Prabhupāda: Whatever your occupation may be, that doesn't matter. But if you worship the Supreme Lord by your occupation, then you are successful. The florist supplies flower to the temple. The potter supplies pots to the temple. The priest chants mantra in the temple. The kṣatriyas, they protect the temple. He supplies the expenditure of the temple. Because the land belongs to the kṣatriya. They are royal class. Because they occupy land, so they have got the obligation to give protection to the country, fight. They shall fight. And here, at the present moment, the arrangement is that you have no land, you are landless, but you are called to fight. Why? This system is condemned system. The kṣatriyas, they are royal class, they possessed land, so they had obligation to protect the country. Therefore they were fighting. How nice arrangement. Those who are occupying administration of the country, they should fight. But they are sitting very nicely in their armchair and calling somebody, "Go and fight and be killed." This system is not scientific system. Therefore the caste system is very nice. They have now been condemned... Not condemned, but they want to revise it. But this is a very scientific system. Why? It is created by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). "I have created the four divisions of caste." It is not exactly caste; section, varṇa. So how you can stop? It is natural.
Caste system (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Śyāmasundara: Well, we're having Jagannātha parade, Prabhupāda is speaking...
Mr. Arnold: Yes, but in their own communities, we, I suggested a long time ago that in fact there should be an appeal, start off with an appeal in the local papers.
Prabhupāda: The priestly class, they will make propaganda against us: "Oh, they are mlecchas, they are Europeans, they are Americans. What they can do? It is not good." Because India, the caste system is very strong. So I am giving the Europeans and Americans the opportunities to become brāhmaṇa, they are not satisfied.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Because India, the caste system is very strong. So a brāhmaṇa will never accept a girl born into a śūdra family, although in śāstra it says that you can accept. (Sanskrit) means family member is respectful. Your family consideration is very... During marriage ceremony, the family consideration is very strong. Now that is dwindling. Formerly, family traditions, then horoscope. The so-called love was not given any importance, the so-called love. As in other countries the boys select wife or girls selects... No. There is no importance on this. The father, mother will see the horoscope, whether this boy and girl will agree according to the horoscope. Rāja-yoga(?) There are some calculations, astronomical calculations, from his birth, from her birth, and the expert astrologer will select, "Yes, this boy and this girl will be happy." Then they are married. If there is any discrepancy, they will deny, "No." These were the considerations. Then family tradition.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So it is said, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), according to quality and work. When one is educated in the quality of brāhmaṇa, Vaiṣṇava, and he works like a brāhmaṇa, he is no longer śūdra or caṇḍāla or yavana. He is brāhmaṇa or Vaiṣṇava.
Swiss Man (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: He says, in a sense we're something like the Buddhists because the Buddhists also don't take account of this, of the caste system.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Buddhist or anyone. Just like a person, when he is not educated in medical science he is not a medical man, but when he is properly educated in the medical science and he practices as a medical man, then he is a medical man. So you take it from Buddhism, or Hinduism; it doesn't matter. The thing is, consideration is, guṇa-karma. One must be qualified and he must work. Then he is elevated.
Prabhupāda: And that is already there. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The, the, in Vedic astrology, jāta-karma, they will say that "This child is a śūdra, this child is a brāhmaṇa, this child is a kṣatriya." By the birth, by the constellation of the stars, it will be done. It is already being done. And in the medical laboratory, the blood has been tested, brāhmaṇa, śūdra, vaiśya, there is different blood. Yes. The blood infusion. So if the, a different blood is infused, it does not act. So one doctor, in India, he was permanently keeping different bloods for different persons. So there is some meaning in the caste system. But that is not... In a brāhmaṇa family, a śūdra may also take birth. Śūdra blood. So to keep the blood brahminical, therefore the reformatory system is there, garbhādhāna-saṁskāra and all the saṁskāras. Before birth, they keep, to keep the blood brahminical, there is ceremony.
Reverend Powell: They're mostly young people, aren't they, or are they, you have all ages?
Prabhupāda: Yes, young, young people, they have got brain, (Reverend Powell laughs) receptive.
Reverend Powell: Yes, yes, rightly. And I might also inquire... I take it that you feel... Forgive me if I'm not using the right expression, but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead.
Prabhupāda: No, no. No, we have no caste system.
Reverend Powell: Well, I'm sorry. The brāhmaṇa, the śūdras and so on, per se.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to... Find out the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Now try this. This is the latest. (laughter) You are after latest. This is the latest.
Jayadharma: Sometimes people may say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that we're just trying to introduce the old caste system from India that never worked anyway.
