Prabhupāda: That Chaganlal this, I pay him extra eighty-five thousand. That is also black. No more white. So the black money was paid in this way, that the money was counted and it was put in a handbag, and it was locked by him. So the key was with him, and the bag was with me. As soon as court accepted the agreement, then I handed over, "Take this bag." Then again this Ratna Parik, he first of all proposed twenty thousand to sell that house. Then when I went there, he knew that he's settling at any cost, he said, "Now that twenty thousand was cost formerly. Now things have gone very high, I cannot sell." So he knows that we are eager to purchase. Then I said, "Then what do you want to do?" "Now I want thirty thousand." "All right, yes. Take it." I did not argue. In this way I settled up. And our Girirāja's father appreciated that "It is better a bad settlement than to prolong the case." So I took this policy. It is bad settlement, from twenty thousand to thirty thousand. But settled out. "I give you 85,000 black." But one thing I gain—that by cancelling the agreement, their proposal was that increase the price, twenty lakhs from fourteen lakhs. That was the arrangement between the attorneys. They cancelled the agreement and take twenty lakhs from him, and the balance should be divided by..., amongst us. That was the agreement. So that addition of twenty lakhs I satisfied Mrs. Nair by fourteen lakhs fifty thousand.
Argue (Conversations 1974 - 1975)
Expressions researched:
"argue"
|"argued"
|"arguer"
|"argues"
|"arguing"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Gurukṛpā: Then they argue that you also want to, you desire to serve Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, therefore I say desirelessness means to desire for Kṛṣṇa. That is desirelessness. Even if you... We are not after mukti. We, we can go to the hell to serve Kṛṣṇa.
Gurukṛpā: Mama janmani janmanīśvare...
Prabhupāda: Ah! Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahai... (Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4). That is... There is no question of desirelessness. We desire for Kṛṣṇa. That is desirelessness. Just like a diseased man, if he desires for healthy life, is that bad thing? To desire for further disease, that is desire. That is bad. Therefore I say, you cannot give up desire. That is not possible. You have to purify your desires. But when you desire for Kṛṣṇa, that is desirelessness. To become free from disease, that does not mean you have to stop eating. In the diseased condition, you are eating. As soon as you want to desire, that "Let me, give me this nice food," but you cannot eat on your diseased condition. It will be tasteless. You simply desire, but you cannot enjoy. But same you, man, when the disease is gone, you enjoy that same food very nicely. When you are free from disease, you just ask for rasagullā. You'll taste it. But when you are diseased, the same rasagullā will not be tasteful. That is the condition. The desire which gives you happiness, that is wanted. The desire which gives you distress, that is not wanted.
Bali Mardana: Kīrtana and prasādam.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bali Mardana: And then when you start to talk, they become fidgety. (laughter)
Sudāmā: Or they want to argue.
Prabhupāda: Just like for children, you give them prasādam, all will gather together. You see? And if you talk before them philosophy, what they will understand? (japa) (break)
Bali Mardana: ...Rajneesh. I think he's just doing exercises.
Prabhupāda: Varieties of madmen. Keśava tuyā jagata vicitra (?): "O My Lord Keśava, Your creation is full of varieties." (sound of man shouting in the background) The same Rajneesh process?
Bali Mardana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...Girirāja?
Bali Mardana: Well, ah, Tamāla is going (indistinct) (break)
Prabhupāda: The vast ocean, how looks beautiful. There is God's creation.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bali Mardana: Many of his followers were disappointed 'cause they expected him to show some miracles.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He will be rejected after a few years. That's all. Just like Maharishi.
Bali Mardana: Maharishi.
Satsvarūpa: I told one professor that... He was arguing in favor of Guru Maharaji. I said, "He's not mentioned in the scriptures," and he says, "Yes, in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says whenever there's a time of irreligion then He comes. So this is a time certainly of irreligion," he said. So that's one evidence, he said, in his favor.
Prabhupāda: So what he has done about religion?
Satsvarūpa: He hasn't done anything.
Prabhupāda: Then?
Nitāi: Well, we can see that he hasn't done anything.
Prabhupāda: Heḥ?
Nitāi: We can see that he hasn't done anything; others would say that "Oh, he's got a movement just like you."
Prabhupāda: No, it is not my movement; it is old. I don't say it is my movement. Neither I say that I am God. I am simply speaking of the established movement. Now, my movement is that Kṛṣṇa is God. So Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7), "There is no more superior authority than Me," but is it a fact that this rascal is the supreme authority?
Prabhupāda: If you have no money, then you cannot get justice, because he's claiming it is right claim, but if he had no fifteen thousand, then he could not claim it. Fifteen thousand is there, then (indistinct), so on , so on. So anyone who has no money, he cannot get justice in Kali-yuga. (Hindi)
Guest (1): A lot of that fifteen thousand is exempted in some cases, but even then you have to figure out some (indistinct) and remain in the, I mean present yourself in the court in the mood to argue and talk and all that things. So naturally if you don't have even that much, you have to forego (indistinct). What you're saying is hundred percent true. Yes. It's like that.
Prabhupāda: And nowadays bribe also.
Guest: Yeah. This is a must.
Prabhupāda: Fourth-class, śūdra (indistinct), bribe.
Dr. Patel: I thought all these things intoxicants, are universal. Not only Indians.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. In the...
Dr. Patel: Even, even, even, it...
Prabhupāda: No, no, in...
Dr. Patel: It was inculcated into the civilization of China.
Prabhupāda: No, no. This I know definitely. The hippies, the hippies came to India. The hippies... (Dr. Patel and the Indian men argue in background)
Dr. Patel: All these... No, no, no! These are all come from America, sir. If you say like that, I am not going back, sir, day!
Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. The gañjā, gañjā was not in America.
Dr. Patel: That, that is not! But...
Prabhupāda: That I am speaking. Unless they... (everyone yelling at once)
Dr. Patel: He says that LSD has been invented in India.
Prabhupāda: So everyone knows that is a stone statue. But we are so fool that we are worshiping a stone statue? Therefore this is offense. Arcye śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara... Similarly guru. Although he's working, moving just like ordinary human being, one should not consider that he's ordinary human being. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ.
Dr. Patel: That is how the guru can be accepted by...
Prabhupāda: Everyone knows that "Here is a stone statue." Then so many hundred and thousands of people are coming to worship that stone statue? Somebody can argue. The atheist will argue. And when... So... We have got millions of temples. Especially in South India and Jagannātha Purī and many where. So are they going, spending so much money to worship a statue? That is forbidden. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Guru should not be considered in that way. If he's actually guru.
Dr. Patel: Guru, guru's śakti on his disciples comes from...
Prabhupāda: The same.
Dr. Patel: ...either way. Where the śiṣya draws his power and guru gives it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but if he has no power, how he can give?
Dr. Patel: But... That is what I say. So we have to take guru as God.
Prabhupāda: So therefore guru as God, not distinction that guru is so much God, and he is so much God.
Dr. Patel: I don't say distinction. I...
Prabhupāda: No, you said that distinction of body, distinction...
Dr. Patel: I did not say that. You have to understood it differently.
Prabhupāda: No, no. I am not. It is the guru principle we are talking. That is about guru.
Jayādvaita: Why did He want Arjuna to work?
Prabhupāda: Just to show example, that "Don't sit idly, rascal. Work." Kṛṣṇa has already done, but you must work. This is the example.
Jayādvaita: People will argue that "Why should we work? If we can make an arrangement for being idle..."
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jayādvaita: People argue that "If we can make an arrangement to be idle, then it's nice. We've worked so hard. Now we can be idle. That's nice."
Prabhupāda: Then, that, if you become idle, you'll be diseased. You'll have dysentery. That's all. That will not help you. You'll have to suffer. That, that, that stage has already come. Because so many rascals are idle, now there is so many things want. So you'll suffer. If you don't work, then you'll suffer. (end)
Prabhupāda: Achieved. Oh.
Guest: And uh, then he started to say, "Well if they believe in an external God," or something like that, "then it is heretical." I says, "But nevertheless," I says, "Uh, like in the writings of, say, Meister Eckhart or the different mystics, they all seem to describe their experience in pretty much similar terms." So I said, I asked him, "Does this mean that the experience is different or not?" So then he argued, he finally says.... Well, he didn't say it directly, but what he said is that if, if you want to get the experience of touching something to find out what hot is, he says you may have different motive. Like some people may do it because it's pretty, some out of curiosity or different motive. In other words, he admitted that the experience finally was the same, even though the approach was different.
Prabhupāda: If the approach is different, suppose in the approach is to fire, the approach may be different, but heat or light is there. So why do they approach fire? But if you are approaching something else, how the same experience is there?
Guest: Well...
Prabhupāda: Say we approach fire, then approach may be a different way, but the goal, it is fire, you will experience heat and light.
Prabhupāda: But you should talk from the platform of Buddha. We know the secrecy. Our, our understanding of Buddha, that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But the Buddhists, they do not believe.
Guest: No, they've rejected the Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we say.
Guest: But I'm not trying to, uh, to set up, to argue sect against sect.
Prabhupāda: That's not the question. It's a question of philosophy. Here we just say, we know, just like we, we are devotee of Lord Buddha, keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. We glorify Lord Buddha because we know what is Buddha, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. So we know perfectly that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, but those who are cheated by Buddha, from their point of view I want to know what is their perspective.
Guest: Now how, how, how, why would Buddha want to cheat people?
Prabhupāda: Yes, cheated because they did not believe in God. So, but he is God, he is God; therefore he says, "What I say, you believe." That means he is cheating them.
Prabhupāda: And I have no Indians to manage these big, big temples. Neither they are trained up. Trained up. I have trained up these American boys. They are doing nicely. But they cannot. They have taken a brahmacārī dress, and they will come with pant. And they will argue, "Why? What is the wrong there? Why should I give up pant? Why shall I have tilaka? Why shall I give up smoking?" Why, why... They will put so many "whys" that my life will be spoiled. Because they have advanced. So many rascals swamis have told them, "Yes..."
Guest: But the same principle, as you say, that if we do anything, they may send our people out of India.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Guest: As you rightly say, that if we do anything, actively, then they may send your boys going out of India, foreigners. Americans.
Yaśomatīnandana: They will kick us.
Guest: "Yes. Throw them out." They will argue on that ground and they will say that "You are not required. You are nuisance," or whatever the reasons.
Prabhupāda: Any, no reason. No reason. No reason. "We don't want you."
Prabhupāda: If you say the furniture is hotel, that means less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: Ah, but then you take out the furniture, hotel will not be there.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot say the furniture is the hotel.
