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Argue (Conversations 1968 - 1973)

Expressions researched:
"argue" |"argued" |"arguer" |"argues" |"arguing"

Notes from the compiler: VedaBase query: argue or argued or argues or arguing or arguer not "may argue*"@ 5 not "might argue"@4

Conversations and Morning Walks

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk at Stow Lake -- March 23, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Because memory is reducing, therefore nature is helping to manufacture so many machines.

Mālatī: Is that why people are making these machines, because they can't remember? Is that a sign of Kali that there's more machines to help people?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. And nowadays in the courts, they use machines. The judges also cannot remember what has been argued between the parties. So they take this tape recorder and give judgement. Because the argument is going on for two days, three days, how much he can remember? And when he gives judgement he has to take consideration of all the arguments, then give his judgement. So this machine helps.

Questions and Answers -- Montreal, August 26, 1968:

Prabhupāda: So your question, Rukmiṇī's question, Lord Caitanya's opulence... There are six kinds of opulences: richness, then fame, strength, influence, beauty, education and renunciation. So He exhibited all these six. He was very beautiful; therefore His name is Gaurasundara. Very beautiful-tall and stout and strong. There was no comparison of His beauty at that time, He was so beautiful, fair complexion. This time He did not appear in black complexion because people after fair complexion. So... And son of a very respectable brāhmaṇa family, and very highly educated. His scholarly manifestation you'll find in the explanation of one verse:

ātmārāmāś ca munayo
nirgranthā apy urukrame
kurvanty ahaitukīṁ bhaktim
ittham-bhūta-guṇo hariḥ

This verse was twice explained, two times explained: once before Sanatāna Gosvāmī and once before Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was considered at that time to be the greatest learned man in India. At that time nyāya-śāstra, logic, amongst the learned scholar logic is the greatest weapon to get victory over His opponent. So learned scholar is always a very learned scholar in logic, nyāya-śāstra. So this logic was taught in Bihar, Dharvanga. India, in different parts of India, different kinds of education was imparted. In Benares, the Mayavāda philosophy was very prominent. In Dharvanga, logic was very prominent. In Navadvīpa, philosophy was very prominent, and nyāya also. Similarly, in Bharampura, Bharatpura. There are many places, just like at the present moment there are many places, university. So He was great logician, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In His boyhood He would ask His contemporary friends to argue with Him on a subject matter, and He'll defeat him. And again He'll establish it.

Press Interview -- December 30, 1968, Los Angeles:
Journalist: Well, yes, obviously "Thou shall not kill" is an ethic, and it's timeless and it's valid, but man is not really interested in...

Prabhupāda: They are not interested in religion. It is simply a makeshow, showbottle. Then how they can be happy? If you do not follow the regulative principles, then where is your religion? Journalist: I'm not arguing with you. I couldn't agree with you more. I'm in total agreement. It doesn't make any sense. "Thou shalt not kill," "Thou shalt worship no other Gods before Me," "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ass," "Thy shall honor thy father and thy mother," those are beautiful ethics, but they're not obeyed. Prabhupāda: "Thou shall not kidnap your neighbor's wife." Journalist: Wife, covet. Prabhupāda: So who is following this? Journalist: No one. Very few.

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation With John Lennon, Yoko Ono, and George Harrison -- September 11, 1969, London, At Tittenhurst:

John Lennon: If all mantras are... All mantras just the name of God. Whether it's a secret mantra or an open mantra, it's all the name of God. So it doesn't really make much difference, does it, which one you sing?

Prabhupāda: No. Just like in drug shop they sell all medicine for disease, curing disease. But still, you have to take doctor's prescription to take a particular type of medicine. They will not supply you. If you go to a drug shop and you say, "I am diseased. You give me any medicine," that is not... He'll ask you, "Where is your prescription?" So similarly, in this age, in Kali-yuga age, this mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, is recommended in the śāstras, and great stalwart—we consider Him the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa-Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He preached this. Therefore our principle is everyone should follow. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). We should follow the footprints of great authorities. That is our business. The Vedic mantra says, tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ. If you simply try to argue and try to approach the Absolute, it is very difficult, simply by argument and reasoning, because our arguments and reason are limited because our senses are imperfect. (break) So tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnāḥ. And scriptures, there are different kinds of scriptures. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. Philosophers, every philosopher has got a different opinion, and unless a philosopher defeats other philosopher, he cannot become a big philosopher. So therefore philosophical speculation also will not make a solution. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām. So it is very secret. Then how to get that secret thing? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). You simply follow great personalities, how they have achieved success. So our, this Vaiṣṇava philosophy is to follow the great personality, just like Kṛṣṇa or Caitanya Mahāprabhu or ācāryas of His succession, to take shelter of authority and follow.

Room Conversation With John Lennon, Yoko Ono, and George Harrison -- September 11, 1969, London, At Tittenhurst:

Yoko Ono: I mean the fact that we are doing songwriting and all that. It's a waste of time, isn't it? Without Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, not waste of time. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was chanting simply. Even He was criticized by great sannyāsīs that "You have taken sannyāsa. You do not read Vedānta. You are simply chanting and dancing." He was criticized. But the thing is, when Caitanya Mahāprabhu met such stalwart scholars, He was not lagging behind. Similarly, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is sufficient. There is no doubt about it. But if somebody wants to understand this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra through philosophy, through study, through Vedānta, we are not lacking. We have got books. It is not that Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is insufficient, therefore we are recommending books. No. Not like that. Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is sufficient. But... Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He was chanting, but when there was a Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, when there was a Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, oh, He was ready to argue with him with Vedānta. So we should not be dumb. If somebody comes to argue with Vedānta philosophy, then we must be prepared. When we are preaching, there will be so many people, different types of people will come. Otherwise Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is sufficient. Sufficient. It does not require any education, any reading, anything. Simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and you get the highest perfection. That's a fact.

Discussion with Guests -- December 23, 1969, Boston:

Guest (3): Everything is "it." It's all it.

Prabhupāda: No. That is nonsense. Cold is cold, heat is heat. Only it is acting. You are talking on the material platform. You are not spiritual. You don't talk nonsense. (laughter) No. We have got enough time.

Guest (3): I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just trying to understand, because from what I understand of it there is no difference between...

Prabhupāda: Just try to understand...

Guest (3): No wait. Wait. Just one moment. Cause and effect are all the same thing.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no.

Guest (3): Yes. Sure.

Devotee: What do you mean they're the same thing?

Prabhupāda: This is cotton. The cause is cotton. Will you like to take cotton instead of the shirt?

Guest (3): This is illusion.

Prabhupāda: Not illusion.

Guest (3): Sure.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by illusion? Don't talk nonsense. (laughter) If I gave you lump of cotton instead of this shirt, will you accept it?

Guest (3): I'm sorry. I don't mean to argue. I am sorry.

Discussion with Guests -- December 23, 1969, Boston:

Prabhupāda: You are arguing?

Guest (3): I don't mean to argue with you.

Prabhupāda: No. If I say...

Guest (3): I'm trying to understand something, but you...

Prabhupāda: This is cotton. This is cotton. Everyone knows. But if I give you a lump...

Guest (3): Do you know that? Do you know that for a fact? How do you know this is not illusion? How do you know that? Do we know anything for sure?

Prabhupāda: What proof is that is illusion?

