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Caste (Conversations)

Conversations and Morning Walks

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: So everyone is working. Never mind in whatever occupation one is engaged. That doesn't matter. But one has to test whether he is becoming successful. Because everyone wants success. We are not animals that without any success we shall work hard labor. That is animals' business. Just like several times I have given the example, dophara gadha, the ass of the washerman. That kind of business and work is no use. Dophara gadha, ass of the washerman. Here, of course, you have no experience. In India there is a class who are called washermen. In India there are different castes. Washerman, a class; barber, a class. I mean to say... So many departmental. So each and every one, there is a class who take up that work. Sweeper, a class. All the necessities. The clerk, even clerk, there is a class; priest, there is a class; the fighter, there is a class. That is nice arrangement. In India... And florists, there is a class, florist. Their business is simply to supply flower. Fisherman there is a class; butcher, there is a class. Just like we have got a temple, now we require potter. Potter, there is a class.

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:
Prabhupāda: So they have got respectable terms. Just like a brāhmaṇa is addressed as paṇḍita mahārāja. A kṣatriya is addressed ṭhākura saheb, ṭhākur. And a merchant is addressed: sethji. And the laborer class addressed as choudhari, means leader. In this way everyone has got respectable position. Why? Because the test of their success was one, Viṣṇu. Success... Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ labhate param. Whatever your occupation may be, that doesn't matter. But if you worship the Supreme Lord by your occupation, then you are successful. The florist supplies flower to the temple. The potter supplies pots to the temple. The priest chants mantra in the temple. The kṣatriyas, they protect the temple. He supplies the expenditure of the temple. Because the land belongs to the kṣatriya. They are royal class. Because they occupy land, so they have got the obligation to give protection to the country, fight. They shall fight. And here, at the present moment, the arrangement is that you have no land, you are landless, but you are called to fight. Why? This system is condemned system. The kṣatriyas, they are royal class, they possessed land, so they had obligation to protect the country. Therefore they were fighting. How nice arrangement. Those who are occupying administration of the country, they should fight. But they are sitting very nicely in their armchair and calling somebody, "Go and fight and be killed." This system is not scientific system. Therefore the caste system is very nice. They have now been condemned... Not condemned, but they want to revise it. But this is a very scientific system. Why? It is created by Kṛṣṇa.
Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:
Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). "I have created the four divisions of caste." It is not exactly caste; section, varṇa. So how you can stop? It is natural. So Bhāgavata recommends, Suta Gosvāmī is addressing, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. This system of sectional division, this is... "He is brāhmaṇa, he is kṣatriya, he is vaiśya, he is śūdra, he is brahmacārī, he is householder, he is vānaprastha, he is sannyāsī." Or sub-section. "He is potter, he is washerman, he is this and that." You may divide it or not, this section will be there in every society. So Bhāgavata says that "You may be situated in any section. It doesn't matter." Either you be a kṣatriya or a brāhmaṇa or a potter or a washerman or whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. Everyone should be satisfied by his occupation. But how one gets successful by his occupation? He hasn't got to change the occupation. In the material world one has to change his occupation for certain kind of success. Suppose if you are a potter. Now, if you want to become engineer, so you have to change your occupation as potter. But in the spiritual world you haven't got to change your position, and still, you get success, spiritual life. That is the beauty. You haven't got to change. If somebody says that "Sir, I am potter. How can I be Kṛṣṇa conscious? It requires that one should be a brāhmaṇa, one should be very learned man, Vedānta philosophy, and one must have the sacred thread, and this and that.

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 12, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Allen Ginsberg: Well, then even sexuality is spiritual?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is said in the Bhagavad-gītā: if you use sexuality for giving birth to nice child, not cats and dogs, that is spiritual. But people are using sexuality for other purposes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, śāstra-viruddho(?), according to religious ritualistic way, if one, when one uses sex life that is (indistinct). That is, therefore in the, according to Vedic system, therefore, having sex life with wife, there is a great ceremony which is called garbhādhāna ceremony, and all the higher caste, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, śūdra, er vaiśyas especially, they are to observe ten kinds of reformative process. The first process is while giving birth to a child there is a great ceremony, garbhādhāna. So it is not a secret. To beget nice child, then there will be nice population, then there will be peace and prosperity. If you beget cats and dogs, how can you expect peace and prosperity? Living in the same dog society, cat society then there will be peace? No.

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- November 4, 1970, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: One of our relatives, long, long ago, he happened to be, as my grandmother..., my cousin's, oh, grandfather. He went to England in those old days and he became a parsiyas(?) doctor, very... When he came home the brāhmaṇas prescribed that "You went to England, so you have to make this prāyaścitta and this and so many prescriptions, and unless you follow the prāyaścitta you cannot live at home. Then your family will be extricated." So when these things were presented to him he said, "Then I am going out of home." His mother and father, everyone requested that... (Hindi) (break)

Haṁsadūta: "Patel Pola(?) of Chicago had observed that he was a construction worker doing a śūdra's work. It would not become necessary to allot the three lower castes to the foreign converts according to their professions. This will not be an easy task. Talking of profession reminds me of a still graver problem—that of the occupation or profession of the white sādhus. If I am not mistaken, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would turn out legions of new white sādhus in the West whose only aim in life would be to propitiate their Lord Kṛṣṇa. They would be steeped in the bhakti-rasa and would not soil their hands with doing any work for such a mundane thing as earning a living."

Prabhupāda: They are not doing anything. Actually they are not doing anything. They are preaching only.

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: Śāstra-vākya-pramāṇa. And it should be known through the spiritual master. Just like nowadays Bhagavad-gītā is being interpreted in so many foolish ways because they do not accept explanation from the authority. They become themselves authorities. Therefore misused. That is not explanation. Somebody is explaining that Kurukṣetra means this body, pañca-pāṇḍava means the senses. These are all nonsense. You have to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. When you cannot understand, you should get it explained by your spiritual master. Therefore one has to accept a spiritual master to understand. Tad-vijnanārtham. In order to understand that transcendental science one must approach a bona fide spiritual master. That is injunction. So here it is said that kānyakubje dvijaḥ. Dvijaḥ means he was offered the sacred thread. That means he was born in a brāhmaṇa family. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ. Everyone is born a śūdra, a foolish. Sudra means a foolish man who simply laments. That is the real meaning of śūdra. Anyone who has no intelligence, he is śūdra. We also generally say, gadāh, less intelligent. So brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they are called higher caste. According to their... Brāhmaṇa, first-class because his intelligence is first-class. Kṣatriya, his intelligence is second-class. Vaiśya, his intelligence is third-class. And śūdra means fourth-class. And less than śūdra, they are called pañcama, caṇḍāla. They are accepted as animals, those who are less than śūdras. This is the Vedic system. Now, here it is said that this Ajamila, dvija... Dvija means he was properly initiated, second birth. First birth by father, mother, is śūdra. Anyone, even if he is born in a brāhmaṇa family, the natural birth is considered as śūdra. But if there is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, then he's accepted as born brāhmaṇa, born brāhmaṇa. Still, one is born brāhmaṇa, he has to undergo the saṁskāras.

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Guest (6): Let me get degree.

Prabhupāda: You get your degree. That's all right. Finish your education. If I'll be able to open a center, nice center, I shall call so many people, "Come and live with me and be trained up." I am just writing one advertisement. We shall have to publish it. Just read it.

Haṁsadūta: "Wanted: qualified brāhmaṇas for preaching Bhagavad-gītā all over the world. (laughter) Candidates accepted without any discrimination of caste and creed. Apply ISKCON."

Yamunā: Oh, ho, ho, Prabhupāda!

Haṁsadūta: "Life member can send any member of his family for being trained up as a qualified brāhmaṇa who can preach Bhagavad-gītā as it is all over the world." You're going to put this in the newspaper?

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes.

Haṁsadūta: Oh, that will be nice. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yamunā: Oh, that's a wonderful notice, Prabhupāda. It's so wonderful.

Prabhupāda: We have to preach all over the world. We require so many men, so many boys, girls, men we want.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: Modern process of Westernization is going on in the world. But Prof. Srinivas...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Kotovsky: ...with the very grace (indistinct) of some anthropologists at Delhi University...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Kotovsky: I agree with him that a very interesting... Two processes. The process of Westernization among brāhmaṇa mainly and upper castes and so-called Sanskritization he calls the process of adopting some brāhmaṇa rituals, etc., by so-called low castes, even untouchables. Very interesting processes in India just now.

Prabhupāda: Now one thing... The other day I was speaking to some... Where I was? In Bombay, I think, I was speaking some respectable gentlemen that "Kṛṣṇa says:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
(BG 9.32)

Kṛṣṇa says, 'Even those who are low-born, pāpa-yoni—the striya, vaiśya and śūdra, they are also included—but by accepting Me, accepting my shelter, they are also elevated to the transcendental position.' Now, why the higher class of Hindu society, they neglected this injunction of Bhagavad-gītā? Suppose one is pāpa-yoni. Kṛṣṇa says that 'They can be elevated to the transcendental position if they accept Me.' Why this propaganda was not done by the higher class people so that the so-called pāpa-yoni could be elevated? Why you rejected them? The result was that the Mohammedans... Instead of accepting them, you rejected them, and they have partitioned, and they have gone away, and they have become eternal enemy of India." You see? So this is the first time that we are trying to elevate to the highest position of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even one is in the pāpa-yoni. It doesn't matter because soul is pure. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. The Vedas says, "The soul is untouched by any material contamination." Simply, temporarily, he is covered. This covering should be opened. Then he becomes pure. That is the mission of human life, to uncover ourselves from this material envelopment and come to the spiritual understanding, surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Life is perfect.

Darsana -- June 28, 1971, San Francisco:
Prabhupāda: Although the foodstuff is here, automatically this is served, this is served, this is served, this is... Everybody is served. This is practical. If you serve Kṛṣṇa, then all service will be included. They are serving humanitarian and so on. Suppose I, I am Indian, I came to your country. Why I came to your country in this old age? That is service. To be Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's the best service. Without any distinction of caste, creed, country, color. No. Everyone should have Kṛṣṇa. This is the best service. Go everywhere, every part of the world, and give Kṛṣṇa. That is the best service you can do. And actually, they are now feeling, because they are Indians. Even in India, where there are so many devotees of Kṛṣṇa, but when they saw "These American devotees are so nice," thirty thousand people were coming daily. And what was our magic? This man was asking me, "Swamiji, what magic you have got?" I said, "I have got this magic that I don't tell lie. I don't make 'This rascal is God.' God is Kṛṣṇa. That is my magic. I don't bluff people. Here is God. See God, be with God, serve God. That's my business." Why God should be unseen? You see Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa says that "I am taste of the water," while you are drinking water, tasting, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." As soon as you see sunshine, moonshine, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." As soon as there is a nice flavor, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." Puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca tejaś cāsmi vibhāvasau. These are all described in the Bhagavad-gītā, Seventh Chapter. Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Just turn to Seventh Chapter. Somebody come up to this. So it is very important movement. You take it very seriously and spread it. Seventh Chapter.
Room Conversation -- London, August 10, 1971:

Mr. Arnold: Yes, but in their own communities, we, I suggested a long time ago that in fact there should be an appeal, start off with an appeal in the local papers.

Prabhupāda: The priestly class, they will make propaganda against us: "Oh, they are mlecchas, they are Europeans, they are Americans. What they can do? It is not good." Because India, the caste system is very strong. So I am giving the Europeans and Americans the opportunities to become brāhmaṇa, they are not satisfied.

Dhanañjaya: Also they say that here in our temple they don't let anyone else speak, so why should we..., they, why should we let them speak? This is what they say. Because we don't allow them to come, you know, and talk on Hinduism, so they say, "Why should we ask, let them do it here, in our community?"

Śyāmasundara: Still, they're asking us to supply them pūjārīs.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: They're asking us to supply them pūjārīs. Out of all their community, not one man will volunteer to be the pūjārī.

Prabhupāda: They're asking us for pūjārī?

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Huh? There is no question of preference. Kṛṣṇa's creation, it is there. You are creating (indistinct) caste, jana-saṅgaś caste. Caste is already given, in a different name. How you can make casteless? That is not possible. The whole world—"I am American," "I am Indian"—this is caste, bigger caste. Yasyātma-buddhi-kuṇa. So long you will be under the concept of this body, there must be caste division. So we have to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there will be no caste. Just like these boys, Americans, Europeans, Africans, Canadians, they have no caste, they have no nationality. They are simply for Kṛṣṇa. That is casteless.

Reporter: So are they brāhmaṇas?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa conscious means brāhmaṇa. Brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ.

Reporter: Not by birth?

Prabhupāda: Not by birth. They are brāhmaṇas by quality. They have got sacred thread. That is also there in the śāstra. Yasya hi yad lakṣaṇaṁ syat. Varṇa has been given. Varṇa. Varṇa, we want to compare symptoms. The brāhmaṇas are this: satya, samaḥ, damaḥ, titikṣa, ārjavam, jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). This is the symptom of brāhmaṇa. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you find these symptoms anywhere, he is a brāhmaṇa.

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Reporter: Not by birth?

Prabhupāda: Not by birth. They are brāhmaṇas by quality. They have got sacred thread. That is also there in the śāstra. Yasya hi yad lakṣaṇaṁ syat. Varṇa has been given. Varṇa. Varṇa, we want to compare symptoms. The brāhmaṇas are this: satya, samaḥ, damaḥ, titikṣa, ārjavam, jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). This is the symptom of brāhmaṇa. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you find these symptoms anywhere, he is a brāhmaṇa.

Reporter: Except those who believe in Bhagavad-gītā, not (indistinct), sir. They don't believe in that. They believe caste by birth.

