Prabhupāda: Evolution of matter. Matter cannot evolve. That is not possible.
Dr. Hauser: But evolution of life...
Prabhupāda: What is that life? That is different from matter. That is a different energy. That I am speaking. Matter is... Life is the origin of matter. The evolution is not of the matter, but of the life. That Darwin does not know. Therefore I say nonsense. He does not know that.
Dr. Hauser: Yes. But I feel in the...
Prabhupāda: Just like this is an apartment. So from this apartment, you go to another apartment. So it does not mean that this apartment has evolved to that apartment. I, the person, I create that apartment, or I prefer that apartment. Not that this apartment has evolved into that apartment.
Dr. Hauser: Yes, I can see what you mean. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Darwin's nonsense is there. He is changing the apartment. Apartment is becoming a different apartment. That is not a fact. Just try to understand. This room cannot develop into another room. But I, the resident of this room, I can go from this apartment to another apartment. Or I can create another apartment. This is evolution.
Dr. Hauser: And I can create a bigger apartment.
Prabhupāda: Yes, bigger, smaller, as I like. Not necessarily bigger. That is also another nonsense.
Dr. Hauser: And my intelligence might grow also.
Prabhupāda: Intelligence, maybe. But there must be means. You may be very intelligent, but if you have no means to erect another nice apartment, how it will?
Dr. Hauser: Trial and error.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Hauser: Trial and error.
Prabhupāda: Just like you have got the desire to purchase another dress, garment, nicer, but if you have no money, then how you can purchase? You have to purchase something inferior. So these different species of life is the evolution of the living soul according to his karma. That is Vedic instruction. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). So I am a living entity. If I want to go to better condition of life, then I'll have to pay for it. Better condition is there already. Not this inferior condition changes into that better condition. That is another thing. Just like the condition in moon planet is different from the condition of this earthly planet. That is already there. You have to transfer yourself from this planet to that planet. So that point is missing in Darwin's theory. He says that body is evolving. That is nonsense. The body is evolving, then why the monkey body is not producing a human body at the present moment? Where is the evidence? The monkeys are already there. Where is the evidence in the zoo that a monkey has produced a human being? Do you think it is all right?
Dr. Hauser: Yes, that, that life might have taken different forms, that I'm quite sure of. And that the human being might not have existed for about a hundred thousand years ago.
Prabhupāda: No human beings exists eternal. He's existing. But he accepting, he's accepting different situation.
Paramahaṁsa: There's proof of this in that recently there was a discovery in South America. I think it was in Kenya. Where they discovered a skeletal remains that were over hundreds of thousands of years old that was pre, what is it? Mag... What is it?
Haṁsadūta: Cro-magnon.
Paramahaṁsa: Cro-magnon, and it was the same human body as now, as we have now. They have discovered. And with this discovery, they say, completely all of Darwin's theories have been destroyed. This is a fact. Immediately see. He overlooked. He says: "I do not see any proof that human beings lived, millions of years ago. Therefore I think apes were existing." But what proof does he have? And how they have discovered bones and they have proven by tests that Cro-magnon era there was the same human body. It's a fact. And completely his, all his theories have been destroyed. Because he again, he was working with his illusory senses.
Dr. Hauser: Hmm. But there are the dinosaurs for example. The dinosaurs, yes. Which died and disappeared from the earth. And that is also a kind of evolution that has taken place.
Haṁsadūta: He says there are these prehistoric animals like dinosaurs, these big, gigantic animals, they are no longer existing now, but they existed at one time. So there, there was some evolution there.
Dr. Hauser: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: But the point is Vedic, Vedic conclusion is...
Prabhupāda: No, but, apart from Vedic conclusion, this example, that practically, when I go from this apartment to another apartment, so this apartment does not become another apartment. I go from this apartment to another apartment. He's missing that "I". Or "you". That is his nonsense.
Dr. Hauser: He's only talking about apartments.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his rascaldom.
Dr. Hauser: Yes, I can see what you mean.
Prabhupāda: He does not know. The apartment does not change. The owner of the apartment goes from one apartment to another. That he does not know. Therefore he's cheating. He does not, he has no perfect knowledge, and he's cheating. Cheater. He does not know. The soul, from the monkey's body is coming to human body. That is nice. Not that the monkey's body is changing into human body.
Dr. Hauser: But some of this cheating, as you call it, must have, have still been a great use to mankind because it has not been proven at the time when this theory has been evoked by some scientist, it has not been proven that he's right, but he works according to this principle that he has got, and then later...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is explained in Bhāgavatam that in the jungle one big animal is the leader of other animals. That's all. But they're animals. Is it not?
Dr. Hauser: But I don't really understand.
Prabhupāda: In the jungle, in the forest,...
Dr. Hauser: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...the lion is considered to be the king of animals. So lion is also animal, only big animal. That's all.
Dr. Hauser: So you mean the scientist is a big lion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. A big rascal. That's it. A big rascal. A big rascal is eulogized by small rascals. That's all.
Dr. Hauser: Seducing a small rascal.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Hauser: Seducing a small rascal.
Prabhupāda: Another small rascal. This is the position. Everything is going on like that. Not only in science, philosophy, religion, sociology, politics. The, a big rascal and small rascal. That's all.
Dr. Hauser: But you must evoke quite a lot of feelings when you say, for example, that Einstein was a very big rascal.
Prabhupāda: No. He believed in God. Yes. He believed in God. He was not a rascal. A sane man.
Paramahaṁsa: Carl Jung also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He believed in God.
Dr. Hauser: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He tried to find out the brain of God. So he's not rascal. He's sane man. Those who are defying God, they're rascal, demons. Einstein believed in God. Yes. There are many scientists, they believe in God. Harāv abhaktasya kuto... Unless one is God conscious, he's a rascal. Immediately, take it. We take it like that. As soon as you say godless, atheist, oh, a rascal. That's all. It may be the understanding of God is not so perfect. But he thinks there is God. That is intelligence. That is intelligence. And the demons will never accept God. Just like in Russia. All set of rascals. They do not believe in God.