Guest (3): No, no. Wait. The burden of the proof lies on you because I don't claim it is cotton. You claim it is cotton. So...

Prabhupāda: How do you say it is not cotton. First of all prove it.

Guest (3): Initially...

Prabhupāda: No! First of all prove it that it is not cotton.

Discussion with Guests -- December 23, 1969, Boston:

Prabhupāda: Everyone will say it is cotton. Everyone will say it is cotton. That is proof. Everyone will accept this is cotton, made of cotton. Who will say this is not made of cotton? But if I give you a lump of cotton instead of shirt will you accept it?

Guest (3): I apologize. I don't mean to argue with you. I'm just trying to...

Prabhupāda: No, why not?

Guest (1): You speak of God and matter and as matter being the thing which keeps us from seeing God. It seems to me it's something like pride and delusions, myself, and something like this, and ideas that I have.

Prabhupāda: You may have ideas, but I don't agree with your idea. If... I say that anything take it material or spiritual they are different energy of God. Matter is not different from God as it is energy of God, but still matter is not God.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- January 17, 1971, Allahabad:

Guest (1): Accept, I accept everyone. That is no question of accepting or...

Prabhupāda: No, no, your... I have summarized that first of all you have come to inquire from us that our standard of knowledge is Kṛṣṇa. If you accept Kṛṣṇa as the standard of perfection of knowledge, then there is possibility of our talking. Otherwise simply waste of time. Why shall we waste our time? Our standard is Kṛṣṇa. If you are agreeable to accept the standard of Kṛṣṇa, then there is possibility. Just like here is a lawyer. He goes to the lawyer. He speaks, he pleads, on the standard of the lawbooks. If somebody comes, "No, no, I don't accept this," then there is no question of argument. Both the lawyers are arguing. The central point is the lawbook. So you must have a central point on which we shall talk. If you have no central point...

Guest (1): Central point of happiness is there now.

Prabhupāda: Yes, your point is happiness; my point is happiness. That is all right. But what is that happiness? Just like the same example can be that two litigants, they have gone to the court. Their aim is justice. But how that justice can be had, that is an argument and on the point of law. Similarly, everyone's point is happiness. And what is that standard of happiness, that you have to take from some authority. That authority we accept, Kṛṣṇa. And if you don't accept Kṛṣṇa, then we cannot come to the conclusion what is happiness. So you will simply waste our time. Begin ārati. (break) You see? It was... Sometimes the light was coming, sometimes... That means they were adjusting. There was some meeting, adjusting. As soon as it is coming to the real point it was light. And as soon as not in the real point there is no light. So it is a science.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Guest: But I mean to say one thing is, like in Vedas, whatever is written could have been proved like in a scientific way, today... Suppose there is a lab which is scientific. Whatever is said by that lab, that "This is truth," accepted without going to argue into the propriety of it... Suppose you have a scientific knowledge shop or a place, and if this workshop or this scientific institution states, "This is not good. This is not good," a general body accepts, take it for granted, "Yes, scientific body has said so. It is understood. It's..."

Prof. Kotovsky: Hm. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Personally he hasn't got to examine, himself. He takes the statement of an authority and believes him.

Guest: Common person, a common man.

Prabhupāda: So Vedic authorities, authoritative statement, are accepted by the ācāryas. Just like India is governed by the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, and Śaṅkarācārya. They accept in that, and the followers accept them. The benefit is that whether cow dung is pure or impure, I do not waste my time, but because it is stated in the Vedas, I take it, so I save my time. Śruti-pramāṇa. In that way there are different statements in the Vedas for sociology and politics and anything because Vedas means knowledge. Vedas means knowledge. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). Vetti veda vido jñāne. Vid-dhātu, when it is used for knowledge, it is called Veda.

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Dr. Weir: It shows a misconception of the word science.

Prabhupāda: So far I remember, I was also a student of philosophy, Dr. Urquhart, he said the philosophy is science of sciences. The science, there, I mean theory, begins from philosophy. Philosophy is the science of sciences. But according to Vedic verses, a philosopher is not a philosopher if he has not a different opinion from another philosopher, nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na... Therefore, through the philosopher you cannot come to the right conclusion. Tarkeṇa aprāptaś ca. If you simply go on arguing that will also not help you. If you simply read scriptures that will also not help you. Because there are different scriptures. Bible is different from Vedas and Vedas is different from Koran. So tarka... by argument you cannot come to the conclusion, by simply reading scriptures you cannot come to the conclusion. By following the philosophers you cannot come to the conclusion. Therefore the truth is very confidential. Dharmasyārtha... guhyam. It is kept very confidential. Then how to have it? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). You have to follow the great personalities who have actually realized God. That is the conclusion.

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1971, Delhi:

Devotee (1): And he also said, "I've not come to change the law." He did not come to change the law.

Devotee: That's just their standpoint. (indistinct) I don't mean to argue.

Śyāmasundara: The knowledge that we have of Jesus was not direct, but it was written down up to a 100 or 200 years later in another language called Aramaic, and scholars recently have discovered that wherever Jesus refers to fish, distributing fish, that that word actually refers to a type of sea plant that grows in the Sea of Galilee which they make a type of bread out of. And it's not really fish but a type of vegetarian bread. This is what I read in an article. So, we don't have... (laughter)

Devotee (7) (lady): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was a fish on Laksmi's hand yesterday. The Deity in the temple, where Laksmi had her hand up like this, there was a fish here across her hand. What is this?

Prabhupāda: That is a mark, mark.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Gaurachand Gosvami At the Radha-Damodara Temple (Mostly Bengali) -- March 11, 1972, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That means whatever he says, that is authority.

Indian man (2): No, but you see, he argues it out.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (2): He argues it out.

Prabhupāda: Argue, that's all right. But this...

Indian man (2): The trend is that, whatever he says.

Prabhupāda: Gaura-gaṇoddeśa-dīpikā all the ācāryas have accepted.

Indian man (2): But there is a trend now not to accept it. You see, Rādhā-Govindanātha does not accept it. Rādhā-Govindanātha in his big work, he has..., he has not...

Prabhupāda: This Rādhā-Govindanātha, there was some protest against him. He has not accepted Baladeva Vidyābhūṣana also as authority.

Room Conversation -- March 12, 1972, Vrndavana:

Dr. Kapoor: Kṛṣṭa, yes, in Bengali particularly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this Christo word means "anointed." Kṛṣṇa's face is anointed. And love also. And this Christ title was given to Jesus on account of his love for God. So on the whole, the conclusion is Kṛṣṇa or Christo means "love of Godhead."

Dr. Kapoor: No, Mandakara(?) has tried to argue that the entire Kṛṣṇa religion of Śrīmad-Bhāgavata has been borrowed from the West.

Yamunā: How is this possible?

Dr. Kapoor: Eh?

Yamunā: How does he do that chronologically? How is that possible? It's impossible to do that.

Dr. Kapoor: There was some exchange, some people came from Greece here, and just...

Guru dāsa: But the Greek civilization was not developed five thousand years ago.

Yamunā: It wasn't even developed.

Dr. Kapoor: But he doesn't take it so back as five thousand years.

Guru dāsa: So anybody can say anything. (guest laughs)

Prabhupāda: Our authorities, they accept Mandakara(?) is not as good as Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya. We... Nobody can give credit to Mandakara more than these ācāryas or Caitanya. So how his proposition can be accepted?

