Krishna Tiwari: Well, I do not believe in the subjugation.
Prabhupāda: That is your madness, because you know.
Krishna Tiwari: No, no. No way, no way you can say that. (laughing)
Prabhupāda: No, no, don't be upset. You said that you are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: I am.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are under subjugation.
Krishna Tiwari: But, but I do not believe these kind of "authority" words.
Prabhupāda: You believe, you believe. When, when the laws of nature will force upon you death, you must believe.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I'm sure I will believe.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that you are not obligation?
Krishna Tiwari: No, but that's not question of authority or anything...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is authority. We mean another...
Krishna Tiwari: ...that's a part of the nature. Difference between...,
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Krishna Tiwari: ...big difference between subjugative authority and being a part of the nature.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Subjugative, when you are forced to become old, when you are forced to become diseased, you are under subjugation.
Krishna Tiwari: Mistake. Not forced. It's automatic, it's, it's just a chain. It's a growth into. It's a factor; it's no force.
Prabhupāda: That automatic means just like you become criminal.
Krishna Tiwari: That, that's the way progress, I'm a part of it. I'm not under or over anybody, and no one is over, under, or above me. You are not under me. You are not over me.
Śyāmasundara: You're under nature's law.
Krishna Tiwari: Right, we all are. You, me, Swamiji, you, all of us are.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly. Exactly.
Krishna Tiwari: Neither you are above me, nor you are below, nor I am above you. I may have respect for you, because I, on my own, believe that you are respectable. That is entirely different thing.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's up to you.
Krishna Tiwari: Then authority. That's what I'm saying. This is up to me. But authority and subjugation are, are the two things which will not come.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's a matter of your choice. Accepting...
Krishna Tiwari: It's a matter of personal choice.
Prabhupāda: If you are not under subjugation, that does not authority?
Krishna Tiwari: I'm no, I'm no, I'm no subjugation to anyone. I'm a part of the nature.
Prabhupāda: How is that you're not...
Krishna Tiwari: If nature moves, I move with it. If the nature makes me old, I get old.
Prabhupāda: You have here subjugation.
Krishna Tiwari: I am no... I'm a part of a... Nature is changing too. Nature is nothing which is, which is static.
Prabhupāda: Nature is not changing.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is changing.
Prabhupāda: Not changing.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, my belief is it's changing, and even Lord Kṛṣṇa says it changes.
Prabhupāda: No.
Krishna Tiwari: I think He does.