Prabhupāda: Fever should decrease. But those who are less intelligent, they think, "Yes, it must increase." (chuckles) There is a drama in Bengali that in a house a doctor came to diagnose. There were two patients, the housewife and the maidservant. So doctor said, "The maidservant's fever is 105, so there is some anxiety. I give some medicine. And the, that landlady, she has no fever practically, 99, so there is no anxiety." But the landlady became angry, that "This doctor is useless. I am the landlady. I have got 99, and my maidservant 105. And maidservant should have 98. I should have 110!" (laughter) This is the mentality. The modern civilization is trying to increase the degree of fever to 110 degrees. And, you know, as soon as the degree comes to 107 it is death. Do you know that? If the fever increases to hundred and... Therefore as soon as the high fever is there, the doctor try to decrease it by icebags and so many things because to come to the fever degree, 107 or 8, means immediate death. So the modern civilization, they are trying to increase the degree of material fever, and they have come to the point, 107 degree-atomic bomb. Now they are going to die. You see? The American atom bomb or the Russian atom bomb will kill the whole material scientists' advancement. You see? So this is the... So, and devotees, they want to decrease the fever. Decrease the fever. Therefore the highest, ideal life, according to Vedic civilization: brāhmaṇas, Vaiṣṇava. They decrease their demands of the body. Minimum demand. You see? There is amongst the brāhmaṇa, not now, in the Vedic system, the uñca-vṛtti. It is called uñca-vṛtti. Uñca-vṛtti means they will go the paddy field, and after the cultivator takes all the paddies, some paddies are thrown away. They will collect those paddies only.
Atom (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Whenever there is sun, there is sunlight, immediately. Where there is light, immediately there is illumination. Just like a drop of poison. You just take a drop of poison as soon as it touches the tongue immediately it expands all over the whole body and it make the whole blood, water, dead. How it expands, a small grain of potassium cyanide? Simply a grain immediately (indistinct). If a material thing can have so much effect, immediately, the spiritual atom cannot do that? That is called science. Similarly, the biggest spiritual identity, Kṛṣṇa, He can become all-pervading. We are particle spiritual, spark. We have got limited power. (indistinct) Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam, "I become immediately expanded throughout My body." And He is unlimitedly big. So how much His consciousness is distributed all over the world? Sarva-jña. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is not abhijña. Svarāṭ. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheśv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). This example is nice. A grain of potassium cyanide is sufficient. There is no taste. The chemical characteristic of potassium cyanide, they have not mentioned the taste because as soon as there is taste, finished, they cannot... (laughter) He cannot say whether it is pungent or sweet. (laughter) Finished. So there is no taste. (end)
Revatīnandana: Yes. He says because you can't see Him there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore matter means when our consciousness is covered to understand Kṛṣṇa, that is matter.
Śyāmasundara: I want to clear this up. Just like this table. It is full of millions of living entities, but there's not one...
Prabhupāda: Atom. Millions of atoms. But Kṛṣṇa says, "I am within the atom." So how you can say Kṛṣṇa is not there?
Revatīnandana: Now you were also telling me that Kṛṣṇa is in the atom as the jīva expansion.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: Not as plenary expansion.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Revatīnandana: Not as a plenary expansion, but a part of a plenary expansion.
Prabhupāda: A plenary expansion that is also. Jīva is also plenary expansion.
Revatīnandana: So svāṁśa is plenary.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: And vibhinnāṁśa is part of plenary.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: So the presence of Kṛṣṇa in the atom, it is vibhinnāṁśa.
Prabhupāda: No. Both of them there.
Revatīnandana: Both of them? In the atom.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: Kṛṣṇa is not alone there.
Prabhupāda: Whenever the Kṛṣṇa is there, the, everything must be there. (laughter)
Haṁsadūta: But in the Brahma-saṁhitā it says that He is present in every atom in His complete fullness.
Prabhupāda: This brain will not accommodate. But as soon as the king is there you must know the king is with his ministers, secretaries, everything. How you can say the king is alone there.
Śyāmasundara: So they become separated.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: And Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the spiritual world, everything is composed of cintāmaṇi, just like here everything is composed of atoms. So suppose someone develops a spiritual form in the spiritual sky. That form, I mean, that cintāmaṇi, they are living entities also? Are they conscious entities or is that an expansion of the jīva soul's own potency? Just like if someone develops the form of a boy, cowherds boy with Kṛṣṇa, is that an expansion of his potency, of that living spirit soul's potency?
Prabhupāda: That you consider. That we imagine.
Haṁsadūta: That's why I'm asking. Or like in this world, so many living entities are forming of one spiritual form.
Prabhupāda: In one sense it is right. They are spiritual molecules. Yes. Here also, spiritual molecules, but here it is called material because there is no sense of Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Weir: You can build any theory according to the number of postulates you're willing to accept which cannot be analyzed, including the basis of science, the atom, as originally thought of by Theocritus and others is the thing that you cannot go beyond and count down farther in playing with your philosophy or your theology that you go down until you can find nothing, except that you say that causa causam and then you build back again from that. But that's what I was saying earlier on, the Kṛṣṇa is very close to the Unitarian position in Christianity.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Weir: Far more acceptable to every type of Christian than any of the specific creeds or sects, you know, the Church of England, Anglicans, Roman Catholics, every other form of prophecy. And you have that greater universality. (indistinct) And you've got Tibetans (who) will accept your places in the same way as a westerner could.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Dr. Weir: A Tibetan could accept your position.
Prabhupāda: Tiberian? Tibetians? What is their philosophy?
Dr. Weir: You've heard of the Dalai Lama?
Prabhupāda: Yes. What does he say?
Dr. Weir: Well, his position would be the same as yours. Wouldn't it? In religion?
Mensa Member: You mean the Tibetan Buddhist attitude about the Godhead is the same as the Kṛṣṇas?
Dr. Weir: Yes. They have that same basis.
Prabhupāda: But so far we know that Buddhists they do not believe in God, existence of God.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That is, of course, not in the beginning. But you have to know it from the śāstras by the Vedic information, as in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is there in everyone's heart. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is also said, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayā... Not only in my heart, God is also within the atom. So this is the first information. And then, by yogic process you have to realize it.
Bob: Yogic process.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramātmā realization.
Bob: Is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa such a yogic process for realizing this?
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is also yoga, yogic process.
Bob: What kind of yogic process must I do to find out, to feel this information, to feel the soul inside?
Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many different yogic processes, but for this age this process is very nice.
Śyāmasundara: Particles?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Very small, atom-like. They are combined together. It looks that it is one, sunshine. But they are mixture of molecular parts, very small. They are all shining. This is scientific. But it looks one. Even water, that also, small molecular parts. Everything. This matter—a small molecular atom. So everything is combination of several molecular, atomic parts. That's all. You are also atomic spirit. So all the atomic spirit, when they are together, that is called brahmajyo... (loud noise) This... This cannot be stopped? This nonsense bombing?
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is very much disturbing.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our fully developed state in the spiritual sky, are we still one ten-thousandth the size of a tip of a hair like we are now in conditioned state?
Prabhupāda: Your real dimension is mentioned there that you are a spiritual atom. The measurement is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. That is the seed, or basic principle. Now, on that small particle of spirit soul we have developed this body. We have got human bodies, other has got the elephant body, other has got the mountainous body, but this is external. The real seed is that one ten-thousandth part of the hair. Similarly, as you have developed this material body under different consciousness, similarly when we give up the material connection we shall develop our spiritual body, and in that spiritual body we shall be able to enter the kingdom of God, back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position. This body you have to give up, today or tomorrow or one hundred years after. You have to give it up. The Bhagavad-gītā says after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), after giving up this body he does not accept any more material body. Then what happens to him? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), he comes to Me. So "He comes to Me" means just like in your country one who comes to you becomes citizen. He must have some particular qualities or conditions fulfilled, then he will be accepted as citizen or immigrant. Similarly, if we want to go back to home, back to Godhead, then we must develop our dormant spiritual qualities, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is the training period for going back to home, back to Godhead. So that after giving up this body or after this time's death, others who are dying they do not know what next life they are getting. They, although they are proud of education, but they do not discuss what is the constitutional position of the soul, how he is transferring from one body to another, how it is to be done.
Jayatīrtha: ...in Īśopaniṣad that modern-day educational system means culturing avidyā.
Prabhupāda: Yes, avidyā.
Jayatīrtha: So they're spending so much, so many billions of rupees, simply to culture ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Making rogues and guṇḍās and hippies, that's all. The science is manufacturing atom bomb, and philanthropy is becoming hippies. This is the result of education. They are manufacturing compounds, strong contraceptive method, infallible contraceptive method. Suffering only. What is the time now?
Jayatīrtha: (?) minutes to seven.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this propensity will increase in this Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Jayatīrtha: ...so many riots by the students at the university there that the shopkeepers in the local area are suing the State because the windows have been broken so many times and so much merchandise has been stolen by the students, they think the State should pay them back.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they must. The State must be responsible. What the State reply?
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Ugra-karma. Kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ. It is meant for destruction and inauspicity of the world. This is their business.
Locana: If scientists really believed that they were just made out of matter, then there wouldn't be any question of one scientist's thinking he's a person better than another person cause there wouldn't be any individuality, if they believed everything was just atoms and matter.
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Now here is a matter. Why leaves and twigs are not coming. Formerly it was coming. What is the difference?
Locana: The spirit soul.
Prabhupāda: The same, it has grown green, and vegetation. Now the same wood is there. Why it is not coming now? Let scientists explain this.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That simply shows how ignorant the understanding is.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say rascals, simply.
Karandhara: Well they would say the chemical composition has been changed.
Prabhupāda: All right, give the chemicals. You are now advanced in knowing the chemicals. Inject the chemicals.
Brahmānanda: Mūḍha.
Prabhupāda: Mūḍha, ass. The ass works without any profit. So these are asses. Without coming to the right conclusion, they're working hard, day and night, and spending lots of money. So mūḍhas. (pause) Why the scientists are searching out protons, neutrons? To find out the original cause. So they could not find the original cause. They see the middle work only, how the proton is working, neutron is working, atom is working. But wherefrom this arrangement came? How they are working systematically? They do not know. So what is their science?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is just like studying that shadow.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we know that there is a shadow. So there must be a real object.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is real object, there cannot be shadow. Now the sky is clouded. We cannot see above the cloud. Does it mean there is nothing? If somebody: "Oh, there is nothing (indistinct)"
Brahmānanda: All we have to do is fly up there, and it's bright as sun.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is conservation of energy. Pūrṇam idam, pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The understanding in science is that if I burn a piece of wood, that wood contains originally cellulose. So it has certain amount carbons, and a certain amount hydrogens. So if I burn it, that carbon will be converted to smaller molecules like carbon dioxide and water. So if I balance it, starting from the original cellulose, so I'll get a certain number of carbon atoms and hydrogens. So the matter is conserved. In other words, it is not lost. That is the understanding of the science.