Dr. Patel: I am arguing like a Buddha.
Prabhupāda: You cannot say that.
Dr. Patel: But then, that is also an argument.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense argument. "Hotel is furniture."
Dr. Patel: Yes, it is.
Devotee: Buddha purposely made those... (break)
Prabhupāda: You cannot say "Everything is hotel." "The furniture is hotel, the man is hotel, the food is hotel." What is this? There must be varieties.
Dr. Patel: So you have gone on the top of the tree. We are trying to give him the root.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) But you do not know how the root is manifested. Therefore you are less intelligent.
Prabhupāda: Then you'll never understand. Yes, you'll never understand.
Bhāgavata: Like you were saying last night, Prabhupāda... (break)
Prabhupāda: Māyāvādam asac-chāstraṁ pracchannaṁ bauddham ucyate, pracchannaṁ bauddham ucyate.
Dr. Patel: You call pracchanna, but I am open Buddha now, today, for the sake of argument. Let me understand it. There are various ways you can argue about the thing. God cannot be approached by argument...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Your difficulty is you are not submissive. Therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: No, I am, I am actually submissive.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no, no.
Dr. Patel: But I want to... I cannot submit without understanding.
Prabhupāda: But you... Because you...
Dr. Patel: That is what I want...
Prabhupāda: But you should not... Because you do not submit, therefore you do not understand.
Guest (4) (Indian man): To answer the scripture... (break)
Prabhupāda: No, no. Vedic system is...
Guest (3): You know, all these... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...Arjuna. In the beginning he was arguing, but when he saw it is useless, he said, śādhi māṁ prapannam. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). That is required.
Guest (3): Guru expects from you that thing... (break)
Prabhupāda: Actually, it is a process, a guru should not instruct anybody who is not a disciple.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupāda: Because he's not submissive, it is useless waste of time. That is... That is the... Guru should not speak to anyone...
Dr. Patel: Therefore you are speaking to me. So I am... (break)
Prabhupāda: According to our Vaiṣṇava principles, ādau gurvāśrayam, the first business is to accept a spiritual master. Sad-dharma-pṛcchā. Then one has to inquire about sad-dharma. Sādhu-mārgānugamanam. One should follow the footprints of the previous ācāryas. This is the process, one after another. So first thing is ādau gurvāśrayam, one has to accept a guru. So you may, you should, I mean to say, check whether he's guru or not. That is allowed. It is said for one year the śiṣya and the guru should meet together...
Dr. Patel: And don't talk.
Prabhupāda: A learned gentleman, that is another thing, yes. And we are preaching. We must talk on the point of philosophy. That is another thing.
Dr. Patel: So we have made up now. Don't worry. (break)
Guest (3): You cannot argue what he says.
Dr. Patel: No... That is the way. You see, I am trying to... (break)
Prabhupāda: That is nice.
Dr. Patel: Sometimes you say nice, and sometimes you also fire me. So what this, what I am to understand about our relationship?
Prabhupāda: You should be fired always. (laughter) But if I do not say sometimes nice, then it will be dangerous.
Prabhupāda: But home means, that is from a woman.
Dr. Patel: But there, there, in the home, woman is there...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You cannot stop...
Dr. Patel: You are disagre... I can argue that way. Then you get annoyed to me. Then you call me mūḍha.
Prabhupāda: No, no, why you, why one should hate so much woman?
Dr. Patel: We don't hate. We want to protect you from sex.
Prabhupāda: That is... Not to, not to see face, not to...
Dr. Patel: Because woman is the embodiment.
Prabhupāda: You should be trained up.
Prabhupāda: Because I am always surrounded by young girls.
Dr. Patel: No, no, that is... Swami Nārāyaṇa sitting with the women but the sādhus...
Prabhupāda: Then why you said...? Don't you see...?
Dr. Patel: Listen, you are arguing in such a way that there will be a flash between us two.
Prabhupāda: No, no. People should be trained up in such a way that in spite of (indistinct) you should not be agitated. That is, that is.
Guest (1): Our religion... (break) and that these boys... (break)
Dr. Patel: Sādhus, not sannyāsīs. (break)
Prabhupāda: In European countries, in European countries, if you restrict in that way, that will be fanaticism.
Guest (1): That is what I am telling you. It should not be done immediately like that. (break) ...it must be trained, and it will take a long time.
Prabhupāda: Why Europe? Nowadays, here also. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Mūrkhasya latoṣadhiḥ. It is very... (break) ...from this movement.
Dr. Patel: I have not read that letter.
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Patel: Which way it has come?
Prabhupāda: (break) ...barking, what is the use of arguing with him?
Dr. Patel: No, we have not read. I don't know how it came to our...
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...talking of this letter of commissioner.
Dr. Patel: Oh, commissioner. (break)
Prabhupāda: They, because today's Rāma Naumi, they're taking bath?
Dr. Patel: Yes, they are taking bath. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...says that "Why don't you go to the forest?"
Dr. Patel: But that somebody must have told you.
Prabhupāda: No, no. One of the important men. What is the name of that...?
Girirāja: Yogendrabhai.
Prabhupāda: Devakī ānandam.
Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇaṁ vande jagat guru.
Prabhupāda: Yaṁ brahma-varuṇendra-rudraḥ stunvanti divyaiḥ stavaiḥ. Sometimes the impersonalists argue, "If nobody has seen Him, then where is His form?" But here is. Brahmā, yaṁ brahma. Here is Brahmā praying. So why you say nobody has seen? Brahmā has seen. Therefore he is offering.
Dr. Patel: Bolo asitagirā samaṁsyāt. He'll recite half a dozen.
Prabhupāda: That's right. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Child: (chants Sanskrit verses.)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Child: (chants more verses)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: He wants to study Sanskrit from now, when I read all those books. But his father has put him directly in English medium. It becomes very difficult. I have to take him out and now he can read Sanskrit. You can read.
Prabhupāda: English medium, Sanskrit.
Pañcadraviḍa: But if the man says, "I am Muslim; how you can say I am disobedient to the laws of God? I am following my own religion?"
Prabhupāda: No, no, we shall come to the Muslims next. First of all let us talk with the Christians.
Satsvarūpa: We are always arguing with them. They say they are following. They are allowed to kill animals.
Pañcadraviḍa: "I am accepting Christ. Therefore I am saved. I am following closely Christianity."
Prabhupāda: No, no. If you love God, then why you are disobeying His order. That is my charge, first thing. God says, "Thou shalt not kill," but why you are killing? This is the charge I give to the Christians.
Satsvarūpa: Yes, you always do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There they are captured.
Pañcadraviḍa: But everybody is killing.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)
Pañcadraviḍa: ...vegetables are also alive.
Prabhupāda: No, everyone... We are not talking of everyone. We are talking of you. You love God. So why you are killing? No, killing... There is open declaration, "Thou shall not kill." So you are deliberately disobeying. Then where is the love?
Prabhupāda: No, everyone... We are not talking of everyone. We are talking of you. You love God. So why you are killing? No, killing... There is open declaration, "Thou shall not kill." So you are deliberately disobeying. Then where is the love?
Pañcadraviḍa: "But even if I become vegetarian, still, I will..."
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not questioned. God says that you shall not kill. But you are killing. Where is your love? You cannot argue with God. Then you do not love. You cannot put your argument, logic, "What God has said I must do." That is not...
Pañcadraviḍa: "But God did not mean us not to eat. We must eat."
Prabhupāda: God did not... That means you have to eat only meat. You have nothing to eat?
Pañcadraviḍa: But if I eat a plant, it is also killing.
Prabhupāda: That is your argument. But God says that "Thou shalt not kill." You cannot argue. This is the first theory... Suppose if I say something to you, order, you cannot argue. That is not obedience. Obedience means without argument accepted. That is obedience. That is love.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good preaching. But when there is argument, when somebody says, you should be prepared to argue with them. It stopped? We shall go another round?
Akṣayānanda: I think it has stopped.
Satsvarūpa: No rain.
Pañcadraviḍa: (break) ...dressed in shiny saffron. He is dressed in black. He looked like nescience and you look like the sunshine, standing next to him. He is wearing all this black with a little bit of red trimming on it, looked like nightime. (break) ...I met a Christian, and he said "You have got your guru and you are following him. He teaches you by his example. We have got our pope. He is our example of what Christianity is. He is the head of Christian order, and he himself is eating meat. Now how you can say...?"
Prabhupāda: Then how he can be pope?
Pañcadraviḍa: "But how you can say he is not the best Christian? He is the head of all the Christians."
Prabhupāda: But that means you are foolish and pope is also foolish. If he does not follow the orders of Jesus Christ, then how he becomes a pope? Therefore you are foolish. You have elected some foolish, another foolish man as your pope. That should be the right answer, that "If he does not follow Christ, how he becomes pope?"
Pañcadraviḍa: He is not killing.
Pañcadraviḍa: ...Christians, they were arguing with me they said, "God has given us the pig to eat."
Prabhupāda: It is said in the Bible?
Pañcadraviḍa: No.
Prabhupāda: Then where is this nonsense? How he can say? Actually, Christians cannot eat any meat because the word is "Thou shalt not kill." (break)
Pañcadraviḍa: Christ Himself was distributing fish, to the hungry, to the poor. He gave out so much fish.
Prabhupāda: That was not killing fish. That is my support.
Pañcadraviḍa: We do not kill the fish either. We simply purchase it in the supermarket.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Directly, fish, as soon as taken from the water, he dies. And Christ... Then how can you support Christ that if he has done killing business himself and he instructs others not to kill?
Akṣayānanda: Does that mean you are calling Jesus Christ a hypocrite?
Prabhupāda: Hypocrite.
Prabhupāda: What is that, salt? Salt example was... Explain.
Yogeśvara: What was your point?
O'Grady: I'm saying its difficult to argue about one kind of situation in terms of another kind of situation when the nature of the problem or the nature of the result is different.
Prabhupāda: No, the kinds or varieties may remain, but sometimes the varieties help. Just like if you bring varieties of flower in a vase, it becomes very beautiful, but they are all flowers. So you have to become flowers. So even in varieties there is unity of beauty.
O'Grady: Yes, I accept that, of course.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is... (break)
Atreya Ṛṣi: ...there's a great different between that and what we know today as Christians. They're designations. We are not talking...
Prabhupāda: That is another point. The thing is that Christ came to preach the message of God. So therefore, to become actually Christ conscious means God conscious.
Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, in the Kṛṣṇa Book, Kṛṣṇa Himself argues that you don't need... He argues at the time of the Indra sacrifice that you don't need yajña. The rain will come anyway. That's what they say nowadays.
