Dhṛṣṭaketu: I put myself in this condition of illusion so that I can enjoy being liberated.
Prabhupāda: And so you put yourself to be kicked by me and enjoy. Just test what is the enjoyment of being kicked.
Dhanañjaya: But without pain how can you experience pleasure?
Prabhupāda: You get this experience, how it is pleasure? I kick and you enjoy?
Dhṛṣṭaketu: The idea is that after experiencing the suffering of this material world then liberation will be very...
Prabhupāda: Why there is suffering, material? You are supreme; why it is suffering for you?
Dhṛṣṭaketu: Well, so that when I...
Prabhupāda: So, there is no "so that." Why you are suffering?
Brahmānanda: It's suffering only for those...
Prabhupāda: If it is your līlā, then you are suffering. What is this nonsense of "my līlā." Suffering?
Brahmānanda: The suffering is only for those who haven't..., who don't understand that they are supreme.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Brahmānanda: Those who don't understand, they are the ones who suffer, but I don't suffer.
Prabhupāda: So it is better to remain in that ignorance. Just like the hogs and dogs, they do not understand that this is suffering. But we can understand that this is suffering.
Brahmānanda: Yes. To be a dog, that's all right because the dog doesn't suffer. He is enjoying.
Prabhupāda: No, no, why you are doing austerity? Remain as dog and cat. Therefore you are mūḍha. You do not know what is suffering, what is enjoyment. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mam ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Therefore one who is intelligent, jñāni, bahūnām jan... After suffering in this way and talking all nonsense, when he comes to the real knowledge, then he surrenders. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān maṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). That is knowledge.
Indian man (1): Kamādinaṁ katīna katidha palita durnideśaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Ah. When he comes to this awareness, that "I have simply suffered and I wanted to maintain myself by jugglery of words," then he comes to the real knowledge.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: So the Māyāvādīs' philosophy is actually the supreme illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has forbidden. Māyāvādī-bhāṣya sunile haya sarva nasa (CC Madhya 6.169). One is finished if he follows the Māyāvāda philosophy. He is doomed. He will never be able to accept the real philosophy. He will be absorbed in that false philosophy. This is Māyāvādī's position. Māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhī. They are aparādhī, offender. Therefore they shall remain perpetually in ignorance and think himself, "I am God." This is Māyāvādī's position. Vivekānanda preached openly that "Why you are thinking that you are sinful? You are God." He preached like that.
Brahmānanda: The Christians, they have a concept of sin. So when Vivekānanda went to America he was telling them, "No, you forget this concept. Whatever you do, it's all right because you are God." They were surprised.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why they liked him.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They did not like. The Christian priests did not like him. They condemned him, "Oh, you are come from India, and you are speaking nonsense, this?" In those hundred years the Christian priests were conscious: "But how is this? From India he has come and he's talking like nonsense?" They questioned in Chicago speech.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: He's just fanning the fires of atheism.
Prabhupāda: Yes.