So the Lord says that kāmān sarvān pārtha mano-gatān. The mental speculation, so long we are on the platform of mental speculation, we should understand that we are on the material plane, because mind is material. Mind is not spiritual. So mano-gatān. The special word is used here, mano-gatān. Whatever we create in our mind, that is material, all creations. Mind is the leader of the senses. So the activities of the mind—thinking, feeling and willing—are expressed through our senses. And these sensual activities are known as our living condition. Therefore the Lord says, "When one shall be free from mental speculation, then he's to be understood that he is in the perfect stage of spiritual consciousness." Mental speculation. So by mental speculation we cannot understand what is our position. Generally, people, they indulge in mental speculation. Different philosophy of the world, they are established on the principle of mental speculation, especially in Europe, Aristotle, Schopenhauer, Kant. They're more or less... And, imitating the Western philosophers, in India also, recently, the persons who are very well known... Perhaps you know Śrī Aurobindo. He's, he's also speculated very nicely on the mental platform. Mental platform cannot give us the actual freedom or the happiness. Therefore Lord says, "One should give up all mental speculation and should be satisfied in the understanding that 'I am consciousness, and there is Supreme Consciousness, and I am subordinate to the Supreme Consciousness. Therefore let me dovetail my consciousness with the Supreme Consciousness.' " Last day also, we discussed on this point. And the point is very clearly manifested in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gītā, that Arjuna mentally speculated in the beginning that "Whether I should take up this fighting or not?" But at the ultimate issue he gave up his mental speculation and agreed with the Lord that "Yes, I shall fight."
Aristotle
Lectures
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures
So by mental speculation we cannot understand what is our position. Generally, people, they indulge in mental speculation. Different philosophy of the world, they are established on the principle of mental speculation, especially in Europe, Aristotle, Schopenhauer, Kant. They're more or less... And, imitating the Western philosophers, in India also, recently, the persons who are very well known... Perhaps you know Śrī Aurobindo. He's, he's also speculated very nicely on the mental platform. Mental platform cannot give us the actual freedom or the happiness. Therefore Lord says, "One should give up all mental speculation and should be satisfied in the understanding that 'I am consciousness, and there is Supreme Consciousness, and I am subordinate to the Supreme Consciousness.
Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures
And nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. And if you follow philosophers, so one philosopher is differing from another philosopher. Just like our Śyāmasundara has brought one book, Ideas of Philosophers, different philosophers talking differently. So how you can take the conclusion? Even Aristotle, he is talking so many things nonsense. So mental speculators, philosophers. In this way you cannot.
Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām: "Actually, the purport of religion and God is very confidential." Therefore, to understand it, one has to follow the great authorities, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Mahājana. So that mahājana, great authorities, are also mentioned, who are mahājanas.
Philosophy Discussions
Prabhupāda: Actually the main philosophy is Socrates. He is (indistinct).
Hayagrīva: Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, these have been done. Just a little, a few additions. But then there's Plotinus, Origen, and Augustine, and these were the three philosophers who shaped Christian thought or Catholic, the Church thought, Church fathers, and St. Anselm, St. Thomas Aquinas, Scotus and Eckhart, these are Christian...
Prabhupāda: So they are not philosopher; they are Christian with different point of views. So we are not going to discuss with a person he is from the stand..., deviating from the standard way and thinking in their mental speculation.
Hayagrīva: Well, one last point is that neither Socrates, Plato or Aristotle ever mentions service to God; rather, they always speak of contemplation of God's reality or the Supreme Splendor. It's always contemplation, meditation. Is this typical of the jñānī? Or... There's no mention of service.
Prabhupāda: No, this is the process of knowing God. They are partially helpful to know God as He is, but when he actually comes to know God, he sees that "He is the great and I am the small." So the business of the small is to serve the great. That is nature's way. We practically see in our daily life, because you are small you are going to serve a big factory. Otherwise you have no other way. So everyone is serving, but when he realizes that "I am serving. I am not the master," that is the position actually. Ask anybody in this world whether he is master or serving, the conclusion will be that he is serving. His natural position is to serve. So if one hasn't got a family to serve, he keeps a dozen of dog to serve.
Hayagrīva: ...quotations on Aristotle. Aristotle believes that God expresses Himself through matter, although he also believes that God is transcendent and separate from the universe.
Prabhupāda: He believes some way and other believes some way, so which is..., which one is correct?
Hayagrīva: He does not follow Plato's dualism of the "here" and the "there." Plato made a sharp distinction between the material universe and the spiritual universe, but Aristotle believes there is no sharp distinction because God expresses Himself in matter. Since matter is simply one of God's energies, the finite reflects the infinite.
Prabhupāda: These Western philosophers, mostly they are contemplating about the sunshine in darkness. But that is not the way of understanding the sun. Best thing is to come in the sunshine, see yourself, see the sunshine, see the sun. There is (indistinct).