Prabhupāda: That was to irritate Indra. (laughter)
Satsvarūpa: But they take that argument of His. Where is the proof that the rains are controlled by God?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa says the rain will come, but Kṛṣṇa never says that without rain you can cultivate. So Kṛṣṇa's purpose was because I am the Supreme Lord, Indra will supply, his father will supply." So that is another thing. Kṛṣṇa never said that "Without rain, you can cultivate." Never said.
Yogeśvara: Well, what if they argue that "Whether we perform yajña or not, these rains will go on. They are coming now and we are not performing yajña."
Prabhupāda: "Because I will order. You are already performing yajña, worshiping Me, loving Me." That is Kṛṣṇa's purpose. Tasmiṁs tuṣṭe jagat tuṣṭa. If you satisfy Kṛṣṇa, Indra's father will be satisfied. Just like if you water on the root of the tree, all the Indras, as branches and leaves and foliage, they will be satisfied. That is the purpose. Kṛṣṇa wanted to impress this that "You simply love Me, and everything will be supplied."
Prabhupāda: You understand that?
C. Hennis: Yes. Well, of course it's only by a long term of general program of cultural improvement that you can hope to overcome that kind of problem. On the other hand, it would be, I think, wrong to argue from that experience that the provision of welfare benefits to all people who are destitute should be stopped, you see. It is true that...
Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to say that.
C. Hennis: It's true these are abused, but the fact that a good thing is abused doesn't turn it into a bad thing.
Prabhupāda: No that is not the point. Point is that everyone should be guided by the brain. Therefore the brain must be maintained. That is our point.
Prabhupāda: He has no other qualification, this Guru Maharaja. People have become so lower in intelligence that they are dealing with him. You see? They are not even equal to our shoes. You should not utter his name. But Lord Jesus Christ's position is different. We cannot compare with this rascal. He's recognized God's man, Jesus Christ. And what is this rascal?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: One of the Ten Commandments, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that one should not take the name of God in vain. And they argue that when we chant the holy name, they say, "You are chanting, chanting, chanting all the time, but this is taking the name in vain."
Prabhupāda: Why vain? Don't you find difference between you and me? Why it is vain? Don't you find what is the difference between you and me? So I... Do you think that I am a foolish man, that I am chanting, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa" without any profit? So you can think because you are a rascal, but I know my business.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: You should reply like that.
Bhagavān: Last night, when you gave him the example that the father is beyond the experience of the child...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: At that point, he stopped arguing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And mother is the only evidence. That's all. Similarly, acintyaḥ khalu ye bhava na tas tarkeṇa yojayet (?). Śāstra says that "What is beyond your experience, you don't argue on that point." You go to the authority and take it. Why you should you argue? It is beyond your experience. Therefore you must find out who can give you the experience. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). But don't stop there, that "It is beyond my experience; therefore I should not have experience." This is foolishness. If it is beyond your experience, then go to a person who has got experience and take from him. Suppose if I am in this park. I do not know which way to go. It is beyond my experience. Then I ask one gentleman, "Where shall I go?" He'll say, "Please go this way." This is the way. Why should you stop and think others also, that God is beyond his experience also? Why? It may be beyond your experience, but unless you go to a person who has got actually experience, how can you get the experience? (pause)
Bhagavān: He seemed frustrated that he says he's tried, but he hasn't found. He was in India for twenty-five years.
Prabhupāda: Well, the thing is that this, actually, to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy job. Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: (BG 7.3) "Out of millions." But Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy, we are trying to understand little, little. Otherwise, it is very difficult to understand it. And if there is any understanding of God, that is in this Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya, especially in this Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya. Others, they do not know. They cannot know. Kṛṣṇa will never reveal to them. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). If you engage your tongue in His service, then God reveals to you. You cannot understand God.
Paramahaṁsa: How can one remain humble in executing his devotional service?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If he thinks himself that "I am non-entity, helpless," then he can remain. If he thinks "I can do something. I have got so much intelligence," then he cannot become humble. Just like... (aside:) Don't come very near. Just like child is humble always because he knows that "I am completely helpless. Unless mother helps me, I am complete..." Therefore, whenever he's in need of something, he cries, "Mother, help me." This is helplessness. Helplessness. Always. Kārpaṇye. This is one of the items of surrender. Unless you think yourself helpless, you cannot surrender. Surrender is complete when you think yourself that you are helpless. "I am helpless, but because I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He'll save me." This faith also must be there, that "Although I am helpless... Not although I am factually helpless but because I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, I have no danger. He'll help me, protect me."
Paramahaṁsa: People often argue that they don't understand how they can have faith if they don't understand God.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Paramahaṁsa: They don't see how they can have faith if they have no knowledge of God. And they argue, "Well, I don't know God. So how can I have faith in Him?"
Prabhupāda: You learn from me. I am your spiritual master. You tell him. You are asking me. Why you are asking me? What is...? Why you are asking me?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, I was just giving an argument that people...
Prabhupāda: No, argument, that's all right. Why you are asking me?
Paramahaṁsa: For knowledge.
puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19).
Paramahaṁsa: People argue that "God has given us our intelligence and our senses, and therefore we must enjoy."
Prabhupāda: Yes. You enjoy. The dog is also enjoying. What you are enjoying more than the dog? Dog also eat. You also eat. Dog also sleep. You also sleep. Dogs also enjoy sex life. You also enjoy sex life. Dog is also afraid of his enemy. You are also afraid of your enemy. So what is the difference between you and dog? Why you claim that you have become very great? What is the difference between the dog's mentality and your mentality? God has given you intelligence to understand that you are nothing, God is everything. Just realize it. That is intelligence. That is intelligence. When you understand that "God is great. I am His servant," that is real reali... That is his intelligence. Otherwise, he's exactly like the dog. What is his intelligence?
Paramahaṁsa: But people today have reasoned God is dead with their intelligence.
Satsvarūpa: But by that argument, then, this body is also Kṛṣṇa, made of earth and water.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is Kṛṣṇa's. But you are thinking you are. That is Kṛṣṇa's. Therefore this body should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa's service. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You, as soon as you accept this body is Kṛṣṇa's, then you cannot employ it for other purposes. But that realization you have no. Why do you say it is Kṛṣṇa's? You are thinking your body. Or you are body. Where is that consciousness?
Paramahaṁsa: The impersonalists argue when they read the verse, ahaṁ sarvasya bhūteṣu...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Paramahaṁsa: They argue that Kṛṣṇa's in the heart of every living entity.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Therefore, every living entity is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Why? If I am in the room, I am room? Is that very good argument? Because I am in this room, I have become room? Is that argument very sound? Kṛṣṇa is within this body. I am also within this body. But does it mean I am body, or Kṛṣṇa is this body?
Devotees: No.
Prabhupāda: That is already answered. Kṛṣṇa says, "The body is Myself, but still, I am not there." So you cannot say by worshiping your body, you're worshiping Kṛṣṇa. At that time, he's not there, although the body's also Kṛṣṇa.
Paramahaṁsa: Sometimes, they argue, "How do you know this Deity is Kṛṣṇa, and this one isn't? Because each Deity looks a little different to the material eyes."
Prabhupāda: So we have to pluck out the material eyes. Then you'll see that it is all right. First of all, let me pluck out your material eyes. Then you'll see. Therefore it is said, premāñjana-cchurita: "Eyes with love of Godhead." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He saw Jagannātha Deity, Jagannātha Deity's not very beautiful. But immediately He saw Kṛṣṇa and fainted. You have to make that eyes, then you'll see. So your present eye have to be plucked out. Then you'll see. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Who is that statue? You are...?
Paramahaṁsa: It's a decoration.
Bhagavān: Where do we go?
Paramahaṁsa: There's a promenade around the fountain.
Prabhupāda: So they have made this art. Suppose a real man and woman stands here. Will it be considered as art or criminal?
worshiping Kṛṣṇa. But they're worshiping bones, keeping some dead bones, and...
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: People must be educated that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Why they do not understand?
Paramahaṁsa: The government argues that they do not want to discriminate against any religious faith. So they remain secular.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is no governmen... Religious faith is different. That is nonsense. You, we are talking of science. We are, just like we were saying that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. So where is the, any religious feeling? Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, how you can say no? Can you say?
Paramahaṁsa: They can say, "We don't know Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: You don't know Kṛṣṇa, but it belongs to somebody. He may be named as Kṛṣṇa or something else. That doesn't matter. But it is, it does not belong to you. How you can deny it? You have come here... Suppose I have come here, in Paris. I stay here for one week, two. Does it mean Paris is mine? Similarly, you come from the womb of your mother and stay here, say, fifty years. That is mean yours? The same example. Does it mean that the world belongs to you? Why you are claiming, "This is France," "This is Europe," "This is America," "This is mine," "This is mine..."? Before your birth it was there, and when you go, it will remain there. So how you claim that it is yours? So you don't... You must know as it remained, it was there before my birth, and it will remain after my departure. Then how it belongs to you? What is the answer?
Paramahaṁsa: It belongs to the man who created it.
Karandhara: But it's not just an opinion. It's not just a secular idea. By scientific principle, if we consider the logic of all the propositions of Bhagavad-gītā in relation to the Bible and Koran, if we're actually impartial and open, then we'll understand that truth. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of superior logic, extending the same basic truths to their highest perfection. So in discussing the merits of Bhagavad-gītā versus another scripture, it's not that we're trying to argue just for the sake of polemics but to establish the real standard, what is the most elevated or advanced standard of the knowledge.
Bhagavān: But people are suffering due to lack of that accurate knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to make that knowledge available in practical activity to stop this suffering. It is not just a philosophy without practice. That is the reason why it is important for discussing, not just for the sake of discussing but for the sake of bringing out the highest principles for action.
Prabhupāda: So according to Vedic way, Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Truth. Kṛṣṇa is Absolute Truth, accepted by the ācāryas. Indian civilization is carried on the advice of the ācārya-sampradāya. So all the ācāryas like Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they all accept Kṛṣṇa as the Absolute Truth. So when we hear from Kṛṣṇa then we get absolute knowledge.
Prabhupāda: But God says, "Although there are many ways, you give them up. You take to this only. Surrender unto Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Their many ways means there are many kinds of men. So in the śāstra sometimes the attempt is to bring every one of them to bhakti-yoga.
Paramahaṁsa: But they argue that no matter, all ways, all paths lead to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Paramahaṁsa: They argue that all paths lead to Kṛṣṇa. So why is one better than another?