Prabhupāda: No, we also, we also say. The energy, we take the sum total, material energy, that is conserved. It is displayed again. When there is annihilation, the whole energy goes back to Kṛṣṇa. Yānti māmikām, prakṛtiṁ yānti māmikām.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the original matter is changed.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The original substance that I started with, changed to some other form.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is just like you take cotton. You make thread. Another form. Then from thread, you make cotton cloth.
Prabhupāda: Spot, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Emanations.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) How the sand is made? According to scientists?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: By the combination of, when one atom of silica, two atoms of oxygen. Called silicon dioxide, the chemical name, or silica. But this is existing as a silicate, as a salt of sodium, magnesium, silicate.
Prabhupāda: So there is salt in the water. So from that salt it is produced?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. It reacts with the sodium, in the water, sodium in the water, in salt, that sodium reacts with silicic acid. So from sodium silicate, that becomes sand.
Karandhara: It's not rocks pounded down?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, rocks? Oh... No, we can make silicate very easily just by mixing the alkali, sodium and then acid, is just the reaction between the acid in the base. So forming an acid...
Prabhupāda: So far we know, there is this sand, combined with silicate of soda, makes glass.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is what we find in science.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is, it is a scientific or clever method of drawing money from others. That's all. In other words, simple words, cheating. That's all. They do not know anything, and they're teaching, scientific method. Now suppose here is big, big waves. You scientists, you say some jugglery of words, proton, atoms, this, that, and hydrogen, phoxygen, oxygen. But what benefit people will get? Simply they'll hear this jugglery of words. That's all. What else you can say? Now suppose it is hydrogen, oxygen, protons, neutrons, all these things. So your position, my position, where is the change? Still we do not get any profit by this jugglery of words.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly, exactly. You made your choice not to go after, or you cannot find it, you say.
Krishna Tiwari: No, that's, that's not... That's your words. That's not my words. My desire is to find more, much, much more than you can place this. (laughs)
Devotee: Fine. But about that person, you see, you can find and find and find. You've got an outlet. You can get his hair and analyze. Each hair you can see millions of atoms. You can count the atoms in each hair. You can go further and further and further. But if you don't know that is an elephant, that's...
Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to know.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So we're talking about the whole, which includes, includes that creator.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now, when...
Krishna Tiwari: I think we don't have much difference of opinion.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And we go, to find about that creator, we go to the source of authority...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: I'm still thinking about the other morning, we were talking about how everything is actually spirit. Everything is composed of spiritual atoms actually, souls. We were talking about the...
Prabhupāda: That is Vedic version, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma, everything is Brahman.
Revatīnandana: When we speak about the transmigration of the soul, we speak about 8,400,000 species. Does that include the inanimate objects as well, within those 8,400,000?
Prabhupāda: Sthāvara, sthāvara, they are called sthāvara, immovable. He means hills, mountains, stones. They are called sthāvara. Sthāvara, which cannot move.
Revatīnandana: So actually we don't really...
Prabhupāda: Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. Two million types of sthāvara.
Revatīnandana: So we don't actually discriminate between the tree, and say, the atom, as a living entity.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Sthāvara, sthāvara means one cannot move, standing. Sthāvara-jaṅgama. There are two kinds of living entities. One moving, one not moving.
Yogeśvara: But the atom is always in motion. The atoms and molecules are always constantly moving.
Prabhupāda: That movement is different. That is not independent movement.
Yogeśvara: Is that to say that a stone has a living entity in it?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: Actually what we discussed is that every, even the elements, the atoms, everything is made of nothing but spirit souls in fallen conditions. Because everything comes from brahma-jyotir, which is nothing but spirit souls, and brahma-jyotir... Therefore soul never changes. So this manifestation is from brahma-jyotir. Therefore, it is made of souls. It is nothing else but spirit souls. Yesterday, a few days ago we discussed that.
Prabhupāda: It is simply covered by another energy which is called material energy. And that is māyā. Māyā means that is not actual, not factual. The example is given, just like the sun is covered by the cloud. The cloud is nothing but another creation of sun. But when the cloud comes, sun is invisible. Similarly this condition, forgetfulness, is my creation and when I am covered by this forgetfulness I become stones and atoms, like that.
Prabhupāda: He has written a big philosophy on sex life. Does it require any education? Anyone knows how to use sex life. And he has written big book. Similarly, defense also: they are making big, big arrangements, atomic bomb. I am making atomic bomb, you are making... Similarly, sleeping: big, big skyscraper building; eating: start thousands of slaughterhouse. Formerly also there were meat-eaters. But did they maintain slaughterhouse? "All right, I want to eat meat. Just go in the forest. Kill one animal. That's all. Pick it up." So this advancement of civilization means advancement of slaughterhouse, advancement of skyscraper building, advancement of atom bomb, advancement of Freud philosophy. This is advancement. The subject matter is the same, which does not require any education. Nobody requires education on this subject matter. Even the birds and beasts, they know what is their eatable. And they eat and they live.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yaśomatīnandana: Or sometimes the jīva may choose directly...
Prabhupāda: The jīva is atomic. It is smaller than the atoms. One ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatāṁśaḥ sādṛśātmakaḥ (CC Madhya 19.140). So every living entity, atom.
Yaśomatīnandana: Is he first allowed...?
Prabhupāda: Less than the atom. Smaller than the atom.
Yaśomatīnandana: Is he allowed to associate with Kṛṣṇa in the beginning?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yaśomatīnandana: As jīva, as jīva is...
Prabhupāda: He's always with Kṛṣṇa. Simply he has forgotten. Have you not been with Kṛṣṇa? We are standing on this sand. The sand is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's energy. We are standing by the water. This is Kṛṣṇa's energy. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). Don't you read that? So is it different from Kṛṣṇa?
Yaśomatīnandana: No, but it is...
Prabhupāda: My body is also Kṛṣṇa's energy. I am also Kṛṣṇa's energy. I am always with Kṛṣṇa. Simply I have forgotten it.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karandhara: Create havoc.
Prabhupāda: Havoc, create havoc. Just as they are doing now. All rascals, they are very busy.
Yaśomatīnandana: Creating atom bombs.
Prabhupāda: Ah, therefore the whole world is in confusion. All rascals, they are busy. What is the use of such business? Like monkey. Monkey's very busy, always, but doing harm. That's all. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, ugra-karmāṇaḥ kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ. These rascals, they are busy just to destroy the whole world and do the mischief. That's all. Actually, they are doing so. That we also... In English language, sometimes it is said, "A sharp razor in the hands of a child." The child... That is this imitation. They want to imitate their father. So if he imitates the razor sharp, then he will create havoc. So these rascals, they have got now all power, and therefore creating havoc. They do not know how to use it. According to Vedic principle, the śūdras, they should not be given more money, the worker class. Now the worker class is given more money. So what they'll do? They'll produce drunkards. That's all. In America, it is evident. They do not know how to use money. So therefore we see, fifty-two percent drunkards in your country. Eh? What is the percentage?
Devotee: I'm not sure, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda, what is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Last night Śrīla Prabhupāda was mentioning about the (indistinct) explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was giving the example that the, the jewel, gem, cintāmaṇi, it produces so many other jewels, but it remains as it is. That is pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Iso Invocation). God, by His... Here. Just like energy. The petrol energy is now being finished. Finished. But what is the petrol there in the sun? It is never finished. But this is also material. So find out what, what is that source of...? Now, after hundred years, your stock is finished now. There is problem now, how to drive your motor car. But here, the sun, aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ. The moon is giving light. Nobody can calculate from where the moon is situated, created and it is spreading light, the sun is, light is there. It is material. You find out. Therefore it is called parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). His energy is unlimited. He can create millions of sun. He has already done it. But still, He's the same. Nothing is lost in His energy. That is God. That is acintya-śakti. Here you have got some money. You spend it. Next day it is all zero. So God never becomes zero. That is God. These rascals, they say ultimate truth is zero, śūnyavāda. They do not know. God is never zero. He's always positive. So you must have a clear idea of God, you theologician. You take all these ideas from Vedic description. Don't be misled by fools and rascals. Here is the God—full energy. There is no loss of energy. That is God. Our energy is lost. Just like I have lost my youthful energy, so God is not like that. That is the difference between God and me. I cannot walk so swiftly or eat more, or so many other things as a young man can do. Because I have lost my youthful energy. But God is always youthful. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (Bs. 5.33). This is definition of God. That He's the oldest person. Because He's the original person, He must be the oldest. But nava-yauvanaṁ ca, but He's always youthful. That is God. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). He has got millions and millions. Just like īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... (BG 18.61). He's staying within the atom, within your heart and everywhere. But still, He's one. That is God. Advaitam acyutam. Advaita means without any duality. Not that because He's living within your heart and within my heart, these two personalities are different. No, They are one. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā: yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra: "One who can see that, although God is everywhere, even within the atom, but still, He's one. That is vision of God."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Mathurā, yes. They have laid the foundation, Indira Gandhi. I think a few months ago I saw in the paper. So there will be one refinery there. So it will be industrial town now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to spoil the spiritual value of Mathurā, Vṛndāvana. They are not giving any more sanction for temples. (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday Rūpānuga Mahārāja was telling me that about the calculation of time through the atom.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Rūpānuga: Calculation of time from the atom, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He is talking about Bhāgavatam. By the light passing over the atom, you can calculate the time, the sunlight passing over the atomic particles.
Prabhupāda: So?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How is it done?
Prabhupāda: I have written that?
Rūpānuga: Yes, you have written, Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Rūpānuga: Third Canto. How the sunlight, you can tell time, that the atom is a subtle form of time, that you can tell time as light passes over the surface of an atom. And the experiment is that you look for atoms in a screen. When the sun comes through the screen, you can see in the sunlight hexatoms or six atoms with your naked eye. That experiment is given in Bhāgavatam. It is very wonderful. Vedic science. We should present that as the real actual science, real atomic science.
Prabhupāda: No, in Bhāgavatam there is regular calculation, what is the distance from one planet to another. Everything is there.
Prabhupāda: No, no. I'll not suffer.
Karandhara: Then don't be rascals.
Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) (in the car:)
Rūpānuga: ...comes in contact with the so-called matter, is that false ego?
Prabhupāda: No, consciousness is spread all over the body. And due to the false ego... (break)
Rūpānuga: How big is the material atom?
Prabhupāda: There is measurement.
