Dr. Patel: These, all these analogies are nirdeśas. Nothing can explain or nothing can describe Brahman, beyond the reach of the mind and the tongue and the all the intelligence of a man.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Therefore tad viddhi praṇi... upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. The tattva-darśī can.
Guest (1): Tattva-darśī can only do it.
Prabhupāda: One who is blind, one who is blind, one who is blind, he cannot.
Dr. Patel: That's right. What about the...
Prabhupāda: You cannot... You do not go to a blind man. Therefore it is said, tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). Where you shall surrender? You are blind. If you surrender to a blind man, what is the benefit?
Dr. Patel: Who surrenders there, you also surrender. Not the body...
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, try to understand. You can surrender to a person when you think that "This person is..."
Guest (1): Good.
Prabhupāda: "...better than me."
Guest (1): He has realized it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru. Guru means he is heavier than you.
Guest (1): Heavier. Correct, correct.
Prabhupāda: So otherwise, where is the question of surrender? Nobody wants to surrender.
Dr. Patel: But the heavier, everyone...
Prabhupāda: Heavier means in knowledge.
Dr. Patel: According to the law of Newton also, heavy articles attract the light articles. You are heavier...
Prabhupāda: No, Newton was a rascal. You know Newton was a rascal?
Dr. Patel: I am also one. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Newton was a rascal. He made two holes in the door. And one friend came, "Why you have made these two holes in your door?" He said, "There are two cats, bigger and the smaller. So let them go out." So he asked, "With the bigger hole the smaller cannot go?" "Yes, yes. You are right." (laughter) Any conditioned soul, he may be Newton or this or that, they are all rascals.
Dr. Patel: No, but some of the highest... I mean...
Prabhupāda: No, nobody is highest. Because everyone, everyone is in ignorance.
Dr. Patel: Ignorance is right, but...
Prabhupāda: Therefore rascals!
Dr. Patel: Though their knowledge is ignorance, it is that, Brahman knowledge is right.
Prabhupāda: So therefore you have to... Therefore the indication is tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā... (BG 4.34). You should go and take knowledge.
Dr. Patel: But I talk of the Einstein. Einstein, somebody asked Einstein...
Prabhupāda: Anyone...
Dr. Patel: "Do you believe in God?" He said, "How can you not believe in God? God is everywhere, and I feel the presence of it." That is the real scientist.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Not the other fellows who say there is no God and all these things are atoms and all...
Prabhupāda: But still, he does not know that Kṛṣṇa is God.
Dr. Patel: That is... That is...
Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. That is ignorance.
Dr. Patel: ...ignorance of God! That means there will be a quarrel between us two.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is ignorance. Mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15).
Dr. Patel: Sir...,
Prabhupāda: As soon as he does not know Kṛṣṇa, he is ignorant. Therefore it will take time. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). When actually he becomes a man in knowledge, then he surrenders. So so long one does not know Kṛṣṇa, he's a fool. And that is our definition. Now, Mr. Sar(?), I am right or wrong?
Guest (1): You are right, Sir. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Now, even though you may not be right, he will say right because he's very much frightened of your calling him a... What do you call me?
Prabhupāda: A mūḍha. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Well, I'm a vagabond type of man, thick-skinned. You may call me anything. I don't mind. You see? (Prabhupāda laughs)