like all nonviolence. It's a direction of movement, to try to do your utmost to go as far as...
Revatīnandana: So wherever possible, the slaughtering business should not go on.
Schumacher: That's right. But the Eskimos, for instance...
Prabhupāda: That is another thing.
Prabhupāda: No. India, India at the present moment, they have lost their culture. In India, five thousand years ago, when Maharaja Pariksit was there, one black man was trying to kill a cow. He immediately took his sword, the king. So "Who are you? You are killing cow in my kingdom?" The same India, the government is sanctioning ten thousand cows to be killed daily. So India is not the same India. India has lost its culture. You see? Therefore they are suffering.
Woman: But everything is changing. Not only India is changing, every country is...
Prabhupāda: So every country is suffering. Just they are suffering in one way.
Devotee (1): California is suffering...
Prabhupāda: Suffering another way. Nobody is, is free from suffering. I have already explained. There are three kinds of suffering. So who is free from this suffering? You may not be suffering from any bodily disease, but you may be suffering from mental agony. You may not be suffering from mental agony, but you may suffer, suffering imposed by others. There are so many suffering. This place is suffering. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. This place is for suffering.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I am simply explaining what Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā. I am acting on His behalf. I am acting on His behalf. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that there is no more higher authority than Him. I am speaking to my students: "There is no more higher authority than Kṛṣṇa." So, in other words, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's statement and my statement.
Reporter: I understand. But you know that if you want for changing society you must have a force...
Yogeśvara: You need the strength to change society.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: You have to have sufficient strength to change society.
Prabhupāda: I may not have sufficient strength. I can... If I can convert a dozen of people, that is my success.
Reporter: I think, I think...
Prabhupāda: And if you want to know our socialistic idea, I can give you.
Prabhupāda: ...purpose is not to propose only. Because I wish that there are so many scient..., scientific men, philosophers and thoughtful men... Suppose even if I ask you, what is your answer, that what is the purpose...? The cosmic manifestation is there, the universe is there, and there are innumerable planets within this universe, and they are very organizely kept. Everything is nicely going on. The sun is rising in due time. The moon is rising in due time. The seasons, seasons are changing. There is nice organization. So is it not a bona fide inquiry to, "What is the purpose of this organization?"
Dr. Inger: Well, the purpose is to understand oneself in relation to the cosmos.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: American, they cheated the Red Indians. They got the land. Now they are claiming, "It is my land." But where you got this land? You have cheated the Red Indians, and you claim now it is your land. "Nobody should come here." Everywhere that is there it belongs to... Napoleon, he thought, "France is mine." France is there. Where he has gone, the proprietor? Yes. And with this idea he fought so much. Now nobody knows what he has become, where he is living, either in France or in hell, maybe in heaven. But there are so many places and so many forms of life. And our Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptiḥ. Just like I am now in this body. Child is in this body. So all of us sometimes were in this body, childish. So where is that body? That body is not existing. But I am existing; you are existing. You know that you had such a body. You were also playing like this child. I also remember. So the body is not existing. I am existing. So I have got a different body now. So where is the difficulty to under-stand that when this body is also finished I get another body? Where is the difficulty? And Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptiḥ. As we are changing from one body to another, another, another, even within our experience, similarly, as soon as this body is finished, I get another body.
Yogeśvara: She, she asks you for an explanation of an event that happened to her sister. Her sister died at the age of five and a half years. And just before her death she apparently was able to explain some of her past lifetimes to her mother, that she had formerly been a princess or of noble birth and that now she was being called. Is there some explanation for that?
Prabhupāda: Yes, she remembers of her last birth. That is quite possible. Because we are changing body. So one who can remember about his past life, they are called jāta-smaraṇa.
Yogeśvara: Jāta-smaraṇa?
Prabhupāda: One who can remember about his past life. (break) ...means forgetting everything of the past life. (break) ...times a person remembers.
Yogeśvara: She asks for a definition of the word "occult." What is something that is occult, something occult or mystic? What is it?
Prabhupāda: Mystic?
Yogeśvara: Mystic. What is mysticism?
Prabhupāda: I do not say anything on mysticism. Mystic, something. It is called rahasya.
Graham Hill: You believe then, in that we come back, rebirth again in another form.
Prabhupāda: Yes, transmigration. Just like you also were a boy like him, but where is that body? There is no... That body, that is finished. But you exist, you remember that you were a boy like him. You remember that boy's childhood body. So that body is finished but you are not finished. So therefore you, the soul, is eternal. You are simply changing body. This is called death. Death means changing the body. As soon as the body becomes old enough, no more youthful, then you die. Die means to change the body just like you change your garment. When the garment is no more useful, then you change to another garment. That is truth. vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). (aside:) You come here. Just like jīrṇāni, when old garment, no more youthful, you change it to a new garment. (aside:) Come here, find out vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya.
Graham Hill: (indistinct) what sort of body we have been in in the past?
Prabhupāda: Yes, in the past. You forgot, but in the past you had life. Just like in the past I was young man. That's a fact. Similarly, but that young body is no more existing. Similarly, I had a past life but I have forgotten. That is the... Forgetfulness is our nature. Death means forgetting what was your first, past life. That is by nature you become forgetful because if you remember our past life and compare with this life... Suppose one was very rich man and if he becomes a poor, a cat and dog, then if he remembers, then it is very unbearable for him. Therefore nature helps him to forget. Forget. Otherwise he cannot do it. But the real problem is that we are eternal soul, we are changing our body one after another, birth and death. Apart from worldly happiness and distress, this birth and death, that is not very good process. At death time we have to suffer so much that we give up this body. And then again we enter into the womb of a mother.
Graham Hill: Are all spiritual bodies the same? I mean, is your spiritual body exactly the same as...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Spiritually you are all the same. Just like as human beings you are all the same but you may have a black dress, I may have a saffron dress, he may have white dress. This is outward covering. This is not myself. Similarly, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Within this body the spirit soul is there and he is changing different types of bodies. So when he accepts a process, this going back to home, back to Godhead, to Kṛṣṇa, then he hasn't got to accept any more material body. He remains in his own spiritual body. And spiritual body by original constitution it is eternal. Eternal. Nityaṁ śāśvato 'yam, na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin. This is a description of it.