Prabhupāda: He does not know what is Bhagavad-gītā.

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: I say he does not know what is Bhagavad-gītā. If he believes in that way, that he does not know about Gītā.

Reporter: He says he's Hindu.

Prabhupāda: Maybe your Hinduism. You lick up your Hinduism. But we are creating real brāhmaṇa all over the world.

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Reporter: I can see. What Lord Kṛṣṇa has stated, sir, that "I have created these four castes of āśrama..."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: And I as myself, just, as not somebody told me, just my...

Prabhupāda: Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. Kṛṣṇa never says...

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, no. These four castes... Not caste. We say caste, but varṇāśrama varṇa. Varṇa. Anyway, it is division. That division, vibhāga, the exact word is "division," not "caste." How you can say caste, it is not there, difference? Division, these four divisions are there. So these divisions are not made by birth. Just like if you are a lawyer. So in the society there are lawyers, engineers, medical men, they are divisions. But these lawyers, medical men or engineers, they are not born as engineer or as lawyer. That is mistake. Anyone who is qualified by the real knowledge, he is a lawyer. Not by birth. Suppose a lawyer's son, a big, big lawyer's son, does it mean that he's lawyer?

Reporter: No. But this is what we have been (indistinct).

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1972, Madras:

Devotee: Could be Puri Maharaja.

Prabhupāda: Go, go, go. So that is our point. Bali Maharaja, he saw that his so-called Śukrācārya, caste Goswāmī, is checking him to offer anything to Vāmanadeva. "Oh, I don't like you. I reject you. I don't want a spiritual master like you, who is checking me for offering to Kṛṣṇa." This is a mahājana. Prahlāda Maharaja became mahājana. Gopīs became the topmost devotee. Why? For Kṛṣṇa. They neglected any social convention, this, that. "No. Kṛṣṇa must be satisfied." That is the most... That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. (break) (telephone conversation in Hindi with Puri Maharaja) (break)

Śyāmasundara: So we, we should get tickets today...

Prabhupāda: Yes, we will get tickets.

Śyāmasundara: ...for leaving on...

Prabhupāda: On seventeenth.

Śyāmasundara: ...seventeenth?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. We shall pay for his expenditure.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with John Griesser (later initiated as Yadubara Dasa) -- March 10, 1972, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Because India, the caste system is very strong. So a brāhmaṇa will never accept a girl born into a śūdra family, although in śāstra it says that you can accept. (Sanskrit) means family member is respectful. Your family consideration is very... During marriage ceremony, the family consideration is very strong. Now that is dwindling. Formerly, family traditions, then horoscope. The so-called love was not given any importance, the so-called love. As in other countries the boys select wife or girls selects... No. There is no importance on this. The father, mother will see the horoscope, whether this boy and girl will agree according to the horoscope. Rāja-yoga(?) There are some calculations, astronomical calculations, from his birth, from her birth, and the expert astrologer will select, "Yes, this boy and this girl will be happy." Then they are married. If there is any discrepancy, they will deny, "No." These were the considerations. Then family tradition. What is the tradition of the boy's father's family, mother's family, so many things they calculate, then the marriage settlement, "Yes." And the boy might not have seen the girl. There is no necessity of the boy seeing the girl or the girl seeing the boy. There is no necessity. After marriage, when the marriage ceremony is performed, then the boy and girl can see one another: "Oh, she is my wife." (laughter) "He is my husband." That. (aside) So. You can begin. Oh, this is another magazine, Earth.

Room Conversation -- April 1, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: Change, I say. How the changes take place? You are changing. You are changing from your childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So there is a plan. Unless there is plan, why one child is not, by chance, becomes immediately old. What the nonsense will reply? Let the rascal reply this, that here is a chance, that one child immediately becomes old man, by chance. Why there is process? This is plan. So you should have depth of knowledge, otherwise you will be carried away by these rascals. We cannot be carried away by these rascals. We never so easily believed that they are going to the moon planet. You see? We have to scrutinize everything. Yes. That is brahminical qualification. A brāhmaṇa will not accept anything simply because it is said by some rascal. A śūdra will accept because he has no intelligence. That is the difference between brāhmaṇa and śūdra. It is not a caste system. It is classi..., guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), division of high qualities and actual activities according to that quality. They misinterpreted. Because by the influence of Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra, so he does not know what is the actually brahminical qualification. Therefore there is, I mean to say, competition: "Why this man should be done?(known?) I am as good as he is, and why he should be called brāhmaṇa? He should be given greater facility?" So actually it has happened so. A so-called brāhmaṇa, caste brāhmaṇa, he is working his intelligence like śūdra, and he is claiming, by birthright, brāhmaṇa. There must be protest. This has happened. Otherwise, that division is perfect, guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ. Anyone who comes to that quality, he becomes brāhmaṇa. That is the injunction of the śāstra. Kṛṣṇa says guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ. You have no qualification, you do not work according to your quality, and why you are claiming a brāhmaṇa? That is self-evident. Guṇa karma vibhāga. He never said by birth, never said. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. "In this age, Kali-yuga, all śūdras." Therefore they accept everything cheaply and at once, the śūdras.

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney:
Prabhupāda: "This regulative principle is applicable to all varṇas and āśramas, the castes and occupations of life. There are four varṇas, namely the brāhmaṇas (priests and intellectuals), the kṣatriyas (warriors and statesmen), the vaiśyas (businessmen and farmers) and the śūdras (laborers and servants). There are also four standard āśramas, namely brahmacarya (student life), gṛhastha (householder), vānaprastha (retired) and sannyāsa (renounced). The regulative principles are not only for the brahmacārīs (the celibate students) to follow, but are applicable for all. It doesn't matter whether one is a beginner—a brahmacārī—or if one is very advanced—a sannyāsī. The principle of remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly and not forgetting Him at any moment is meant to be followed by everyone, without fail.
Morning Walk -- June 14, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That's all. They don't want to see people very enlightened. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." But at least how to become wise, that injunction has been given to you. Now you try to save the country, how to do it. These people will not be. You'll have to educate the people, and they'll vote you to the senators, president, and then your country will be nice. Just like by Kurukṣetra, Kṛṣṇa smashed all Duryodhana and company, and He posted Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. That is the Kṛṣṇa's politics. He wanted to smash all these demons and have His own men posted on the royal throne. When Kali could not penetrate into the daily behavior of the people, he planned killing of Parīkṣit Maharaja. So, one Kali brāhmaṇa cursed him to death, for no fault practically. Therefore the brāhmaṇas of this age, they are condemned. The so-called caste brāhmaṇas, they're condemned. That is lamented by the father of the boy who cursed Parīkṣit Maharaja. (japa) (end)

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Guest (2): So whoever cannot stand on his own legs as an independent businessman or landlord or whatever it be, he's a śūdra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. I have not manufactured these things. These are śāstra, that "He's brāhmaṇa,"—the qualification. "He's kṣatriya,"—qualification. "He's vaiśya,"—qualification. "He's śūdra—by qualification." And Nārada Muni says, but we have to judge by the qualification. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam, yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet: (SB 7.11.35) "These are the qualities of different caste. If it is found in other place, you should designate him according to the quality." Just like a man born of a brāhmaṇa family, but if he has got the śūdra qualities, then he should be śūdra. And a man born of a śūdra family, if he has got the qualities of brāhmaṇa, then he must be designated as brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Guest (2): What about intermarriage between all the castes?

Prabhupāda: Well, intermarriage, that has introduced according to the social system. But so far we are concerned, we are allowing intermarriage from any country, any... If he's Kṛṣṇa conscious, we help him marry. There are so many intermarriages in our society. So try to understand this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and spread it so that there will be oneness—one God, one scripture, one nation, one religion—according to Vedic injunction. Not that we are manufacturing something. That is the Vedic injunction.

Guest (2): What is the speciality of Vedic injunction compared to Hebrew scriptures?

Prabhupāda: Vedic injunction is, the ultimate goal of human life, to go back to home, back to Godhead. That's all. This is not... As... I have already explained that this is not our home, material world. We are spirit soul. Our real home is spiritual world. So in the lives, different species of life, 8,400,000's of species of life, they cannot understand it, that we are spirit soul, our home is in the spiritual world. They cannot understand it. That opportunity is available in this human form of life. Therefore if we don't take advantage of this information and prepare ourself accordingly, then we are losing the opportunity. Tad api aphala-janma. Anāśrita govinda-caraṇa-dvayam.(?)

Room Conversation -- October 27, 1972, Vrndavana:

Gurudāsa: Acyutānanda Mahārāja said that he has heard that Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī has said that these turtles in Vṛndāvana were previously caste gosvāmīs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So...

Gurudāsa: It's a result of trying to cheat māyā then?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Gurudāsa: It's a result of trying to...

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... They are showing that "We are gosvāmī," but doing all nonsense. This is cheating. Like this man, he is thinking that "Somehow or other I will get his money through Dāmodara, and I shall drink and everything (indistinct)." It is not cheating? Gosvāmī means one who has full control over the senses. That is gosvāmī. But he is taking the title of gosvāmī but he has no control over his senses. That is cheating. So you cannot cheat that way, Kṛṣṇa or māyā. Whatever little success I have got, I have tried always not to cheat Kṛṣṇa or māyā. That's all.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: ...otherwise, in his preaching, he never stressed. He said,

kibā vipra kibā nyāsī śūdra kene naya
yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya
(CC Madhya 8.128)

"It doesn't matter whether he's a sannyāsī or gṛhastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra; it doesn't matter. If he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he's all right." So this is very reasonable. One requires to know the science. (Hindi) People are interested in whether he knows medical science. That's all. He may be a brāhmaṇa, a śūdra. It doesn't matter. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means one should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. He should know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he's all right. It doesn't matter what he is. Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Just like Śaṅkarācārya, (Hindi) First of all, you become sannyāsa. Then you talk of spiritual thing. That was his condition. And he would simply offer sannyāsa to the caste brāhmaṇa. Nobody else. Stricture. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu is very liberal, that "Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha, it does not matter. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can act as spiritual master. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa." So he's Dhruvānanda?

Guest (1): Dhruvānanda.

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Professor: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: So Indian caste brāhmaṇas, they are against me, against me. They come to fight with me that I am spoiling Hindu religion.

Professor: (laughs) Well, you are a brāhmaṇa yourself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I am now sannyāsī.

Haṁsadūta: This is a statement of account from the Central Bank of India. It just arrived from London.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause, opens letter) Any other letter? No.

Haṁsadūta: That's all. No.

Prabhupāda: So just see how we have translated. You are Sanskrit scholar.

Professor: You know the Kali-santaraṇa Upaniṣad?

Prabhupāda: Kali-santaraṇa Upaniṣad. Yes.

Professor: Yes, I have made a translation of it into French. It's under print now at the present.

Prabhupāda: Kali-santaraṇa Upaniṣad? That is Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: The meditation you can do, just like we are also doing meditation, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. But meditation as it is, to absorb the mind fully in God's vision, that is very difficult nowadays, at the present moment. People's mind is very disturbed. They cannot actually meditate. Therefore in this age, meditation, chanting the holy name of the Lord, that is recommended, congregationally. Just like we do, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma... So there is no need of dark room. Just like this boy. He is also a responsible officer in New York. He is also chanting. All these sannyāsīs. And we have got all these beads. So there is no need of meditating in darkness. We are going on the open street. We are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma... There is no difficulty. Neither we have to select a dark place. Anywhere. Just like I am talking with you, they are chanting. Their chanting is not stopped. So why should you go to a dark room? It is open thing. And it is open for everyone, in any moment. There is no hard and fast rule, that "You have to do like that, do like that." Simply you have to chant, anywhere possible. Suppose if you leave this room, you go on the street, you can chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare... Nobody... There is no taxation. There is no loss. But the gain is very great by chanting. And this is recommended in this age, not sophistically to find out a dark room. No. It may be suitable for a particular person. But for mass of people, where is the facility of getting a dark room while going on the street? Suppose you are going on the street or in a car to your office, can you arrange for the dark room? But you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa without any dark room. So which is better? For concentrating your mind, for meditating, if you have to make so many facilities arrangement, and without any arrangement, if you can do, which one is better? Without any arrangement. That is Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Without any arrangement, immediately you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Without any consideration of your age, of your religion, of your country, of your nationality, of your color, caste, anything. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And that is being done, and the whole world is accepting. We are not recommending that "Go to a dark room." Neither it is required. Everything must be for mass benefit. That is only this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. What do you think?

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Lady: But originally it wasn't like that. Suppose if you are born into brāhmaṇa, fortunately, then you become brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not. No, no, no. No, that is not śāstra. That is a... Lately, this brahminical class, they made it. Just like he is a manager in the bank. His son does not mean that he is also manager. He must be qualified to become a manager. He has got the facility. Because he is son of a bank manager, so he can get some facilities, father's training. He can quickly become a manager. Others may take time. Similarly, a person born in brāhmaṇa family, if his father is actually brāhmaṇa, then automatically he is getting the brahminical training at home. This satya, śama, dama, titikṣā, ārjavam (BG 18.42), this qualification. Because naturally the children follow the father. So if the father is a real brāhmaṇa, then he naturally becomes. But if by chance he develops the śūdra quality, then he must be accepted as śūdra, not as a brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). If the qualities, brahminical qualities are found somewhere else in śūdra or a vaiśya, then he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly if śūdra qualities are found in the son of a brāhmaṇa, he should be accepted as śūdra. It is the quality, not the birth. That is not a fact. They have made it now like that. Because without any qualification, if he can become a brāhmaṇa, why he should not take the advantage? That has fallen down the Vedic culture in India, when it came to the caste system. It is not the caste system by birth. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "By quality..." guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Read that, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Room Conversation -- November 4, 1973, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: There are many instances but this is the injunction of the śāstra. And practically also. Suppose a man is a medical practitioner. He may be born in a brāhmaṇa family or śūdra family. Nobody wants to know to which family he belongs to. If he sees that he is a medical practitioner, he has passed the MD examination and that he is practicing then people accept him as doctor, medical man. Nobody asks him, "Are you a brāhmaṇa, then I make my treatment with you?" Nobody asks that. So, this is śāstric injunction. Then later on this caste brāhmaṇism, śūdraism made the whole thing, whole Hindu culture, Vedic culture spoiled.