Prabhupāda: That caste system is already there. We are also..., we have got poor class, rich class. The Communists, they have also worker class, manager class, although the Communists against class system. But I have seen, they have made this classification: worker class, manager class. Why do you make this? That is efficiency. Leader class, follower class. Otherwise there will be chaos. This is natural.
Prabhupāda: Even in your body there is class. The head class, the arm class, the belly class, the leg class. They are working differently for benefit of the whole body. That is natural. If you avoid and if you simply keep the leg, then it will be chaotic condition. Or even if you keep the head only, that will not stand. There must be four. That is natural. That is the Vedic mantra it is said—you are reading the other day—the brāhmaṇas, they came out of the mouth. The kṣatriyas, they came out of the arms. The vaiśyas, they came out of the belt. And the śūdras, they came out of the legs. This is mantra. How you can avoid it? Kṛṣṇa says, "It is My creation. How you can avoid it?" You cannot avoid anything which is created by Kṛṣṇa. Just like sunshine. It is created by Kṛṣṇa. You cannot say, "No, no. I don't want sunshine." That is foolishness. If you want to avoid, then you'll suffer. The sunshine is there, and if you go into the dark place, and cover yourself, then the sunshine is outside, that's all. The sun may not suffer—you'll suffer. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says that "This caste system is created by Me." If you don't accept it, then you'll suffer. Kṛṣṇa will not suffer. (leaves car) ...introducing the caste system, we are introducing a system which, you follow, you'll be happy. Not caste system. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (in room:)
Jayadharma: They say in India that the caste system apparently is not working.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Amogha: Shall I answer?
Prabhupāda: Mm.
Amogha: But at present the caste system in India isn't actually representative of the original varṇāśrama dharma system. The original system was a cooperation, organized cooperation between four kinds of men which are naturally there in society. Just like now we can see that some people are working as laborers, some people are working as merchants, and some people politicians and lawyers, some are teachers. Originally they were organized so that the priests, or priestly order, were benefiting everyone by their teaching.
Amogha: Vested interest. Yes. So then there was conflict between the lower and the higher and it broke down. So what we're teaching is not actually the caste system as it is now or it was recently, but...
Prabhupāda: You have also caste system in the Western countries. You are not without caste system. There is a priestly class. So there are politicians, there are industrialists, merchants, and ordinary laborer. Where is...? How you can say there is no caste system in your country?
Jayadharma: But there may be the clergymen and the mercantile class and the soldiers and the laborers, in this particular society, but this society is breaking away from that because they are not recognizing the clergy class of men because nobody is going to church, nor is anybody giving any money to the church these days. This is why many churches...
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think, that you say that your charge is "They are introducing caste system." But the Hindu caste system is already there. How do you say that I am introducing? That is my point.
Prabhupāda: (laughing lightly) You cannot say that I have introduced it. It is already there. As it is there in India, it is also everywhere. It may be under different names. The four classes are already there, everywhere. The... Even in Muslim, they have also got the (indistinct), what is called, mohallas, priestly class. They have got. We are introducing the systematic caste system, but caste system is already there, everywhere. Maybe under different names. And it is necessary. The caste system is there as a matter of necessity. You cannot abolish it. But it is now existing in a deformed manner. People should be systematic and organized. That we are trying to. Not that a new thing we are trying to introduce. It is already there. Our proposition is that "You priestly class, you must act exactly as a priest-ideal priest. You are a drunkard, you are woman-hunter, you are doing everything nonsense, and at the same time you are passing on as priest—this should be stopped." This should be stopped. The priestly class, or the brāhmaṇas, they should be trained up to become truthful, how to control mind, how to control senses, and tolerant, and very learned, knowing God also—these things are required. They should be the first-class, ideal men. Similarly, the kṣatriyas, they must be fearless; they must be very boldly, face fighting the enemies; they must have the capacity to govern nicely so that people will not have any complaint against the government.
Yogi Bhajan: No, no, the question is very simple, what the people will ask you. The caste system, what did to India...
Prabhupāda: This is not caste system.
Yogi Bhajan: It turned into.
Prabhupāda: This is classification of the human being. This is not caste system. Just like we are making this American boy a brāhmaṇa. So this is a brāhmaṇa caste?
Yogi Bhajan: No, but that is only...
Prabhupāda: We have been training them to, how to acquire the brāhmaṇa qualification. It doesn't matter whether he is coming from Christian family or Mohammedan family, this... No. Just like if you train one how to become engineer, it doesn't matter from which family he comes. It doesn't matter. Any family, he can come. He can be trained how to speak truthfulness. Satyam.
Sandy Nixon: Are you attempting to revive... I feel like asking this question two different ways. First I'll ask it one way which is, in a sense, incorrect. Maybe I'll just ask it this way and just get your answer. Are you attempting to revive in the West the awareness... Are you attempting to revive the ancient Indian caste system in the West?