Guest (1): Right, I will do something about it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So... We... This is the first step of spiritual understanding. That one must know that he's not this body. Actually anyone can understand. It is a very simple thing. I'm not this body because I had many types of body, in this life also, a child's body, a baby's body, boy's body, youth's body. Now we have got different body. So the body's changing. That's a fact. The child, you do not possess any more that, your childhood body. It is gone. Your boyhood body—gone, your youth-hood body—gone. Now you have got a different body. So although the bodies are not existing, you are existing. That's a fact.
Guest (1): I see. Right, I'm beginning to understand that. Another thing I would like to know very much is that I feel, but have no proof, that I have experienced in my, in the things I do, which lead me to believe that my experiences based on a memory I don't understand which, which belongs to previous lifetimes. Now is that, a fa...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, previous life there was. Just like previously, you were a child. Previously, you were a boy. Previously you were a young man. So similarly, we had previous life. Previous life means not exactly in this body but another body. But I am eternal. I live either in this body or in another body. Just like I'm a person, I live in this apartment or any other apartment. The apartment may change, but the person who lives in the apartment, he does not change. Similarly, I am spirit soul. I am simply changing different apartments. But there is a life, because I am eternal, where I haven't got to change apartment. I get permanent residence.
Guest (1): I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are preaching. That is spiritual life. That you act in such a way that you haven't got to change any more apartment. Suppose, take for example, we were living in rented house. Now George has given us this house. Now we haven't got to change. It is a crude example. We can live until our death. Similarly, so long you are in material existence, you have to change this body, different types of body. But if you become fit for spiritual existence, you get rid or get out of this entanglement of changing bodies. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are teaching our people that "you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Live like that." (someone comes in) Come on. "Then you get permanent life."
Prabhupāda: That is our Vedic evidence. Whenever we speak something, immediately quote from Vedas. This is our process. If it is accepted by the Vedic process, then it is perfect. Just like in the law court. You are lawyer. You are arguing. When you quote from a judgement, previous judgement, it is accepted. Similarly, when you give authoritative statement support of your talking, then it is perfect. That is the way. Otherwise, what for these books are there? If it is mental speculation what is the use of these books? But as soon as we speak something, we immediately support by quoting from Vedic literature. And that is perfect. And now you have to possess little knowledge. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, how Kṛṣṇa is perfect. Kṛṣṇa is giving example side, by side. Yathā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, as there is the soul, there is the soul, asmin dehe, and he's having different types of bodies, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. He's changing body from childhood, boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, youth-hood to another state. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Where is the illogical presentation? This is scientific. For an intelligent man, this is scientific. And if he's still dull-headed, then what can be done? Kṛṣṇa gives example. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. As the soul is changing body, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, like that. Similarly, after finishing this body, it may be invisible to you, but the subtle body is there. We have got two kinds of bodies. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca (BG 7.4). This material, eight kinds of materials—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego.
Prabhupāda: Does it mean they like that some congregation of fools and rascals? Such a big professor, he does not know, he cannot understand even that there is life after death. He has to accept another body. As we are accepting different bodies. I was a child. You were a child. Then I became a boy. That is different body. Different consciousness also. A child, three-four years, he talks in a different way. A boy, ten-twelve years, he talks in a different way, and a young man, educated young man, he talks in a different way. So with the change of the body, the consciousness is changing. Is it not?
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Children, small children, they're just like animals. The cats and dogs, just they are playing, they're also playing like that. But he, he does not belong to that category because when he'll get..., he'll get another body in which he'll be intelligent. Another body, he'll be highly educated. Another body, he'll be doctorate. The cats and dogs, they'll have to wait to get that body. So with the body, we are changing our consciousness. So different body, different consciousness. Similarly, why not after death a different body, different consciousness? If you make progress. Yes. This is progressive. So that is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā: tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13).
Prabhupāda: Just like this is an apartment. So from this apartment, you go to another apartment. So it does not mean that this apartment has evolved to that apartment. I, the person, I create that apartment, or I prefer that apartment. Not that this apartment has evolved into that apartment.
Dr. Hauser: Yes, I can see what you mean. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Darwin's nonsense is there. He is changing the apartment. Apartment is becoming a different apartment. That is not a fact. Just try to understand. This room cannot develop into another room. But I, the resident of this room, I can go from this apartment to another apartment. Or I can create another apartment. This is evolution.
Dr. Hauser: And I can create a bigger apartment.
Prabhupāda: Yes, bigger, smaller, as I like. Not necessarily bigger. That is also another nonsense.
Dr. Hauser: And my intelligence might grow also.
Prabhupāda: Intelligence, maybe. But there must be means. You may be very intelligent, but if you have no means to erect another nice apartment, how it will?
Prabhupāda: He does not know. The apartment does not change. The owner of the apartment goes from one apartment to another. That he does not know. Therefore he's cheating. He does not, he has no perfect knowledge, and he's cheating. Cheater. He does not know. The soul, from the monkey's body is coming to human body. That is nice. Not that the monkey's body is changing into human body.
Dr. Hauser: But some of this cheating, as you call it, must have, have still been a great use to mankind because it has not been proven at the time when this theory has been evoked by some scientist, it has not been proven that he's right, but he works according to this principle that he has got, and then later...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is explained in Bhāgavatam that in the jungle one big animal is the leader of other animals. That's all. But they're animals. Is it not?
Dr. Hauser: But I don't really understand.
Prabhupāda: In the jungle, in the forest,...
Dr. Hauser: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...the lion is considered to be the king of animals. So lion is also animal, only big animal. That's all.
Prabhupāda: They don't accept any authority. Therefore they are changing Bible also, according to their whims. They don't accept authority. Therefore father, son, goes out of home. This is the basic principle of western civilization. They don't accept any authority. Everyone is his own authority. Now that contamination has come here. And nobody can be authority also, because if I accept somebody authority, he has not followed authority, so how he can be authority? Do you follow? Suppose if somebody respects his father, but father never followed any authority. So actually father is not authority. What do they say, authority? Organized religion? They protest organized religion? What is that?