Rūpānuga: Oh, in Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: But it is said that unless six atoms are joined together, you cannot see. (end)
Prabhupāda: Another rascal is buying. We are not buying. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam, spotless knowledge, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Amalam. Amalam means without any spot. (break) ...of God is given in the dictionary, "Supreme Being." That is very nice. Everywhere we see that on the top there is a supreme being, just like in your state, the president. So why not this big government, a Supreme Being? Where is the difficulty? Without something supreme, controller, things cannot go nicely. Otherwise why you select a president? Why you select a supreme being and give him all power that "Your order will be final"? Why you do that? Because you want the government must go on nicely. Otherwise there is no need of electing a president. So supreme being must be there, in every management. So this big huge management, there must be Supreme Being. And that is God. Clear, simple understanding. How can you deny? The difficulty is that with our poor fund of knowledge, we cannot understand that how a Supreme Being, person, can create the sky, this huge water, the sun, moon. Because I am thinking, "God must be like me." A Dr. Frog. He is thinking, "Atlantic Ocean must be like this well." That is our defect. He cannot conceive that beyond this well there can be a vast great mass of water. He cannot conceive. So comparing his intelligence, he is thinking that "How it is possible that a person can create such a big sky, such big, huge...?" Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). This earth, so big, huge quantity of earthly planet. So not only one. Millions. And then water, then fire, then... He cannot conceive. He is thinking that "If there is God, He must be like me. So I cannot do this. Therefore there is no God." The same, "Yes. I close my eyes. Then there is no enemies." That's all. He should be intelligent. Just like we are here ten or twenty men. You accept that "He is our guru. He is most intelligent man." Similarly, somebody is more intelligent than me, somebody is more intelligent, more intelligent. Go on searching. Find out the final intelligent. That is comparative intelligence. That we know. But what is that final intelligence? That we must know. That is God. Just like the sun. If we think that beyond this sun there is no more planet, that is not correct. You cannot go beyond this sun. That is another thing. But all the planets are surrounding the sun. That everyone knows. So if there is a planet this down the sun, why not up the sun? It is common sense. This water is impersonal, but go down the water. You will find millions of persons, aquatics. Those who are seeing superficially on the surface, they have concluded, "Now finished, all personality finished. It is all vacant." That is poor fund of knowledge. Real knowledge is go deep into the water, you will find millions of creatures. They are living very nicely within the water. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayān... Even within the atom, you will find personality.
Devotee: Is that personality within the atom Paramātmā?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Govinda.
Devotee: When they release the atomic energy, where does that energy come from?
Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). He is the origin of everything. Don't you read Bhagavad-gītā? Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. The atomic energy is different from sarvasya? Sarvasya means everything. Everything comes from Him. The atomic energy must come from Him. Right conclusion.
Devotee: I was wondering. They say they are splitting the atom, and Kṛṣṇa is living within the atom. When they divide the atom, there is so much energy released.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's energy. Because Kṛṣṇa is there, therefore you will find Kṛṣṇa's energy.
Devotee: Is that more directly Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Directly, yes. You cannot even tolerate the atomic energy, and He has got reserved so many other energies. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). Millions of energies Kṛṣṇa has got. This is one of the energies. You cannot tolerate it. Reservoir of all energies.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Not dead matter. The soul is there.
Bahulāśva: Suppose something, well, something like this shoe that I'm wearing...,
Prabhupāda: It is now dead matter. But when you go, the higher understanding, it is a composition of atoms. So we learn from Vedic śāstra that within the atom there is life. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi (Bs. 5.35). There is, there. If within the atom there is life, then what to speak of anything else.
Bahulāśva: That's a jīvātmā?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Govinda is there.
Bahulāśva: Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: When Kṛṣṇa is there, then Kṛṣṇa is there with everything. Kṛṣṇa cannot be alone.
Prabhupāda: He's situated as Paramātmā, antaryāmī, everywhere, aṇḍāntara-stham, within the universe as Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, within the heart of everyone, and even within the atom. Then how we can walk? Kṛṣṇa is within the atom. How we can walk? If somebody says, "How we are walking on the road?" Because in the atom there is God. Within... Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35).
Guest (1): In everywhere...
Prabhupāda: So this, this is combination of paramāṇu, atom. So how we can walk? People may question like that, that "In, within the paramāṇu, there is Kṛṣṇa. How we are walking on this road?" So this question you should all understand very... You know that upon the mandira, we do not stay. Just like our Vṛndāvana mandira is being constructed. There is no residential quarter upon the mandira. Similarly, when the mandira will be constructed, we are not so fool that we'll show, we'll go and stay upon the mandira. But mandira is not constructed yet. So what shall we do?
Guest (1): Worship should go on.
Prabhupāda: Anyone...
Dr. Patel: "Do you believe in God?" He said, "How can you not believe in God? God is everywhere, and I feel the presence of it." That is the real scientist.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Not the other fellows who say there is no God and all these things are atoms and all...
Prabhupāda: But still, he does not know that Kṛṣṇa is God.
Dr. Patel: That is... That is...
Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. That is ignorance.
Dr. Patel: ...ignorance of God! That means there will be a quarrel between us two.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is ignorance. Mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15).
Dr. Patel: Sir...,
Prabhupāda: As soon as he does not know Kṛṣṇa, he is ignorant. Therefore it will take time. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). When actually he becomes a man in knowledge, then he surrenders. So so long one does not know Kṛṣṇa, he's a fool. And that is our definition. Now, Mr. Sar(?), I am right or wrong?
Dr. Patel: Life is caitanya.
Prabhupāda: Yes, caitanya. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20).
Dr. Patel: Without caitanya nothing can exist.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Dr. Patel: I think even in an atom there is caitanya.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Aṇḍāntara-stha paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). There is. Go on.
Yadubara: "I can be sure this opportunity..." (break)
Prabhupāda: It is His energy, so therefore Kṛṣṇa cannot be under the influence of material energy. (break) Just like, what is called, shade and light. They are the same thing, but shade means the other side of light, absence of light. But light can be there at any time. It is not that because it is shade, there cannot be any light. And this light of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is eradicating the darkness of the shady material world. (break) ...taking so much care of the body. Why? Because there is consciousness. Therefore consciousness is important thing, not this body. (break) ...that "Kaṁsa, this rascal, is sending me to Kṛṣṇa. I'll be able to see Him." That's all. His business was to see Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: He was a diplomat.
Bhagavān: Now they have... the other day in the paper that India exploded its first atomic bomb.
Prabhupāda: Yes, and therefore yet it has become very great.
Yogeśvara: Now its in the top six.
Prabhupāda: But there is no food. Never mind, you starve, but get your atom bomb. That's all. This is civilization. There was a cartoon. Somebody approached some politician, and he said, "Yes, I know there is food problem. So I cannot say what can I do for you, but from next week, you will have television." This is their program, "From next week you will have television." As if television will minimize my hunger. This is the civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you ask problem, I will answer. Your energy, problems of energy, petrol, it will be automatically solved. If we are localized, there is no question of petrol.
Bhagavān: You say in the, I think it's in the Second Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that by doing so much drilling into the earth, they actually disturbed the rotation of the earth.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we can think like that. Just like the plane, aeroplane, is flying. There is sufficient petrol stock. Is it not? So the world has got sufficient petrol stock. If you do not know how it is being used, maybe due to this petrol, it is floating. And if you take away the petrol stock, it may drop. Everything is there. There is a purpose. Pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). There is full purpose. Not that whimsically petrol is there within the earth. There is some purpose.
Nitāi: "Lord Caitanya continued: The expansions of Lord Kṛṣṇa who come to the material creation are called avatāras, or incarnations. Avatāra means one who descends from the higher spiritual sky. In the spiritual sky there are innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets, and from such a planet, the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to this universe, and therefore He is called avatāra. Avatāra means to descend. The first descent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead from the expansion Saṅkarṣaṇa is the puruṣa incarnation. This is confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, both in the First Canto, Third Chapter, as well as in the Sixth Chapter. It is said there that the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends as the first puruṣa incarnation of the material creation, and He immediately manifests sixteen elementary energies. He is known as Mahā-Viṣṇu lying in the Causal Ocean, and He is the original incarnation in the material world. He is the Lord of time, nature, cause and effect, mind, ego, and the five elements, the three modes of nature, the senses and the universal form. He is independent and the master of all objects, moveable and immovable, in the material world. The influence of the material nature cannot reach beyond the Virajā or the Causal Ocean, and this is confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Second Canto, Ninth Chapter. On the Vaikuṇṭha planets there is no influence of the modes of material nature. There is no mixture of modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, neither is there any influence of material time. On those planets, the liberated associates of Kṛṣṇa live eternally, and they are worshiped both by the demigods and the demons. The material nature acts in two capacities as māyā and pradhāna. Māyā is the direct cause, and pradhāna means the elements of the material manifestation. The first puruṣa-avatāra, Mahā-Viṣṇu, glances over the material nature, and thereby the material nature becomes agitated, and the puruṣa-avatāra thus impregnates matter with the living entities. By His glancing, consciousness is created, and consciousness is known as mahat-tattva. The predominating deity of mahat-tattva is Vāsudeva. Consciousness is then divided into three departmental activities under the three guṇas or modes of nature. Consciousness in the mode of goodness is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Eleventh Canto, as the predominating Deity of Aniruddha. Consciousness in the mode of material passion produces intelligence, and the predominating Deity is called Pradyumna. He is the master of the senses. Consciousness in the mode of ignorance is the cause of the production of the ether, the sky and the cause of production of the hearing instrument, the ear. The cosmic manifestation is a combination of all these, and thereby the innumerable universes are created. Nobody can count how many universes there are. These innumerable universes are being produced from the pores on the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu. It is also said that as innumerable atoms are coming and going through the holes in a window, so from the pores of the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu, innumerable universes emanate. From His breathing also, innumerable universes are being produced and annihilated. All His energies are spiritual. They have nothing to do with the material energy. In the Brahma-saṁhitā this fact is also stated. In the Fifth Chapter, fifty-fourth verse, it is said that the predominating deity of each universe, Brahmā, lives only during one breath of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Mahā-Viṣṇu again is the original Supersoul of all the universes. He is also the master of the universes. That is the description of the first incarnation known as Mahā-Viṣṇu. The second Viṣṇu incarnation enters into each and every universe, and in each and every universe He spreads water from His body and on that water He lies down. From His navel the stem of a lotus flower grows, and on that lotus flower the first creature, Brahmā, is born. Within the stem of that lotus flower, there are fourteen divisions of planetary systems which are created by Brahmā. In each universe, the Lord as Viṣṇu maintains the universe tending to its needs, and although He is within the universe, the influence of the material energy cannot touch Him. The same Viṣṇu, when it is required, takes the form of Lord Śiva and annihilates the cosmic... (break) ...Viṣṇu who is the master of the universe, and in each universe there is a manifestation of the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. Although He is within the material nature, still, He is not touched by it. The third incarnation of Viṣṇu is also an incarnation of the mode of goodness. As the Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu, He is also the Supersoul of all living entities, and He resides in the ocean of milk within the universe. Thus Lord Caitanya described the puruṣāvatāras. Then He described the līlāvatāras. He said that there is no count, no limit or count, for the līlā or pastime avatāras, but some of them may be described by the Lord. For example, Matsya, Kūrma, Raghunātha, Nṛsiṁha, Vāmana and Varāha. A description of the qualitative incarnations of Viṣṇu, or guṇāvatāras, is as follows: Brahmā is one of the living entities, but he is very powerful on account of his devotional service. Such a primal living entity by the influence of the mode of material passion is situated as Brahmā. He is made powerful by the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu directly, and therefore Brahmā has the power to create innumerable living entities. A description of Brahmā is given in the Brahma-saṁhitā, Fifth chapter, fiftieth verse. Brahmā is likened to the valuable stones influenced by the rays of the sun, and the sun is likened to the Supreme... (break) ...lamp. Although both lamps are of equal candle power, still, one is accepted as the original and the other is said to be kindled by the original lamp."