Prabhupāda: Where do you find we are reviving caste system? Where do you find? First of all let me know. Why you are asking this question? If you have seen that we are trying to introduce the Indian caste system, then you say. But if there is no such attempt, why you are asking this question?
Sandy Nixon: Well, because a lot of people are interested, and...
Prabhupāda: No, no, lot of people, you are also one of them. So where do you find that we are trying to introduce caste system? First of all find out where is the attempt. Then you ask question. Otherwise it is irrelevant question.
Sandy Nixon: The Gītā mentions the caste system.
Prabhupāda: Gītā, what mentions, do you know?
Sandy Nixon: The four castes and an untouchable caste.
Prabhupāda: What is that? On the basis of what?
Sandy Nixon: I can't locate it directly. But the Brahma...
Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda. Who has said that this is caste system? This is not caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and according to work, there are four divisions of men. Just like you can understand there are engineers and there are medical practitioners. So do you take them as caste? "Oh, he is engineer caste. He is medical caste." Do you say like that?
Sandy Nixon: I don't want to say what I feel because I'm recording you. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: I'm asking you, I'm asking you...
Devotee: We're teaching in Kṛṣṇa consciousness how everything can become solved by developing love and devotion for God, Kṛṣṇa. So I... Prabhupāda: That is the ultimate goal. If you can learn how to love God, then you become perfect, and all other things automatically come.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Without varṇāśrama-dharma there is no civilization. Yes. They are trying to abolish this under the name of "caste system." It is not caste system. Caste system, or whatever you call, there must be these four division. Not four, eight. This is general, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Then, according to the brahminical culture, the spiritual, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. And after sannyāsa, then spiritual life, complete, śuddha-sattva. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you have to establish varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāra. Ācāra. Ācāra. Varṇāśrama ācāra. Yes. Because the aim is... Again we come to the... Just like state affairs going on, but ultimate aim is to keep the government satisfied. Then you'll get everything nicely. Similarly, the supreme government or supreme governor is God. That is your duty, to keep Him satisfied. Then you get all direction, all facilities and life. That is the aim.
Prabhupāda: So May, June, July, August, at least four months. Four months. (long pause)
Jayādvaita: At the college programs, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and I have been giving a lot of classes on varṇāśrama-dharma. Because they always want to hear something about the Hindu caste system, so they'll take us on that basis. And then we speak about varṇāśrama-dharma. And they don't have any idea to defeat it. They always, some little weak argument, but they don't have any better system.
Prabhupāda: What is their argument?
Jayādvaita: Hardly.... Well, they have some idea, they argue that there's no social mobility, because they all have some bodily idea that caste by birth.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact.
Prabhupāda: Who is he?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know. He's late though.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He has died, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's dead. He was enlightened. "...equated Hindu ethos with castism." He equated that Hindu culture, or Hindu ethos, and castism is one and the same. "Will the fundamental values of Hinduism be in any way affected by the eradication of castism, towards which a concerted effort is now being made at all levels?"
Prabhupāda: But it cannot be done. This is another foolishness. Because Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). But the difficulty is the caste system is coming on account of false notion that a brāhmaṇa is the son of a brāhmaṇa. That is caste system. But Kṛṣṇa does not say. He says, "By quality and work." He never says, "By birth." So this so-called castism in India that is a false notion of cātur-varṇyaṁ. Real cātur-varṇyaṁ means guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. One must be qualified. And how one is qualified? That is also described. Satya śamo damo titikṣva ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. So there must be education. It is not that to abolish the caste system which is contaminated by false conception, or birth right conception. This wrong caste system should be abolished and training centers should be opened how to train a person to become brāhmaṇa or to become kṣatriya. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. So you cannot avoid it, but because you have misconceived the caste system, that should be abolished, and the system recommended by Kṛṣṇa, that should be taken. Otherwise you cannot avoid it. Caste system will remain. Just like truthfulness. So all over the world you'll find somebody who is truthful. Why do you take it: "His father was truthful, therefore he is truthful."? This is nonsense. This is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa never said that. The father may be Hiranyakasipu, but his son is Prahlāda. Or a son... Not that the, one has to become exactly like the father. It may be. There is every possibility, but it is not a fact that the son becomes like the father. It is not fact. So similarly, the first class man is truthful. Now, wherever you find a truthful man, you classify him as brāhmaṇa. That is wanted.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You're saying, rather, it's a classification according to the quality of a man's... Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. That must be there.