Acyutānanda: Yeah, they protest organized religion. Anything in the society, Catholic Church...,
Prabhupāda: So nobody's now actually... This Christian world, they do not care for any pope. Hm. What do you think? And what is this pope? He's simply a post. He has no knowledge. Otherwise how he can tolerate? People are going against Bible. But the Pope does not understand that the in the Bible clearly it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." If he does not understand the simple truth then how he can become the head of his... So what is interpretation of the pope?
Prabhupāda: Seventy. Seventy. Yes, no, we were student at that time. So what they have done? They are changing, changing, changing. And I went to Moscow, I saw the people were not happy. There are so many things that is against one's psychological understanding. So many things. Therefore now they are going to hold some peace conference. Who told me? Oh, yes, Haṁsadūta. So without God consciousness, there cannot be any peace. That's a fact. Therefore our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is there. Tomorrow, when you are going?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Me? Tomorrow night. I'll come here tomorrow also.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I will give you some letters for Bali Mardana.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bali Mardana? (break)
Brahmānanda: At MIT. At other colleges I was present.
Prabhupāda: So that very time so I first of all asked the students, "Where is your technological department to find out the thing when a man is dead, and you replace it?" These were my subject matter. I talked. A man is working. (Aside:) come on. A man is working. All of a sudden he stops to work. So a motor car is working. All of a sudden it stops. So there are technologists who can repair the car and it will again start. That is technology. Now the man is working, stopped. So where is that technology to make it move again. That was... I spoke on this. So they very much appreciated. After my lecture they gathered round me. You remember that? No.
Prabhupāda: Spirit soul, new or old there is. But if you can prove by changing the heart you can increase the duration of life, then you can catch the spirit soul.
Karandhara: That they're not able to do.
Prabhupāda: That is their nonsense.
Bali Mardana: None of them have lived very long.
Prabhupāda: No, they cannot be. Because by karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1), by superior arrangement, karmaṇā, you have got this body. So you have to live within this body certain age. So if you change the body, new, that doesn't mean you prolong your life. That is not possible. It is the duration of life, that is considered. They are thinking by changing the heart they will increase the duration of life. That is not possible.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is some sort of artificial transmigration?
Prabhupāda: Yes, like that. That transmigration taken... That is already explained in Bhagavad-gītā. Just like a baby becomes a child, child becomes boy, boy becomes youth, like that. Transmigration it is going on continually. This is another type of transmigration. So it is a fact that by changing the heart the duration is not...?
Bali Mardana: No, most of them, they have lived, a very short times. But still is it a fact that the soul is transplanted from one body to another body?
Prabhupāda: That can be done, yes. Sometimes yogis, they can perform that better body, he transfers himself into that body. Just Śaṅkarācārya did, yes.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Because I said about authority... So this is fact. Now, in Russia the authority was the Czar. Now, after this Bolshevik revolution, Lenin became authority. That was his point. I said that you have to accept one authority. That you cannot change. That he said, that "Yes, that I accept, but authority has to be changed by revolution." And yes, we accept that. But the ult... When you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness authority, then there is no more necessity of change." Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Everyone is trying to achieve the greatest profit. So when he gets Kṛṣṇa, he is satisfied. No more profit. Final profit. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. So there is no more necessity of revolution because that is the ultimate peaceful condition. So if you do not come to the ultimate condition of peace, then this revolutionary method will go on, continue. There will be no cessation of revolution, one after, one... That is māyā, illusion. I am thinking by going a few steps, mirage, I will get the water. But there is no water at all. It is simply illusion. And as soon as you go a few steps forward, you see that the water has gone away, again, few steps forward. You go again. Again you see. This is going on. So animal, they go forward after the mirage. But a sensible man, he knows that "This is not water. It appears like water, but it is not water." Therefore we are making revolution, changing one authority from another, but we do not know they are not authorities. Real authority is Kṛṣṇa. That is their... Therefore it is called illusion or māyā.
Karandhara: So they say, "Well, we cannot see God." But they could not see the people in those past days either.
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot see the government, but when things are going nicely, you must accept, there is government. That is... When things are going on very nicely, regularly, the sun is rising regularly, the moon is rising regularly, the seasons are changing and the waves are flowing, everything, then you have to accept that there is government. And as we have got experience here in this material world... Government is impersonal, but that at the end there is a president. Similarly, the whole government, the complete government, may be impersonal in the beginning, but at the end there is a person, that Supreme Person, Bhagavān. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Yes. Paramātmā is representative of God. Just like the president has got so many representative governors, similarly, Paramātmā is the localized representative of God, and God is person, and the whole government is impersonal. This is the conception.
Prabhupāda: That is God. God is always existing. Not "come from." That is God. Nityo nityānām. You are also existing. This knowledge, they are lacking. Just like I am, you are, we are eternal. We are eternal. We are changing body. Because they do not believe or do not try to understand that I am not this body, therefore the whole mistake is there.
Devotee: The scientists would use the same argument. The scientists would say, "Well, since I have not experienced that I am eternal, therefore how can I accept that I am eternal?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, you are eternal. Because you were a child and now you are grown up, but you know that you were a child. Therefore you are eternal. You were a child, but you have no that child's body. Now you have got a different body. So although you have got different body, you know that you had a body like a child. Therefore body has changed. You have not changed. That is eternity.
Prabhupāda: Nobody wants to die.
Girirāja: If the soul is not eternal, where has that desire...
Prabhupāda: No. This is eternity. This is practical eternity. You have changed so many times your body, but you are the same person. Therefore you are eternal, in spite of changing body. This is simple argument.
Prajāpati: I used that argument once, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the scientists said to me, "It is the chromosomes, the tiny chromosomes that do that change."
Prabhupāda: That is their jugglery of words, these rascals. (laughter) "Chromosome, promosome." He will manufacture some word. But where is your chromosome of child body? What is that child body? Where it has gone? If you know, "chromosome, promosome," where has your child's body gone? That is the difficulty. These rascals, they do not know anything. Still, they are teachers and manufacture some jugglery of words. That's all. That is the difficulty. "Chromosome." What is that chromosome? What does it mean, chromosome?
Prajāpati: It is a tiny structure of organic matter that can constantly reproduce...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. When reproduce, the last body is gone.