Guest: Quite right.

Prabhupāda: That is the.... Now it is the duty of the secular government.... Now if somebody is claiming that, "I am brāhmaṇa", then government should force him to become actually a brāhmaṇa. That is government's duty, that is secular state. Not that let people go to hell, we don't care for them, that is not required.

Guest: Yes, but if a brāhmaṇa is not behaving...

Prabhupāda: If you are claiming to become a brāhmaṇa, you must act as a brāhmaṇa.

Lady Guest: (indistinct) of a brāhmaṇas.

Guest: And actions and duty....

Prabhupāda: That should be the platform.

Morning Walk -- December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Associates...

Yaśomatīnandana: Lord Kṛṣṇa's...

Prabhupāda: Some of them gopīs, some of them cowherd boys, some of them father, mother, like that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Bengal, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the brāhmaṇa caste family like Mukherjees, then Bannerjees, then,... I had a roommate when I was in Calcutta, his was Mukherjee. So he was telling me one day that we are much more superior brāhmaṇas than other like Chaudhuris and Sanyals.

Prabhupāda: But where is your superiority?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was explaining like that.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But what is your superiority. You're a servant now. You're śūdra. You're not even a brāhmaṇa. Superiority by simply explanation will not do. You must be (indistinct). Guṇa, karma, superiority means guṇa, karma. You must have the quality and you must work in that quality. You're a scientist, but after a few generation, a foolish boy in your family say, "We belong to the scientist's family." So what is the use of saying like that? You must become scientist. When you are a scientist then you are superior not by simply... This has killed the Indian, I mean Vedic culture when they began to claim superiority simply by birth without any qualification. That killed the whole civilization.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- April 10, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: He is in the heart of a dog also. Then dog is also Kṛṣṇa. So why one should go to the temple? He can worship his dog at home. If this logic is all right. (break) ...the verdict of the Rāmakrishna mission, "You can worship whatever you like. That is God." And therefore they have manufactured this word, daridra-nārāyaṇa. (break) Jāta-karma-saṁskāra, saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Saṁskāra, reformatory method, begins before the birth. Before the birth, when the father and mother have sex, that is called garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. That is also another ceremony. It is not a hidden fact. So saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. Otherwise it is birth like cats and dogs. That is Vedic civlization, saṁskāra before the birth and immediately after the birth, then one after another. This is called jata-karma; then nāma-karma; then when he is grown boy, upanayana-saṁskāra, dīkṣā-saṁskāra; then when he is grown up and marriage... Marriage is also another saṁskāra. In this way there are daśa-vidha-saṁskāra. So unless one goes through all the saṁskāras, he is not accepted as higher caste. He is śūdra. In a brāhmaṇa family, if the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, so it is said that immediately the whole family becomes śūdra, no more brāhmaṇas. Then where is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is going on? Nobody takes care of garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. Still, they are declaring that "I am brāhmaṇa." Therefore the conclusion is kālau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "Everyone is śūdra." (break) ...no education. Still, one is called paṇḍitji. What is the meaning of this "paṇḍitji?" If he is not learned, then why do you call him paṇḍitji? (laughing) (break) That paṇḍiya is also another form of paṇḍita.

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is avidhi-pūrvakam. That is said, avidhi-pūrvakam, "Not in order."

ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktā
yajanti śraddhānvitāḥ
te 'pi mām eva kaunteya
yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam

That is not vidhi. Vidhi is here. Śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam. The first word is Viṣṇu, of Viṣṇu, not of any other. So these are the demonstration of bhakti. Śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ (SB 7.5.23). This is arcanā. Just like we perform in the morning, in the evening, at noon, arcā-vigraha. Viṣṇu, arcayam, Viṣṇu. It is not idol worship. Arcayaṁ viṣṇu-śilā-dhiḥ. If one thinks the arcā-mūrti, the worshipable Deity in the temple, as stone or as wood, arcayaṁ viṣṇu-śilā-dhiḥ guruṣu nara-matiḥ... To accept guru, in the paramparā system... All the gurus in the paramparā system... Evaṁ paramparā prāptam (BG 4.2). Nara-matiḥ, consider him as ordinary human being... In this way there is a list. Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. A Vaiṣṇava, a devotee: "He is brāhmaṇa Vaiṣṇava. He is American Vaiṣṇava. He is śūdra Vaiṣṇava." No. When one is Vaiṣṇava, there should be no distinction by the caste. Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. In this way there is a list that should be avoided. So these things required. If actually... The same thing, that if a girl is married to the husband, she must be always engaged in the service of the husband. That will be appreciated. If she says, "Sir, now we are married. You go home and I remain at home," there will be no prayojana-siddhi.

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay:

Girirāja: "...and persons who are still following the Vedic ways, especially householders, keep at least one dozen cows and worship the Deity of Lord Viṣṇu..." (break)

Prabhupāda: In Indian villages—I have seen in Bengal—they keep cows, and they have got Viṣṇu śilā, especially in the house of a brāhmaṇa, all high caste (?). Yes. (break) Prahlāda Mahārāja, his father was a demon, but he was never afraid of Him. He was challenging, "Oh, my father..." He never said, "Father." He said, asura-varya: "the best of the demons." Tat sādhu manye asura-varya dehinām. When his father asked him, "My dear Prahlāda..." After all, he was child. "What you have learned best?" So he said, tat sādhu manye asura-varya. He is addressing his father, asura-varya, "the best of the demons." Tat sādhu manye: "I consider it very nice thing." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām.

Dr. Patel: So you think we are demons also.

Prabhupāda: No. (lots of laughter) Demons would not come daily to see Kṛṣṇa's ārati. That they'll not. That they'll not. No. I say that...

Dr. Patel: Tomorrow we are going to walk all the distance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I say that we devotees, we are not afraid even of demons. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Asad-grahāt. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). He asked the son, "What you have learned, the best thing, in school?" He said, "My dear asura-varya," not father, "My dear best of the demons, I think this is the best thing." "What is that?" "Now, these people," sadā samudvigna-dhiyām, "always anxious, full of anxiety..." Why? Asad-grahāt: "Because they accepted this material world as all in all." Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt: "On account of their accepting this material world as everything, therefore they are full of anxiety. Now, to get out of this anxiety, so-hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam-ātma-pātaṁ, suicidal place, gṛha, household life, they should give up." Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam. "And then what you will do?" "Oh." vanaṁ gato: "He should give up and go to the forest." "And then?" Vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta: (SB 7.5.5) "And take shelter of the lotus feet of Hari. I understand this is the best thing." And his father become more angry. "What this rascal is speaking?" like that. (laughing) (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. He's all right? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: 812.

Yogeśvara: (reads verse 18.42 in French)

Swiss Man (2): (French)

Yogeśvara: He says, "Does this Kṛṣṇa consciousness message apply as well to the outcastes?"

Prabhupāda: Outcaste? There are four castes only.

Swiss Man (1): But there are the outcastes...

Yogeśvara: Do you mean the untouchables?

Prabhupāda: Outcaste means those who are less than the śūdras. They are called pañcamas. These are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Śūdra means laborer class but they are also obedient to the other three classes. And less than that, they have been described as caṇḍālas, pañcamas, or untouchable as you say. But for us, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no such distinction. Anyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The pañcamas, the fifth class men are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍāla means untouchable. So they are also many: kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). There is... Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Yogeśvara: He says, in a sense we're something like the Buddhists because the Buddhists also don't take account of this, of the caste system.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Buddhist or anyone. Just like a person, when he is not educated in medical science he is not a medical man, but when he is properly educated in the medical science and he practices as a medical man, then he is a medical man. So you take it from Buddhism, or Hinduism; it doesn't matter. The thing is, consideration is, guṇa-karma. One must be qualified and he must work. Then he is elevated.

Yogeśvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (2): (French)

Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying, what we're saying is that spiritually, everyone is equal, which is actually the same as the Christian idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritually, not materially. Materially there must be distinction. Materially there must be distinction. But spiritually there is no distinction.

Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: There is nothing material before Kṛṣṇa. Because everything's coming from Kṛṣṇa. One who does not know Kṛṣṇa, it is material. One who knows Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual. Hm.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: "O best amongst the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging his prescribed duties, dharma, according to caste divisions and order of life, is to please the Lord Hari."

Prabhupāda: That's it. You may be scientist, you may be something else, but if you try to satisfy the Supreme Lord by your occupation, that is perfection. That is perfection. Read the purport.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Human society all over the world is divided into four castes and four orders of life. The four castes are the intelligent caste, the martial caste, the productive caste and the laborer caste. These castes are classified in terms of one's work and qualification and not by birth. Then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life, the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life. In the best interest of human society there must be such divisions of life, otherwise no social institution can grow in a healthy state. And in each and every one of the abovementioned divisions of life, the aim must be to please the supreme authority of the Personality of Godhead. This institutional function of human society is known as the system of varṇāśrama-dharma, which is quite natural for the civilized life. The varṇāśrama institution is constructed to enable one to realize the Absolute Truth. It is not for artificial domination of one division over another. When the aim of life, i.e., realization of the Absolute Truth, is missed by too much attachment for indriya-prīti, or sense gratification, as already discussed hereinbefore, the institution of the varṇāśrama is utilized by selfish men to pose an artificial predominance over the weaker section. In the Kali-yuga, or in the age of quarrel, this artificial predominance is already current, but the saner section of the people know it well that the divisions of castes and orders of life are meant for smooth social intercourse and high-thinking self-realization and not for any other purpose.

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: And that is already there. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The, the, in Vedic astrology, jāta-karma, they will say that "This child is a śūdra, this child is a brāhmaṇa, this child is a kṣatriya." By the birth, by the constellation of the stars, it will be done. It is already being done. And in the medical laboratory, the blood has been tested, brāhmaṇa, śūdra, vaiśya, there is different blood. Yes. The blood infusion. So if the, a different blood is infused, it does not act. So one doctor, in India, he was permanently keeping different bloods for different persons. So there is some meaning in the caste system. But that is not... In a brāhmaṇa family, a śūdra may also take birth. Śūdra blood. So to keep the blood brahminical, therefore the reformatory system is there, garbhādhāna-saṁskāra and all the saṁskāras. Before birth, they keep, to keep the blood brahminical, there is ceremony.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Jyotirmayī: So she said that in..., it is also explained that those who are not intelligent enough to study, or who are out of caste, so they cannot, they don't have the right to study, then it is said that they can attain God directly by surrendering unto God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. It does not require education, knowledge or anything. If he agrees to surrender to the lotus feet of God, then his life is perfect. That is stated in the Vedic literature, naradita yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?). "If one has surrendered himself to the lotus feet of God and worshiped Him, there is no more need of austerity and penances." And naradita yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?). "If one has not learned how to surrender to God and worship Him, then all his austerities, knowledge, are useless." Antar-bahiḥ yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?), "If one can see God within and outside, then where is the necessity of austerity?" And naradita..., nan tad yadi bahi hari sthapasata tat (?), "If one has not learned to see God within and without, then where is the value of his austerity and penances?" Therefore God realization is the only business of the human being.

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Because they are on the spiritual platform, they forget the material designation.

Reverend Powell: They're mostly young people, aren't they, or are they, you have all ages?

Prabhupāda: Yes, young, young people, they have got brain, (Reverend Powell laughs) receptive.

Reverend Powell: Yes, yes, rightly. And I might also inquire... I take it that you feel... Forgive me if I'm not using the right expression, but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, we have no caste system.

Reverend Powell: Well, I'm sorry. The brāhmaṇa, the śūdras and so on, per se.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to... Find out the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Reverend Powell: Your base there is in Bombay?

Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta.

Reverend Powell: Calcutta, ah. I was there many years ago, I knew...

Prabhupāda: You have been in Calcutta?

Reverend Powell: Yes, I have. I crossed from Karachi and Delhi, I went down to Agra, and I gather this...

Prabhupāda: Yes, for people coming from England to Australia, they passed through Calcutta or Bombay, like that.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Ah, that verse. This index has been done by them. Yes.

Brahmānanda:

yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya
vartate kāma-kārataḥ
na sa siddhim avāpnoti
na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim
(BG 16.23)

"But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination." "As described before, the śāstra-vidhim, or the direction of the śāstra, is given to the different castes and orders of human society. Everyone is expected to follow these rules and regulations. If one does not follow them and acts whimsically according to his lust, greed, and desire, then he never will be perfect in his life. In other words, a man may theoretically know all these things, but if he does not apply them in his own life, then he is to be known as the lowest of mankind. In the human form of life, a living entity is expected to be sane and to follow the regulations given for elevating his life to the highest platform, but if he does not follow them, then he degrades himself. But even if he follows the rules and regulations and moral principles and ultimately does not come to the stage of understanding the Supreme Lord, then all his knowledge becomes spoiled. Therefore one should gradually raise himself to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service; it is then and there that he can attain the highest perfectional stage, not otherwise. The word kāma-kārataḥ is very significant. A person who knowingly violates the rules acts in lust. He knows that this is forbidden, still he acts. This is called acting whimsically. He knows that this should be done, but still he does not do it; therefore he is called whimsical. Such persons are destined to be condemned by the Supreme Lord. Such persons cannot have the perfection which is meant for the human life. The human life is especially meant for purifying one's existence, and one who does not follow the rules and regulations cannot purify himself, nor can he attain to the real stage of happiness."