Prabhupāda: This is very good example. There are many candles. Just like you ignite one candle. Then from this candle, another candle, another candle. Then many thousands of candles. So each candle is of the same power, lighting power. But still the first one is called original. So far the candle power is concerned, they are of equal flame, but still, the first candle, the second candle, the third candle. like that.
Prof. Regamay: But they have still four thousand years of Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Not four thousand, 400,000. So here the time is coming. And now the partial killing is going on. You drop this... The atom bomb is ready. You have got, I have got. I drop on you, and you drop on me. Both of us, we finish. This is going to be happening. People are so degraded. So unless one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no possibility of being saved. There is example, that grinding mill... You know, grinding mill?
Prof. Regamay: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, and the grains are put within it and they are all smashed. But one grain who takes shelter of the center, the pivot, it is not smashed. Similarly the modern civilization is such that everyone will be smashed. And one takes the central point shelter, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will not be. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So best thing is to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and save yourself. Save means... This is saving, if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma... Kṛṣṇa appears, disappears. Kṛṣṇa works here also, in the battlefield or in other field. Kṛṣṇa has a whole activity. You study Kṛṣṇa Book, beginning from the birth up to the point of His leaving this world. Full of activities. Not that because He is God, He is sitting one place. No. Full of activities in all different spheres of life. Art, philosophy, politics, sociology, military arts—everything complete. That is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "They do not do any industry. They do not kill cows. They do not go to cinema. They do not have illicit sex. They don't drink. No problems. Simply they're eating very nicely and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." Show this example. At least, in this fool's paradise. They are thinking it is paradise. And the paradise is lost every ten years or fifteen years by the bombing. German bombs the France, and France bombs the... This is their paradise. So let them understand that "You are all fools. You are fool's paradise. This is life, what we are doing." Teach them so that the fools will understand what is life. They are manufacturing atom bomb. Russia is hiding himself.
Devotee: Now they've found out, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that India has been, over the past few years, spending crores of rupees to develop the...
Prabhupāda: Hm. And people are starving for want of. There was a cartoon that some public came to some minister: "Sir, we are starving. Give us our food." So the reply was: "Of course, that's a problem, food problem. But I can assure you that from next week you'll have television." (laughter) These rascals are like that. "Next, from next week, you'll have television, atom bomb. Never mind. Starve." (laughter) So that is also becoming fool's paradise. Jaḍa-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava. In this way, the more we increase sense, sense gratification by advancement of material..., the more we forget Kṛṣṇa. And more we forget Kṛṣṇa, we are more fools. (aside:) Don't come so near.
Prabhupāda: So suppose if your heat increases, what happens to you?
Haṁsadūta: I get sick.
Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) ...samudvigna, always full of anxiety. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Intelligence is always absorbed: "Enemy may not come. Let me discover this, discover this atom bomb. This will save me. This will save me." This is their position. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Why this anxiety? Because they have accepted something false as truth. Asad-grahāt. They have accepted sense gratification is the truth. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. Indriyāṇi means senses. Parā, supreme. This is supreme. And then, if somebody is little advanced, indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ. Then the mental speculators, psychologists, philosophers, another, better class of rascals... This is the third-class rascal, and they are second-class rascal. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ, manasas tu parā buddhiḥ (BG 3.42). Then the intelligent class. They consider, "What is this nonsense? They are all suffering here." In this way, one who becomes actually intelligent, wise, then he understands, "Kṛṣṇa is everything." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). So that highest position we are giving by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not training them to be first-class fools, second-class fools, third-class... No. First-class intelligent. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura. Without being first-class, intelligent man, nobody can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness (break) ...drink everything. And why they fight? What is the cause? Suppose father gives all necessities of life to the children. Why they should fight? Simply ignorance and foolishness. That's all. Where is the cause of fighting? Just like Pāṇḍavas, to settle up their misunderstanding, Kṛṣṇa said, "All right, they are kṣatriyas, They cannot take up the occupation of vaiśya or śūdra. Give them five villages so that they'll be happy. They'll rule over, each one on the village." "No, Sir. Not a piece of land holding the tip of the needle can be spared without fighting." This is the world. The German, German war, First World War, what was the cause? The cause was that the Britishers will not allow the Germans to trade all over the world. They captured everything.
Prabhupāda: Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Unless one becomes a devotee of God, there is no question of religion. It is all cheating. By opening hospital, schools,... There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years, the hospitals and schools are being opened, philanthropy. What is the result?
Bali Mardana: Atom bombs.
Prabhupāda: Atom bomb. Result is atom bomb.
Hṛdayānanda: You're the only one, Prabhupāda, who dares to criticize hospitals and schools. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Yes, so many people came to request me... Even Dr. Ghosh. Eh? You know.
Satsvarūpa: He wanted you to open a medical dispensary.
Prabhupāda: "No, no, we are not going to waste our time in that way." I frankly told him. We have no extra time to waste like that. What he thinks very big project, we say it is waste of time. (laughter)
Jayatīrtha: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...atomic bomb there. Huh? (laughter) It is a burning mass of... Suppose it is a burning mass. So what atomic bomb will act there?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Atomic bomb normally acts as, ah, what happened is the particles floating in the atmosphere, like chemicals, chemicals, what happened is this explosion offers this, ah, fundamental particles like neutrons, electrons, they bombard further atoms which are already in the atmosphere. So one by one they knock out these smaller particles called electrons. They move very high velocity. There is a very tremendous energy, amount of energy released. So one... So suppose first atomic bomb, ah, the, ah, the energy-bringing substance like electron, neutron, hits another atom, and then it knocks out several of that sort, and then it makes a chain reaction, not stopping because..., and thereby several atoms they will knock each other, one by one, without stopping. Small particles, so much energy has got. But in the sun planet, where it is so hot, it is already probably more powerful that the atomic bomb itself.
Prabhupāda: Therefore this example. (laughs) What it will act, the atomic bomb, in the sun planet? Similarly, Brahmā might have possessed some power, but what is that power in comparison to Kṛṣṇa? Every power is derived from Him; so Brahmā's mystic power cannot act on Kṛṣṇa. (end)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is. It is there. So actually our body's a combination of these so many living entities.
Prabhupāda: Atoms, yes. Why not? The every living entity is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. So many hairs are there. And that is one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair. Where is the difficulty.
Bali Mardana: So there is one jīvātma who's in control of the body. The others are subservient.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Jīvātma is everywhere. But you have got your own field. Just like for agricultural purpose you have got a big field, but there are so many millions of microbes and...
Bali Mardana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But it is your field. Not that when you go out of the field one of them becomes you. No, that is not. That is individuality. When you leave, you leave your field. That's all.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is the defect of the scientists. They only see the body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their defect. Therefore asses, go-kharaḥ. That is defined. Anyone who takes the body as the self, he is a go-kharaḥ, animal. And that is our protest, that "You are animal; you are passing as very learned scholar, scientist." That we want to protest. We want to expose them, that they are cheating people. They have no perfect knowledge; still, they are passing as scientist and big men and... That is our protest.
Mādhava: Can we say that the living entity is there, and that he is the one that makes the molecules and the atoms come together to form a body just like the scientists give explanation? No? We can't?
Prabhupāda: No. Because the living entity is there for the formation of his body, so many things are going on, action and reaction of the matter. That's all. That is depending on his desires. It is so subtle thing. He is desiring, and action, reaction is going on. And as soon as the living entity is not there, these action and reaction will stop. So they are trying to find out the missing thing. That missing thing is the living entity. That they do not know, foolishly. Just like a motorcar is running very nicely, and as soon as the driver goes away it stops. The machine is there, the everything is there, but this rascal mechanic, he comes, "Something is missing." And why something missing? But he does not know the missing part is the driver. He is finding out in the motorcar what is missing. The motorcar, everything is there. The hand is there, leg is there, heart is there, the intestines are there, everything is there. So they cannot explain. They say, "Now the blood has become white." Then make it red. Where is the difficulty? So they do not know what is missing; neither he'll take, I mean to say, learned instruction. That is their defect. Real thing is the driver is missing, but that they will not accept. They are so foolish, they are thinking that motorcar is running automatically.
Devotee: He's coming.
Prabhupāda: Yes. India... Formerly your country was part of India, and you belong to the same culture. So far I understand, Iran means Āryan? So Āryan culture was practically all over the world. Āryan culture is based on God consciousness. So amongst the Āryans there is some conception of religion, either Christian religion or Mohammedan religion, Buddhist religion, Vedic religion, based on conception of God. So according to time, country, the ways of understanding may be little different, but the aim is God consciousness. That is Āryan civilization. So God is one; God cannot be two. So the features of God or angle of vision of God may be different. So they have been summarized in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (Aside:) You can come forward. One feature of God is impersonal. Just like the sunshine. Sunshine is spreading all over the universe. It is impersonal. But the quality of the sunshine is heat and light. The heat and light means energy. So as in the material calculation, the heat and light is the cause of all creation. Just like at the present moment there is not sufficient heat; therefore the trees have no leaves. And as soon as there will be little more heat they will be all green. So you can take it that the creation of the foliage is due to the heat. Similarly light. So heat and light is the cause of all this material creation. And heat and light is coming from the sunshine, er, sun. Therefore heat becomes the origin of creation even in this material world. Similarly, there is another light. That is the original light. This is reflection. That is called brahma-jyotir, spiritual light. So in this way one conception of God is like that. Another conception of God is: God is situated everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. Because God is situated within the universe, within the atom, therefore they are existing. Just like the ātmā, or spirit soul, is situated in you, in me, in everyone. This is called Paramātmā feature. And at the ultimate end there is the person, God as person, the Supreme Person, the Supreme Being, a person like you and me—we are person—but He is almighty, all-powerful. This is the conception of Absolute Truth: God, Paramātmā, and Brahmājyoti. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). This is the Sanskrit word. He is realized as Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is person; Paramātmā is all-pervading, means localized, situated; and Brahman means all-pervading. All together-God. This is the idea.
Prabhupāda: (Speaks in Bengali) Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered,
- bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
This is para-upakāra. So what is this nonsense para-upakāra, creating an atom bomb? Is that para-upakāra? Of course, it has got its utilization, but it is not for para-upakāra. (Bengali) Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (Bengali) Śūdra is the cātur division, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Now in India mostly they are śūdras, 99.9. They are not interested that satya śamo damas titikṣa arjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). (Bengali) They are captivated by the śūdras. This, during the British period the śūdra activities, developing the country by railway, by factory, by bridge—these people are innocent. They thought that "Oh, here is the actual civilization. The Britishers have brought." They lost their own civilization.