Prabhupāda: That all right, but the father's body is different. The father's pains and pleasure and the son's pains and pleasure are not the same. It may be that the father has given the ingredient of the body, but that does not mean the father's body and the son's body the same. Neither the mind is same, neither intelligence is same. It is all different. Otherwise why a son becomes disobedient to the father, "I don't agree with you"? That means, "Your intelligence, your mind, is different from my mind. I cannot agree with you." Therefore everything is different.
Devotee: They can accept that our bodies are changing now, but in the next life they have no experience of this.
Prabhupāda: No, next life, this is experience. You were a child, this is your next life.
Devotee: They can see this body change, but the next life, they cannot see.
Prabhupāda: That means you have no... You cannot see so many things. Does it mean that it does not exist? What is the value of your eyes? That I already explained. You cannot see. Now it is a misty. You cannot see anything. Does it mean your eyes are perfect. How you can see? Your eyes are not perfect. What you cannot see, you have to hear. Suppose in a distant place I cannot see.
Prabhupāda: So these rascals will change every year their theology. So what is the value of their words? Childish. (break) ...changes, he is a rascal. That is our... We say, "Kṛṣṇa the Supreme." We never change it. And "Surrender is the only process." We shall never change it. In any circumstance we will not change it. That is the difference. And these rascals will change every year their opinion. They are rascals. (break) ...They are rascals. (break) Kṛṣṇa said that "I am the Supreme." So Arjuna accepted, the Supreme. All the ācāryas accepted the Supreme. Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted, Supreme. My Guru Mahārāja accepted, Supreme. I am accepting, Supreme. I am teaching the same thing. So there is no change. Not that after a few years it will be changed. That never be. That is our position. (break) Changing means material. Anything material is susceptible to change. Like this material body. I am changing my body, but I am the spirit soul. I am not changing. That is the difference. So all these so-called theologicians, they have no idea what is spiritual knowledge. All rascals. They cannot understand what is God. That I have explained. Simply speculating. It will not help. (break) (Hindi) (some Indian people have joined the walk) Now we are talking of one theologician. Some years ago just... Narrate the... Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, that is very rarely. Sugrīva forgot. Anyway, there is chance of such thing because the distressed man, although he is pious, as soon as his distress is moved, then he forgets. There is such chance. Therefore ārto arthārthī jñānī jijñāsuḥ. Four classes of men. So ārto arthārthī. They, after benefiting by the grace of God, they may forget. But those who are jñānī, they will not forget. That is the difference. So these theologicians, they are changing their opinion. What is that, Karandhara, you said?
Karandhara: Well, another very prominent psychiatrist and theologian, about ten years ago he wrote a very famous book wherein he said that people should give up the idea of evil and sin because it is just an inhibition on the mind. But now he just wrote another book saying that he was wrong, and since people have given up the idea of sin and evil, the whole world has degraded to such a bad state that now, even though there may not be a God, they should still believe in evil just to keep things in order.
Prabhupāda: Then if there is no God, then who will judge what is evil and what is right? If there is no God? People are abiding the law, "Keep to the right, keep to the left," because they know, "Behind this order, there is government." If he does not keep the arrangement, then he will be punished. So as soon as you accept the principles of bad and good, then you have to accept God. Now, this kind of theologician, some years ago his opinion was something, and now his opinion is different.
Guest (1): I think they keep on changing their opinion according to the world condition...
Prabhupāda: So that is not perfect.
Guest (1): And when they see that the conditions and the things in the world as they are, they don't fit in with their theories, then they change their theories.
Prabhupāda: No. So they are opportunists. They are not learned scholar. Our proposition is that five thousand years ago Kṛṣṇa taught that "I am the Supreme." So Arjuna accepted, paraṁ brahma, paraṁ dhāma: (BG 10.12) "Yes, You are Supreme." Then all the ācāryas later on, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, even Śaṅkarācārya, all accepted. "Yes," kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Then after that, ācārya system, Lord Caitanya accepted, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord." So after Caitanya, five hundred years, all the ācāryas, they are accepting. So we are accepting or teaching the same thing. No change, no change. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. If there is change, that is not nitya, that is not śāśvata. That is circumstantial. That is material.
Nalinīkaṇṭha: (break) ...will be overthrown and replaced with God conscious beings.
Prabhupāda: No. I am not talking of any government. We are not in politics. We are talking of preaching. Why? Why this government should you try to change. Where is the better replacement? First of all find out the better replacement. Then you talk of changing. Where is the better replacement? To replace one rascal with another, that is not... Now democratic government, if the people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then naturally their leader will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So automatically it will change. There is no question of violence. What is the use? Now, suppose by violence you become the president of the United States. Will you be able to do something?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: No.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is material life. We are rounding sometimes this way, sometimes that way, and we are thinking "new." (devotees laugh) Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona (CC Madhya 19.151). In this way you are wandering all over the universe. Find out something new. But there is nothing new. Everything is old. (break) ...a living entity is offered change of the body. You see? When he becomes fatigued of this life, "It's so troublesome"—old men generally think like that. So he has to change another, another new body, child. Since born he is taken care, he thinks "Now, I have got so comfortable life." And again becomes old, disgusted, so he cannot live disgusting, therefore Kṛṣṇa is so kind: "All right, change body again." Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Chewing the chewed. The business is the same, but changing body gives some relief. Just like these men, the business is they're wasting time by changing, wasting time at home, come to the golf club. That's all. The business is the same—wasting time, either here or there. Kṛṣṇa is giving so much facilities. Sometimes, "All right, you become tree." "All right, some, become a serpent," "All right, you become a demigod," "All right, you become a human being," "All right, you become king," "You become a cobbler," "You go to the heavenly planets," "Go to the hellish planets." Varieties is there. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that He's changing varieties, atmosphere of life.
Prabhupāda: They are so good Christian that at the time of danger, they're all going away to Canada. Just see-afraid of death, even though they are preaching themselves, priest, they are also the same common man, afraid of death. And if we people keep to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are not afraid of death. For going from one place to another, that's all. Going home, nobody becomes afraid going back to home. He becomes pleased. (break) You avoid death, there is no death. Viṣaya.(?) If we simply practice this, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma... No more death. Finished death. This is a fact. (break) ...or do something for Kṛṣṇa. Don't waste time, single moment. Then your... No more death. Because this is deathless condition. And the changing of the body, that is momentary, that is all.