Prabhupāda: So, arrangement is...? Just see.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We can go? (end)

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Now try this. This is the latest. (laughter) You are after latest. This is the latest.

Jayadharma: Sometimes people may say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that we're just trying to introduce the old caste system from India that never worked anyway.

Prabhupāda: That caste system is already there. We are also..., we have got poor class, rich class. The Communists, they have also worker class, manager class, although the Communists against class system. But I have seen, they have made this classification: worker class, manager class. Why do you make this? That is efficiency. Leader class, follower class. Otherwise there will be chaos. This is natural.

Amogha: The divisions of work are naturally there. You can't avoid them.

Prabhupāda: Even in your body there is class. The head class, the arm class, the belly class, the leg class. They are working differently for benefit of the whole body. That is natural. If you avoid and if you simply keep the leg, then it will be chaotic condition. Or even if you keep the head only, that will not stand. There must be four. That is natural. That is the Vedic mantra it is said—you are reading the other day—the brāhmaṇas, they came out of the mouth. The kṣatriyas, they came out of the arms. The vaiśyas, they came out of the belt. And the śūdras, they came out of the legs. This is mantra. How you can avoid it? Kṛṣṇa says, "It is My creation. How you can avoid it?" You cannot avoid anything which is created by Kṛṣṇa. Just like sunshine. It is created by Kṛṣṇa. You cannot say, "No, no. I don't want sunshine." That is foolishness. If you want to avoid, then you'll suffer. The sunshine is there, and if you go into the dark place, and cover yourself, then the sunshine is outside, that's all. The sun may not suffer—you'll suffer. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says that "This caste system is created by Me." If you don't accept it, then you'll suffer. Kṛṣṇa will not suffer. (leaves car) ...introducing the caste system, we are introducing a system which, you follow, you'll be happy. Not caste system. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Jayadharma: They say in India that the caste system apparently is not working.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Amogha: Shall I answer?

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Amogha: But at present the caste system in India isn't actually representative of the original varṇāśrama dharma system. The original system was a cooperation, organized cooperation between four kinds of men which are naturally there in society. Just like now we can see that some people are working as laborers, some people are working as merchants, and some people politicians and lawyers, some are teachers. Originally they were organized so that the priests, or priestly order, were benefiting everyone by their teaching. And so that they could fully concentrate on that, they were not engaged in working for food and money. But what happened in this age, was that the higher caste became fallen, and they misused their high position, and instead of helping everyone by their teaching, they misused the position, or exploited the position, simply for selfish ends, so there became a conflict between the...

Prabhupāda: Vested interest.

Amogha: Vested interest. Yes. So then there was conflict between the lower and the higher and it broke down. So what we're teaching is not actually the caste system as it is now or it was recently, but...

Prabhupāda: You have also caste system in the Western countries. You are not without caste system. There is a priestly class. So there are politicians, there are industrialists, merchants, and ordinary laborer. Where is...? How you can say there is no caste system in your country?

Jayadharma: But there may be the clergymen and the mercantile class and the soldiers and the laborers, in this particular society, but this society is breaking away from that because they are not recognizing the clergy class of men because nobody is going to church, nor is anybody giving any money to the church these days. This is why many churches...

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think, that you say that your charge is "They are introducing caste system." But the Hindu caste system is already there. How do you say that I am introducing? That is my point.

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: (laughing lightly) You cannot say that I have introduced it. It is already there. As it is there in India, it is also everywhere. It may be under different names. The four classes are already there, everywhere. The... Even in Muslim, they have also got the (indistinct), what is called, mohallas, priestly class. They have got. We are introducing the systematic caste system, but caste system is already there, everywhere. Maybe under different names. And it is necessary. The caste system is there as a matter of necessity. You cannot abolish it. But it is now existing in a deformed manner. People should be systematic and organized. That we are trying to. Not that a new thing we are trying to introduce. It is already there. Our proposition is that "You priestly class, you must act exactly as a priest-ideal priest. You are a drunkard, you are woman-hunter, you are doing everything nonsense, and at the same time you are passing on as priest—this should be stopped." This should be stopped. The priestly class, or the brāhmaṇas, they should be trained up to become truthful, how to control mind, how to control senses, and tolerant, and very learned, knowing God also—these things are required. They should be the first-class, ideal men. Similarly, the kṣatriyas, they must be fearless; they must be very boldly, face fighting the enemies; they must have the capacity to govern nicely so that people will not have any complaint against the government. In this way they should be trained up. And the mercantile class of man, they should produce enough food grains, not motor tires. That is śūdra's business—artisans—that is śūdra. The vaiśyas' business is first to see that in the country there is enough food for eating—both for the human being and the animals. The human being should not complain that there is no sufficient food grains, therefore they're eating flesh. No. Flesh is not for human being. They should live on food grains. Just like dahl. Dahl is as good as meat. It is from food grain. And there is sufficient varieties of dahl they can eat. They can make so many preparations, palatable preparations. Why are the prices of food grains increasing? Because there is shortage. If there is enough food, the price will automatically decrease, because everyone want to sell. So, the price will decrease, naturally. It will be so lavishly available that you can give food grains even to the animals, like cows and goats and other so many animals. Let them eat. That is the business of the vaiśya man. And go-rakṣya. Another business is to protect the cows, and to give them food nicely so the cows will give enough milk. And from milk, you know, so many nice preparations, all full of vitamins.

Morning Walk -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

Madhudviṣa: Hm.

Prabhupāda: Huh? There is no loss, still they will not do it. We don't say that don't live in the... We are living in nice building; you also live in nice building. But see, do, see what we are doing there. Everyone can do it. Everyone can... That is Vedic culture, and everywhere Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa-śilā is worshiped. At least the higher castes, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—not the śūdras. Don't eat meat, don't have intoxication, no illicit sex, have Kṛṣṇa's picture, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, make nice preparation, where is the difficulty? Take this civilization.

Devotee: Many karmīs think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you are born and then you die and that is the finish.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: Many karmīs think that you are born and then you die and then finish.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not the fact. You are born a child, then you get a youthful body, where you are finished? Does it mean that when the childish body is finished, the soul is also finished? Why he remembers, "Oh I was a child like this." This is simple argument. Where you are finished?

Madhudviṣa: You can see the progression. When you are born you are small...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Find out this verse.

Śrutakīrti:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ
svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
(SB 1.2.13)

"Oh best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging his prescribed duties, dharma, according to caste divisions and order of life, is to please the Lord, Hari."

Prabhupāda: That is religion. That should be developed, that "Whether by my profession, by my business, by my talent, by my capacities..." There are different categories. "Whether I have pleased God?" Then it is successful. If you have pleased God by your legal profession—you are in a different dress—it doesn't matter. You are as good as they are whole time only serving God. Because their business is also to please God. Similarly, if you have pleased God, then even by practicing your law, you are as good as the saintly person. That should be the aim, "Whether I have pleased God with my professional duty or occupational duty?" That is the standard. Let people take up this. We don't say that "You change your position. You become a sannyāsī or you give up your profession and become bald-headed." No, we don't say that. (laughs) We are by nature. (laughter) So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you remain in your position, but see whether by your discharge of duties you have pleased God.

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Yogi Bhajan: No, no, the question is very simple, what the people will ask you. The caste system, what did to India...

Prabhupāda: This is not caste system.

Yogi Bhajan: It turned into.

Prabhupāda: This is classification of the human being. This is not caste system. Just like we are making this American boy a brāhmaṇa. So this is a brāhmaṇa caste?

Yogi Bhajan: No, but that is only...

Prabhupāda: We have been training them to, how to acquire the brāhmaṇa qualification. It doesn't matter whether he is coming from Christian family or Mohammedan family, this... No. Just like if you train one how to become engineer, it doesn't matter from which family he comes. It doesn't matter. Any family, he can come. He can be trained how to speak truthfulness. Satyam. What is that? So...

Devotee: The verse is...

Prabhupāda: Satya śama damaḥ titikṣa. You don't find?

Devotee: I thought it was the verse about the qualities of a brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, what is that?

Devotee: "Peacefulness, self..."

Prabhupāda: No, no, what is the Sanskrit verse?

Devotee: The one I have is text forty-two of Chapter Eighteen, but I don't think that's the one you're quoting from.

Prabhupāda: What is the verse? You cannot read?

Devotee: Śamo damas tapaḥ...

Prabhupāda: Ah, śamo damaḥ, that's it.

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, everyone is welcome. But they must see what is our ideal. Then one day they will also come. So our ideal should be always there, not that we make some compromise. Then it will not be effective.

Dharmādhyakṣa: In the catalogue we say that to get a degree one must be following the regulative principles, that that is as much an important requirement as the study, academic study.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very important thing. Otherwise, just like in India, there are caste brāhmaṇas, but they have no ideal, and therefore it is not working.

Bahulāśva: Two āratiks a day, sixteen rounds—these would be also course requirements.

Dharmādhyakṣa: In the study of theology, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is a section called phenomenology, and phenomenology means the study of the actual practices. So actually, they already have this, but they don't actually practice themselves in their schools. But in our schools we would demand practice. (break)

Bahulāśva: ...could also learn what is Deity worship, how it should be performed. They'd have to learn about chanting...

Prabhupāda: A brāhmaṇa's business is paṭhan pāṭhan yajan yājan danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. Brāhmaṇa means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brāhmaṇa's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called paṭhan pāṭhan. Then yajan yājan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Kṛṣṇa said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right. (break) ...the western culture, the idea is "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D, so let him become teacher." This is western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahiḥ. Antar means internally, and bahiḥ means external. We... That chant, that ācamana mantra?

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: A brāhmaṇa's business is paṭhan pāṭhan yajan yājan danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. Brāhmaṇa means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brāhmaṇa's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called paṭhan pāṭhan. Then yajan yājan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Kṛṣṇa said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right. (break) ...the western culture, the idea is "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D, so let him become teacher." This is western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahiḥ. Antar means internally, and bahiḥ means external. We... That chant, that ācamana mantra?

apavitraḥ pavitro vā
sarvāvasthaṁ gato 'pi vā
yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ
sa bahyābhyāntara-śuciḥ

Bahya means external, and abhyāntara means internal, not duplicity. That bahya, externally something, and internally something, that will not be successful. Bahyābhyāntaraṁ śuciḥ. Śuciḥ means purified, brāhmaṇa. And who is not purified, he is muciḥ. (break) We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don't want stars. We want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. (break) ...not expect everyone to become brāhmaṇa. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ, four division? He could have done one kind of men. But all of them can be utilized in Kṛṣṇa consciousness if they are guided properly. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). One can get perfection, even becoming a śūdra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brāhmaṇas can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. No. The śūdras also can become, provided he is guided by the brāhmaṇa. (break) At the present moment the whole human society is full of śūdras. There is no brāhmaṇas. So you have to train real brāhmaṇas. (break) ...how respectfully received that Sudāmā Vipra, not that because he was a caste brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Unmotivated means "Oh, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, service of Kṛṣṇa, is so nice. Let me begin immediately." Now, "What will be the result? What shall I gain? What is the profit?" No such consideration. "Begin immediately." And if you begin in that way, there is no impediment. Apratihatā. It is so nice thing. In the material world, if you want to begin some work, then you require some preliminary qualification. It doesn't require any preliminary qualification. Whatever qualification you have got, that is sufficient. Begin. And nobody can say, "Oh, I am not educated," "I am not rich," or "I am not born of a high family." There are so many. No. These things are not impediments. Educated or uneducated, culture or no culture, it doesn't matter. You can begin immediately. The Indian culture was checked by the caste brāhmaṇas, that "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is meant for the Hindus." Therefore it was not spread. Such a great thing, philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā, remained covered because they thought it is meant for the Hindus, for the Indians, or those who came out of India, they misinterpreted in a rubbish way. And now it is being presented as it is, it is becoming effective. Therefore apratihatā: nothing material can check its progress. Unless one voluntarily refuses it, there is no checking. Some other professor was to come?

Brahmānanda: Yes, but he did not come.

Morning Walk -- July 1, 1975, Denver:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When we distribute these books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we think that it is you who are distributing them, that they are your books, and we are simply assisting to offer them to people. It is actually you who are doing all the preaching.

Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's book, we are all servants, engaged. (break) (laughing) Here your parents accusing me, and in India the caste brāhmaṇas accusing me. My standing... I do not know what is my standing. Your parents are accusing me, "This rascal, converting our sons to become mendicant without any material enjoyment." And there, "This rascal is giving sacred thread to the mlecchas and yavanas." (Still laughing)

Viṣṇujana: Is that why you keep traveling, Prabhupāda, so they won't catch you?

Prabhupāda: Nārada Muni was accused by Prajāpati Dakṣa that "You are traveling in the dress of a sādhu, but you are the most sinful man. You have turned my sons in the renounced order of life to become beggar, without any advancement, without any enjoyment." So that accusation is always there, beginning from Nārada Muni down to us. Some parents came to demonstrate?

Brahmānanda: In Los Angeles, yes. I understand they've demonstrated before, someone was saying? They had placards, and they were marching.

Bhāvānanda: In Laguna Beach they also.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Dr. Judah has said...

Brahmānanda: He has dedicated his book, "To the parents and to the devotees."

Prabhupāda: He has tried to pacify the parents.