Rāmeśvara: Their argument is that matter is always in motion, that it is always moving.
Prabhupāda: Where is moving? This is moving?
Rāmeśvara: Well they say the atoms, the molecules, are always in motion.
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all prove that this is moving. Then all, say all this nonsense. First of all, why it is not moving? This, this piece of earth, why it is not moving?
Viṣṇujana: They say it's moving very slowly. You can't see it moving.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?
Viṣṇujana: It's moving so slow, you can't see it.
Prabhupāda: Then you become blind. Then you can see.
Devotee: But they'll say the whole world is moving, the whole cosmic manifestation is moving.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. But then how that is moving, we have to settle. But matter, as itself, does not move.
Madhudviṣa: Advancement of science.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to become blind is advancement, certainly. When this is... Who will say it is moving unless he's a fool? Nonsense. (laughter) Moving, that's all right. Everyone... The whole world is moving. That is another thing. But as it is, why, where it is moving?
Rāmeśvara: They're talking about the atomic structure, that the atoms are moving.
Prabhupāda: And therefore it is moving.
Rāmeśvara: Within, the atoms, there is movement.
Prabhupāda: Then here, today, this morning, you'll see it is lying there. Tomorrow you'll come. You'll see it is lying there. Where it is moving? What does it mean by moving?
Rāmeśvara: Well, they say that when atoms...
Prabhupāda: They say! You say what it is. Don't say "They say." You use your intelligence. If the foolish man says something, shall I have to accept it? You use your own intelligence. "They say." If they are authority, then we have got authority. If you do not accept my authority, why shall I accept your authority? Come to argument. "They say." Why we will accept "They say"? They... Why? Are they authority?
Rāmeśvara: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Madhudviṣa: So similarly, you may walk by this earth every day and see it is stationary, but if you analyze it underneath a microscope, you will see that there is so much movement going on within.
Prabhupāda: But that is due to air. That is due to air. Just like we can see so many atoms are moving in the hole from the wall, but that is due to air. So this is also moving. The whole thing is moving by air.
Viṣṇujana: But not of itself.
Prabhupāda: Not automatically.
Viṣṇujana: Not of itself.
Prabhupāda: Not automatically. You cannot say automatically. No, air is moving. Just like the, in the air, the cloud is moving. The cloud is not moving. The air, moving, and the cloud moving.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Rāmeśvara: Before I was asking about the scientific theory that the atoms are always moving, and you said that the earth is not moving now.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Rāmeśvara: You said that the... You pointed to a chunk and said that it is not moving. But they're...
Prabhupāda: But if you..., then you are also moving. Everything is moving because you are on the earth. When the train moves, everything moves. But how it moves, train? That you have to search out. Train is not automatically moving. Some power, engine, is moving it. That is blind vision, that "Train is moving." How the train is moving? You have to see. That is childish. Train is not moving. The engine is moving the train. And how the engine is moving? The coal, fire, is moving. Then wherefrom the coal come? In this way, you have to search out. You'll find, ultimately, the supreme cause is Kṛṣṇa. Nothing is moving without Kṛṣṇa's indication. That is the explanation,
Mayādhyakṣeṇa: (BG 9.10) "Under My superintendence..." When Kṛṣṇa desires, this big, big chunk will move in the air. Recently, Madhudviṣa Mahārāja said, the buses were flying in the sky.
Devotees: Oh, in that, that cyclone, cyclone...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And whole city smashed.
Rāmeśvara: They don't know how to search beyond the microscopic level, microscope level. They think that the atoms have their own energy. They don't know the process of searching...
Prabhupāda: The energy is: Kṛṣṇa is there. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). The asura's business is to avoid Kṛṣṇa. That is their business. And our business is to establish everywhere Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between them and ourself.
Rāmeśvara: There is one theory that even the atoms have intelligence because the way they combine together to form larger molecules...
Prabhupāda: That means that is Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. They do not see Kṛṣṇa. Try to understand the whole philosophy because you have to preach and you have to confront so many atheist rascals.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These scientists need gurus.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists need guru.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They never even think of these things.
Prabhupāda: When they are captured and cornered, they say, "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do that." Post-dated check. "You take this check. In future it will be paid." Who will accept that check?
Rāmeśvara: To that, they always say that in the past, man laughed at some scientific theories, and later they were proven...
Prabhupāda: It is not scientific. It is all rascaldom. What you are giving, that is not science, that is rascaldom. Why shall I accept it is scientific? Because you have no full knowledge. What you are giving, it is simply rascaldom. Jaya.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, someone asked a question the other day about the atom which I couldn't give the answer to. His question is that if we say that within the atom the living entity, the jīva, is present, and life symptoms means six symptoms of birth, growth...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Their life symptoms has not yet come. But there is.
Jayādvaita: Potential.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His question was... It was sort of a dual question. At what time, or what...? Just like at the time of disintegration of this body, the living entity leaves this body and the body disintegrates, so does the atomic body also disintegrate when the living entity leaves it and moves to a higher body?
Prabhupāda: Atomic body? Atomic body means material body. Unless you are free from this material body, the atomic body will go on with you. That means unless you are mukta, the atomic body will go on. Mind, intelligence, ego—they are also atomic, finer atomic body.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But within each atom the living entity is present?
Prabhupāda: Yes. God is present; therefore living entity is present.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the living entity is present within the atom just as I am present within this body. When I leave this body, my body breaks apart.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you leave this body, enter another body.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.
Prabhupāda: By nature's law.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And when I leave this body, the body breaks apart.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When I leave this body, the body dis...
Prabhupāda: The body is already atomic combination.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So it remains atomic combination. You leave the body.
Haṁsadūta: He's asking that if the soul leaves the atomic particle, then does the particle break apart. Isn't it?
Prabhupāda: No, no. You have not left atomic particle.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but you, you're... I think you were saying that within the atom there's also a living entity. So when that living entity leaves the atomic particle does the particle break apart? Or doesn't it? I mean what...?
Prabhupāda: Just try to understand. From the śāstra, you understand that aṇḍāntara-stham: "God lives within the atom."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And when the God is there, living entity's also there. This... This much you try to understand. Because God and living entity, they remain together, as two friends. God is trying to save this fallen friend. That is the information from Upaniṣad. So when God is there, the living entity is also there.
Rūpānuga: So Paramātmā and jīvātmā are always together.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can we say that the living entity is present within the atom by consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Hm? No. Consciousness will gradually develop according to the bodily situation.
Pañcadraviḍa: How does the jīva get out of the atom and take a gross body?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Pañcadraviḍa: How will that jīva..."
Prabhupāda: (laughing) Body is combination of atoms. How he gets out of the atom. Body is nothing but combination of many atoms. Everything material is combination of many atoms. That's all.
Pañcadraviḍa: The jīvas inside the atom, are they like impersonalists who are in the Brahman?
Prabhupāda: That you consider. He has not developed his consciousness. Practically, it is like dead.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, if there was a war, a large-scale war, I think that our farming projects...
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that the various farm projects that we have would be very good because, as you said, the cities would be bombed, but the farms would not be disturbed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The farm project... Even some hundreds of years, it was so nice. Even there was war, they would not attack the farmers. Rather, they would ask, "Where the other party has gone?" So they will say: "Oh, we have seen some soldiers going this way." That's all. They were not affected. That was the principle. Farmers were not attacked, just like at the present moment, the law is the civilians are not attacked. The military target is attacked. That is the law. But they do all nonsense. Even at the present moment civilians are not attacked. Just like Kurukṣetra Battle. It was taken far away from the civilian inhabitation.
Rāmeṣvara: In modern warfare it's...
Prabhupāda: Why not? Yes. But they, they are so rascals, they throw bomb anywhere.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially atom bomb.
Prabhupāda: But one thing is that because civilians are also responsible for declaring war, because the parliament is the representation of the people...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Karma.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, now the war is between people to people, nation to nation. They support with men and money. So therefore they are also killed by nature's law. (break)
Rāmeṣvara: Prabhupāda, in the Ādi-līlā, you wrote that the Communist movement is greater than the capitalist movement because there are more śūdras than vaiśyas so that in a war between Communism and capitalism, the Communists would win.
Prabhupāda: Naturally. They are in greater number.
Prabhupāda: When you take then I shall believe.
Devotee: Well, we can show some rocks. We can show some rocks that you won't find anywhere on this planet.
Prabhupāda: No, that is refuted. The other scientists, they have said these rocks can be found here.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing is that in your Vedas it says that the atom is the smallest particle but yet we have...
Prabhupāda: No, smaller than atom there is. Atom is called paramāṇu. Then it is anugra paramāṇu, (?) smaller than the atom.
Devotee: Does that mean the electrons?
Prabhupāda: Whatever you say. But śāstra is there. (devotees laugh) Be convinced of your footing, (chuckles) otherwise you'll be defeated.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the other day we were talking about proving different assumptions through archeological findings.
Prabhupāda: That is also bogus. Archeological findings is bogus.
Amogha: The Supersoul, does He... I remember in one place it describes that the Lord is so small that He can enter even into the heart of the individual soul, and...
Prabhupāda: Even into the atom. So where is the difficulty?
Amogha: Well sometimes it is described that the Supersoul is situated beside the individual soul. So He's beside the individual soul, not inside the individual soul.
Prabhupāda: Inside does not mean He is not beside. We are inside this room, that does not mean I an not beside the room. Because I live within the room, does it mean that the room and myself are the same? Then, why don't you understand this? God may be within anything, but that does not mean that He is equal or one with that thing. That is Māyāvādī philosophy, foolish philosophy. Because I am within this room, does it mean that the room and myself are the same? I am more important than the room. So what is the difficulty to understand? Does it mean because I am within the room, I am less important than the room? The room is important or I am important? Who is important?
Amogha: You are.
Kim: Another question. I asked earlier about the nature of ātman, now the nature of Brahman?
Prabhupāda: Brahman means the greatest, so as the sky, to our experience the sky is greater. What is the sky? The sky is a combination of small atoms. Do you know that? So if the sky is Brahman, then it is a combination of small atoms, then the small atoms are also Brahman? Just like a huge stack of rice, they are called rice, and a small grain of rice, that is also rice. So therefore there are two kinds of Brahman—the component parts of the Brahman they are also Brahman, and whole Brahman is also Brahman. Do you follow?
Kim: I hear the words.
Prabhupāda: Why don't you understand?
Kim: I follow the analogy of the rice.