Bali Mardana: So our service is deathless.
Prabhupāda: Ah? Deathless...
Bali Mardana: Devotional service.
Prabhupāda: ...yes, this is deathless position.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that a sensible man is that "I am controlled. I am controlled by some other agent of Kṛṣṇa. So why not be controlled directly by Kṛṣṇa." This is sense. I cannot be independent. Just like the government. If somebody says, "I don't agree to be controlled by you," then government will kick with police, with military. That is our position. We are being kicked by the agent of government, material nature. We are desiring in different way to become controller or enjoyer, and we are being offered different facilities, means different types of body, birth and death. So because they have no sense, they have accepted this process. So by the force of nature... "You wanted to desire. You desired this thing. All right, take this body. You wanted to eat without discrimination. All right, take this body of a pig and eat up to stool." That is nature's gift. So therefore he's changing. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kono bhāgyavān jīva. He's going on changing, this dress that dress, that dress, that dress, that dress. But he's not in sense that "How I can stop this change?" That he doesn't know. Now, as Americans, they have so many nice facilities, but you cannot enjoy them. By nature's force, you'll have to change. What you can do? Today you are living on the twenty-fourth floor of this skyscraper, and tomorrow you may become a rat in that room. How you can change it? It is not in your power. The rat is also in the same room and you are also in the same room. Who has made this arrangement?
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Why not?
Guru dāsa: Next month is again rental, rent time. I paid him six months in advance previously. So it would go to February. Because I knew that the Śaivite was changing, so I wanted to do like that. Next month is again, March 1st, payment...
Prabhupāda: But whenever you give money, you must take receipt in this printed.
Guru dāsa: Yes. Printed receipt.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Printed form.
Guru dāsa: So I should again pay to Gauracand Gosvāmī? I think so.
Prabhupāda: This, this, this (indistinct) complete...
Guru dāsa: But that, that will be complete soon. Saurabha says it will be complete soon.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Next time I, when I come...
Prabhupāda: In the temple.
Dr. Patel: Not only that. They were, I mean, doing all that money-changing and taking bribes and all that. I think he...
Prabhupāda: Well, that is professional... It is not very. So everyone takes bribe and everyone is interested in money than anything. That is not very great fault. You see. When you are in the material world, you require money. That is fact.
Śyāmasundara: Something like that. It's called a "think-tank". She's named it. It's presided over by Lord, Lord Goodman.
Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is, unless the people are Kṛṣṇa conscious, either this board or that board, that will not help. First of all, people should know what is the aim of life, what is culture, how the human activity should be directed. The people should know first of all this. Otherwise, changing from frying pan to the fire, it is useless. That is going on. That change, revolution, is going on. Just like the Russian people, they changed the Czarist government into communist government, revolution, but still, they're unhappy. They're trying to change by another revolution. This is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). This is described in the śāstra as "chewing the chewed." Or the same simple philosophy: "This side of stool is better than that side." So he keeps the whole thing, stool. "This side, the dry side, is better and the moist side, wet side, is bad." This is no philosophy. It, it must not be stool. It must be gold. Then it is all right, this side or that side.
Prabhupāda: They did not take sannyāsa, but they left home. There is no need of accepting sannyāsa. One has to perform the devotional activities. That is real thing. Simply by changing dress, one does not improve. Unless he takes to the, seriously, principles of devotional service. But in the Kali-yuga, they'll think, "Because I have changed my dress, I have become a big sannyāsī." You see? "Because I have got a sacred thread, now I am a brāhmaṇa." No. There must be regular training. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in a varṇāśrama society is...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jagadīśa: In a varṇāśrama society, are most of the citizens śūdras?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jagadīśa: Are the majority of citizens śūdras? In a varṇāśrama society?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The number of śūdras are always bigger. Just like in University education. The, the number of graduates and post-graduates, they're less. Others are big, number bigger.
Prabhupāda: Therefore this example is given: ass. For nothing, not for himself. He'll be given a little grass. The grass is available here. But still, he's engaged. Employment. Ass will reap, eat little grass. Grass is available everywhere. But still, he'll work for others, loading, overloading. This is ass. He has no sense, "So why I have taken so much overload? I can get grass anywhere. Let me remain free." But he has no such sense. Neither he will be allowed. (laughs) This is ass. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... (break) ...there are many bābājīs. They are collecting cāpāṭis and smoking bidi, and have one or two women. That's all. It is going on. So they should be drawn: "Come on! Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take the plough." Not that you become Rūpa Gosvāmī simply by smoking. They are thinking they have become Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rūpa Gosvāmī lived like that. So they think by changing the cloth, loincloth, they have become Rūpa Gosvāmī. And whatever nonsense they like, they can do. (break) ...taken and all these bābājīs should be employed, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and draw plough." Then it will be nice.
Prabhupāda: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11). That Kṛṣṇa is so powerful that He can come in a spiritual body. Otherwise how He remembers millions of years. If His body's changing, it is material, then how He can remember?
Mr. Sar: Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā... (BG 7.25).
Prabhupāda: Ah. Yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ... Therefore He's not manifest except to the devotee.
Mr. Sar: Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25).
Prabhupāda: Again, mūḍha and mūḍha comes. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: That's all right, Dhanañjaya. You can take, Dhanañjaya. Not that general people.
Dr. Patel: But that is what He says, that "I am you." Kṛṣṇa says...
Prabhupāda: Not you, Dhanañjaya. "You" means... Why you are changing the word? No, no, it is said, Dhanañjaya. You say Dhanañjaya.
Dr. Patel: Pārtha, Dhanañjaya, He is...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And after...
Dr. Patel: But he is talking with Dhanañjaya.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You cannot make it an impersonal. As soon as you say Dhanañjaya, He is person.
Prabhupāda: Aneka. There are aneka ayuddhas. Every Viṣṇu form has four symbolic representation—śaṅkha-cakra-gadā-padma—and they are differently situated. People do not know it. They... It begins. Just like here śaṅkha, then next, cakra, then next, gadā, then padma. Then here begins padma, here begins śaṅkha, in so many.