Prabhupāda: If you know that all paths leads to Kṛṣṇa, then why don't you take this path? Why you are going round about way? If somebody asks you, "Where is your nose?" What is the use of showing like this. (laughter) Show like this. If you know really nose. But you do not know. Therefore you are going like this.
Guru-gaurāṅga: They say one man's food is another man's poison. So perhaps this process isn't practical for everyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you take the poison and die. Because you do not understand easily, better you take poison and die.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So cleanse yourself. Why don't you cleanse? Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). The cleansing process is chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and you'll be cleansed. Why do you stick to dirtiness? Be cleansed. If you agree that you are in dirtiness, then take the process of cleansing the dirt.
Paramahaṁsa: Sometimes people argue that they've been born a sinful person. I know you said once in an article that vice is not inherent in the living entity.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Paramahaṁsa: That vice, or sinful activity is not something one is born with, that he acquires those qualities. But many people believe today that they are born, you know...
Prabhupāda: But we are giving you the process of cleansing. Why you are persisting to remain unclean? We are giving you the medicine. We are all unclean. Now we are attempting and we are becoming clean. Why don't you come and be cleansed? (break) ...Navadvīpa. From the day you arrive there, you'll be cleansed. I have got such a nice place. Come there, and stay, according to our rules and regulations. He'll be cleansed. One may be diseased but there are so many clinics, so many physicians, cleaning. Why should you insist to remain unclean? (break) That is accepted. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ (?). By birth, everyone is a śūdra. Śūdra means unclean. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. But he takes to the reformatory methods, he becomes cleansed, dvija, twice-born, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya.
Bhagavān: No, I said if we begin education early, they can be...
Prabhupāda: Yes, as early as possible. From the very womb, you begin education. Let the mother hear about Kṛṣṇa. He'll be purified from the womb. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja became. He was born by a demon father. But his quality changed when his mother was instructed by Nārada Muni, everything was changed. If the demons cannot be changed, then what is the meaning of preaching?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, sometimes they argue that Kṛṣṇa knows past, present and future. We are preaching that we have minute independence. We are preaching that Kṛṣṇa has given us minute independence to desire. So if Kṛṣṇa knows past, present and future, then where is the question of our independence? In other words, He knows already what we're going to desire?
Prabhupāda: Past, present and future? Therefore there should be no independence? Is that a very good argument?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That is their argument.
Bhagavān: They say if Kṛṣṇa knows already what you're going to do in the future, then what is the question of your independence?
Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Don't do it. Do it." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... (BG 18.66). He was going to do sinful activities. Kṛṣṇa advises him, "Don't do it." Kṛṣṇa changes. Therefore He comes. Because Kṛṣṇa knows that in the future, you'll, you'll do all sinful activities, therefore Kṛṣṇa comes to check you, "Don't do it."
Prabhupāda: This must be killed. (indistinct)
Guest: (indistinct) Even here there are people who think that.
Prabhupāda: Oh, they are thinking like that? (indistinct)
Guest: One of the big people here, I said to him after I argued like this for hours, I said, "You are Western and I am Eastern, not the other way around." Thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Give him the whole plate. (laughter)
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) So I am very glad to see you.
Devotee: (indistinct)
Guest: Yes, and she was hoping to come later, but if you are only going to be here two days, I don't know whether she will...
Devotee: We'll be leaving the 15th, evening of the 15th, late the 15th.
Guest: Yes, and this is the 13th. I'll take this to her. Thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming here.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: There are many places. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...is given for practicing God consciousness, and they have become advanced civilized, they are cultivating nudie-ism. Is it not? Nudie-ism. So the punishment is that "All right, you become nudie, you remain standing in one place, for five thousand years." (laughter) That is right. The trees live up till five thousand years. They live.
Viṣṇujana: Prabhupāda? But they argue that if God wanted us to wear clothes He would have made us with clothes. But He made us without clothes, so...
Prabhupāda: The thing is that here material world means that whatever you want, you have to work for it. That is material world. Things are there, but you have to work for it. In the spiritual world there is no need of working. You get all necessities. That is the difference.
Viṣṇujana: Yeah, we could say, "If God wanted you to have food, then He would have made you with food too." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Viṣṇujana: They say, "If God wanted us to have clothes, that He would have made us with clothes." So if He wanted you to have food, then He would have made you with food. Why do you have to go out and get your food? Similarly, you have to go out and get your clothes.
Prabhupāda: No, this is called... What is the definition in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa? Avidyā-karma-samjñānyā tṛtīya śaktir iṣyate. Avidyā...
- viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā proktā
- kṣetrajñākhyā tathā parā
- avidyā-karma-samjñānya
- tṛtīya śaktir iṣyate
- (CC Madhya 6.154)
The three divisions of God's energies. One energy is His spiritual energy; another energy—these living entities, they are also spiritual; another energy—material energy, where there is ignorance and work. That is material energy. In the material energy everyone is ignorant and they have to work. Karma. Karma means working. Avidyā-karma-samjñānya tṛtīya. So here you have to work. Without working, you cannot get your... The things are ready, but you will have to work. So they have increased the working capability. That is civilization. Just like in the prisonhouse you have to work. Eh? So they think this working is civilization. This is avidya.
Prabhupāda: Yes. To minimize this material work means the energy should be employed for Kṛṣṇa. Minimize work this, means this side, material side. And save time and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is the principle. And if you are busy from the early morning to go to the working place and up to ten o'clock, then where you get for chanting, time? So therefore you save time from material activities and engage it for advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is life.
Rāmeśvara: But the Communists, they also argue that this Christian religion is hypocrisy. It has not brought peace on earth. So they also want to abolish it.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Rāmeśvara: They also want to abolish religion, this Christian religion, and just have a...
Prabhupāda: That is bad experience. They have got bad experience from this so-called Christian religion, and they have no information that there is need of religion. Therefore they want to abolish. Everyone has got bad experience, and they are a little forward, that "Finish it." That's it.
Rāmeśvara: They say that the problems of the world are so great that unless people have allegiance to one world government, they will not be able to be solved.
Prabhupāda: That we say, that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme governor...
Rāmeśvara: Jaya.
Ambassador: Um hm. I know they think that sometimes. Even here there are people who think that.
Prabhupāda: Oh, they are thinking like that? But I heard that the king is very pious.
Ambassador: One of the big people here, I said to him—after I argued about this for hours—I said, "You are Western and I am Eastern, not the other way around." (laughs) Thank you very much. I shall take your leave?
Prabhupāda: So, give him prasāda. Give him the whole plate. (laughs) You can take whole plate. So I am very glad to see you.
Ambassador: Yes. And she was hoping to come later, but if you're only going to be here two days I don't know whether she will...
Paramahaṁsa: We're leaving the 15th, evening of the 15th.
Ambassador: Yes, but this is the 13th now. I will take this to her. Thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Movebhed: I said I think the question you put, the clear concept of Kṛṣṇa, or God... The God for me is not a conceptual thing. It cannot be subject to concept, and to understand God, you have to identify yourself with the truth, and otherwise it's not the way to...
Prabhupāda: No, if you accept Kṛṣṇa as the teacher, authority, just like Arjuna accepted. Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam: (BG 2.7) "Now I accept You as my teacher." Śiṣya. Śiṣya means disciple. Śiṣyas te aham: "I am Your now disciple. Don't accept me as Your friend." Friend to friend talk, it is not very serious. So when one is accepted as the master, then you have to accept his statement. There is no question of argument. That is the relationship between guru and disciple. Therefore the process is: before accepting a person as guru, one must study his position. And guru also, before accepting a disciple, must study his position. In this way the relationship between guru and disciple is established. Now, Arjuna is a friend of Kṛṣṇa, so he has studied Kṛṣṇa, and therefore he submits, Arjuna, "Kṛṣṇa, although we are friends, now I accept You as my spiritual master." Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam: (BG 2.7) "I am now surrendered." "Surrendered" means "As I accept you as my teacher, I'll not argue." So first of all this is required, that before accepting somebody as teacher one must be convinced that "The person whom I am going to accept, my teacher, is perfect." Then the knowledge will be nice. If we approach a perfect person and submissively hear from him, then the knowledge is perfect. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the supreme authority, as Arjuna quoted.
Pañcadraviḍa: Because in the class that... I asked that question because we're saying, well, there's no question of creating life. We're agreeing that the soul already exists. But can the scientists... If a scientist claims he'll create the conditions in which a soul will enter, do we accept that premise, and I thought, "No, because that's giving them much too much ground," that if we say that, then by their definition, they can say, "I am creating life. I don't want to argue over the existence or not of the soul, but I'll arrange all the chemicals for you."
Prabhupāda: Where is that chemist? Where is that chemical combination that, I mean to say, grows a soul, generate a soul? Even if you have got the chemicals, you cannot do it.
Pañcadraviḍa: Whether it's true or not, somebody was claiming to me that the scientists are creating primitive forms of life like enzymes and things like this because enzymes show... Enzymes are produced by life. They show certain living tendencies. The scientists claim they are able to create enzymes.
Prabhupāda: So what is the credit? The enzymes are being naturally created, and the soul is there. So what is his credit? The arrangement is already there automatically, the secretion between the man and the woman, and they mix together, emulsified, and the situation is created, and the soul comes there. The soul is injected through the semina of the man. It is already arranged. So what is your credit?
Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they say the credit is that "We are doing these things in the laboratory without the presence of the soul. They are not being produced by any living organism."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...and that because now it's been translated into the English language, there is necessary interpretation.
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore we are giving the original verse, word to word meaning.
Pañcadraviḍa: Some, some man argued that...
Prabhupāda: Where is the interpretation necessary?
Satsvarūpa: They say we interpret even in the word to word.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Satsvarūpa: They claim that we interpret even in word to word.
Prabhupāda: But how do you do? Just like dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). Interpret in different way this word, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre? It cannot be interpreted. And how do you dare to say that "We can interpret word to word." In the beginning, you cannot do it.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: (BG 7.3) "Out of many millions of people, one may become interested about what is the perfection of life." They do not want. "And out of such millions of persons," yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3), "who was trying for perfection of life, out of many millions of them, one can understand Me, Kṛṣṇa." māyā is so strong. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not for ordinary person. Most fortunate, bhāgyavān jīva... Guru-kṛṣṇa kṛpaya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). All these living entities, wandering throughout the universe... Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite. If one gets the chance of guru and Kṛṣṇa, then he can understand. And if still one argues, then he's again misfortunate. Therefore Kṛṣṇa demands, "You rascal, don't argue! Surrender!" Sarva-dharmān parityaja mām... That is the way. He commands.
Prabhupāda: You should simply prepare for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Haṁsadūta: That's all?
