Dr. Patel: Yes, sir. That type of stool which goes and manures the crop, that is good, evidently.
Prabhupāda: No, no, after all, stool, this side or that side... The whole conclusion is that unless one is surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he remains in darkness.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupāda: That is the point. Therefore we are trying to enlighten people to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Patel: And a scientist trying to unearth the secret of nature means Kṛṣṇa. He is doing work for Kṛṣṇa, and he cannot be...
Prabhupāda: No, no, everyone has to work for Kṛṣṇa. Just like a prisoner in the prison house. He is also working for government, but he is forced to do it. Then nobody can escape Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: Right, sir. But the scientist is not forced to do it. He freely does it.
Prabhupāda: No, anyone. Why scientist? Even cats and dogs, they are also doing for Kṛṣṇa. You cannot... Nobody can say...
Dr. Patel: But scientist willingly does it to unearth the secret. Don't call him a rascal. The scientist does it.
Prabhupāda: No, I don't say; Kṛṣṇa says.
Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa says those people are rascal who does not believe in Him.
Prabhupāda: So anyway, that is the test. If you don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, you are rascal. That's all. We are simple child, and Kṛṣṇa has said that anyone who has not surrendered, he's a rascal. So we say, "Are you surrendered to Kṛṣṇa?" "No." "You are a rascal." (laughter) No. Our test is very simple.
Dr. Patel: And what do you mean by surrendering, sir?
Prabhupāda: He does not know anything but Kṛṣṇa. He knows everything...
Dr. Patel: Surrendering means by mental process if I do through my mind. This is my definition. My mental process in the...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Dr. Patel: Everything happening is... By Kṛṣṇa's grace he's surrendering to...
Prabhupāda: Not mental. No mental concoction. Factual. Factual.
Dr. Patel: That is factual. That everything is...
Prabhupāda: No, mental concoction is not factual.
Dr. Patel: Sir, but I am... You don't let me speak. I say that everything which is happening, a phenomena, is nothing but by the grace of God or by Kṛṣṇa's own order, and if that...
Prabhupāda: And you have no responsibility.
Dr. Patel: And that mental process, if you are working, is it a wrong mental process?
Prabhupāda: So here is a greatest wrong. No, no. If your patient comes, that "It is by Kṛṣṇa's wish I have become diseased," then where is your department? You don't...
Dr. Patel: But by Kṛṣṇa's grace I have become a doctor. Both the ways. Why see on one side?
Prabhupāda: Then say that. Why do you say one side?
Dr. Patel: Of course, everything is by Kṛṣṇa. The man is diseased by Kṛṣṇa, I am produced by Kṛṣṇa, I'll care by Kṛṣṇa this, that man, and that man dies, he will die by Kṛṣṇa's grace.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Dr. Patel: Then that is Kṛṣṇa's grace.
Prabhupāda: Then that is all right.
Dr. Patel: That is what I have been saying.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: I think I am not wrong. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: No, when in everything you see Kṛṣṇa, that is the highest stage. That is the highest stage.