Chandobhai: Differently.
Dr. Patel: Combination, combination.
Prabhupāda: Yes, changing. These are in the śāstra, siddhārtha-saṁhitā, how many forms are there. This is aneka. Not evasively, that "All is one." No. There are so many, so many varieties, variegated, all spiritual, aneka.
Girirāja: "Mālya-garlands..."
Prabhupāda: These things are there. Each of them were garlanded, had helmets, had, I mean to say, ornaments. Everything aneka.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...win's theory is that from that lower animals to go to the higher animals, but in the creation we find Brahmā is the first creation. So he is the topmost intelligent man.
Bhāgavata: Is there anything in the Vedic literature which supports Darwin's theory?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not Darwin's theory. Darwin's theory is no explanation that whose evolution? Evolution is of the soul. The soul is changing in different bodies, one body better than the other. That kind of evolution.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...deliver each and every child to Kamsa, but in the case of Kṛṣṇa he did not do so. He did not deliver. He cheated him by changing. So to give protection to Kṛṣṇa, they had to do something, even it is not sanctioned. He violated because he promised before Kaṁsa that "I shall deliver all the children," and he did it. But when there was Kṛṣṇa, he broke the promise.
Śrīdhara: "Vasudeva continued, 'My dear friend it is very difficult...' "
Prabhupāda: Therefore Vasudeva is very jubilant that Kṛṣṇa is now alive and His birthday ceremony has been performed. Therefore he is so pleased.
Prabhupāda: This human life is especially meant for solving all the problems of live. There are so many problems of life, but the four problems, as indicated in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam... (BG 13.9). People have no knowledge how to stop birth, death, old age and disease. Because every living entity is eternal. That we learn from Bhagavad-gītā. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The living entity does not die even after the annihilation of this gross body. This is the first knowledge to understand. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to transmigrate from this body to another body. As I have transmigrated already from my childhood body to boyhood body, boyhood body to youth-hood body, now I am in a body very old, so similarly, as I am existing in spite of changing so many types of body, similarly, after changing this body, I will have to accept another body. This is the fact. But the modern education, they do not know it, neither they believe, even the practical example is there. And who is giving the example? The most authoritative Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. And there are so many different varieties of bodies.
Prabhupāda: To teach how to get rid of this disease of birth, death and old age. That is guru's business. That is also father's business, that is also guru's business, or the caretaker's business, the government's business. Because this human life is meant for getting out of these clutches of māyā, constantly, repeatedly changing body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), bhūtvā pralīyate. This business should be stopped. Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyuṁ gurur na sa syāt. Śāstra says, "One should not be guru if he cannot deliver the disciple from the chain of birth, death, old age and disease."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mahāṁsa: And the other sampradāyas also?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Chain must be there. Now, whether strictly following the..., that is another thing.
Pañcadraviḍa: (break) ...invited us to their program at Udupi, Madhva-sampradāya. When they are changing the ācāryas every two years, they extended one invitation to come for their program, main temple program.
Prabhupāda: So why did you not accept?
Pañcadraviḍa: There was no transportation available.
Prabhupāda: Transportation?
Mahāṁsa: Should we go to such programs, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: If they invite, why not? That means they recognize. But one thing, you be certain whether this Tirupati temple is going to allow our men.
Prabhupāda: They are fools, all set of fools. Useless. See one thing and write one thing. Then you are not perfect. Bhrama pramāda. You commit mistake. Therefore your instruction is useless, useless. Because you commit mistake, therefore your instruction is useless. And that actually they are doing. As it is suitable, they are changing the words of Bible. They are useless. Things which are changeable, that cannot be accepted as scripture. Scriptural injunction means you cannot change. Just like we accept the Vedic scripture but don't change it. That example I have given many times. Because Lord Buddha wanted to change Vedic literature, therefore he is rejected. Although Lord Buddha is so... We worship him as incarnation of..., but he was rejected. You cannot change. Immediately you are rejected.
Prabhupāda: ...bindu sama, suta mitā ramaṇī samāje, sohe viṣere mana, tahe samarpala, ābrahma yuga hobo kono kāj.(?) This is Vidyāpati's song, that "We are seeking water in the desert." Taṭala saikata. Saikata, means the sandy beach and very hot. So then water is required. But we get little water. What is that? Suta mitā ramaṇī samāje. In the society, friendship and love, we are seeking that happiness, and it is exactly like seeking water in the desert. Although there is little happiness, but what is the comparison? Vāri bindu sama. I want water, but it is a drop of water. Vāri bindu. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So when there is requisition of water like seas and ocean, what this one drop will do? He admits there is little happiness, but this happiness is nothing that we want in comparison. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Taṭala saikata, vāri bindu sama, suta mitā ramaṇī samāje, tahe viṣere mana, tahe samarpala, havana yughamala na kāj. Mādhava āmāra pari nama nirasa (?): "Therefore, my Lord Kṛṣṇa, I see my future is hopeless, and therefore I surrender unto You. There is no other way." Mādhava āmāra pari nama nirasa, tuhu jagad taraṇa, dīna dayāla, ataeva tohari varosa (?), that "I have no other hope. Simply hope you are." Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...is better, the breathing air. That side is...
Indian Man (1): Now the wind is changing, this side.
Prabhupāda: This side is pūrva.
Indian Man (1): No, this is east. This is north.
Prabhupāda: Oh, north. So here, this is pūrva...
Indian Man (1): The rains will come from southwest.
Prabhupāda: Southwest, oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: And that is absolute. When he goes back to home, back to Godhead, that is absolute. So long he is in the material world, changing body, transmigrating from one body to another, that is not absolute plane. That is the duality plane, dualism. When we go back to home, back to..., in the spiritual world, that is absolute.
O'Grady: When he goes back to his original.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. That is the position. That is absolute.
O'Grady: So you don't find it possible to achieve any absolute condition in our time?
Prabhupāda: No. In the material world it is not possible. This is the world of duality. Therefore so many different varieties of unity is suggested, but they are all failure. Just like when we were students in 1917, so there was League of Nations. And after that again there was war.