Morning Walk -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You got a report?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...happy that we're taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...brāhmaṇas. are sensing danger because they see that these Europeans are worshiping Deity, temple. Then gradually there will be no caste brāhmaṇa. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...Mahāprabhu also had difficulty with the caste brāhmaṇas?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They complained to the magistrate that "What kind of religion He is introducing? It is not our Hindu religion. So chastise Him." (break) ...report of the brāhmaṇas, the police came and broke these drums. It was not the fault of the Mohammedans. The brāhmaṇas lodged complaint against Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he has to take step. They said, "It is not Hindu religion. They are disturbing God by chanting so loudly. (laughter) Now the God is sleeping and they are disturbing, 'Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So stop this." So what can he do? After all, he is public servant. Therefore he took steps.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: As it is. We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, not symbolically.

Sandy Nixon: Are you attempting to revive... I feel like asking this question two different ways. First I'll ask it one way which is, in a sense, incorrect. Maybe I'll just ask it this way and just get your answer. Are you attempting to revive in the West the awareness... Are you attempting to revive the ancient Indian caste system in the West?

Prabhupāda: Where do you find we are reviving caste system? Where do you find? First of all let me know. Why you are asking this question? If you have seen that we are trying to introduce the Indian caste system, then you say. But if there is no such attempt, why you are asking this question?

Sandy Nixon: Well, because a lot of people are interested, and...

Prabhupāda: No, no, lot of people, you are also one of them. So where do you find that we are trying to introduce caste system? First of all find out where is the attempt. Then you ask question. Otherwise it is irrelevant question.

Sandy Nixon: The Gītā mentions the caste system.

Prabhupāda: Gītā, what mentions, do you know?

Sandy Nixon: The four castes and an untouchable caste.

Prabhupāda: What is that? On the basis of what?

Sandy Nixon: I can't locate it directly.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda. Who has said that this is caste system? This is not caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and according to work, there are four divisions of men. Just like you can understand there are engineers and there are medical practitioners. So do you take them as caste? "Oh, he is engineer caste. He is medical caste." Do you say like that?

Sandy Nixon: I don't want to say what I feel because I'm recording you. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: I'm asking you, I'm asking you...

Sandy Nixon: Well, I think there's always been castes. It's just that we don't recognize the fact that they're there.

Prabhupāda: No, recognize means if a man is qualified medical man we accept him as medical man. And if a man is qualified engineer, we accept him as engineer. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā suggests—not suggest, it is there—there are four classes of men, the most intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men and ordinary worker. That is already there. Bhagavad-gītā says how they should be classified, that "He belongs to this class, he belongs to that class." That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, not that by birth, hereditarily, one becomes a caste. You don't try to misunderstand. The classification is already there: one class of men, very intelligent. Is he not there in the human society? Do you think all men are equally intelligent? Do you think? There must be one class, very highly intelligent class. So what are the symptoms of the intelligent class? That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. The first-class intelligent man... (break) ...you find all these qualities, he is first-class man. So we are trying to introduce that, that without first-class man, the society is useless. So there are first-class men. You train up. Just like a boy is intelligent; still, he requires training in the school, college. Then he maintains his first-class brain, first-class position. So there is first-class man. Now we have to train them properly how to become controller of the mind, how to become controller of the senses, how to become truthful, how to become cleansed internally, externally, how to become full of knowledge, how to try to apply the knowledge in practical life, how to become God conscious. This training is... A first-class man can take up, just like they are taking, all these boys. They had their first-class brain, and now they are being trained up. That is required, trained up first-class men. That training is required. So we are not introducing caste system, that any rascal born in a brāhmaṇa family, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. We don't accept that. A man who is first-class trained up to become a brāhmaṇa, we accept him. It doesn't matter whether he is India or Europe or America. It doesn't matter. We are trying to introduce this system. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. Caste system means a man is born in a brāhmaṇa family, and if by habit he is fifth-class man, and he is accepted first-class man on account of birth. Similarly, a person, very intelligent, he can be adaptable to all first-class habit, but because he is born in a śūdra family, he is śūdra. We want to stop this nonsense. We are picking up first-class brain and training up how to become first-class men. This is our business, not that introducing this rubbish thing. No, we are not introducing. Otherwise how I am offering them sacred thread? Now just see. Anyone from India, he will understand he is a first-class brāhmaṇa. We are training like that.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: So this instruction is strīṣu duṣṭāsu: "When women become polluted, there is unwanted population." That is coming all over the world, the hippies. Therefore the first thing is how to train up women not to become polluted. This is the way of... In the modern society they have given women freedom. That I have already explained. In the name of freedom of woman, they are being exploited. Everything is there: social, religious, political, cultural, educational. We have to accept that course. Then everything will be all right. If you don't accept, then you have to suffer problems. It is not meant for a particular class of men or particular country, it is meant for the whole human society. Therefore, this purification of the society at the present, fallen condition is very, very difficult to revive. Because people are so fallen, it is almost impossible. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that "You all together chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be done nicely."

harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam
kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva (gatir anyathā)
(CC Adi 17.21)

In Kali-yuga it is very difficult to reform the whole human society to become perfect by this process, Vedic process. It is not possible. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu's, that "You chant congregationally this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Never mind. Whatever impurities have entered, it will be all cleansed." That you have seen yesterday in the procession. So everyone was chanting in ecstasy Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have seen? Yes. So this is the process which we are trying to introduce, not anything, caste system or this system, no. Then everything will come automatically. Easiest process.

Morning Walk -- September 9, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...in the Back to Godhead that those who have come to Vṛndāvana for sense gratification, their next birth is monkey and dog in Vṛndāvana; then, next birth, liberated. So they became angry. Vṛndāvana is not for sense gratification. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura therefore says,

rūpa raghunātha pade haibe ākuti
kabe hāma bujhabo se yugala pīriti

The rasa-līlā of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, a person like Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, "I could not understand it because I have not yet studied the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī and Raghunātha Gosvāmī, six Gosvāmīs. How can I understand?" So these people, they think by seeing rasa-līlā by professional men they will understand the līlā of Kṛṣṇa. Rūpa-Raghunātha instruction not cared for. But without going through the literature, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, nobody can understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

rūpa raghunātha pade haibe ākuti
kabe hāma bujhabo se yugala pīriti
(Hindi) ...Goddess Kali.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? You mention in your book that recently they have begun some demigod worship in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not recently. Since very long time. These gosvāmīs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Caste gosvāmīs. But originally this was not the fact.

Prabhupāda: Originally there was Rūpa Gosvāmī. Now they are imitating. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end)

Press Conference -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Guest (3) (Indian man): Have you any program for the common people?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Common people have joined. Everyone. We are opening centers so that any common man from any caste, any creed, any nation, they can come and join.

Guest (2): My friend, perhaps you would like to do... I know you are doing some social work for...

Prabhupāda: This is the best social work. We are making animal into man. Already I have begun this, that because they are not educated how to become human being, so they remain animals. So this is the best social work, that we are bringing animals, two-legged animals, to real human being. If a human being is not properly educated, he remains an animal. So this is the proper education. Therefore we are bringing animals to human being.

Guest (3): Has your movement arranged once any particular event which is a movement in a particular country?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. When we are many in number, then we shall take politics also. Yes. First of all let there be perfect men. If there is no perfect men, the government will be imperfect. If there is perfect men, the government will be perfect.

Morning Walk -- Durban, October 13, 1975 :

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hate everything Indian.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That was the policy of education. So as soon as one became graduate and educated, he began to hate everything Indian original, and if he would get some clerk's business, service in some office, and his life is successful. That is still going on. So our car is here?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's just up here, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇa became by caste brāhmaṇa. He will do everything nonsense and still, he remains a brāhmaṇa. But you can introduce the original Vedic culture in this Europe and America. You have understood. You can do it. By this material civilization they will never be happy, and it is risky. That they do not know. They do not believe in the transmigration of the soul. So irresponsibly… Or just like these elderly persons, how they are wasting time.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just sitting on the beach.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only sitting, they have no other engagement. They do not know how human life should be utilized. They do not know. They are simply taking consideration of the body, running or skating or this or that, but they have no other engagement. They do not believe that there is soul and that soul's business is first business. They do not know that, neither they do accept it. They are under nature's law, very simply explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, dehino ’smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. By nature's law you have to change your body. It is evident. Still, they will not believe. We’re changing body every moment, and they will say, big, big professors, that after the body is finished, everything is finished. This is ajñāna. And that is going on as education, whole world. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." The whole world is in ignorance, so we are giving them wise instruction. They are thinking, "These people are crazy men." That's all.

Morning Walk -- November 2, 1975, Nairobi:

Brahmānanda: There was a man yesterday at Dabji's house who was the brāhmaṇa who was officiating. He is a very much caste conscious brāhmaṇa, and although he and Shah were the first ones to meet you at the Nairobi airport when you arrived, in Nairobi, as soon as he heard your philosophy, he has never come. He came the first day only when you first arrived, and since that day he has never come. And yesterday I think he must have just come because Shah forced him. But he does not at all like our philosophy that brāhmaṇa by qualification. He is very staunch—"brāhmaṇa by birth."

Devotee (5): They always say the Africans could never become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: How they are becoming?

Devotee (5): They don't believe.

Prabhupāda: Believe? You do not see even?

Devotee (5): But they say that "Oh, he will do it, and then, after one year, he will stop."

Prabhupāda: Well, that is another criticism. Somebody is eating nice yogurt. Everyone will say, "Oh, it is very nice. It is very nice, very nice." Another man says, "Yes, it is nice, but after three days it will be sour." (laughter) You rascal, you consider for the present. What "after three days"? Means he's a bad critic, so he could not find out any fault. Everyone says it is good. So "After three days it will be bad." This sort of criticism. So you have already become bad. You were doing service to others. What does he do, that priest?

Brahmānanda: He's a businessman.

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 4, 1976, Nellore:

Prabhupāda: And you did not know that they are not.... If they are mlecchas, then you are nārakī. It is said, vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ nārakī. Yes. Ārcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ nārakī. Anyone who considers in terms of caste a Vaiṣṇava, he's a nārakī. Nārakī. Now, just like we go to the temple to see the Deities. Many millions of people are coming, but everyone knows that this is made of stone. But they are going to see the stone?

Indian man: There is God in it.

Prabhupāda: Huh? They are going to see the stone? So arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhiḥ. Anyone who thinks like that.... Similarly, everyone knows that he is European, he is American, but because he is Vaiṣṇava, one should not see like that, "mleccha." If he sees, then he's nārakī.

Yaśodānandana: It also proves that they have no faith in the holy name, because the hari-nāma purifies everything.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: (aside:) Did that swami show that article to Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yaj-jihvāgre nāma tubhyām (sic). Aho bata svapa.

Hariśauri: (aside:) Did he?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Mahārāja, did you show that article to...?

Prabhupāda: Why do you speak in the middle? You should hear. Yaj-jihvāgre nāma tubham, yan-nāma śruti-mātrena pumān bhavati nirmalaḥ. And this rascals says the nāma has no.... See. We have to meet simply rascals all over. The so-called religionists, so-called swamis, so-called yogis, so-called politicians. You see? Simply we have to meet with all rascals.

Morning Walk -- January 8, 1976, Nellore:

Prabhupāda: So this cannot stay in the court. Kṛṣṇa's instruction is not for the Hindus. Nowhere it is mentioned.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The word "Hindu" doesn't appear in the Vedas anywhere.

Acyutānanda: Then why do you use in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness the Hindu caste marks, Hindus caste marks and tilakas? This is all Hinduism.

Prabhupāda: No, this is not Hinduism. Appears like Hindu. Just like you appear like an Indian sannyāsī, but you are not Indian.

Acyutānanda: The judge is wearing a white wig and a British suit. He's not British either.

Prabhupāda: No, we are clearly stating Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Harikeśa: Yes, but Kṛṣṇa is a Hindu god.

Prabhupāda: That is your definition. Kṛṣṇa doesn't say.

Harikeśa: But my definition counts 'cause I'm in charge.

Prabhupāda: You can do any nonsense. That is.... Therefore you have to be taken to the court, that "How you can..."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they are the court.

Prabhupāda: "...talk like nonsense and do like nonsense? Then anyone can do any nonsense thing? Then who will control you?"

Harikeśa: That's the point.

Morning Walk -- January 12, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (break) ...tato bhāvaḥ sādhakānām ayam premnaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ. (break) Vaiṣṇava doesn't make any discrimination that "He is Hindu," "He is Muslim," "He is this and that." He takes everyone as servant of Kṛṣṇa. (break) In India the caste brāhmaṇas criticize me that "Swami Bhaktivedanta is putting Hindu dharma ruin." Yes.

Dr. Patel: Bhagavad-gītā never.... I think cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth vibhāgaśaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Never.

Dr. Patel: It is by guṇa and karma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Not by position of birth.

Prabhupāda: No, it is clearly explained by Nārada Muni, that one has to be judged by the qualification. If the qualification.... Yady anyatrāpi diśetaḥ. If the qualification is somewhere else, then he must be designated by that qualification. Just like.... doctor's.... (Hindi) (break) ...qualification of medical man and you are practicing, that's all. Who is concerned with your caste?

Dr. Patel: So catur-varṇa is according to guṇa and karma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- January 12, 1976, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: So catur-varṇa is according to guṇa and karma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Not according to his birth and position of money, birth and wealth.

Prabhupāda: And anyone can be trained up to be qualified. That medical science is open to everyone. It is not that "Such and such caste can come here." No, anyone, if you are qualified, that's all. They are accusing me that I am ruining Hinduism, but they have ruined the Hinduism.