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, people sometimes argue that "God placed us in this world..."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People argue that "God has placed us in this world, and that He's left us in darkness, so therefore He's played a trick on us." What is our argument against this?
Prabhupāda: You have come to this world of darkness, and Kṛṣṇa is trying to raise you again to the light. That is the fact. You have willingly come to this nonsense place. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that He comes Himself and tries to again get you out, deliver from this nonsense thing. This is real position.
Prabhupāda: Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī (BG 6.1). Anāśritaḥ kar... Everyone is expecting some good result for his sense gratification. That is āśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ. He has taken the shelter of good result. But one who does not take shelter of the result of activities... It is my duty. Karyam. Karyam means "It is my duty. Doesn't matter what is the result. I must do it sincerely to my best capacity. Then I don't care for the result. Result is in Kṛṣṇa's hand." Karyam: "It is my duty. My Guru Mahārāja said it, so it is my duty. It doesn't matter whether it is successful or not successful. That depends on Kṛṣṇa." In this way, anyone, if he works, then he is a sannyāsī. Not the dress, but the attitude of working. Yes, that is sannyāsa. Karyam: "It is my duty." Sa sannyāsī ca yogī ca. He is yogi, first-class yogi. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna officially, he did not take sannyāsa. He was a gṛhastha, soldier. But when he took it very seriously, karyam—"Kṛṣṇa wants this fight. Never mind I have to kill my relatives. I must do it"—that is sannyāsa. First of all he argued with Kṛṣṇa that "This kind of fighting is not good, family killing...," and so on, so on, so on. He argued. But after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, when he understood that "It is my duty. Kṛṣṇa wants me to do it." Karyam. So in spite of his becoming a householder, a soldier, he's a sannyāsī. He took it-karyam. Karyam means "It is my duty." That is real sannyāsa. "Kṛṣṇa wants that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must be spread. So this is my karyam. This is my duty. And the direction is my spiritual master. So I must do it." This is sannyāsa. This is sannyāsa, sannyāsa mentality. But there is formality. That should... That may be accepted.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yaśodānandana: They will argue...
Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is called hope against hope. That is foolishness. Therefore we say because you are expecting like that, therefore we understand that you are a fool. We can immediately understand, "Here is a grand fool." That is our study. Many fools have done like that, and you are one of them, you are also scientific (indistinct). Therefore our conclusion is "You are Fool No. 1."
Devotee: We may not be able to actually stop death, but while we're here we can at least prolong our lifetime and...
Prabhupāda: That also you cannot do. Where is the proof?
Devotee: Well, at the atomic research plants...
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another foolishness, I say. You have not done it. You are simply expecting. Hope against hope. That's all.
Devotee: But they are making different cures for critical diseases that are causing deaths...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But that does not mean there will be no disease. That is already being done by many medical practitioners. Better medicine. But where is the medicine that will not be disease.
Prabhupāda: Where is difficulty to understand? If it is not understood, put your question and try to understand.
Amogha: In verses like this one, when there is the multi-use of one word, like the word ātmā is mentioned here to refer to four potential meanings. Sometimes professors and some scholars argue on the point, how do we know which one of the meanings is used in this verse?
Prabhupāda: Any one you can take, and it will be explained.
Amogha: So any of the four meanings is also the same true meaning.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Amogha: Sometimes they claim that we should not claim that our choice is the true choice, but they don't understand that any of those meanings can be true at the same time.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this body is true. We have got body. We don't say it is false. It is true. Bodily pains and pleasures we feel, so how can I say that the body is false? The body means bodily pains and pleasures, then we are affected, so how you can say it is false? Similarly the mind, and soul is absolute thing. Factually. So any item you take, you can understand by thorough study.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? They are discussing?
Amogha: Yes. In the newspaper articles in the university. The homosexuals are campaigning for equal rights. And there is a big debate whether homosexuals are good or bad. All over the world there are homosexuals, and also they are arguing over Palestine and Israel. And sometimes (indistinct) In Melbourne there was fighting between people who support Israel and Palestine. All these arguments they have in the newspapers.
Paramahaṁsa: Even in Los Angeles they have a group of homosexuals who used to get harassed by people all the time. So now they have become a military group, and they carry weapons. And if anybody harasses them, they shoot them. They're called Militant Homosexuals.
Amogha: In one high school here they asked the question whether we accept homosexuality. And I said, "Of course not. This is only a perversion." And they said, "This is nature's way to stop overpopulation," because there won't be any children. So much foolish.
Prabhupāda: How degraded the human society is becoming. And the children, they are discussing.
Gaṇeśa: When the movement first came out to Australia about three or four years ago, one of his disciples who was a girl, she came through Perth, and at that time I was arguing Bhagavad-gītā with her, but she could not understand. She could not see that it was Kṛṣṇa to surrender to and not Guru Maharaj-ji.
Amogha: Whenever we place a good argument with them, they say, "Yes, but all these words are just words, and actually it is beyond words. The truth is beyond words. So never mind."
Prabhupāda: You are talking words. You are not beyond.
Amogha: Then they should not talk anything.
Prabhupāda: "Please stop your talking because you are not beyond, you are talking also like me."
Paramahaṁsa: They say that the Absolute Truth is beyond words. That way we don't have to explain anything about it.
Prabhupāda: So we don't say beyond words. You say. But you are talking, therefore you cannot speak about Absolute Truth.
Prabhupāda: So we don't say beyond words. You say. But you are talking, therefore you cannot speak about Absolute Truth.
Amogha: Well, they don't.
Paramahaṁsa: They only talk nonsense.
Amogha: They don't like to argue about the Absolute Truth. They'll only talk nonsense.
Prabhupāda: Why you are holding meetings? Big, big meeting arrangements, why do you make?
Amogha: Well, they hold the meeting and they say, "You come to us and take knowledge," that's all.
Prabhupāda: That is word, that is word.
Paramahaṁsa: But they say it's something else.
Prabhupāda: You are using words, canvassing. Why do you say beyond words? The word is helping you.
Paramahaṁsa: Well, they say, "The actual knowledge is beyond words. You come and take knowledge from us and you will see that it's beyond words."
Prabhupāda: The beginning is words. So where is the absolute knowledge?
Prabhupāda: That I answered, that "That is God."
Amogha: Then they were defeated.
Prabhupāda: God means that without father, He can, He will exist. That is God. That is the difference between you and God.
Amogha: How can darkness argue with the sunlight? Their trying to argue is just like darkness trying to argue with the sunlight.
Prabhupāda: And that Burmese said, "We don't believe in God." And you don't believe in God. You don't... Why you believe Lord Buddha? He is God.
Amogha: Then he said, "But there is no God mentioned in Buddhism. There is nirvāṇa."
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you worship Buddha. Why?
Amogha: Because he spoke about nirvāṇa. In Burma many people are Buddhist. They say they are Buddhist.
Prabhupāda: Till now, 2,600 years past from the Buddhist community, from other groups and Arabia, very big religionist or philosophers has come. They are all in darkness. It was for the time being. The Buddhist religion was for the time. Atheist class men... (end)
Amogha: If they would only listen, they will be defenseless, but they don't listen much.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they go away, "My time is over." (laughs)
Amogha: Yes. "I am busy. I must go."
Prabhupāda: His energy is over. Not time is over, but his energy is over. He see that "We cannot argue with this man."
Śrutakīrti: He'll not give us a chance. (break) (speaking to another devotee) Wouldn't it be better if you make his breakfast?
Devotee: Certainly.
Prabhupāda: I've talked with many psychiatric scientists in Los Angeles.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: All of them (indistinct). Even our own scientist.
Amogha: (laughs) Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is now writing books. He is afraid of writing these such books, because his brother scientists may not like it.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that "Kṛṣṇa says something else." Kṛṣṇa says, "Always think of Me." So we have to present that "Kṛṣṇa says, you always think of Kṛṣṇa." That is honesty. And if I say, "No, no, you don't think of Kṛṣṇa," that is dishonesty. That is dishonesty. We are fighting against that. Why should you poke your nose in the statement of Kṛṣṇa? If you have got different views, you put your own book.
Dr. Copeland: Mmm, we're not really arguing about the same thing. I'm saying that if, say, somebody says Christ in the Bible says something...
Prabhupāda: You must say that "Christ says like this." That is honesty.
Dr. Copeland: Yeah, okay.
Prabhupāda: If you say, "No, no, what Christ says it is wrong. What I am saying, it is right." Then it is dishonest.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is transcendental, this microphone, because it is being used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. The same flower, when you use it for sense gratification, it is material. The same flower when you offer to Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual. The flower is not different, but by the different use it becomes material and spiritual. I think I have said many times that there is actually no material existence. Therefore it is called māyā. Māyā means it has no actual existence. We create an atmosphere. That is māyā. Atmosphere of forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa, that is māyā. Anartha. Anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam (SB 1.7.6). If this park is given to us, we can immediately make it Vaikuṇṭha. We know how to do it. But it is not given to us. The same electric energy is creating heater and cooler. For the cooler there is no different electric energy. And for the heater there is no different—the same electric. Similarly, the material and spiritual is coming from Kṛṣṇa's energy.
How Kṛṣṇa's energy can be material? That is spiritual. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said that "These material elements, they are also My energy." So how Kṛṣṇa's energy can be material? Bhinna, separated, a little separated, that's all. Separated means as soon as you separate Kṛṣṇa from anything, that is material. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have to dovetail everything with Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be spiritual. As soon as you say these demons they separate Kṛṣṇa, "What is Kṛṣṇa? What is God? We are scientist, we are technicians and so on, so on. We create our own thing." That means they don't dovetail with Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are materialist. When we want to enjoy life without Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And Kṛṣṇa gives chance, "All right, you enjoy without Me." And when he is disgusted, then Kṛṣṇa comes once, "Now you have experienced. You haven't got happiness. Now give up this attitude to enjoy without Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam... (BG 18.66).
"Do it." This is going on. The rascals, they want to enjoy life without Kṛṣṇa. The gopīs are dancing with Kṛṣṇa; the dancing is here also, ball dance. Why they do not get any pleasure? Without Kṛṣṇa. You dance with Kṛṣṇa, you get real pleasure. So our business is to educate people that "Everything is Kṛṣṇa. You try to understand." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are trying to forget Kṛṣṇa. That is your argument. Just like the materialistic person argue, "Why shall I do this? Why shall I go to Kṛṣṇa?" They argue simply this. Actually, there cannot exist anything without Kṛṣṇa. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam, Kṛṣṇa says. "All this, whatever you see, that is My expansion of energy. Everything is resting on Me." Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4). "Everything is on Me." Nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ. By bhakti-yoga gradually he develops that everything—vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19)—everything is Kṛṣṇa. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That mahātmā is very rare who can see everywhere Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: They might argue...