Devotee: Why is it that the rains come in certain parts of the world and in other parts people do not have enough?
Prabhupāda: No, no part of the world is nowadays sufficient rain. Because they are not performing yajña. Sometimes it is seen that over-rain, overflood, not systematic. But if you perform yajña, there will be systematic rainfall, which you can utilize properly. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14).
Devotee: Kīrtanānanda Swami says that in New Vrindaban the weather is changing every year. It is getting nicer there. Much more sun and the winter is not so hard.
Atreya Ṛṣi: In New Vrindaban it's getting better.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because there are so many devotees. The people are still being maintained on account of our chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.
Devotee: By the grace of pure devotee.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...encouraging in our society to take to agriculture to support this center. I am purchasing land in Vṛndāvana and Māyāpur to become self-sufficient. Whatever production you make, you be satisfied. Little vegetable, little grain and little milk. That is sufficient.
Prabhupāda: That you may think, but you do not know the nature's law. You have to accept. Just like this apartment, either you accept or somebody accept. Similarly, these bodies are apartment. You have to accept or your brother has to accept. Somebody must accept. They are also living entities. Wherefrom they are coming? As I am a living entity, they are also living entity. So changing body, I may change to that body, he may change to this body. Where is the unreasonableness? We are all living entities. These are different types of bodies. So we have to accept some body. Similarly, he has to accept some body. So he may accept my body, I may accept his body. This apartment change. I may go to this apartment, he may go to another apartment. But there are so many apartments, gṛha. Therefore it is called gṛhamedhī. If you say, "No, no, I am not going to accept that apartment." "No, no, it is not your judgement." Daiva-netreṇa. "What money you have got, sir, to occupy?" "I have no money." "All right, then go this apartment." You must accept.
Prabhupāda: But is that very good intelligence? Suppose you are searching after one million dollars. You are working little by little, little, and if somebody says, "Here is one million dollar. You take it," Why don't you take it? (French)
Yogeśvara: He says it's a moral question. He already has his guru, and his guru has died. He's gone over to the other side, and he can't change gurus.
Prabhupāda: But there is no question of changing guru. If he is actually searching after the truth, then why he is denying the truth when it is delivered? (French)
Yogeśvara: He would have to be sure that it was the actual highest truth.
Dr. Sallaz: The real truth, eternal truth. Because you see...
Prabhupāda: That is... That we are... (French)
Yogeśvara: This is what the conclusion we came to yesterday with that other guest, that he says they have also find truths in China, they have also found truths in other scriptures.
Prabhupāda: So what is that truth? (French) (break) ...is that reality?
Yogeśvara: He says he himself, he doesn't have the words to describe it.
Prabhupāda: If you cannot describe the reality, then you have not received the reality. (French) (break) That means, as soon as you say you cannot describe, then you have no idea what is the reality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagad-īśa kāmaye: (Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4) "I don't want this." "Don't want, don't want, don't want" does not mean he becomes negative. "I want Kṛṣṇa. So many things, 'Don't want,' but actually I want Kṛṣṇa. And that is my life." And not that "Don't want, don't want, don't want, then become zero." Not that.
Yogeśvara: No, they also say we know what we want. We want food for everyone, we want...
Prabhupāda: No, no, he does not know. Therefore he is changing from this place to that place. He does not know. If he had known, then he would have surrendered immediately to Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect. He does not know.
Yogeśvara: But the idea is "We can accomplish the same good results even without Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: That he does not know. He is a fool. He does not know what is a good result. He will change again. He is a rascal. He is putting himself in this condition; again he'll desire another condition. That is the change of body. That is his wanting. Sometimes he's taking the body of a dog, sometimes he is taking the body of a demigod. Bhramatam upary adhaḥ (1.5.18). Down, just like, what is that? Merry-go-round.
Prabhupāda: That they do not know, that "I am changing this body, and I am getting temporary engagement and wasting my time. And... But my problem, the change of body, death, is there. The death is there. Therefore my real problem is how to stop this death." That we want also. We do not wish to die. That is our propensity.
Robert Gouiran: Are you interested to know how we produce anti-matter in our laboratories from...?
Prabhupāda: Anti-matter, I have explained that, this... So our anti-matter is different. Anti-matter means spirit. But your anti-matter is different.
Prabhupāda: So the cause of physical elements is spiritual energy, and the spiritual energy is... Both spiritual... Spiritual energy is coming from God. Just like... (aside:) Close. (sound of windows closing) Just like the sunshine is coming from the sun, and in the sunshine there are so many physical transformations. Is it not? In the sunshine... Just like we, ordinary men, we can understand. When there is absence of sunshine... In your western countries or in other..., the leaves of the tree falls down. And again, in the springtime, as soon as there is sufficient sunshine, immediately thousands of trees grows leaves. So there is action of sunshine. So sunshine is coming from the sun. And the sunshine is working in different ways, changing the color of the flowers, of the leaves, and... Or, so far I know, all the planets are, they're rotating on the sunshine heat. Eh? So therefore the sunshine is the original cause of all material, physical things. But wherefrom the sunshine comes? That comes from the spiritual energy. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi (Bs. 5.40). In the Brahma-saṁhitā. So that original cause is the spiritual energy. Therefore, because everything is coming from the spiritual energy, you can take everything as spiritual. The same example: like cotton is the original cause.
Prabhupāda: That's all. But your business is temporary healing. That's all.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: My spiritual master is trying to stress this evening that because we are eternal spirit soul that our real business is not with this temporary body or with temporary cures. And therefore, because we are involved with these temporary struggles, karṣati, we're simply struggling time and time again to make something permanent out of that which is always changing...
Robert Gouiran: How do you, why do you eat? It's taking a medicine. Food is a medicine.
Prabhupāda: But we don't say that is healing. Temporary relief, that's all.
Robert Gouiran: Eating is... You...
Prabhupāda: That is not relief. That is temporary appeasement. That is all.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So if they have information that this is not the only life, then won't they automatically become more austere?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct) consider what kind of life I'm going to get. (indistinct) They have made their own rascal philosophy that there is no life after death. Although they're experiencing that I am changing my body in this duration of life. I know that I have a child's body, child's body. That body's finished. Still I'm existing. So why I shall not exist after this body's finished? Where is the logic? Where is the... The simple logic they cannot understand. So dull brain. And they're advanced in civilization, big, big professor, big, big Indologist, this logic. The simple reason they cannot understand. What did they say? You have talked to many men about this logic?