Dr. Kapoor: So he was knighted, you see, by the British government.

Conversation with Author -- April 1, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: And if still people are unhappy with this movement, then what can be done? (pause)

Author: So you say that you encourage anybody who disagrees with aspects of your philosophy to argue with you?

Prabhupāda: No. We invite everyone, "Please come and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So if one disagrees, why he will come?

Author: But don't you suggest that if somebody feels that they can find fault in your philosophy...

Prabhupāda: Then let him explain what is that fault. Then we can reply. But without fault, if they make some, what is called?

Pradyumna: Complaint?

Prabhupāda: Complaints, that is very difficult thing. What is our fault? Please tell me?

Author: Then sir, I want to ask you about, well... It seems this book is impracticable without the kind of material I want. Now, I don't want to adopt an uncompromising position at all, but I am convinced that you misunderstand my motivations. I don't know how to persuade you that my motivations are good ones, and so therefore I am in a corner, in a cul de sac. Now, the material that I must have in this book is sufficient to be able to persuade people that they are reading about something which is true. That means, for example, that I...

Prabhupāda: So, that books we have already published. To convince people that this is nice movement, we have got dozens of books, and they are selling nicely. Practically we are standing by the sales of our books and literature. How to convince people that this is a nice movement—we are ourselves publishing. You cannot publish better book than what we have done. We know the interest.

Room Conversation with Maharishi Impersonalists -- April 7, 1972, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Because it is the thing required. Therefore it is recommended in the śāstra. Because it is recommended that... What is recommended in the śāstra, spoken in the śāstra, that is perfect. There is no mistake. Therefore it is being accepted. Anywhere we are going, beginning from old man to child, everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is recommended. Our intelligence should be applied there, that what is recommended in the Vedas, that is perfect. There are so many instances. Just like cow dung. You know cow dung? Stool of the cow? So according to Vedic principle, if you touch stool of an animal you become impure. Even my stool, I pass in the WC, and immediately I wash and become purified. Oh, this is my stool, personal, and what to speak of other stool? So stool is impure. But the Vedas say that the stool of cow is pure. So if you argue that "Cow is an animal. So animal stool is impure. How the cow stool can become pure?" that is puzzling, but because it is said by the..., ordered by the Vedas, it is fact. You analyze cow stool; you find all antiseptic matter. So therefore we accept the Vedic injunction as truth. We haven't got to make research. We save time. So according to Vedic civilization, whatever is stated in the Vedas, we take it-fact. That's all. Śruti. Śruti-pramāṇam. Śruti means Vedas. Pramāṇam means evidence. According to Indian system... There are two persons talking, arguing, but the person who can give Vedic evidence, he is victorious. That's all. That is the system. Just like in law court two lawyers are fighting, but the lawyer who is giving evidences from the lawbook, he is accepted by the judge. And therefore, generally you will find, whenever we speak something, we give evidence from the śāstra in Sanskrit, in all our books. That is the way of proving that whatever I am speaking, it is fact. In the Bhāgavata it is already stated, lavaṇyaṁ keśa-dharaṇam. Keśa means hair. To keep long, long hair will be the practice of people because they will think by keeping long hair they look very beautiful.

Room Conversation with Maharishi Impersonalists -- April 7, 1972, Melbourne:

Śyāmasundara: Buddha, Lord Buddha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. About Lord Buddha is also mentioned in the śāstra that Lord Buddha will appear in Gayā Pradesh, in the province of Gayā, and his business will be to cheat the atheists. That is described. Now, how he is cheating? He is the incarnation of God, but he is preaching amongst people who don't believe in God. So he is cheating in this way, that "Yes, there is no God. You hear me." But he is God. The people amongst whom he is preaching, they don't believe in God, but they accept Lord Buddha. But he is God. So by cheating, he is making others to worship God. God is there. But superficially they think, "We don't believe in God. We believe in Lord Buddha." And Lord Buddha is God. Therefore in the Bhāgavata it is said that his business will be cheat the atheist class of men. Sura-dviṣām. Sammohita-sura-dviṣām. Sammohita means bewilder. But his philosophy is that to make the people sinless. Ahiṁsā. "Don't kill." That is the greatest sin. So he is propagating that "Let these people be saved from the greatest sinful activities." Lord Buddha appeared... He also appeared in India. Why? He was also Hindu. He was kṣatriya, king. He promulgated this philosophy, ahiṁsā, when there was unnecessary killing of animals. According to Vedas, animal can be killed in sacrifice. That also to give a new life. But people misinterpreted and they began to kill animals like anything with the evidence of..., "In the Vedas animal killing is sanctioned." So Lord Buddha appeared, just being compassionate to the poor animals. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita-paśu-ghātam. Sadaya. He became very compassionate, that "All these poor animals are being killed unnecessarily." So he promulgamated a new type of religion-ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ. "Don't commit violence. If I pinch your body, you feel pain. You should not pinch others." That is his religion. So, but, he... Because others, they will argue, "Oh, in the Vedas..." As I told you, that Vedas is the evidence, so "Here is... Animal killing is ordered. How you are stopping it?" Therefore he said, "I don't care for your Vedas."

Room Conversation -- May 4, 1972, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. That should be the attitude. That is the way of understanding. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. Those who are Tattva-darśiḥ, those who have seen the truth, we have to take knowledge from them. That is the direction in the Bhagavad-gītā, not from the third-class men. One who has seen, one who has known, you have to take knowledge from him, tattva-darśiḥ. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to understand by surrendering, by rendering service and by question, three things. You cannot question simply. There must be service and surrender; then question will be nice. And if all of a sudden you come and question, that answer will not be sufficient. So I am drinking this water because there is taste. At this time, if you can give me some other juice, I'll not like. I'll like to take, drink water, because there is particular taste that will satisfy my thirst. That thirst-quenching taste is Kṛṣṇa. So immediately you can remember Kṛṣṇa, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). There is no need of seeing Kṛṣṇa. You can perceive Kṛṣṇa while drinking water if you have got such power of perception. And the hints are already there in the Bhagavad-gītā. You can argue, "Where is Kṛṣṇa? I do not see Kṛṣṇa. How can I..." Well, Kṛṣṇa says, "All right, you try to realize Me in this way. While you drink water you know that taste is Myself." So you can see or perceive Kṛṣṇa by drinking water. So everyone is drinking water. Who cannot perceive Kṛṣṇa? What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa's giving hints, "Worship Me like that." And God, at the present moment, God can be seen eye-to-eye, but He can be perceived anumananda(?). What is that word? Parasya...?

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Prabhupāda: That has spoiled our Indian culture. That has spoiled our Indian culture. Everyone become learned man; everyone become a spiritualist. That's another... So best thing is to... Why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa as the most learned man? That will save you. Everyone accepts Him, all the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Lord Caitanya. So why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa? Why you're searching after learned man? Here is the best learned man. Simple truth. If you simply argue, that is a different thing. But if you want really learned man, Kṛṣṇa is here. Take Kṛṣṇa as He is; then you learn everything. So I shall go now. What is the time?