Prabhupāda: What is the argument? You have stopped. That is your failure, that's all. You can argue to the laymen, foolish men, but we will say you have stopped; therefore it is failure. All bogus propaganda is now stopped.
Devotee (3): They are saying the moon isn't worth develop...
Prabhupāda: Now they cannot say anything because they are failure. Anything they say, that is all foolishness. They cannot say anything. Once you are failure, you have no value, anything you say.
Harikeśa: I've heard the argument that when they are going to the moon, they are always in contact, bouncing off these sonar waves and radar waves off the moon's surface, and when they are coming near, they can even see from their little portholes the moon's surface, the same moon that they see on the earth.
Prabhupāda: They say all nonsense. That's all. (chuckles) Why the earth is not brilliant at night like the moon?
Bali-mardana: It depends on where you are. It depends on where you are looking from.
Prabhupāda: "Where you are" means?
Harikeśa: They have pictures from the moon taken of the earth.
Prabhupāda: Pictures? First of all you see. Then take picture. You cannot see.
Harikeśa: They use all these things to argue that they actually did go to the moon.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of argument if they have stopped? That is failure. Don't talk nonsense anymore. Phalena paricīyate. By the result we have to understand. Your result is you are failure. Then what is the use of talking nonsense? Stop this nonsense.
Ambarīṣa: It's like five years ago they declared a war on cancer, and they spent billions and billions of dollars on it, and just the other day they now said that it was a complete failure, that the disease has just kept on growing and growing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot stop even cancer disease and you are controlling nature. Just see their (?) false, puffed up. They cannot control one disease, and they are going to control nature. We have to believe that.
Harikeśa: He just told me I was spaced out because I wasn't punching this in, but I'm still astounded by the fact that the moon is further away than the sun. When the devotees hear this tape, they're not going to believe it.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they could not go. I... First of all I said that they might have gone to the Rahu planet.
Harikeśa: Yes, the Fourth Canto.
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all my conviction: they have gone nowhere. They have simply stayed in their laboratory, that's all.
Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that is if we want to do something substantial, we must come on a common platform. That common platform is already there. Every line of Bhagavad-gītā is so nice...
Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, but sir...
Prabhupāda: Nobody can argue on it.
Yogi Bhajan: You have to provide the opportunity for those who will not have the chance to meet you to meet you. Those who have no opportunity to listen to you to listen to you. Those who have not seen you to see you. And I think that has its value. I never... I would never have gone to meet Sant Kirpal Singh. He came. And there the idea of this Unity of Man Conference was framed. And I left all the way to India, and I asked him one thing which I loved in him. He said, "Well, I am going to die next year. You take over," and I said, "Forget it, that's not my job. I'm not going to take over anything from anybody. I have to do what I have to do." Then he said, "Well, this is the idea. Would you try to be second with me in this time?" I said, "All right, I'll do that." And in the end I almost was convinced that he is a great man. And he asked me, he said, "You don't believe in anybody except God. Human forms are very... I understand you, I know you," because he knows me from very childhood. But I asked him one thing. I said, "I have never seen a saint on whom saints believe. They all have their own territories and whole thing." You know.
Prabhupāda: Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam: "He is not a muni if he does not disagree with another muni."
Prabhupāda: King Kong. It was made in laboratory.
Bali-mardana: Yes.
Harikeśa: Also 2001 was very expertly made like that. There is one movie, 2001, which looked even better than the moon shots.
Devotee: Someone was arguing with me that if, like Russia and America both are enemies, if Russia achieves something great like going to the moon, America will immediately try to expose it. But on the contrary, America accepted all those things. And because...
Prabhupāda: Then there is also... Both of them are thieves, they have made agreement, "Don't expose me. I'll not expose you."
Devotee: So that is their agree... But they are enemies...
Prabhupāda: No, no, enemies, they are not enemies. They are simply rogues and thieves, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Just like here in America I have come to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am not interested for sight-seeing. That is not my business. Whatever you say, "It is here like this," "All right, That's all, finished." Why should we try to confirm it? Whatever you say, that's all right. Now, we are seeing the other part; if somebody there, "It is like this," that's all right. I'm not going to test it. So what is the use of arguing? I have no interest.
Siddha-svarūpa: The materialists, they want to argue on the platform of material arrangements, and there's...
Prabhupāda: That is useless.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What he will gain by such argument? You are not going there neither you are interested for going to the moon planet. For knowledge sake it is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and everyone is... Just like when we speak of the hell, everyone is little anxious, "Where are the hell?" So that is described. In the down this universe there are lokas.
Prabhupāda: Now you can take. Kṛṣṇa has given us so many nice things. Why should we kill the poor animals? That's not good. Because na samaḥ, there is no such vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. He is not a brāhmaṇa. He is giving the dog a bad name and hang it. Animal has no soul. What is this? Animal has no soul?
Bahulāśva: Sometimes they argue that we're killing the vegetables.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Vegetable has also life but we are not killing. When you pluck out the flower, the tree is not killed. When you take a fruit, the tree is not killed. When you take grains, automatically they die. Then you take the grains. There is no question of killing. But even it is killing, it is not as murderous as killing a cow. Why the state hangs a man when he kills a man? The man can plead that "So many animals are being killed every day. If I kill one man, what is the wrong there?" The punishment is that "You have killed one important animal." Therefore the Bhaga..., kṛṣi-go-rakṣya, that cow should be protected because it is a very, very, important animal. It does not say, "Other animal." Or does not say, "All animals." He said, "Cows," because important. It's supplying you milk, so important food. She is your mother and you are killing mother? Is that your civilization? Killing mother? "Mother is old, and mother is no more supplying milk. Kill." Is there any such sanction? Rather, old mother is given more protection. And what is this civilization, killing the mother? In the morning we require milk immediately, and the mother cow is supplying. And when she cannot supply, kill her. What is this philosophy?
Prabhupāda: Learned scholars, philosophers, they should understand the importance of this movement and how it is beneficial. They are suffering for want of knowledge of the spirit soul. They are keeping themselves in the animal platform with their so-called education, but unless there is spiritual understanding, the education has no value. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇa mano-rathena asato dhavato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). He will remain on the mental platform. And mind is now materially contaminated. So even if he remains in the mental platform, he remains in the material platform. He cannot make any improvement. One has to come to the spiritual platform. That is required.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Prabhupāda, what is the symptom that you have reached the spiritual platform?
Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54), samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. These persons who are on the mental platform, they will argue, "The animal has no soul."
John Mize: I did not understand the answer.
Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda said that those who are on the mental platform will argue that the animal has no soul. They will be hankering and lamenting...
Prabhupāda: These are the signs of material platform.
Prabhupāda: It is... Very simple answer is: when the mother certifies, "He is your father," that's all. You don't have to make research. That is futile. By research, you cannot understand who is your real father. You can understand your real father only by the certificate of your mother. That's all. Therefore our Vedic mantra says that religion and God cannot be manufactured by speculation. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkena yojayet. Just like this example, father. Father was existing before my birth. So after my birth, with limited knowledge I make research who is my father—you will never find your father. But if you take the certificate of your mother, that is there. Similarly, acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā, things which are beyond our conception, that cannot be established simply by argument, logic, so-called science and philosophy, that is not possible. The same example: by argument, logic, science, philosophy you cannot ascertain who is your father. The only simple method and authorized method is to ask mother, and if she says, "Yes, he is your father..." Similarly, things which are beyond our conception, simply argument will be useless. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkena yo... Tarka means arguments. In another place it is said, tarka, argument, is futile. Tarkaḥ apratiṣṭhaḥ: "By argument, you cannot come to the right conclusion." You can argue in a way; I can argue a better way, he can argue in better way. That is not the system. That will not help. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186).
Satsvarūpa: Yeah, he criticized our Uttamaśloka. And then he said, "Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, they don't engage in argumentation and debate." So Uttamaśloka said, "Yes, Lord Caitanya argued with Prakāśānanda."
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good.
Satsvarūpa: But Swami Bon said, "No, He didn't convert him by argument, He converted him by the effulgence."
Prabhupāda: (To Bon:) "But there was argument, rascal." (laughter)
Satsvarūpa: And as a result of that...
Prabhupāda: He is a rascal, rascal.
Satsvarūpa: He told one professor that our devotees in general, they're not tolerant when someone speaks something.
Prabhupāda: (To Bon:) "You are also not tolerant. Why you have come here? Because you are envious. You are the most intolerant. You are blaspheming."
Harikeśa: The mode of ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Logic is meant for learned man, and uneducated man, they want to force, "Yes, you must do it." With point of revolver, "You must do it." And educated man, they argue on logic. That is the difference. (break) ...queens of Kṛṣṇa, they are giving statement as maidservant of Kṛṣṇa. You have read that portion? When there was talk between Kuntī and queens of Kṛṣṇa, the queens presented themself as maidservant of Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: The men have become the servants of the women.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Harikeśa: Women's liberation has become successful because man is now the servant of woman.
Prabhupāda: It is not successful. That I was pointing out. It has caused the disaster because the whole women become dependent on the welfare gift of the government, and the government has to raise tax heavily for this purpose. The tax is given by the general public, but it is going for one individual person, and I have heard that government is embarrassed. They are now making enquiry about the welfare gifts.
Prabhupāda: Food or whatever it may be, but the body, the ingredients of the body are complete to get life. You cannot say some chemical is missing. If it is missing, then how so many living entities are coming? There is nothing missing; everything is there. You cannot say, "missing." What is that "missing"? You do not know. That is soul.
Paramahaṁsa: When I first joined the movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I used to listen to your lectures and then go talk with my father. And he would argue with me, and I would find a question and come back and ask you and find the answer and go back and argue with him. But the thing I always came up against is that if he assumes that there's life on other planets or that there is a supreme source, a supreme energy or God, then it destroys his entire life's work, his study.
Prabhupāda: Then they are fools. They should stop all this education. This university should be broken. (laughter) Because they are producing only fools. That's all. They should stop this education.
Bahulāśva: Donate all these buildings to you.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. The buildings will remain there, but they will be finished. What is this education? They do not know what is God, what is soul, and what is the meaning of education? Simply bodily concept of life like cats and dogs, so what is the use of education? They remain cats and dogs. That is no value.
Prabhupāda: What is your idea? I do not follow. Everyone knows the sun will appear, faithless or faith.
Yadubara: Is that faith?
Prabhupāda: Not faith. It is fact. He is seeing every day.