Guru-gaurāṅga: About life after death?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You have got?
Devotee: I think so.
Man: (French)
Jyotirmayī: He would like to know if to instruct young Christians to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa will be helping them attain the highest perfection or if it is changing their religion.
Prabhupāda: No. We are recommending "Chant the holy name of God." So if you have got the holy name of God, you can chant that.
Jyotirmayī: (French)
Man: (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that in Christianity God has no name.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jyotirmayī: God has no name in Christianity, but the son of God has a name. And before they use for a long time, and everywhere they were saying the name of Jesus Christ.
Prabhupāda: But they say that in Christianity there is a name of God. They say. No?
Jyotirmayī: So he said that here in France, the Christians, they are now reviewing their own Christianity, their own philosophy, because they see that the materialistic people, they are giving critiques, and they are right in their critiques. So they are changing their religion.
Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying that religion has to be defined according to the way the mass of people accept it.
Prabhupāda: That is not religion. That is sentiment. (French)
Devotee: (To Prabhupāda, as Frenchman speaks in French:) They're on the phone speaking with Brahmānanda Mahārāja.
Jyotirmayī: So he says that those who have been just religious and working for the independence, they didn't do any real good.
Prabhupāda: Now, first of all, our proposition is what does he mean by religion? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that there cannot be an abstract definition of religion, but only the experience of religion.
Prabhupāda: No, we have got definition of religion. Let him learn from us.
Prabhupāda: I am feeling. Old man.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Would you like this blanket also, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa...
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So as soon as the modes of nature are no longer working on the spirit soul, then he experiences that he's no longer changing his body?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā dura... mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14).
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: By taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The thing is that if I am so much susceptible to the contamination of māyā, the modes of material nature, then if I waste my time in material advancement of life, is it not risky?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Very risky.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is very simple thing. Just like a body is moving, and body is not moving. So there is an active principle which makes the body moving, and when it is absent, it is not moving. Now, the question will be: "What is that active principle?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā. First of all let him distinguish what is the difference between this dead body and living body. If a student is unaware of it, he can see that on account of the active principle, the body is changing, the body is moving, and in the absence of the active principle, neither the body changes, neither moves. Just like in our childhood we used to think that the gramophone box, there is a man, and he is speaking from the box. This is a childish suggestion only, but similarly, anyone can think that within this body there is something which is making the body moving. It is not very big philosophy.
Professor Durckheim: Yes, but this is a very good example because the dream of the tiger comes very often. And it always means that you are pursued by some of your inner instincts, yourself. So you discover in the image of the tiger something which is not right in yourself.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that experience is also material. That is not spiritual experience. That experience is going on continually so long we are materially attached. Because in the material world we are constantly changing our body. Your experience in childhood is different from the experience at this time. So as we are changing our body, we are getting different experiences, and all those experiences are photographed within the mind. And they sometimes come out and make an intermixture, and we see dreams and so many contradictory things. This is going on, mental speculation. That is hovering on the mental plane. That is not spiritual plane.
Prabhupāda: Must separate, must separate.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Either through death or destiny.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is called death. You separate from this body; you accept another body. This period is called death. (German) So the body which you occupied previously, that is false now. Now the body which you have occupied now, that is important now. So you are giving stress on the body which I am changing after few years. That is the problem, misunderstanding.
Professor Durckheim: I think it would be important for us all to know what you would say to the question, "How to realize the last truth, and what do you mean by realize the eternal truth?"
Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break)
Vedavyāsa: He said that in the Bible it is said that our aim should be to know the father.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only the aim but the life consists in this, to know the father, God, by this... (indistinct)
Professor Durckheim: That is exactly what you say, that real life, real eternal life, means nothing but to recognize the father in the son.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real business. And we have created so many unnecessary, superfluous business. We have set aside the real business, to know the father. And that is the mistake of this civilization.
Prabhupāda: So long they do not come to the standard platform, they will accept this sometimes and that sometimes. This will go on, changing.
Prof. Pater Porsch: No, but I meant it differently. Can it not be that average man in the street... I don't mean... Yes, it was, of course, in Germany. Man in the street now is infected from the...
Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: And he thinks that in order to give a rational presentment, (German) (break)
Professor Durckheim: ...I realize that the closer members engaged, really, in this work of distributing books and chanting, wearing the white robes and shaving the heads, they are the closer participants I suppose. And then have you also members of your movement which are simply in their work, in the community, in the world? Or is...
Prabhupāda: No, we invite everyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like if you contaminate some disease, then you must develop that disease. Similarly, if your mind is contaminated with some material designation, then you have to.... By nature's law. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). Because mind associated with a particular type of the modes of material nature, (indistinct). There are three qualities—sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa and mixed up. At first mixing it becomes nine and again mixing up it becomes 81. Each quality there are thousands and thousands of varieties and that means by mixing up these qualities there are 8,400,000 species of life. So, it is by the God's law, nature's law, they take account of the particular color and award the quality. It is not man-made law. That there may some mistake. There is no mistake. If you have contaminated this disease, whether small pox or whatever or (indistinct), you must develop. Therefore desireless. Desireless means material desires. Material desires begins with this designation. Just like the child, he has got a childish body and he plays like a child. The same child when he'll get a youthful body (indistinct). The soul is the same but on account of the type of the body, he is acting. This is material. Small child in the childhood talks like nonsense, people enjoy it. But the same child when he is grown up, if he talks like a nonsense, people will call him nonsense, rascal. Why? The body has changed, the circumstances have changed. This is (indistinct) that we have changed this body and on account of the bodily situation we are acting different. That they do not understand. There is not school or college, they do not know about the soul and soul changing different positions, different bodies. In this way he remains materially entangled and the real relief is to get out of this bodily consciousness and advance in spiritual life.
| Page Title: | Changing (Conversations 1968 - 1974) |
| Compiler: | SunitaS, Mayapur, Rishab |
| Created: | 07 of Aug, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=115, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 115 |