Satsvarūpa: It's eight-thirty now.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...fruits... Just accept Kṛṣṇa, the most learned man. Follow His teaching. Your life is perfect. And practically you see. They have accepted Kṛṣṇa the supreme teacher, and how their life is becoming perfect. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. Unless one is very, very intelligent he cannot come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. As Kṛṣṇa is very cunning, intelligent, so His devotee is also very cunning and intelligent. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. Kṛṣṇa also says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births' struggling, when he actually becomes wise, jñānavān," māṁ prapadyate, "he surrenders to Me." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: (BG 7.19) "That mahātmā is very rare to be found." Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritaḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam (BG 9.13). This is mahātmā. This is description of mahātmā.

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Prabhupāda: Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, the same. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, the same. Kṛṣṇa means Viṣṇu-tattva. So Viṣṇu-tattva has many forms. So any Viṣṇu form will do.

rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan
nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu
kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
(Bs. 5.39)

Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu. He has got different forms, Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, many other forms, Govinda, Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa. So rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu, kṛṣṇaḥ svayam (Bs. 5.39). Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). These are the Vedic statements. And Kṛṣṇa also said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore to become wise after many, many births of struggling or cultivating knowledge, when one comes to perfection of knowledge he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. So therefore one who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, he is the most perfect man, even without knowing Kṛṣṇa. Just like gopīs. They did not know Kṛṣṇa, whether He is God or some... Simply loved Kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa is very beautiful." That's all. So their perfection is the highest. They did not try to understand what Kṛṣṇa, what is Vedānta, what is Bhagavad-gītā. At that time Bhagavad-gītā was not spoken even. Kṛṣṇa was at that time a boy. But they loved Kṛṣṇa with their heart and soul. Kṛṣṇa was their everything. And therefore their position is the topmost. So somehow or other, we have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then our life is successful. Otherwise not. So we do it knowingly or unknowingly; the effect is the same. Fire you touch knowingly or unknowingly; it will act. It is not that if a child touches fire without knowing, knowledge, it is not that fire will not burn. And similarly... That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Kāmāt krodhād bhayāt. Some way or other, come to Kṛṣṇa. Just like gopīs came to Kṛṣṇa-kāmāt. Kṛṣṇa was very beautiful, so they wanted to associate with Kṛṣṇa. Bhayāt, Kaṁsa and Śiśupāla, they were afraid of Kṛṣṇa, but still, they became Kṛṣṇa conscious, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Bhayāt. Krodhāt. Śiśupāla, krodhāt. He was very much envious of Kṛṣṇa. Pūtanā-rākṣasī, she wanted to kill Kṛṣṇa. So if kamāt-krodhād-bhayāt coming to Kṛṣṇa, they get perfection, what to speak of loving Kṛṣṇa? What is their position? So some way or other, you come to Kṛṣṇa. That is our mission. Yena tena prakāreṇa manaḥ kṛṣṇa niveśayet. Somehow or other, just attach your mind to Kṛṣṇa; your life is perfect. And what is the objection? Kṛṣṇa is most beautiful, Kṛṣṇa is most opulent, Kṛṣṇa is more powerful, Kṛṣṇa giving you assurance, "I give you protection," and still, if you don't take to Kṛṣṇa it is misfortune, simply misfortune. Unfortunate. So you remain. If you want to remain unfortunate, who can help you? So instead of arguing, you just surrender to Kṛṣṇa and make your life successful. That's it. That is wanted. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma...

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Guest (2): Is he in Dallas? (several people talking, prasāda being served)

Prabhupāda: What is that? Milk? So many nice preparations given by Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I eat meat? Where is the necessity? Human being must discriminate what he shall eat. If you say, "Everything is food," then stool is also food for the hog. But the food for the human being must be different from the hog.

Guest (2): Is it our duty to convince everybody and to argue with people and say, "Now..." Because most of the people would argue for, "Where is your protein?" "Needs his protein," and you know, when they talk in terms of body consciousness rather than Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It's very hard to argue with that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have argued. All these European boys, I had to argue with them. (laughter)

Lucille: (indistinct) in Bombay and the first thing he did was argue with me.

Prabhupāda: Big, big swamis, they are advocating, "Eat meat."

Guest (2): Is that right?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Ramakrishna Mission, they eat meat.

Guest (2): I don't think so.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Room Conversation with Kenneth Keating, U.S. Ambassador to India -- October 14, 1972, New Delhi:

Ambassador: That's right.

Prabhupāda: So there is some defect, and here is a chance to rectify that defect. Here is a chance. I can argue with any scientist, any philosopher, that this is the only remedy to save people from frustration. This is the only remedy. Why it should go unnoticed by your country, such a great, who are willing to help others, willing to help. You started the United Nations in your country for that. Let us do something tangible, scientific, that people will be happy.

Ambassador: Oh, I think the, what this young man says is very encouraging, that some of this is now being slowly inculcated in our colleges and universities.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Of all the movements, religious movements from India that have gone there, this one has shown the most potency of all, by far...

Ambassador: Yes.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 25, 1973, Jakarta:
Prabhupāda: He's called highest, brāhmaṇa. Brahma-jānāti, one who knows Brahman. He's called highest. And the lowest means that he has got this body, human form of body, but he is acting like animal. Just like cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is God. So any person who is not understanding, or trying to understand what is God, he's the lowest of the mankind. Because in the human form of life, it is the chance to understand what is God, but he's misusing it. He's using this body just like cats and dogs. They eat, sleep, have sex intercourse, and die. So these things are there. But if somebody argues that you are saying lowest of the mankind but we see so many Dr. Radhakrishnans, they also do not admit. Therefore the word is used, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. They appear to be very highly learned scholars but their real knowledge has been taken by māyā. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. Āsuri- bhāva. Why he can remain so? Because āsuri-bhāva, there is no God. That is their determination. There is no God. Therefore their merit is being misused, they have become the lowest of the mankind. They have become the Fool No. 1 and all that so-called education, academics, knowledge has been taken away by māyā. This is... So we test only whether he's a devotee of God. If he's not a devotee of God then we take either of these: he must be the rascal, or lowest of the mankind, or simply using the merit for sinful activities, or his knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Immediately, we have no difficulty to understand what class of man he is. The test is whether he has got any sense of understanding God. If not then he comes to this group. It is not very difficult to study man, what he is. We have got the formula in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Morning Walk -- April 25, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He cannot say like this.

Prabhupāda: Then, then what is this? It is insanity. What you cannot do, if you say: "I can do it," Then it is insanity.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They just argue without any background.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just for argument...

Prabhupāda: That means the so-called education making them all rascals and fools. That's all. The education has no value. We therefore say that you close all these universities. You are simply producing rascals and fools. That's all.

Brahmānanda: Asses.

Prabhupāda: Asses, mūḍhāḥ. Unless one comes to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we don't give any value to so-called education, advancement of knowledge. We don't give any value. Our only formula is harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no value. Immediately reject him. He has no value of his life. We are advocating Kṛṣṇa consciousness not on sentiment, on the value of life. That these men are being carried away by whims without any value of life. Let us save them. That is our mission. Just like a, a foolish person is going in, on the ocean. So it is: "Oh, why you are going that way? Where you are going? You are a madman." This is the duty.