Dr. Patel: You say, sir, "The Bengalis have ruined Hinduism; I am salvaging it." Another Bengali is salvaging the ruined Hinduism. Bengalis ruined the.... Whole Bengal, half of Bengal turned Islamic and this because of these brāhmaṇas.

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere, in Punjab also. Punjab also, the same thing.

Dr. Patel: One man was cast out and he was not taken back, so he converted half of the Bengal into Islam.

Prabhupāda: No. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is: "Doesn't matter what you are. Now you become trained up. Whatever you are, it doesn't matter."

Morning Walks -- January 22-23, 1976, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if ugly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That... One, our Sanskrit professor used to... "My dear boys, even there is beauty amongst the negroes." He used to say. And it is my... It is one's eye that she is very beautiful. It does not recommend others' recommendation. Yar saṅge ye morje man kibari ki vardana(?). It doesn't matter whether she low caste or high caste; if she is attractive, then it is all right. Therefore rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction are very, very nice. You know my story? My father's instruction? Yes.

Harikeśa: What was that?

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) My wife was never beautiful to my sight, so I wanted to marry again, and my father advised, "Don't do it. She is your friend, that you don't like her." (laughs) Just see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But still, Prabhupāda, you said that your school work was a little impeded...

Prabhupāda: Huh? No, that is natural. In young time, when there is young girl... That is also said, yauvane kukkarī sundarī. When woman is in full youth, even she is like dog, she is beautiful. (laughs) Yauvane kukkarī sundarī.

Morning Walk -- February 5, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Without varṇāśrama-dharma there is no civilization. Yes. They are trying to abolish this under the name of "caste system." It is not caste system. Caste system, or whatever you call, there must be these four division. Not four, eight. This is general, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Then, according to the brahminical culture, the spiritual, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. And after sannyāsa, then spiritual life, complete, śuddha-sattva. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you have to establish varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāra. Ācāra. Ācāra. Varṇāśrama ācāra. Yes. Because the aim is... Again we come to the... Just like state affairs going on, but ultimate aim is to keep the government satisfied. Then you'll get everything nicely. Similarly, the supreme government or supreme governor is God. That is your duty, to keep Him satisfied. Then you get all direction, all facilities and life. That is the aim. But these rascals, they do not know what is government or who is the governor. They are doing anything whimsically, and they're punished. Prakṛti is there. Prakṛti is there. Government does not want that you suffer, but you violate the government's law. Therefore you suffer. That these rascals do not understand. They declare, "There is no government." So this is foolishness, ignorance, mūḍha. There is government, he sees, and still he is rascal. He says, "No, no, I don't care for anyone. There is no government." That is atheism; that is hooliganism.

Morning Walk -- February 18, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: And we want to make Mohammedans Hindus.

Acyutānanda: Yes. They also do that. They try and... Mainly they try and reconvert the Christians. They get some results. And they pander to the tribal castes so that they don't convert to Christianity. The Mohammedans and Christians have refused to use birth control, so they think that their population will soon outnumber the Hindus. So they are afraid that the Mohammedan and Christian block will sway elections in the future. (break)

Jayapatākā: Brahmacārīs don't like to take the instructions from the elder devotees, and then they want to take sannyāsa, so they think they can be independent and give orders themself and not listen.

Prabhupāda: Therefore not to be given all of a sudden. (break)...to become sevaka. Everyone wants to become sevya.

Hṛdayānanda: Served.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And, ultimately, God. Se pasha pasha pasha bo... (?) When everything failure, then to become God.

Morning Walk -- February 19, 1976, Mayapura:

Acyutānanda: I... I think, only in the world, that is the real country where people are really starving, in Russia.

Prabhupāda: Russia, yes.

Acyutānanda: Now they're having drought, and trying to get wheat from a freezing cold land. And they have their favorite class, also. The Party members are only a fraction of the population, and they get all the benefits.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Acyutānanda: So they have their caste system also. It was created out of envy...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Acyutānanda: ...for the... That's all.

Prabhupāda: I think I have discussed this.

Acyutānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Marx's failure.

Morning Walk -- February 19, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Cāṇakya is authority. Otherwise, why you have named "Cāṇakya Purī"? He's as good as Gandhi and other big, big men. So it is said, viśvāso naiva kartavyaṁ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu ca.(?)I am innocent. I am quoting authority.

Acyutānanda: Yes. Yes, you can say that is the statement of Cāṇakya. One foolish man... I was saying, "Some...," in my lectures, "some foolish scholar has written that because Kṛṣṇa is black, He is a scheduled caste." So there was a scheduled caste man in the audience who became educated. So he took offense. "Well, maybe Kṛṣṇa was the leader of the scheduled caste." So I said then, "that is the statement of some scholar. You cannot criticize me. I am quoting a scholar." The audience shouted him down too. (break) Śūdras and yavanas may become brāhmaṇas, but many of them don't.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Acyutānanda: So many born śūdras are śūdras, many times.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Acyutānanda: But artificially the government process is to give benefits and prestige to the harijanas without being qual...

Prabhupāda: Without training.

Morning Walk -- February 19, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Without training.

Acyutānanda: Training.

Prabhupāda: Without making him harijana...

Acyutānanda: A harijana may become a brāhmaṇa, but sometimes a harijana is a scheduled caste.

Prabhupāda: Harijana means methara. As soon as he comes, if he says, "I am harijana" then immediately you understand that he is a sweeper.

Acyutānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is the position.

Acyutānanda: And now, in many cases, they forcibly occupy some land, and they create disturbance, and the local people set fire and drive them out. We call a barber...

Prabhupāda: Mūḍha. Anyone who's not a Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's a mūḍha, bās. Narādhama, bās.

Acyutānanda: We call a barber, and he shaves one, and we said, "Now sharpen again," and he does not bring his stone. "Go back and bring your stone." But even in the free society, American society, they have union. And that is caste. To protect the employment, one union man cannot do the work of another union or he'll put another man out of work. So they stay in their place. So that is sva-dharma and para-dharma. So the same principle is natural, svābhāvika, again appears naturally. Hmm? Just like we... In my house we purchased a piano. One union is hired to bring the piano from the shop to the lorry, another set of workers will lift the piano and put it into the lorry, and another union will take the, from the lorry into your house. So you have to hire about nine different men, because they'll say, "No, now our work is finished up to this point."

Prabhupāda: In America?

Acyutānanda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Reporter -- June 3, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So, we are coming from material nature. That means we are..., material nature is our mother. From the womb of mother, the child comes from. So, from the material nature everything is coming. Therefore according to Vedic knowledge, this earth is also mother. We have got seven mothers according to Vedic civilization:

ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī
brāhmaṇī rāja-patnikā
dhenur dhātrī tathā pṛthvī
saptaitā mātaraḥ smṛtāḥ

Ātma-mātā means original mother, real mother. And guroḥ patnī, the wife of teacher. The wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intellectual class of men in the human society, brāhmaṇa. It is not a caste. It is a section in every human society. Always, there is a class of men very intelli..., intelligent. They are called brāhmaṇa. So, ātma-mātā, guroḥ patnī, brāhmaṇī, rāja-patnikā, and the queen—formerly there were kings—she is also considered mother. And dhenu means cow is mother because we drink her milk. She supplies milk. That's mother. And pṛthvī, in the earth, we are coming out. Earth is mother. Really we see coming. And there may be different varieties of sons. That doesn't matter. But anything coming out the earth—the earth is mother—and that is coming out, that is son. Then where is the father? There must be father. Is it possible mother can give birth to a child without father?

Reporter: Mm?

Prabhupāda: Is it possible?

Reporter: I wouldn't think so.

Garden Conversation -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: Or May-June-July. How many months?

Mādhavānanda: It begins in the last part of May and it ends at the beginning part of September.

Prabhupāda: So May, June, July, August, at least four months. Four months. (long pause)

Jayādvaita: At the college programs, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and I have been giving a lot of classes on varṇāśrama-dharma. Because they always want to hear something about the Hindu caste system, so they'll take us on that basis. And then we speak about varṇāśrama-dharma. And they don't have any idea to defeat it. They always, some little weak argument, but they don't have any better system.

Prabhupāda: What is their argument?

Jayādvaita: Hardly.... Well, they have some idea, they argue that there's no social mobility, because they all have some bodily idea that caste by birth.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact.

Jayādvaita: No.

Prabhupāda: The qualification.

Garden Discussion on Bhagavad-gita Sixteenth Chapter -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "In this Sixteenth Chapter the Lord explains both the transcendental nature and its attendant qualities as well as the demoniac nature and its qualities. He also explains the advantages and disadvantages of these qualities. The word abhijātasya in reference to one born of transcendental qualities or godly tendencies is very significant. To beget a child in a godly atmosphere is known in the Vedic scriptures as garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. If the parents want a child in the godly qualities they should follow the ten principles of the human being. In Bhagavad-gītā we have studied also before that sex life for begetting a good child is Kṛṣṇa Himself. Sex life is not condemned provided the process is used in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness at least should not beget children like cats and dogs but should beget them so they may become Kṛṣṇa conscious after birth. That should be the advantage of children born of a mother or father absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The social institution known as varṇāśrama dharma, the institution dividing society into four divisions or castes, is not meant to divide human society according to birth. Such divisions are in terms of educational qualifications. They are to keep the society in a state of peace and prosperity. The qualities mentioned herein are explained as transcendental qualities meant for making a person progress in spiritual understanding so he can get liberated from the material world."

Prabhupāda: So where is that institution to train people to acquire these transcendental qualities? There is no such institution. We are attempting to qualify the man in transcendental qualities. This is the only institution. Otherwise, where it is? I don't think, throughout the whole world, there is any institution to train the students in transcendental qualities. Who cares for transcendental qualities? Go on.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "In the varṇāśrama institution the sannyāsī, or the person in the renounced order of life, is considered to be the head or the spiritual master of all the social statuses and orders. A brāhmaṇa is considered to be the spiritual master of the three other sections of society, namely the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. But a sannyāsī, who is on the top of the institution, is considered to be the spiritual master of the brāhmaṇas also. For a sannyāsī the first qualification should be fearlessness. Because a sannyāsī has to be alone without any support or guarantee of support, he has simply to depend on the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he thinks 'After leaving my connections, who will protect me?' he should not accept the renounced order of life. One must be fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His localized aspect as Paramātmā, is always within, and He is seeing everything, and that He always knows what one intends to do. One must have this firm conviction that Kṛṣṇa as Paramātmā will take care of a soul surrendered unto Him. 'I shall never be alone,' one should think..."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Don't divert your attention.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: But it cannot be done. This is another foolishness. Because Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). But the difficulty is the caste system is coming on account of false notion that a brāhmaṇa is the son of a brāhmaṇa. That is caste system. But Kṛṣṇa does not say. He says, "By quality and work." He never says, "By birth." So this so-called castism in India that is a false notion of cātur-varṇyaṁ. Real cātur-varṇyaṁ means guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. One must be qualified. And how one is qualified? That is also described. Satya śamo damo titikṣva ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. So there must be education. It is not that to abolish the caste system which is contaminated by false conception, or birth right conception. This wrong caste system should be abolished and training centers should be opened how to train a person to become brāhmaṇa or to become kṣatriya. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. So you cannot avoid it, but because you have misconceived the caste system, that should be abolished, and the system recommended by Kṛṣṇa, that should be taken. Otherwise you cannot avoid it. Caste system will remain. Just like truthfulness. So all over the world you'll find somebody who is truthful. Why do you take it: "His father was truthful, therefore he is truthful."? This is nonsense. This is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa never said that. The father may be Hiranyakasipu, but his son is Prahlāda. Or a son... Not that the, one has to become exactly like the father. It may be. There is every possibility, but it is not a fact that the son becomes like the father. It is not fact. So similarly, the first class man is truthful. Now, wherever you find a truthful man, you classify him as brāhmaṇa. That is wanted. Why do you take that "Here is a son of truthful man; therefore he is brāhmaṇa"? That is misconception. You have to pick up the truthful men all over the world and classify them as brāhmaṇa. That we are doing. "If you follow these principles, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating, you are brāhmaṇa. Come on." His father may be meat-eater or gambler or drunkard, but he is agreeing, "All right, come on, this come. You are welcome." Then it will be all right. You cannot abolish the truthful class of men. There are... You'll find truthful men everywhere. So you have to pick up. So Kṛṣṇa says that, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā, guṇa-karma... You pick up the quality of men and put them in the brahminical class, and then next, kṣatriya class, then vaiśya class, then śūdra class. But you cannot abolish that system. That is a false attempt. Because more or less, there will be a class of men who are truthful. You cannot abolish. More or less, there will be a class of men who are sinful. So as soon as you want to pick up from a family, then it is mistake, miscalculated. That caste system should be abolished. But real classification... Not caste. It is classification. Intelligent class of men, or truthful class of men, the fighter class of men, that will continue all over the world. You cannot abolish it. Even if you abolish caste system in India, you cannot abolish the class of truthful men. That is not possible. In spite of so much degradation, a class of men will remain truthful, a class of men will remain sinful. More or less. You cannot abolish this. So this is false attempt. And this caste system is also false. It is not based on the right description of caste system.

Room Conversation -- July 2, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like being dead almost.