Prabhupāda: The sky, the Brahman. What is the sky? A combination of atoms. So the component parts they are also Brahman, otherwise how it is Brahman? Unless the component parts are Brahman, how is it Brahman? It is a combination of many component parts, small Brahman. Param Brahman. Param Brahman means the supreme. The sea water, ocean water. Ocean water is very big, that is Brahman. Big means Brahman. But what is this ocean water? Small molecules of water. Sometimes we see the sea waves, small molecules, cool. So it is combination of small Brahman. So, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. And we are a small, very small fragmental portion of Brahman. How small are we? One ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. We cannot see even the tip of the hair, very small point. And you have to divide it into ten thousand parts. And that one part—you, I, everyone. So small. So everything is Brahman. It is said sarva khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. Why? Because the Brahman is very big, but what is this big? The big is a combination of small molecules, atoms. What is your idea of Brahman?
Siddha-svarūpa: I don't think so.
Prabhupāda: Is it not possible?
Siddha-svarūpa: No, but they're trying to ruin the one that already exists.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That also not possible. (break) ...let them drop this atom bomb and ruin it.
Siddha-svarūpa: Break it, yeah? They will break it. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...ship? What is that?
Siddha-svarūpa: It's a buoy.
Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) Is there any fruit?
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, there's a fruit. It's fairly nice, but...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...date.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yeah, the birds... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...is very nice.
Bali-mardana: "Because we cannot see God in our laboratory, therefore we will not discuss Him."
Prabhupāda: But why do you teach us? We do not see whatever you say. We do not, so why do you place upon us? If seeing is evidence, then we don't see what nonsense you are talking.
Siddha-svarūpa: We don't see their atoms. We don't see their sputniks flying and landing or anything.
Prabhupāda: Why do you talk?
Bali-mardana: They want to put themselves in the place of the supreme authority.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. If that is your reason, that you don't see God, but we don't see that you are going to the moon planet. Why you make us believe that you are going to moon planet?
Harikeśa: They might also say that we don't have the eyes to see the atoms and things like that.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then you take our formula. Why do you expect to see God with your eyes? That means they are shameless atheist. Other atheists, they have got little shame, but these people have no shame even. (break) ...ādhamāḥ, lowest of the mankind. māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. (break) Where? The zoo?
Bali-mardana: They roam about freely. It's over there.
Prabhupāda: We. (break) There was an artificial famine in India and I particularly inquired from all devotees whether they have got any problem in this famine. They said, "No, we haven't got." I have taken the statistics. In 1942 the artificial famine created by government... So there were big earthquake in Bihar. At that time one of my godbrother, he was government auditor. So I inquired. In that earthquake only his house was saved. I have seen it many times. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). That is the only....
- samāśritā ye pada-pallava-plavaṁ
- mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ
- bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ paraṁ padaṁ
- padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām
- (SB 10.14.58)
Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām. It is not meant for them, all these dangerous condition. Now the nuclear war means it will not continue very long. The first party who will drop the bomb on the other party, he will be victorious, and immediately the war will stop. They are simply arranging how to drop the atom bomb first. So one who will be able to drop the bomb first, he will be victorious. It doesn't require long time. Just like in Japan, as soon as the Americans dropped the atom bomb in Hiroshima, immediately they surrendered. This will be the result. Now the question is who will be able to drop the bomb first.
Siddha-svarūpa: The Japanese didn't have any atom bombs to send back, though.
Prabhupāda: No. It was in possession of Hitler. And your American stolen and kept it. Hitler wanted to use it, but, good sense, he did not like. He said that "I can do it immediately, but I will not do it." So three bombs they kept ready, and when Germany was in awkward condition these Americans, they stolen, and they used it in Japan. This was manufactured by the German.
Bali-mardana: Most of the American scientific knowledge for going to space, etc., is all gotten from the Germans.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bali-mardana: They stole the German scientists. And the Russians also, after the war, they took many German scientists.
Prabhupāda: I think the aeroplane was made by the Germans first.
Bali-mardana: Yes, the jet airplane, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they took it, the idea, from Sanskrit literature. Yes. They purchased the book from Benares.
Devotee: In India we have, and Hawaii, the firecrackers going up, the idea was from there.
Harikeśa: The Germans also had the idea that this universe is encaged in some hard layers. And they were trying to bounce waves off of the edge of the universe.
Prabhupāda: No, the Germans, they very much praised Indian culture. That my godbrother Soulier, when he came to India he said that "When Indian students come to our country, first of all we inquire how much he has got asset of his own culture. If we find that he has got some knowledge in his own culture, then we receive. Otherwise we reject." As soon as they found that somebody is made of London culture, then immediately they reject. There are many Sanskrit scholars in Germany.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is helping us. Take advantage of it. (break) Vyāsadeva compiled Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam for this purpose. Anartha upasamam sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaja. These lokasya ajānataḥ, people are suffering on account of ignorance, so to give them proper knowledge, he made this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (break) Who can become more learned than Vyāsadeva? Therefore he is known as vidvān, the most, supreme learned. He made this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam to help these rascals who are spoiling their life only in sense gratification. (break) Life is meant for tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed (SB 5.5.1). They do not know that our existentional condition is impure. The question does not arise that "I do not wish to die. Why there is death?" They are so dull-headed, this question does not... They are trying to solve so many question, but this question does not arise in their mind, that "I don't wish to die. Why death is forced upon me?" Inquire. Come on, all philosophers and scientists, come and make an inquiry commission, that "I don't want to die. The death is forced upon me. I don't want to become old man, and it is forced upon me. What is the reason?" Therefore they are rascals. The prime problem, they have set aside. Big, big scientists... That Professor Einstein and other, other, they are big, big scientists. They do not consider this question, that "I am a big scientist. So I am also going to die. So why it is?" That question, they have set aside. And they manufacture atom bomb to make dead very easy, not to stop death, but death-making very easily available. This is scientific. Hmm? Is that scientific?
Bahulāśva: No.
Revatīnandana: Some time back I was reading an article on an airplane, one of those airline news magazines, about the science of gerontology, the science of putting off death or stopping death. They say, "Within twenty-thirty years we will have stopped it. We will even reverse the process of old age. We'll become younger." That was their claim.
Prabhupāda: They can do it—that is credit. But what is this credit, that people are dying and you discover atom bomb to accelerate death very quickly? If they are thinking like that, then sanity is coming. At least, they are thinking like that, that "Why death should not be stopped?" That will be credit if they can do so, but at least this question, it comes. Then they become human being, not dogs. And so long this question does not come, they are cats and dogs. This is athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the inquiry. Sanātana Gosvāmī when he approached Caitanya Mahāprabhu he first questioned this, ke āmi, keno more jape tāpa-traya: "I was minister. That's all right. But I do not know why I shall accept death. Therefore I have come to You." This is minister, intelligence, that "People praise me, I am minister, I am very learned scholar, but I do not know why I am under the tribulations of three-fold miseries, and what is my position." Ke āmi, keno more jape tapa-traya: "Who I am? I don't want all these things, why they are troubling me?" Grāmya-vyavahāre paṇḍita, tai satya kori mani: "These fools and rascals, they call me, I am very learned scholar, and I also accept it, but I do not know why I am suffering." This is Sanātana Gosvāmī's question. So what they are doing? They are making research?
Prabhupāda: No own science. This is science. They are following blindly, nonsense, the Radhakrishnan and company. We are following... Therefore our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara has said, "Kṛṣṇa, the greatest scientist." We are following the greatest scientist. They are rascals. They are following the false scientist.
Bahulāśva: They have never seen the atom, but they believe in it.
Prabhupāda: Atom, atom not question of seeing. You can count all the atoms throughout the universe; still, you cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa. You may be so great scientist that you can count each and every atom within the universe, but still, you shall remain unable to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is stated in the śāstra. Now here is sand. You can say, "There are so many sands." And this is only a small beach, but you can say how many sands and atoms are there within the universe. You can become so qualified. But still, you are unqualified to understand Kṛṣṇa. Radhakrishnan, Dr. Radhakrishnan was a good man, brāhmaṇa, but he was victimized by the western culture. He got some money from Oxford University. Therefore he took the westerner—his father mother, that's all. That is his qualification. Whatever the westerners say, they will say, he will say, "Yes, this is science." Not only Dr. Radhakrishnan, all the big men of India, they thought like that.
Dr. Pore: In that illustration is Kṛṣṇa the sunshine or is Kṛṣṇa the sun?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the person. God is ultimately a person. And then, by His another potency, He is situated everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramānu-cay... He is situated within the atom also. That is called Paramātmā, Supersoul. And He is situated in His impersonal, the whole material creation or any creation. The example is given just like fire. Fire is one place but its heat and light is expanded to mines. Just like the sun. It is a fire light, but heat and light is expanded throughout the universe. So similarly, God is one and His energy is expanded everywhere. You can understand Him by His energies. Just like the government, the president, he is not here, but still, we are under government. Who can deny, that "I am not under government"? If you say, "I do not see who is president. What is the government?" That is not argument. You are. Simply you have to make your eyes to see how you are under Kṛṣṇa. That is required. But you are already.
Prabhupāda: So everything is explained. If anyone wants to take advantage of it, he can take. We have got fifty books like this. Those who are interested in the science and philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they can read all these books. Otherwise, one can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, That will also help. The human civilization means everyone shall try to become first-class man. This is human civilization, not to remain like animals. That attempt is lacking now. Here the civilization is that the dog is jumping or running, and human being is running in a motor car, and he is thinking he is more civilized than the dog. But the business is running. That's all. The dog is having sex on the street, and the human being is having sex in a very nice decorated apartment and therefore he is civilized. But the business is the same. The dog is eating on the floor and the human being is eating in a very nice table, nice dish, and therefore he is civilized. But the business is eating. The dog is trying to defend itself by barking or by teeth and jaws, and the human being is trying to defend the society by atom bomb, but the business is defense. Therefore śāstra says, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samanyam etat paśubhir narāṇām: "This business of eating, sleeping, mating, and defending is common to the animal and to the man." The man, if he does not understand what he is, why he is suffering this material tribulations, then he remains cats and dogs.
Prabhupāda: They are directing. Just like in the jail there are different departmental management, similarly, this management is required because you are in the jail. If you don't go to jail, the management may be closed. But you are thinking, "If I do not go to jail, how it will exist?" That is your business, say that "If we all become liberated, how this world will go on?" They say like that, as if it is very necessary.
Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is the subtle bodies in the subtle world, are they made up of subtle atoms?
Prabhupāda: Subtle body means subtle atoms. So if we are in subtle body, so whatever there is in the subtle body, everything is there.
Devotee (6): Prabhupāda, sometimes on saṅkīrtana we say that the human form of life is the highest because in this form we can understand God, and they say, "Well, what about the dolphins? You know, they've been doing experiments with the dolphins, and they've been finding out that the dolphins have their own conversations and things like that."