Morning Walk -- April 25, 1973, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: To confirm the symptoms.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Confirm the symptoms. If he says: "Yes," then immediately diagnosis is there. And as soon as diagnosis is there, the medicine is there. Simple method. Similarly, astrologers, they will see the constellation of the stars, and then the formula is there. "If this star is now with this star, if that planet is with that planet, then this is the result." So this Āyurvedic astrologer and physician requires little clear brain. Otherwise, very nice. The research work is already there. Just like we are. What is our research? Kṛṣṇa says: paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ (BG 8.20). "There is another nature." We believe it. We have not gone to another nature. But Kṛṣṇa says: "There is another nature, spiritual nature." This is, this material nature, inferior nature, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4), apareyam, this is inferior. Apareyam itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām (BG 7.5). There is another superior nature. What is that? The living force. Who will argue? So we have got very easy method. And because we are receiving all this information from the most perfect, therefore our knowledge is perfect. That's all. And for all these rascals, śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Unnecessarily they're laboring. They cannot come to the right conclusion. Therefore harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāh. Oh, what is the good quality? If you unnecessarily work without any result, then what is your qualification?

Brahmānanda: Mūḍha.

Morning Walk -- May 2, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That's all. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Anyway he has admitted, "I do not know." That is sufficient defeat for him. But they are shameless. In spite of being defeated, they won't admit that "I am defeated." Not gentlemen. Formerly between two learned scholars there will be argument. If one is defeated... Just like Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. As soon as he became defeated, he became His disciple. That's all. That was the system. Not that we go on arguing for hours, and one is defeated; still, he remains the same. No. If you are defeated, then you must accept the other party as your master. That was the system. As soon as he said that I do not know, he should have become your disciple. That is the system. "If you do not know why you have come to teach me."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He should come and become a disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: No, Prabhupāda... No. We want everyone to become Kṛṣṇa's disciple. That is our mission. We are disciplic succession. The original master is Kṛṣṇa. (end)

Room Conversation with Krishna Tiwari -- May 22, 1973, New York:

Prabhupāda: Yes! They are fools.

Krishna Tiwari: (laughing) We..., I don't know. Maybe. I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Maybe? Yes!

Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a fact because we are, we are arguing. We are under the laws of nature.

Krishna Tiwari: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And there must be one who is above the laws of nature.

Krishna Tiwari: No problem, yes.

Prabhupāda: No, no problem. This is a fact.

Krishna Tiwari: We do not know for fact, and nobody else does.

Prabhupāda: What?

Krishna Tiwari: See, when we do not..., we say we do not know, we are just being modest.

Śyāmasundara: But he knows.

Krishna Tiwari: I don't know about that.

Śyāmasundara: But he's trying to tell if you'll listen.

Krishna Tiwari: I, I have heard about those things, but I just don't know about the, how to believe...

Prabhupāda: That means, that means you are unbeliever.

Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Why not? If He has given, He can withdraw also.

Mr. Wadell: Oh, I don't... Well, we have a rather strange view of God...

Prabhupāda: No, you may have strange view. We are arguing. As soon as you say God has given you intellect, He can withdraw also your intellect.

Mr. Wadell: But you see, what we have also to explain—why all men are not good. Now, if God chose, He could force all men to be good, but that is not the way.

Prabhupāda: No, God has given you intellect to become good, but because you disobey God, you have become bad.

Mr. Wadell: But if God is all-powerful and He cared to use His power...

Prabhupāda: No, He does not interfere with your little independence.

Mr. Wadell: This is the point which you were trying to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā God says that "You surrender unto Me." That means, "If you like, you surrender." God is not forcing, "you must." He is not forcing.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: A child is innocent, and his father is ignorant. His father may be knowing something, and purposely does not take. That is ignorance. Or he thinks that "What is the use of taking it?" That is ignorance. And innocent, he does not know anything. Actually, practically, there is little difference, but if you ask, you can differentiate in this way. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). This mūḍha is ignorant, and he does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone, according to our Vedic culture, for the last five thousand years, everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but he'll not do. He will say, "Why Kṛṣṇa will be the Supreme Lord? I am also." This is offense. This is offense. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. This offense is created on account of sinful life. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. Innocent has no sinful life. Otherwise there is no difference between ignorant and innocent. Purposefully, when one remains ignorant, foolish, purposefully... He'll not accept. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. According to Vedic culture, Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But there are many purposefully who will not accept Him. What can be done? They will argue. They will not accept the ācāryas. All the ācāryas, they accept Kṛṣṇa. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. They are the leaders of Vedic culture at the pre..., in the present moment. They are accepting. But other, foolish people, they are not accepting. māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. They have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā: their knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Although they appear to be very learned, but actually, a sense of knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. Real thing they do not understand, nor, or refuse to understand. So they are offenders. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi. "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān āsurīṣv eva yoniṣu (BG 16.19). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Dviṣataḥ krūrān. They're envious, krūra. "I put them into the hellish condition of life." These, these Europeans and American boys, they're innocent. I have told them that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." They have accepted. That's all. Others, they will argue, "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be...?" They're offenders. Yes. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa; still they will argue.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Guest (7): Purposeful, knowing that, knowingly that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord and Supreme Authority, even then, if they ignore it...

Prabhupāda: No. Knowingly means that every Indian knows that Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At least... The every Indian, at least Hindus, they perform Janmāṣṭamī, accepting Kṛṣṇa. But still, they will not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality. They'll bring many other competitors. "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be...? I have got Durgā. I have got this, Śiva. I have got that. I have got that. I have got that." This is going on as Hinduism. So many gods. So many gods. Although the Vedic literature says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). In Bhagavad-gītā... Everyone reads Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā it says, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: (BG 7.7) "There is no more superior than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: (BG 10.8) "Everything is emanation from Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). These things are there, but they'll not accept. Therefore they are offenders. Otherwise where is the difficulty? God is one. That is accepted. Eko brahma. God cannot be two. God is one. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām ekaḥ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). One nitya, one eternal, one living being..., that is Supreme. We are living being. We are also nitya, eternal. But he is nityo nityānām. He is the chief of the nityas. He's the chief of the living entities. So that is chief. Kṛṣṇa personally says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is no more superior living being than Me." So these things are there in the Vedas. And they are supposed to be Vedic scholars, but they do not know the simple thing. So in that way they are ignorant. They read the Vedic literatures, but they do not understand, or they misinterpret in a different way for their own purpose. So they are, they're offender. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this situation, that "God is impersonal, and, everyone can become God, or everyone is God." This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this havoc. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi. "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore they cannot make any progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That difficulty is there—offenders. And later on, there are so many institutions. They say that "You can create your God. You can become God." That is going on. "Whatever you think as God, that is God." So how one can make progress under these circumstances? One gentleman was arguing with me... He was supporting Rama-Krishna Mission. He said, "Even stool I consider God. It is God." (laughter) He came to this point. "If I worship stool as God, then it is also God."

Revatīnandana: He would take it as prasāda? (laughter)

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So this is going on. What can be done? And here, in the western countries, they are innocent. I have told them that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, Supreme God." They have accepted it. Just like child. So they are making progress. And people are astonished, "How these westerners, they have become so nice devotee?" But they have accepted it without any argument.

Revatīnandana: I used to argue all the time. (laughter) You used to win every time.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the miracle. I simply present that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swamiji, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing. Not seriously.

Room Conversation With Three College Students -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Here is Nārada, Devala, Vyāsa, authority.

Student (3): No, we're not saying we do, but some people do, anyway.

Student (1): Yeah, they'll argue just as convincingly as you.