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists will argue...
Prabhupāda: That is faith—means on knowledge. So faith with knowledge is very good. But beginning must be faith, with knowledge or without knowledge.
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists will argue that Kṛṣṇa consciousness won't be scientifically accepted if it's just based on...
Prabhupāda: The scientists, how they can argue like that? Therefore they are rascals. First of all they explain something theoretically: "Hydrogen, oxygen-mix together it becomes water." It is faith. Then it is practically shown in the laboratory. So faith is the beginning. Theoretical knowledge means faith. Then experiment.
Baradrāj: The Vedic knowledge is also that way, very scientific.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because in beginning is mistaken. (break) ...your education from wrong platform, then whole thing is wrong. (break)...study means that "I am this dress," then do you study me properly? So that is their intelligence. They are studying, Darwin studying, this body and no knowledge of the proprietor of the body. (break)
Rādhā-vallabha: They argue that this Vedic philosophy is coming from India, and in India there is so much disease and so many problems, but here, where we have our science, there is no disease.
Prabhupāda: Because they are now fond of you. The Indians have become infected by you; therefore they are diseased. You are all diseased, and now you infected them, they have also become diseased.
Brahmānanda: But why is there no disease here? Why is there no symptoms?
Prabhupāda: There is no disease? Why you are anxious about the cancer, the big disease? India may be suffering from small disease, and because you are suffering from big disease, therefore you are big. "We... I am suffering from big disease." First of all become diseaseless, then talk of that India is suffering and you are not suffering. You are big, and you are suffering from big disease, that's all.
Prabhupāda: No, incarnations there are many. Many incarnations. There is a verse there. But Kṛṣṇa is the origin of incarnation. He is the original source of all incarnation. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So as you are teacher of religion, so you try to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy.
Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, during the last year I went to many different colleges and universities. And I could see that these professors are very much argumentative. They like to argue. They like to debate. So I tried to start one debating program so that they could come and they could bring their philosophy. And I told them that I could show them their philosophy and how it was defective from the Bhagavad-gītā. I wanted to know if this was a good program for the universities.
Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy?
Devotee (4): There were some engineers that came. And they said that everything that we see manifested in this material world is made by the engineers.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is the greatest engineer.
Prabhupāda: No, they want to be cheated. What can be done? Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). Just like the advertisement, "No faith, no philosophy, no restriction." You want all these things; therefore he has come to cheat you: "Yes. No regulation. You can do whatever you like." And then he will praised, "Oh, he is good, good swamiji. He has no restriction. And here is a most conservative swamiji. 'Don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this.' " They want to be cheated. As soon as you speak the truth they will not accept. They will argue. What is the wrong in illicit sex? Why he's restricting? This is the... They go to guru to teach the guru, not to take lesson from the guru. What is that?
Mādhavānanda: ...thinks that they have some responsibility in the world, and if you say all of a sudden that "You have no responsibility..."
Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that "Yes, you have responsibility so long you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious," not that a person who is not in the devotional service of the Lord, he can say, "I have no responsibility." He cannot say.
Prabhupāda: Then the population will stop? Will the population stop anymore? Then where is the proof? Just see how foolishness.
Harikeśa: Sometimes they argue that only a small...
Prabhupāda: This is argument. This is argument, that it is not fact. Let them... Women has agreed not to have sex with man. Then close all these maternity hospitals. That is the only happiness. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukha hi tuccham. The husband and wife, they, I mean to say, mix together only for this, especially in this age. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. They get married only for sex pleasure, not for any other purpose. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. Otherwise the purpose is husband and wife together, they will worship Laksmi-Narayana and become perfect. That is the description given in Puṁsavana. You will get the statement there how the husband and wife is advised to worship Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣm-Nārāyaṇa. Therefore you will find in Hindu culture, every family, Lakṣm-Nārāyaṇa worship, the husband and wife. Still there are, there is some glimpse of human civilization in India. So we can revive it. In Bhogilal's house there is no dog.
Prabhupāda: No, no, not nirākāra. That is not...
Dr. Patel: Even Christianity considers His ākāra—"God has form."
Prabhupāda: No, Mohammed also has got... Caitanya Mahāprabhu argued in Koran. He proved there is kṛṣṇa-bhakti. He proved with the Pathans. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise the Christianity is just our way, I mean, absolutely Vaisnavism. It has been wrongly preached and wrongly initiated in India. That is why it has fallen to disrepute. Otherwise Christianity is just Vaiṣṇava-dharma. Nothing else, to my mind, the way I have studied, I mean the New Testament and all the Christian, all the things. Now, the sermon of Christ is nothing but the preaching of Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: I never criticized. I simply said that positive side, God consciousness.
Dr. Patel: Christ himself was drunk with God consciousness totally.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Patel: Christ himself was drunk with God consciousness in toto, absolute.... There cannot be a higher bhakta than that. It is said that Jesus Christ learned all these things in India. It might be a fact?
Passerby: (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: And he daily bhakta. (?) He came for pūjā, for guru. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...devatā bhaktāḥ, te 'pi mām eva kaunteya yajanty avidhi-purvakam. They give examples, as the gopīs worshiped Kātyāyanī. But that is not avidhi. They went to Kātyāyanī for getting the favor of Kṛṣṇa. They prayed to mother Kātyāyanī, "Please be favorable to us so that Kṛṣṇa may be pleased upon us." Others go to beg from Kātyāyanī some material benefits, but the gopīs, they did not ask for any material benefit. And therefore that is vidhi.
Cyavana: Without the mother they cannot survive.
Prabhupāda: No, without, they can survive; still, they are dependent.
Cyavana: They have to be taught how to live by the mother.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They feel protected with the mother. Safe. People sometimes argue that God is for less intelligent, weak persons.
Brahmānanda: People who can't protect themselves, for people who cannot protect themselves, then they can have belief...
Prabhupāda: Then you can protect from death? Can you?
Brahmānanda: But can God protect? Even Jesus Christ, he was killed.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. We are faulty. But you are so advanced. Do you protect yourself from death? We are faulty. That is your decision. That we admit. But what is your position? Protect yourself from death. At any moment death can take place. How you'll protect yourself? Therefore we take protection of God. That "God, You can kill me at any moment. You can save me also." Therefore we are intelligent. But you cannot protect from the onslaught of God. We admit God is great, but you do not, although you will not be protected. You cannot protect yourself from birth, death, old age and disease. So what is the meaning of your protection?
Prabhupāda: That is your business. That is your business. But we give you the idea that light comes from everywhere. There is one glowworm. That light also light, and the sunlight is also light. You cannot think that the glowworm's light and the sunlight is the same. Now it is your business to see which is glowworm light and which is sunlight. That is your business.
Guest (6) (Indian man): It has been eloquently argued particularly in Third World countries that your movement is under the wing of a certain imperialist countries. Do you...?
Brahmānanda: He said that there is some allegation that our movement is connected with certain imperialistic countries.
Prabhupāda: Let them say all nonsense. What can I do? Every nonsense will speak something nonsense. How can I check it? There are so many nonsenses, and therefore we are trying to make all these nonsense into human beings. That is our program. So long he is a nonsense, he will go on speaking nonsense. What can I do?
Guest (4): Swamiji, one thing I want to know. This śloka, from where you have got it, this śloka, lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam? This śloka, lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is in the third chapter of Twelfth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Have you got our Bhāgavata, Twelfth Canto?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's true.
Prabhupāda: They do not go to the church, but they come to us for arguing with Bible. Just see. What is the meaning? Their churches have closed, nobody goes, and they come to argue with us with Bible. That means "The Devil cites scripture." They are devils, and they are quoting from Bible.
Devotee (2): So many people who come to our program, they are Christians. There may be 75% who come. They are all Christians.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. We don't discriminate whether he is Christian. We take everyone as human being, welcome. So what do they say? They also quote Bible?
Devotee (2): They say that their priests tell them, "You just listen to me and forget about the Bible."
Prabhupāda: And who are you? Then I can say also, "You hear me. Forget about Bible." Anyone can say. Why the priest? Wherefrom the priest has come? Has he dropped from the sky? (laughter) That's it. Everyone can say, "My dear priest, you hear me. Don't talk of yourself. You hear me." Everyone can say. Then? How things will be adjusted? The priest is also a man; I am also man. If he can say like that, I can say like that. Then who will make adjustment? Who is correct? Hm? How it will be adjusted? If everyone will propose something, and who will say, "Now, out of so many proposals, this is correct." That means chaotic condition. If everyone says, "What I say, you hear." Then who will hear? Everyone will say only. Who will hear? That is going on actually. And rascal Vivekananda says, "Everyone's opinion is good."
Prabhupāda: That we also say, but that body not... That "dormant" means dormant in the soul, not in the body. That is the knowledge. Dormant it is, but dormant in the soul, not in the body.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have to admit that it's a different body because if the body is simply made of food and they are eating so much and evacuating so much, then it has to be a different body.
Prabhupāda: No, it is different body, undoubtedly. If they foolishly argue, that is different thing. Therefore rascal. Their argument has no value. How you can be the same body? So many changes. The body is changed. (to Indian man:) What is that? It was not garam?
Indian man (1): No, garam not.
Prabhupāda: So this argument, how he can refute, that he has died twenty-two years?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, he can also say that he has lived twenty-two years, because he has no perception of any life before that time. He can't remember living before.
Brahmānanda: "Before, I was not alive. Now I am alive, so I have lived for twenty-two years. Before, I was dead; I was not alive. Now I am alive, so I've been alive for twenty-two years."
Prabhupāda: So before, you were not alive. Then how your life came?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The combination of...
Prabhupāda: Do it. Again foolishness. These rascals... (laughs) Then, if you can create life, then where is the question of dead body? You create again. Give life again. If you are so competent that you can give life, combination, then this dead body is there. You bring chemicals and inject.
Prabhupāda: Not to the fools and rascals. So first of all, to give them chance, let them come to the temple, take prasādam, hear saṅkīrtana, offer obeisances by imitating others. In this way, when they become little devotee, then instruct. Otherwise it will be useless. You'll waste your time by arguing.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You have given the example that the field has to be plowed before the seed is sown, cultivated.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cyavana: The mind has to want that higher taste.
Prabhupāda: Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). So this process... Bring the... Invite them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, give them prasādam. Everyone will take part in this way, not immediately instructing that "You are not this body; you are soul." He will not be able to.
Cyavana: It's too difficult.