Interviewer: Would that mean that you support the ancient caste system? Prabhupāda: Huh? It is not caste system. It is division of labor. It is not caste system. A class of men must be intelligent, a class of men must be strong to give protection. And a class of men must be to produce food, and a class of men, general worker. It is not caste system. Bhagavad-gītā never says caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and work. You have made it caste system. You have no qualification of a brāhmaṇa, you are calling, "I am brāhmaṇa." That is caste system. But if you have got the quality of a brāhmaṇa and you work as a brāhmaṇa, that is necessary. That is necessary. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ.
Bhagatji: In Bengal kāyasthas is the...
Prabhupāda: No, no, Bengal. Mean in U.P.
Bhagatji: In U.P. kāyasthas are śūdras.
Prabhupāda: And originally they are śūdras. The history of Bengali kāyasthas... They went with the brāhmaṇas as servant. That is the history. And in Bengal the system is... (Bengali saying and Hindi explanation) Actually it is... If some low class man, he becomes rich, then he's taken into the kāyastha community. Anyone who cannot stick to the principle of caste system, he becomes a kāyastha.
Bhagatji: Varṇa-saṅkara.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) Some of them are kṣatriyas and some of them... Like that. But that is not essential. That is all gone. Now, if one cannot take education, he can be used in farm work, a little hard work.
Prabhupāda: Solution. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām... And that we are preaching, that "You become God conscious. Everything will be solved." And who is caring for us? Rather, they are giving opposition, that "These rascals are kidnapping our sons, brainwashing, controlling the mind," creating courts case. Just see. This is going on.
Dr. Kneupper: Do you see as a... When you're describing that if the world were going to be God conscious, it would...
Prabhupāda: Everything will be solved.
Dr. Kneupper: But you were describing the caste system or the...
Prabhupāda: This is not caste system. It is natural. There is always an intelligent class of men in the society. So they should be, what is called, listed. They should be trained up properly.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So who forbids? Is there any restriction that... (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "Here are some measures to be implemented. The caste system should be abolished." They are always trying to abolish the caste system.
Prabhupāda: The caste system... Where is the hindrance in the caste system? If you want to become a brāhmaṇa, you can become a brāhmaṇa. Why it should be abolished?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Incorrect understanding of it should be abolished.
Prabhupāda: "This is the definition of becoming a brāhmaṇa." Give this.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śamaḥ damaḥ kṣamā śaucam.
Prabhupāda: So you have to learn it. How you can become a brāhmaṇa?
Prabhupāda: These are the symptoms of becoming a brāhmaṇa. You develop these symptoms. Who checks you? Practically we are doing all over the world. There is no such thing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All the measures...
Prabhupāda: Caste system should not be abolished, but it must be properly established. That is wanted. If you have got any defect in the eye, not that the eye should be plucked out. But it should be treated and brought into the normal condition. That is wanted. That we admit. You want to become brāhmaṇa without brahminical qualification. Not only you, everyone wants.
Bhakti-caru: You told Professor Kotovsky that this caste system is existing everywhere, in every society in the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. In the body there is caste system. The head is the brāhmaṇa, the hand is the kṣatriya, the belly is the vaiśya and the leg is the śūdra. Everything head, that will not help. There must be leg also. But it must be conducted under the guidance of the head. Then it is all right. If the head is not there and leg is utilized for jumping, that is monkey's business. The leg must work according to the dictation of the head. The hand must work according to the dictation of the head. "The caste system should be abolished." What is the caste system? There is no caste system. Everyone is śūdra. Who is a brāhmaṇa now, qualified, except one or two in our camp?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The article ends by saying, "Let harijanas be their own pathfinders and let them lead themselves from darkness to light, from pain to pleasure."
Prabhupāda: That you do not know. Otherwise you would have done it.
Prabhupāda: In India the caste system was very good. From the very beginning the children would learn the technology of their paternal. Just like potter. You'll see the children of the potter, they are also making a small bird, a small fruit, and they would be sold. A small playing utensils-small glass, small plate—they're also sold. Other children would purchase. The whole family used to earn something. Nowadays they're sent to school, wasting time, and then unemployment and idle brain. What is the use of sending a potter's son to school?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, everything he needs to know, he can learn at home.
Prabhupāda: That's what I... Similarly, weaver, that cloth weaving, "kat, kat." The wife is spinning, her husband is weaving, the children is weaving, and combinedly at the end of the day there is a cloth. And people were satisfied with simple necessities. They would not charge very much for the labor. And one nice cloth requires half a pound cotton. Half a pound cotton means maybe one rupee. Another one rupee for the labor. So now they are paying twenty to thirty rupees.
| Page Title: | Caste system (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Serene |
| Created: | 15 of Oct, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=28, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 28 |