Prabhupāda: But everyone can say, "I am God." Then how you'll understand? If Guru Mahārāja says, I can say also. He can say. Then go on studying who is God. The same question: Everyone says, "I am your father," "I am your father," "I am your father," but whom you have to believe? You have to believe only mother.

Student (1): Okay, well who's the mother in this case?

Revatīnandana: The śāstra, revealed scriptures. They give information about the father.

Prabhupāda: śāstra-cakṣuṣā.

Student (1): What about the Bible? That'll tell me something else, altogether.

Revatīnandana: No, it won't. It will tell you almost identical information. If you go in the Bible, it will say, "God is your father." Father means he is sufficient to beget a son. Now, if God is a void, how can a son come out from a void? But if God is a person, then he can have son.

Prabhupāda: We have no such experience.

Room Conversation With Three College Students -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: And where is our experience—from void a son is born? Where is your experience? Suppose you are a person. You have dropped from the void?

Student (1): I'm not arguing for Divine Light or anything. I'm just trying to...

Revatīnandana: No, just take it philosophically. Can a person come from a void? Void means zero. But a person is not zero. He has so many personal qualities.

Student (1): I mean, if you stick to strict logic, you can't, no, right. I mean this isn't logical, is it?

Revatīnandana: Sometimes by logic you can find out what is false. What is truth, that we get from authority.

Student (1): You say it is logic because, say, everything in that book fits in with everything else, maybe. So it's a total form of logic in itself.

Student (3): Your logic starts from the assumption that the book is correct.

Prabhupāda: Then why you are arguing? That is logic. Why you are arguing? Why don't you accept what I say? Why you are arguing? That is logic.

Room Conversation With Three College Students -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Therefore you are taking the shelter of logic. You are taking the shelter.

Student (1): Logic... Logic is arguing, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: No, logic means argument, reasoning. Our logic is because Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all great persons, authorities, we accept. Our logic is simple.

Student (1): But Christians might say the same thing. They might say, "Look at the Bible, This is our logic."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. They accept God; we accept God. The only difference is they do not know who is God, but we know who is God.

Student (1): No, they know who is God.

Prabhupāda: No.

Revatīnandana: You won't get any good information about God. "God is great. God created"—finished. That's not very much information. God's son? A little more information about God's son.

Student (1): But you've got no more right to say you know who is God than they have.

Revatīnandana: Oh, well, we have a lot more information about God, you see.

Student: In which way?

Revatīnandana: In these Vedas. There's a difference between the arithmetic book you get in the first grade of school and the calculus book in terms of the amount of information. We can tell you more about God because the Vedas give more information than the Bible. But the basic principle—"God is there. God is a person"—is in both places.

Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is son of God. Therefore God must be person. A person can beget a son.

Student (1): God exists now.

Prabhupāda: Yes, always exists.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Father Tanner: Hm. But, you see, knowledge and attainment aren't the same thing. You know, I may know that it is wrong to be an alcoholic, and maybe I am not actually, physically an alcoholic, but it doesn't mean to say that interiorally I have cleansed myself of all addiction. The fact that you are not drinking for a year doesn't mean to say that you have overcome the intoxicant urge if that is in you, although you know it is wrong.

Prabhupāda: No, this argument is not very strong. Just like one foodstuff, freshly made, it is fresh. But if somebody argues that if it remains four days more, it will become bad, that is surmisation. Now it is fresh. We take it fresh. What will happen in future, that is no consideration. In future, everyone may fall and everyone may become elevated. But we have to take his present situation, what he is at present.

Father Tanner: But couldn't it be the difference between appearance and reality?

Prabhupāda: This is reality. If at the present moment he is free from all sinful activities, that is reality. In future, everyone is susceptible to fall down. If he does not carry the principles strictly that proneness is there. But that is not consideration. What he is at present, that is consideration.

Room Conversation with Lord Brockway -- July 23, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Now, you kick them on their face. Oh, what is this? This is not sweet-rice. It is some...?

Haṁsadūta: Cuddy.

Prabhupāda: Cuddy, cuddy.

Haṁsadūta: They always argue that "In India they should kill the cows and eat them, and then they would not starve" because they're so foolish.

Prabhupāda: You have got your natural teeth? Your teeth?

Lord Brockway: No, not natural.

Prabhupāda: Not natural.

Lord Brockway: No, no. I used to play rugby football.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Lord Brockway: And my teeth got kicked out of my mouth. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: He was a great athlete when he was young, a famous athlete.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Room Conversation with Anna Conan Doyle, daughter-in-law of famous author, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Even the father, mother is not crying. The mother's baby dies. She cries, she becomes mad. But when the child gives up that childhood body, accept another body, she's happy because she knows: "My son is there. He has only changed the body." The mother knows. Mother is not crying: "Oh, where is my child gone, sir?" He knows that "My child is here. He has changed his body." These are the arguments. If the foolish rascal will not accept genuine arguments, logic, then how he can be convinced? He's a animal. The animals cannot be convinced. Any man with little brain substance, he'll understand this. Where is the difficulty? But it is useless to talk with animals. You cannot argue with dogs and hogs. That is not possible. So if their brain is doggish and hoggish, how you can convince them? But the logic is there, the argument is there.

Room Conversation with Anna Conan Doyle, daughter-in-law of famous author, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Why it is painful. That is painful. You, even if you think, shudder, that "I have to die immediately," you'll shudder immediately. It is very painful. It is very painful because as soon as you die, you are again packed up within the womb of the mother to develop another body. And that is also not certain. Nowadays the father, mother is killing the child. So even if you develop a body to come with the expectation to come out, the father, mother kills you, again you have to enter another mother's body. Again you may be killed. This is the position of the sinful man. Because a man is sinful, he shudders. "Oh, again death is coming." So you, you cannot argue... Death is very painful. It is so painful that at the last stage, because the pain is not tolerated, the soul immediately gives up the body. Just like a man commits suicide. It is very painful. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha (BG 13.9). It is painful. Duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. Anudarśanam means if he's a foolish, if he cannot understand, then he should understand described by higher authorities. It is painful. So unless you make a solution that no more birth, there is no question of getting out of the painful condition of material condition. That's not possible.

Room Conversation -- September 1, 1973, London:

Śrutakīrti: Mayādhyakṣeṇa...

Prabhupāda: Oh.

mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
sūyate sa-carācaram
hetunānena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
(BG 9.10)

The Bhagavad-gītā is the perfect information of everything. One has to study carefully, that's all. It is perfect information. And you can accept it with your good logic. Not that blindly you accept. Now just like Kṛṣṇa says: "The material elements are My energy." Now you can consider, you can argue, you can make argument, you'll come to the conclusion. Just like material elements, water, the vast water. The ocean, Atlantic Ocean, vast water. So it is created by God's energy. How can you explain with your argument? Because it is said there, Kṛṣṇa says, that "This is My energy." Now, if you accept it, it is all right. But if you have got hesitation, what is your reason?

Guest: Because one man says one thing and one man says another thing. So many people have different things to say.

Prabhupāda: No, personally. Suppose I ask you. What is your, you want to ask me?

Haṁsadūta: You have, that letter has a return address from Maṇḍalībhadra?

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is here. Now the water... Just like from your body, water is produced, is it not?

Guest: Transformed?

Prabhupāda: Transformed or whatever, but you see urine is coming, perspiration is coming. So these different waters are produced by your energy within the body. So why not from God's energy the vast water?