Prabhupāda: So what they have done with the dolphins? They are talking only. What they have done? Simply theorizing.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: So this mental speculation or this "perhaps" and "maybe" is a misuse of his specific power to understand God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The life, human life, is meant for enquiring about God, and God is explaining Himself about God. Instead of studying Bhagavad-gītā very scrutinizingly, they are wasting time. "The cells, this, that, atom." That's all, wasting time Just like we are driving this car. So we can utilize it for going from one place to another. So there is no need of studying how the car is moving, how many parts are there.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: But still, people seem to have always a curiosity about these things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That curiosity is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā that it is a machine and there are many subtle parts of the machine. So you have been given this machine. You utilize it properly. Why you are busy in studying the different parts? The different parts are there undoubtedly. But you cannot actually understand.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: We're going to take a picture, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: All right. (end)
Prabhupāda: Theorize, theorize. But we say corn is produced... When the seeds are thrown on the ground, then corns are produced. Wherefrom... The corn is not dropping from the sky.
Paramahaṁsa: Originally, right.
Prabhupāda: We have not seen the original.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, originally, they say, it was just some chance combination of atoms and molecules...
Prabhupāda: That is... A chance means you are a rascal. Nothing takes place with chance. That is his rascaldom. Nothing takes place. The answer is in the Bhagavad..., bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām: (Bg 7.10) "The original seed I am." The answer is there. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Challenge these rascals. They are cheating so many people.
Bahulāśva: Well, then they want to say that if nature can't be self-existing, how can God?
Prabhupāda: All right, nature is existing, but our proposition is that without father, how nature can give birth? If the woman is existing, the man must be existing. Just like in your country it is experienced that a girl has given birth to a child. Nobody knows who is the father. But still, it is accepted that she was pregnanted by a man, that is... You cannot say. It may be missing, but you have to accept, not that this girl is giving birth child without any union with a man. You cannot say that.
Bahulāśva: Now the scientists are studying the atom, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and they agree...
Prabhupāda: No, first of all let us know what they have done. What science they have done. They are proposing all nonsense theories, that nature is producing. So even if you accept nature as supreme, then you are subordinate. You are not independent. You are under... That also I explained. Pṛakrteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra vimu... (BG 3.27). Why you are thinking independent? You are being carried away by the ear, pulling, "Come here." You are thinking there is no birth, but there is birth. Every moment you are having a new life, new birth by the... You can say, "I will not become old man," but prakṛti will not allow you. You must become old man. You can say, "I will not die." You must die. So you are so dependent. Even if you accept only prakṛti, no father, you are a fatherless child, that's all right, but even the mother... You have to accept the authority of the mother. Where is your independence? You are thinking foolishly.
Prabhupāda: Well, money is everyone is getting. The dog is also getting. Sometimes dog is inheriting the property of his master. But that does not mean he is not a dog.
Paramahaṁsa: About one month ago there was a very big story in the newspapers about how this student who went to all the archives in the Washington D.C. library, and from known records he compiled enough information to construct an atom bomb. Did you hear about that?
Prabhupāda: No.
Paramahaṁsa: He became world famous. So they concluded that anyone who wanted to could get normal information from normal sources and theoretically construct an atom bomb. But they don't have the equipment, but they have the knowledge now. So they're proposing in that sense that any terrorist organization within the next five years will be able to invent their own atom bomb.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact.
Prabhupāda: How they can prevent? That he does not know, how to prevent. He can accelerate. That's all. (break) ...puts before us, "Here is your problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Solve it." Where is that scientist? They avoid the real problem and take some childish problem. (break) ...not any hidden problem. It is the open problem. Kṛṣṇa puts it: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, The real seer will see to these problems. There is no answer or solution of these problems. Where is the solution of these problems? Where is the biochemist or the psychologist or the atom bombist?
Paramahaṁsa: The theory nowadays is that by the proliferation of atomic weapons, that Russia has so many weapons, China has so many weapons, the United States has so much...
Prabhupāda: Everyone now. India has also.
Paramahaṁsa: They're all afraid of using them.
Prabhupāda: They must use it. That is nature's arrangement.
Bahulāśva: The scientists now, they have been studying the different atoms. They say that the origin is what they call pure energy. And they describe that as a disembodied electrical charge.
Prabhupāda: Jugglery of words, that's all.
Bahulāśva: Their idea is very close to the Brahman conception, though. They think that one pure energy is pervading the whole universe.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bahulāśva: And it has no material properties.
Prabhupāda: As soon as you accept energy, then you must enquire what is the source of the energy? Energy is produced. Just like here is energy, but it is produced under certain arrangement. Where the energy is being produced? If you accept energy, that is knowledge. Now, just like electrical energy is, what is called, generated in the powerhouse. You cannot say the electrical energy has jump over. It is being generated. Eh?
Bahulāśva: Yeah.
Paramahaṁsa: In the British historical museum in London, I have seen there's a plate about this large, and half of it is pure gold, and the other half is lead. And they found this. They can't explain. It's just a straight line where they separate, and they can't explain how it was produced. So they're experimenting now to try to change lead because there's only, what is it, one proton or electron in the atom? Different. There's only like one proton difference between lead and gold. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...the sky there are many big, big planets where the millions of miles made of gold. Just like desert, there is gold desert.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. We saw coming here a salt desert. There's a whole desert of salt.
Prabhupāda: Where?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Utaḥ. It's called salt flats. There's a great salt lake. And the lake is gradually drying up. And for miles and miles and miles, simply salt.
Prabhupāda: Even in this planet.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is not duty? This is the main duty. This is the main duty. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām (BG 18.66). We have taken responsibility for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are doing. Why we are traveling all over the world thrice in a year? We have taken the responsibility. Otherwise, who is, an old man, he'll take such responsibility? That is a greater responsibility. When you become a big officer of the government, it means you overburdened with responsibility, not this flickering resp... Here the material respons... means it has no use. You are simply wasting time. And here is real responsibility and real life. That I explained to that lady, that "Even if you take respons... what can you do? You cannot do anything." The example I gave, that "You have taken responsibility for your son's disease. He is suffering. You have brought good physician, you have brought good medicine, everything, but what can you do? In spite of your all responsibility, your son dies. Then where is the value of your responsibility?" Do you think simply by bringing a nice physician and nice medicine you can save your son? Then where is your responsibility? Actually you cannot do anything, so what is the use of saying that "I am responsible"? You cannot do anything. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If one blind man says, "I'll take responsibility. You all blind men follow me," so what is the use of this responsibility? He will die and others will die. So what is the meaning of this responsibility? Even if you take as very responsible man, you cannot do anything. That is not possible. You cannot save. Who wants that "My son dies, my father dies, and I'll take them and..."? But one little disease will finish your responsibi... Every nation is taken, all the leaders, and as soon as there is war, thousands and thousands will be killed. What responsibility? As soon as one atom bomb is dropped, then is many thousand will be finished. Then what is your responsibility? You cannot give. You can make a statue: "These soldiers died. These soldiers died." That's all. But you could not save them from death.
Lalitā: What you say, you act according to that.
Prabhupāda: No, what I learn from Kṛṣṇa I say. I don't say independently. That is not my business. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. (break) How? Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You deliver your village people and become a guru. Everyone is not going to be so big that he can go all over the world. But everyone can teach within his limit, within his family, within his community, within his village, within his town, within his district. As he is capable, he can increase. But everyone can become a guru and deliver the local people. How? Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Then you are guru. As soon as you manufacture anything nonsense, then it is spoiled. That is going on. So many gurus are there; they are manufacturing. They are becoming Kṛṣṇa. That is nonsense. That is nonsense. You cannot become Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Bhagavān sakala hṛdaya... (break) Can you stay in everyone's heart? You are claiming God. This one instance. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛdeśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati. He is aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ. He is within this universe, and He is within the atom. You are claiming to be Īśvara, God. Are you within the atom? Are you within everyone's heart? Then how do you claim that you are Īśvara? Practical. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ (BG 18.61). Īśvara, God, God is everyone's heart. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭhaḥ (BG 15.15). (Bengali) ...on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā... (Bengali) And as soon as you manufacture something, then it is spoiled. (Bengali) That is going on. The so-called gurus, they get some mystic power, yoga-siddhi, and they show it and they mislead people that he is God. That is the difficulty. We never said... Where is that book? (Bengali) ...gurus. Again he has to go? (Bengali) So far as I am concerned, these things are not there. About me, I am... In Dallas I am taking one child's hand and I am teaching them how to write "a," "a." (Bengali) Where is that professors?
Brahmānanda: Professor...
Prabhupāda: No, all these professors. Those who are purchasing our books.
Prabhupāda: Busy intelligent means at least whatever he is doing, there is some meaning, busy intelligent. And lazy intelligent means he is doing higher things. Lazy intelligent means brāhmaṇa, and busy intelligent means kṣatriya. So the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). The society should be divided into four classes. The śūdras, they are busy fools. Therefore they are to be guided. They are to be guided. If there are, hundred workers are there, then one leader must be there to give the direction: "Why you are doing this? Why you don't do this?" Otherwise he'll create havoc. Busy fool. So the whole world is full of busy fools. That's all. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find that for brāhmaṇa, śamo damaḥ satyaṁ śaucaṁ titikṣa ārjavam, jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma sva... (BG 18.42). There is no recommendation that "You work hard day and night." The brahminical qualification is controlling the senses, controlling the mind, truthful, clean, knows everything nicely, practical application of the knowledge, full faith in śāstra and Bhagavān. Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. These things are recommended, not that a brāhmaṇa should become very busy whole day and night for getting food. So śāstra says, "There is no use of becoming busy for your food. Food is there already." Food is already there. He'll get his food. That is arrangement by God. But they are busy fool. They do not understand the God's arrangement. Only for food they are busy whole day and night like cats and dogs. Now this land is there. You can... Everyone can grow food if he works for two months. Everyone can grow his whole year's foodstuff. There is so much land. But no, they'll not grow food. They will grow hammer, manufacturing it. You see? Tire tube, then atom bomb, then this and that. They are busy. They are busy fool. Actually they are fools, and they are very busy. Everyone is busy. There are so many parts in the motorcar, three thousand part, and they are busy in manufacturing three thousand parts of motor parts. So everyone is busy in producing things unwanted. But they have created a society in such a way that they have to do that.
Prabhupāda: Because you have become Vaiṣṇava, that is the...
Dr. Patel: Not... Even before that.
Prabhupāda: Unless one becomes Vaiṣṇava...
Dr. Patel: A real scientist finds God's working in every cell, every atom, every molecule.
Prabhupāda: No, no, our point is unless one has become Vaiṣṇava, he remains a fool.
Dr. Patel: That is your saying.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the statement of Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is a fool, rascal. That' s all. This is the conclusion. We are fool, undoubtedly, but we take the words of Kṛṣṇa. He is not fool.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) No, but He says, ye tu sarvāṇī karmāṇi mayi sannyasya mat-parāḥ.
Prabhupāda: The mat-parāḥ, this is mat-parāḥ. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept it. That is mat-parāḥ. Mat-parāḥ means whatever Kṛṣṇa says, accept it. That's all. That is mat-parāḥ. And if I say, "I don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, whether He was existing," that is not mat-parāḥ.
Dr. Patel: That is different.
Prabhupāda: That is different.