Prabhupāda: No fighting spirit. Ṭhākura dekhiya (indistinct). Just make a Deity, show. Our Tīrtha Mahārāja is doing that. His whole idea was, that "I have now captured the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu by high-court favor. Now I have got everything. People will come and they'll pay something, and that will be my income for my family." As the caste gosvāmīs do in Navadvīpa and other... A means of livelihood. He has no devotion. He wanted as a means of income. Like the Vṛndāvana gosvāmīs, Navadvīpa gosvāmīs do. Little devotion, automatically, there is. They are, after all, worshiping the Deity. But their purpose is different. Just like we have established Rādhā-Vṛndāvanacandra not that people will come and pay something. Who will come here, in this foreign country or in this secluded place? So our aim is to make the devotees real devotees. Not for earning money. When we establish a center in a place like this, where is the idea of getting money? (laughs) Who will come here? One, it is a foreign country, nobody knows what is Kṛṣṇa. And one has to come with so great difficulty, on the mountain. And who is coming to pay for it? After spending so much money, they will come here to pay? Our process is that wherever we stay, we worship Kṛṣṇa. As far as possible. That we are doing. Not for earning money but spending money. Now Tīrtha Mahārāja is seeing that without getting Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthsite, Swami Mahārāja, he is attracting lakhs of people. Without the favor of high-court, he is attracting. That is his envy. This year, you were not present?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At Māyāpur?

Prabhupāda: Oh, you were present?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. There was always...

Hari-śauri: That leaflet that he put out that we saw, he put one leaflet advertising that...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Apart from that leaflet... Let him do whatever nonsense... But actually, on the birthday of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, there was the greatest crowd in our temple.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: We do not speak of Western world or Eastern world, we speak for all world. What we are speaking, that is for all world, not Western or Eastern. There is no such thing in the teachings of Kṛṣṇa. He never says that it is meant for the Eastern or Western. He says sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ (BG 14.4). For everyone.

Guest (4): Your Grace, how is it that the devotees who run the great temple of Jagannātha refuse to allow foreigners and certain low-caste people, when this was the favorite place of Lord Caitanya, who, like you say, advocated that it should be taught in every town and village?

Prabhupāda: Jagannātha Purī?

Guest (4): Are these administrators fallen?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking why can't your disciples from the West in particular, who are low-class particular people, like the Mohammedans, as traditional, they are not allowed in the Jagannātha Purī temple.

Prabhupāda: That is their fault. They should not have done so. That is their, what is called? Sectarian prejudice.

Evening Darsana -- July 11, 1976, New York:

Indian man (6): Another question comes. Why, how the caste system has crippled our society so much, was accepted by...

Prabhupāda: Wrongly, wrongly. Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So according to quality and work... That is fact. If you have got engineering qualification and if you can work as engineer, people will call you engineer-sāheb. Is it not? So there may be a class of engineer, but that depends on quality and work. But if you have no quality, no work, how you become engineer? If you have no qualification of becoming an engineer, and you do not work, you work as a clerk, and if somebody addresses you "Engineer-sāheb," he is a fool, you are a fool. (laughter) So if he's not a brāhmaṇa, if you call him a brāhmaṇa, then you are fool and he is also fool. So that is going on, fools' paradise. A rascal who is not in qualification a brāhmaṇa, if he's addressed and given honor of a brāhmaṇa, he's sees, "Oh, for nothing I am getting this honor, that's right, very nice." And who is giving him honor as brāhmaṇa, he's also rascal. But it is not that. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. One must acquire the quality of a brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation -- August 2, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Dravidian culture. Dravida. They are non-Āryans. Just like these Africans, they are not Āryans. Now they are mixing up with Europeans and Americans. In India, it was, one from the higher section, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they will be fair complexion. Śūdras, black. So if a brāhmaṇa becomes black, then he's not accepted as brāhmaṇa. Kāla bahu (?). And if a śūdra becomes fair, then he's to be know that he's not pure śūdra. Although we do not take very, but, this brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, by birth, but still, we have seen, those who are coming purely from high caste family, their behavior and śūdras behavior is different. The family culture. And the spiritual culture lost, still, the family culture keeps them separate.

Morning Walk -- August 14, 1976, Bombay:

Acyutānanda: You've got new japa beads, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. From tulasī. It was made in Honolulu. In Honolulu tulasī plants are very luxurious. Hyderabad local people, they are not sympathetic with our temple? Huh? Not sympathetic?

Acyutānanda: But when their caste guru comes they may come out, because that's a big thing. Narayana Jeer, Rāmānuja-sampradāya, so Rāmānujas have to pay their respects to their own ācārya. The temple is being built. And the location of Hyderabad is such that there are so many guesthouses, because it's near the station, Nampally Station. There are many guesthouses. So from all over India people who stop in Hyderabad, they come to the temple. So from all over Andhra we got invitations from people who had come to the temple. (plane going over)

Prabhupāda: Guesthouse?

Acyutānanda: There's the Vṛndāvana Hotel, and that Ashoka?

Vāsughoṣa: Annapurna...

Acyutānanda: Annapurna Hotel, so many guesthouses.

Prabhupāda: They visit our temple?

Vāsughoṣa: All those brāhmaṇas that came for the yajña, and everybody, after the yajña ended at about six-thirty, they immediately came to the temple, our temple, afterwards. Everybody knew. We distributed thousands of books there. It was very good book distribution. We sold in one day, you know, we were selling two thousand rupees a day worth of books. Everybody that came there was very pious.

Prabhupāda: We took advantage.

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Indian (1): Yes, varṇāśrama, I wanted to, Swamiji...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head—brāhmaṇa; the arms—kṣatriya; the belly—vaiśya; and the leg—śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there. Brāhmaṇa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required—military department or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam(?). The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department. You have introduced, this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there. So this varṇāśrama, revival of varṇāśrama is required. A class of men, brāhmaṇa—sattva śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). As there are different educational system, there must be an educational institute where these things are taught: how to become truthful, how to become self-controlled, how to become full in knowledge, how to become full believer in the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Āstikyam. In this way, as there is necessity of engineer, as there is necessity of medical man, as there is necessity of so many other departmental chiefs, similarly, a department of brāhmaṇa, a department of kṣatriya—that education must be given. But in this age, because nobody is interested, so everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Everyone, all over the world, they are being educated to seek after some good service. Paricarya: he must have a good master; then his education will be... He cannot act independently. So therefore in the śāstra it is said that everyone is anxious to get a good job, therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ, in this age almost everyone is śūdra. So if śūdras are there only, if there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, that society will not prosper very much. If we accept the injunction of the śāstra, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma (BG 16.23). So this brāhmaṇa, or kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is not by birth. It is by qualification. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa. One must acquire the quality of brāhmaṇa and he must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then he is brāhmaṇa. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Even in śūdra family, if one is born śūdra, but he has attained the quality of a brāhmaṇa, he must be accepted as brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra injunction.

yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ
puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam
yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta
tat tenaiva vinirdiśet
(SB 7.11.35)

Yad anyatra. If the quality of brāhmaṇa is found in a person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly, if the quality of brāhmaṇa is found in śūdra or the śūdra quality found in brāhmaṇa, I mean to say birth, by caste, as it is going on now, so Nārada Muni has said... This is the statement of Nārada Muni, the greatest authority. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). So birth is not the final thing. If one is born in a brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family, he has got the facility to become quickly a brāhmaṇa; but if he has no quality, if he does not practice, then he is not to be accepted as brāhmaṇa. You may be a son of a high-court judge, but unless you have got the quality of high-court judge, it is not that because you are born of high-court judge you become a high-court judge. That is not, that is not the quality. The quality is... So therefore I say that there must be educational institution for training brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya especially. And vaiśyas, they do not require any academical area. Kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (Bg 18.44). They can learn simply by associating with another vaiśya. But brāhmaṇa, especially require education, Vedic literature. Paṭhana-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ. Kṣatriya also requires education. Others, they may not require education. Practical training. These things should be introduced. Then human society will be perfect. Not by birth, but by quality, by education, by training. But that is possible.

Press Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh:

Interviewer: Would that mean that you support the ancient caste system?

Prabhupāda: Huh? It is not caste system. It is division of labor. It is not caste system. A class of men must be intelligent, a class of men must be strong to give protection. And a class of men must be to produce food, and a class of men, general worker. It is not caste system. Bhagavad-gītā never says caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and work. You have made it caste system. You have no qualification of a brāhmaṇa, you are calling, "I am brāhmaṇa." That is caste system. But if you have got the quality of a brāhmaṇa and you work as a brāhmaṇa, that is necessary. That is necessary. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ.

Room Conversation About Gurukula -- November 5, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: And originally they are śūdras. The history of Bengali kāyasthas... They went with the brāhmaṇas as servant. That is the history. And in Bengal the system is... (Bengali saying and Hindi explanation) Actually it is... If some low class man, he becomes rich, then he's taken into the kāyastha community. Anyone who cannot stick to the principle of caste system, he becomes a kāyastha.

Bhagatji: Varṇa-saṅkara.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) Some of them are kṣatriyas and some of them... Like that. But that is not essential. That is all gone. Now, if one cannot take education, he can be used in farm work, a little hard work.

Jagadīśa: (name withheld) is another problem.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jagadīśa: (name withheld), (name withheld)'s boy. He is only eight, but he is becoming like a street boy.

Prabhupāda: So let him go to farm working. Farm working is for suitable...

Bhagatji: He likes that. He'll play with cows. He likes dung.

Room Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper -- November 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Everything will be solved.

Dr. Kneupper: But you were describing the caste system or the...

Prabhupāda: This is not caste system. It is natural. There is always an intelligent class of men in the society. So they should be, what is called, listed. They should be trained up properly.

Dr. Kneupper: How do you envision...? Would you envision...?

Prabhupāda: Just like you are a philosopher. So you should not make only theories, "perhaps." But actually, by your philosophy, you establish the existence of God. Then you are philosopher. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya... (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse in the Bhāgavata. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka. If by your philosophical knowledge you prove, "Yes, there is God," then your philosophy study is perfect. And if you philosophize, "There is no God," that is useless waste of time. To gain popularity, if you make philosophy like... In your country there are so many rascals philosophers, Darwin, Freud. They are all rascals. They are predominant.

Morning Walk -- December 5, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Te hitam. So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man—"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals-eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, utmost, śūdra, like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping, and sex, and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong then, "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brāhmaṇa, then śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). If you want to be kṣatriya, tejaḥ... What is that? Tejaḥ śauryaṁ yujyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam. If you want to be a vaiśya, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And if you want to remain a śūdra, paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself, either as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyataṁ karma tvam. Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma. That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time, a single moment. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. So make that. Don't waste your time. That's all right. And she is child.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Discussion about Kumbhamela -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Gurudāsa: Well, it is due to our budget.

Prabhupāda: No, budget not. The puri-śāk is pakkā, and puṣpanna is kacchā. They think like that. That kacchā, there is distinction of jata. One jata, one caste, will not take other caste anna. That is Indian thinking. But puri-śāk, everyone.

Gurudāsa: But also everyone was serving...

Prabhupāda: Puri-śāk will be cheaper, I think.

Gurudāsa: Whatever you like. They said...

Prabhupāda: I don't like, but if you distribute, must be acceptable to everyone.

Gurudāsa: Everyone is serving, that is serving, capati and dahl.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Gurudāsa: But everyone is serving that already. That's another reason I thought that puṣpanna would be nice because it would be unique.

Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection. That is all right. But puri-śāk is better. Is it costly?

Gurudāsa: More costly, yes. And I told him to make a list for you to see, if you need it, why it's more costly. At any rate, he says... The cook has done research, our man, and says puri-śāk would be more costly.

Prabhupāda: But don't allow him to purchase.

Evening Darsana -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas were so learned at that time. Therefore brāhmaṇas were addressed as Pandita. Panditaji. Still they're addressed. Brāhmaṇas were addressed as Pandita, kṣatriyas were addressed as Thakura, vaiśyas were addressed as Mahājana, and śūdras were addressed as Chaudhuri. Yes, still. In northern India this is the etiquette.

Guest (1): But, sir, now these things are so complicated only the title indicates the caste.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Nowadays it is topsy-turvied. There is no system, Kali-yuga.

Guest (2): Today somebody is a brāhmaṇa, tomorrow's he's kṣatriya, and day after tomorrow he's something else.

Prabhupāda: Udaraṁ bharatā. Dakṣyaṁ udaraṁ bhāratā. Bas, Kali-yuga. Somehow or other, if you can fill up your bellies, then you are very expert. That is going on. If you can maintain your family nicely, then you are dakṣya. Dakṣyaṁ udaraṁ bhāratā. These symptoms are there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Because the Kali-yuga, it is so condemned that it will be difficult to maintain one's body and soul together, that udaraṁ bharita is very expert. He's maintaining. (laughs) Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā (SB 1.1.10). All unfortunate, they have no certainty. In Western countries they have voluntarily given up regulative life, the hippies. No certainty where he shall eat, where he shall lie down. Voluntarily. Coming of very nice family. In Europe, America.... Especially in America there is no question of becoming poor. Everyone has got sufficient means. But still, voluntarily they have accepted this poverty. Voluntarily. A father is rich man. Grandfather is rich man. And besides that, the government maintains. If you have no engagement, the government will give you at least $25 per week. Is it not?

Room Conversation about Harijanas -- April 10, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Jana means person. Hari means the Lord. A government man. Hari's man. Like Nārada.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nārada Muni is a harijana.

Prabhupāda: Yes. All devotees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. He is well known. (break) (reading:) "The only remedy lies in the ending of their subservience to the higher castes and securing for them economic independence. But according to the Bhāgavatam, a śūdra can never be given economic independence. If they want economic independence, they should elevate themselves to the higher castes."

Prabhupāda: It will not become higher caste. They do not know. Economic independence, who is checking now? There is no such check all over the world. Just like in Bombay. Everyone can do business. So why they cannot do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they are not intelligent enough.