Guest: Yes, truly.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That is our Vedic evidence. Whenever we speak something, immediately quote from Vedas. This is our process. If it is accepted by the Vedic process, then it is perfect. Just like in the law court. You are lawyer. You are arguing. When you quote from a judgement, previous judgement, it is accepted. Similarly, when you give authoritative statement support of your talking, then it is perfect. That is the way. Otherwise, what for these books are there? If it is mental speculation what is the use of these books? But as soon as we speak something, we immediately support by quoting from Vedic literature. And that is perfect. And now you have to possess little knowledge. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, how Kṛṣṇa is perfect. Kṛṣṇa is giving example side, by side. Yathā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, as there is the soul, there is the soul, asmin dehe, and he's having different types of bodies, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. He's changing body from childhood, boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, youth-hood to another state. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Where is the illogical presentation? This is scientific. For an intelligent man, this is scientific. And if he's still dull-headed, then what can be done? Kṛṣṇa gives example. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. As the soul is changing body, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, like that. Similarly, after finishing this body, it may be invisible to you, but the subtle body is there. We have got two kinds of bodies. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca (BG 7.4). This material, eight kinds of materials—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego. So when your body of earth, water, fire, air... Now in the... Now here is a medical man. He knows about this body made of earth, water, fire, air. But he does not know, perhaps, the body made of mind, intelligence and ego.

Room Conversation -- September 18, 1973, Bombay:

Acyutānanda: Well, like sometimes the devotees are preaching, but they get feelings of getting entangled, so they want to...

Prabhupāda: That means it is not yet perfect preacher. He requires perfection.

Acyutānanda: So they argue with me or some other...

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of arguing.

Acyutānanda: No, they say, "Well, I want to fix myself up," and we want them to preach.

Prabhupāda: Preaching is our only business, preaching. Whatever we do, it is aimed at preaching. Namaskāra. (break) That is our business. Whatever we are doing, it is for preaching. (break) In, in the practice, or in the engagement of preaching, their position is better than those who are worshiping the Lord in a secluded place, bhajanānandī.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you also prefer this country's, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes, sincerely. Therefore I went to your country, to start this movement.

Banker: So many people in this country have argued with me and have told me that... They haven't been out of India, but they have told me that their country is better.

Prabhupāda: Indians?

Banker: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say their country is better, but I don't think...

Banker: And they never left India. I don't know how they make this comparison. They say they have happiness here and we have wealth, and because of our wealth we are unhappy people.

Prabhupāda: The Americans say?

Banker: No, no, that is what they say here. Especially in my bank. Our clerks are the top five per cent of the nation's income earners, five thousand rupees or more a year, near the top five percent. But they still say that they're poor and happy. But then once a year they forget that when they ask us for more money. I don't understand it. Contradictory philosophy.

Prabhupāda: There are two things. One material, one spiritual. Spiritually, India is happy, those who are actually spiritualists. But materially, India is unhappy. Spiritually, even if you still go in the interior of village, poor man, living in a cottage, he is taking bath three times and doing his professional work, a cultivator, having little food, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. They are happy actually. They have got their family, husband, wife, some children. If one lives spiritual life, he is actually happy. Materially, nobody can be happy. In your country, although there is enough facility for material enjoyment, actually they are not happy. Otherwise why in your country the hippies are coming out? They are coming from respectable, rich parents, nation, but they have given up their home, their father's opulence, mother's opulence. That I have seen practically.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: He also knows. Why this disappointment?

Banker: We have had a long history of debate in America over wealth. We have had one group, the fundamentalist Protestants, who argue that... Most of them are poor, and they feel very guilty if they have money. And then you have another group of Protestants, the Gospel of Wealth Protestants, who say that if you are truly holy, then it is better that the money be entrusted to your hands than to a man who is unholy. And then you have still another group that regards money as an end in itself, rather than a means to, committing you to do other things, And this confuses people in America. Your parents will be one thing, you'll be another. In my case, my mother is a Gospel of Poverty person. Blessed are the poor. She thinks you won't get into heaven unless you are poor. And I'm in the Gospel of Wealth category. (laughter) And you just select your own philosophy along the way. Carnegie was in that philosophy. He even wrote a book about it a one hundred years ago. The steel Carnegie, Carnegie steel.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Carnegie's name I know.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: He's imperfect. Our movement is perfect. But he becomes imperfect by his misuse of independence. He thinks that "This is nice," and goes to hell. What can be done? That independence is there. That is perfectness.

Hṛdayānanda: So in other words, these, uh, the people that argue like that, they, they actually are lazy. They don't want to surrender to God. Then they blame God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they have become imperfect, therefore they are blaming God. "God is good;" they forget this. That is their imperfectness. One side, they say, "God is good." Still, they're blaming God. What is this nonsense? If He's God, God is good, how can you blame Him? God is good; in all circumstances, He's good. That is the meaning of good. Good does not mean that one time you are good and next time you are bad.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Then you are discredited. Who follows your version? If you discredit others' version, who follows your version? Who are you? If you don't accept other authority, and who is going to accept your authority? Why shall I? You cannot become authority, that "I don't accept any authority." I have to follow that? Then you become authority.

Sudāmā: They also argue, though, that...

Prabhupāda: No, first of all, understand. If he says that "I don't accept any authority," that means he becomes authority. I have to follow him.

Hṛdayānanda: Then they say it's a, it's just like a stand-off then.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: That... Then they say "Well, it's a stand-off, that I say I'm right and that you say you are right. So it cannot be..."

Prabhupāda: But that, therefore there is confusion. The world position is like that. Now it is confusion.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So these rascals, how do they claim Christian? Eh? What do you think? They're not even category, in the category of dogs, cats, and they're claiming that "We are follower of Lord Jesus Christ."

Sudāmā: But they also argue, Prabhupāda, that that law, "Thou shalt not kill," "I am not killing. The others are killing. But I am not."

Prabhupāda: Just see. Is that very good argument? "I am not killing."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he's eating.

Prabhupāda: "I am not killing the snake. My stick is killing." Is that very good argument? (laughter) These rascals, all these rascals, they avoid. "I am not killing. I am not responsible. My, my, this stick has killed." Just see. If you go to the court: "Sir, I have not killed, my stick has killed." Just see how rascal they are.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Umāpati: And eat them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is all rascals.

Hṛdayānanda: Then they will argue that we are, we are killing plants and grains, things like that.

Prabhupāda: We are not killing anything. We are not killing anything. We devotees, we don't kill anything. Do you know that, or not? We don't kill anything.

Hṛdayānanda: They'll say we eat vegetables, they will say.

Prabhupāda: No vegetables, we don't kill. We don't kill.

Umāpati: Well, vegetables are living entities also?

Prabhupāda: Yes, but we don't kill them. We take their fruits and flowers. That does not mean it is killed. And that also we take it for Kṛṣṇa. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). So if there is any responsibility, that is Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. I am not, I am not responsible.

Hṛdayānanda: Ah, I see.

Morning Walk -- December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

Hṛdayānanda: Sometimes they argue that "God has revealed Himself within my heart, so I don't need to read any books because I have a special connection with God."

Prabhupāda: But your revelation and my revelation different. Why?

Hṛdayānanda: "Because God has so many different aspects that He reveals a different aspect to everyone."