Hayagrīva: Here's another point. Aristotle says that it is not material objects that are trying to realize God, like as Plato says, but God realizing Himself through material objects. God does this in a variegated way and in an infinite way. So God realizes the potentiality of a rose or of a man by creating a rose, a flower, a man that is perceivable by the material senses. So the world is more real to Aristotle than it is to Plato.
Hayagrīva: Now Aristotle would say that the flower is real because it has its basis in the ultimate reality, God.
Prabhupāda: That..., how God can be not in knowledge? He is full in knowledge. That is God.
Hayagrīva: Plato would say that the flower is a shadow of reality, a perverted reflection of reality. So which point of view would be...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is... When the flower is in the material world..., material world is perverted reflection of the spiritual world. That's a fact. We have got experience that material things are created, but in the spiritual world things are not created; they are already there, everlasting. So it appears Aristotle has no knowledge of the spiritual world.
Hayagrīva: Aristotle defines God as pure form and pure act and purely nonmaterial. He is absolute spirit and is the unmoved mover.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is absolute spirit, there is no doubt upon it, but why He should come to know Himself through material world? That is defective.
Hayagrīva: Aristotle's God contemplates Himself. He does not have any knowledge of the world...
Prabhupāda: Who?
Hayagrīva: ...as such.
Hayagrīva: Aristotle sees the love going one way. He says that God is loved by everything in the universe and that He attracts all objects in the universe because everything is striving toward Him and longing for Him.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: But there is no mention of God as a person, although he says He's pure form. Is this an imagined form like the Māyāvādīs may imagine a form?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has got the tilt of Māyāvāda. That is his imperfect knowledge of God. Because he does not receive knowledge from God, he speculates; therefore his knowledge is imperfect.
Hayagrīva: Now for both Plato and Aristotle, God is known by reason, not by revelation or by religious experience, not by mystical experience...
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. You cannot... God is unlimited. You have got limited power to see or to smell or to touch. You have got all limited, and God is unlimited. So you cannot understand God by your limited power of sensual activities. Therefore God is revelation. We say that ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (CC Madhya 17.136). You cannot understand by speculating your senses. That is not possible. When you engage yourself in His service, then He reveals. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). God says that "I am not exposed to everyone. I am covered by the yoga-māyā." That is fact. So unless God reveals Himself... So God not only reveals, He appears, and great authorities, they are searching. Just like Kṛṣṇa appeared, and great authorities like Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Śukadeva Gosvāmī and then the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu-big, big stalwart scholars and transcendentalists—they accepted Kṛṣṇa. All the śāstras accept Kṛṣṇa.
Hayagrīva: There is a great deal of emphasis in Aristotle on reason. He says happiness depends on man's acting in a rational way. The rational way is the virtuous way. The virtuous way is the way of intellectual insight. There is a suggestion of sense control but no bhakti. So is it possible to obtain happiness simply by controlling the senses by the mind?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the process of becoming a human being. The lower beings, animals, they do not know this process. Just like they are busy only for sense gratification-eating, sleeping, mating and defense, their only business. But a human being can be engaged by proper guidance in contemplation. Just like Aristotle is contemplating or Plato is con..., this is human being's business. But such contemplation should be guided by authorities. Otherwise one can contemplate with his limited senses for many, many millions of years, it will be impossible to understand what is God.
Hayagrīva: In his Ethics, Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle writes, "Moral excellence is concerned with pleasure and pain. It is pleasure that makes us do base or ignoble action, and pain that prevents us from doing noble actions. For that reason," as Plato says, "men must be brought up from childhood to feel pleasure and pain at the proper things, for this is correct education." So how does this correspond to the Vedic view of education?
Prabhupāda: Vedic view of education is, actually there is no pleasure in this material world, because we may arrange for all pleasure artificially in the material world, but all of sudden one has to die. So where is the pleasure? If you make arrangement of all pleasure and all of a sudden death comes upon you, then where is pleasure? So first of all they must, if they are intelligent, they must make arrangement that they will be able to enjoy the pleasures they have created. Otherwise, where is pleasure? It is disappointment.
Hayagrīva: One last statement from Aristotle. He states, in his Politics, he says, "The beauty of the body is seen, whereas the beauty of the soul is not seen." Is this true?
Prabhupāda: Beauty of the soul is real beauty, and beauty of the body is superficial. Not every body is beautiful. There are so many bodies very ugly, and there are so many bodies very beautiful. So the material sense, this ugliness and beautifulness, they are all artificial. But the beauty of the soul is real; that is not artificial. So unless we see the beauty of the Supersoul, Kṛṣṇa, we have no idea what is actually beauty. Therefore devotees, they want to see the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, not any artificial beauty of this material world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The example can be given that the quail, it is called kokil, it is very black, just like crow. But when you vibrates the voice, it is so beautiful that people are attracted. So the beauty of the body is secondary. The beauty of the soul is primary. So just like a mūḍha, a illiterate man, nicely dressed—he is beautiful so long he does not speak. And as soon as he speaks, we can understand what is his position. So dhavaca so vate mūḍha yavad kiñcid na vasa (?). A ugly, illiterate rascal, fool, is beautiful so long he does not speak, and as soon as he speaks we can understand what is his position. So this external beauty is no beauty. If an ugly man, if he speaks very nicely, he will attract so many people, and if a beautiful man, if he speaks nonsense, nobody cares for him. So real attraction is different and artificial is different.