Prabhupāda: Therefore this process is recommended. Caitanya Mahāprabhu argued with Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, not with ordinary public. Ordinary public—"Go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and dancing." Never argued, neither He discussed Bhāgavatam. For ordinary public-four hours' kīrtana, chanting and dancing, bas. And then give them sufficient prasādam: "Take prasāda." This process... Because unless he has got little śraddhā, he will simply put some false argument and waste your time. Not in the beginning. Mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. First of all create him a devotee a little. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa-harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21)—only. Because this is Kali-yuga, people are so fallen, so downtrodden, so rascal, cats and dogs. It is very difficult. But this process—chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, giving them chance to hear it and take prasādam—that will cure. And that is easily accepted by anyone. It doesn't matter what he is. Anyone will accept. To chant and dance and take prasādam—no one will disagree. So this is the process. When they come to the temple... Just like these boys. You are offering obeisances; they are also offering. But that will go to their credit, to become bhakta. This process should be adopted. Not in the beginning, but in the beginning give them prasādam, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And try to sell some book. You pay something. That means he is giving some service, the hard-earned money. That will also go to his credit. And then, when he'll concerned that "I have paid for it. Let me see what this nonsense has written. All right. Read." And that will also convince him. This is the way. He'll keep this body, book, and show some friend, so the infection will go on.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is... Kṛṣṇa says. That is His desire. Sarva-dharmān pa..., mām ekāṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is Kṛṣṇa's desire.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So Kṛṣṇa is not causing everyone to forget Him.
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa's desire is open to everyone. We don't accept it. That is our obstinacy. Kṛṣṇa says "There is soul." We do not say. "No, there is no soul." This is our position. Kṛṣṇa says, "Within this body there is soul," and we don't accept. We'll argue. This is our position. He is giving direct instruction, "Yes, there is soul," but we don't accept. Disobedient.
Cyavana: But if Kṛṣṇa knows that we will suffer in this material world, why does He let us go away from Him? Why doesn't He keep us there?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Cyavana: If Kṛṣṇa knows that we will suffer here in this material world if we come here, why does He let us go?
Prabhupāda: Why the thief goes to the prisonhouse? He knows that "If I go to the prisonhouse, I will be put into distress."
Harikeśa: They just don't want to accept, no matter what.
Prabhupāda: No, no, even they have no argument, they have no logic, so what is the use of talking? What is the use? Simply waste of time.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is it better if someone argues against our philosophy or if someone doesn't argue at all and simply doesn't accept it either?
Prabhupāda: No, if he argues... If you can understand that by argument, if you come to conclusion, they will accept, then talk with them. If they remain dog, what is the use of talking with a dog? Dog will never accept any argument. It will remain dog. So better avoid that.
Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's very difficult to give good instruction to a dog. It simply barks.
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore I say, they should be neglected.
Harikeśa: Just give them prasādam and kīrtana.
Prabhupāda: That's all, yes. No argument. "Please come and take prasādam." That much mercy should be shown to them.
Prabhupāda: I don’t find. Simply foolishness I accept. And rascal, foolish like you, will believe. (laughter)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They argue that five thousand years ago they have no history, so they think that before that time…
Prabhupāda: "They think." That is their rascaldom.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Formerly there was no civilization. Therefore like monkey.
Prabhupāda: "They think." That is their… We don’t "think." We have got millions of years' history. Why we shall think with them, with these rascals? They may think, the rascal. A child may think like something, but a elderly man will not think like that. Because they are thinking like that, we have to think with them?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? Because the rascals are thinking in some way, we have to believe that? First of all let them prove that they are sane men. They are all insane rascals. Why shall I take their words? We are taking words from Kṛṣṇa, who is accepted the Supreme by all the ācāryas, all the great sages. Why shall I go to this rascal Darwin? We are not so fools. We cannot accept.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually our theory, even taken as a theory, that the soul is there and enters the body, and when the soul leaves, the body is finished, it's very palatable, very palatable. Very few people argue with it. It's simply that they've been miseducated. Therefore they are cheated. They accept.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difficulty, that, wholesale people have been miseducated. That is our protest. And this miseducated is ruling the whole world, all rascals (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...cheated in some business transaction, they become very mad, angry, so much so sometimes they want to kill the opposing party. But when they are cheated in this way they don't mind so much, because their sense gratification, either way, is there. So only people who are serious about understanding the truth will accept these things.
Prabhupāda: We therefore submit our statement as it is stated in Bhagavad-gītā. You cannot say that we are cheating, because we are presenting something authorized, which is accepted. That's all. So we are not cheater. You may accept or not accept; that is your business. But we are presenting something standard. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Science is based on experimentation. They will argue, "So how can we experiment with the theories that you are putting forward?"
Prabhupāda: Our theory or your theory?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Your theory. Our theory.
Prabhupāda: What is that "our theory"?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That the soul is the life force.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how can we prove that? How can we make the spirit soul appear?
Prabhupāda: How can you bring life force? Have you brought? Then how you can question this? If you have brought life otherwise, then you can question. As you cannot bring life otherwise, you have to accept this. This is the proof. Not only that: because the soul is there, therefore I am talking with you. I am replying your inquiries. And when the soul is not there, even the tongue is there, even the ear is there, I cannot hear you, I cannot reply you. (break) ...instrument is there by which I talk, why he cannot talk?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The spirit soul is not present.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You cannot see because you are worthless. But those who are worthful, those who have attained liberation, they can see. Just like it is stated in the Bhāgavata, apasyat puruṣam purnam. Apasyat: "He saw, Vyāsadeva." Huh... Bhakti-yogena manasi samyak pranihite amale apasyat (SB 1.7.4). When your heart will be completely cleared of all this material conception, then you can see. So long you are materially contaminated, it is not possible. That's a fact. But bhakti-yogena samyak pranihite amale. When the heart is cleansed, that is the process. Therefore we are insisting that "Let them hear Hare Kṛṣṇa." Ceto-darpana-marjanam (CC Antya 20.12). The heart will be cleansed. Then they will understand. All of a sudden, if you speak all this philosophy "Kṛṣṇa said," they will accept that "Why Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man. Why shall I..."
Brahmānanda: They will argue.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. Because the heart is full of dirty things, so therefore ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, this is the process. First of all cleanse the heart. Just like slate. If it is unclean, or the mirror, if it is unclean, you cannot see. So you have to cleanse his heart. That we can do. The Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra... And that is proof. Otherwise how could you come to this camp unless the heart is cleansed? That's a proof.
Prabhupāda: This is the... This is the process. So this is the process. So now, when he will say, "All right, you can say what you want to say," then, he sādhava: "You are a great personality, nobleman." He may be a loafer class, (laughter) but give him all honor: "You are so great and so exalted," he sādhava, "and so honest." He sādhava. "My only submission is that whatever you have learned, you forget. Whatever nonsense you have learned..." Don't say "nonsense." (laughter) But we must know that he is a pakkā, rascal, nonsense. (laughs) So don't say directly, "nonsense." Say, "You are the great personality. So kindly, whatever you have learned, forget." "Then what shall I do?" He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya durāt: "Kick out whatever you nonsense learned." "Then what shall I do?" Now, caitanya-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam: "Kindly be submissive to Lord Caitanya, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This is our program. No argument. Because he is a rascal, what is the use of arguing with him? He's a rascal number one. You know that. You cannot expect any good argument from the rascals and fools. Where is the logic? Their logic is to beat them with shoes. That is the only logic. But that, if you do that, then you'll not be able to preach. But otherwise that is the only logic, to beat them with shoes. Argumentum vaculum. You know this logic? In logic we have read. There is one logic, argumentum... You know this?
Cyavana: That is Latin.
Prabhupāda: You do not know; therefore you have to learn. If you want to remain rascal, fool, and still you want to know, that is not possible. You have to know from the real source. Then you'll know. But if you keep yourself in the rascal platform, then how you will know? Just like you have to go to a school to learn things. So how you can learn at home? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You have to go in order to understand that science. So how do you argue, keeping yourself in darkness? In darkness you cannot see anything. "Oh, I do not see anything; therefore there is nothing." Is that very good reason? You are blind, you cannot see the darkness. That is another thing. But things are there. You make your eyes operated and manifest your vision. Then you'll see. Therefore, ajñāna-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayā cakṣur-unmīlitaṁ yena tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ. Everyone is blind, in darkness. He cannot see anything. So one who opens the eyes, jñānāñjana-śalākayā, by the torch of knowledge, he is guru. This is description of guru. If you are blind and have a blind guru, that is no use. Guru means who is not blind. I may be blind. Then that will be effective. This is no reason, "I cannot see." What you are? You can see? You cannot see even the president, and you want to see God without being qualified? This is laymans', rascal's reason, "I cannot see. I do not see." What you are? What you can see? You do not first of all evaluate what is your position, and you want to see something. The formula is there.
Devotee (5): They're paying you respects, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hm? Oh. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Yaśomatīnandana: No one has any chance against your philosophy. No one has any chance. Many times people start arguing. Within five or ten minutes they are completely calmed down. And after fifteen minutes, "Because we started arguing, we have learned so much from you."
Prabhupāda: That is sane man.
Indian man (8): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break)
Dr. Patel: Why I come so early and all that. Shall I say, sir?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: No, if they caught, go to the jail and when there is trial you should explain that "This is very important book. The government should allow to sell."
Alanath: If the policemen liked us, but the law is strict.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to take defense from the law. You present in the court the professors' opinion, how they are giving standing order. Why the state should restrain distributing knowledge? Do they want to keep their men in darkness? You have to preach like that. (break)...University is the most important university in Europe. They read our books. They order standing order. So why this loafer state prohibit?
Alanath: ...these explanations, they always argue, "If we allow you to sell your books, then we must allow everybody to sell on the street."
Prabhupāda: No. But you must consider the importance of... (break) Everybody submits application for becoming high-court judge. Will it be granted? There must be discrimination. (break) Thank you very much for your kindness. Yes. I am very pleased. Thank you. (end)
Prabhupāda: They're all theories. The same experiment. To find out who is my father.
Harikeśa: All these guys are very dry.
Prabhupāda: It has no meaning.
Harikeśa: There's just talking. No value whatsoever. You can't even argue nicely with these men. They're just...
Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot argue with dogs.
Harikeśa: Waste of time. They'll simply keep on barking.
Prabhupāda: But we can place our, what is called, facts, as we learn from Kṛṣṇa, and try to defend it. That is argument.
Harikeśa: Then if somebody has any intelligence left, he'll take it.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot begin with this sun. The beginning of educating is that put this thesis, as Kṛṣṇa is putting, that, that this body is not all in all. Within the body, there is soul.
| Page Title: | Argue (Conversations 1974 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 06 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=91, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 91 |