Prabhupāda: That is their argument. Then what is the standard of that aspect? Just like in the material world we see, somebody richer than others. This is also aspect of material situation. So if one is millionaire, he is better than a person who has got a few coins. So similarly, your realization of God and my realization of God, different. So I may be greater realized than you. What do you say, theologian?

Prajāpati: Well, today, Prabhupāda most of the literature is written on subjects of death of God, an eclipse of God, the fact that the people in general, it's a secular society and no one is even discussing God.

Prabhupāda: That means they have failed. After discussing when they could not find out actually what is God, they have given up the idea. Failure.

Morning Walk -- December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is that goodness. They have no knowledge what is the standard of goodness. Somebody is cutting the throat; he's also good. And somebody is very sober; he is also good. So what is the standard of goodness?

Karandhara: That's what they argue about, write books on. Mostly they make vague references and emotional pleas for goodness and honesty.

Prabhupāda: No, what is that honesty and what is that goodness? They must give some definition.

Prajāpati: You've summed it up very nicely, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you call them just jugglers of words.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is scientist? Svarūpa Dāmodara?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Here Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So, what is the standard of goodness according to your scientific view?

Hṛdayānanda: They say, "Just don't... If someone does what he likes and doesn't hurt anyone else, that's good."

Karandhara: They don't do that.

Hṛdayānanda: "If I just do my thing for God but I don't hurt anyone, that's good."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have no definition for standard of goodness.

Prabhupāda: No. No, no many times they...

Hṛdayānanda: Many times they say that...

Prabhupāda: They have no standard. But we have got definition of God. That is the difference. What is our definition?

Satsvarūpa: Supreme controller.

Prajāpati: That person who is complete with all six opulences...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- December 10, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: But he has got so many difficulties because he's diseased rascal. So he has to be treated. But his only fault is that he doesn't want to be treated. He's a diseased person, but he doesn't want to be treated. When he's treated, he'll understand. But he doesn't agree to be treated. That is his fault. A tuberculous patient, he doesn't want to be treated, but if he's treated, he can be brought into healthy state. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is treating all these rascals and fools because all of them are born rascals. This is our judgement. Not... śāstra's judgement. Abodha-jāta. Jāta means born. Born rascals. Everyone is a born rascal unless he's Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our... Our propaganda should be like that. We can call anyone rascal and fool if he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious. So what is the value of rascals and fools? He may say something. He may say something. Just like a madman. He may speak so many things. But who values his word? Everyone knows that he... A child, he speaks so many things. Who cares for it? Similarly we must know, anyone who's not Kṛṣṇa, he's a madman. He's empowered by this illusory energy. He talks all nonsense. So ours should be that "If you want to understand, then you come to this position. Then you'll understand. You must be educated." Your belief and not belief or acceptance, who cares for them? Now, this sky is there. Everyone has seen. The experienced man says, "Now, this side is sun." And if somebody says, "Why not this side?" So who cares for this version? You rascal, you may say like that, but it is a fact, this side is sun. One who knows, he can say. One who does not know, he'll argue, "Why not this side? Why you are so bigot that the sun is coming from this side? It may come this side also." This is all nonsense.

Morning Walk -- December 19, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: They do not supply prasādam, these rascals? (break) Everyone can see. So if Guru Maharaji is light, then why everybody does not follow? If he is light, light can be seen by everyone. Just like sunlight, moonlight, we can see. Everyone can see.

Hṛdayānanda: They argue that he only will reveal himself to those who surrender to him.

Prabhupāda: But those who have surrendered, they cannot speak anything. They are in darkness. When we talk with your disciple who has surrendered, they cannot argue with us. They are in darkness. So what kind of light he has seen?

Jayatīrtha: It is all just sentimental.

Prajāpati: Many of these bogus groups, Prabhupāda, they claim that God is simply sound and light. So their meditation means seeing what they call ājñā-cakra, or point between eyebrows. They see there and they hear sounds, bells and thunder and flute all within. And that is their meditation. Hearing these sounds and see these lights.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but what do you gain by that?

Prajāpati: Supposedly they go to higher levels of existence, higher levels of consciousness. They change the sound and the colors change...

Prabhupāda: But you cannot give up even smoking. You are in higher level of consciousness? So what is the proof that you are on the higher level of the consciousness? You cannot give up even ordinary things.

Morning Walk -- December 19, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So happier, they are becoming happier in so many other ways. What is the use of seeing the light?

Jayatīrtha: The pigs are also happy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't waste time by arguing with him. Neglect them. Do not talk of them.

Hṛdayānanda: Just like you say, Prabhupāda, they are actually defeating themselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Prajāpati: The scientists are much more formidable demons.

Prabhupāda: Not formidable. They can easily conquered.

Hṛdayānanda: I have heard that Amarendra is defeating them in Gainesville. He goes to scientific meetings and he defeats them. And the devotees go in the audience, and they cheer, and he defeats them.

Prabhupāda: That's right. (break)

Prajāpati: Is it sometimes cold in the spiritual world?

Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) You don't like to go there?

Prajāpati: Oh yes, I like to go there. Actually, I would rather be here in the cold with you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, than be in the warm without you.

Prabhupāda: We get the information from Bhagavad-gītā. It is said, na tad bhāsayate sūryaḥ. There is no need of sunshine. So how it can be cold? Sunshine is required where it is cold, but there is no need of sunshine. Naturally, the conclusion should be it is neither cold neither hot. It is enjoyable. Cold, heat, all troubles, they are in the material world. The spiritual world is simply blissful life, enjoying. (break) As soon as the light is there, the darkness is gone. So why in the night there is darkness if he is light? Why in the night meeting these rascals require other light, electric light, if he is light? What kind of light he is? If he is light, at least they could save the expenditure of electric lights. But why does he use electric light?

Prajāpati: He says he only sees light when he closes his eyes.

Morning Walk -- December 30, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: This Subhash Chandra Bose. And he organized the INA, Indian National Army. So when this Indian National Army was organized and the Britishers... They were great politicians. They saw, "Now the army is going to national movement. We cannot be." Then they left. Because it was not possible. They were maintaining British Empire with Indian money, Indian men. You see? They did not conquer by their British soldiers all round the Far East, Burma and the Mesopotamia, and the Egypt. That was Indian army, the Sikh soldiers and the Gurkha soldiers, and Indian money. On the pretext that "For Indian protection, we are maintaining this army." Actually, they were expanding their empire. Africa, Burma. And when they saw that "India is lost," voluntarily they liquidated all others. Went back... Back to home, back to Godhead. (devotees laugh) So in politics this is nonsense, non-violence. It is nonsense, cowardism. In politics in sweet words you cannot get. There must be fight, arms. That is army. "If you don't agree, then fist." That is politics. There must be violence. Otherwise you cannot control. When there is educated good men, then you can argue. But when people are ruffians, there is no question of good... Argumentum vaculum, I told you the other day... (break) ...in the beginning of creation, the fight between the demons and the demigods, devāsura-yuddha. That is always there. In the European history, without revolution, no order changes. Even the Russian Revolution was there. French revolution was there. In England, Cromwell? Cromwell? Cromwell Revolution?

Page Title:Argue (Conversations 1968 - 1973)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, Mayapur
Created:06 of Mar, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=53, Let=0
No. of Quotes:53