Hayagrīva: I think that concludes Aristotle. (end)
Hayagrīva: This is Plotinus. Plotinus lived from 204-269 A.D. He was not Christian. He took... He's what's called a neo-Platonist, a new Platonist. Much of his philosophy comes from Plato. But he believed in the theory of emanation, that the soul emanates from the intelligence, what Aristotle called the nous, or the intelligence, and the intelligence emanates from the One, what he calls the One, who is omnipresent, transcendental, the cause of all multiplicities, the Lord of all. So there's a hierarchy in Plotinus of the One, the intelligence, and the individual souls.
Prabhupāda: The One is Vedic conception, ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti, Supreme Truth, Absolute Truth, advaya-jñāna. So this is our philosophy, that these living entities, soul, they are of the same quality as the one Supreme, but they are fragmental parts, emanation from Him.
Prabhupāda: We don't find, even the biggest mountain cannot create anything, but when the spirit soul or the human being takes a stone, he can give a form to the stone. But the mountain, although it is very big, it cannot give any particular form to the stone. It remains stone.
Hayagrīva: Unlike Plato and Aristotle, Aquinas believed that God created the universe out of nothing and He...
Prabhupāda: No.
Hayagrīva: He created the universe out of nothing.
Prabhupāda: No. The universe is created by God. How you can say "out of nothing"? God is there. So before creation of the universe God was there, so you cannot say that the universe was created out of nothing.
Conversations and Morning Walks
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Jesuit: 'Cause as I would understand it, the soul of the man, of any man, is what we would call a spiritual soul, an immortal soul, and the soul of the animal is a principle of life, what the Greeks would call savvy(?), Aristotle would call psyche. But it is not of an immortal soul, therefore the man has higher value than the animal, the dog, something like that.
Prabhupāda: No. What do you think? Just like a child, as a child's father, the child has got different soul and the father has got different soul?
Jesuit: They've got different souls but they're both immortal, spiritual souls.
Prabhupāda: Who is important, the child or the father?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes, that is stated in the...
Jesuit: There's no form of passivity in God, there's no form of change in God, there's no, no limitations of any sort. Matter has limitations. The soul is immortal because it has no principle of corruption in it. Aristotle would say that matter has parts, outside parts, and so it can, it has in itself the power of dissolving and it would break up, corrupts. The soul never does.
Prabhupāda: We have got this material body and spiritual soul. That is in this material condition there is distinction between the spirit and matter. As soon as the spirit goes from this material body, it has no value.
Jesuit: No life, true.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is in his name, Pasteur. He is a famous scientist. He was a chemist and biochemist, and he did this experiment in the 1860s. Now the flask... This experiment is called a "swan-neck" experiment because the shape of the neck of the flask looks like the neck of a swan. So it is the famous "swan-neck experiment." Now, at that time, it was quite amazing that even the so-called famous Greek philosophers like Aristotle, Plato and all these philosophers, even they believed that life actually comes from matter. They had all complete materialistic view of life, completely on the bodily concept. Now, at that time...
Prabhupāda: But Socrates did not believe like that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Socrates also believed in material concept.
Correspondence
1947 to 1965 Correspondence
The Western philosophers mostly of the Sankhya school have less acquaintance with the Vedanta Darsana and philosophers like Kant, Mill, Aristotle or Schopenhauer etc all belong to either of the above five Darsanas except Vedanta because limited human thinking power cannot go beyond that stage. But Vedanta Darsana is far beyond the limited mental speculation of the human brain conditioned by material nature. Unfortunately Sankara who belonged to the Mayavada school made a misinterpretation of the Vedanta for his own purpose to convert the Buddhists in India.
1971 Correspondence
That will be very much convincing. I think if you read our books thoroughly you will get a supply of material to answer all the questions. Now I am preparing one book answering all types of philosophical arguments. Syamasundara every morning is putting questions from different angles of vision beginning from Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, etc. and we are trying to answer. We shall discuss also Marx philosophy of communism. It will require some time but I wish that all our preachers should be well versed with all philosophical ideas and after studying all philosophical points of view we will put Krishna Conscious philosophy on the top.
1972 Correspondence
Now in our philosophy classes, each day I am discussing one of your western philosophies and so far we have discussed many, many philosophers like Aristotle, Kant, Hegel, Marx, like that, and now we are discussing Darwin and other scientists from your western countries. Because they have missed the central point that we are not the controllers of nature, rather we are controlled by nature, and because they do not see that there is a Supreme Controller who is controlling even the nature, therefore their vast research and display of intelligence is only so much waste of time. It is just like a child. A child may play with the imitation of another child and the child will hold the doll and play with it as if it is real.
| Page Title: | Aristotle |
| Compiler: | MadhuGopaldas, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 23 of Nov, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=17, Con=3, Let=3 |
| No. of Quotes: | 23 |