Dr. Patel: But Kṛṣṇa says through so many things. Kṛṣṇa says. Through every leaf, every atom...
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Patel: ...every molecule and every living cell, He says what He is.
Prabhupāda: So everyone, our...
Dr. Patel: That is what the scientists think.
Prabhupāda: Scholars, they think like that, "Kṛṣṇa is fictitious. This Bhagavad-gītā was imagined," as if Kṛṣṇa speaking and Arjuna hearing, and there was no war as Kurukṣetra. This is their reply. There was no five thousand years.
Dr. Patel: Suppose, sir, it may be like that, as they say, but this is an acme of the knowledge. That's all. Even though it may be fabricated, it is the acme.
Prabhupāda: Acme of the knowledge you are taking, but you don't believe the source of knowledge. You are so acme of the knowledge. You don't believe in the source of the knowledge, so where is knowledge? That is darkness. Tama and jyoti-two things are there. This material world is tama, darkness, because here actually there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is almost absent. And jyoti means there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That we were discussing last night. Taṭastha-śakti. Taṭastha... The jīvas, they are in the marginal position between tama and jyoti.
Prabhupāda: That is life. This artificial life is no life. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has described this modern civilization of artificial life. So he says, jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. He declares all these artificial way of life, advancement of material civilization, means advancement of influence of māyā. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. Expansion of the influence of māyā. Then? What is the result? The result is anitya saṁsāre, moho janmeiya. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyār vaibhava, tomāra bhajane badha. māyā means forgetfulness of God. This is māyā. māyā means the more you forget Kṛṣṇa, the more you are involved in māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). So māyā's business is to cover you more and more as you forget Kṛṣṇa. This is māyā's business. So therefore, expansion of māyā's influence means forgetting Kṛṣṇa. Tomāra bhajane badha. They're all hindrances only to make spiritual progress and to understand God. So what is the net result? The net result is anitya saṁsāre, moha janmeiyā. We are already attached to this material world, which is temporary. By this expansion of māyā's influence we become more attached. Attachment is already there, but we become more and more attached. In this way, jība ke karaye gadha. So he is already ass; he becomes first-class ass. That's all. (laughter) Is that all right? Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has analyzed. "He is already an ass," sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Khara means ass. "But he becomes a first-class ass." So you'll find all these rascals, materialists, they are all first-class asses, that's all. Every day you find they are discovering new theory, new theory: "Atom, electron, this tron, that tron." Not the jīvātmā. They remain the same ass, first-class ass, scientific ass. They are finding out so many atoms, electrons, this tron, that tron, not that one ten-thousandth part of God. That they cannot find. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīva-bhāgo sa vijñeyaḥ (CC Madhya 19.140). They have not come to that point, that one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair is the jīva, living entity. They have not come to that, neither they'll be able to come to that, because they remain ass, more and more ass, first-class ass, O.K. ass and then going on, the quality of ass.
Dr. Patel: When the atom bomb was exploded, Sir Rutherford of England said that "This is nothing but the mental process. Real process somewhere else." He has spoke these words.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Highest scientist.
Prabhupāda: They are finding out a small particle, particle, particle, still going on. You were reading me the other day? So...
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Small particle than the...
Prabhupāda: But the real particle they have not found. Real particle is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. That they have not found.
Brahmānanda: They find these particles in their machines called atom-smashers. They take atoms and they smash them together...
Prabhupāda: But that measure means still they are measuring material. Apareyam. These are all aparā. They cannot come to that. Itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. There is another atom. That, these rascals, they do not know, neither they'll be able to come out. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, apareyam: "These are all material." Itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām: "There is another atom." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. And where is that science? Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām: And that atom, jīva-bhutaḥ, that is living entity. That, the rascals, they do not know. They're still hovering upon material particles.
Dr. Patel: They have tried to know, sir.
Prabhupāda: This kind of will not help them. No, no. That is the... That is there. They'll not know. Panthās tu koṭi-śatavatsara-sampragamyo vāyor athāpi manaso muni-puṅgavānām, so 'pyasti yat-prapada-sīmny avicintya tattve. Still it will remain inconceivable. These rascals, they do not know that. You have to simply hear from Kṛṣṇa that there is another atom, apareyam. These are inferior. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. There is another atom. What is that? That is jīva-bhūtaḥ. You have to take this knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, not by searching out. How you can find out one ten-thousandth part of it? It is not possible. You have no machine, no source of knowledge.
Brahmānanda: These particles that they have just recently found, the life-span is incredibly small, one-millionth of a trillionth of a second.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: But that's so difficult to do, you know. There are so many things get in the way.
Prabhupāda: So you can... Difficult to do, you can count ever... It is very difficult to count this sand. Can you count? It is very difficult. But you can waste your time in counting. (laughter) You are rascal; you can go on: "I shall count how many." But it is not possible. So that is rascaldom. Which is not possible, that we'll get. Now it is... Everyone knows there are some particles. Now you go on counting. Don't eat. Don't sleep. Go on counting. And śāstra says, ""Even if you are able to count this, you'll not be able to know God, even if you are able." This is not possible to count, but even if you become so expert that you can count one day, still it will be acintya tattva. That is... There is a verse that even one day you become the rolled sky... The sky is so big. You can roll it just like you roll up your bedding. And even if you can, all the atoms constituted, still you'll not be possible to know, understand God.
Prabhupāda: Time is eternity, but your formation is not eternity. Your formation is temporary. Time is eternity. (aside:) Thank you. No. Time is eternity, that's a fact, but your formation... Asann api klesada asa deha. It is temporary. That's all right. You know, I know, everyone. But it will simply give you pains, although it is asat. That you do not know. Time is... Body is temporary, but so long the body is there, you have to suffer. That body may be a ant's body or Brahma's body. So as soon as you get a material body, you have to suffer and go on examining urine and stool. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...and that is good wealth. And take some urine and find out, "Here is life." That's all. They are examining very scientifically. Why don't you...? The dead man's urine, if you examine and find out some injection and give it in life. Life is gone away, soul, and they are finding out life from the urine. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) ...but it is very reasonable. They are finding out out so many atoms, particles, but in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said that all these atoms are aparā, inferior. Find out the parā, the superior atom. That is life. (Hindi question and answer) But you cannot bring in life by so-called mantras. That is not possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) (break) ...can write to these particle men that "You are finding so many, but there is another particle which is one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. Find out that. That is life. That is superior." And quote Bhagavad-gītā, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. "Another atom." Give them information at least. (break)...Kṛṣṇa's message. Simply by reading one book, Bhagavad-gita, you become learned. (break)
Brahmānanda: Scientists will say that "We cannot find this jīva particle in our atom-smasher machines."
Prabhupāda: But you are blind. Therefore you have to hear. A blind man is going forward towards the sea, so one who has got eyes, he'll say, "Don't go there." Then, if you go, go to the sea, you'll die. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Because you are blind, therefore I am giving you the information. You take it. You don't go there. You'll not find.
Dr. Patel: No, sir, but these great scientists like Huxley were all...
Prabhupāda: No....
Dr. Patel: They have realized the working of God in every atom, to tell the truth. It was so some fifty years back that the scientists did not believe in the existence and working of God, but they have much changed now.
Prabhupāda: That means they were foolish; now they are coming to be wise.
Dr. Patel: But they have died out, the previous generation. Now the new generation.
Prabhupāda: No, still there are, so many rascals.
Dr. Patel: There cannot be uniformity of...
Prabhupāda: So many rascals. One scientist came to talk with me in California. And he: "God? What is God? We have now solved everything." And you are rascal, demon.
Dr. Patel: I think many of those wise people do accept. But you have been harsh to all and none, all of them at par. But so many of them are really intelligent people who accept... Because we can't do so many things. Practically nothing we can do. Because we find out something here and there does not mean that we are perfect in knowledge. But the scientists nowadays are different than what the scientists were in those days when you were a student. And you think we are just like that. We are different today. He's a scientist. He will tell you. The scientists do see... Scientists do, does the darśana of God in every part of the science, in every cell of living cell, every atom.
Prabhupāda: No. What was the report?
Brahmānanda: Of the books?
Prabhupāda: No. The report, speak to him, that science...
Brahmānanda: The reporter? Scientist?
Prabhupāda: Scientist.
Girirāja: Oh, yes.
Dr. Patel: Few scientists may be like that. That does not mean all scientists are like that. We are here. Half a dozen of us are scientists, aren't we here?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Suppose you are a scientist, I am scientist, so if you do not believe in God, I believe in God...
Dr. Patel: How can I not believe in God?
Prabhupāda: No, no. You say some of the scientists.
Prabhupāda: So that we can understand, that he is grasping like a fool. Therefore we call them "fools, rascals." There was a newspaper interview with a so-called scientist.
Dr. Patel: The great-grandfather of modern science, Einstein, did he not believe in God? He made darśana of God everywhere. Even in explosion of atom he saw it. Even in his theory of relativity, he finally said it was wrong. "All things are relative to God." That is what he said. And I don't think there is a greater scientist than Einstein in the modern times.
Prabhupāda: There are some scientists...
Dr. Patel: If other fellows say any damn thing, that does not mean... Even though he may be a Nobel Prize winner, that does not mean that he is really a true scientist. He may be all right. He is looking through a long narrow tube in his own subject, a specialist. I have my definition about a specialist is a one who sees through long narrow tube and he got this much vision of the horizon. Such a man may be saying like this to you. I don't think we should deride that science... Scientists are trying to approach God through their own way, sir. That is what I think.
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom.
Yaśomatīnandana: Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ.
Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharai saṁstuta puruṣa paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19).
Dr. Patel: How they smuggled away the secret of atom smashing from America, these Russians?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Dr. Patel: They smuggled away the secret of atom bomb from America.
Prabhupāda: The Germans.
Dr. Patel: No, the Russians smuggled away. Germans came to America, taking that...
Prabhupāda: They understood from the Germans.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, but it is said that the German scientist ran away to America because they were afraid of Hitler. If Hitler gets the secret of atom, he would bomb out the whole world.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Hitler knew it.
Prabhupāda: That is also fact.
Dr. Patel: And one Śaṅkarācārya—I don't know which—who was the professor in one of the colleges of Madras, he went and met Professor Einstein and talked about... And then he gave out some, one śloka of two lines which actually depicted how atoms could be smashed. That is in our sciences.
Indian man (2): This is fact?
Dr. Patel: Yes, it's a fact. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (break) ...ago, there was one Mr. Badhuri in Benares. He was a great astrologer. So he told me that from Benares the Germans have taken three books: one is Akāśa-patola, one is Kapota-vahi and his Khapoda-vahi. Khapoda-vahi, this airplane. Kha means akasa. And there is another science, kapota-vahi, to carry man by the pigeons. That is not yet displayed. Kapota-vahi. And there is another, Akasa-patola. Any, any, even your chairs you sit down; by mantra it will go on.
| Page Title: | Atom (Conversations 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 06 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=86, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 86 |