Prabhupāda: That means they have no intelligence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means they are śūdra. And if someone is a śūdra, how can you let him have his own money?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, everything requires intelligence. If you haven't got that standard of intelligence, how you can do it? Nowadays, suppose if you do some business, is there a hindrance that "You are low class, you cannot do this business." Neither the government nor the society. You can do it. Why you cannot do it? Just like in Bengal, the Marwaris are rich and Bengalis are... Their land, their country, and their naturals. And the Marwaris have big (indistinct). It is your incapability. Why don't you admit that?

Room Conversation about Harijanas -- April 10, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. If they are in a downtrodden condition, it's due to their past activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you can rectify it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right, it can be reversed.

Prabhupāda: It is not that you shall remain... Then, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). If you accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even you are born in low-grade caste or family, you can be elevated. That is to be done. What is done is done. Now we can elevate from this position. That is our capacity.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (reading) "There are no authentic answers to these questions."

Prabhupāda: There is. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Read Bhagavad-gītā. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Here is authentic answer. Why he's giving that...? That means you are not in proper leadership. If you... Just explain that if you infect cholera disease, germ, you must suffer. That is nature's law. Similarly, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. Now you can change the kāraṇa, the cause. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). And you can neutralize it. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ. Quote this. Everything is there in Bhagavad-gītā.

Room Conversation about Harijanas -- April 10, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That we can teach.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said, "The surest way for our salvation lies in higher education."

Prabhupāda: So who forbids? Is there any restriction that... (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "Here are some measures to be implemented. The caste system should be abolished." They are always trying to abolish the caste system.

Prabhupāda: The caste system... Where is the hindrance in the caste system? If you want to become a brāhmaṇa, you can become a brāhmaṇa. Why it should be abolished?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Incorrect understanding of it should be abolished.

Prabhupāda: "This is the definition of becoming a brāhmaṇa." Give this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śamaḥ damaḥ kṣamā śaucam.

Prabhupāda: So you have to learn it. How you can become a brāhmaṇa?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like if a man has a disease, just by saying he doesn't have the disease, you can't change the fact that he is diseased. If someone is actually in a certain position, you can't... The way to change it is by actually changing him, not by simply saying, "Now you're okay."

Prabhupāda: These are the symptoms of becoming a brāhmaṇa. You develop these symptoms. Who checks you? Practically we are doing all over the world. There is no such thing.

Room Conversation about Harijanas -- April 10, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: These are the symptoms of becoming a brāhmaṇa. You develop these symptoms. Who checks you? Practically we are doing all over the world. There is no such thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All the measures...

Prabhupāda: Caste system should not be abolished, but it must be properly established. That is wanted. If you have got any defect in the eye, not that the eye should be plucked out. But it should be treated and brought into the normal condition. That is wanted. That we admit. You want to become brāhmaṇa without brahminical qualification. Not only you, everyone wants.

Bhakti-caru: You told Professor Kotovsky that this caste system is existing everywhere, in every society in the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. In the body there is caste system. The head is the brāhmaṇa, the hand is the kṣatriya, the belly is the vaiśya and the leg is the śūdra. Everything head, that will not help. There must be leg also. But it must be conducted under the guidance of the head. Then it is all right. If the head is not there and leg is utilized for jumping, that is monkey's business. The leg must work according to the dictation of the head. The hand must work according to the dictation of the head. "The caste system should be abolished." What is the caste system? There is no caste system. Everyone is śūdra. Who is a brāhmaṇa now, qualified, except one or two in our camp?

Room Conversation with Ram Jethmalani (Parliament Member) -- April 16, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Anyone, anyone. You see. My all disciples, they are coming. Christian, Jewish, Muslim, every kind. Mostly they are my disciples.

Ram Jethmalani: Have Muslims taken to this movement?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many. One professor, Dr. Amja,(?) he is my disciple, I gave him name Rāma-rañjana. They are Muslim. It is philosophy, science. It is not meant for a particular caste or creed or nation. No. Rather, to accept this creed or accept this process, one is required first to give up this designation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). That is nirmala. So long we are covered by this material body, we are not nirmala; we are polluted. So one has to give up this designation, bodily concept of life. Tanu-māninā. These words are given. Tanu-māninā. So long one is continuing in the bodily concept of life, it is sinful life, in comparison. This we have to give up, in order to come to the transcendental position. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam. Nirmala (CC Madhya 19.170).

Conversation: Bogus Gurus -- April 25, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is going on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This man, he has a book now of these..., this man from Purī, Jagannātha Purī. He has a... He collects letters from each one of them, and he keeps them in a book, and he shows...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that "They have given me..."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many disciples.

Prabhupāda: The Vṛndāvana also they do. These things are there, their business. And they smoke gāñ..., opium, gāñjā. Pān they are chewing, fish. "Tīrtha-guru." In Vṛndāvana the jāta-guru, caste gosvāmī, they do like that. He'll not touch his water even, and still, he is disciple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but that... This is such a contradiction, that the man gives someone, makes someone his disciple, but he will not take him.

Prabhupāda: He'll not take his food, he'll not touch his water, and still, he's guru. That's all. In Vṛndāvana it is going on, large... So many visitors come. They are victimized. They have got their step, in that way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, right. The devotees should understand also that any money that's given to these persons, the Deity will never see this money.

Prabhupāda: Cheating is going on. You have to be careful. Otherwise very risky. Vipralipsa. One of the qualification of conditioned souls is to cheat others and be cheated. Vañchita vañchaka. Business cheat... (end)

Room Conversation with Alice Coltrane -- July 1, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So why did you need? That means you do not read.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I didn't spell yaḥ properly. I spelled it y-a.

yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya
vartate kāma-kārataḥ
na sa siddhim avāpnoti
na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim
(BG 16.23)

Translation: "But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection nor happiness nor the supreme destination." Purport: "As described before, the śāstra-vidhim, or the direction of the śāstra, is given to the different castes and orders of human society. Everyone is expected to follow these rules and regulations. If one does not follow them and acts whimsically according to his lust, greed and desire, then he never will be perfect in his life. In other words, a man may theoretically know all these things, but if he does not apply them in his own life, then he is to be known as the lowest of mankind. In the human form of life, a living entity is expected to be sane and to follow the regulations given for elevating his life to the highest platform, but if he does not follow them, then he degrades himself. But even if he follows the rules and regulations and moral principles and ultimately does not come to the stage of understanding the Supreme Lord, then all his knowledge becomes spoiled. Therefore one should gradually raise himself to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service; it is then and there that he can attain the highest perfectional stage, not otherwise.

The word kāma-cārataḥ is very significant. A person who knowingly violates the rules acts in lust. He knows that this is forbidden, still he acts. This is called acting whimsically. He knows that this should be done, but still he does not do it; therefore he is called whimsical. Such persons are destined to be condemned by the Supreme Lord. Such persons cannot have the perfection which is meant for the human life. The human life is especially meant for purifying one's existence, and one who does not follow the rules and regulations cannot purify himself, nor can he attain the real stage of happiness".

Prabhupāda: So you do that. Read carefully and execute that. Then you'll be perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you have any questions?

Alice Coltrane: (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She's been invited to chant at Ratha-yātrā because there are so many followers of hers throughout the country, so she wonders if there's anything, any special instruction you have.

Prabhupāda: No, if you go. If your batches(?) chant and dance, that is all right.

Room Conversation-Recent Mail -- July 14, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Everyone is recommending. All libraries.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: " '...should have on its shelf these works.' " Next is a letter from Trinvak Govind Meinpark(?), Professor of Sanskrit and Head of the Department at the University of Bombay. " 'His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the renowned Vedic scholar and founder-ācārya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, has translated into English the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Caitanya-caritāmṛta, the Encyclopedia of Vedic Culture.' " Now it's getting to be known like that. " 'The special feature of this publication is to be seen in the explanatory notes, added with a view to summing up the purport of the passages rendered. The Bhāgavatam is a classic of the Kṛṣṇa cult, and in the manner of sweetness, sincerity of devotion and purity of emotion, it surpasses all other texts of the Purāṇas, as well as other texts of the Bhāgavata religion. As such it is no wonder that it has become a veritable scripture of the devotees of this cult. Again, of all incarnations of the highest Lord, the Kṛṣṇa incarnation has a peculiar fascination for the Indian mind and has all along exercised a great influence over the Hindu religious mind—in fact, of all minds that have God consciousness. The Lord's grace, His interest and deep concern for His devotees and even for sinners, His great love for all beings without any distinction of order, caste, creed, and sex, His ever-willingness to look after all ardent devotees, His extreme sweetness, all these qualities have made Him the most easily lovable of the divine manifestations. The text of the Bhāgavata, scenes of the whole life of the Lord from His childhood to His withdrawal from the world, yet the philosophical aspects receive greater emphasis than the historical ones.' " Not simply that it's some stories, but full of philosophy. " 'Along with the Bhāgavata, the Caitanya-caritāmṛta has received as much care and attention in the translation by Śrīla Prabhupāda. The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust is presenting these two sets as an encyclopedia of our culture, and our university has made a standing order of these volumes, which our students delight in reading. There is no doubt that the Swamiji has immensely obliged all lovers of our Vedic culture and devotees of Kṛṣṇa cult by this simple, clear, faithful, and illuminating rendering into English. The notes bring out beautifully the subtle implications of the Sanskrit and Bengali text. The lay reader is thus greatly helped in appreciating and understanding the brilliant simplicity of the path of bhakti.' "

Prabhupāda: What he is?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is the Head of the Department of Sanskrit at the Bombay University. " 'The printing is really excellent and the general get-up highly attractive. I have nothing but the highest praise for this splendid publication. The BBT's encyclopedia would be a valuable asset to each school and college library as well as all general libraries throughout the world.' " These reviews are as good as your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Room Conversation-Recent Mail -- July 14, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're tremendous. Here is a letter from the member of the advisory board of the Sāhitya Academy. You know what that is Śrīla Prabhupāda? Sāhitya Academy? I think it's a literary academy. " 'No earthly writer today can match the vast outpouring of pure verse which our ancient sages, particularly the great Vyāsadeva, have left to the world. Motivated by a deep desire to give moral, cultural, and educational upliftment to all people irrespective of caste, creed or nationality, they have taught us the higher values of life through the medium of historical narrations, biographies, the lives of great men, and simple instructive stories. The unlimited wealth which they have left behind in the Devanāgarī script is sheer ecstasy to read for the poet, the student and the common man. Since dialectic differences began to splinter men into smaller groups, the original language, Sanskrit, was gradually forgotten. It is special grace upon the denizens of this world today that His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has done such a tremendous job of meticulously translating into so many languages the sacred books of our heritage. Swamiji's most noteworthy achievement is his Encyclopedia of Vedic Education, the multivolume presentation of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Caitanya-caritāmṛta.' " One thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this calling it the Encyclopedia of Vedic..., as he's doing...Everyone has always known the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, but fewer people knew Caitanya-caritāmṛta, and now these two are lumped together as equally very important works.

Prabhupāda: Complete.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very much increased...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Room Conversation Varnasrama -- July 14, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: ...actually what benefit to the human society? But technology, or high technology. Just like Indian technology.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't see any benefit. I see that they only get trouble.

Prabhupāda: In India the caste system was very good. From the very beginning the children would learn the technology of their paternal. Just like potter. You'll see the children of the potter, they are also making a small bird, a small fruit, and they would be sold. A small playing utensils-small glass, small plate—they're also sold. Other children would purchase. The whole family used to earn something. Nowadays they're sent to school, wasting time, and then unemployment and idle brain. What is the use of sending a potter's son to school?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, everything he needs to know, he can learn at home.

Prabhupāda: That's what I... Similarly, weaver, that cloth weaving, "kat, kat." The wife is spinning, her husband is weaving, the children is weaving, and combinedly at the end of the day there is a cloth. And people were satisfied with simple necessities. They would not charge very much for the labor. And one nice cloth requires half a pound cotton. Half a pound cotton means maybe one rupee. Another one rupee for the labor. So now they are paying twenty to thirty rupees. Unnecessarily he has to earn this money and pay to the millionaires, and he will keep three dozen motorcars, so another man will be engaged in motorcar industry. In this way time is being wasted without any search after spiritual realization. Time is wasted in such so-called technology advancement. And the real purpose of life, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā, that is missing. And when you present that "This is the most important business of life," they say, "It is brainwashing."

Room Conversation -- October 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Dr. Gopal: Yes, of course, I am Vaiṣṇava, but not by initiation.

Prabhupāda: No, your family belongs to which Vaiṣṇava sampradāya? There are four sampradāya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There are four sampradāyas: Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī...

Dr. Gopal: I don't know myself, because I know only this much, that I am a man and a Hindu, that's all, bāniyā by caste, by born in their family. Profession, my serve you.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is your family originally from? Which area of the country?

Dr. Gopal: Mostly belongs to district Mathurā itself, in Bles(?) near Mathurā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For many centuries? Do you know?

Dr. Gopal: No, my father migrated from this place to district Agra, Siroabad(?), in 1945.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Before that time?

Dr. Gopal: Before that, I was hardly two years old.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your forefathers were from any part of India besides this?

Dr. Gopal: No. They're always from this UP.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ācchā. (break)

Bhavānanda: ...in Vṛndāvana. That perhaps he could stop there and just inquire whether they had any kavirāja there, because that's Rāmānuja-sampradāya. Shall he do that? (break)

Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? No. This doctor's treatment is failure.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's starting to guess.

Prabhupāda: Now... Where is Bhakti?

Bhavānanda: Bhakti-caru is just waiting to go and get the kavirāja in the front. Do you want me to bring him?

Prabhupāda: Call him.

Page Title:Caste (Conversations)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, Mayapur
Created:18 of Feb, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=92, Let=0
No. of Quotes:92